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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Hazard lead exca team consisting of exca/pdon/ho-oh/ekiller/xern/mence is rly simple and has had great success for me. I find sand to still have niche use in tour games, although both ttar/exca/dragceus/hooh/ferro/mence and ttar/exca/msab/waterceus/latios/hooh have some problems with xern.

It makes exca at least b+ for me.

Yveltal doesnt have "amazing versatility" lol. At best it trades 1-1, at worst it switched into a lava plume/twave and gets owned. We just dropped the mon, you can find more reasoning in other posts.
 
I was going to respond last night, but I stop functioning more and more every hour after 9 P.M, and you really don't want to see 1:30 A.M Krauersaut posts.

Anyway - completely agree with Hack regarding Excadrill, and would like to elaborate.

Sand, although very difficult to stray from the 'standard' build, is still quite viable in ORAS. If anything, ORAS improved Tyranitar's niche from XY by giving it new mons to check (Lati@s, Salamence, rise in popularity of Yveltal/Darkrai, birdspam, etc), and Excadrill is a staple on these standard sand builds for good reason. It offers not only hazard control, but can run Air Balloon to check Primal Groudon, and is a complete and absolute full-stop to the Pokemon that, as Outrage put it, "defines balance", Klefki.

Outside of Sand, Exca's other option is to run the lead set (which I, of course, love to bits and pieces, but will try to avoid too much bias in talking about it). Focus Sash w/ Stealth Rock, Toxic and Rapid Spin are mandatory, no questions about that. The last will most commonly go to Earthquake, but if your team struggles with Xerneas and it can set up on Excadrill's kinda weak Earthquake, then you'd run Iron Head. It has the incredible niche of being a non PDon/Dialga Stealth Rocker that gets hazards on both Sableye and Diancie, and it has just enough speed to outrun physdef Supportceus and either cripple it with Toxic or chip it with EQ/Iron Head to be immediately smacked by another teammate. You don't have to lead with it, either - if you can see a mon on the opposing team that gives it trouble (of which there are few - the only ones I can think of at the moment are Darkrai, Mewtwo and Salamence), you can save it and its sash to be an emergency check to PDon, or to get status on EKiller, etc. etc. On teams not featuring the opposing mons, you're more or less guaranteed to get up rocks (which is so especially pivotal in ORAS Ubers), and maybe keep them off of your side too.

I believe that, as far as B+ goes, the rankings should be:

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    - It is the most commonly seen mon out of these here, and for good reason. Although weary of Thunder Wave and/or Rock moves (like 99% of PDon checks), it can function as a soft check to Primal Groudon. Its versatility is impressive even for Ubers, and has a cool niches in its ability to check Psychics/Ghosts and revenge kill weakened threats with ease, thanks to the strongest unboosted priority in the game.
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    - Though I'd argue it's one of the (if not the most) shakiest Mence checks, there's no doubt that Dialga is one of the better alternative rockers in the tier. It role compresses heavily by blanket soft checking several threats in Ubers (Primal Kyogre, Mewtwo, Giratina-O, Salamence to name a few), and isn't lacking in the offensive presence department either. It has the movepool and stats to fit on several viable builds in ORAS Ubers.
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    - Skarmory is one of my favorite mons in ORAS, and I've been quoted before calling it "a Lugia for bulky offense". Its typing and stats are just so fantastic, and it getting Spikes and Whirlwind are just the cherry on top. It can run both PhysDef and SpDef sets and pull them off with aplomb - the only thing stopping it from being above Dialga and maybe even Yveltal is that a) Sableye-Mega cockblocks it and b) last mon Refresh Mence (which is rising in popularity again) still beats it. Other than that, though, Skarm is one of the most potent defensive mons in the metagame.
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    - All reasons listed above.
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    - All reasons listed above - only listed below Tyranitar by virtue of Tyranitar's ability to fit on more builds viably.
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    - I personally love Shaymin-Sky - it's unexplored as a great mon in the meta. It has a cool niche on TSpikes for obvious reasons, and it's also a last ditch Arceus-Ground answer. The grass typing allows it to (extremely softly) check Primal Kyogre, which is worth mentioning just because it's such an offensive presence that any viable defensive niche is worth mentioning. I personally particularly enjoy the SubSeed set, which many teams simply can't handle. It's too bad, though, that the Stealth Rock weakness and prone-ness to revenge killing dampen its effectiveness, because other than that, this mon rips through many common builds in ORAS.
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    - I realize that it seems like Mewtwo is ranked rather low on this list, but people need to understand a) how shaky of a Darkrai check it is and b) how hard it is to fit on a good team. Its typing gives it absolutely no defensive niche, and its offensive stats, while stellar, really aren't enough to compensate for the aforementioned. It can't break through what it's supposed to, it can't set up Calm Mind, and it can't get Para'd or else it's useless, and in a metagame where Thunder Wave is only surpassed by Stealth Rocks in terms of commonness of use, you can't have that.
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    - Kanga clocks in at the bottom of B+ for me, simply because it can't do everything it has to. If you run Power-Up Punch, you forgo its ability to check things with Fake Out, and if you run Fake Out, you're walled by like, everything, lol. It has a few cool niche sets that people like Shrang and Steel and even Hack (lol Sing Mega-Kangaskhan) seem to be exploring, but until I see one of them really put in work, I don't think it has the firepower to function well enough in ORAS Ubers to justify it getting the mega slot.
 
Kanga at the bottom of the list is just insulting when it's like.. really good. It's a mon that offers more defensive synergy than other offense mons in the rank (looking at you, mewtwo and skymin) because fake out+sucker is great for revenging things and it works out especially well when you have shaky checks to a certain set_up sweeper or your main way to 'check' them is to damage them. There's just so little that can switch into this mon that isn't water arceus or ghost arceus, but water arceus without wisp/judgement still loses to pup sets (those are really good btw!) and arceus ghost can't switch in on crunches. Things like klefki get murdered by eq, and this is also how it deals with pdon hoping to tank a hit. The fact that timid latios is uncommon/also not that good means you can freely return and it's also not safe from sets without sucker. Like I said it excells vs things that are hard to check like m2/mm2 and darkrai and +2 ray and stuffs. Hard mon to deal with, easier to fit on teams than a few other b+ mons and probably on par with most of them. It's also pretty nice on tspikes offense imo!

Idek why krau's suggesting forgoing fake out, and it yeah it does get checked by ghost types __I guess__ but at the same time... gira-o can only switch in on crunch once and gengar dies to it, and can't kill sucker sets (in most cases, that is, but uhh if you're pup you can't do much back, but other sets will always win unless it's wisp/hex or psong/protect/winning a 5050) and you pressure arceus ghost to recover or wisp (recover) so you get a free switch to pdon or your arceus ghost check which can be a little less soft than without kangas (though you will need a good one when using pup of course).

Ttar makes sand possible but I'd say put it above skymin/mm2y/ttar (not respectively) which pains me because I like it a lot. Yveltal is also pretty bad, if it didn't check arceus ghost no one would probably be using it .-.
 
It's a mon that offers more defensive synergy than other offense mons in the rank (looking at you, mewtwo and skymin) because fake out+sucker is great for revenging things and it works out especially well when you have shaky checks to a certain set_up sweeper or your main way to 'check' them is to damage them.

You and I have different definitions of 'defensive synergy' - yes, it can emergency revenge kill things that you might not be able to otherwise handle, but that doesn't give your team any semblance of a switch-in or real, reliable answer.

There's just so little that can switch into this mon that isn't water arceus or ghost arceus, but water arceus without wisp/judgement still loses to pup sets (those are really good btw!) and arceus ghost can't switch in on crunches.

Ok... I mean... Giratina-O, Ghostceus, Sableye-Mega, Ferrothorn, Lugia, Skarmory, Groudon, Lando-T and Bronzong... not to mention that Ghostceus CAN switch in on one Crunch, and from there you go into a series of 50/50s...

Idek why krau's suggesting forgoing fake out, and it yeah it does get checked by ghost types __I guess__ but at the same time... gira-o can only switch in on crunch once and gengar dies to it, and can't kill sucker sets (in most cases, that is, but uhh if you're pup you can't do much back, but other sets will always win unless it's wisp/hex or psong/protect/winning a 5050) and you pressure arceus ghost to recover or wisp (recover) so you get a free switch to pdon or your arceus ghost check which can be a little less soft than without kangas (though you will need a good one when using pup of course).r (not respectively) which pains me because I like it a lot. Yveltal is also pretty bad, if it didn't check arceus ghost no one would probably be using it .-.

Are you suggesting PuP + Fake Out Mega Kangaskhan? Because if you are, I'm not sure how great your grasp on the metagame is - Kanga's already got nuts 4MSS as it is, compounding it further chip damage in exchange for absolutely needed coverage is suboptimal af. Wisp Gengar is rising in popularity, and Protect sets can scout and send you into a series of, guess what? More 50/50s!

I absolutely think you're overhyping Kangaskhan - in contrast with the other mons in its viability ranking, it's definitely the runt of the pack. Can you say with confidence that it is objectively better and more viable than any of the other Pokemon listed with it?
 
"You and I have different definitions of 'defensive synergy' - yes, it can emergency revenge kill things that you might not be able to otherwise handle, but that doesn't give your team any semblance of a switch-in or real, reliable answer."

Well, I guess? Something with defensive synergy to me is something that helps the team out defensively; the something doesn't always have to switch in directly to do that.
"
Ok... I mean... Giratina-O, Ghostceus, Sableye-Mega, Ferrothorn, Lugia, Skarmory, Groudon, Lando-T and Bronzong... not to mention that Ghostceus CAN switch in on one Crunch, and from there you go into a series of 50/50s..."

Yeah I forgot like a whole bunch of stuff whoops.. But.. groudon is bad, ferrothorn is very uncommon and mediocre. I'm sure there's some builds on works on, I remember dice making one with arceus dragon, but I haven't seen too many of them and this is the general consensus from what I can tell. Sab hard walls of course, heh, and so does skarm. Oh no something in b+ has counters D:

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 225-267 (66.7 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 204-240 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed with 1 sr switch, same goes for bulky spreads up to a certain (realistic) point)
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 219-258 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Zonger dies, gira-o dies, arceus ghost HAS to recover (so, no 50/50) or else it dies on next switch-in. This is all jolly if you hadn't noticed which is especially relevant for the ghosteus calc... Lando is REALLY niche but I guess it does well vs it, I'm not going to consider it though. I'm sure you remember the fact that lugia is easy to beat with repeated crunches from spl as well! I don't know about wisp gar being more common but I'll gladly believe you there, I guess that beats it since you can't rly stay because shadow tag limiting interesting competition between two players by limiting one's choice where am I even going with this. Also crunch/eq or crunch/sucker is better than pup/sucker for sure, but it's not a bad set and can really dismantle shit. I guess this is sort of me circlejerking it from earlier in oras when it was way better because sab was more common uhhh I just realised that.

Anyway, I'm convinced it should be above mm2y, and ttar if we are judging it by itself and not as a mon that resembles the entire sand archetype which I think is how we should do it because by that logic deo-s would probably need to be in A+ because you're ascribing it qualities of more than 1 pkmn. Should be higher than skymin too, probably, but if people disagree I can easily see why they would.


edit: adamant kangas has a 100% chance to kill max/max msab if it gets two defense drops (on the first two hits, though if you get one on the first one of the first hit, and crunch as again as they are forced to recover and get another one after the first hit, you also kill it the next turn. x%=100%)!

edit2: of course it's not, stall is impossible to break with kangas anyway (between a duo of sab, lugia and waterceus). however you're wrong that sab will click wisp, because if sab is valuable to the team/the best way of dealing with kangas they're forced to recovery so they can't die next time. also check out steel vs donkey if you wanna see crunch kangas prove you wrong, good friend
 
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edit: adamant kangas has a 100% chance to kill max/max msab if it gets two defense drops (on the first two hits, though if you get one on the first one of the first hit, and crunch as again as they are forced to recover and get another one after the first hit, you also kill it the next turn. x%=100%)!

Yes, because you'll magically and reliably get to -2 defense with crunch. And there's also this thing called will-o-wisp which sableye often carries.
 
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Mega Kangaskhan is decent in this meta, but I find it a bit hard to justify sometimes. The main reason you'd use it is for Fake Out chip damage, but it just seems to fall short of being worth the mega slot in a lot of cases. I wouldn't really use it much on balance since it doesn't really check much, just gets damage on some stuff and can switch out or die sometimes which isn't useful defensively for balance. It raises up a team's matchup against offense on the whole, but doesn't really deal with specific threats thoroughly enough in my experience. Also offensive teams with Ghost-types (say bulky offense with Gira-O or Ghostceus) can force you into bad positions with Mega Kangaskhan because they just get free switches when you're forced to Fake Out a sweeper or something. On offense I'd much rather just run Ekiller or even Rayquaza for priority and run a better Mega, such as Mega Salamence. It's limited in what it does against bulky teams because it either has to get lucky with Crunch or have Power-Up Punch and hope the other team doesn't have a Ghost-type. It's easily most justifiable on Toxic Spikes teams where Fake Out has more utility because it gets extra poison damage. Basically the main issue I have with Mega Kangaskhan is that it doesn't really fill enough specific roles so you sort of end up throwing it onto a build last minute if you happen to have room and want a bit of a safety net which isn't great per se.
 
Guess I'll throw my opinion out here -
1.
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Yveltal easily has the highest amount of utility and least opportunity cost among its B+rethen. I honestly think that it should stay in A- but if it stays here it should stay ranked above all of B+. Yveltal can be adjusted to meet a team's needs pretty efficiently, with it being able to run its offensive set, which on paper is a huge threat to balance which usually lack something that resists both Flying and boosted Dark STABs. Its Atk is just as high as SpA base stat-wise, making Knock Off and Sucker Punch an answer to usual switch ins. While it's defensive set is much more niche, it punishes top tier dangerous setup sweepers like Salamence and Ekiller. Dark Aura boosted Sucker Punch also boasts as the most powerful priority in the metagame, securing an above average niche in beating offensive teams. Access to Taunt + Roost give it a nice ability to break Stall while being able to beat out the only thing that threatens the Taunt + Roost combo, Sableye. Hell, I've even tried Substitute which is surprisingly effective due to its massive HP stat. While it's 99 base speed is a pretty good tier for Ubers, sets almost never run max speed due to the need for investment in HP, Attack, and SpA but a lot of <90 Spe threats don't run max speed so I don't think that makes too much of a difference. Seeing as I've been spewing praise at it, I might as well throw some cons out there. Setup fodder for the most threatening sweeper in ther tier, Xerneas is a rather high risk to be adding to any team. The few threats that hit above 100 Spe are massive threats like Darkrai that Yveltal gives a free Dark Void. It also is susceptible to every status aliment, giving Klefki teams free Spikes/Toxic without Heat Wave which is kind of a bad option imo. It also fails to get a lot of 2HKOs on big threats like several non Ghost Arceus forms and Primal Ogre, which I think is only held back by the abundance of Groudon in this metagame. Other than that, nothing really is especially bad about Yveltal, besides being better on paper than it usually is in practice, but even then not terribly so. Either way, it clearly has less opportunity cost and is less niche than any other pokemon in B+.

2.
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Dialga is the next most consistent out of the bunch here. It provides an alternative method of Stealth Rocks that you don't have to slap on PDon and has its SpD spread which is a pretty decent secondary switch in to Kyogre. It also has a plethora of coverage moves it can use as a pretty good lure to certain top threats. Stone Edge with only a bit of attack investment (about 60 with neutral nature) OHKOs Ho-ohs, which are usually enticed to switch in on a Dialga, especially after a Draco Meteor drop. Draco + Shuca Berry makes it safe to beat Salamence 1v1, although switching in isn't a guarantee. Dragon/Steel is a pretty unique and decent defensive typing. Not too much to say about it; Dialga has an expansive movepool to lure many of ORAS's top threats and with that I think that's good enough to justify its use and standing at the top of B+.

3.
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Skymin sits here because it has great potential as a wallbreaker due to the very likely chance that a 140 base power STAB Seed Flare will instantly halve a targets SpDef. Grass is a pretty good offensive typing especially in a metagame dominated by Primals and lack of good grass resists besides Ho-oh. The SubSeed set is also pretty cool, its very good at getting off chip damage and plus like what's stall's counter for it lol. it also sits at a great speed tier, 127 is above 90% of the metagame besides Mewtwo forms and already evolved MegaGar and the few scarf threats. The only bad thing about it it that it contributes absolutely no defensive synergy to your team, only having a resist to fighting, grass, ground immunity and water which the latter doesn't exactly let you switch into Primals or Ground/Waterceus. Paired with lackluster defensive stats (besides the 100 HP but even then). Despite the ez SpD drops with Seed Flare, it misses out on a lot of common OHKOs it needs to get to not just die. Imo it works best when paired with lots of hazards to increase its OHKO capabilities. Momentum grabbing moves are also very useful for it for Skymin to get in without damage, but U-turn and Volt Switch are pretty uncommon among threats in the tier. But how bad can it be when you can luck everything anyway.

4.
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Skarmory is here because it's a really good mon at doing what it's supposed to do, but unfortunately not much else. It makes a great switch in to non Lava Plume Pdon, Salamence, Ekiller, Groundceus, and gets up Spikes and phazing. Toxic variants also directly threaten fat Arceii and Lugia, while Counter variants can outright kill physical sweepers by surprise. Spikes is beautiful in this metagame and forces your opponent to (likely) Defog or (less likely and spin-blockable) Rapid Spin all the hazards off the field, effectively reducing the pressure on your team as well. Skarmory is good at neutralizing strong physical threats for your team and getting up Spikes for your team. It doesn't check much but it's incredibly effective at the stuff it does stop, Along with Spikes being incredibly useful of course.

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MM2Y is my next pick because of its ability to 1- check Darkrai (offensively) and 2- run pretty much any coverage move your team needs. It hits harder than reg LO Mewtwo, though the opportunity cost of another mega + slightly weaker Mewtwo is usually less than devoting your mega to MM2Y. I think a lot of people discredit Y for being a "shaky" Darkrai check. There isn't exactly a plethora of sturdy Darkrai checks and the fact that Y can stop it from clicking Dark Void and then Nasty Plot is pretty big. It's downfall really is devoting your mega to something with such poor defensive typing- Psychic typing with no defense investment isn't going to be switching comfortably into literally any of the top threats. Even so, 106 / 70 / 120 Defenses isn't bad (on the special side) and can usually switch into a few non boosted neutral moves (and it even gets Recover lol). It's lack of useful resists is what really holds it back. Even with the monstrous offensive capability, many top threats carry offensive power so high that its high HP and SpD are rendered almost useless. It excels against passive teams however; there's nearly no safe counters to it besides MSableye, which doesn't exactly want to switch in on 194 SpA when the threats it checks force it to run 252 HP/ 252 Def. Taunt, Wisp, and T-wave are also some nice examples of utility it can use when it forces switches. Unless you're basing your team with Mega Mewtwo, it doesn't really find a good spot on teams due to no defensive value and the cost of using MM2Y is higher than say MMence + LO Mewtwo, which will allow your team to develop more versatility, and then if you choose Y then you kinda end up limiting your teambuilding.

6.
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Tyranitar is a staple for stall to control the damage that Mega Gengar could cause. However, I feel outside of this, no one ever thinks "oh wow TTar would be a perfect rocker for my team". It checks Ho-oh like once and then gets burned and can't stop it after that. Being able to stop Gengar is huge, but it gets up rocks and dies in a lot of other situations. The RestTalk set is an option but it usually is even more passive and the rocks have to be designated to something else. It fits great on fat teams that get decimated by Gengar otherwise. It also of course has a nice role in providing sand for Excadrill. Sand isn't exactly unviable due to Excadrill 2HKOing the Primals that would seek to change the weather.

7.
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Excadrill is only slightly lower than TTar due to sand. However, other than that, it's in no way a staple to any playstyle and needs TTar for sand. It has a small niche as a guaranteed Stealth Rocker with Mold Breaker but there's usually much more effiecient mons to use that can get rocks up. Also outspeeding GeoXern under sand its certanly not bad, just fitting on only one playstyle is kind of limiting figuring that the weather in ORAS Ubers changes to Sun a lot.

8.
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I think a lot of people are in consensus that Mega Kang is the lowest among the B+ ranks. Toxic Spikes teams like Kangaskhan to rack up chip damage with its good priorities in Fake Out and Sucker Punch. Without Toxic Spikes you're probably better off just running Mega Mence as it beats down walls harder, has reliable recovery, stallbreaking abilities, better boosting and not hard walled by Ghostceus.
tldr;
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Yveltal rise back to A-
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Dialga
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Shaymin-Sky
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Skarmory
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Mega Mewtwo Y
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Tyranitar
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Excadrill
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Mega Kangaskhan
 
Here is what I think the order should be.
Yveltal should be A-
Dialga
Shaymin-Sky
Skarmory
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Mewtwo Y
Tyranitar
Ferrothorn should be B+ Rank
Excadrill should be B Rank
I will now explain some of the bigger moves in my list.

Yveltal should be A- because it is powerful. It 2HKOS Pdon for example. It also is a great check for Ghost Types in the tier. It does extremely well against pokemon such as Giratina-O, and Ghostecus. It also has priority in Sucker Punch to revenge kill Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y.

The reason Mega Kangaskhan is so high up in comparison to other people is because I believe it is the most UNDERated pokemon in Ubers. It has access to Body Slam which Mega Evolved gives it a STAB that a 51% of paralyzing an opponent. It can stop an Xern who decides to set up Geo on your right in it tracks. Also Mega Kangaskhan has an extremely diverse move set so you have no idea what it could be running. Is it running PuP, Fake Out, Earthquake, Sucker Punch, Crunch, Ice Punch? Even on it's Main STAB it has 3 viable choices which are Double-Edge, Return, and BODY SLAM. Mega Kangaskhan is horrible on paper but on the battlefield it is extremely clutch. It can dominate at a start of match just my having 1 lucky para or 1 unexpected coverage move and screw over your opponent for the rest of match. Mega Kangakshan does have a bad matchup vs Stall but it dominate against other match-ups pretty well.
Also Mega Kanagskhan has more usage than Toxic Spikes Teams, it is a sweeper if put in the right situations and when your willing to take risks. My team is an example of Mega Kangakhan in action in an important role.

I put Excadrill down to B because it is mostly only used on Sand Teams. The fact that Tyranitar the Sand Starter is only above Excadrill on this list makes it almost necessary for it to drop to B. It can be used for Mold Breaker when not a Sand Team but it does have many uses except damaging Gira-O which is a bad idea and getting double damage on Lugia at first. Excadrill is outclassed as SR user by P-don, Deoxys-S, and Dialga who is also a Steel type and is B+. Even if Excadrill does not drop it shall NEVER be ranked better than Tyranitar in this meta.

On the other hand Ferrothorn will be the pokemon that takes the last spot at B+. Ferrothorn is a nightmare to face at times. It is horror when it checks your +6 Arceus. This pokemon is deadly not because of it's power but how difficult it is take out if it all it's checks are eliminated from battle. Pokemon Such as Pdon, Ho-oh, and most neutral Special Attackers take it down but it wrecks the mostly Physical Metagame with it's ability and it's item Rocky Helmet. I dread this pokemon the most of all pokemon I faced and it is only ranked B at the moment though.
 
Here is what I think the order should be.
Yveltal should be A-
Dialga
Shaymin-Sky
Skarmory
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Mewtwo Y
Tyranitar
Ferrothorn should be B+ Rank
Excadrill should be B Rank
I will now explain some of the bigger moves in my list.

Yveltal should be A- because it is powerful. It 2HKOS Pdon for example. It also is a great check for Ghost Types in the tier. It does extremely well against pokemon such as Giratina-O, and Ghostecus. It also has priority in Sucker Punch to revenge kill Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y.

The reason Mega Kangaskhan is so high up in comparison to other people is because I believe it is the most UNDERated pokemon in Ubers. It has access to Body Slam which Mega Evolved gives it a STAB that a 51% of paralyzing an opponent. It can stop an Xern who decides to set up Geo on your right in it tracks. Also Mega Kangaskhan has an extremely diverse move set so you have no idea what it could be running. Is it running PuP, Fake Out, Earthquake, Sucker Punch, Crunch, Ice Punch? Even on it's Main STAB it has 3 viable choices which are Double-Edge, Return, and BODY SLAM. Mega Kangaskhan is horrible on paper but on the battlefield it is extremely clutch. It can dominate at a start of match just my having 1 lucky para or 1 unexpected coverage move and screw over your opponent for the rest of match. Mega Kangakshan does have a bad matchup vs Stall but it dominate against other match-ups pretty well.
Also Mega Kanagskhan has more usage than Toxic Spikes Teams, it is a sweeper if put in the right situations and when your willing to take risks. My team is an example of Mega Kangakhan in action in an important role.

I put Excadrill down to B because it is mostly only used on Sand Teams. The fact that Tyranitar the Sand Starter is only above Excadrill on this list makes it almost necessary for it to drop to B. It can be used for Mold Breaker when not a Sand Team but it does have many uses except damaging Gira-O which is a bad idea and getting double damage on Lugia at first. Excadrill is outclassed as SR user by P-don, Deoxys-S, and Dialga who is also a Steel type and is B+. Even if Excadrill does not drop it shall NEVER be ranked better than Tyranitar in this meta.

On the other hand Ferrothorn will be the pokemon that takes the last spot at B+. Ferrothorn is a nightmare to face at times. It is horror when it checks your +6 Arceus. This pokemon is deadly not because of it's power but how difficult it is take out if it all it's checks are eliminated from battle. Pokemon Such as Pdon, Ho-oh, and most neutral Special Attackers take it down but it wrecks the mostly Physical Metagame with it's ability and it's item Rocky Helmet. I dread this pokemon the most of all pokemon I faced and it is only ranked B at the moment though.
Re: Yveltal
I don't think Yveltal should be A- purely on merit of "it is powerful". It 2HKOs Primal Groudon- yay? I mean, why is your opponent switching Primal Groudon into Yveltal anyways? Yveltal can't really even switch into Primal Groudon all the time since it takes a ton from Fire moves and Rock moves, while getting crippled by Thunder Wave. It is strong and can wear down its checks in some battles, especially since it sometimes carries Heat Wave for Klefki and Arceus formes are slower now; however, it can be hard to justify on builds because Darkrai is often a more threatening choice for offensive teams. I do like that it checks Ghost-types and Mewtwo formes, and a decent case for A- could be made possibly. I just also think it's just not as threatening in practice as it is on paper because it often struggles to find opportunities to come in safely, while defensive sets sometimes fail to check a lot of the stuff it is supposed to, especially with a Stealth Rock weakness wearing it down.

Re:Mega Kangaskhan
I mean I already talked about this but I'll address your specific argument. You tend to focus only on the positives. Body Slam has a 51% chance to paralyze the target, bus also a 49% chance to not, and yes you can prevent a Xerneas from setting up but you can also lose 2 mons real quick. You trade power for luck, which can be good sometimes, but it is at its core reliant on getting paralysis when you need it. Mega Kangaskhan can run a lot of different moves, but it's not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. It might seem difficult to predict what a Mega Kangaskhan is running, but in practice it is a lot easier to play around. For example, Player 1 brings in Mega Kangaskhan to revenge kill Player 2's Geomancy Xerneas with Fake Out. Player 2 has a Giratina-O in the back, and Mega Kangaskhan has Crunch. However, Mega Kangaskhan is practically forced to Fake Out because Geomancy Xerneas is the more imminent threat (if he mispredicts with Fake Out, Giratina-O comes in for free, but if he mispredicts with Crunch, he loses). Thus, while in theory Crunch enable Mega Kangaskhan to get past Giratina-O on the switch, Giratina-O still comes in and Mega Kangaskhan is forced out. Moving on, you admitted that it is ineffective in a stall matchup, but I don't think it's much more effective in a balance matchup unless the foe lacks a Ghost-type AND you have Power-Up Punch. Against offense I already talked about it a lot but in short it has an overall good matchup vs offense but it doesn't specifically check any particular Pokemon and can be harder to fit on builds.

Re: Excadrill
I don't know. It's less splashable than most but the other B+ mon's aren't that splashable either (e.g. Skymin, Mega Mewtwo Y). The point of Mold Breaker isn't to hit Giratina-O by the way, its to set up Stealth Rock past Magic Bounce Pokemon, hitting Levitate Pokemon is a bonus. I wouldn't rank it higher than Tyranitar, I agree, but I wouldn't drop it.

Re: Ferrothorn
Nah, I think its B. It does check what it's supposed to check, I'll give you that. But it loses to Mega Sableye and Fire-types aren't exactly uncommon. It's not as simple as "oh Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh are gone now!", you oversimplify that in your argument. Basically, your argument is based around opponents being bad and not realizing that their Extreme Killer Arceus can't get past Ferrothorn.
 
Aite its been a week so here's the new list. Any disagreements on the ranks already ordered by viability are still open (even if its just one placement up or down), including this new list. Next update will be 2 weeks from now for obvious reasons, and those can go towards the rest of B rank sorting cuz its a 2 week gap. Have a fun christmas!

Updated B+ Order:

Yveltal
Dialga
Skarmory
Shaymin-Sky
Tyranitar
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Mewtwo Y
Excadrill


The last four was a difficult one to sort as opinions varied largely so i tried to find the middle ground. MMY is below Mega Kangaskhan due to the difficulty it has fitting onto a team. There's definitely some room to change these around if enough users reach an agreement.
 
I'd say exca above mm2y just because it's easier to fit on teams/build teams with. Ttar is also pretty high up so there's that. Everything else looks good other than that
 
Need a bit to figure out B mid. Here's my thoughts for B-.

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- I like Bronzong because it's a pretty nice Stealth Rock user and is decent for role compression because it checks a bunch of threats (though not all the time). As a Stealth Rock user, the main thing it has going for it is that it can beat most hazard control Pokemon 1 on 1. Support Arceus formes (bar Ghost Arceus) get hit with Toxic, Latias and Latios don't like Toxic and take a bunch from Gyro Ball, Mega Diancie dies to Gyro Ball, Mega Sableye can be bypassed with Skill Swap, etc. Some Rapid Spin users also get beaten like non-Mold Breaker Excadrill. Running Stealth Rock on Bronzong frees up Primal Groudon to run Swords Dance or something; note that Primal Groudon's dominance as a Stealth Rock setter gives Bronzong decent issues in regards to justification. Bronzong can also soft-check a bunch of stuff like Primal Groudon lacking a Fire move, Swords Dance Ground Arceus, Mega Salamence sometimes, Xerneas sometimes; bear in mind that it is susceptible to being worn down but on a bulky offense team it's a nice check for the first 1-2 times which is enough for some teams. It also can run Trick Room which is pretty unexplored but has some potential.
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- Dragon Arceus is pretty solid in my opinion because you can compress moveslots, being able to check Mega Salamence while also still carrying Defog threaten Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh with Judgment, unlike Water Arceus which can only run Ice Beam + Judgment or Judgment + Defog or Ice Beam + Defog. Of course the major downside is that you become bait for Fairies like Klefki, Mega Diancie, Xerneas, etc., but with support I think its a quite solid support Arceus forme on some teams.
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- I don't think Dark Arceus is as good as Dragon Arceus; Calm Mind Arceus formes have really fallen from grace in ORAS and just aren't as effective. Dark Arceus is still decently threatening though and checks Ghost-types, Yveltal, Latias, Latios, etc. so it still has merit though.
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- Clefable provides nice support with both Wish and Heal Bell which is pretty cool, but it doesn't really check much relevant stuff besides Xerneas and the declining number of Calm Mind Arceus formes; it's also food for Mega Gengar. That said, having both Wish and Heal Bell is really nice and something not many other Pokemon can afford, as Blissey struggles to fit it with Toxic being mandatory, two slots taken by either Wish + Protect or Softboiled + Heal Bell, then there's one flexible slot where you can have an attack or Snatch, this would be the only slot you could argue to replace.
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- In addition to doing typical Steel-type stuff (i.e. check Latias, Latios, sorta check Xerneas, bait for Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh), Jirachi can run a bulky set with Wish which is pretty cool niche, as it can heal up some teammates that get worn down like Mega Diancie or Giratina-O. It can also run a Scarf set which has Healing Wish and U-turn which is nice. It faces competition from other Steel-types, but it does have a clear niche. Maybe could be argued for higher than Clefable, though I'm not sure.
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- I put this below Jirachi because I just don't think it does as much. It has priority Bullet Punch which makes it a bit better for checking Xerneas and it has Pursuit, but Jirachi's Wish, Healing Wish, and more versatility makes it a bit higher than Mega Scizor. Also, Mega Scizor uses up the Mega slot, which makes it WAY worse in regards to opportunity cost.
 
B Rank
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I would rank MMX at the top because it's a decent wallbreaker and provides defensive utility in checking Ekiller and Darkrai (after something has been sleep fodderd) which makes it really nice vs hyperoffense. Too bad it doesn't do anything vs stall or in general builds with Mega Sableye.
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The shuca Hone Claws set is really nice if you pair it with stuff like Xerneas which really appreciates Primal Groudon being weakened. It also has a really good matchup vs stall and still provides defensive utility in soft checking stuff like Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence but I wouldn't rank it over MMX simply because it still gets outsped by many threats like Diancie, Lati, Darkrai and stuff and Primal Groudon still beats it.
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Ferrothorn checks a lot of stuff like Primal Kyogre, Lati, Mega Diancie, Mega Kangaskhan, Ekiller sort of and even some Xerneas because (Focus Blast isn't as common as it once was) while being a spikes setter with semi-reliable recovery. It gives stuff like Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh free switch ins and doesn't do anything vs Mega Sableye tho.
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Mega Lucario is like on of the best stallbreakers in the tier right now. It basically OHKOs everything at +2 in standard stall bar Arceus-Water at full or Lugia which can't do anything besides whirlwinding. It can also run stone edge to lure Ho-Oh but it loses out on so much stallbreaking potential. It doesn't provide any defensive utility tho outside of checking weakened Geoxern and some Ekiller because adamant is becoming more popular and it's matchup vs hyperoffense is pretty poor.
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While Blissey only fits on one playstyle it is obviously the best cleric on stall. It doesn't check too much but it's the only cleric which can check Primal Kyogre, Kyurem-White and CM Refresh Arceus (with snatch). However like I said it only fits on Stall and there are many many pokemon which can take advantage of it.
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Unlike Tyranitar it's a pursuit trapper which can check fairies (especially Xerneas pretty well). It checks some other stuff eg Lati, non Fire Blast Mewtwo, shits on supportceus and it can scout with king's shield vs banded Ho-Oh but thats pretty much it. Many threats like Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Arceus-Ground, Yveltal and Darkrai can switch in on Aegislash while the best thing it can do is toxicing them.
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Wobbuffet has a nice niche on offensive teams because it can trap and turn most pokemon into setup fodders which is especially nice if you pair it with frail sweepers like Mega Lucario. It can also check some things like Mewtwo, Xerneas (although block xerneas shits on wobb) and Latias but has to rely on some ugly 50/50s to switch in on Ekiller, check Diancie etc.

I'm not 100% sure if I would put either Wobb or Aegislash at the bottom tho.
 
why mmx so high? Sure it's decent vs standard ho being able to check ekiller/darkrai while bopping mmence and stopping pdon and xern from setting up. That's really the only thing it's good for. It's deadweight vs stall and it's pretty shit vs balance. It has a huge opportunity cost taking up a mega slot when lo m2 can basically do the same thing other than checking ekiller. I guess the rest of the list is ight but mmx seems like it should be closer to Luke. Maybe ferro and blissey should be swapped tho cause ferro is having trouble fitting on teams because it loses to msab and hooh can take advantage of it. On the other hand blissey will always have a spot on stall and it does its job well.
 
I think you're underestimating MewtwoX magsyy. yeah it gets hard walled by Sableye and so isn't good vs stall, I definitely agree with you there, but it can do decently vs a lot of balance teams. Stone edge is something I've been playing around with lately and turns Ho-oh into paste, Diancie hates trying to tank hits from it like earthquake and iron tail, both of which just OHKO it. Also, with Will-o-wisp (something it can actually run) it prevents setup from all SD arceus formes. With will-o-wisp low kick eq and stone edge, the only physical attacker that wants to try and take it on is mence, which really hates ice beam variants and can still get crippled if you aren't running refresh or facade. Yeah xerneas shits on it, but that's why it has team-mates, its only in B, it doesn't need to take on the whole metagame.

Also its speed tier is lovely. Having something that can outspeed Darkrai/Skymin and speed tie with gengar and opposing mewtwos on your balance/bulky offense team is so nice. Also prevents rocks from any non-groudon stealth rocker, and the entire defog game is dependant on how well you can defog on groudon so its a very good partner for a bunch of good mons like waterceus who would have trouble with some other rock setters.
 
Again can't lo m2 just disrupt hooh balance teams even better while not taking up a mega slot? Seriously I'm confused what mmx will do over lo m2 other than check ekiller better.
 
Well that's why mm2x is in B while Mewtwo is in A-. They're just talking about how good it is compared to the other mons in this part of the rankings not the entire thing. But I agree that mm2x should be at the top of this list due to the fact that it just reaches such a good speed tier, and has so many good moveset options. It really can run a lot of different sets and can be altered to fit the team structure very easily, which in my mind gives it the ability to be at the top of B.
 
I would rank it zekrom/Luke/mmx/blissey/ferro/aegi/wob

I understand people love mmx for its speed tier and what not but it still is ehh. Zekrom is pretty cool imo. It's a guessing mon but it's not deadweight vs any playstyle like mmx. It also has a little more defensive synergy with a team. Mega Luke disrupts stall and can soft check darkrai/adamant ekiller while being able to revenge xern so is not really bad vs ho. Bliss will always find its team on stall while building with ferro and aegi is pretty hard. Wob is fine at bottom imo.
 
in B+ my order would probably be: Dragceus > TTar > Exca > Dialga > Skarm > Yveltal > Skymin > Kanga > MMY

Dragceus is pretty good and should rise. It's actually much better than Rockceus but w/e. Neutral judgment vs Pdon and a fire resist is what it's got over Waterceus, which gives more options vs it. It outclassed Ice Beam/Tox/Defog/Recover Waterceus unless you are rly Diancie weak. I often pair it with steels like Ferro/Jirachi/Aegi if I wanna feel secure vs Diancie, but oftentimes a Klefki and sufficient offensive presence is doable.

TTar is higher than Exca, but a case could be made for any order here really- Exca lead team w/ cb Ho-oh/Mence/Pdon/Xern/Ekiller is good but TTar fits well on stall.

Dialga is a Mence check so it gets to be in the next spot.

Skarm is principially a better ground resist than Yveltal and Skymin because it can actually check ground types. Skymin in particular I've never really gotten to work- the only thing I can find going for it is the Darkrai revenging ability+pseudo ogre check.

Kanga and MMY come last in this bracket no because they are worse mons, but because as mega-slots, they are quite underwhelming.

in B my order would be: Zong > Rachi > Ferro > Wob > Zek > Aegi > MMX > Blissey

This rank is basically the niche steel rank, where I've ranked all uber viable steels other than Klefki/Skarm (we don't count Dialga ok) in my estimated order of usefulness. Thrown in are also some other random mons.

Zong highest, although I haven't really figured out a good build with SR Zong, I feel like it has shown useful traits in some games. Levitate is what makes it better than the others, pretty much. Rachi trades that ability for a neat wish pass set. Also has a way to paralyze grounds. Wish has good synergy with partners like Diancie, Pdon and Giratina-O, so it's very neat. Ferro is interesting but has much more problems with Xern than the other steels. That really hurts its viabilty, but on the flipside it is a great Pogre check.

Wob and Zekrom ruins the steel chain by squeezing in after Ferro because it is simply hard to justify Aegi over other steels. It has pursuit, which is not bad but that's about what it has over the others. And I guess it's a good Lucario (lol) check as well.

Regarding MMX, I think I'd honestly rather use it than MMY or Kanga. So idk where to put it (maybe dropping Kanga/MMY idk). Blissey has been good on 1 team.
 
lol its gettin to the point where u can just use an rng and pick the order bc who uses half these mons

also fwiw my opinion would be::::::::::::;

arc-dra / ttar / dialga / exca / yveltal / skarm / kanga / skymin / mmy
 
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Yveltal's best niche to me has always been AV. Every time I use the life orb set I'm just like, why don't I have Darkrai instead? But the AV Yveltal set is one of the few switch ins to Darkrai (that lack life orb + thunder anyway) while also having a strong offensive presence, healing with oblivion wing, strong priority, and preventing physical set up sweepers with foul play.

AV Yveltal needs a hard counter for geomancy Xern on the team, but aside from that obvious support, I think this is the best Yveltal set and should be what he's ranked on. I would put that set at the top of B+
 
AV hits like wet paper, doesn't really check anything notable outside of Darkrai and even then something needs to absorb Dark Void because you can't even use Sleep Talk lol. For me Life Orb with Knock Off is the only set worth using now, because the defensive set is kinda meh outside of being the best Ghosty check in the game, I'd honestly prefer smth like Skarm on most builds. Mixed Life Orb at least rules Ho-oh out as a pivot, makes Klefki more vulnerable to chip dmg(spikes etc.) and makes offensive mgar that much more threatening to stall as tar can't rly take it on after a knock. Mid B+ though because every team I've seen with it or tried to use it on myself has pretty drastic limitations compared to say Ho-oh balance as others have already explained.
 
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AV hits like wet paper, doesn't really check anything outside of Darkrai and even then something needs to absorb Dark Void because you can't even use Sleep Talk lol. For me Life Orb with Knock Off is the only set worth using now, because the defensive set is kinda meh outside of being the best Ghosty check in the game, I'd honestly prefer smth like Skarm on most builds. Mixed Life Orb at least rules Ho-oh out as a pivot, makes Klefki more vulnerable to chip dmg(spikes etc.) and makes offensive mgar that much more threatening to stall as tar can't rly take it on after a knock. B+ though because every team I've seen with it or tried to use it on myself has pretty drastic limitations compared to say Ho-oh balance as others have already explained.

AV also checks Mewtwo and life orb Yveltal, but that's not why you use it. The key is having a switch in for Darkrai who shits on balance otherwise. Skarm is nice but if you're already running Lugia, then you have physical threats covered fairly well.
 
So it checks 2 other mons which are rarely seen anyway? And stop saying you have a switch for Darkrai lol, you switch in to anything then just get slept and do what? Sit there while it Nasty Plots and you take Bad Dreams dmg on top of the SR dmg you most likely already took, or you give Xern a free entry. AV has very little use vs balance(Ho-oh, Klefki, any moderately bulky Arceus check it) and stall(Tar,Arceus again etc.), vs offense it's free set up for Xern, gets slept by Darkrai, Deo gets rocks and spikes if it's sash and it doesn't actually check any mon on offense. This set actually manages to be mediocre against 3 major archetypes lol.
 
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