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Gen 6 ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PISTOLERO
- Start date
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The thing is Primal Groudon can carry overheat 4 SpA Primal Groudon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gliscor in Harsh Sunshine: 378-445 (106.7 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO, so it's not really a great check for it. Also 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 199-235 (56.2 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal, It's not really a great counter to these two mons.
Gliscor is not a very reliable check to PDon, but I'm pretty sure most Ho-Oh don't run enough speed to outspeed Gliscor so you can stall it out with roost. Unless Ho-Oh has Sub+Roost over CB of course.
If Ho-Oh runs max speed, then it can outspeed. Also Gliscor isn't a reliable couter if it has to "stall" it out with roost.
Just wanted to point that Lava Plume still 2HKOs Gliscor so you don't really need Overheat to beat it, and Lava Plume variants are more common anyways. However, I also think that Gliscor got worse in ORAS, Primal Groudon being the most common mon means that you will most likely use it as your Ground-type mon (it's true that Groudon doesn't share the water weakness, but I guess I did never seen someone using Groudon with another Ground-type mon, bar Arceus ground which, moreover, can actually check better Groudon than Gliscor) so Gliscor is a bit outclassed . Oras also brought two other threats against Gliscor can't do much, Primal Kyogre and Salamence. Actually, I guess that it can Toxic Salamence before dying, but saccing a mon to poison another one, it isn't really good imo, also Refresh variants just uses Gliscor as setup fodder. Maybe something like B+ works better for it as of now.
While it's true that defog Scizor has gotten worse I don't see how it was bad to begin with. mega Scizor was( and still is) one of the bulkiest defoggers, and its defensive typing means that unless you have a strong fire type move, it will get that defog off
I said check, not counter. Yes, Jirachi falls to Mewtwo's Fire Blast, but it's not like Scizor does any better. In general, Scizor-Mega is superior. That's why it has a higher ranking. However, stating that Jirachi is completely outclassed is entirely false, as it can provide different team support than Scizor-Mega as well as allowing your Mega slot to be consumed by something else that might fit your team better.
[EDIT] 400th post woot woot
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Exactly my point. It also becomes set up fodder to Sub DD mence. I personally think it should be moved down from A- ---> B
I also explained why Glicor should move down in my other posts.
mega sayble should raise from b to b +or a because it COUNTERS ACREUS NORMAL by running foul play.It also fucks lugia side ways while preventing hazards. It is also a pretty god check to dexoys and mewtwo y and x. It also checks arceus posin and dark while it can beat arceus ground if runing cm set.
Tbh, i don't see much of a reason to use palkia over the latis anymore. The latis check kyogre just fine(though a lot more kyogre are running blizzard as inaccurate as it is, so i can see the value of palkia to some extent)while still providing defog support and not being as liable to pDon as palkia is. Cm groundceus isn't that great unfortunately as Pdon still deals mad chunks to it with p blades while lava plume doing about a third of an amount on the switch even when uninvested and isnt really difficult to deal with. I personally prefer sd as it reliably checks pdon more and brings better momentum for offensive teams but to each their own. Tbh what doesn't become setup throdder for mence lol. But i do think m-scizor is pretty underwhelming as a defogger for the reasons Wreckdra stated.B+ ---> A- While I think we can all agree that Palkia is not as good as it was in XY, its still a great pokemon. It checks Primal Kyogre, and also beats Arceus-Ground, a pokemon that is rising in popularity due to Primal Groudon.
A- ---> B+ While Mega Scizor is a great pokemon, it gets maimed by Primal Don. Not only that, but it becomes set up fodder for the likes of Mega Mence.
I also explained why Glicor should move down in my other posts.
Palkia isn't Primal Don weak at all, Spacial Rend does massive amounts of damage to it. Its lesser special bulk and lack of access to STAB Psyshock means that it cannot switch into Calm Mind Primal Kyogre and beat it 1-1 like the Lati's can. Like Latias and Latios, it also hates Thunder Wave. Another issue that Palkia faces is the general lack of mons in the metagame it can check. With Electric Arceus now being shit, Toxic Palkia (aka specially defensive) is essentially useless, and as noted before Lustrous Orb Palkia struggles to come in on Kyogre or anything that isn't passive ala Mega Scizor. With that said, Orb Palkia is still a dangerous Pokemon due to its power and coverage (Lati@s do not get Fire Blast!), even if it's really hard to justify using over Latias 99% of the time. It's a mon that won't see much use in SPL but deserves its B+ ranking simply due to how dangerous it can be. Don't forget that Dragon Tail and Thunder Wave can dick with CM Arceus formes.
It's true that it beats Extreme Killer, Lugia, Deoxys-S and both Mewtwo forms but it has big flaws too imo (it still can't beat Arceus Ground as you said though, at least Sword Dance variants which are probs the best one atm), first, it's setup fodder for things like Primal Groudon and Xerneas that are at the top of tier, plus it loses to Kyogre, Yveltal, Darkrai, Diancie, Arceus Dark and Salamence that are very consistent and common as well. As you can see I made some examples just to help you understand that while Sableye checks the mons you mentioned, it still fails against many others. It also gets competition as a mega, and it's hard to not use any of Salamence / Mewtwo Y / Mewtwo X / Diancie / Kangaskhan. I guess it's ok in a Stall team, but they aren't consistent as a playstyle too. It isn't A in any means, and I guess that it doesn't deserve to rise in a lower tier respect the A because of the flaws I explained before. It loses against too many mons that are very common in the tier, and it's also worthy to use just in a Stall team, because in the other playstyles there are much better megas than it overall. I think that B rank already fits Mega Sableye pretty well, it isn't a decent mon I guess, but definitely nothing special.
yes mega i know hat it gets fucked up by lots for alt of things in the tier but it beats it IS NOT SET UP FODDER FOR mega salmence cause it learns this move named foul play and primal grouden can not set up sd's on it because of foul play. Xearnes can t switch in fearing knock off. mega sayble also beats most sd arceus with foul play
Some one might've mentioned it before, but I'll nominate again: Kyurem-W from B- to B/B+. Its strengths and weaknesses are largely unchanged, but the meta change has been kind to it:
1. Stealth Rock is more easily kept off of the battlefield thanks to Lati@s and Magic Bouncers, which is good news for all SR weak Pokemon, including Kyurem-W.
2. Decline in Water and Steel types thanks to Primal Groudon.
3. Almost every single addition to the metagame, namely PDon, Lati@s, Mega Mence, Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, cannot switch in to Kyurem-W's attack.
4. The bulky offense meta suits Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W isn't very fast, but has the devastating power to break through bulkier Pokemon.
So I think it deserves a small bump. Getting it to A- might be too much, but B or B+ seems like a good place for it.
1. Stealth Rock is more easily kept off of the battlefield thanks to Lati@s and Magic Bouncers, which is good news for all SR weak Pokemon, including Kyurem-W.
2. Decline in Water and Steel types thanks to Primal Groudon.
3. Almost every single addition to the metagame, namely PDon, Lati@s, Mega Mence, Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, cannot switch in to Kyurem-W's attack.
4. The bulky offense meta suits Kyurem-W. Kyurem-W isn't very fast, but has the devastating power to break through bulkier Pokemon.
So I think it deserves a small bump. Getting it to A- might be too much, but B or B+ seems like a good place for it.
Update time~
Changes made
Lucario down from B to C+
Arceus-Dark up to A+ from A
Gothitelle down from B to C
Jirachi up from C+ to B-
Gliscor down to B+ from A-
Zekrom down to B from B+
________
Please discuss:
Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y down to A from A+
Arceus-Ground down to A- from A
Blaziken down from A- to B+
Deoxys-Speed down to B+ / B from A-
Deoxys-Attack down to B+ / B from A-
Mega Mewtwo X down to B+ / B from A-
Skarmory up to B from B-
Arceus-Electric down from B to C+ / B-
________
Reasoning:
Lucario -> Wasn't great in XY and pretty much needed Sticky Web to be effective. Lati@s have killed the viability of Sticky Web now, Lucario just isn't good as it's slow on the first turn, the opportunity cost of not using Salamence is massive, Primal Groudon checks it very nicely, Arceus-Ghost has risen in prominence and can deal with Lucario. Yeah Arceus-Dark is really good now but Lucario is easily checked so Arceus-Dark doesn't care.
Arceus-Dark -> I think we can all universally agree that Arceus-Dark is fantastic, stallbreaks absorbs status etc you know this already.
Gothitelle -> nothing to trap, Pursuit trappers around for Lati@s, eaten alive by Arceus-Dark, cannot trap Arceus-Ghost.
Jirachi -> I agree with WreckDra on this one, you have to use U-Turn in my opinion but it's so unbelievably irratating to play against and just U-Turns off your Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh or Arceus-Dark as they switch in. Also works really well against Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy for what it's worth, and does everything else it did in XY.
Gliscor -> it is no fun switching this in on defensive Primal Groudon as Gliscor gets 2HKOed through Poison heal by Lava Plume and can easily be ruined by a burn on the first switchin. Substitute or Refresh Salamence give it a hard time too.
Zekrom -> remember the 50/50 games you had to play in XY? THose are still around and Zekrom finds itself outsped and relatively easy to pivot around. The dominance of Primal Groudon + Xerneas makes it extremely hard to teambuild with Zekrom.
Reasoning for potential changes:
Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y -> It may just be me but I find it very hard to build teams with Mewtwo, I always end up wanting Focus Blast for Arceus-Dark and Tyranitar, Fire Blast for Klefki and Scizor, Ice Beam for Salamence and Taunt for general use, and I miss the move that I didn't choose very often. Stalltwo is hard to use with the existence of Primal Groudon, and in general I find it is easier to check Mewtwo in ORAS than it was in XY. Don't forget the opportunity cost~
Arceus-Ground -> I know we all thought this would be great due to Primal Groudon, but special Arceus-Ground is so unbelievably bad I find it hard to see why people are still using it. Lava Plume does 35% and will burn eventually, and it is easy to pivot into Arceus-Ground. Calm Mind gets beaten by Latias and can also be beaten by Latios one-on-one, and gets utterly annihilated by Ho-Oh. Swords Dance is nice but if you want to use it as a switchin to Primal Groudon you'll be disappointed, Precipice Blades does a huge amount, Lava Plume can cripple it etc. It does revenge kill Primal Groudon, and you can use SD + Recover, but then that mandates that you have a solid Salamence check. See Hack's post here, he explains it much better than I could
Blaziken -> Salamence causes it issues and Primal Groudon has increased Defense to take it on rather nicely. Stone Edge is almost a necessity now, meaning that Giratina-Origin can take it rather easily, and Lati@s can check it fairly well (they can't switch in though). The opportunity cost is huge as well
Deoxys-Speed & Deoxys-Attack -> Deoxys-Speed hazards offense is simply bad, Screens is better but still faces problems due to the existence of Defog Lati@s. Both can be antiled rather easily, and Life Orb Deoxys-Attack is nigh-on impossible to make a team with.
Mega Mewtwo X -> It is quite simply average, it is impossible to pick a moveset for it, and it is rather easily walled, and very easily checked. Opportunity cost again.
Skarmory -> Spikes are very nice, it can Whirlwind Salamence away without a care in the world, it counters Double Dance Primal Groudon, Taunt opposing Ferrothorn etc and generally be really really annoying to deal with. You can also spring a nasty surprise on Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon with Counter. Please don't use Defog or Stealth Rock on Skarmory though~
Arceus-Electric -> Nigh on unusable due to Primal Groudon and can also lose to Lati@s 1v1. You can say all you like about it checking Ho-Oh, Kyogre, etc bla bla bla but your opponent will just switch directly into the Primal Groudon that will be on their team. Also, Blizzard is bad, especially on this
Lucario down from B to C+
Arceus-Dark up to A+ from A
Gothitelle down from B to C
Jirachi up from C+ to B-
Gliscor down to B+ from A-
Zekrom down to B from B+
________
Please discuss:
Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y down to A from A+
Arceus-Ground down to A- from A
Blaziken down from A- to B+
Deoxys-Speed down to B+ / B from A-
Deoxys-Attack down to B+ / B from A-
Mega Mewtwo X down to B+ / B from A-
Skarmory up to B from B-
Arceus-Electric down from B to C+ / B-
________
Reasoning:
Lucario -> Wasn't great in XY and pretty much needed Sticky Web to be effective. Lati@s have killed the viability of Sticky Web now, Lucario just isn't good as it's slow on the first turn, the opportunity cost of not using Salamence is massive, Primal Groudon checks it very nicely, Arceus-Ghost has risen in prominence and can deal with Lucario. Yeah Arceus-Dark is really good now but Lucario is easily checked so Arceus-Dark doesn't care.
Arceus-Dark -> I think we can all universally agree that Arceus-Dark is fantastic, stallbreaks absorbs status etc you know this already.
Gothitelle -> nothing to trap, Pursuit trappers around for Lati@s, eaten alive by Arceus-Dark, cannot trap Arceus-Ghost.
Jirachi -> I agree with WreckDra on this one, you have to use U-Turn in my opinion but it's so unbelievably irratating to play against and just U-Turns off your Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh or Arceus-Dark as they switch in. Also works really well against Calm Mind Arceus-Fairy for what it's worth, and does everything else it did in XY.
Gliscor -> it is no fun switching this in on defensive Primal Groudon as Gliscor gets 2HKOed through Poison heal by Lava Plume and can easily be ruined by a burn on the first switchin. Substitute or Refresh Salamence give it a hard time too.
Zekrom -> remember the 50/50 games you had to play in XY? THose are still around and Zekrom finds itself outsped and relatively easy to pivot around. The dominance of Primal Groudon + Xerneas makes it extremely hard to teambuild with Zekrom.
Reasoning for potential changes:
Mewtwo and Mega Mewtwo Y -> It may just be me but I find it very hard to build teams with Mewtwo, I always end up wanting Focus Blast for Arceus-Dark and Tyranitar, Fire Blast for Klefki and Scizor, Ice Beam for Salamence and Taunt for general use, and I miss the move that I didn't choose very often. Stalltwo is hard to use with the existence of Primal Groudon, and in general I find it is easier to check Mewtwo in ORAS than it was in XY. Don't forget the opportunity cost~
Arceus-Ground -> I know we all thought this would be great due to Primal Groudon, but special Arceus-Ground is so unbelievably bad I find it hard to see why people are still using it. Lava Plume does 35% and will burn eventually, and it is easy to pivot into Arceus-Ground. Calm Mind gets beaten by Latias and can also be beaten by Latios one-on-one, and gets utterly annihilated by Ho-Oh. Swords Dance is nice but if you want to use it as a switchin to Primal Groudon you'll be disappointed, Precipice Blades does a huge amount, Lava Plume can cripple it etc. It does revenge kill Primal Groudon, and you can use SD + Recover, but then that mandates that you have a solid Salamence check. See Hack's post here, he explains it much better than I could
Blaziken -> Salamence causes it issues and Primal Groudon has increased Defense to take it on rather nicely. Stone Edge is almost a necessity now, meaning that Giratina-Origin can take it rather easily, and Lati@s can check it fairly well (they can't switch in though). The opportunity cost is huge as well
Deoxys-Speed & Deoxys-Attack -> Deoxys-Speed hazards offense is simply bad, Screens is better but still faces problems due to the existence of Defog Lati@s. Both can be antiled rather easily, and Life Orb Deoxys-Attack is nigh-on impossible to make a team with.
Mega Mewtwo X -> It is quite simply average, it is impossible to pick a moveset for it, and it is rather easily walled, and very easily checked. Opportunity cost again.
Skarmory -> Spikes are very nice, it can Whirlwind Salamence away without a care in the world, it counters Double Dance Primal Groudon, Taunt opposing Ferrothorn etc and generally be really really annoying to deal with. You can also spring a nasty surprise on Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon with Counter. Please don't use Defog or Stealth Rock on Skarmory though~
Arceus-Electric -> Nigh on unusable due to Primal Groudon and can also lose to Lati@s 1v1. You can say all you like about it checking Ho-Oh, Kyogre, etc bla bla bla but your opponent will just switch directly into the Primal Groudon that will be on their team. Also, Blizzard is bad, especially on this
I will, sadly, have to agree about Mewtwo and Mewtwo-Mega-Y. Not only is it tough to teambuild with them, but you cannot even OHKO most of the mons you menioned there. (Klefki, for example, comes near OHKO, but not quite, even after rocks. You have to get a high roll)
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 278-330 (87.6 - 104.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, as shown here. Yveltal will kill with Sucker Punch before you even have the chance to Ice Beam (and you won't kill it in 1 hit anyway), Focus Blast is a bit of a shaky way to check Darkrai 1 vs 1, and you can only fit so many moves into it, before you end up looking for secondary ways to check various Pokemon. I also completely agree about Stalltwo. Last but not least, Mewtwo-Mega-Y does not really justify the use of the mega slot, when you can simply have other, greater options.
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 278-330 (87.6 - 104.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, as shown here. Yveltal will kill with Sucker Punch before you even have the chance to Ice Beam (and you won't kill it in 1 hit anyway), Focus Blast is a bit of a shaky way to check Darkrai 1 vs 1, and you can only fit so many moves into it, before you end up looking for secondary ways to check various Pokemon. I also completely agree about Stalltwo. Last but not least, Mewtwo-Mega-Y does not really justify the use of the mega slot, when you can simply have other, greater options.
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I definitely agree with Deoxys-S and -A moving down, as hazard laying HO has definitely become harder (maybe borderline unviable). I would also make the distinction of Deoxys-S in B+ and Deoxys-A in B. Deoxys-S is a viable Dual Screens user, and that is still okay I feel (possibly the only form of HO still viable). With Screens, its bulk actually becomes usable, allowing it to potentially come back later in the game to set up again. Deoxys-A can't do this. It absolutely has to use Focus Sash, so no Light Clay. It doesn't have the bulk to setup screens again. You may argue it has the offensive presence, and yeah it can OHKO offensive Mega Diancie which Deoxys-S can't do, but that's a pretty situational thing. Otherwise, it just dies to any sort of priority without Sash.
Deoxys S really needs the drop; it can't effectively set hazards effectively anymore because of some new Magic Bouncers and defoggers, the former can only be dealt with by wasting moveslots to Skill Swap or Meteor Mash for Diancie. All in all, not a very good lead anymore; dual screens is usable however. I agree with dropping it.
willthenoob, i don't know why you agree with Deo A dropping, based upon your reasoning. For 1, it never had a viable dual screens set because that's done better by Deo s and even klefki; for 2, the sash set is very viable despite that it gets beat by Mega Sab, because it can set hazards on just about anything and nuke hard with psych boost, most of its flaws are easily fixed by teammates such as Darkrai and Mega Gengar; Darkrai alone fixes the Sash set's flaws in my opinion. Lastly, I feel that dropping it purely on the fact that its lead set isn't as good as it once was is very flawed. It still has an offensive set of unparalleled power, and I understand that its priority weak "yada yada yada"; but like I said about its Sash set, its flaws are easily remedied with teammates, in this case such teammates are priority sponges such as Arceus Ghost, Gira O, and Regular Groudon. Its still an amazing wallbreaker with LO, has revenge killing utility, really doesn't care about hazards because it's not taking hits anyway, and pretty much does what it wants once it gets into battle due to how good its coverage and power is. I could go on and on about how threatening the LO set is.
PISTOLERO, i don't know why you mentioned that Deo A is hard to build around; unless you're fireburn its possible, but otherwise, its not the type of Pokemon to build around. It's more of something you slap onto a team, if it fits, of course. I don't see how the challenge of teambuilding around it is a good argument to drop it, tbf.
TL;DR, Deo A stays A- because of its sheer versitality and unparalleled power, which makes up for its nonexistent defensive synergy. Lead set is still viable, but just like its life orb set, its flaws are easily remedies by teammates.
willthenoob, i don't know why you agree with Deo A dropping, based upon your reasoning. For 1, it never had a viable dual screens set because that's done better by Deo s and even klefki; for 2, the sash set is very viable despite that it gets beat by Mega Sab, because it can set hazards on just about anything and nuke hard with psych boost, most of its flaws are easily fixed by teammates such as Darkrai and Mega Gengar; Darkrai alone fixes the Sash set's flaws in my opinion. Lastly, I feel that dropping it purely on the fact that its lead set isn't as good as it once was is very flawed. It still has an offensive set of unparalleled power, and I understand that its priority weak "yada yada yada"; but like I said about its Sash set, its flaws are easily remedied with teammates, in this case such teammates are priority sponges such as Arceus Ghost, Gira O, and Regular Groudon. Its still an amazing wallbreaker with LO, has revenge killing utility, really doesn't care about hazards because it's not taking hits anyway, and pretty much does what it wants once it gets into battle due to how good its coverage and power is. I could go on and on about how threatening the LO set is.
PISTOLERO, i don't know why you mentioned that Deo A is hard to build around; unless you're fireburn its possible, but otherwise, its not the type of Pokemon to build around. It's more of something you slap onto a team, if it fits, of course. I don't see how the challenge of teambuilding around it is a good argument to drop it, tbf.
TL;DR, Deo A stays A- because of its sheer versitality and unparalleled power, which makes up for its nonexistent defensive synergy. Lead set is still viable, but just like its life orb set, its flaws are easily remedies by teammates.
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I agree with Blaziken dropping to B+. speed boost still make it a bitch to revenge kill but it's offenses just isn't what it used to be. Primal Groudon can stomach any hit and OHKO back, as long as it doesn't switch into low kick too recklessly. Mega Salamence completely walks over it if it doesn't have stone miss (Idk if that can OHKO after an intimidate even). Lots of new checks like primal kyogre and the eon duo with their soul dew items back. Overall the meta kinda went against it so it should warrant a drop. Even with baton pass as a niche a drop should still happening; what it can bp to cant stomach anything from PG anyway
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Ok let me reiterate. Both Deoxys-A and -S suffered hits because their suicide hazard lead sets became less viable. Not just because of Magic Bounce, but also the fact that Lati@s as Defoggers are a lot bulkier on the special side + has Levitate, which makes them harder to pressure (they also hit harder than all previous Defoggers so that they force switches themselves, creating more free turns to Defog). However, Deoxys-S is still viable as a dual screens HO lead, because it has the bulk after dual screens to potentially set up a few more times (so you're not simply playing one mon short if a Lati gets a free turn and Defogs), and dual screens doesn't care about Magic Bounce. Deoxys-A, on the other hand, never had this set and never will, as you correctly mentioned. So my argument is: as a dedicated lead on HO, Deoxys-S dual screens is the most consistent, despite Deo-A hazard can be more useful in select situations.
Now Deoxys-A does have a viable attacking set, but like you said it has its flaws (i.e. no defensive synergy to speak of, hard to switch in and weak to all priorities). I guess you can argue that this attacking set make up for the fact that Deo-S is almost a strictly better HO lead, and that's a fair argument. But I'm gonna say both took hits in terms of viability and both should see themselves fall to B+.
Just wanted to say that Mega Mewtwo X isn't THAT bad, I mean the opportunity cost is huge etc but I have found it pretty hard to deal with as the Bulk Up set is imo really threatening, it can check threats like Darkrai, Arceus Dark, and beats other like Salamence (Ice Punch) and Xerneas (Poison Jab, I guess it isn't a super common choice but still viable), it's also hard to wear down after 1 single Bulk Up because of how fast and bulky it is (it beats easily PDon in 1v1 thanks to Drain Punch, that can just phaze it or fish for a burn with Lava Plume). Also, Taunt is another cool option I guess, which hurts more defensive oriented building much. Finally, since regular Mewtwo and Mega Y variants are more common than X variants for sure, it can catch some people off guard as well, which is of course never bad. For all these reason, I guess that Mega Mewtwo X deserves its place in A- rank.
Also, can we discuss about Kyurem-W rising as well? :O I feel like it got better in ORAS and would love to know what you guys think about it.
Will probably post other thoughts about the other mons tomorrow or whenever I have some free time, though.
Also, can we discuss about Kyurem-W rising as well? :O I feel like it got better in ORAS and would love to know what you guys think about it.
Will probably post other thoughts about the other mons tomorrow or whenever I have some free time, though.
I don't believe that Deo-S is strictly or almost strictly a better lead for HO offense. Yes, Deo-A is extremely frail, but its frailty is made up by the fact that it still hits like a nuke, especially with psycho boost and espeed. Though I do agree that Deo-S is better as an overall hazard lead (i wouldn't use Deo-A as a spikes lead, just with SR), Deo-A still has more than enough to warrant use as an HO hazard lead (mainly the fact that it still hits most opposing defoggers and opposing mons in general very hard and typically forces out switches to where setting up rocks is a feat it can still accomplish. It can prevent opposing Deo-S leads from setting up more than one hazard as well and typically comes out on top against them.
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