ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

[gantz]

Gligar is still set-up bait if Salamence comes in and Intimidates.
-1 0 Atk Gligar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 92-110 (27.7 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
And then Salamence can either Roost-stall Gligar out of Stone Edges, after which the following happens:
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 141-166 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Nah, Gligar isn't the best option against Salamence.

Forgive me if I am wrong but I think it's so slow because without Toxic, it is set up bait for literally everything, including but not limited to:

Suicune, Hone Claws + Roost Aero, Cress, Salamence, Gatr, Snorlax, Reuniclus, CM Florges, Work Up Pidgeot, and anything else with set up moves not weak to EQ (I can't think of any off the top of my head). Even with toxic, Refresh Pidgeot, Snorlax, Reuniclus, Suicine, Florges, and even refresh Mence aren't crippled with Toxic. And if it runs Toxic, then it has only one extra slot (the other two must haves are EQ and Roost), so it can't use U-Turn as it probably will be a rock setter or defogger. No U-Turn is bad since its a massive momentum drain

Also stone edge IMO is pretty bad since it only handles a few of the threats and they can easily roost off the health due to the dropped flying type

Fair enough to say that Gligar is set up bait for a lot of sweepers in the game, it's not necessarily stuck and with U-Turn you can pivot. Although Gligar is set up fodder against many pokes, it beats many common offensive pokes such as Entei, Darmanitan, Heracross, Meinshao, Mega Bee, Lucario, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Rhyperior, Dugtrio, Acranine, etc, it may be set up fodder when considering situations where a Salamence is switch in on it, it can U-Turn or Toxic and get out, and Aero can be beat by Toxic as well. I suppose it isn't A rank worthy, I would still say it's more viable than Goodra, Qwilfish, or Mega Glalie.

 

[YABO]

Fair enough to say that Gligar is set up bait for a lot of sweepers in the game, it's not necessarily stuck and with U-Turn you can pivot. Although Gligar is set up fodder against many pokes, it beats many common offensive pokes such as Entei, Darmanitan, Heracross, Meinshao, Mega Bee, Lucario, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Rhyperior, Dugtrio, Acranine, etc, it may be set up fodder when considering situations where a Salamence is switch in on it, it can U-Turn or Toxic and get out, and Aero can be beat by Toxic as well. I suppose it isn't A rank worthy, I would still say it's more viable than Goodra, Qwilfish, or Mega Glalie.

The second it gets burned it stops walling entei. Shao is clicking U-turn anyways, same with bee. This doesn't include the ridiculous amount of stuff it loses to including many of the tiers most common things. There was a time where Gligar was good but that time has passed and it simply gets smashed by far too many things to be considered anywhere close to A rank.

 

[r0ady]

Fair enough to say that Gligar is set up bait for a lot of sweepers in the game, it's not necessarily stuck and with U-Turn you can pivot. Although Gligar is set up fodder against many pokes, it beats many common offensive pokes such as Entei, Darmanitan, Heracross, Meinshao, Mega Bee, Lucario, Mega Aggron, Cobalion, Rhyperior, Dugtrio, Acranine, etc, it may be set up fodder when considering situations where a Salamence is switch in on it, it can U-Turn or Toxic and get out, and Aero can be beat by Toxic as well. I suppose it isn't A rank worthy, I would still say it's more viable than Goodra, Qwilfish, or Mega Glalie.

beating a dead horse at this point but gets burned by entei 2hkod by darm knocked off/ set up on by hera, knocked off by shao and bee, ice punch luke beats it etc :/

 

[Hariyana Grande [old]]

Nominating for qwilfish to be moved up from B- to B/B+

Pretty sure some people have already discussed about this mon moving up, but I might as well bring this topic up again.

Qwil is a really good spike stacker rn, and also one of the very that we have in the tier.

Its got plenty of support moves to the point where it can be pretty unpredictable with tools such as d bond, taunt, explosion, and pain split for some recovery.

With its ability and typing, it also serves as a nice fighting switch in if you run max hp/defense for it to be more of a wall rather than a suicide lead.

Yeah thats all I got. While serving somewhat the same purpose as forretress without having the volt switch for momentum, qwil also has things which I already listed, making qwil a good poke to go up to B or maybe even B+

 

[YABO]

actually checking heracross is a solid reason to use qwil over forre. only issue is fitting it onto a team since there are so many good poison types in the tier.

 

[Hariyana Grande [old]]

actually checking heracross is a solid reason to use qwil over forre. only issue is fitting it onto a team since there are so many good poison types in the tier.

Well the thing is, there's a lot of good poison types that do different things

 

[aim]

Moving

Slowking A- -> A

Ever since Slowbro left UU, its role as one of the best physical walls has left a gap in UU. Fortunately, Slowking can fulfill the role of a fat calm-minder that walls threats such as mienshao and entei. Slowking is almost a middle-man between Suicune's nice Scald and extra bulk and reuniclus' better ability and STAB psyshock. Although regenerator is not as good for a calm minder as magic guard is, Slowking makes up for it with better special bulk than reuniclus and scald to act as a team supporter instead of solely a sweeper. Similarly, Slowking has attributes that Suicune does not. It gets psyshock to beat Suicune 1v1, it has reliable recovery, and a fantastic ability that allows it to pivot in and out of threats like Entei with ease. Slowking's niche in walling entei is that you can freely allow slowking to get to Yellow HP, as regenerator will leave it in range to live more hits.

Overall, Slowking can serve as a staple check to Physical fighting- and fire- type attackers, as well as a bulky special pivot, and a way to combat Suicune.

More changes to come within the week/by the beginning of next week! Keep in mind that these are decided by what you guys say + what the council thinks as well. Keep up the discussion, we are watching :] 'CEPT WITH FLYGON AND STEELIX PLEASE LOL

 

[teal6]

Current thoughts as a whole, not terribly in depth but I can elaborate on any of them:

___
A -> A-/B+
Short thoughts: Doesn't hit hard enough for being as frail as it is, SR weakness, dies to any priority whatsoever, opportunity cost with being a mega

___
A- -> B+
Short thoughts: Don't get me wrong, I love Seismitoad, but to me he is not as viable as many other A tiers. Even as a pDef version, he doesn't get too many switchins, and his nitch over Pert isn't big enough to warrant A- I feel, especially with Swampert in the same spot.

___
Unranked -> C
Short thoughts: I recently have been messing around on the ladder using the old Shedinja stall teams, and he still has a niche in the tier. There are enough things that can't hit him, combined with not wanting a burn that give him a role to play, and in a stall team Shedinja really shines.

Hopefully these thoughts can spark a little discussion or something, but overall the tiers are pretty stable as is I think.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Tangrowth is a monster when used with the correct pokemon! My Double Dogz Team really brings out the best in Tangrowth. Please Watch the replays and montage if you wish to see why this pile of noodles deserves a rank up!

Weed (Tangrowth) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off​

Replays:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223147254 Tangrowth becomes my last hope against Suicune when revealed that it has toxic!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223357817 Tangrowth takes mega horns from heracross and forces opponent to quit out due to Tangrowth induced core!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223359211 Waiv's Ferg cant break through and allows my core to wall the rest of his team; Turn 24
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223361058 Tangrowth take super effective moves EZ and retaliates with sleep and knock off!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223369122 Really good battle! Tangrowth withers down team and knocks off slowkings item to insure a calm mind war victory!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223531388 Krook cant do anything to the noddles while Tangrowth puts things to sleep and knocks off items!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223549190 Causes sleep knock off ruckis and becomes a great switch in rotom-C!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-224565065 Similar job to last battle. Comes in on something it walls and wrecks havoc!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-224764544 Tangrowth makes an opening for a Swampert Sweep!

Montage Above!​

This thing can wall Salamence! It can kill Feraligatr! It is such a problem for my opponents as they dont want stuff falling asleep and they dont want their items knocked off. Regenerator is so good as I can kill something or status something and switch to do it all over again. There are plenty of other sets that are also good like AV and LO. This thing is so bulky and diverse that I believe it needs to be higher in the rankings!
Tangrowth for B at least

 

[Christo]

Change I would like to see:

Granbull: C<B-/B

Granbull is one of the most reliable fighting checks or defensive pokemon for that matter in general in UU right now. With access to intimidate and and T-wave/heal bell, Granbull is an excellent supporting pokemon. Granbull also can pull off a very nice Rest/Talk set too with either Heal Bell to wake it self up from sleep, or T-wave/EQ. I honestly do not understand why it is this low on the viability rankings as it does not take that much team support to make it effective in the tier.

 

[Geopolitics]

Tangrowth is a monster when used with the correct pokemon! My Double Dogz Team really brings out the best in Tangrowth. Please Watch the replays and montage if you wish to see why this pile of noodles deserves a rank up!

Weed (Tangrowth) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Knock Off​

Replays:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223147254 Tangrowth becomes my last hope against Suicune when revealed that it has toxic!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223357817 Tangrowth takes mega horns from heracross and forces opponent to quit out due to Tangrowth induced core!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223359211 Waiv's Ferg cant break through and allows my core to wall the rest of his team; Turn 24
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223361058 Tangrowth take super effective moves EZ and retaliates with sleep and knock off!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223369122 Really good battle! Tangrowth withers down team and knocks off slowkings item to insure a calm mind war victory!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223531388 Krook cant do anything to the noddles while Tangrowth puts things to sleep and knocks off items!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-223549190 Causes sleep knock off ruckis and becomes a great switch in rotom-C!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-224565065 Similar job to last battle. Comes in on something it walls and wrecks havoc!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-224764544 Tangrowth makes an opening for a Swampert Sweep!

Montage Above!​

This thing can wall Salamence! It can kill Feraligatr! It is such a problem for my opponents as they dont want stuff falling asleep and they dont want their items knocked off. Regenerator is so good as I can kill something or status something and switch to do it all over again. There are plenty of other sets that are also good like AV and LO. This thing is so bulky and diverse that I believe it needs to be higher in the rankings!
Tangrowth for B at least

I would definitely support a rise for Tanga to B. It gets a lot of really cool support moves as stated, as well as being able to run pretty customizable coverage options for teammates. One set that I think is hella underrated atm is LO 3 Attacks w/ Sleep Powder, as it can donk a lot of common switch ins to grass types with the appropriate coverage move. Additionally, it can lure in Pokemon like Salamence with HP Ice (whilst baiting DD) and really shits on a lot of threats. Very antimeta atm, and definitely deserves a rise to at least B.

 

[Pearl]

Writing /w phone so don't expect anything too elaborate. Just a bunch of comments on some of the most recent changes suggested by you guys:

Qwilfish has a unique niche which make it rly good in this meta. Intimidate plus twave and entei/hera check in s single slot along with spikes is nothing short of amazing. However, keep in mind that it is massive set up bait to reun/suicune and gives lots of free turns to mons that dont rly mind what it does (megapert, emp for example). If you use taunt to avoid that it means you have to drop tspikes or twave which are both rly good. Make it B but never bump it above that.

toed should stay near reg pert, since they both fulfill the same niche w a difference or 2. Fat water ground sr setter. Pert has ice moves and roar, toed has knock off and water absorb. It can also run a decent rain set i guess?

granbull could go up. Stops hydra, mence, hera and prob some more while having decent attack and movepool. Shame mew and bro are no longer around, but king and cress/reun can be used to recreate pink cores i guess. Fun cause i think i told aim to move this down when we were going thru the rankings hehe. B-

Not a huge fan of virizion ngl, that shit hits like a girl and idt it wins vs slowking either. it is prone to getting scalf burnt too, moreso than any other grass mon (unless you're the lord cm viri which might be decent with hp ice). Keep it where it is imo

Beedrill is a lord, drop it and ur dead. That's all. Top 3 offensive pivot, can clean, 4x resists grass and fight, can knock off shit or even use sd (more ppl should use this tbh).. One of the best megas if not the best for uu volturn teams

 

[DaSpoofy]

Writing /w phone so don't expect anything too elaborate. Just a bunch of comments on some of the most recent changes suggested by you guys:

Qwilfish has a unique niche which make it rly good in this meta. Intimidate plus twave and entei/hera check in s single slot along with spikes is nothing short of amazing. However, keep in mind that it is massive set up bait to reun/suicune and gives lots of free turns to mons that dont rly mind what it does (megapert, emp for example). Make it B but never bump it above that.

toed should stay near reg pert, since they both fulfill the same niche w a difference or 2. Fat water ground sr setter. Pert has ice moves and roar, toed has knock off and water absorb. It can also run a decent rain set i guess?

granbull could go up. Stops hydra, mence, hera and prob some more while having decent attack and movepool. Shame mew and bro are no longer around, but king and cress/reun can be used to recreate pink cores i guess. Fun cause i think i told aim to move this down when we were going thru the rankings hehe. B-

Not a huge fan of virizion ngl, that shit hits like a girl and idt it wins vs slowking either. it is prone to getting scalf burnt too, moreso than any other grass mon (unless you're the lord cm viri which might be decent with hp ice). Keep it where it is imo

That's all I think

Beedrill is a lord, drop it and ur dead. That's all. Top 3 offensive pivot, can clean, 4x resists grass and fight, can knock off shit or even use sd (more ppl should use this tbh).. One of the best megas if not the best for uu volturn teams

What about tangrowth?!?

 

[Wanka]

I would definitely support a rise for Tanga to B. It gets a lot of really cool support moves as stated, as well as being able to run pretty customizable coverage options for teammates. One set that I think is hella underrated atm is LO 3 Attacks w/ Sleep Powder, as it can donk a lot of common switch ins to grass types with the appropriate coverage move. Additionally, it can lure in Pokemon like Salamence with HP Ice (whilst baiting DD) and really shits on a lot of threats. Very antimeta atm, and definitely deserves a rise to at least B.

I can second this. LO 3 attacks with powder is insane and tangrowth in general is just a really annoying mon for opposing teams to deal with. I can definitely see B happening for it

 

[Mazz]

The biggest drawbacks to Tangrowth are it's typing, Speed, and Special Defence. Because of these three flaws, I don't see why Tangrowth shouldn't stay in B- or drop to C.

Grass typing in this metagame is nothing to write home about. CB Entei, Mega-Pidgeot, Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Beedrill, and Heracross are all common in this metagame and will quickly dispatch opposing Grass-types. Even old staples like Nidoqueen and Chandelure don't mind Grass-types. It's biggest advantage is its ability to resist Scald, which Tangrowth doesn't do very well, as it has a paltry Special Attack stat, uses Power Whip to dispatch Suicune or Slowking, and is thus crippled by a potential burn.

252+ Speed Tangrowth barely outspeeds Crocune and Roar variants of Suicune. Considering Tangrowth would be used to break Pokemon such as Suicune, I find it hard to imagine why one would use it over a proven check if you need to sacrifice bulk in order to get the chance to beat the common spreads. If you're slower, you risk getting burned, and can't really beat Suicune anymore. Against offensive Suicune sets, Tangrowth doesn't stand a Snowman's hope in Hell of coming out on top.

This is the biggest deal-breaker for Tangrowth in my opinion. It folds to nearly any Special Attack, prematurely forcing it out or simply removing it from play. This is what distinguishes Tangrowth from Amoonguss. Yes, Tangrowth takes most neutral physical attacks better, but Amoonguss' dual-typing allows it to resist a wider range of attacks, and Amoonguss will always take special attacks better than Tangrowth thanks to its higher special bulk (114 / 80 compared to 100 / 50).

Amoonguss is only ranked in B-, something which I agree with having used it a fair bit over the past week. It's got its upside, but its an extremely passive Pokemon that turns into setup fodder if the opponent is behind a Substitute or if Sleep Clause is already activated (Stun Spore is rude and misses). While Tangrowth does have more offensive upside, I still think that it is held back by being unable to tank hits from a lot of the unboosted metagame. Not to mention that Sleep Powder is significantly less reliable than Spore, making it harder to set Tangrowth up.

A lot of this Tangrowth noise is merely hype from the Iron Chef Teambuilding Competition; players have been restricted into using at least two of ten Pokemon, of which only six are remotely viable. Tangrowth is one of those six. It only works on those teams because they provide heavy support the Regenerator Pokemon.

 

[dodmen]

Dragalge: B+ to A-. This mon puts a ton of pressure on defensive builds with its access to Toxic Spikes as well as its incredibly strong Adaptability-boosted STAB attacks, which means that it can actually do huge damage to foes unlike fellow Toxic Spiker Tentacruel. Toxic Spikes are pretty good right now and they cause common defensive Pokemon like Hippo, Slowking, Florges, P2, and Chesnaught to fold more easily, and puts offensive threats like Feraligatr and Mega Swampert on a timer. Dragalge is an excellent TSpike setter because the threat of eating an Adapatability Draco Meteor forces a ton of switches. It performs incredibly against defensive/balanced teams, but it's not dead weight against offense either as its natural typing allows it to check common Fire-, Fighting-, Water-, and Grass-types. Dragon Tail is a great tool it has access to, used to rack up hazard damage and deter setup (I've seen Haze too which has the benefit of stopping stuff behind a Sub and also "recharging" your Draco Meteor).

 

[bsu]

The biggest drawbacks to Tangrowth are it's typing, Speed, and Special Defence. Because of these three flaws, I don't see why Tangrowth shouldn't stay in B- or drop to C.

Grass typing in this metagame is nothing to write home about. CB Entei, Mega-Pidgeot, Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Beedrill, and Heracross are all common in this metagame and will quickly dispatch opposing Grass-types. Even old staples like Nidoqueen and Chandelure don't mind Grass-types. It's biggest advantage is its ability to resist Scald, which Tangrowth doesn't do very well, as it has a paltry Special Attack stat, uses Power Whip to dispatch Suicune or Slowking, and is thus crippled by a potential burn.

252+ Speed Tangrowth barely outspeeds Crocune and Roar variants of Suicune. Considering Tangrowth would be used to break Pokemon such as Suicune, I find it hard to imagine why one would use it over a proven check if you need to sacrifice bulk in order to get the chance to beat the common spreads. If you're slower, you risk getting burned, and can't really beat Suicune anymore. Against offensive Suicune sets, Tangrowth doesn't stand a Snowman's hope in Hell of coming out on top.

This is the biggest deal-breaker for Tangrowth in my opinion. It folds to nearly any Special Attack, prematurely forcing it out or simply removing it from play. This is what distinguishes Tangrowth from Amoonguss. Yes, Tangrowth takes most neutral physical attacks better, but Amoonguss' dual-typing allows it to resist a wider range of attacks, and Amoonguss will always take special attacks better than Tangrowth thanks to its higher special bulk (114 / 80 compared to 100 / 50).

Amoonguss is only ranked in B-, something which I agree with having used it a fair bit over the past week. It's got its upside, but its an extremely passive Pokemon that turns into setup fodder if the opponent is behind a Substitute or if Sleep Clause is already activated (Stun Spore is rude and misses). While Tangrowth does have more offensive upside, I still think that it is held back by being unable to tank hits from a lot of the unboosted metagame. Not to mention that Sleep Powder is significantly less reliable than Spore, making it harder to set Tangrowth up.

A lot of this Tangrowth noise is merely hype from the Iron Chef Teambuilding Competition; players have been restricted into using at least two of ten Pokemon, of which only six are remotely viable. Tangrowth is one of those six. It only works on those teams because they provide heavy support the Regenerator Pokemon.

Well first off there is 0 reason for tan growth to run any speed past speed creeping like blissey or something, as it's main function is as a tank. with max hp max spdef, and either +def or +spdef nature, it can basically take one hit from any mon and do a lot of damage, then switch out and get back 33%
252+ SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 338-402 (83.6 - 99.5%)
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 320-380 (79.2 - 94%)
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 338-398 (78.2 - 92.1%)
252+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(cb megahorn kills)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 242-288 (56 - 66.6%)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 222-264 (54.9 - 65.3%)
obviously it shouldn't be your switchin, but it can take hits from many mons 1v1 and do something back/pivot out
against suicune it can apply pressure with power whip/giga drain so that either crocune is forced to rest, or the sub set doesn't get a free sub.
on the amoonguss vs tangrowth, with one set (av) tangrowth has more or less the same bulk as a fully invested amoonguss in either def or spdef. granted, if it uses av tangrowth gives up sleep powder, but regardless bulk wise amoonguss's only niche over tangrowth is its neutrality to bug types, resistance to fighting, and i guess fairy?

you can also run like band/specs tan growth but thats way more niche.

basically tangrowth is good at what it does (tank), and should at least remain B-

also excuse my writing its like 3am

 

[Schpoonman]

Spore being 100% accurate is an important distinction, that's not something that can be overlooked. It's why we use Ice Beam instead of Blizzard and Close Combat instead of High Jump Kick.

 

[DaSpoofy]

The biggest drawbacks to Tangrowth are it's typing, Speed, and Special Defence. Because of these three flaws, I don't see why Tangrowth shouldn't stay in B- or drop to C.

Grass typing in this metagame is nothing to write home about. CB Entei, Mega-Pidgeot, Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Beedrill, and Heracross are all common in this metagame and will quickly dispatch opposing Grass-types. Even old staples like Nidoqueen and Chandelure don't mind Grass-types. It's biggest advantage is its ability to resist Scald, which Tangrowth doesn't do very well, as it has a paltry Special Attack stat, uses Power Whip to dispatch Suicune or Slowking, and is thus crippled by a potential burn.

252+ Speed Tangrowth barely outspeeds Crocune and Roar variants of Suicune. Considering Tangrowth would be used to break Pokemon such as Suicune, I find it hard to imagine why one would use it over a proven check if you need to sacrifice bulk in order to get the chance to beat the common spreads. If you're slower, you risk getting burned, and can't really beat Suicune anymore. Against offensive Suicune sets, Tangrowth doesn't stand a Snowman's hope in Hell of coming out on top.

This is the biggest deal-breaker for Tangrowth in my opinion. It folds to nearly any Special Attack, prematurely forcing it out or simply removing it from play. This is what distinguishes Tangrowth from Amoonguss. Yes, Tangrowth takes most neutral physical attacks better, but Amoonguss' dual-typing allows it to resist a wider range of attacks, and Amoonguss will always take special attacks better than Tangrowth thanks to its higher special bulk (114 / 80 compared to 100 / 50).

Amoonguss is only ranked in B-, something which I agree with having used it a fair bit over the past week. It's got its upside, but its an extremely passive Pokemon that turns into setup fodder if the opponent is behind a Substitute or if Sleep Clause is already activated (Stun Spore is rude and misses). While Tangrowth does have more offensive upside, I still think that it is held back by being unable to tank hits from a lot of the unboosted metagame. Not to mention that Sleep Powder is significantly less reliable than Spore, making it harder to set Tangrowth up.

A lot of this Tangrowth noise is merely hype from the Iron Chef Teambuilding Competition; players have been restricted into using at least two of ten Pokemon, of which only six are remotely viable. Tangrowth is one of those six. It only works on those teams because they provide heavy support the Regenerator Pokemon.

If you check the previous postings on iron chef youll find that I created this team before the iron chef challenge. I didnt use tangrowth because i was forced to. I used it because feraligatr can sweep if I dont. I found out while using Tangrowth that it does a lot more than hard check feraligatr. It stops dd salamence, ruins my opponents win conditions, and leaves massive holes in my enemys team for something else to sweep.

If you watch my video or the replays youll see why its grass typing does not matter. Grass typing isnt that bad anyway in a bulky water tier.

Mazz you cannot try to critisize something you have never used. I took my Tangrowth team to top 5. The core rarely losses. Thats just with a defensive one. It can be so versitile.

Tangrowth for B

Edit: sorry im on a phone and dont have time to debunk some of that statement but maybe i will later.

 

[IronBullet]

Backing moving Dragalge up 100%. The bulky set is so good right now, cause yeah as dodmen pointed out Toxic Spikes are very effective in wearing down Slowking, Florges and Porygon2 in particular who have been rising in popularity. Even apart from T-Spikes though I find that its typing is really nice defensively. If you max out its physical defense its bulk is extremely impressive, giving it the ability to counter stuff like Heracross, Entei, Mienshao, and Mega Beedrill. I've been using a set of Sludge Wave / Draco Meteor / Scald / Toxic Spikes, and even without investment its STABs hit so hard thanks to Adaptibility. The fact that it gets Scald is just a bonus, burning physical attackers and things immune to T-Spikes.

I personally love Tangrowth. I've been using a 4 attacks Assault Vest set with Giga Drain / HP Fire / Knock Off / Rock Slide which hits decently hard and just takes so much abuse thanks to Regenerator. AV patches up its shit special defense and it is also ridiculously bulky physically even without investment, making it a great check to stuff like Gatr, Krookodile, and Cobalion and can even take super effective hits from Mega Aero in a pinch. I don't think it should rise though, its SpD is still shit even with AV and it's weak to a lot of common attacking types. I look at the rest of B- and I find that it's an acceptable place for it to be with the likes of Vappy and Gligar. Amoonguss is there too and it's atleast as good as Tangrowth with the advantage of absorbing T-Spikes and resisting Fighting and Fairy.

 

[warzoid]

Following YABO's suggestions, I've been trying out Life Orb Encore Alakazam and can confirm that it is a good set. However, I still don't see Alakazam as being A+ rank in the current meta. Offensively, Zam is great, but it's really held back by its inability to switch into anything, requiring it to be run mostly on hyper offense or on teams with a strong pivot core. If you look at the rest of the A+ ranks, you'll notice that they all have important resists and/or decent bulk (except Mienshao). Entei switches into Florges, Hydreigon's typing lets it check Chandelure, Pidgeot provides a ground immunity, and so on. All of the other A+ mons can be thrown on pretty much any bulky offense or balance team without much problem. Alakazam just doesn't have the "splashability" of the other A+ mons. It's also hard to justify using Encore Alakazam when Whimsicott exists, which provides an amazing set of resistances along with Prankster Encore to stop Dragon Dancers.

 

[YABO]

Following YABO's suggestions, I've been trying out Life Orb Encore Alakazam and can confirm that it is a good set. However, I still don't see Alakazam as being A+ rank in the current meta. Offensively, Zam is great, but it's really held back by its inability to switch into anything, requiring it to be run mostly on hyper offense or on teams with a strong pivot core. If you look at the rest of the A+ ranks, you'll notice that they all have important resists and/or decent bulk (except Mienshao).

The definition doesn't inherently imply that an A+ mon has to take hits or wall, the definition states that it either sweeps, walls, or supports. Zam can both sweep and support due to its kit. Life Orb dismantles balance through the use of encore letting it tear through would be checks. In addition, Zam does have the ability to come in on things like Suicune and other defensively minded things with its passable special bulk.

All of the other A+ mons can be thrown on pretty much any bulky offense or balance team without much problem. Alakazam just doesn't have the "splashability" of the other A+ mons.

Are you kidding me? Sash Zam is the definition of splashable. It literally requires no team support to do its job.

It's also hard to justify using Encore Alakazam when Whimsicott exists, which provides an amazing set of resistances along with Prankster Encore to stop Dragon Dancers.

Whimsicott doesn't invalidate Zam in the slightest. Encore on Zam is used to muscle through its counters not to stop Dragon Dance sweeps (hello focus sash...). The move encore has always been an incredible boon to have and I don't understand why having something else in the tier use it hurts Zam's viability in the slightest, especially considering Whimsicott is a little girl on the playground compared to the big bad bully named Alakazam.

It seems a lot of your arguments focus on the fact that Zam has two sets that do very different things. This should increase viability, not detract from it. Life Orb variants can bluff Focus Sash, forcing your opponents to think twice before attempting that Scarf Mence sweep. Meanwhile, your bluff pays off and you 2hko that Florges trying to switch in on you. The two sets play differently and that has to be taken into account.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UnderUsed metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

It seems pretty clear to me that Alakazam fits most if not all of this definition. Encore Zam doesn't need support, it provides support. Sash Zam fits on pretty much any team due to the nature of what it packs in its moveset. Even Calm Mind variants threaten to wallbreak common defensive cores with no trouble at all. Overall, Zam's versatility, power, and unpredictability lend itself perfectly to A+ rank.

 

[Lilligant for OU]

If you check the previous postings on iron chef youll find that I created this team before the iron chef challenge. I didnt use tangrowth because i was forced to. I used it because feraligatr can sweep if I dont. I found out while using Tangrowth that it does a lot more than hard check feraligatr. It stops dd salamence, ruins my opponents win conditions, and leaves massive holes in my enemys team for something else to sweep.

If you watch my video or the replays youll see why its grass typing does not matter. Grass typing isnt that bad anyway in a bulky water tier.

Mazz you cannot try to critisize something you have never used. I took my Tangrowth team to top 5. The core rarely losses. Thats just with a defensive one. It can be so versitile.

Tangrowth for B

Edit: sorry im on a phone and dont have time to debunk some of that statement but maybe i will later.

To be completely fair, he has every right to criticize whatever he wants. If he criticizes tangrowth despite the fact he has never used it, he probably never used it for a reason. Like how I like using Ninjask with a Choice Band, everyone judges it despite the fact they've never used it, and they have a right to, it's not good.

 

[Wanka]

The thing with tangrowth being compared to amoongus in my opinion is that amoongus has been looked at for a bump to B as well so I honestly could see both of those guys moving up as amoongus bulk and typing are very good when played correctly and can be synergized very nicely with some cores. And while amoongus has the bulk and typing over tangrowth, tangrowth also has the ability to go on the offensive which amoongus cannot really do nearly as well. Life orb tangrowth is no joke. however as much as I would like to see it get bumped to B, B- fits tangrowth very nicely and I can really understand some of the counter arguments as they do prove some valid points.

Edit: In terms of dragalge getting a bump, I can completely support this. Dragalge has a very good defensive typing for this meta and with invested physical defense it can become a threatening duel wall that widdles teams with toxic spikes. Having adaptability is pretty much just having a choice specs on it at all times and can retain good power in a bulky set. Dragalge is arguably the best t spiker in the tier and is a staple on bulky offense and even hyper offense teams sometimes as they really appreciate the toxic spikes help.

 

[DaSpoofy]

To be completely fair, he has every right to criticize whatever he wants. If he criticizes tangrowth despite the fact he has never used it, he probably never used it for a reason. Like how I like using Ninjask with a Choice Band, everyone judges it despite the fact they've never used it, and they have a right to, it's not good.

Thats like saying belly drum Azumaril is bad because you always use choice band. This post does not justify ignorance.

Edit: Or like saying swiss is better than cheddar but never tried cheddar.