ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

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No rank for Trapinch imo, even though DatLatias managed to beat me with one back in xy,,

Trapinch needs way more support than sheddy does, as it is absolutely and utterly useless without TR support, and even then, its performance is almost completely dependent on the 'mons that the opponents are running.
 
dingbat said:
No rank for Trapinch imo, even though DatLatias managed to beat me with one back in xy,,

Trapinch needs way more support than sheddy does, as it is absolutely and utterly useless without TR support, and even then, its performance is almost completely dependent on the 'mons that the opponents are running.
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Building off of this, even Duggy can support the team with its speed and SR/Memento
 
Well now that we're nomming shit like Trapinch I'd like to nominate Pawniard to at least ranked.
pawniard.png
Pawniard has some pretty mediocre bulk and it's not very strong but it's typing can allow it find many set-up opportunities. Pawniard also has an amazing ability in Defiant which allows you to grab a Swords Dance boost essentially from your opponent Defogging. It also has powerful priority with Sucker Punch which makes a sweep possible. With an Eviolite boosting it's defenses it can switch in safely on Crobat, Forretress, and Mandibuzz quite safely. While you can't do much to Mandibuzz because of it's enormous bulk you can SD on it's face (If it Defogged you'll be at +4, +4 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 171-201 (74 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and you can do about 53-62% damage back to it with an Iron Head. If you don't flinch it, it's weakened and can't reliably Defog again. On Forretress and Crobat you can SD on them as well and threaten them out. Don't underestimate this thing, +2 Knock Offs hurt Offense and you get the bonus of removing their item.

Replay:UU replay: pokemonisfun vs. TGDD - Pokémon Showdown
Calcs: http://pastebin.com/MLeqsDNS

So yeah I think Pawniard should be ranked. I've played Hairy Toenail, dodmen and YABO with Pawniard and I beat Hairy Toenail and dodmen didn't save the replay though.
Edit: Put calcs in pastebin.​
 
What about how it does against common defoggers like empoleon and the like? That seems like a awesome niche for it to fill just like it does in lower tiers.
Dad's Dad said:
Well now that we're nomming shit like Trapinch I'd like to nominate Pawniard to at least ranked.
pawniard.png
Pawniard has some pretty mediocre bulk and it's not very strong but it's typing can allow it find many set-up opportunities. Pawniard also has an amazing ability in Defiant which allows you to grab a Swords Dance boost essentially from your opponent Defogging. It also has powerful priority with Sucker Punch which makes a sweep possible. With an Eviolite boosting it's defenses it can switch in safely on Crobat, Forretress, and Mandibuzz quite safely. While you can't do much to Mandibuzz because of it's enormous bulk you can SD on it's face (If it Defogged you'll be at +4, +4 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 171-201 (74 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and you can do about 53-62% damage back to it with an Iron Head. If you don't flinch it, it's weakened and can't reliably Defog again. On Forretress and Crobat you can SD on them as well and threaten them out. Don't underestimate this thing, +2 Knock Offs hurt Offense and you get the bonus of removing their item.

Replay:UU replay: pokemonisfun vs. TGDD - Pokémon Showdown
Calcs: http://pastebin.com/MLeqsDNS

So yeah I think Pawniard should be ranked. I've played Hairy Toenail, dodmen and YABO with Pawniard and I beat Hairy Toenail and dodmen didn't save the replay though.
Edit: Put calcs in pastebin.​
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Well, coming in Empoleon is a bit riskier because of Scald but if it Defogs +2 Knock Off does a fuckton, and can't Defog again.
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Empoleon: 288-339 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Torrent Empoleon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 192-226 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Yellow Skarmory said:
I have a very weird nom that i'm pretty sure like no-one is gonna agree on, but…

TRAPINCH FOR C RANK

This thing is for a trapper in TR. If it gets into something for free, it can KO it normally. The thing is, getting in. It is best used as a revenge killer with CB from my usage of it, since it has 45/45/45 defenses.

My set is…
Trapinch @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

I've been using it on a TR team, and it's been doing well. The only tour i did with this i got to the semis. There are some replays that i have though with it, but some of them show my opps making mistakes or my opponent being bad.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239898427
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239898459
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239910074
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239914631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240096438
(Btw i'm TrickRoomTrapinch)
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I second this because although it requires stupid amounts of support it is useful, but everyone hates Lord Trappy so no rank for it sorry yellowskarm let them have their Pawniard
 
If trickroom lasted 8 turns I would be in support of Trapinch. In fact if trickroom lasted 8 turns I believe ot would be the most viable play style in Pokemon.
 
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Yellow Skarmory said:
I have a very weird nom that i'm pretty sure like no-one is gonna agree on, but…

TRAPINCH FOR C RANK

This thing is for a trapper in TR. If it gets into something for free, it can KO it normally. The thing is, getting in. It is best used as a revenge killer with CB from my usage of it, since it has 45/45/45 defenses.

My set is…
Trapinch @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Earthquake
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Superpower

I've been using it on a TR team, and it's been doing well. The only tour i did with this i got to the semis. There are some replays that i have though with it, but some of them show my opps making mistakes or my opponent being bad.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239898427
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239898459
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239910074
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-239914631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-240096438
(Btw i'm TrickRoomTrapinch)
Click to expand...

If we're going to rank all mons that are viable in Trick Room we might as well rank Octillery, Rampardos, Marowak, Ursaring, etc.
 
ok I think I'll nominate something that I think we should discuss. It's Salamence rise to S rank or what is keeping Mence in A+ rank.

The council decided at some point that Salamence should drop his previous S rank for Hydreigon instead, which is something I complete disagree. Although I do not want to discuss Hydreigon drop, I'd say Hydregion most viable set is the LO Taunt/Roost. Scarf Hydreigon is an OK pivot and revenge killer, but lacks some power. The Specs sets, while very powerful, can be played around, doesn't have a great speed tie and it kind sucks to be choice locked on a move.

I'm only saying this because, while Hydreigon most viable set is LO Taunt/Roost/, I could argue that almost every set Salamence can run is a "most viable set". I mean, everyday we see some new variation of Salamence, over tours, ladder and forums. I will name a few: Scarf Moxie Mence, DD Moxie Mence, DD MixMence, MixMence, Defensive Fat Mence, Refresh DD Bulky Mence, Offensive Defogger, Special Mence, etc. All of this sets can essentially lure, sweep, defog, phaze, do whatever it is meant to do. Yes, it get walled by other mons like every other mon, but Salamence is versatily as shit, and can easily be played in every playstyle, doing his job extremely well in every them. It has very few switch ins, and can still find ways to beat some of his counters. I'd like to see some thoughts tho.
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Dodmen brought up a nom for Heliolisk to B+, and I agree that it should maybe drop to A- due to the stated reasons against but no more. Its immunity to water is so, so much better than just resisting it, since scald burns and rocks can really wear down Rotom when switching into stuff like Cune and Emp. It also needs to run Specs to beat Cune since it is doing 0 to it at +1, or it can trick the scarf I guess but you better hope the opponent doesn't switch. I can say from experience that the very presence of a Heliolisk makes my Suicune useless since I am terrified to ever click scald until it dies, but for stuff like Rotom, Roserade, etc I don't care that much since burns can help me.
 
Just a few changes I think should be made:

Drapion: B- > C
This thing lost most of its viability when alakazam left the tier to be honest. It still has a neat typing and tspikes, but it's not really relevant to the uu meta anymore.

Blissey: B- > B
It's really good on stall you guys it's just that noone plays it. Passivity arguments are cool and all but running rocks it turns that around on bulky special shit that used it as hazard fodder/spin fodder before. I mean obviously it shits out turns to set up sweepers like Sub Coba or Hera but since you're running this on stall you should have reliable switchins for that shit.

Noivern: B > B-
Why is this in the same rank as rotom-h and umbreon. Outclassed in basically all roles by mence/pidgeot/hydrei who all have more power than noivern and in pidge's case has almost the same speed tier.
 
I don't think Noivern should move down actually, it has a solid niche in the current meta as one of the few mons to outspeed mega bird while not occupying a mega slot, and wins 1v1. It also has taunt to annoy and wear down common switch ins and has great coverage. Its power is a little underwhelming considering its inaccuracy but I think B is a good place it- it's more that both Rotom-H and Umbreon need to move up more than anything imo.
 
Skankovich said:
I don't think Noivern should move down actually, it has a solid niche in the current meta as one of the few mons to outspeed mega bird while not occupying a mega slot, and wins 1v1. It also has taunt to annoy and wear down common switch ins and has great coverage. Its power is a little underwhelming considering its inaccuracy but I think B is a good place it- it's more that both Rotom-H and Umbreon need to move up more than anything imo.
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Wait, wait, wait. If it's niche is outspeeding mega bird without taking up a mega slot, the why isn't Jolteon in this tier? I might be a bit biased, of course, as jolty is my favorite Pokemon. But he can outspeed and KILL mega bird with RELIABLE stab. Noivern may have switcheroo and taunt. But here's the thing: once you run noivern, good luck running another dragon without mamo ruining your day. If noivern is in this tier, Jolteon more than deserves at least a rise to B- (as its movepool is admittedly crap)

EDIT: And before you say that Jolteon is also putting a weakness to mamo on the team. I've mentioned before that HP grass on jolty is the HP to go with, which scores an easy 2HKO on mamo. So mamo can't get a safe switch in.
 
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Ducem said:
Wait, wait, wait. If it's niche is outspeeding mega bird without taking up a mega slot, the why isn't Jolteon in this tier? I might be a bit biased, of course, as jolty is my favorite Pokemon. But he can outspeed and KILL mega bird with RELIABLE stab. Noivern may have switcheroo and taunt. But here's the thing: once you run noivern, good luck running another dragon without mamo ruining your day. If noivern is in this tier, Jolteon more than deserves at least a rise to B- (as its movepool is admittedly crap)

EDIT: And before you say that Jolteon is also putting a weakness to mamo on the team. I've mentioned before that HP grass on jolty is the HP to go with, which scores an easy 2HKO on mamo. So mamo can't get a safe switch in.
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The reason why I think Noivern should be higher than Jolteon, is because it actually has usable bulk and resistances to speak of, allowing it to switch into a decent amount of offensive pokemon, and then revenge kill.

For example, it can switch into Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick or Knock Off, Infernape's Fire STAB or Close Combat, Heliolisk's Surf or Grass Knot, Shaymin's Seed Flare, Mega Sharpedo's Waterfall, and Azelf's Flamethrower. Then it can proceed to revenge-kill all of these with a powerful Draco Meteor.

You will notice that all the pokemon in the above list are pokemon that outspeed Salamence, and offensive variants of Salamence cannot switch safely into most of them and then revenge kill (even Mienshao/Infernape because of Stone Edge or HP ice). Because Noivern can, with good predicition, this gives Noivern a reasonable niche as an offensive pivot.
 
I've been using Noivern for a bit and it just smashes offense, offense literally has nothing that wants to come in on a Draco or Hurricane. It's Dragon/Flying typing along with its bulk (Which is the exact same as Crobat's) allows it to switch in to moves like Fire Blast and Scald. The problem with Noivern is how weak it is against bulkier shit but even then it's actually not that weak.
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 133-156 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's also the 2nd fastest Dragon-type in the tier being able to revenge kill all non-scarfed Dragons except Mega-Sceptile. It also has 2 good abilities in Frisk and in Infiltrator. Frisk allows you to see what item your opponent is holding, when I was playing on ladder this was useful to see if their Dragon was Scarfed. It also let me see that dodmen's Azelf wasn't Sashed. Infiltrator allows you to hit behind Subs and screens. I haven't personally used it but it works well for Crobat I guess. I really don't think Noivern should drop to B-.
 
Ducem said:
Wait, wait, wait. If it's niche is outspeeding mega bird without taking up a mega slot, the why isn't Jolteon in this tier? I might be a bit biased, of course, as jolty is my favorite Pokemon. But he can outspeed and KILL mega bird with RELIABLE stab. Noivern may have switcheroo and taunt. But here's the thing: once you run noivern, good luck running another dragon without mamo ruining your day. If noivern is in this tier, Jolteon more than deserves at least a rise to B- (as its movepool is admittedly crap)

EDIT: And before you say that Jolteon is also putting a weakness to mamo on the team. I've mentioned before that HP grass on jolty is the HP to go with, which scores an easy 2HKO on mamo. So mamo can't get a safe switch in.
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By adding an electric type you are adding a weakness to mamo. You're going to want to click your electric STAB pretty much all the time as it's the only way you're going to be doing any meaningful damage. This forces you into a prediction game every time you're in. Also, Jolteon is extremely frail to the point where it'll find itself getting killed by Mamoswine's Ice Shard within 1-2 times volt switching as it does over half.
 
Dad's Dad said:
I've been using Noivern for a bit and it just smashes offense, offense literally has nothing that wants to come in on a Draco or Hurricane. It's Dragon/Flying typing along with its bulk (Which is the exact same as Crobat's) allows it to switch in to moves like Fire Blast and Scald. The problem with Noivern is how weak it is against bulkier shit but even then it's actually not that weak.
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 133-156 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's also the 2nd fastest Dragon-type in the tier being able to revenge kill all non-scarfed Dragons except Mega-Sceptile. It also has 2 good abilities in Frisk and in Infiltrator. Frisk allows you to see what item your opponent is holding, when I was playing on ladder this was useful to see if their Dragon was Scarfed. It also let me see that dodmen's Azelf wasn't Sashed. Infiltrator allows you to hit behind Subs and screens. I haven't personally used it but it works well for Crobat I guess. I really don't think Noivern should drop to B-.
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agreed, noivern really isnt as bad as everyone thinks. it kind of does the same as pidgeot in terms of destroying offense. the fact that it gets Taunt too assists it great versus stall as well. Other downsides is hurricane isnt reliable. but yea noivern is fine.
 
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YABO said:
By adding an electric type you are adding a weakness to mamo. You're going to want to click your electric STAB pretty much all the time as it's the only way you're going to be doing any meaningful damage. This forces you into a prediction game every time you're in. Also, Jolteon is extremely frail to the point where it'll find itself getting killed by Mamoswine's Ice Shard within 1-2 times volt switching as it does over half.
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Okay, fair points. But also, this tier is also the same one with suicune, mega bird, and swampert. So it's safe to say that Jolteon puts a lot of offensive pressure to a lot of top-tier threats. I'm still in belief that jolty deserves a rise in the ranks. Both Pokemon are able to do the same niche (outspeeding and punishing a lot of pokes) whilst also having a few quirks to further help them. Noivern may in the end be the better Pokemon to use (I wouldn't know too much about him, only used him on one or two teams before). That doesn't change the fact that jolty is still ranked a bit too low for what it does. C rank is for Pokemon that have a minor niche in the meta game. Outspeeding most of the unboosted/unscarfed metagame, including a few key threats, and forcing them out is hardly what is call minor. So I still stand for Jolteon's rise to B-
 
Ducem said:
Wait, wait, wait. If it's niche is outspeeding mega bird without taking up a mega slot, the why isn't Jolteon in this tier? I might be a bit biased, of course, as jolty is my favorite Pokemon. But he can outspeed and KILL mega bird with RELIABLE stab. Noivern may have switcheroo and taunt. But here's the thing: once you run noivern, good luck running another dragon without mamo ruining your day. If noivern is in this tier, Jolteon more than deserves at least a rise to B- (as its movepool is admittedly crap)

EDIT: And before you say that Jolteon is also putting a weakness to mamo on the team. I've mentioned before that HP grass on jolty is the HP to go with, which scores an easy 2HKO on mamo. So mamo can't get a safe switch in.
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Tethering your Jolteon nomination to an unrelated mon is kind of underselling your points. Jolteon and Noivern are both fast and anti-offense, but the things they deal with aren't similar. They both outspeed Mega Pidgeot and that's where the similarities end from a teambuilding perspective as far as I can tell. Compare like to like. How is Jolteon an asset in this meta compared to Heliolisk, its direct competition? What does it deal with that gives it a niche in teambuilding? Work your argument from that angle instead of pitting it against tenuously related nominations.
 
yamb said:
Tethering your Jolteon nomination to an unrelated mon is kind of underselling your points. Jolteon and Noivern are both fast and anti-offense, but the things they deal with aren't similar. They both outspeed Mega Pidgeot and that's where the similarities end from a teambuilding perspective as far as I can tell. Compare like to like. How is Jolteon an asset in this meta compared to Heliolisk, its direct competition? What does it deal with that gives it a niche in teambuilding? Work your argument from that angle instead of pitting it against tenuously related nominations.
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Oh, well I assumed everyone here knew how Jolteon was different from helio. Better speed, slightly higher SpA, and a decent momentum stopper with volt absorb, in which he can the volt switch back and reverse said momentum. He obviously misses dry skin for a few free switch ins. But I find jolty to be like mamo in the sense that once he's in, unless the opponent has a healthy ground type handy, Jolteon is going to do some/assist with some damage. Nothing really wants to take a thunderbolt barring ground types and Special walls, and special walls aren't a fan of volt switch. So I personally think jolty deserves a rise, as it has a few obvious edges over helio
 
In regards to Jolteon, in my opinion it is ok. The main thing that sets it apart from helio is its coverage. Heliolisk gets surf and grass knot, as well as dark pulse. Jolteon does not. Instead, it gets shadow ball and signal beam. I don't think that's an equal trade. If they had the exact same movepool, Jolteon would be OP as hell, at least in UU. Jolteon has waaaaay better speed than Helio and 1 point higher in SpAtk, which doesn't really earn any significant OHKOs or 2HKOs. Jolteon isn't the best. Sure, it can beat Krook with signal beam, but it has no way to beat Mamo and swamp, which helio can. It also can't beat mega-Aero unless scarfed, similarly to Helio. And then you have the real kicker: dry skin. In a tier with Suicune, Milotic, Alomomola, Vaporeon, Swampert, and many others, scald is a giant nuisance, which heliolisk can get rid of with its great ability. Jolteon can't and because of that is inferior, even though it has higher stats.
 
lllg17 said:
In regards to Jolteon, in my opinion it is ok. The main thing that sets it apart from helio is its coverage. Heliolisk gets surf and grass knot, as well as dark pulse. Jolteon does not. Instead, it gets shadow ball and signal beam. I don't think that's an equal trade. If they had the exact same movepool, Jolteon would be OP as hell, at least in UU. Jolteon has waaaaay better speed than Helio and 1 point higher in SpAtk, which doesn't really earn any significant OHKOs or 2HKOs. Jolteon isn't the best. Sure, it can beat Krook with signal beam, but it has no way to beat Mamo and swamp, which helio can. It also can't beat mega-Aero unless scarfed, similarly to Helio. And then you have the real kicker: dry skin. In a tier with Suicune, Milotic, Alomomola, Vaporeon, Swampert, and many others, scald is a giant nuisance, which heliolisk can get rid of with its great ability. Jolteon can't and because of that is inferior, even though it has higher stats.
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I agree that Helio is generally superior to Jolteon because of its better coverage and Dry Skin, but Surf or Grass Knot from Helio both do more to Krook than Jolteon's Signal Beam :p
 
Which is why helio is higher on the viability rankings. Jolteon needs a rise because it has a niche in outspeeding a few key threats that helio simply can't do (namely mega pidgeot). And it can stop momentum with volt absorb. It may not be better than helio in general, but it still deserves that rise. And before I forget, in regards to mega aerodactyl. Mega aero doesn't run max speed, meaning you either have to run protect for a safe mega evolution (lol) or just not use aero while Jolteon's on the floor, unless you want to take a thunderbolt to the face.
 
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