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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

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Nightingales said:
Bronzing, for one. Cress, Rotom-H. And Crocune gives zero shits about your puny ice moves.
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here some calc of those mons
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Suicune is not a switch in cuz barely isnt 2hko by EQ so u have a choice go for scald and almost lose suicune or click rest and realy on the sleep talk turns. Is a nice check imo ngl

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 198-234 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery rekt

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 104-123 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Rotom-H is a nice switch to Mamo althought is weak to rocks and easily wear down, maybe some random guy is running Sedge Mamo 0.0

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-229 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Swich in ?
 
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DennisEG said:
here some calc of those mons
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Suicune is not a switch in cuz barely isnt 2hko by EQ so u have a choice go for scald and almost lose suicune or click rest and realy on the sleep talk turns. Is a nice check imo ngl

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 198-234 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery rekt

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 104-123 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Rotom-H is a nice switch to Mamo althought is weak to rocks and easily wear down, maybe some random guy is running Sedge Mamo 0.0

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-229 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Swich in ?
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If you're running adamant, you're prone to Gatr, Heracross, Lucario, Chandelure and so much more threats which you'd have taken care/hurt if u were jolly. Plus it's like Heracross, Heracross doesn't have a wall except for Fat Mence and Granbull but it's frail, just like Mamoswine. It deserves it's A+.
 
Mamoswine gets that one Knock Off and suddenly it's only a 3HKO. Cress heals the damage off easily, Bronzong 2HKOs with Gyro Ball, and Suicune 2HKOs with Scald at the worst. Meanwhile, Adamant Mamoswine is immensely slow, not that Jolly would help seeing as how Timid Specs Rotom-H outspeeds and OHKOs through Thick Fat with Overheat. Rotom-H straight-up doesn't care about that Mamoswine set you posted if it doesn't have Knock Off (you disn't list Stone Edge), while Alomomola beats it if it doesn't have Freeze-Dry, and it beats it if it has any sort of SpDef investment.

We've had Heracross for a few months now who is an immensely superior wallbreaker, I don't know why people are losing their shit over Mamoswine now.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to say heracross is an IMMENSLY better wallbreaker than mamo because they are both extremely good at what they do. Nobody is losing their shit anymore or at least they shouldn't be. Mamo is a top tier wallbreaker in this tier and if it gets in safely it can cause problems for cores but definitely not S rank worthy as there are plenty of realized checks that have emerged for it. If you are going to argue mamo for S rank arguing that it has the potential ability to beat offensive checks with ice shard would be the way to go imo but even then I wouldn't say mamo for S.
 
This may be a controversial nom but I have to at least try. Mega Blastoise for A+.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much, but my best teams all have Mega Blastoise on it, and I do not think it is a coincidence. It's main niche is being the only Rapid Spinner in UU that isn't passive garbage (except Donphan I guess but Donphan sucks). Yeah it uses a Mega, but it does its role so well that the opportunity cost shouldn't weigh it down.

As you all know, it has tremendous bulk and SpA, reaching 405 with max investment. Its SpA, coupled with its wide movepool and ability that essentially gives it pseudoSTABs, very few things can even switch in on it. In my experience, the only sure fire counters are Blissey and Suicune. Florges takes a solid 40-50% from Hydro Pump, so it MUST be fully healthy to switch in. Ice beam smacks grass switch ins, and Aura Sphere smacks Umbreon, P2 , Empoleon, and Snorlax. The only moves that are guaranteed on every Blastoise set are Dark Pulse and Rapid Spin, so facing one requires scouting before you blindly switch in what you thought was your Blastoise check into a move that KOs you. I personally run enough speed to outpace Suicune, so I can at least fire off an attack before it CMs and deal a solid 30ish percent.

79/120/115 is also amazing bulk. It eats up neutral hits and can take non STAB super effective hits at full health. Its bulk allows it to check many threats like Aero, Mence, Gatr, etc and smack them with one of your pseudoSTABs, STAB, or ice beam. It takes +2 Crunches, +1 Outrages, and +1 Stone Edges and either KOs these threats are does significant damage

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-232973350 This replay shows a team with no Blastoise switch ins outside of Suicune. And once it was worn down, my opponent was forced to sack his/her PZ to wear my Blastoise down. This replay also shows how damn bulky Stoise is by surviving a PZ Tbolt.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-233241515 This replay demonstrates that even the almighty Porygon2 is not a sure fire counter to Blastoise. Burns + Aura Sphere can take it down.
 
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Jaguar360 said:
Cresselia completely walls Mamoswine. Rotom-H deals with Mamoswine really well, only being hit significantly by the uncommon Stone Edge. Suicune is just barely 3HKOed by Earthquake and Freeze-Dry. Mamo needs Knock Off to have a chance of beating Porygon2. Forretress is 3HKOed, though the lack of recovery is a bit of an issue there. Alomomola can beat Mamoswine with enough SpD investment.

Though there are few, Mamoswine definitely has defensive answers and his lack of a boosting move makes this easier. While his premier answers in OU are not in this tier, that does not mean that it has no answers in UU. His UU answers are just uncommon in OU, which is to be expected.

While he is harder to switch into on offense, Mamo has a difficult time coming in due to its mediocre speed, bulk and typing. Scarf/Specs Rotom-H and Heracross are examples of offensive Pokemon who can switch into at least a few of its moves and OHKO in return. Mamoswine is fine in A+.
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Mamo is extremely difficult to check defensively and stall teams pretty much have to rely on life orb recoil to take it down. There are no outright counters. The only consistent mamo check we have in this tier is cresselia, which can't do a lot back to it in return. Suicune struggles under repeated hits and has to keep resting to remain at full health to check mamo every time it switches in. Mamo is often paired with helio too so it can often use this opportunity to gain momentum. Alomo is a decent check but gets beaten by freeze dry and faces the same problem with mamo-helio cores. P2 is a bad check because all sets carry knock off. Rotom-H would be good but unfortunately has no reliable recovery and a rocks weakness which limits its ability to check mamo repeatedly. Then we start scraping the bottom of the barrel for things like Weezing. Additionally every single one of these pokemon except for alomo gets beaten by endeavour and mamo still gets a free turn to set up rocks.

The best way for stall to deal with mamo is actually defensive defog moltres. It can creep the adamant sets, defog the rocks, burn it, roost off endevours, etc - as long as it's not running stone edge. Moltres wouldn't be that great otherwise, but right now it's great because mamo is so common, that using a team slot for a pokemon 4x weak to rocks is pretty justified.

Pretty much, stall teams have to run two of the aforementioned checks to be safe. I don't know how it goes against offence but I assume Ice Shard would be pretty annoying for that. Mamo should be S. Ice/Ground STAB is too brutal for this tier.

EDIT: Also, Hera unlike Mamo has actual counters lol. Like things that can repeatedly switch into it with relative safety and don't have to worry about sacrificing themselves to an endeavour or something.

Also I feel like Mega Bird should be S as well. A lot of people think this is broken. The fact that it can break through its checks with confusion hax from a 100% accurate 110 BP STAB move with great coverage speaks for itself.
 
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Lapras! said:
Mamo is extremely difficult to check defensively and stall teams pretty much have to rely on life orb recoil to take it down. There are no outright counters. The only consistent mamo check we have in this tier is cresselia, which can't do a lot back to it in return
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Cresselia can heal off and Mamoswine has no reliable recovery, so it'll be worn down with the LO recoil as well. Furthermore, Cresselia can Calm Mind and use Mamoswine as a set-up bait as well. Moreover, it depends on the player's skills whether they'll stay in or switch out, and predicting that gives the game in your favour. Mamoswine users need a way to switch in, because switching mamo in is very hard, mostly because it's frail, bad typing and LO recoil sucks.

Lapras! said:
Suicune struggles under repeated hits and has to keep resting to remain at full health to check mamo every time it switches in. Mamo is often paired with helio too so it can often use this opportunity to gain momentum. Alomo is a decent check but gets beaten by freeze dry and faces the same problem with mamo-helio cores. P2 is a bad check because all sets carry knock off. Rotom-H would be good but unfortunately has no reliable recovery and a rocks weakness which limits its ability to check mamo repeatedly. Then we start scraping the bottom of the barrel for things like Weezing. Additionally every single one of these pokemon except for alomo gets beaten by endeavour and mamo still gets a free turn to set up rocks.
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I agree with you here, Mamoswine+Heliolisk core is a great one, but it's not unstoppable, constantly switching out and in with your Suicune and Blissey with rocks on the opponents field will wear them down. I believe this is how you killed my Mamoswine. Freeze Dry is used only for cteaming and nothing else because it gives Mamoswine a worse movepool; you have to stop using Icicle Crash or Knock Off or Ice Shard for this which are all very valuable to this thing. On the other hand, Sash Endeavor Mamoswine is obviously a pain for stall, just like Azelf, just like Heracross, just like Work Up Refresh Pidgeot, just like Gatr, you have to play around them which showcases your skills of a great stall player.
 
Lapras! said:
Also I feel like Mega Bird should be S as well. A lot of people think this is broken. The fact that it can break through its checks with confusion hax from a 100% accurate 110 BP STAB move with great coverage speaks for itself.
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This should have been done long ago. Bird Jesus is an exceptionally good mon in the tier. With two attacking moves it manages great coverage, both of which have perfect accuracy. Furthermore, its speed is through the roof, and its SpA is bonkers too. Mega Bird for S.

As for Mamo, I disagree that it deserves S. It suffers from 4MSS in a big way (I wanna run SR/Shard/EQ/SE/FD/SP/KO) and struggles to break walls such as Cress (that calc posted is NOT accurate, KO loses power on second hit, allowing Cress to stall). The argument "Cress can't do anything back" is really poor as well, since in tandem with LO recoil Mamo will die quickly anyways. Not to mention, unlike something like Flame Orb Heracross, it actually has switching. Stay in A+.
 
I don't agree that Mamoswine has 4MSS? It has a fantastic STAB combo (most effective SE coverage in the game, literally the best STAB combo in UU?) which provides it with the majority of its usefulness and pressure, allowing it to 2hko almost every pokemon in 2 moveslots- then in addition it has good coverage options which allow it to beat several of its checks. As a SR setter it has priority and the coverage to scare out/force the hand of a large number of leads and defoggers/rapid spinners in just its STABs, allowing it to be very successful, and the Life Orb set has such a tiny amount of switch-ins considering just STABs as well.

Just because you have a good additional options outside of your STABs doesnt mean you necessarily have 4MSS as an attacker- thats more for when you just cant achieve a fantastic amount of coverage or cover all of your weaknesses in a few moves, limiting your ability to run other moves for mons that prevent you from doing what you want. Mega Banette has 4MSS because its almost forced to run protect and taunt to allow it to fully abuse priority destiny bond, and then it is also basically forced to run a STAB attack. That means it has no options to beat the many pokemon that can deal with that set. Mamoswine imo doesnt have 4MSS because not only does it excel using just its STAB combo which has very few flaws in the first place, but it has room to also deal with almost all of the mons that can deal with it with the appropriate coverage move, as well as the option for additional utility in the final slot with SR or even Roar.
I still dont think its S rank but its not because it has 4MSS
 
Mamoswine absolutely has 4MSS. Strictly speaking, Earthquake and Ice Shard are non-negotiable. Earthquake hits extremely hard and Ice Shard is honestly what sells Mamoswine, its combination of perfect STAB (four of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier are weak to Ice: Mega Aero, Mega Pidgeot, Salamence, and Hydreigon) and base 130 Attack make it a must-have. That leaves you with two slots to decide between (in rough order of viability) Knock Off, Superpower, Stone Edge, Icicle Crash/Icicle Spear, Freeze-Dry, and Stealth Rock. No Knock Off means you're hard-walled by Bronzong and to an extent Cresselia (252/252+ Cress really doesn't give a shit what you have unless you land multiple Icicle Crash flinches), without Superpower Snorlax uses you for set-up fodder, Stone Edge is your best option for Rotom-H, but only on the switch-in, PDef Donphan walls you without Icicle Crash or Icicle Spear, Alo walls your entire moveset and then some without Freeze-Dry (you can go mixed, but are then threatened by a 2HKO from 252+ LO EQ, which is more than easily scouted for thanks to Regenerator), and Stealth Rock just means you flat-out lose to a fuckton of Pokemon because of your lack of coverage.

Ground/Ice is pretty incredible STAB coverage, but Mamoswine's lack of speed necessitating Ice Shard hurts it badly. I agree, good options outside of your STAB doesn't automatically mean 4MSS. But lack of space to account for all threats DOES mean 4MSS, which Mamoswine does have. No, he's not Infernape, who wishes it could run (for an example on a physical set) SD/Flare Blitz/CC/Thunder Punch/Mach Punch/Stone Edge/U-turn, but something will be left unaccounted for in Mamoswine's 4 slots.
 
In that case, there isnt a single all-out-attacker in UU that doesnt have 4MSS since all are stopped by something. I dont really see how Mamo's is worse than any of the other pokemon that compete for the same roles. I get that every pokemon including top tier pokemon have counters for every set of 4 moves they use, but for some the hindrance is more than others, and Mamoswine achieves far superior coverage against the entire tier than most other mons.
Also as a lead Mamoswine succeeds heavily in its ability to set up stealth rock whilst also having a good matchup vs other common leads, rapid spinners and defoggers which is what you want from a SR setter. I dont see the 4MSS here when its desired matchups are different as a SR setter than as an all-out attacker.
 
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The closest thing we have to a truly unwalled Pokemon is mixed Hydreigon with Draco/Dark Pulse/Iron Tail/Superpower. He hits every major Special wall super effectively and there are few if any other Pokemon that want to take Draco Meteor or Dark Pulse, but that's a GOOD thing that there are so few if any Pokemon that cannot be walled.

Lead Mamoswine may have a good match-up against other leads, but that doesn't mean he doesn't suffer from 4MSS. Should Mamoswine survive the opening match-up, he's now forced to confront the fact that he cannot wallbreak effectively against more defensive teams. EQ/IS/KO/SR may be a potent lead, but without Life Orb he's failing to properly pressure Suicune with Earthquake. Mamoswine is a very powerful attacker, but he's not S-ranked.
 
Check my post above, I said I dont think Mamo should be S ranked. What I'm saying is that saying Mamoswine has 4MSS is not a reasonable argument since while he is unable to cover every single pokemon in the tier with a single set of 4 moves, that applies to literally every single pokemon (including Hydreigon and the other S ranks). Mamoswine gets a lot more coverage into 4 moves against the entire tier (including top threats) than the vast majority of the UU tier, which is a big part of why he's so threatening in the first place. Im fully against Mamoswine being S tier for now
 
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Ok so let's see what actually checks Mamoswine: Cresselia, Bronzong, Rotom-H, Suicune, Alomomola, Weezing and Porygon2. Other than Rotom-H (who has other big issues such as SR weakness and no reliable recovery) all of them are slow, passive walls that can be shut down by its team mates very easily (Suicune can run an offensive set but it loses the bulk it needs to check Mamo that way). You people need to realize that Mamoswine doesn't have to be a one-mon army that can beat everything by itself in order to be S-rank material. What makes Mamo so good is that it can threaten roughly 5/6 mons of a standard balanced team, can cripple stall badly and can actually OHKO or 2HKO everything commonly found on HO teams. STAB Ice Shard partially mitigates its speed issues since most offensive threats in the tier (Mega Bird, Mega Sceptile, Hydreigon, Mence, Mega Aero etc.) are weak to it so Mamoswine is a great blanket check for that purpose. Its bulk is decent, it has no SR weakness and it has useful resistances so switching in isn't that hard despite its ice typing. Much like Lando-I in OU, once Mamo is in the momentum is completely shifted in its user's favor.
Unless you run a dedicated stall team, it's hard to think about a team that wouldn't be improved by Mamoswine in the current metagame. Oh, did I meantion that it's not a mega so it has virtually zero opportunity cost? That's also a rather big factor compared to the other offensive threats.
tl;dr as the best all-purpose offensive threat in the metagame right now, Mamoswine deserves S rank.
 
queenofhax, you tried to pair it up with a dragon type like Salamence or Hydreigon? after Mamoswine has done his job hammering anything with the "not enough to KO" moves, the stall has usually no chance to take on your sweeper. M-Aerodactyl in particular also loves having the stall mons weakened by those two titans called Mamoswine and Hydreigon to clean up the scraps later.
 
QueenOfHax said:
Ok so let's see what actually checks Mamoswine: Cresselia, Bronzong, Rotom-H, Suicune, Alomomola, Weezing and Porygon2. Other than Rotom-H (who has other big issues such as SR weakness and no reliable recovery) all of them are slow, passive walls that can be shut down by its team mates very easily (Suicune can run an offensive set but it loses the bulk it needs to check Mamo that way).
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This is why the opponent will have walls of those mons as well, mons especially Heliolisk Toxicroak Rotom-C works well, so you have to prepare yourself for those cores as well, or else you'd be rekt.

QueenOfHax said:
You people need to realize that Mamoswine doesn't have to be a one-mon army that can beat everything by itself in order to be S-rank material. What makes Mamo so good is that it can threaten roughly 5/6 mons of a standard balanced team, can cripple stall badly and can actually OHKO or 2HKO everything commonly found on HO teams. STAB Ice Shard partially mitigates its speed issues since most offensive threats in the tier (Mega Bird, Mega Sceptile, Hydreigon, Mence, Mega Aero etc.) are weak to it so Mamoswine is a great blanket check for that purpose. Its bulk is decent, it has no SR weakness and it has useful resistances so switching in isn't that hard despite its ice typing. Much like Lando-I in OU, once Mamo is in the momentum is completely shifted in its user's favor.
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I disagree with you here, yes, it can be really threatening, but it can be played around. Suicune is fairly common on balance teams, also despite having a few counters, Mamoswine has a lot of checks which can easily revenge kill it; Heracross, Krookodile, Mienshao, Beedrill. Also it causes 50/50s with Mence Pidgeot and Aerodactyl and being on the wrong end will kill Mamoswine. Furthermore, stall HAS answers for it in Cresselia and Suicune. Balance HAS answers for it in Suicune and checks. Hyper Offense also HAS answers for it since I play HO as well and I've never found them broken. If you're using a HO team full of Dragons and Birdspam, you're doing it wrong because a monster in A+ rankings can eat it up, but it's not that good to be S.
 
Krookodile, beedrill and mienshao won't check it that well if rocks are up and a little prior damage puts them on the KO range of ice shard. what, about 15-20% is required? very hard to get if your mons have decent offensive stats...
 
SJMistery said:
Krookodile, beedrill and mienshao won't check it that well if rocks are up and a little prior damage puts them on the KO range of ice shard. what, about 15-20% is required? very hard to get if your mons have decent offensive stats...
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252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 130-153 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
what
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 173-204 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock in your favor
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Krookodile: 205-244 (61.9 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock revenge killed

Beedrill has a good partner in Forretress, so that helps as well, the other ones check it completely, Mienshao being a more reliable one.
 
I've got to agree with moltres being a pretty good counter thing wherever it's said. Thing has some beastly power behind it, and unless the swine carries stone edge, it's fucked.
 
Also, mamo for S rank? It's a great mon in UU and can destroy teams given proper support, but there are a few things that keep it from S rank. Infernape deserves special praise for taking ice shard like a champ and killing with close combat. Cune can take a hit and threaten it with scald burn, shaymin is faster and only fears ice shard (even then, it's bulky enough to survive and seed flare right back) swamp totally walls unless it carries freeze dry (haven't seen too much freeze dry, to be totally honest). And Mandi can actually switch on an EQ, can take a hit from any ice move and survive, and can finally threaten with foul play. Also, when mamo is really weak, I like to pick it off with sucker punch dug. Mamo might have only a few counters, but with this many checks it definitely shouldn't be in S. I only stated the ones (besides maybe cune) that other people have not. Mamo is indeed good, it is in A+ after all, but it isn't quite S rank material in my opinion.
 
Ducem said:
For the calcs on how much ice shard does to krook, you forgot to factor intimidate. So ice shard would only do around 50%
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Standard Krook and Mega Beedrill need Mamoswine to be worn down to check it

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 226-266 (62.9 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 213-252 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even Aero doesn't come close to OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 222-262 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Let's stop acting like Mamoswine is super frail and is forced to use ice shard vs every offensive pokemon that outspeeds it.
 
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Don't know why you'd ever run Adamant Mega Aero or go for Stone Edge when you have TC Aqua Tail, but okay. I don't think the argument was ever that Mamoswine was frail because of his stats (he's not, at least not physically, 110 HP does a lot of padding), but because of his typing, which leaves with a LOT of very exploitable weaknesses in UU.
 
The LO also makes it a bit harder for Mamo to take some of those hits, but it can still take almost a guaranteed 1.5 Pokémon down unless you have the right defenses and swaps up against it (choiced variants, of course, are easier to manage swaps against, but can get more KOs). I'm still not sure its natural bulk is enough to warrant an S rank, but it can put a pretty big dent into any opponent's team. I'm kind of surprised not many have mentioned special Lucario in terms of going up against Mamo:

If Naive for Freeze Dry, but clearly even if Jolly Lucario still outspeeds and KOs (though you have to come in after a death or on a resisted hit):
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 525-619 (146.2 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's still just one Pokémon, but it's something. Someone mentioned it a few pages back iirc, but it seemed to go missed that Lucario may have some added usability with these most recent drops.
 
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