ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Cynde]

i disagree with raising tenta primarily for one reason. it forces you to compound roles. it isnt a self sufficient fighting type, fairy type or fire type answer. having to run multiple team slots to check these mons because one mon cant handle it by itself isnt ideal (the mons cactrune listed is an example). it's needs a decent chunk of support from it's teammates to serve as secondary / primary answers to fairies, fightings and fires. while it is the best non-mega spinner uu has to offer and has unique traits in access to both rapid spin and toxic spikes, it's because of those traits that it's b+ in the first place.

 

[dingbat]

A+ rank seems kinda reasonable at this point, but I'm going to push it further and say that Gyarados is worthy of S rank. Sub DD Gyarados (idc if jolly or adamant) in my opinion is its best set in this tier right now and, beyond my expectations, it straight up massacres a good amount of teams after literally one turn of set-up. Yeah, everyone and their mothers know that Gyarados is weak to rocks and it might not hit nearly as hard as Feraligatr right off the bat, but I find that Gyarados has a lot more opportunities to set up than Gatr does, due to its arguably better defensive typing (+Rock weakness, but +Ground, Fighting, Bug resistances). In addition, the list of shit that can reliably revenge kill Gyarados is even shorter than the shit that can revenge kill Feraligatr because, as puny as a 3 Base Speed difference sounds, Feraligatr not only falls short of the base 80 threshold (Chandy, Mamo, Gardy), but also the base 145 threshold (Mega Sceptile, Mega Beedrill) at +1, two major barriers that Gyarados can break with Jolly nature. And finally, anyone who has watched xMarth in his week 2 SPL battle can attest that this wild fish is one hell of a threat in this meta, and to paraphrase what he literally just said ~20 minutes ago, Gyarados is one of those 'mons where you cannot afford to make a single mistake against it.

And ye, I guess I'm back, so hi

 

[Vapo]

To add onto dingbat's post, Gyarados can also run numerous other sets extremely effectively. While Sub DD is easily its most splashable set, DD + 3 Attacks LO is also extremely threatening, especially towards offense. Common checks to the Sub DD set like physdef Zapdos, Mega Ampharos, and Empoleon can be eliminated after a boost and rocks with Stone Edge and Earthquake, respectively, lessening their reliability against Gyarados. The only pokemon I can think of that can reliably stop Gyarados after a boost (without random HP Electric lol) are physdef p2 with tbolt, RoarCune, and Roar Mega Aggron, with the latter two only phasing it out and not eliminating it. On top of the numerous offensive sets it can run, Gyarados can run a defensive set quick effectively due to its semi-unique typing, natural bulk, and ability in Intimidate. It's one of the few pokemon that has the potential to wall Mamoswine. A physically defensive set is not 3HKO'd from full or 2HKO'd after rocks by Adamant LO Icicle Crash, so Gyarados can switch into Mamoswine pretty safely and beat it 1v1. It almost functions like RoarCune, though it trades a Rock weakness for a Ground immunity and Intimidate. Overall, it's a fantastic pokemon that can perform multiple roles extremely well, so I think it is deserving of S Rank.

 

[LRXC]

Vapo and dingbat Really did sum up a lot of my thoughts on Gyarados. I really think it is S-tier quality, and I honestly think it is a little broken. It can run so many sets from Defensive, to Bulky Offensive, to all out offensive. Its typing is also very good, and forces mons to run coverage moves for it, because of its overall power in UU. It has great power, good natural bulk, 2 amazing abilities in Intimidate and Moxie, and has a very annoying paraflinch combo in Bounce+Waterfall. Its speed tier is also amazing, because at +1 it outspeeds 145+ and below, and it also outspeeds the very popular base 80 speed. So yeah, I really think it deserves S-rank, but I would love for it to be banned haha :)

 

[bsu]

on the topic of gyarados, little runner actually brings up a great point in that gyarados' main stabs, waterfall and bounce, both have amazing secondary effects in flinching and para-ing. This is particularly deadly on gyara as it's the only physical water other than sharpedo that can actually abuse the flinch, since gatr has sheer force, and craw daunt is too slow. Bounce is on par with a fast body slam that can miss, which sucks, but the occasional para can be game changing. just a thought on gyara's power

 

[Kink]

the original poster of Goodra's nom deleted their post, so all subsequent goodra posts have been deleted as well.

for future reference, Goodra is fine in C+; there's little to no reason to change Goodra's ranking, seeing as how almost nothing has changed for it for better or worse in, say, the last year.

 

[Cynde]

i just noticed that sceptile was b+ D:

with the increase of water types like crawdaunt and gyarados, electric types and grass types like mega ampharos and tangrowth, have gained prominence and sceptile can exploit this trend pretty well with it's ability in lightning rod and 4x grass resist.

along with the increase in usage of grass types and electric types, offence as an archetype has gained in usage and viability and sceptile is an absolute monster for offence to face. like take hogg's rmt for example: it's a good representation of what an offensive team would look like rn, yet... look at what sceptile does to it. sans gyara / infernape nothing can even take a hit let alone outspeed and beat it. the only "switch in" offensive teams can typically afford is a whimsicott which is taking over half from leaf storm or p2 which is taking close to half from focus blast. failing that they are forced to rely on priority from mons like mamoswine to handle it (assuming fsr it stays in?). oh yeah also currently scarfers have dropped in usage pretty heavily so that just makes this all the more better.


i'm sure i missed some stuff. not typically good with expressing shit but.. mega sceptile is a pretty good mon especially with current trends and should be A-imo

 

[FatCorgi]

on the topic of gyarados, little runner actually brings up a great point in that gyarados' main stabs, waterfall and bounce, both have amazing secondary effects in flinching and para-ing. This is particularly deadly on gyara as it's the only physical water other than sharpedo that can actually abuse the flinch, since gatr has sheer force, and craw daunt is too slow. Bounce is on par with a fast body slam that can miss, which sucks, but the occasional para can be game changing. just a thought on gyara's power

The problem with bounce is you sacrifice momentum. Yes, you can bounce for 1.5, Yes you can bounce for STAB, Yes you can bounce with Life Orb. But Spiky Shield or Rocky Helm or Protect kind of make you wish you'd Waterfall'd instead. Just my thoughts on people putting Bounce as Gyarados's select diamond. Sadly, it's the only move that benefits Gyarados's high atk and Flying STAB. It's just one of those things that's going to be debated among for a while, until it's either forced into a Ranking and rises/lowers accordingly, or until the community ultimately settles on a rank.

 

[Schpoonman]

Every time Bounce is brought up, I can't help but think how it lets Chesnaught utterly wall Gyarados the vast majority of the time. Without Taunt (which I haven't seen yet and based on chatter is inferior to Sub, with which I agree), you get a free Spiky Shield every time while every other move Gyarados has besides a multiple-boosted Ice Fang does jack-all. Bounce is fantastic in concept, but Gyarados would kill for a one-turn move, even something as weak as Aerial Ace.

 

[FatCorgi]

Every time Bounce is brought up, I can't help but think how it lets Chesnaught utterly wall Gyarados the vast majority of the time. Without Taunt (which I haven't seen yet and based on chatter is inferior to Sub, with which I agree), you get a free Spiky Shield every time while every other move Gyarados has besides a multiple-boosted Ice Fang does jack-all. Bounce is fantastic in concept, but Gyarados would kill for a one-turn move, even something as weak as Aerial Ace.

This is essentially what I've been saying since Gyara become UU's Hot Topic. Taunt Gyara is inferior in the sense that a good player, someone who studies the meta, can expect Gyara to either Turn 1 Taunt or Turn 1 DD/Sub. Taunt Gyara is good in it's own accord, essentially breaking stall and putting some pressure down on stall/semistall teams. I feel like this Gyara talk is getting old and repetitive though, not sure what else I have to say on it. There are other, more interesting, pokemon in the meta to be explored right now.

 

[Cactrune]

Alright, well, if we want to be talking about other 'mons, I've got a nomination for you.
Mega Ampharos from B to B+

There's been a lot of talk about the changing metagame in terms of what types of Pokemon are starting to get increased usage; the recent influx in strong Water-type sweepers has led to an uptick in the use of Grass and Electric-types in response. I have right here a 'mon that is capable of checking not only Water-type sweepers, but also the Grass and Electric 'mons used to check them. This makes Ampharos a great partner to Water-types and a great Pokemon to have on playstyles from offense to even semi-stall. Its resistances to Electric, Fire, Grass, and Water are all very valuable on any team, and its movepool isn't bad either.

A slow Volt Switch user like Ampharos can be pivotal (get it) in safely switching into a sweeper or wallbreaker without it having to suffer any damage, and Ampharos's Volt Switches can be very hard to stomach repeatedly with the right investment. It also has decent offensive coverage with Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast, and can even run Heal Bell to remove annoying status conditions in a pinch. However, I still usually favor a RestTalk set with dual stab and defensive investment, which allows Ampharos to check both Gyarados and Crawdaunt, among other things.

TLDR, I think that Mega Ampharos is a strong pick for many teams in the current metagame, serving as one of the few consistent answers to some of UU's most threatening sweepers. For that reason, it should (imo) be bumped up at least one rank because of this new relevance.

 

[Christo]

Part of what makes Gyarados so threatening and borderline broken is its ability to pick and choose what counters it, in conjunction with the ability to use a large portion of the tier as setup fodder. Pokemon like Chesnaught still need Wood Hammer and Spiky Shield to effectively counter a Gyarados, although Gyarados can always run Power Herb and completely demolish a Chesnaught while switching in on a Dragon Dance. This also applies to many other supposed counters such as Defensive Ampharos, which gets OHKO'd by LO Earthquake at +1 after a couple rock switch ins. Depending on the team one is running, Gyarados can either win games based off it's sheer power or be able to eliminate key "counters" to benefit the rest of the team. For example, if your team features a Choice Band Krookodile, a Gyarados can run Power Herb to lure those defensive protect mons that would also handle a Choice Banded Krook such as Chesnaught or Protect Tangrowth.

Another reason Gyarados is very effective is because of the lack of splash-able counters and checks. Not every UU team can run a Wood Hammer Spiky Shield Chesnaught, defensive Ampharos, P2, or Shuca HP Electric Empoleon so easily. A pokemon this centralizing seems like an obvious choice at S Rank.

 

[jbtc10]

Mandibuzz and Umbreon also counter Gyarados, to name a couple. The counters alone for Gyarados are plentiful, diverse, mostly reliable and are not particularly hard to fit on a team. The DD set, which is its most potent one, doesn't quite seem S rank to me at the moment, with A+ seeming more appropriate.

 

[LRXC]

Alright, well, if we want to be talking about other 'mons, I've got a nomination for you.
Mega Ampharos from B to B+

There's been a lot of talk about the changing metagame in terms of what types of Pokemon are starting to get increased usage; the recent influx in strong Water-type sweepers has led to an uptick in the use of Grass and Electric-types in response. I have right here a 'mon that is capable of checking not only Water-type sweepers, but also the Grass and Electric 'mons used to check them. This makes Ampharos a great partner to Water-types and a great Pokemon to have on playstyles from offense to even semi-stall. Its resistances to Electric, Fire, Grass, and Water are all very valuable on any team, and its movepool isn't bad either.

A slow Volt Switch user like Ampharos can be pivotal (get it) in safely switching into a sweeper or wallbreaker without it having to suffer any damage, and Ampharos's Volt Switches can be very hard to stomach repeatedly with the right investment. It also has decent offensive coverage with Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast, and can even run Heal Bell to remove annoying status conditions in a pinch. However, I still usually favor a RestTalk set with dual stab and defensive investment, which allows Ampharos to check both Gyarados and Crawdaunt, among other things.

TLDR, I think that Mega Ampharos is a strong pick for many teams in the current metagame, serving as one of the few consistent answers to some of UU's most threatening sweepers. For that reason, it should (imo) be bumped up at least one rank because of this new relevance.

As my favorite mega, I totally agree with this. I even liked this thing before things like Craw and Gyarados came. But Mega-Ampharos has really got even better, with drops like Zapdos, Crawdaunt, and Gyarados. Cacturne summed up the rest, but I totally support this.

 

[LeapsFrog]

I am surprised that nobody has compared Gyarados to Salamence yet. Dragon Dance Moxie Gyarados works in the same way as Salamence does. They both stretch out to around 9 SE moves through 3 damaging moves and both have Moxie and Intimidate. Salamence has the better BST but Gyarados has the better defensive type and has better defenses. Also most of the BST difference is in SpA which is not used by either Salamence or Gyarados Having good defenses makes it is easier for Gyarados to set up and sweep. Yes it is quad weak to electric but same can be said about Salamence's quad weakness to ice.
However It is slower by 19 by only having a speed stat of 81 which does make it harder for it set up on anything in the 85-100 range than Salamence which is a lot of pokemon. Plus it is at greater risk of being outsped by a Choice Scarf user after it has set-up 1 Dragon Dance.
I would put it at A+ rank. I think Salamence is superior to Gyarados but I do feel that Gyarados is still a great pokemon in this tier because it can have SE coverage for least half of all types and can Set-up in a way that makes it only stoppable by mostly Choice Scarf and priority.

 

[Threw]

So just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna say a piece on why Mega Ampharos maybe shouldn't be moved up.

Hate to state the obvious, but we all know: it's got an abysmal speed tier and no priority. It doesn't sweep, it doesn't wallbreak effectively against decently prepared teams, since it has to switch out so much; it's often just a really powerful pivot. If it weren't for Volt Switch, I have a feeling it would be C rank or lower.

The point is, Amphy's coverage move(s) (mainly Focus Miss) are useless unless you can easily read the other team's switches. It generally isn't hard to get a Ground-type to absorb a Volt Switch. Now Amphy has to switch out, which kills momentum, because a slow Focus Blast won't help against Krook, who OHKOes every time. Mamphy isn't even a reliable way to deal with Gyara, who has a chance to KO with EQ if it's at +1 or Mega Ampharos has switched into Rocks twice, or other Dragons, all of whom OHKO with their primary stab moves. It's hard to find a team without a Dragon check, and many of the mons that would only be checks for Mence and Hydra can usually hard counter Mamphy since they can take its attack, then outspeed it.

The Agility set isn't very good for a number of reasons, and its only other one besides the all out attacking one mentioned above is a defensive RestTalk set that has no place on offensive teams and isn't very splashable on stall and semi-stall, since few people are willing to waste a Mega slot on a mon that has to pivot out to use its strongest move and otherwise does little to help the rest of its team while other Megas like Aggron have better defenses and can spare the moveslots to spread status.

Overall, MAmphy isn't very difficult to check, and a slow Volt Switch is overrated when it can often only be used if the other team lacks a Ground-type. It kills momentum on offensive teams and requires a good amount of support to do its job properly (any team it's on better have a backup hazard remover for its backup hazard remover), and tops it off by having a completely useless ability in Mold Breaker (unless hitting Mega Scept for 1/4 damage counts as useful :0), while MAggron has a useful one in Filter and MAbsol has a match-defining one in Magic Bounce.

Again, just devil's advocate, since talking about Gyara is getting boring ;-;

 

[FatCorgi]

So just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna say a piece on why Mega Ampharos maybe shouldn't be moved up.

Hate to state the obvious, but we all know: it's got an abysmal speed tier and no priority. It doesn't sweep, it doesn't wallbreak effectively against decently prepared teams, since it has to switch out so much; it's often just a really powerful pivot. If it weren't for Volt Switch, I have a feeling it would be C rank or lower.

The point is, Amphy's coverage move(s) (mainly Focus Miss) are useless unless you can easily read the other team's switches. It generally isn't hard to get a Ground-type to absorb a Volt Switch. Now Amphy has to switch out, which kills momentum, because a slow Focus Blast won't help against Krook, who OHKOes every time. Mamphy isn't even a reliable way to deal with Gyara, who has a chance to KO with EQ if it's at +1 or Mega Ampharos has switched into Rocks twice, or other Dragons, all of whom OHKO with their primary stab moves. It's hard to find a team without a Dragon check, and many of the mons that would only be checks for Mence and Hydra can usually hard counter Mamphy since they can take its attack, then outspeed it.

The Agility set isn't very good for a number of reasons, and its only other one besides the all out attacking one mentioned above is a defensive RestTalk set that has no place on offensive teams and isn't very splashable on stall and semi-stall, since few people are willing to waste a Mega slot on a mon that has to pivot out to use its strongest move and otherwise does little to help the rest of its team while other Megas like Aggron have better defenses and can spare the moveslots to spread status.

Overall, MAmphy isn't very difficult to check, and a slow Volt Switch is overrated when it can often only be used if the other team lacks a Ground-type. It kills momentum on offensive teams and requires a good amount of support to do its job properly (any team it's on better have a backup hazard remover for its backup hazard remover), and tops it off by having a completely useless ability in Mold Breaker (unless hitting Mega Scept for 1/4 damage counts as useful :0), while MAggron has a useful one in Filter and MAbsol has a match-defining one in Magic Bounce.

Again, just devil's advocate, since talking about Gyara is getting boring ;-;

I haven't got MUCH to say on Amph, I do agree on it being deserving of a slightly higher rank, given the current meta. However, I can agree with you. MApmph is not hard to check, I've never had problems handling it with most of my teams. You listed reasons why the Agility set isn't good, you could elaborate a little bit more by saying that the main purpose it runs Agility is because it's to slow to handle it's checks or to effectively play into it's Agility role. To me, It's agility set seems a little redundant right now. I can honest to god see Charge Beam become a viable move to run on M-Amphy, just for the sake of keeping damage up. However, I'm not an expert on Mega-Amph, Like you, I'm just an advocate of the UU tier.

EDIT:
I just threw up ( almost literally ) this Amph set. It's not good, but it counters the " there's no aggressive " Amph set argument.

Hide

Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Charge Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Cotton Guard

Utility to Volt Turn, A damaging self buff, A strong secondary STAB move. And a Def Buff to deal with EQ, Dragon Claw, ect. Just something to kind of "shove in the faces" of people who saw Amph is "super weak" and " Isn't useful anymore ".

 

[Cactrune]

It definitely does have an abysmal speed tier and no priority, I wasn't trying to sell it as that type of 'mon. Anyway, there's a lot of stuff here to talk about, let's get into it. Big text post alert.

Gyarados specifically

It might just be me, but I don't really see Earthquake on very many (if any) Gyarados sets. It could become more popular in the future, but as far as I know, Earthquake makes you more vulnerable to Grass-types if you're not running a 3 attacks set, which I don't consider Gyarados's best set. SubDD is Gyarados's flagship set at the moment, and Mega Ampharos beats it without really breaking a sweat. It also checks the Rotom formes, Entei, and a decently large pool of other 'mons that I'll discuss later.

Typing

You also didn't really consider Ampharos's other resistances, which makes it a pretty good check to Fire, Grass, Electric, and Water-types besides Gyarados. That's a pretty good bet for teams that are looking for a number of resistances to common special attackers. I know that it's SpDef isn't the best uninvested, but it can still take hits constantly with its RestTalk set. It fits pretty nicely in cores with stuff like Crobat, Swampert, Florges, Empoleon, and Suicune. It brings a number of helpful resists to the table. Yes, it loses to Dragon checks. Go figure, that's what Dragon checks are for. You can definitely use Hydreigon and Salamence checks to beat Ampharos, which makes sense. You can use checks to offensive Fire-types to beat defensive Fire-types, and so on. The fact that it can be beaten by certain 'mons doesn't detract at all from its ability to wall quite a few of the tier's most threatening sweepers.

Ground-types

As for being checked by Ground-types, I don't disagree with that either. However, you cannot deny that Ground-types are a declining force in this metagame. An enormous number of teams these days either have a number of Grass and Electric-types on it, has Steel-types running Shuca Berry, or possibly both. Krookodile and the Nidos are still powerful and have quite a bit of utility in this tier, and they deserve high praise, but you can't deny that they're currently not as good as they used to be now that Mamoswine, Zapdos, Gyarados, and Crawdaunt are running around trying to check them. Mega Ampharos works like a charm in with these groundbreaking (ha) new threats, and Ground-types aren't adapting like they used to.

Final Thoughts

When it comes to picking other Megas, I can kind of agree with you there. A defensive Mega is unappealing for quite a few people. I understand that, but Ampharos is still a good choice on the right team, and it can work pretty well on balance and semi-stall at the very least. I also agree that Agility is a bad set. It's not really that worth attempting, and there are also better offensive Electric-types around. Maybe I'm inflating the rankings and maybe I've wasted my time in typing all of this, but Mega Ampharos deserves B+ in my opinion. It is an important presence in this metagame right now.

 

[FatCorgi]

It definitely does have an abysmal speed tier and no priority, I wasn't trying to sell it as that type of 'mon. Anyway, there's a lot of stuff here to talk about, let's get into it. Big text post alert.




When it comes to picking other Megas, I can kind of agree with you there. A defensive Mega is unappealing for quite a few people. I understand that, but Ampharos is still a good choice on the right team, and it can work pretty well on balance and semi-stall at the very least. I also agree that Agility is a bad set. It's not really that worth attempting, and there are also better offensive Electric-types around. Maybe I'm inflating the rankings and maybe I've wasted my time in typing all of this, but Mega Ampharos deserves B+ in my opinion. It is an important presence in this metagame right now.

Aaaaaand we have a winner. Your post was beautiful, summed up everything that needed to be summed up, and hopefully people stop overlooking or overthinking Mega Amph in the meta. Yeah, it's not the best mega or best Elec or Dragon type in the tier, but it DOES have a place in this meta, a viable yet specific place that should be respected.

 

[Cynde]

Ampharos-Mega @ Ampharosite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Charge Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Cotton Guard

what the actual fuck is that set .-.

Ampharos is fine at B honestly. When you're talking about the Defensive set, you're going to need to stack multiple water checks, having volt switch to break through isn't enough. When you're talking about the offensive set you may not have to compound water checks but certainly your answers to offensive fire types and the likes. Even stuff it's supposed to check like Gyarados has perfectly viable ways of getting around it like running Earthquake. You can't only consider the best possible set it runs, you need to consider every possibility. Especially when that possibility is a perfectly good and viable set in EQ Gyarados. Once your opponent reveals EQ Ampharos becomes much less of an asset.

Cactrune seem to be advocating a rise of Ampharos based solely off of its defensive set. But here's where the problem lies, the defensive set relies on RestTalk to perform its role (duh) and unfortunately that can potentially give free turns to mons, such as an easy switch to a ground type for example. It also needs to stay at an incredibly high amount of hp if it's going to be your sole answer to water types which again is going to cause it to rest a ton and therefore again, potentially give a free switch in to another mon. and it's a kind of passivity, especially on balance / bulky offence teams that they really cant afford especially when balance breakers like Mamoswine are running around.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 244-289 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Need to stay at a stupidly high amount of hp

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 194-229 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you need to be awake to know that you can beat this for sure. and if the opposition has a volt switch immunity thats gonna make playing around this all the more rough. if it has ice punch you're kinda screwed.

Pretty sure I dont need to calc eq gyara and mega pert. Point being though that these are the most defining offensive water types and Ampharos isnt self sufficient enough to handle all of these. It most certainly cant handle bulky waters with an uninvested volt switch either. You will need to compound roles in order to handle these mons, it needs support from teammates to do what it's primary role should be.

"An enormous number of teams these days either have a number of Grass and Electric-types on it"
idk if you know this but electric types typically arent the best answers to ground types. and as for steel types running shuca berry a lot... doesnt this just show how good a ground type or ground coverage actually is...? Mamo, Krook, Nido all caused a surge in the usage of Shuca Berry.

Honestly Mamphy might deserve a raise but I'm leaning towards keeping it B.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

So just to play devil's advocate here, I'm gonna say a piece on why Mega Ampharos maybe shouldn't be moved up.

Hate to state the obvious, but we all know: it's got an abysmal speed tier and no priority. It doesn't sweep, it doesn't wallbreak effectively against decently prepared teams, since it has to switch out so much; it's often just a really powerful pivot. If it weren't for Volt Switch, I have a feeling it would be C rank or lower.

The point is, Amphy's coverage move(s) (mainly Focus Miss) are useless unless you can easily read the other team's switches. It generally isn't hard to get a Ground-type to absorb a Volt Switch. Now Amphy has to switch out, which kills momentum, because a slow Focus Blast won't help against Krook, who OHKOes every time. Mamphy isn't even a reliable way to deal with Gyara, who has a chance to KO with EQ if it's at +1 or Mega Ampharos has switched into Rocks twice, or other Dragons, all of whom OHKO with their primary stab moves. It's hard to find a team without a Dragon check, and many of the mons that would only be checks for Mence and Hydra can usually hard counter Mamphy since they can take its attack, then outspeed it.

The Agility set isn't very good for a number of reasons, and its only other one besides the all out attacking one mentioned above is a defensive RestTalk set that has no place on offensive teams and isn't very splashable on stall and semi-stall, since few people are willing to waste a Mega slot on a mon that has to pivot out to use its strongest move and otherwise does little to help the rest of its team while other Megas like Aggron have better defenses and can spare the moveslots to spread status.

Overall, MAmphy isn't very difficult to check, and a slow Volt Switch is overrated when it can often only be used if the other team lacks a Ground-type. It kills momentum on offensive teams and requires a good amount of support to do its job properly (any team it's on better have a backup hazard remover for its backup hazard remover), and tops it off by having a completely useless ability in Mold Breaker (unless hitting Mega Scept for 1/4 damage counts as useful :0), while MAggron has a useful one in Filter and MAbsol has a match-defining one in Magic Bounce.

Again, just devil's advocate, since talking about Gyara is getting boring ;-;

Counter argument time.

Mega-Amphy is a good Mega currently because of how it can check a good amount of mons that are currently popular right now, like Crawdaunt, Gyrados, Zapdos, etc. The Defensive set is probably it's best set because of how bulky it is. As an additional bonus, it also resists Fire, Flying, and Steel types. It has a hefty amount of resistances, which is a good thing for the defensive set.

Ground-types stop Amphy from pivoting around, but that's why you prepare for something like that, like bringing a Grass or Water type. If you didn't, then that's your own fault.

The Agility set isn't it's best one atm, though it's far from being a terrible set either. If you can get off an Agility, you outrun a lot of mons in the tier barring a few, and even without a beneficial hold item, 165 SpAtk is still very powerful. It's bulk isn't that bad even without any investment in it's defense stats. Since a lot mons it resists are plentiful right now, it doesn't have as much of a problem setting up.

As for it having bad speed and no priority.... well, no shit. The same thing could be said about a bunch of other Pokemon that have those similar traits.

I know Mega-Amphy isn't the best Mega available, but it is far from bad, especially in the meta currently.

 

[FatCorgi]

what the actual fuck is that set .-.

Ampharos is fine at B honestly. When you're talking about the Defensive set, you're going to need to stack multiple water checks, having volt switch to break through isn't enough. When you're talking about the offensive set you may not have to compound water checks but certainly your answers to offensive fire types and the likes. Even stuff it's supposed to check like Gyarados has perfectly viable ways of getting around it like running Earthquake. You can't only consider the best possible set it runs, you need to consider every possibility. Especially when that possibility is a perfectly good and viable set in EQ Gyarados. Once your opponent reveals EQ Ampharos becomes much less of an asset.

Cactrune seem to be advocating a rise of Ampharos based solely off of its defensive set. But here's where the problem lies, the defensive set relies on RestTalk to perform its role (duh) and unfortunately that can potentially give free turns to mons, such as an easy switch to a ground type for example. It also needs to stay at an incredibly high amount of hp if it's going to be your sole answer to water types which again is going to cause it to rest a ton and therefore again, potentially give a free switch in to another mon. and it's a kind of passivity, especially on balance / bulky offence teams that they really cant afford especially when balance breakers like Mamoswine are running around.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 244-289 (63.5 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Need to stay at a stupidly high amount of hp

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 194-229 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you need to be awake to know that you can beat this for sure. and if the opposition has a volt switch immunity thats gonna make playing around this all the more rough

Pretty sure I dont need to calc eq gyara and mega pert. Point being though that these are the most defining offensive water types and Ampharos isnt self sufficient enough to handle all of these. It most certainly cant handle bulky waters with an uninvested volt switch either. You will need to compound roles in order to handle these mons, it needs support from teammates to do what it's primary role should be.

"An enormous number of teams these days either have a number of Grass and Electric-types on it"
idk if you know this but electric types typically arent the best answers to ground types. and as for steel types running shuca berry a lot... doesnt this just show how good a ground type or ground coverage actually is...? Mamo, Krook, Nido all caused a surge in the usage of Shuca Berry.

Honestly Mamphy might deserve a raise but I'm leaning towards keeping it B.

Like I said, that set is an answer to people who talk about Amph only having Agility. I'm not promoting it as a competitive/viable/serious set, I'm just saying there ARE options that work for people who don't want to run Agility on Amph.

 

[Threw]

I never said slow pivots kill momentum; my point was that, unlike a lot of other Volt Switch users, if a Ground-type switches in on Mamphy's Volt Switch, you just lost momentum because you're forced to switch out, and unless you want to do some Houdini shit and predict switches every time until you've eliminated that Ground-type, you have to live in constant fear of that switch-in. Also, while it ostensibly checks a lot of the meta, there are a shocking number of mons as I scroll down this very VR that carry coverage moves into which it cannot switch because of its typing, meaning it'll almost always need a free switch.

I think Cynde addressed most of the other stuff quite well, although I'd also like to re-emphasize how much hazards hurt Mamphy's constant switching out, which would force you to compress roles even more, as you'd probably want at least two or maybe even three ways to deal with them.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

I realized that when I looked back, so I edited it out. I apologize, I was quick to bite on that part.

That's why you prioritize on getting rid of the Ground type before bringing in Amphy. If you bring in Amphy and begin spamming Volt Switch without much thinking, then you're using it wrong.

 

[Cactrune]

Cyndequil. and Threw, you guys have done a really good job refuting my arguments, lmao. I have to agree with you on a number of them, especially that Ampharos isn't always the best stop to a lot of these Water-types to begin with. Now I'm not really sure whether or not Amph should move up, but I'm glad I sparked this discussion. It's what the Viability Thread is all about, I guess. I'm looking forward to more discussion.