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Order of Operations
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Ok then, besides the question of "how are we going to monitor the Suspect Ladder" I think we're about ready to go, DJD has made it so adding ladders from now on is easy and there's no reason to delay this when only one person has opposed it.
In my mind we could either start the Suspect Ladder out with the current ladder minus garchomp, or we could accept that it's "uber" as far as its Stage 1 is concerned, with the full knowledge that it would be back in Stage 3, and therefore move straight to the next Suspect, on the Order of Operations, Lati@s, deciding to test Latias herself without Soul Dew in the current metagame minus Garchomp.
The one issue I do foresee does center around the fact that Latios and Latias do kind of break species clause by themselves in a way, and that a Latios/Latios/Celebi/Heatan/Garchomp/Forretress "team" could prove too strong because of the very similar stats and movepools of Lati@s (and identical typing/ability of course), but I think that before we get too worried about this we should see whether Latios himself doesn't prove too strong for his own Stage 1 test in the "curent metagame minus Garchomp". So again, I think we just need to come together on how we are going to monitor and observe the effect of these Suspects in their Stage 1 tests, and whether it's a big deal if we just give Garchomp an "uber" label as far as the Suspect Ladder is concerned even if we cannot yet decide if it's too powerful for the standard metagame. Doing this is somewhat of a "hey maybe it will work out when Latias and Manaphy prove they're not uber", but I don't think we're getting anywhere by just waiting for the real definition of uber with regard to the ever-on-the-line Garchomp is concerned to suddenly smack us over the head.
In my mind we could either start the Suspect Ladder out with the current ladder minus garchomp, or we could accept that it's "uber" as far as its Stage 1 is concerned, with the full knowledge that it would be back in Stage 3, and therefore move straight to the next Suspect, on the Order of Operations, Lati@s, deciding to test Latias herself without Soul Dew in the current metagame minus Garchomp.
The one issue I do foresee does center around the fact that Latios and Latias do kind of break species clause by themselves in a way, and that a Latios/Latios/Celebi/Heatan/Garchomp/Forretress "team" could prove too strong because of the very similar stats and movepools of Lati@s (and identical typing/ability of course), but I think that before we get too worried about this we should see whether Latios himself doesn't prove too strong for his own Stage 1 test in the "curent metagame minus Garchomp". So again, I think we just need to come together on how we are going to monitor and observe the effect of these Suspects in their Stage 1 tests, and whether it's a big deal if we just give Garchomp an "uber" label as far as the Suspect Ladder is concerned even if we cannot yet decide if it's too powerful for the standard metagame. Doing this is somewhat of a "hey maybe it will work out when Latias and Manaphy prove they're not uber", but I don't think we're getting anywhere by just waiting for the real definition of uber with regard to the ever-on-the-line Garchomp is concerned to suddenly smack us over the head.
Oh and for posterity:
Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in July 2008's standard metagame (since Garchomp's definitely a suspect, this is all the wording that's needed)
Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect impact on a suspect-free July 2008 metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.
Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in July 2008's standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in the Suspect-free July-2008 metagame.
i think that's accurate, correct me if not
Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in July 2008's standard metagame (since Garchomp's definitely a suspect, this is all the wording that's needed)
Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect impact on a suspect-free July 2008 metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.
Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in July 2008's standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in the Suspect-free July-2008 metagame.
i think that's accurate, correct me if not
Following the completion of Stages 1 and 2, we will all be very clear as to which suspects in the standard metagame are actually Uber and which are OU. Testing the suspects-proven-uber in the then-true metagame that includes all of the suspects-proven-OU will tell us whether any suspect-proven-uber is too powerful for the real, true metagame that will then include every pokemon that by itself is not too powerful for standard ("uber", for lack of a better word [there is none]).
An anticipated counterargument to the validity of Stage 3:
Q: If we're just going to be testing all the suspects together anyway, why not do it now and save time?
A: We wouldn't know which pokemon by themselves are uber until we test them in the true standard metagame. We are not sure that the true standard metagame doesn't include any of: Manaphy, Darkrai, Mew, Latios, Latias and Garchomp—or put more simply, we are not sure that we are currently playing the true standard metagame, where Garchomp is the only suspect that isn't uber. (Many would argue that Garchomp is uber.) The only way to determine whether a suspect is truly uber is to see how it fares by itself in a no-suspect metagame and then how it fares with fellow suspects.
While this opens the door for a Stage 2: OU pokemon possibly being more uber in Stage 3, in the sense that if, for whatever reason, both Mew and Manaphy are determined OU but it becomes clear that NP passing to Surf/Rain Dance/Rest/Ice Beam Manaphy makes Manaphy uber, then we will have to re-evaluate and possibly reban Manaphy. The opposite effect, though, is what we would be looking for primarily: for example, if Manaphy is deemed OU in stage 2 and Latios is deemed Uber but it is evident in Stage 3 that Manaphy indeed is a solid counter to Latios, then Latios may not be uber after all. We would never know this without testing them simultaneously, but more importantly, the undeniable fact will remain that any Suspect that does not by itself prove to be uber in a suspect-free metagame is almost undeniably OU and not uber.
An anticipated counterargument to the validity of Stage 3:
Q: If we're just going to be testing all the suspects together anyway, why not do it now and save time?
A: We wouldn't know which pokemon by themselves are uber until we test them in the true standard metagame. We are not sure that the true standard metagame doesn't include any of: Manaphy, Darkrai, Mew, Latios, Latias and Garchomp—or put more simply, we are not sure that we are currently playing the true standard metagame, where Garchomp is the only suspect that isn't uber. (Many would argue that Garchomp is uber.) The only way to determine whether a suspect is truly uber is to see how it fares by itself in a no-suspect metagame and then how it fares with fellow suspects.
While this opens the door for a Stage 2: OU pokemon possibly being more uber in Stage 3, in the sense that if, for whatever reason, both Mew and Manaphy are determined OU but it becomes clear that NP passing to Surf/Rain Dance/Rest/Ice Beam Manaphy makes Manaphy uber, then we will have to re-evaluate and possibly reban Manaphy. The opposite effect, though, is what we would be looking for primarily: for example, if Manaphy is deemed OU in stage 2 and Latios is deemed Uber but it is evident in Stage 3 that Manaphy indeed is a solid counter to Latios, then Latios may not be uber after all. We would never know this without testing them simultaneously, but more importantly, the undeniable fact will remain that any Suspect that does not by itself prove to be uber in a suspect-free metagame is almost undeniably OU and not uber.
that is one of the main reasons we are even considering a "garchomp-less" ladder and not jumping straight to a test of, say, latias
regardless we still can't accurately tell what is a suspect and what is not without having a good number of irrefutable characteristics of an uber, which is why i made that thread and have been encouraging people to post in it for over a week. lucario may be and dx-s may be but we don't know unless we are in consensus of what actually makes something uber. ideally a suspect would have two or more uber characteristics, depending on how many good ones we are able to come up with
regardless we still can't accurately tell what is a suspect and what is not without having a good number of irrefutable characteristics of an uber, which is why i made that thread and have been encouraging people to post in it for over a week. lucario may be and dx-s may be but we don't know unless we are in consensus of what actually makes something uber. ideally a suspect would have two or more uber characteristics, depending on how many good ones we are able to come up with
We have already decided as a group (and, thus, with extreme fairness) the order in which these issues are to be tackled. Aside from the assumption that any of the three you mentioned would be at all easier to solve than that of arriving at a better definition of uber, we would be upstaging the process we all decided on just because we seem to be at a roadblock issue that is a "roadblock" for very good reason—this is a big deal that deserves our very close attention. It would look like we are sidestepping the issue in the interests of getting to another one just because the latter seems easier to clear from afar, and that's no way to do things.
Asking for clarification here. Is Deoxys-S considered a "suspect" right now?
I know we established previously that Deoxys-S would remain OU, but that was not in our "suspect-free" metagame, and therefore more pedantic individuals (not me this time lol) could argue that that can of worms has to be opened again.
I'm all for declaring Deoxys-S a suspect, even though I voted it OU last time.
I know we established previously that Deoxys-S would remain OU, but that was not in our "suspect-free" metagame, and therefore more pedantic individuals (not me this time lol) could argue that that can of worms has to be opened again.
I'm all for declaring Deoxys-S a suspect, even though I voted it OU last time.
Though it would not change the makeup of the initial "Garchomp-less" ladder, we could and probably should do that. This would make DX-S the first suspect tested, then Latias since it is the next actual pokemon in the Order of Operations to be tested, then Latios...we get the picture.
What we must realize this means is that a "suspect-free metagame" is actually the current (August 6, 2008) metagame minus both Garchomp and Deoxys-S. This is what we would be what we would be testing Manaphy in, and Mew in, and Darkrai in (lol Darkrai, this thing may prove itself uber in a day). If we're okay with that then that's cool. I think it's probably best to see if DX-S actually proves itself to be a suspect first on a Garchomp-less ladder, but this is only if we are not able to agree on the definition of "Suspect" I've been throwing around for months now. The definition is loose but simple:
Any pokemon currently in OU or Uber that may be better suited for the respective other tier.
This may be true of Deoxys-S, even though it's hard to say what impact the obviously suspect Garchomp has on DX-S's own suspectness. I think it would probably be best to just play the Garchomp-less ladder with attention to anything else that may prove itself Suspect, as has been the plan all along, and see if DX-S is really a suspect. If we can agree that it is, we can safely say that a "suspect-less" metagame does not have Garchomp or DX-S in it.
What we must realize this means is that a "suspect-free metagame" is actually the current (August 6, 2008) metagame minus both Garchomp and Deoxys-S. This is what we would be what we would be testing Manaphy in, and Mew in, and Darkrai in (lol Darkrai, this thing may prove itself uber in a day). If we're okay with that then that's cool. I think it's probably best to see if DX-S actually proves itself to be a suspect first on a Garchomp-less ladder, but this is only if we are not able to agree on the definition of "Suspect" I've been throwing around for months now. The definition is loose but simple:
Any pokemon currently in OU or Uber that may be better suited for the respective other tier.
This may be true of Deoxys-S, even though it's hard to say what impact the obviously suspect Garchomp has on DX-S's own suspectness. I think it would probably be best to just play the Garchomp-less ladder with attention to anything else that may prove itself Suspect, as has been the plan all along, and see if DX-S is really a suspect. If we can agree that it is, we can safely say that a "suspect-less" metagame does not have Garchomp or DX-S in it.
I want to start by saying how awesome it is that we have officially started the practical element of this process, and that regardless of philosophical differences, we as a community should work diligently to ensure this project's success.
That said, I have to address your recent post, Jumpman16, mostly because I misinterpreted it the first time I read it, so I'll apologize in advance for that.
However, with our declaration to discover a "suspect-free" metagame, I believe it is necessary that all suspects that were previously decided on, namely Manaphy (early DP), Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S, be relegated back to suspect status.
Now this isn't an issue for Manaphy or Wobbuffet, as they were banned already.
This is an issue with Deoxys-S, however. Deoxys-S, in spite of its recent status is OU, is certainly a suspect. Even ardent supporters of its OU status (me, for example) have to at least admit that it is suspect.
Since one of the most important first steps of this overall project is to firmly iron out this suspect-free metagame, I believe that is absolutely imperative that we ban all potential suspects. If Manaphy and Wobbuffet had not been banned, for example, I would demand that they be rebanned for this initial test.
This is why I am happy the ladder is not named "No Garchomp," as I realize now that its main purpose isn't necessarily to ban Garchomp, but to discover our suspect-free metagame.
That said, I believe this Suspect Ladder should have Deoxys-S banned initially and we shouldn't waste time in the beginning by letting it play out.
That said, I have to address your recent post, Jumpman16, mostly because I misinterpreted it the first time I read it, so I'll apologize in advance for that.
However, with our declaration to discover a "suspect-free" metagame, I believe it is necessary that all suspects that were previously decided on, namely Manaphy (early DP), Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S, be relegated back to suspect status.
Now this isn't an issue for Manaphy or Wobbuffet, as they were banned already.
This is an issue with Deoxys-S, however. Deoxys-S, in spite of its recent status is OU, is certainly a suspect. Even ardent supporters of its OU status (me, for example) have to at least admit that it is suspect.
Since one of the most important first steps of this overall project is to firmly iron out this suspect-free metagame, I believe that is absolutely imperative that we ban all potential suspects. If Manaphy and Wobbuffet had not been banned, for example, I would demand that they be rebanned for this initial test.
This is why I am happy the ladder is not named "No Garchomp," as I realize now that its main purpose isn't necessarily to ban Garchomp, but to discover our suspect-free metagame.
That said, I believe this Suspect Ladder should have Deoxys-S banned initially and we shouldn't waste time in the beginning by letting it play out.
I was previously a huge supporter of Deoxys-E in OU, but now even I must suggest that Deoxys-E be re-examined. Our previous vote was taken before the Reflect/Light Screen/Taunt set, and that one has proven to be at least as powerful as the sweeper sets, if not more so. The fact that the exact opposite pokemon counter the two most popular sets is another reason I believe that it is should be moved back to testing. As jrrrrrrr said, it wasn't being used to its full potential, and therefore I think it is vital to the balance of our tiers that we test Deoxys-E once again.
Supporting Deoxys-E for the Suspect Ladder.
Supporting Deoxys-E for the Suspect Ladder.
I agree, and we'll see what Doug can do when he gets back on. It's the right thing to do..but I can't help but be somewhat amused/annoyed that you all are posting about this now, AFTER the ladder is up, after I have begged you all to post for like three weeks now =(
I too agree with the notion of taking Deoxys-S off the suspect ladder. I was initially pretty neutral on which way Deoxys-S went in terms of wheter it turned out to be Uber or not but this last month has really shown what Deoxys-S is capable of and I do believe it should once again be on the suspect list.
I want to ask however, exactly how long each suspect test is going to be? If we're saying approximately a month for each suspect then we're looking at 4-5 months (depending on if Latias and Latios are being tested together) just for Stage 1. Is it possible to simply cut this down somewhat and test 2 suspects at a time on seperate ladders? For example Lati@s on one ladder and Manaphy on another.
I want to ask however, exactly how long each suspect test is going to be? If we're saying approximately a month for each suspect then we're looking at 4-5 months (depending on if Latias and Latios are being tested together) just for Stage 1. Is it possible to simply cut this down somewhat and test 2 suspects at a time on seperate ladders? For example Lati@s on one ladder and Manaphy on another.
During a big discussion about NFEs, I brought up the idea of Wynaut. Now, its currently labelled as being uber, since its very similar to Wobbuffet, but with worse defences. Now my question is - does Wynaut deserve to be placed in ubers, or should it be considered a Suspect for the OU (or probably more likely BL) tier? I'm of the opinion it at least requires further investigation and testing, so I'm proposing Wynaut to be a suspect.
Also, I want to add that we should be treating NFEs as seperate Pokemon, because that is what they are, and despite any similarities should not be related to their evolved forms in the testing ladder. Wobbuffet was tested and it was decided to put it back in ubers, but should the same be said of Wynaut just because its evolved form went through the process?
Also, I want to add that we should be treating NFEs as seperate Pokemon, because that is what they are, and despite any similarities should not be related to their evolved forms in the testing ladder. Wobbuffet was tested and it was decided to put it back in ubers, but should the same be said of Wynaut just because its evolved form went through the process?
Grr I brought up Wynaut in the Policy Review thread "NFEs in UU" and I was told that we shouldn't even go there....
However, I do agree that it is a suspect. But, it should not be treated the same way as the other suspects, since it's very unlikely that it would reach OU at all. Instead, when we reach the "UU Tier" point on our Order of Operations, we should include it in there when and if we decide to merge UU/BL/NFE on a separate ladder to move stuff to BL accordingly. This will allow us to see if it's really overpowering in such a powerful UU tier that has a bunch of BLs in it.
However, if we don't choose to test Wynaut, there's one thing that I still wonder. If Garchomp was moved to the uber tier, what would that mean for Gible/Gabite? Would they simply be moved to the uber tier as well, or would they be included in the BL/UU/NFE tier?
However, I do agree that it is a suspect. But, it should not be treated the same way as the other suspects, since it's very unlikely that it would reach OU at all. Instead, when we reach the "UU Tier" point on our Order of Operations, we should include it in there when and if we decide to merge UU/BL/NFE on a separate ladder to move stuff to BL accordingly. This will allow us to see if it's really overpowering in such a powerful UU tier that has a bunch of BLs in it.
However, if we don't choose to test Wynaut, there's one thing that I still wonder. If Garchomp was moved to the uber tier, what would that mean for Gible/Gabite? Would they simply be moved to the uber tier as well, or would they be included in the BL/UU/NFE tier?
Ok, one more question. About the suspect test ladder, and the rating threshold of 1650. Is it really necessary for us to retain a 1650 rating on the OU ladder after the Garchomp/Deoxys-S testing is done and we move onto the other suspects?
I understand why we need a 1650 rating for it while testing Garchomp/Deoxys-S, because we need to see if eligible voters are experienced enough in a metagame with and without those two. However, this does not seem necessary with the other suspects.
For the other suspects, it just seems like we would need to have the 1650 rating on the suspect test ladder to be eligible for a vote. The OU ladder and suspect test ladder would be radically different from each other with the other suspects, since one of the ladders would have Garchomp/Deoxys-S, and the other would have those two banned, and in addition have something such as the Latis on the ladder (that is, if they're going to be tested together). The two ladders would be pretty unrelated with the other suspects, so in my opinion, for future suspects, a rating of 1650 should only be needed on the Suspect Test ladder, and not the OU ladder as well.
This is just a suggestion, and I don't actually know if we've figured out what we're going to do in regards to eligible voting for the other suspects, but this seems like it could be a simple situation.
I understand why we need a 1650 rating for it while testing Garchomp/Deoxys-S, because we need to see if eligible voters are experienced enough in a metagame with and without those two. However, this does not seem necessary with the other suspects.
For the other suspects, it just seems like we would need to have the 1650 rating on the suspect test ladder to be eligible for a vote. The OU ladder and suspect test ladder would be radically different from each other with the other suspects, since one of the ladders would have Garchomp/Deoxys-S, and the other would have those two banned, and in addition have something such as the Latis on the ladder (that is, if they're going to be tested together). The two ladders would be pretty unrelated with the other suspects, so in my opinion, for future suspects, a rating of 1650 should only be needed on the Suspect Test ladder, and not the OU ladder as well.
This is just a suggestion, and I don't actually know if we've figured out what we're going to do in regards to eligible voting for the other suspects, but this seems like it could be a simple situation.
I've played on the standard ladder for months before the suspect test ladder came out, now it seems like just a hassle to have to keep playing on that ladder to maintain eligibility to vote. It's more of an annoyance than anything, as I (and probably anyone else with access to this forum) already know what the standard metagame is like.