Order of Operations

[Colonel M]

On the other hand, I've played both OU and Ubers and I must say Mew should stay out of OU period. It's not the movepool that scares me: it's what he can do to effectively cripple the metagame. I mean there are many sets that are possible. The ability to Dual Screen is still very useful, Taunt + Nasty Plot would be very effective. Even Substitute + Calm Mind wouldn't be so bad because unlike Jirachi there's no worries about coverage period thanks to Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball. And of course the one thing that would make me consider it out of there the most: Baton Pass.

Now if you've played Ubers, you will probably agree with me that Mew is one of the best Baton Passers out there. It's bulk, ability to pass +2 of anything, recovery, Taunt, and other things makes it a Pokemon that is difficult to stop. Even though people would argue that passing Bulk Up and Calm Minds might be a waste, I don't see why it wouldn't at all. In Ubers, +2 is necessary to get things going. On the other hand, Baton Pass gives it a way to escape from Pursuit altogether. Pokemon such as Scizor and Tyranitar give Mew a chance to simply switch to a Pokemon such as Zapdos or even their own Scizor if necessary.

Overall, I think Mew would simply be very "overcentralizing" and would promote a very unhealthy OU metagame.

I still stand on my opinion on not testing Stealth Rock period. I feel that, despite people thinking that it would create a better metagame, the end result would possibly be similair to the mess we have now. Also I haven't seen anything really convincing about it to be honest.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

dear god mti what is wrong with you

Seriously, "controversy over this move" is uncompetitive and doesn't have a single thing to do with whether or not the move is broken. You've said that Evasion doesn't need to be tested or OHKOs don't need to be tested, but what if the people were clamoring for a test for that? You're bringing up ridiculous and uncompetitive reasons tor testing a move that isn't broken. If the majority of people clamored that Unown is Uber, would you say, "Hey, let's test Unown!" You wouldn't, and nobody in their right mind would.

By testing something just because it is "controversial" we undermine the very philosophy of why something would be banned in a game. You ban it because it's broken, not because people "feel like it." That's the whole reason behind the implementation of Bold Voting- People have to justify why they thing it breaks the metagame, not just cough up some wimpy reason that pretty much equates to, "I don't like it and I think the game would be easier to deal with if this factor was absent."

 

[Hipmonlee]

I don't think Evasion really needs to be tested either, as it doesn't promote skill, but merely luck and that's been discussed heavily, so I've got really nothing else to add to it.

No it hasnt, nobody has come up with a single convincing argument that evasion should be banned.

Have a nice day.

 

[Syberia]

It's uncompetitive, and can be easily removed without effecting anything else.

 

[the_artic_one]

We don't ban things for being uncompetitive, we ban them for being broken.

 

[Syberia]

Last time I checked, we were a site for competitive pokemon battling.

 

[the_artic_one]

Which is exactly why we shouldn't care if people want to use non-competitive losing strategies. Smash Bros players don't ban the use of Mr.G&W's side+b, they just don't use it.Otherwise we should start banning stuff like splash, acupressure, and grasswhistle.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

The thing is no one with a shred of competitive knowledge would call Unown Uber and there are some people with competitive knowledge calling for a test of SR. If you want to sum up my argument for a test on SR: I believe it is broken because it greatly affects pokémon usage, tiers, and it takes next to no skill to set it up with little or no consequence. Look at many of the leads out there, they are built around SR.

And before you people start calling it "not broken". Have you tested a metagame without it? No. So, how can you say it is not?

 

[Tleilax]

Which is exactly why we shouldn't care if people want to use non-competitive losing strategies. Smash Bros players don't ban the use of Mr.G&W's side+b, they just don't use it.Otherwise we should start banning stuff like splash, acupressure, and grasswhistle.

In the long run, yes, it is a losing strategy. However, in the context of a tournament, or similar conditions, the long term isn't relevant. Increasing evasion brings too much luck into the equation in a battle. Yes, it's taking turns to take a chance with luck. However, if it pays off even once it can tilt the game in one's favor, and there's nothing short of carrying Defog that one can do besides rely on luck.

 

[the_artic_one]

And before you people start calling it "not broken". Have you tested a metagame without it? No. So, how can you say it is not?

That's Argumentum ad ignorantiam. You're the one making the claim, therefore, the burden of proof lies with you.

I can't speak for everyone but I say it's not broken because I don't consider the current metagame to be unbalanced. Since a something is only broken if it unbalances the metagame, the metagame being balanced indicates that nothing currently in it is broken.

So, to start, tell us why you think the current metagame is unbalanced.

 

[QibingZero]

Which is exactly why we shouldn't care if people want to use non-competitive losing strategies. Smash Bros players don't ban the use of Mr.G&W's side+b, they just don't use it.Otherwise we should start banning stuff like splash, acupressure, and grasswhistle.

I think you're underestimating exactly how fragile a pokemon battle can be. While most of pokemon is balanced due to being based on information, there are quite a few things which are completely out of the user's hands:

- Damage range
- Additional effects of moves
- Critical hits
- Evasion abilities/items

What happens when a crit on one pokemon ruins it's chances of dealing with not only what it was sent in to counter, but what you may need it to later in the battle? What happens when that SpDef drop from Gengar's shadow ball turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO? Those are the situations we have to deal with in every battle as it is right now, and they can easily turn a victory into a loss. Should we really support reintroducing yet another factor in the game which is beyond our control? Is this not enough 'variety'?

Personally, I'm absolutely okay with there being a separate group of clauses that reasonable battlers have decided hurt the competitive nature of the game, regardless of whether or not they are by definition 'broken'. Of course, you could argue that something which is uncompetitive by nature is actually 'broken' in a competitive metagame. The point is, evasion moves aren't amazing, but they can completely screw over an unprepared team (and preparing for the evasion moves leaves arguably even bigger holes in your team). If using evasion moves was actually 'a losing strategy' by definition, you would be correct in saying we shouldn't care about them. That's not the case, however.

The thing is no one with a shred of competitive knowledge would call Unown Uber and there are some people with competitive knowledge calling for a test of SR. If you want to sum up my argument for a test on SR: I believe it is broken because it greatly affects pokémon usage, tiers, and it takes next to no skill to set it up with little or no consequence. Look at many of the leads out there, they are built around SR.

And before you people start calling it "not broken". Have you tested a metagame without it? No. So, how can you say it is not?

Testing is the most reasonable way to solve suspect problems, but you're ignoring the fact that the suspect has to be reasonable in the first place. We have glimpses into what a metagame might be like without SR (think early D/P), and can theorymon with that to a certain degree. But, that's beside the point. The real problem is that, as has been noted, the burden of proof here is on you.

You need to make a solid argument detailing exactly why SR is broken. I really don't feel that the monster of a thread in Stark has come close to doing anything of the sort. You do not show that it is overcentralizing - you only show that it restricts some pokemon and promotes others. In fact, there is no mention of exactly how the metagame will be better without SR other than it changes the pokemon that would be available (What, I can use Moltres? Count me in!). On the contrary, I can think of quite a few examples of how a SR free metagame would be just as 'broken' or worse. Even the results of the vote itself are questionable, as half the arguments among the 500+ posts seemed to be favoring or decrying SR itself - not making any points on the testing itself.



The worst part is, I absolutely agree about SR being undesirable for it's extreme nature. It's a shame that the harshest penalty was enforced on mostly pokemon who had issues to begin with, as well. I often think of what Moltres must have said after hearing about DP: "Okay, so you're making me take 50% damage every time I switch in, annnd Tyranitar gets Dark physical STAB as well as a SpDef boost in sandstorm? Fuck you too!"

But really, this isn't about Moltres nor being fair. If it was, we'd be testing 'Ninja Rock' in SR's place, a fighting move where a ninja would pop out from behind a rock and hit Tyranitar for 50% damage every time it switched in.

Wouldn't that create serious problems too? Sure it would, but hey - I'd get to use all my favorite pokemon while laughing as TTar tried to chase away the little ninjas! What could be better?

 

[the_artic_one]

I think you're underestimating exactly how fragile a pokemon battle can be. While most of pokemon is balanced due to being based on information, there are quite a few things which are completely out of the user's hands:

- Damage range
- Additional effects of moves
- Critical hits
- Evasion abilities/items

What happens when a crit on one pokemon ruins it's chances of dealing with not only what it was sent in to counter, but what you may need it to later in the battle? What happens when that SpDef drop from Gengar's shadow ball turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO? Those are the situations we have to deal with in every battle as it is right now, and they can easily turn a victory into a loss. Should we really support reintroducing yet another factor in the game which is beyond our control? Is this not enough 'variety'?

I don't know, is it? Without testing, we're just drawing the line of "'enough variety" in a completely arbitrary place. Besides, evasion is actually easier to control than any of the other things you listed due to moves that ignore evasion modifiers, gravity, haze, no guard, etc.

Personally, I'm absolutely okay with there being a separate group of clauses that reasonable battlers have decided hurt the competitive nature of the game, regardless of whether or not they are by definition 'broken'.

That's fine, but it won't work for us since it's against smogon's philosophy of avoiding bans.

The point is, evasion moves aren't amazing, but they can completely screw over an unprepared team (and preparing for the evasion moves leaves arguably even bigger holes in your team).

What you're doing here is theorymoning that they're broken which is a good reason to ban them but only after they are tested.

If using evasion moves was actually 'a losing strategy' by definition, you would be correct in saying we shouldn't care about them. That's not the case, however.

There are only three categories here: bad strategy, good strategy, and broken strategy. It doesn't matter which of the first two it's in because as long as it's not in the third category it should not be banned.

 

[Tangerine]

Alright, MTI, I really don't want to do this, but I think this must be done.

You've ignored literally at least 5 posts telling you to "drop your current argument, it is not valid" and to "prove to us SR is broken" and to be honest I'm a little tired of it. You think you haven't ignored much? Gee. I'm going to link to the posts JUST in PR that responds that your argument is not valid or how "you need to prove that it is broken". Ready?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1619285&postcount=50
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1619302&postcount=51
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1629573&postcount=71
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1629664&postcount=73
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1698299&postcount=147
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1702957&postcount=155
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1703455&postcount=163
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1703532&postcount=164
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1698287&postcount=92
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1699642&postcount=93
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1702992&postcount=95

And of course I've called you out in the SR thread too literally. I wonder how many times people repeated this view in that long thread because I'm not going to check it?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1703241&postcount=566

If you want to post in PR, It'd be very helpful if you were to read other people's posts and comment on them. It is very helpful to read what others have posted before and see if that stance was countered. Don't just use it as a place to constantly repeat yourself without considering other people's arguments. The idea is to clean up your arguments through intelligent people arguing back and forth, not just bring up your agenda over and over. This includes you people debating about evasion. Please read the previous Evasion thread, or even the bit where Hip and I were arguing about Evasion in this thread since they cover stuff like "uncompetitive" etc, because I believe that Hipmonlee made a good point about Evasion and we really do need to test it to see if it really does end up broken or not.

Your next post better be a much more detailed explanation of this. Don't defend yourself, "it doesn't really matter", just post your argument.

If you want to sum up my argument for a test on SR: I believe it is broken because it greatly affects pokémon usage, tiers, and it takes next to no skill to set it up with little or no consequence. Look at many of the leads out there, they are built around SR.

And why this is "broken" and "bad" for the metagame - by "bad" it means that SR makes games "too easy to win". Before you are able to do this, I don't think the site can spare any time to wait 3+ months to test SR properly. Don't resort to arguments like "people want to test it" or "it is controversial". Because frankly I'm sick of it because it really just looks like you're ignoring everyone and just posting just to have your say. I'm literally sick of those shallow arguments and the superficial "It's broken because it has an effect and I think it is bad" without any reasons to back them up

Also, please do so on the SR thread. Thank you.

 

[Hipmonlee]

It's uncompetitive, and can be easily removed without effecting anything else.

This isnt an argument, this is just a claim. You are essentially saying "it should be banned" without saying why. My only response to this is: no it isnt.

But if you want to discuss it further please post in the Evasion thread.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bologo]

Alright guys, although this thread hasn't been touched in a year, it's time to bump it.

Throughout the weeks, we've had some talk of newer suspects, and it's time to put them into the Order of Operations.

These suspects are Salamence, Wynaut, and Deoxys-D.

The thread discussing Wynaut which has made it eligible for suspect testing is here.

The threads discussing Salamence which have caused people to want a test are here and here.

Deoxys-D has been talked about for a test a lot, even in this very thread where people didn't seem to have any problem with testing it. I'm not completely sure why it wasn't in the first batch of suspects, but if there wasn't any reason, I see no reason to not let it have its chance. If an actual thread devoted to Deoxys-D discussion is needed, I can make it, or if anyone else wants to, feel free.

We should decide where, if they are put in, should their position be in the order of operations. Ie. Do we want to do these before the clauses or after the clauses? Which order would we be testing them in?

 

[mtr]

I agree with Bologo on Deoxys-D. I was wondering why it wasn't tested, seeing as it is underwhelming defensively (overall, worse than Cresselia except for Recover). The answer I got was that it was probably Uber under the support characteristic (the ease at which it could erect entry hazards). However, in the current metagame, that's debatable, given the ubiquity of Tyranitar and Scizor. Therefore, should we have time, it deserves a go.

 

[Jumpman16]

Here is "the" thread about Deoxys-D by the way:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50603

I know we don't base our Order of Operations on what people post in Stark but this thread is a good starting point for Deoxys-D, or at least shows that there was a discussion thread about it and that most people did NOT think it should be a Suspect and this is before it got Trick (even if Scizor is more popular now too for the same reason).

 

[Bologo]

Hmm, I think we should make another discussion thread for Deoxys-D (I don't think it actually got one only for PR), since the metagame has definitely changed from January 2009. I'd say the addition of Trick for all Psychics & Ghosts in Platinum arguably hurt Deoxys-D more than it helped it. TrickScarf has become a really popular strategy, making the game much more offensive. Plus, as mentioned, Scizor has gotten a lot more popular.

Also, Deoxys-D did have Trick back in January 2009, since Platinum came out in Sept 2008 I believe. In addition, Trick was horribly broken back then since a double Trick on a Choice user enabled you to switch moves.

EDIT: A Deoxys-D discussion has been made in PR for those who want to discuss it.