I was under the impression that it was a fail-safe so that if you had a badge/PR access but didn't actually play the game you couldn't vote. I understand where you're coming from Syberia, but since I know that anyone who can post here is a skilled enough battler to retain the relatively low rating of 1650. My point is simply that if you are capable of getting to that threshold, then you should prove it.
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Order of Operations
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
Hey guys, I was wondering which suspects we should be getting rid of and which ones we should be putting into this order of operations due to Platinum changes.
I'm voting that we get rid of Darkrai now. With the addition of Nasty Plot, there is absolutely no way that this thing will actually fit into OU, seriously. Before Platinum changes, I would have thought it had a chance in OU, but now I believe that it has little to no chance of actually being worthwhile to our testing.
We obviously have Skymin as one of our suspects, so perhaps that should be added to the list in the OP.
Also, I think there's a potential suspect that we simply missed when we were going over this. I'm talking about Deoxys-D. People have been saying that this should be a suspect for a long time, but I think we just plain forgot about it when we were making a thread, which is a pity, because I think it actually has a good chance of passing the 1st stage.
I'm voting that we get rid of Darkrai now. With the addition of Nasty Plot, there is absolutely no way that this thing will actually fit into OU, seriously. Before Platinum changes, I would have thought it had a chance in OU, but now I believe that it has little to no chance of actually being worthwhile to our testing.
We obviously have Skymin as one of our suspects, so perhaps that should be added to the list in the OP.
Also, I think there's a potential suspect that we simply missed when we were going over this. I'm talking about Deoxys-D. People have been saying that this should be a suspect for a long time, but I think we just plain forgot about it when we were making a thread, which is a pity, because I think it actually has a good chance of passing the 1st stage.
Skymin is already mentioned just above the list in the OP.
With Nasty Plot, I also feel that Darkrai crossed into "obviously Uber" territory (as if it wasn't before).
I am also in favor of testing Deoxys-D. I personally feel that it, and not deo-speed, is the non-Uber of the deoxyses.
I'm also really confused as to why anybody would ever possibly think that Mew isn't Uber, I can't wait to dominate the suspect ladder with it!
But yeah, Bologo does bring up a good point: this list does need a slight tweak or two now that Platinum is here.
With Nasty Plot, I also feel that Darkrai crossed into "obviously Uber" territory (as if it wasn't before).
I am also in favor of testing Deoxys-D. I personally feel that it, and not deo-speed, is the non-Uber of the deoxyses.
I'm also really confused as to why anybody would ever possibly think that Mew isn't Uber, I can't wait to dominate the suspect ladder with it!
But yeah, Bologo does bring up a good point: this list does need a slight tweak or two now that Platinum is here.
yeah i meant to get around to taking darkrai off the list, oh well
dxd is another issue on which we should all probably weigh in, but it's not like we'd be losing time in the whole process since im going to ignore anyone who thinks darkrai isn't obviously uber now
mew eh we can talk about i guess, someone tell me what makes it much more obviously uber now than it was before plat because no one said anything then
dxd is another issue on which we should all probably weigh in, but it's not like we'd be losing time in the whole process since im going to ignore anyone who thinks darkrai isn't obviously uber now
mew eh we can talk about i guess, someone tell me what makes it much more obviously uber now than it was before plat because no one said anything then
Shaymin-S and DX-S should be finalized soon but I'd like to press UU Tiers being next. I'm not going to lie it's a mess in there and it's needed to be swept with a re-make of the tier itself. Some Pokemon just don't belong in UU and need to be removed.
I'm not the one to weigh this in usually but I feel we should focus on UU Tiers as soon as possible before we go around considering more Pokemon for OU in general.
I'm not the one to weigh this in usually but I feel we should focus on UU Tiers as soon as possible before we go around considering more Pokemon for OU in general.
I'd also argue that the more we wait for ou to stabilize to start redefining uu , the more stagnant and unpopular the old/ new metagames will be respectively..
the problem is of course that simultaneously remaking uu and ou is bound to start of shaky, and require a fuckton of work. if we're up for it though, i think we should scrap the old metagame asap..
the problem is of course that simultaneously remaking uu and ou is bound to start of shaky, and require a fuckton of work. if we're up for it though, i think we should scrap the old metagame asap..
UU should have OU stabilised first in order to work on it, in my opinion.
On the other hand, I agree that we shouldn't take too much to start to deal with it - otherwise we risk starting to stabilise UU when another new game is released!
It can also be dealt with in parallel with the OU tiers... it doesn't need to be tackled after all the OU stuff is tested.
On the other hand, I agree that we shouldn't take too much to start to deal with it - otherwise we risk starting to stabilise UU when another new game is released!
It can also be dealt with in parallel with the OU tiers... it doesn't need to be tackled after all the OU stuff is tested.
Deoxys-D needs to be given a shot, it has a lot of options but it didn't gain much with Platinum and with the current state of the metagame (so offensive its ridiculous) I don't see it posing that much of a threat to most teams.
Mew gained nothing with Platinum aside from Trick really but I don't see why we were discussing Mew in the first place. If you thought Dual Screen Baton Passing was bad with things like Gliscor and Ambipom passing, then you're not even going to want to touch on the subject of Mew. Some people think that if Deoxys-S goes to Ubers that the problem with DS will be solved but that won't solve anything as Azelf can easily take it's place as the next fast Dual Screen user and aside from Azelf they are many other bulky Pokemon that can do it like Celebi and Bronzong. Mew should be left where it is in the Uber tier.
Darkrai: Yeah, Darkrai is obviously uber now.
Deoxys-D: I too believe Deoxys-D should be given a shot (and as Jump said we aren't really losing time since its replacing Darkrai's time slot). There are a lot of hard hitters in the OU tier that can inflict heavy damage to this wall and should probably be considered. Pure Psychic typing isn't that great and I think a lot of us would admit resistances are becoming more and more important when walling, not just stats.
Mew: I personally didn't think this should ever be considered for standard (I didn't get my ladybug until later so I couldn't voice my opinion at the time though). That said, in the transition to Platinum Mew got basically nothing. Even in ubers I've only seen one Trick Mew. If this was considered viable in standard a few ago, Platinum didn't change that at all and testing should go ahead (but once again I don't agree with the initial assumption that it should have been considered viable a few months ago).
Deoxys-D: I too believe Deoxys-D should be given a shot (and as Jump said we aren't really losing time since its replacing Darkrai's time slot). There are a lot of hard hitters in the OU tier that can inflict heavy damage to this wall and should probably be considered. Pure Psychic typing isn't that great and I think a lot of us would admit resistances are becoming more and more important when walling, not just stats.
Mew: I personally didn't think this should ever be considered for standard (I didn't get my ladybug until later so I couldn't voice my opinion at the time though). That said, in the transition to Platinum Mew got basically nothing. Even in ubers I've only seen one Trick Mew. If this was considered viable in standard a few ago, Platinum didn't change that at all and testing should go ahead (but once again I don't agree with the initial assumption that it should have been considered viable a few months ago).
But one of Deo-E's greatest assets was its speed; Deo-D doesn't have that really. Plenty of non-Scarf pokemon beat it, even if it decides to run max.
With the way the metagame is right now, I don't think it's possible for any 1 pokemon to make the game centered around stall. Like Maniac said, the game is so ridiculously offensive right now that IMO, adding a stall pokemon like Deoxys-D who doesn't have obscene stats in every category could actually help to balance the OU tier a bit more.
I'll be honest and say that Mew should definitely stay in ubers. Mew is already ridiculously uncounterable in ubers. DS to passing Mew is an absolute terror and you pretty much need strange stuff to counter it like Scarftaunt Darkrai. It's not touching suspect anytime soon.
I agree that UU/BL can be combined before all the ubers get sorted out. While the banning/unbanning of 1 to 2 Pokemon each monnth can make a difference on whether a Pokemon is OU or BL, the difference is relatively small and waiting until every suspect has been tested seems unecessary.
Also if anyone's checked out the Ho-oh thread in Stark, I think that enough of an argument can be made for Ho-oh in OU that it at least warrants testing at some point. Unlike some other ubers I can't say that Ho-oh would definitely overcentralize OU, it has some issues overall.
Also if anyone's checked out the Ho-oh thread in Stark, I think that enough of an argument can be made for Ho-oh in OU that it at least warrants testing at some point. Unlike some other ubers I can't say that Ho-oh would definitely overcentralize OU, it has some issues overall.
I don't see how the addition of one pokemon per month into OU is going to have much of an impact on UU/BL. We can manage the one or two changes that would result from it on a case by case basis. I don't think that is a big deal at all. Let's deal with UU at the same time as these suspect tests. There isn't any advantage to doing this at a separate time as the OU tests since none of the pokemon involved are OU, it would literally have no impact or crossover. The "one step at a time" thing isn't relevant here, I actually want to see something get done to improve the inarguably broken UU tier (whether it be adding the BLs and/or adding all NFEs etc)
Actually, I have checked the Ho-oh thread in stark and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Even with Stealth Rock, the simple fact that most OU pokemon cant break through Ho-oh's defenses is more than enough, then we get to that movepool and its other stats and the fact that water types cant counter it.....Sure, it has some issues but its strengths more than overshadow them.
Jump, I'm not sure why Mew changed much from dp to platinum, but I personally think it was "obviously uber" in d/p. Now that we know that deoxys-speed isnt just Bronzong bait, Dual Screen Deoxys-Speed -> Mew -> anything is basically unstoppable even in Ubers as Jibbles said. It will only take a few days before everyone realizes that Mew doesn't give two shits about Tyranitar, Weavile or Gengar. I'm not sure whos idea it was to ever include Mew as a suspect, but someone wasn't thinking =\
I agree that Skymin needs to be the next suspect tested after Deoxys-Speed. Even though I think it is massively overhyped, I guess I would support a test.
I will personally be surprised if it gets booted to Ubers. I have yet to lose a single pokemon to Skymin, I've been really unimpressed with it. Skymin looks much better on paper than it actually plays out (I attribute most of this to it having the most overrated ability in the game which overshadows the fact that it's still a grass type). The game hasn't centralized around it any more than its centralized around every change that Platinum brought. My current OU team is unchanged from d/p to platinum and I have yet to encounter any difficulty, which leads me to believe that all of this is merely hype, speculation and nothing more.
Actually, I have checked the Ho-oh thread in stark and I was thoroughly unimpressed. Even with Stealth Rock, the simple fact that most OU pokemon cant break through Ho-oh's defenses is more than enough, then we get to that movepool and its other stats and the fact that water types cant counter it.....Sure, it has some issues but its strengths more than overshadow them.
Jump, I'm not sure why Mew changed much from dp to platinum, but I personally think it was "obviously uber" in d/p. Now that we know that deoxys-speed isnt just Bronzong bait, Dual Screen Deoxys-Speed -> Mew -> anything is basically unstoppable even in Ubers as Jibbles said. It will only take a few days before everyone realizes that Mew doesn't give two shits about Tyranitar, Weavile or Gengar. I'm not sure whos idea it was to ever include Mew as a suspect, but someone wasn't thinking =\
I agree that Skymin needs to be the next suspect tested after Deoxys-Speed. Even though I think it is massively overhyped, I guess I would support a test.
I will personally be surprised if it gets booted to Ubers. I have yet to lose a single pokemon to Skymin, I've been really unimpressed with it. Skymin looks much better on paper than it actually plays out (I attribute most of this to it having the most overrated ability in the game which overshadows the fact that it's still a grass type). The game hasn't centralized around it any more than its centralized around every change that Platinum brought. My current OU team is unchanged from d/p to platinum and I have yet to encounter any difficulty, which leads me to believe that all of this is merely hype, speculation and nothing more.
Aggreed that Deoxys-D should be tested, and that Mew and Darkrai shouldn't be suspects.
I am still of the belief that Ho-oh should not be tested in OU.
I would also have no problem with the testing of UU/BL/NFE unless someone can give me a reason why those two are unable to run concurrently once we get the October stats. The moving of pokemon from OU to BL shouldn't be a problem then because I don't see many pokemon moving because of the suspects that would be tested.
I am still of the belief that Ho-oh should not be tested in OU.
I would also have no problem with the testing of UU/BL/NFE unless someone can give me a reason why those two are unable to run concurrently once we get the October stats. The moving of pokemon from OU to BL shouldn't be a problem then because I don't see many pokemon moving because of the suspects that would be tested.
hate to say it but "what about now lol" (dx-s is uber)
I'd like to rework the list in the first page (quoted below)... to this:
1. Skymin
2. Lati@s
3. Evasion Clause
4. Manaphy
5. Species Clause
6. OHKO Clause
7. Ho-oh
8. Mew
9. Arceus
10. UU tiers
Once we have reached some stability in the OU game, I wouldn't be opposed to beginning UU testing concurrently with Ho-oh in my list above. DX-D could probably be thrown in around the 8 or 9 slot if people want.
1. Skymin
2. Lati@s
3. Evasion Clause
4. Manaphy
5. Species Clause
6. OHKO Clause
7. Ho-oh
8. Mew
9. Arceus
10. UU tiers
Once we have reached some stability in the OU game, I wouldn't be opposed to beginning UU testing concurrently with Ho-oh in my list above. DX-D could probably be thrown in around the 8 or 9 slot if people want.
Well, the dual screen -> mew -> anything can still be done and it is still unstoppable, but it is significantly harder now. However, it is still a completely broken strategy even against Ubers teams and if for some reason Mew is still a suspect when it comes time for testing, I fully plan on abusing dual screen/mewpass on every one of my teams to dominate the ladder.
The removal of Deoxys-S did put a dent in Mew's armor, but it's wearing like 10 chain mail vests as far as I'm concerned, Mew is uber because of Baton Pass. Sure, Hypnosis, Taunt and every other move in the game are one thing, but when you can Baton Pass any stat, stop any counter with Taunt and Hypnosis, and then get out for free with those defenses and Softboiled, you are a really really really good pokemon, basically impossible to take down alone. Oh, and then it gets to pass away and essentially give itself another life.
Also, Aeolus, I like your list but I would put Deoxys-D right after Species Clause and take Mew out completely.
Would it be possible to start the UU test after we get the October Tier List? The way I see it, we won't be adjusting the tier list for 2 months, so it is a good time to start. Plus, any pokemon that might become OU again, would prbly be the ones found to imbalance UU, so they would be moved out before the December tier List.
I think we should either test SR and not test OHKO/Evasion, or not test SR and keep OHKO and Evasion as suspects.
As far as I can see, we can only have two "real" options when deciding whether or not something is a suspect. Which is
1) Minimize Rules - which means "challenge current standards". This means that we are attempting to create a game that is literally the "closest to the game possible" and only ban when something is broken.
2) Create the most competitive game possible. If this is the case, we can justify testing SR - but I don't think anyone will agree that testing OHKO moves and Evasion will lead to a more "competitive" metagame, considering a huge part of competition is to minimize luck and reward skill.
I think testing SR and testing of OHKO moves/Evasion/Species clause is contradictory - we are "minimizing rules" and "maximizing competition" at the same time, but they are literally ideals that go off in an opposite direction and I don't think it is possible to give a convincing reconciliation between them (I assume that we are already taking the "least" number of rules to get the "maximum" competition. This can lead down to a huge slippery slope of mechanic issues)
But of course, if you're trying to "increase" competition - it's nice to know what is a more "competitive" metagame, anyway, which has hardly been defined. The way we are going about things, right now, is a system based on preference where the players decide (and I'm sure everyone knows my stance on this already). This is why I think that we shouldn't be looking for the most "competitive" game possible - especially since it is so poorly defined. Rather, we should aim to minimize rules as much as possible.
As far as I can see, we can only have two "real" options when deciding whether or not something is a suspect. Which is
1) Minimize Rules - which means "challenge current standards". This means that we are attempting to create a game that is literally the "closest to the game possible" and only ban when something is broken.
2) Create the most competitive game possible. If this is the case, we can justify testing SR - but I don't think anyone will agree that testing OHKO moves and Evasion will lead to a more "competitive" metagame, considering a huge part of competition is to minimize luck and reward skill.
I think testing SR and testing of OHKO moves/Evasion/Species clause is contradictory - we are "minimizing rules" and "maximizing competition" at the same time, but they are literally ideals that go off in an opposite direction and I don't think it is possible to give a convincing reconciliation between them (I assume that we are already taking the "least" number of rules to get the "maximum" competition. This can lead down to a huge slippery slope of mechanic issues)
But of course, if you're trying to "increase" competition - it's nice to know what is a more "competitive" metagame, anyway, which has hardly been defined. The way we are going about things, right now, is a system based on preference where the players decide (and I'm sure everyone knows my stance on this already). This is why I think that we shouldn't be looking for the most "competitive" game possible - especially since it is so poorly defined. Rather, we should aim to minimize rules as much as possible.