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OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

My experience with OTR Reuniclus tempted me to try something similar and I've had quite the success with the underrated threat that is his alter ego: the fearsome Alakazam! The ease in which he cleans teams is just incredible and he outspeeds pretty much the entire OU metagame making him a threatening presence the opponent must prepare for in the end game. Magic Guard is an enormous boon for the frail magician as he is not only able to hold the Life Orb without taking damage, but is also immune to weather damage as well as status. In the opponent's presepective, it is devastating to the mind's prediction abilities. Imagine having to sacrifice a Pokemon just because you think it has a Focus sash knowing that Pokemon can survive the attack if your prediction is correct and KO the next turn either by outspeeding or priority. But wait! It could also be holding a Life Orb. XD So should you send in your Scarf Terrakion and risk it? I'm often finding myself in this situation whenever I'm faced with an Alakazam as an opponent. So you see, its ability can have a psychological benefit as well (though this is somewhat irrelevant here since everyone can see the project). Still I think Alakazam would be the perfect Pokemon for this project, not too popular now, but definitely can be in the near future (I saw somewhere it was high up in usage in DW). It's also good to have a clear focus for the end game which Alakazam can be the center of. The fact it's among the best at its job only helps this cause. The set I propose is debatable.

Spr_1b_065.png

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid
~ Psychic
~ Focus Blast
~ Shadow Ball
~ Charge Beam / Protect / Substitute

The reason Charge Beam is slashed first is because IMO I've found it to be the most effective for cleaning which Alakazam does. Send it in on something like Gyarados and it'll be the equivalent of giving it a moxie boost, but for its special attacks. The ease at which it sweeps after the boost is simply incredible. I've found Protect and Substitute to be decent options as well, but to be honest, Alakazam is better off focusing on sweeping unhindered instead of worrying about Scizor and Tyranitar. That's what teammates are for so let's get cracking! :pimp:
 
MetaGross66 said:
My experience with OTR Reuniclus tempted me to try something similar and I've had quite the success with the underrated threat that is his alter ego: the fearsome Alakazam! The ease in which he cleans teams is just incredible and he outspeeds pretty much the entire OU metagame making him a threatening presence the opponent must prepare for in the end game. Magic Guard is an enormous boon for the frail magician as he is not only able to hold the Life Orb without taking damage, but is also immune to weather damage as well as status. In the opponent's presepective, it is devastating to the mind's prediction abilities. Imagine having to sacrifice a Pokemon just because you think it has a Focus sash knowing that Pokemon can survive the attack if your prediction is correct and KO the next turn either by outspeeding or priority. But wait! It could also be holding a Life Orb. XD So should you send in your Scarf Terrakion and risk it? I'm often finding myself in this situation whenever I'm faced with an Alakazam as an opponent. So you see, its ability can have a psychological benefit as well (though this is somewhat irrelevant here since everyone can see the project). Still I think Alakazam would be the perfect Pokemon for this project, not too popular now, but definitely can be in the near future (I saw somewhere it was high up in usage in DW). It's also good to have a clear focus for the end game which Alakazam can be the center of. The fact it's among the best at its job only helps this cause. The set I propose is debatable.

Spr_1b_065.png

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid
~ Psychic
~ Focus Blast
~ Shadow Ball
~ Charge Beam / Protect / Substitute

The reason Charge Beam is slashed first is because IMO I've found it to be the most effective for cleaning which Alakazam does. Send it in on something like Gyarados and it'll be the equivalent of giving it a moxie boost, but for its special attacks. The ease at which it sweeps after the boost is simply incredible. I've found Protect and Substitute to be decent options as well, but to be honest, Alakazam is better off focusing on sweeping unhindered instead of worrying about Scizor and Tyranitar. That's what teammates are for so let's get cracking! :pimp:
Click to expand...

I definitely will support Alakazam. I know that this set is pretty similar to the standard Alakazam, but I frankly believe that Alakazam itself is pretty under-rated. It cleans up mess like nothing else.

Nomination:

477.png

Name
AcroBat
Item : Flying Gem
Ability: Sand Veil
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Moveset
~ Swords Dance
~ Acrobatics
~ Earthquake
~ Substitute

A very under-rated set. And a frustrating one to face too, thanks to sand veil. It can easily eliminate Rotom-w and can even sweep if you can remove Skarmory and co. At +2, you are talking about a Pokemon who has a 600+ attack with 100+powered Stab moves. It would be an interesting focus for our CCat. SO what do you guys think?
 
Yeah its a cool set. My main question is why is it better than the SubToxic set, which beats Rotom-W just as well, and many of its other counters actually more easily? Both still get walled by Skarmory. I guess AcroBat has an easier time against Fighting types generally but of course its not immune to Breloom's Spore now.

On the other hand there's no denying the sheer number of ragequits you get if you stack that set with paralysis support. Always fun for when you get tired of being on the receiving end of hax.
 
ehh I dislike us running Gliscor is its not really a "forgotten wonder". Its pretty common, and Acrobat and Sub Toxic are the most common sets it can run. Now if we were running something like offensive Double Dance Gliscor, then you can come and talk to me.
 
OK I've decided not to submit another Heracross set because Heracross is generally pretty bad. The most effective set for me was a Choice Band set (probably a slower, bulkier version) but it really still wasn't good enough.

Plus the acrobatics Gliscor is IMO way more threatening than the pathetic SubToxic sets. That set is really scary, but is very common as the guy above me said.

Alakazam: this is a tricky one. If it weren't for the existence of a focus sash set, I'd say that it would be totally outclassed by the likes of Latios. And, as you said, there will be no surprise value in the CCAT team. I really can't believe how frail that thing is; it gets OHKOed by neutral or NVE moves all the time, and has never done any damage to me really except for outrageous hax. IMO Alakazam is actually extremely overrated.
 
jc, you've probably never seen it used in the hands of a good player. There is no comparing Alakazam to Latios. Alakazam doesn't lose to Tyranitar like Latios does, outspeeds the base 110 group making it a great revenge killer if need be, and has a higher base Special Attack stat with immunity to passive damage. The way you described it, it'll have to be taking hits. You're playing it wrong. You send it out in the end game when you eliminate all priority/scarf users and weaken at least one Pokemon to where CB can KO. At this point you pretty much have the match won, as the opponent can't just stall you out of Life Orb damage like they can with Latios. This CCAT could prove it isn't outclassed in its role.
 
Must admit I've never been the one playing it lol. When I see something fail so miserably against me so many times, I don't want to use it.

I must slightly question whether it is the best cleaner available though. You may be using it only when you already have the battle won.
 
That's my only gripe with it. I often have to save it until late in the game to clean up (unless I know I can sweep with it really early) instead of being able to switch it into something early game like I can with Latios. I still believe it'd make for a superior cleaner to Latios however. Just not as useful as Latios can be midgame being able to handle Rotom-W and such. That's what makes it the ideal pokemon for CCAT. It fills a role that not many other Pokemon can as effectively allowing the team to be centered around it (eg. Maggy to get rid of scizor, entry hazards user, lure for revenge killers, etc.)

I quickly threw together a team to sort of test the set. Zam is definitely pulling its weight. My only issue with it is FB's accuracy. It cost me a game >.<. Here are all the battles I recorded so far that I had with it so as to prevent any cherrypicking. >.> I'll admit there was a lot of hax in these battles, some really game changing (just watch the last one). I kinda loled after watching these again.

http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-chokmi-vs-DRELeMenT--2012-04-02
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-chokmi-vs-ShadowFox--2012-04-02
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Deuxheroalt-vs-chokmi--2012-04-02
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-chokmi-vs-POW-L--2012-04-02
 
I just thought I'd throw an idea out there for the possibility of a hail (or weather/anti-weather in general) team: Raikou.

Raikou @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Pressure
252 SpA / 4 SpD/ 252 Spe
Rash Nature
~ Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
~ Weather Ball
~ Aura Sphere
~ Hidden Power (Grass?) / Calm Mind / Substitute

Powerful STAB Thunderbolt or Volt Switch and a strong Ice/Water/Fire/Rock move in Weather Ball, with Aura Sphere to provide cool coverage. The last slot can be occupied by some sort of Hidden Power or the filler of choice. It could prove to be a multipurpose weather abuser as well, with Weather Ball adapting to whatever weather's on the field. Thunderbolt stays consistent and powerful no matter the weather whereas Volt Switch gets momentum, and Aura Sphere hurts Tyranitar, Heatran, etc. The Hidden Power type could get a little weird with possible weather changes making Weather Ball the better option in some scenarios. I listed Grass for the sake of Gastrodon, but it could be a lot of stuff, or maybe Shadow Ball even. Without weather it's a bit lackluster, though. Rash nature-lock is unfortunate but necessary for Weather Ball and Aura Sphere.

This could be a nom, but it could also be something to chew on as far as a teammate goes. It doesn't provide much in the way of resistances, but at least it doesn't add many weaknesses. It brings versatility to the table, at the very least.
 
Here's my nomination (I know you'll be a fan of this Pocket):
131.png

Lapras @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 120 Atk / 152 SDef / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Return/Toxic
- Rest
(BTW a Curse set or modified EVs/Nature might be better, this is just what I'm using now.)

This is possibly one of the most underrated OU threats currently. It has an excellent boosting move to make up for it's lackluster speed, as well as status immunity and a cost-free full heal move under the rain to help it get those boosts off for a powerful sweep. While many are dissuaded from using Lapras due to it's weaknesses to common OU pokes such as Terrakion, Scizor, and Ferrothorn, it can be still a powerful threat with the right support (notably Dual Screen and Drizzle). I think using Lapras would make battles very dynamic and interesting, especially considering Hydration (not as cool as Magic Bounce but still). So, aside from being adorable, Lapras has a lot of potential in higher tiers, and I hope it gets picked. LAPRAS FOR OU!
 
pkfrlg145.png

Zapdos @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Ice
- Roost

Life Orb Zapdos is very underrated, but very effective. 125 base Special Attack is enough to deal out some huge hits, especially when paired with a solid STAB Thunderbolt. Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice provide solid coverage, taking care of the likes of Ferrothorn and Dragonite. Life Orb Zapdos is great on bulky offense teams, as it has speed, power, and bulk. Its typing also provides it a lot of opportunities to switch in against the likes of Scizor, which lets it fire off a powerful attack. Roost is the icing on the cake, as Zapdos can just Roost when it gets low on health from Life Orb recoil.
 
233.png

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
-Tri Attack
-Discharge
-Ice Beam
-Recover

Porygon2 isn't exactly underrated in OU but offensive sets sure are. 105 base Special Attack with full investment hits very hard and thanks to Eviolite and full HP Porygon2 has very bulky defensive stats of 374 / 325 / 339. It has great coverage thanks to pseudo BoltBeam and Tri Attack for STAB and neutral coverage. Recover lets Porygon2 stay healthy (not a lot, especially on stall/balanced teams, can 2HKO this Porygon2). Download is excellent considering how physically based the metagame is. It can come in on Scizor, Forretress, most Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Skarmory and others to get the Special Attack boost and start firing off attacks.
 
Scrafty @ LumBerry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Spe / 4 Def / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Ice Punch
-Hi Jump Kick
-Crunch

WHY?

Because it should increase scrafty usage and it will be funny to piss off all the people who play UU who cream themselves over the thought of scrafty dropping down to UU.
 
Razza said:
Scrafty @ LumBerry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Spe / 4 Def / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Ice Punch
-Hi Jump Kick
-Crunch

WHY?

Because it should increase scrafty usage and it will be funny to piss off all the people who play UU who cream themselves over the thought of scrafty dropping down to UU.
Click to expand...

i already nominated the same scrafty
 
posting to say that Nominations will close very soon and a poll will be up shortly so now is the time for any last minute submissions
 
noms end now - ginganinja will post the Stage 1 ballot soon! Thank you all for the noms and discussion!
 
VOTING

Firstly, Pocket and I would like to extend a big thank you to all of you who submitted nominations. We received an outstanding number of nominations so well done to you all.

Secondly, it is now time for the voting on what pokemon we select for our CCAT. It is IR VOTING

To Vote we would like each user nominate FIVE sets on what our CCAT member should be. You rank them in order of preference. I also highly recomend that you BOLD them so its easier for Pocket and I to count the votes when the voting period ends.

jc104's awesome description for IR voting can be found here

In your nominations post you are fully welcome to provide reasons why you selected those 5, why you put them in that order etc etc. You don't have to, it is totally optional (although if you provide good enough reasoning you might convince people to vote for similar pokemon to you!)

And so, for CCAT #2 here is our final Ballot

Stage 1 Ballot
You may note that certain pokemon did not make the final ballot. This is due to a number of reasons. For starters, Pocket and I felt that, due to the huge amount of nominations we received, we had to cull some nominations to make the list shorter. We also felt that there were certain sets, that failed to meet our criteria for "Forgotten Wonder". Below are the sets that were culled. Do note that even if a set is "culled" it is still perfectly viable for a team-mate vote so its still possible it could make the final team.

Culled Sets
Wish CM Jirachi
OTR Reuniclus
Acrobatics Gliscor
SD Toxicroak
LO Mienshao
Sharpedo
Kyurem
Hydreigon Sub 3 Atks
Haxorus DD
Latios Sub 3 Atks

CM + Wish Jirachi, OTR Reuniclus, Acrobatics Gliscor, SD Toxicroak, LO Mienshao and Hydreigon Sub 3 Atks were all removed due to Pocket and I feeling that the sets were too common in the metagame, and did not fit the goal of the CCAT.

Sub 3 Attacks Latios (while not common) was judged to play exceptionally similar to standard, Offensive Latios, and ideally Pocket and I wanted to target lesser used sets or pokemon.

Sharpedo, DD Haxorus, and Sub Kyurem were all "forgotten" however both Pocket and I felt that there were already popular teams that were built around the above pokemon, and again, we wanted something new and original. As stated above these pokemon are not "banned" from CCAT, just prevented from being the pokemon we build the team around. In Kyurems case we also ideally wanted to prevent a similar problem with the last CCAT where Abomasnow and Kyurem split votes handicapping both pokemon.

Pocket and I apologise to all users that submitted their nominations but hope that they stick with the CCAT and help use create a damn good team.

There is no deadline on voting as yet, Pocket and I will likely set a deadline within the next few days after judging activity, number of votes etc etc, don't worry though, we will give you all fair indication of when the voting closes.

With all this tl;dr stuff out of the way I invite you all to vote for your Top Five nominations for our target pokemon for CCAT #2. Don't forget to rank them and have fun!

EDIT

Don't forget to thank Pocket for helping with the tidy formatting of this ballot too!!!!
 
Aerodactyl (LO + taunt)
Zapdos (LO tank)
Omastar (Shell smash)
Jirachi (choice specs Doom Desire)
Alright the jirachi pick needs some Explaining. I was skeptical of DD on a special rachi, especially with the nerfs it suffered coming into this gen, but I ran it through some calcs and my god. The damage out-put is absurd. Anything that isn't pretty specially bulky or resist steel will be OHKO'd or left on a sliver. Seriously put it in Honko's offensive calc, you will be impressed.

With it working like future sight you can even force Check-like situations. For example: You swith rachi into a ttar that sets up SR. They switch to tran anticipating Iron head as you go for a DD. You bring in terrakion to tank the fire move next turn, and all of a sudden they're stuck. If they switch something will tale massive damage from DD, but if they stay in terrakion could set-up, or destroy trann with a CC.

That said being locked into a hit 3 turns later unstackable move kinda sucks. Pretty sure we can't change sets to a cool LO one, but I still like the idea behind this, even if I feel it's item is limiting it.
Machamp (Sub)
 
1.Kingdra (Rain Dance) - Ningildo
2.Staraptor (Sub Roost) - typon77
3.Jirachi (Choice Specs & Doom Desire) - ginganinja
4.Zoroark (Illusion) - Katakiri
5.Mew (Nasty Plot) - HoiPolloi and Lady Alex

Explanation

I picked Kingdra first because I really love how anti metagame it is right now. It really has excellent bulk, and can turn the game on its head with Rain Dance. After rain Dance, it pretty much outspeeds the entire metagame, and fucks shit up with its powerful dual STABS. In addition, it can easily punish a careless weather team that sacrifices there weather setter early, as Kingdra can set up a Rain Dance, changing the weather, and threatening a sweep. While it does have weaknesses to pokemon such as Jellicent, Vaporeon, and Ferrothorn, I judge these pokemon to be easy to check, making it even easier to find ways to handle them.

Staraptor was my second pick, as I feel that he has real potential in this metagame, and don't worry about much. 100 base speed is still very good in this metagame, and while it has problems with Rotom W and Scizor, it still hits like a fucking nuke and has Close Combat to cripple something like Heatran that might try and wall a Brave Bird. I think its blend of power and speed would really allow us to hurt large amounts of the metagame and thus, its my second choice.

Specs Doom Desire Jirachi is my baby and I really like its untapped potential. It hits like a fucking nuke, OHKOing sht like Celebi after Stealth Rock (in my experience anyway) and really screwing Volt Turn over (since its easy enough to bring in something that Scizor and Rotom W hate switching into thus forcing something (like Landorus) to get KOed). Specs Jirachi is a classic example of a pokemon that can really work, provided that it has the correct team-mates which can abuse the massive holes it blasts through the opponents team, while Jirachi throws up Doom Desires to prevent counters to its partner pokemon from switching in as easily. (Also I nommed it and shamelessly need an ego boost!!)

Zoroark was my fourth choice but I am very excited about it possible having a CCAT being built around it. Zoroark is similar to Specs Jirachi, in that both need solid partners in order to fully achieve their potential. Zoroark also puts a lot of exphasis on intelligent play and it can really hurt people that play the ladder on auto pilot as Zoroark catchs them out and can put the game in your favour. Zoroark (with the right play) can sometimes force your opponent into a lose lose situation, and it keeps them guessing, perhapes forcing a conservative playstyle. Its also makes our CCAT rather difficult to counterteam on the ladder, one of the possible flaws already discussed is the lack of surprise in our team. Zoroark helps limit this somewhat as even tho our opponent might know our team, its still hard to know what Zoroark is masquerading as!!!

My Final Pick was Nasty Plot Mew. From experience, I know it to be a very solid pokemon, and while I tend to run Baton Pass over Flamethrower, its still very effective in this metagame. Base 100 defences across the board is deceptively bulky, letting it tank a few hits that both allows it to set up easier, as well as making it slightly difficult for the opponent to revenge. However, I also reckon its easy to fit on a team as a teammate, which was why I ranked to so low (in my noms).

Pokemon I was guttered not to be able to fit on my nomination: Heracross, SD Mienshao, Specs Lucario, and Abomasnow

EDIT

Pretty sure we can't change sets to a cool LO one, but I still like the idea behind this, even if I feel it's item is limiting it.
Click to expand...

Just pointing out that during the course of a CCAT its entirely possible that items and moves can change (CCAT #1 had Nidoking had a move changed and like 50% of the team removed). I don't think Pocket and I would support a massive change (ie switching from a Mixed Mence to a Dragon Dance Mence but a simple change (Leftovers on NP Mew rather than LO for example) that didn't effect what the final set was designed to do im sure would be allowed. It is currently something Pocket and I are discussing on the possibility that a situation such as this crops up.
 
1. Medicham (Substitute) - Pocket
2. Zoroark (Illusion) - Katakiri
3. Nidoqueen (Toxic Spikes)
4. Abomasnow (Physical Leech Seed) - AfroThunderRule
5. Machamp (Substitute) - Tomahawk9

If I needed to express preference between the Nidoqueens, please change the vote to Medicham, Zoroark, Nidoqueen 1, Nidoqueen 2, Abomasnow. Edit: turns out I don't.

Just one thing: I'm pretty sure that Life Orb still doesn't boost Doom Desire, which is a shame. Still, a LO or leftovers set would work with a similar principle to the specs set, so it probably is a feasible change.

@ginganinja: that link to my post doesn't work
 
@ginganinja: that link to my post doesn't work
Click to expand...
Fixed, had one error in the thing and it fucked up -_-

NOTE TO ALL
You don't need to differentiate between EV spreads.
If for example, there was 2 Mixed Salamence sets, one with Hydro Pump over Fire Blast and the other with Fire Blast then you don't differentiate either. If however, the same pokemon is mentioned twice on the ballot THEN you differentiate.

If that was't simple enough, stick with what's on the ballot, if you want to change a move or something we can slash it, get immediate discussion afterwards if its important, or fix it towards the end of the CCAT (like we did with Nidoking).

EDIT

lol Pocket, myself and Jc104 all have the same number of posts in this thread O_o
 
1. Nidoqueen (Toxic Spikes)
2. Zoroark (Illusion)
3. Abomasnow (physical attacker)
4. Deoxys-D (Agility stall)
5. Jirachi (Specs + Doom Desire

Honorable mentions: Nasty Plot Mew and HydraRest Lapras are the two big ones. NP Mew I feel like people are using more and I've used it myself recently in quite a few teams. Lapras to me just required too much team support to work despite its potential awesomeness.

Oh yeah, and did I miss when this poll is closing? Or are you (Pocket and ginga) just going to play it by ear and keep it open until the votes really dry up?
 
Please nobody use Scrafty in this. As much as i love it, i would love it to drop to UU and start raping everything.

I like the idea of either Banded Aggron or Specs Jellicent.
 
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