OU Suspect Testing Round 5 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

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Unban Brightpowder/Lax Incense - Silly ban for something that's objectively worse than Leftovers, was extended to GSC constituting a ban on two horrible items which had been allowed for more than ten years, its only abuser got his ass kicked to Uber and the other three ones (Froslass, Gliscor and Cacturne) won't even come close to broken, or at least OU-level in usage. Besides, people want to ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak using Evasion Clause for "consistency" without realizing this would mean a ban on Cacturne in ADV Ubers: if we have to be consistent with Evasion Clause, it means the clause has to be the same in every generation! Seems only fair to me.

Ban Stone Edge - Worst move in the game, one in every five misses and one in every eight CHs, this clearly stimulates luck and thus, uncompetitiveness. We should ban everything that's solely uncompetitive (no really, do you use Stone Edge for inflicting damage? Please niggas), and this is the first step into making Pokémon a true game of chessskill. Also, Tyranitar gets nerfed so it's for the sake of the metagame and further balancing of the "weather war" OU has become.
 
I'm Achilles Steel

Nominations for Uber: Deoxys-e , Excadrill , Thundurus

Nominations for OU: Manaphy , Garchomp , Blaziken

I think that given how much the metagame has changed since they were banned they should be brought back into OU to test whether everyone still finds them "too good" for OU play. I don't want to be the person trying to make up "complex bans" on this issue but aside from everyone else who had also nominated that Manaphy to be retested except no drizzle+Manaphy on the same team, I think the same should hold true for Garchomp and Blaziken not being able to have their respective auto weather inducer (drought for Blaziken and sand for Garchomp) present on the same team as them.
 
Confirming as Ekaj

Nominating Latios

Latios' combination of power, speed, and decent bulk make it a top threat in OU. However, reliably countering Latios, and not just checking it with Pursuit trapping or revenge killing it with a Scarfer, is extremely difficult. In OU, the only really solid counters to Latios are all dealt with using an appropriate move. Standard TTar can be 2HKOed by Spec'd Surf after some residual damage(252 SpAtk Choice Specs Latios Surf vs 255 HP/194 SpDef Tyranitar: 42.57% - 50.5%, Entry hazards damage: 50, After entry hazards: 222 - 254 (54.95% - 62.87%), 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers), Blissey can be 2HKOed by Psyschock, and Jirachi has to watch out for HP Fire, as do Bronzong and Ferrothorn, who can easily be worn down by it unless backed by Rain. Everything else in OU can easily be OHKOed by even non Spec'd or LOed Draco Meteors, thanks to that massive base 130 special attack, or the appropriate coverage move.


Also Nominating Sun and Rain

Weather has completely dominated the meta, as opposed to last gen, where although many teams sported TTar, the weather was mostly an after thought. This gen, with the introduction of Drizzle and Drought to the likes of some otherwise subpar Pokemon, the game has become completely centralized on this style of play, making any conventional team sorely outmatched. This means you are practically forced to run weather if you want to make any headway, or to check opposing weathers and their boosted STABS and, in Sun's case, doubled Speed. This isn't creating a healthy meta, rather just centralizing it around 3 Pokemon, Tyranitar, Politoed, and Ninetales. Sand isn't as inherently broken as Sun and Rain though, as Ground-, Rock-, and Steel- type moves don't get boosted, and no other types have their damage reduced. The matter of Excadrill should be decided once the other 2 weathers are gone, as he is easily indirectly countered by removing the sand with another weather.
 
My 2 cents, even though I didn't even attempt req's.

My nomination for this round is not any one pokemon, because I don't believe any to be overpowered (although thundurus is close). Instead i'd like to focus on the point of OVERCENTRALIZING rather than overpowered. The simple proof is in the fact that in only one testing period, Gastrodon rose from the depths of RU into a solid spot in the big leaugues. 2 months. Why exactly? RAIN. It overcentralizes our metagame. But not just rain, but also SAND. It's unheard of not to carry an excadrill counter. IMO, these two weathers make our metagame a predictable, stale, and boring place to be. You either face A.) Rain team with the same poke's or B.) sand team with the same poke's. It's blan. When teambuiling comes to the point that you're shoving counters in there because they "need to be", it shows that SOMETHING NEEDS TO CHANGE. Some people are going crazy with bans, saying proposterous things that will make their life easier, and their's alone. I think that even those who use Rain and Sand (being about 90% of us) can agree that it overcentralizes the OU teir. Who wants to face the same stupid pokemon on every team? What happened to the good ol' days when you could get creative and still be effective? Now it seems if you don't throw certain pokemon in your team it's an auto-loss. So my proposal is this:

I nominate all auto-weather inducing abilities to be tested. (just so there is no favoritism). But mostly sand and rain.

P.S.- i'm not a biased crybaby that can't figure out how to win weather wars, i've gotten high points with Rain, but while using it is when I realized how stupid weather is.

lets bring creativity back to pokemon and throw out auto weather.
 
confirming as Emeral ( 1483 )

1) I nominate Thundurus, this thing is to powerfull and doesn t have a real counter.
2) I nominate Espeon + BP, it s broken ._.
3) I nominate BP + White Herb.
4) I nominate Volcarona in sun teams.
 
I nominate:

-Deoxys-S because he has too much General-purpose. He can put screen very easily, SR+spikes, he can be a very good late game sweeper because of his very good movepool and speed outspeeding too many Pokémon even with a choice scarf.

- Excadrill for all the reasons people said.

- Baton pass + Espeon because you need very specific Pokémon to handle those kind of team which are anti-strategic.

- Shell smash + baton pass because they are " no brain team " + too hard to handle+ blablabla
 
Jirachi
Broken ass little pixie that makes the game uncompetitive as hell. If you can't OHKO it, it paralyzes you, then Iron Heads you till you die. In short, you have to get lucky to beat it if it can spread paralysis amongst your team

Baton Pass
Even though I love playing Baton Pass, it's pretty broken nowadays, and I just can't see a good reason to keep it in the meta. The only thing that can stop it is Haze/Red Card, and neither of those are very attractive
 
Didn't get reqs but just throwing my opinion out there.

No suspects

At this point in the metagame, it's gotten pretty balanced and nothing is really "broken". Top tier threats like Excadrill and Thundurus can be dealt with by prediction/priority/ whatever you need. It's become pretty balanced at this point and I feel adding more bans will just make the tier smaller and worse.


Also, @ everyone else: stop nomming anything that your team has trouble with -.-
 
Reviving my past nomination to Ban the combination of Sand Veil + Sand Stream. It's good to see I'm not alone this time.

And, in the wake of this nomination, Unban Garchomp. I'm sure few would question that the combination of Sand Veil + Sand Stream is the only reason Garchomp was banned in the first place.

Other than this matter, No Suspects. This may seem contradictory to the above, but I believe it remains to be seen whether or not that is the case.
 
I haven't played OU in a month or two now, but when I last did my ranking was around 1100 solidly. I just want to give my opinion here for bans to better the metagame.

Excadrill: Yes, people have said all of the arguments already for me. Excadrill needs no set up, only sand to be out, and you can't run scarfers safely. Anything fast yet frail has a poor chance with Excadrill outspeeding it to succeed. Being almost forced to run a pokemon to deal with excadrill is bullshit, and I sure as hell refuse to run a gliscor, because my team synergy is completely bullshit with a gliscor in it. If you want to run a team of your own with its own unique synergy, you often will find that you can't, because Excadrill is such a force that you need to have something to stop it. The speed tiers are messed up as well, scarfers are not common from what I've seen, besides something like Rotom.

Thundurus: I originally thought that he wasn't broken, and quite managable. But between prankster twaving half your team (good luck if you were relying on sweeping!), and being able to run a different move to switch between which of his checks he wants to not have as checks, thundurus is not an easy pokemon to stop. His speed wouldnt be an issue if scarfers could play safely, but with Excadrill in the game, scarfers probably won't chance it. Taking a thunder in rain is not anything someone wants, and thundurus can just enough survive hits from full health (took a modest 252 shadow ball from my chandelure and lived one time). If rain and excadrill were to be banned, then I would very much drop my suspect on Thundurus's brokenness in OU.

Auto Weather Abilities: I'd waste my time writing a few paragraphs on my thoughts about how much shit this metagame has turned into because of weather, but there are plenty already in this thread, and despite my hope, I'm very sure weather won't get banned, because it is simply too easy for people to copypaste for easy wins. Weather teams against non weather teams have a significant advantage, and unless you run your own weather (adding to the stirring pot), or are forced to run crap like hail on a random pokemon, the opponents team is set up from the start. People are even saying ridiculous things like "this is the weather meta", and usage stats show that it's so centralizing. Gastrodon, an effing RU, is now in OU, because he happens to be a good counter to rain. Celebi, formerly UU, is now in the top 20 because she is a good counter to rain as well. Tyranitar usage vs Excadrill usage has even shown that Ttar is now being used as an antiweather pokemon instead of just another goddamn sandstorm team. It is restricting. Half of the people in the tier have a weather team, and if I were to guess, I would say up to 75% of all teams have something to do with weather, be it copypasting a mindless strategy or being forced to counter weather. I have seen arguments saying that weather adds variety to the game with it's own teams and archetypes, but this is the most idiotic crap I have heard from any pro weather arguments. Yes, you are true in that it adds more viable strategies, but that doesnt matter worth a damn when it becomes the only viable strategy. I have never seen as much lack of variety than from weather, because no, it is not just another team type like trick room or gravity (those add REAL variety), it is a centralized overpowered force that everyone is starting to run because they realize they have no chance against it or they want an easy win. The bans from past rounds have seemed like holding back. Extremely holding back. Ban manaphy, ban swsw+drizzle, what's next, a ban on thundurus only? This is only showing weakness and unability to put a stop to the real problem. People keep cutting the heads off of the figurative hydra, but that will never kill it. Take away an abuser, stop the strongest ability in it's respective weather (whats next, chlorophyll + drought? ha), but the body of the hydra is still there. Every one of these nerf bans has had weather in common as the central power unit. Just ban the thing at the center, the real problem. Weather needs to gtfo.

On Garchomp: I would definately try to adapt to him if weather was banned and he was brought back (actual chance of both happening; almost nothing), but I'd VERY much prefer that he stays in uber. Garchomp was banned last gen, what changed for him this gen? I don't think that you would want to fight a garchomp at +2 in rain, or at +2 in sun, would you? Random hax was only the icing on his broken cake. He has good speed, amazing coverage and typing, and hits effing hard. Not to mention he has bulk as good as swampert. Yache berry DD or Scarf versions are both deadly. Garchomp is fucking broken even out of sand. Before Chomp was banned this gen, I fought him many times, and there was no difference in his power in or out of sand. I could miss maybe, but he still was at +2 and had amazing coverage and stats. I got sick of him a few days before his ban and was just about to use him on my (non sand) team just because I had fought him and knew that he was overpowered, and I wanted to use him just to get some easy wins. Garchomp needs to stay where he. is.
 
Unban Garchomp- Essentially Garchomp is the worst Uber ever. It does not break the game offensively, it doesn't sweep entire teams alone. It does not break the game defensively, which should just be plain obvious (I personally even tested BulkyChomp back when he was legal, so mediocre). He obviously can't support his team like what made Wobba Uber back in the day.

He doesn't meet a single qualification of Uber. The only reason why he's in Ubers at all is because people bitch about Sand Veil.

Unbanning Brightpowder should follow with this. Unbroken, inferior to leftovers in nearly every situation, no reason to ban it.
 
UltiMario said:
Unban Garchomp- Essentially Garchomp is the worst Uber ever. It does not break the game offensively, it doesn't sweep entire teams alone. It does not break the game defensively, which should just be plain obvious (I personally even tested BulkyChomp back when he was legal, so mediocre). He obviously can't support his team like what made Wobba Uber back in the day.

He doesn't meet a single qualification of Uber. The only reason why he's in Ubers at all is because people bitch about Sand Veil.

Unbanning Brightpowder should follow with this. Unbroken, inferior to leftovers in nearly every situation, no reason to ban it.
Click to expand...


What he said^
 
Excadrill
Most of my reasons have already been stated, but there's one point I'd like to expand on.

Excadrill is the sole reason of why BW is bulky offense and not hyper offense.

Think about it. With so many ridiculously powered threats such as Volcarona, Haxorus, and Thundurus, as well as the fact that power creep has increased by so much, hyper offense should be the dominant playstyle. With the exception of RBY -> GSC, every transition in generations has brought in a faster metagame. Why not in BW? Excadrill. Excadrill wrecks hyper offense and forces you to run one of the weather inducers, all of which are mediocre at best on hyper offense. Alternatively, you can run Conkeldurr or Azumarill, which are, again, somewhat mediocre on hyper offense.

Yes, Excadrill can be countered. Yes, Excadrill can be checked. But despite these counters and checks Excadrill is still such a prohibitive influence on hyper offense AND stall (you can't spinblock Excadrill) that it, more than anything, would be deserving of the titles "overcentralizing" and "unbalanced".

Excadrill has been shaping the metagame since the very beginning -- all of the other Pokemon with influence to this extent have been banned. Why is Excadrill an exception?
 
Okay, I'm back, but it's not to ban half the tier lol. As a matter of fact, I've gone into "help the metagame mode".

I think these nominations will actually aid the metagame, and it won't include half the tier.

I'd like to start by nominating All Weather inducing abilities. Thanks to weather, OU has become increasingly centrallized, and put some threats on steroids like Starmie, Venasaur, and Excadrill, who otherwise would hardly be half as threatning. It has also caused some pokemon to increase by leaps and bounds in usage (see Gastrodon), just to have a counter to weather. This, over everything, will aid the metagame.

With that nomination out of the way, I'd like to go on the my next. Assuming that nomination happens, I'd like to nominate Garchomp for OU, as it would help keep the new metagame stable, checking threats like the Latis, +1Volcarona and Terrakion. It will also be perfectly killable, thanks to losing the Sandstorm evasion boost, a simple Ice Shard will put non Yache varients in their place. Good pokemon like Balloontran, Skarmory, and Bronzong also wall it.

Back to the banning side of things, I think Jirachi should go. It is extremely uncompetitive, using a cheap (and haxy) paralysis hax to mow through everything. The fact that we banned Garchomp over hax but not this thing just doesn't seem fair.

Lastly, I'd like to nominate Multi Scale and Baton Pass for Uber. Multi Scale halves damage if at full health, which its sole user, Dragonite can easily aaccomplish. Thanks to Espeon, Baton Pass chains with the right Pokemon are nearly unstoppable, as PHazing just isn't as good of an option as it used to be. Hopefully this post doesn't come off as Ludicrous like the last one did; thanks for considering.
 
confirming as ballabrown24

nominating jirachi.

as said before, jirachi, is the ultimatum of ridiculous. it can run a multitude of sets that beat one another counters. at this point i would make an eo reference, but even eo's lowly stature cannot describe jirachi's horribleness. it makes an excellent revenge killer with its 100 base speed an huge movepool, and at the same time can run an expert belt set to kill all its "counters".

while i do know that the defensive characteristic of last generation is now gone and not applicable, jirachi fits this term perfectly. it singlehandedly beats strong pokemon such as latios and hydregon, even if hydregon has fire blast at its disposal as jirachi can stall it out using wish + protect. jirachi supports its team so well in shutting down the main special attackers of the metagame and beats the most common pokemon in the game such as politoed and tyranitar with ease.

jonothanrp said it best saying: "If you can't OHKO it, it paralyzes you, then Iron Heads you till you die. In short, you have to get lucky to beat it if it can spread paralysis amongst your team"

jirachi is 100% uncompetitive and should be banned


also unban garchomp, and please take this nomination seriously unlike the noobs posting dumbass shit about banning stone edge
 
posting to say that i nominate deoxys-e now since auto-weather is gonna be on the chopping block. i really think if tar/tales leave the field heavy offense is just going to be more potent with venusaur and exca gone. x2 spe ability mons just wreck the ho playstyle atm, and if these things leave the metagame we're gonna see a lot more dual screen deoxys running around and stirring shit up. with 252 hp investment it's almost impossible to stop deo-s from getting down both screens. it can also run magic coat to stop taunt mons like thundurus. the only easy way to maneuver around this thing is chopletar, and even at that tar can be set-up fodder for both screens if deo-e chooses not to superpower first turn.

also on board with lugia and chomp for ou
 
Already sent my special app.,nominating Shell Pass coz it's fucking broken unless n00bs use it or hax occurs(I'm looking at those who saw the No john's final).Espeon,Gorebyss and Stored power are what make it broken,basically.Gorebyss gets SS and BP,Espeon can't be statused,phazed or taunted and stored power helps Espeon sweep easily.Not much of a big deal coz it's pretty rare but the common Perish Song strategy fails versus BP teams packing Mr. Mime.

SAVE THUNDURUS

EXCADRILL Coz of it's ability,good movepool,sky high attack stat,speed sucks but I already mentioned the ability.The fact that SS is relatively easier to keep up makes it even more threatening;Rain is the only weather that can give SS trouble(sun can do the same with good play but i'm assuming the player is average) but it has more checks than SS.Ferrothorn,Rotom-W,Thundurus,Gastrodon to name a few.

Also nominatingMulti Scale.When people running 'Nite lead,which they usually do it's really hard to figure whether it's a CB set or a DD set.You switch in a ferro to absorb what you think is a banded outrage and your opponent gets a free DD and screws up atleast two of your pokes before going down.You guess it's a DD set and stay in to taunt or attack it and you get a CB outrage to the face.True you can switch in Skarm that can Whirlwind the DD set and set up on the CB set but Fire punch is gonna hurt.Multi Scale is also a bitch late game where it gifts Nite a chance to set up on weakened poke who would've otherwise KO'ed it.What am trying to say is Nite is versatile and strong but it's quadruple ice weakness and rock weakness prevented it from becoming a real threat in past metas.However Multi Scale helps it by pass that.Couple that with Lum berry and you've got a perfect chance to set up every time to switch in.As a bonus if you scare you opponent away when setting up it's gonna take two turns to kill you even with an ice or dragon attack unless it's STAB and banded/specs'ed.Nite even has decent defensive stats and hp to make it harder to beat with Multi Scale.
 
Suspects:
Moves/Abilities: Auto-weather Inducing Abilities, Baton Pass
Pokemon: Thundurus, Excadrill, Deoxys-S, Dragonite, Volcarona

Since this is possibly the last suspect testing round to be voted on by the masses, we thought it would be best to get opinions on everything (even if borderline and even if it's been voted on several times before). One last barometer of suspect voter opinion is a good thing.

Suspect voters: (I would like to note that we only accepted one special application. The round was the 2 week period that we designated. We didn't care if you got 1500 in August and then didn't play again, that's not why we didn't reset the ladder)

wilson46
Heist
yee
Super Mario Bro
Alice
KnightoftheWind
Aqualouis
.CarloO~
Freze
Cometk
WildFireXIII
symphonyx64
Metric
SJCrew
Pocket
TEzeon
taxi driver
PokemonKing4Life
SGV
shofu
bro fist
Ziah
ironBullet93
Taylor
ShinyAzelf
Razza
Rurushu
badabing
Blue Star
AfroThunderRule
Blue_Bur
¬Chase™
ShakeItUp
Grimm70
Windsong
xtrashine
M Dragon
blarajan
toshimelonhead
Pearl.
PK Gaming
DC.
Sir Azelf
Thatsjustpeachy
Agammemnon
Mynism
McMeghan
Cristal
Akola
DarkLoic
ala
Ojama
Scimjara
ENZ0
Delta 2777
Kinglypuff
Eternal
Cicada
Rewer
Squirrel
MetaGross56
Krack
ToF
Taker
Nails
tehy
DOOM99
MCRandom
Blightbringer
Noodlez
Stunt
Forblaze
MarceloDK
Perroflauta
Giga Punch
Derk
luxia emeral
7014gree
BIHI

We have to get the voting thread set up where people who don't have PR access will be able to vote, so that may take a bit. Until then I'd urge the suspect voters to read arguments for or against banning these suspects.

Also we're on the fence about whether or not to group weather-inducing abilities or separate them. Before deciding, we'd like to see what public opinion is on that too, so feel free to make posts about that in the suspect thread also.
 
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