Project OU Underdog Project (Week 17: Mega Abomasnow)

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SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Week 6:

So Mega Latios may be one of the most disliked pokemon in OU. It only has a few advantages over the LO Latios set and it also has competition from Mega Latias. But is all the hate on Mega Latios justified? Is Mega Latios really that bad? (spoiler: it is) What sets make Mega Latios worth it over LO Latios and Mega Latias and on what teams does Mega Latios fit are some questions you can use for the discussion. Please don't make this too big of a shitstorm.

For next week we go a little more gimmicky:
 
Mega-Latios is hard to use effectively. Latias' better natural bulk, as well as a higher degree of increased bulk when it Mega-Evolves makes M-Latias a great mixed wall. Yes: M-Latios gets some increase in bulk, but it's not really significant enough. The main issue for Mega-Latios is that it's outclassed in the role it's supposed to perform. It has a nice support movepool, but Mega-Latias does sets with Thunder Wave better, and the higher overall bulk makes defensive sets much more viable on it (such as the popular Bolt-Beam M-Lati set right now, which is actually quite good. M-Latios can't really do anything similar). Memento's a neat option to allow set-up opportunities for other team members, but using that on your Mega is pretty counter-intuitive, and there are better choices. Same with Tailwind: I don't need to run M-Latios to have Tailwind support. Latios' movepool is really wide, but it's always been kind of limited to what it can use (between Draco, Psyshock, Roost, Defog, and another attacking move, which is usually HP Fire, EQ, or even Surf based on some recent SPL matches).

M-Latios does get increased attacking stats, but the issue is that Life Orb Latios outdamages M-Latios on both ends of the spectrum anyway:

252 Atk Mega Latios Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 318-374 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Latios Outrage vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 320-377 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 522-614 (124.2 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 580-686 (138 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

M-Latios doesn't have any way to differentiate itself as a better Dragon Dancer in this metagame. Zard-X has Tough Claws, as well as tremendous dual-STABs. Dragonite is stronger, can afford to run Adamant thanks to priority, and has Multiscale for more set-up opportunities, provided hazards are kept off the field. It also doesn't use a Mega-slot. The lack of power M-Latios has over its base form also hurts. If it had a better speed tier (say, 120 or 125), it could probably be justified to use, but the fact that M-Latios has neither a speed nor power advantage over its base form sucks (and Modest isn't an option in this metagame).

The bulk increase isn't enough, the power increase isn't enough, and the lack of a speed increase really hurts M-Latios' viability (honestly, the Speed might be the biggest thing). If it had slightly more power, a better Speed tier, or even a better ability (like if it had Analytic, such as in the Theorymon thread), it could probably find a niche. But the way it is, it's hard to think of any set it can really run in this metagame that isn't either done better by its twin Mega, its base form, or another Pokemon in general.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I never got the idea behind DD MLatios to begin with. It just seemed like a way to find a niche for it when people considered it wasn't that great.
However the fact that you don't have to struggle with LO recoil and still hit decently hard, especially on the physical side, is a pretty nice thing it has over regular Latios. Against pokemon such as Keldeo the LO recoil can become really nasty in situations where you are forced to attack. Especially with burns, sand damage etc. combined. Mega Latios doesn't really suffer from this issue because it doesn't have LO recoil, as well as a bit more SpD.
I don't really think Mega Latios can run anything special that regular Latios or Mega Latias won't do better most of the time, but I think a slightly more physical set might work. A mixed set with more attack investment can tackle some surprise some special bulky pokemon such as Chansey, Tyranitar and Jirachi. For example Jirachi is 2hko'd by Earthquake with attack investment or after 10% prior damage + special attack investment. Coverage would be something like: EQ / Special STAB / Outrage or Roost / Roost or coverage
Unfortunately didn't have any time to test it out but the fact that common switchins like Tyranitar, Jirachi, SpD Klefki and AV Metagross really don't take an invested Earthquake opens up some possibilities.
 

Martin

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Dd mlati is garb its niche is basically as Latios with better longevity. The lack of LO recoil alongside its similar phys power means that if an EQ+Roost variant is being used on a megaless team then it is worth at least considering. The fact that its not reliant on LO ad has better bulk is, in itself, a pretty nice perk for it, and sometimes mlatias doesn't quite fit the offensive requirements for your team.

Mlati is in general very hard to fit on a team, which is part of why its so bad. Ive only got one successful mlatios team, which says a lot about its viability tbh.

Edit: Sketchup's set sounds dope tho i wanna try it
 
I'd like to compare Mega Latios to Mega Tyranitar because they share a similar fate: both are strong, but they are not worthy of a slot most of the time because their regular forms are just good enough leaving open the Mega slot. Despite this, I still think that Mega Latios in C-/D rank is too harsh because the fact it is the fastest DD users even uninvested is not that niche.

Dragon Dance Mega Latios
(offensive setupper & bulky setupper)
Latios @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 8 Def / 248 Spe or even 228 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Spe (28 Spe to outspeed Jolly Bisharp before DD)
Adamant Nature
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake/Roost


General idea: the main advantage that Mega Latios has over his normal form is its extra bulk on both sides of the spectrum and better longevity (due to the loss of Life Orb), so it would stand to reason that a Calm Mind set with Roost would be the best way to take advantage of this extra staying power. Interesting enough, Mega Latios' Atk is higher than regular Latios' one so makes sense to use it as a physical attacker because it receives 40 extra base stats in that outdamaging the Life Orb boost of its regular form.
In OU we have many Dragon Dancers (i.e. Mega Charizard-X, Mega Altaria, Tyranitar) but none of them is that fast before a boost.

Some calcs:
252+ Atk Mega Latios Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 392-464 (131.9 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Latios Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 264-312 (88.8 - 105%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Latios Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 240-284 (88.5 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Latios Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Dragon Dance is mandatory because it grants the moveset's viability, then there are the dual physical STABs with the endless choice between Dragon Claw and Outrage. The 4° slot is flexible: Roost for longevity or Earthquake for useful coverage and Defog is also an option if you don't have a defogger. I really like Earthquake to deal with Bisharp and Tyranitar on the switch but this is only my personal opinion.

vs Mega Charizard-X, the most effective Dragon Dancer in the meta. Other DDancer are too slow: (Mega) Tyranitar, Tyrantrum and Mega Altaria.
Pros:
  • Better Spe
  • Better HP and SpD
  • Immunity to Ground attacks (bar Mold Breaker ones), Spikes and Toxic Spikes
  • Not weak to SR pre and post Mega evolution
Cons:
  • Less Atk due to Tough Claws
  • Less Def
  • Six weaknesses instead of four including a Pursuit & a Sucker Punch weakness

EVs spread and nature: customizable, but I'm trying to find the best Spe benchmark before the boost provided by Dragon Dance considering that Latios has a high base Spe. Many DDancers runs Adamant with no EVs Spe and -maybe- even Latios can do this due to the switch-outs it provides ===> Jolly nature seems a waste of power considering that Latios forces many switch-outs simply entering in the battlefield and a DD makes up for the lack of EVs in Spe.

One of the biggest problems I see is the existence of Bisharp with that Sucker Punch OHKOing Mega Latios even in its Mega form with 228 HP EVs (56.3% chance to OHKO). This thing may happen even with Pursuit on the switch (56.3% chance to OHKO) but, at least, Knock Off 2HKOes bar crits.
 
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Unfortunately, as many have mentioned, Mega Latios is one of the worst Pokemon in OU. It's D rank for a good reason, as there are many other Pokemon that do its job better, such as Mega Charizard X, Life Orb Latios, and Mega Latias. It barely carves itself a niche in OU, and it's just a waste of a Mega Slot. Its only niche is the fasted unboosted Dragon Dance user in the OU metagame, meaning it can lure in things like Megazard X. It also has slightly better bulk, along with not being as crippled by Knock Off. Speaking of held items, it's also not worn down by Life Orb. Here's a sample set.


Some shit (Latios-Mega) (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw / Outrage
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake

If you'd like style points, as well as to surprise Mega Charizard X, then this is the set for you. Dragon Dance is the primary move of the set, boosted Mega Latios's Attack and Speed to great levels. Dragon Claw is a decently powerful STAB that doesn't lock you in, meaning you won't be complete Fairy bait. However, if you desire the sheer nuking power of Outrage, then you can use that. Zen Headbutt is a secondary STAB that hits Keldeo, Conkeldurr, and Mega Venusaur. As for the last slot, Earthquake hits the likes of Heatran, Bisharp, and Jirachi for good damage. Roost can be used over Zen Headbutt for longetivity, but you lose the ability to hit the after-mentioned threats. Hidden Power Fire can also be used over Earthquake, along with a Naughty nature, to hit Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory, but a DD boosted Earthquake is usually the better option. The EVs and Nature let Mega Latios hit as hard as possible, and outspeeds full speed Adamant Mega Charizard X, among others. However, if you want to outspeed Jolly Megazard X, then a Jolly nature is preferred.

However, as we can all agree, you're better off just using Life Orb Latios or Mega Charizard X.
 
I seriously don't understand this fixation with DD Mega Latios, it's literally one of the worst sets you could run on it. You still hit like a wet noodle and while the speed is nice, you get completely trashed by most forms of priority so there's not really a reason to run this over, say, Zard X or Mega Altaria. A good rule of thumb is that Mega Latios can really only run sets that regular Latios could use as well. The fact that DD LO Latios (who hits actually hits harder and can be run alongside a Mega wallbreaker like Gardevoir) isn't a thing should say volumes about how effective DD Mega Latios is. Both mons are special attackers first, and while you can get away with physical moves for luring purposes neither of them are going to be decent Dragon Dancers any time soon. Also stop running Adamant Latios if you're going to be doing this. Latios has exactly one thing over Zard X which is its Speed, but Jolly Zard outruns Adamant Lati anyways so you're basically running a worse DD user for no reason.

Honestly the best usage you could get out of Mega Latios is CM Roost. This is probably the set that makes the most out of the additional bulk and lack of recoil that Life Orb deals, which can allow it to boost up quickly and stay healthy more easily against defensive mons. There's a little bit of lost power with the change, but it's not too huge.


Latios-Mega (M) @ Latiosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock

Honestly Mega Latios isn't actually bad, it just doesn't justify its place on a serious team. Other Megas bring whole new levels of power to their teams, whereas Mega Latios just brings more Latios.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Week 7:

Cacturne has a few unique tools that make it worth a shot in OU. Water Absorb gives Cacturne a total of 2 immunities and 5 resistances which let it check pokemon such as Slowbro, Alakazam and Thundurus (despite terrible bulk). Cacturne is a big threat to balanced teams with useful moves such as Swords Dance and Spikes, but on the other hand it has competition from other offensive dark and a weakness to almost every form of priority, which give it a difficult time against offensive teams.
What sets can Cacturne run in OU? On what teams does Cacturne fit and what are good teammates are some things you can discuss.

Next week:
 
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Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Sucker Punch
- Destiny Bond / Counter
- Spiky Shield / Poison Jab

Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild / Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower / Poison Jab / Focus Blast

Sadly, there aren't any reasons to run Swords Dance or Nasty Plot sets in OU. Setup opportunities are extremely hard to find, and Cacturne is too slow to sweep.
 

Martin

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Cacturne is fun af to use. This is my personal favorite set on it:

Cacturne @ Focus Sash
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Seed Bomb
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

I'm not keen on Spiky Shield or Counter at all on this thing as imo they don't complement its optimal role. I guess you could use Destiny Bond too, but it isn't really capable of getting it off against a lot of stuff due to its abysmal speed. At least SDing turn 1 can be handy v.s. teams which aren't phased much by Spikes due to a large number of Levitate users/Flying-type Pokémon, as it gives Cacturne the potential to eliminate 2 Pokémon and is useful v.s. stuff like Hippo leads. It also means that its not just limited to leading and dying, as there are certain matchups that Cacturne can be really handy in due to Water Absorb and Sucker Punch/typing.

All in all it is far from stellar (ultra team specific) but still super fun to mess around with.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I don't really agree with the '+2 Cacturne rips through offense' part. Offense always has good Bisharp checks and most of these checks also affect SD Cacturne. Obviously a nice thing about Cacturne is the fact that it can beat some Bisharp switchins due to the fact that it has good coverage in Seed Bomb and Superpower to damage Sucker Punch checks such as Keldeo, Heatran and Mega Gyara but I still don't see it beating offense easily. Keldeo is still an excellent Cacturne check because of a resistance to Sucker Punch and offense carries many more Cacturne checks such as Talonflame, MZor, Breloom and Lando-T. It is weak to almost every form of priority and grass/dark coverage is still resisted by quite a few pokemon like Bisharp and Klefki. The offensive teams that lose to +2 Cacturne probably lose to +2 Bisharp too. Add the fact that it finds way less setup opportuities because it lacks the typing Bisharp has, which gives it opportunities to setup against pokemon such as Jirachi, Lati@s and Tyranitar. In my opinion Spikes is the most effective set because it threatens many offensive Defoggers and Spinners with Sucker Punch
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
I don't really agree with the '+2 Cacturne rips through offense' part. Offense always has good Bisharp checks and most of these checks also affect SD Cacturne. Obviously a nice thing about Cacturne is the fact that it can beat some Bisharp switchins due to the fact that it has good coverage in Seed Bomb and Superpower to damage Sucker Punch checks such as Keldeo, Heatran and Mega Gyara but I still don't see it beating offense easily. Keldeo is still an excellent Cacturne check because of a resistance to Sucker Punch and offense carries many more Cacturne checks such as Talonflame, MZor, Breloom and Lando-T. It is weak to almost every form of priority and grass/dark coverage is still resisted by quite a few pokemon like Bisharp and Klefki. The offensive teams that lose to +2 Cacturne probably lose to +2 Bisharp too. Add the fact that it finds way less setup opportuities because it lacks the typing Bisharp has, which gives it opportunities to setup against pokemon such as Jirachi, Lati@s and Tyranitar. In my opinion Spikes is the most effective set because it threatens many offensive Defoggers and Spinners with Sucker Punch
SD Bisharp is a big threat to offense, no? That's why people run Bisharp checks. Similarly, SD Cacturne is a big threat to offense (since it hits harder than standard SD Bisharp), but similarly, you have to support it by removing its checks if you want it to sweep. Additionally, I don't think SD Cacturne's primary viability is as a stand-alone sweeper. Instead, it's primarily viability is as a method of supporting another sweeper that has trouble with bulky Water and Ground types, since Cacturne sets up easily on them. For example, I have had a good amount of success building with the offensive core of SD Cacturne and Adamant SD Lucario with Iron Tail. With Iron Tail/CC/ESpeed Lucario can't break through Slowbro, Hippowdon, or Suicune very easily, and these are all Pokemon that Cacturne basically sets up on with impunity.
SD/Spikes/Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch is probably a viable set, but dropping Superpower really locks Cacturne into the lead role since it gets walled by so much stuff. With Superpower you pose a legit threat to balanced and defensive teams:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 458-541 (130.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 233-274 (67.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 263-309 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 650-767 (168.8 - 199.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Additionally, I don't think Focus Sash makes for a viable Spikes lead at all. You're 100% shut down by any priority, you're facing massive competition from stuff like Diggersby (how does Sash Cacturne have anything over Diggers, really?), suicide Skarm/Ferro, Klefki and Scolipede, and you're losing out on so much power making it much harder to threaten offense or break through stall:
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 207-243 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 159-187 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 273-321 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 210-247 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 413-486 (107.5 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 318-374 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 478-564 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 368-434 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I wouldn't completely shut out the possible viability of Adamant LO SD/Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch/Spikes just because Spikes are so good, but Sash seems like a complete non-starter to me.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
SD Bisharp is a big threat to offense, no? That's why people run Bisharp checks. Similarly, SD Cacturne is a big threat to offense (since it hits harder than standard SD Bisharp), but similarly, you have to support it by removing its checks if you want it to sweep. Additionally, I don't think SD Cacturne's primary viability is as a stand-alone sweeper. Instead, it's primarily viability is as a method of supporting another sweeper that has trouble with bulky Water and Ground types, since Cacturne sets up easily on them. For example, I have had a good amount of success building with the offensive core of SD Cacturne and Adamant SD Lucario with Iron Tail. With Iron Tail/CC/ESpeed Lucario can't break through Slowbro, Hippowdon, or Suicune very easily, and these are all Pokemon that Cacturne basically sets up on with impunity.
SD/Spikes/Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch is probably a viable set, but dropping Superpower really locks Cacturne into the lead role since it gets walled by so much stuff. With Superpower you pose a legit threat to balanced and defensive teams:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 458-541 (130.1 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 233-274 (67.9 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 263-309 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 650-767 (168.8 - 199.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Additionally, I don't think Focus Sash makes for a viable Spikes lead at all. You're 100% shut down by any priority, you're facing massive competition from stuff like Diggersby (how does Sash Cacturne have anything over Diggers, really?), suicide Skarm/Ferro, Klefki and Scolipede, and you're losing out on so much power making it much harder to threaten offense or break through stall:
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 207-243 (69.2 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 159-187 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 273-321 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 210-247 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 413-486 (107.5 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 318-374 (82.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 478-564 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 368-434 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

I wouldn't completely shut out the possible viability of Adamant LO SD/Seed Bomb/Sucker Punch/Spikes just because Spikes are so good, but Sash seems like a complete non-starter to me.
The problem with running items other than sash on leadturne is that it is just so brutally slow without having all that much bulk. This means that by not running sash you are risking being unable to lay any hazards in a large number of scenarios, which is kinda counterproductive when the entire aim of the set is to, y'know, lay hazards. Add to this that Lando-T is stupidly common as a lead and literally oupaces and U-turns for free on you, meaning that sacrificing sadh means losing to one of the best and most common leads in the game. First and foremost, Spikes+SD Cacturne is a lead. This means that being able to consistently lay hazards is important for it, and in order to do this a sash is necessary. Regardless of if its sash or LO, it is still ultra susceptible to priority. That is a fact that can't be refuted, and therefore the buffer that sash provides against it and faster attacks is a huge boon. The fact is all leads are gonna face problems with prio moves, and I don't think that Diggs is all that good a comparison considering that it beats an different set of stuff in a sash lead role (off of the top of my head it takes on steels in exchange for struggling vs. hippo and waters)
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I love how the first 7 weeks had 5 mons weak to Ice. Let's make that 6 out of 8 with Zygarde

Week 8:

Zygarde has enormous competition from many dragons and the most prominent one is without a doubt Garchomp. Having lower offensive stats and a lack in Dragon Claw, Stealth Rock and Swords Dance really hurts for Zygarde but it can make use of a few moves other dragon types lack, such as Coil, Dragon Dance, Extremespeed and Iron Tail. And even though its movepool isn't the biggest, it still contains many other offensive moves from both sides of the spectrum. What is the best way to use Zygarde and to distinguish it from other dragon type pokemon? Please post sets and replays if you have some!

Next week:
 
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Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
People always compare Zygarde to Garchomp, but I don't think its all that good a comparison as the only similarity I can see is their typing. I understand how it originated, but they fill completely different roles on teams due to their speed tiers, stat spreads and movepools. Garchomp is a contact punisher, an SD wallbreaker or a lead wheras Zygarde functions as a wincon with Coil or a sweeper with DD while having a good matchup v.s. Offense in general due to ESpeed and its good bulk. If anything, its more comparable to Dragonite, which can do DD cleaning more consistently due to both its access to Multiscale and its higher offensive stats (although Coil is able to set itself apart for its ability to act as a wincon on fatter teams due to it being literally a better Bulk Up).

Iron Tail doesn't really set it apart considering that all of Zygarde, Garchomp, Dragonite and Salamence have access to it, Hydreigon having access to Flash Cannon and even Lati@s having Steel Wing (although if you're using Steel Wing on Lati@s you probably have other issues to deal with). E-speed isn't exactly unique to it 'cause DNite is also able to fill the niche of bulky DD user with a move to beat out priority, and DD is something that Dragonite, Mence and Latios have access to (although once again Latios is mediocre with it).

It is kinda hard to justify using it a lot of the time over DNite as a DD user, as the electric immunity doesn't mean that much considering that DNite is neutral anyway and that Zygarde is 4x weak to HP Ice, whereas Multiscale is a huge boon for setting up with and it is more powerful. Its key advantage over DNite is the ability to beat certain 'mons after a DD with the extra speed it has (MBeedrill and up) and the ability to trump scarf Kyu-B at +1. The loss of D-Claw means its much more reliant on having fairies removed to reliably clean, making stuff like M-Venusaur, Amoonguss and Magnezone vitally important to its success. Same goes for steels, although Magnezone can cover that with ease.

Parashuffler also faces competition from Dragonite, who has access to Roost at the cost of the ability to paralyze Lando-T, which Zygarde lures and paras with ease. This is much more tenuous though, as Para-shuffler D-Nite is pretty mediocre in general.

Finally for its biggest claim to fame, Coil. Coil+EQ+Iron Tail+E-Speed is potent. Its capable of using a lot of physical attackers for fodder, and its ability to have a better matchup v.s. fairies than the DD set (which is too strapped for moveslots to carry Iron Tail - it is one of the only cases of legitimate 4MSS on a Pokémon (iirc Lucario is the only viable Pokemon that it shares this honour with, although there's probably one more I'm forgetting) due to losing either one of its STABs or E-Speed making it almost impossible for it to consistently pull its weight) is a big boon too. However, this also has drawbacks, such as it being kinda strapped itself in that it has to choose between Iron Tail+ESpeed and Rest+Sleep Talk (although this is determined by the needs of the team due to one being suited to balance and the other being suited to semistall). However, it faces no competition here due to it being surprisingly hard to find dragon with Bulk Up - which is a nice perk.

Overall, Zygarde is cool. It is pretty flawed, but if you are willing to use it then it should pull its weight.
 
I dont think that anyone who has actually used Zygarde would compare it to Garchomp. We all know what Chompers does; Zygarde's claim to fame (at least imo) is a Sub / Coil set. I remember using an ABR team like two months back with a Specs Keldeo / Mega Zard Y / Zygarde core and it was a pretty fun team. Zygarde acts as a bulky win con that can set up and sweep vs shit it really shouldnt be able to, like Ferrothorn and Skarmory, thanks to a fastish Dragon Tail and Godlike defense after a Coil. Its absolutely hilarious to Sub, Coil, and then Dragon Tail the opponent's team into oblivion while the opponent tries to actually touch Zygarde, and I think said team had a SpDef Skarm with spikes, making the process even easier. You could even throw up a sub midgame, and safely attack whatever offensive check they had, weakening it for other teammates.

Id imagine Zygarde would do even better nowadays, with the prevalence of sand; it can sub/set up on both setters, Excadrill, Amoongus, and Talonflame and any steels bar Klefki. The rise of offensive Lando-T is a bit of a downside; Zygarde's Subs get broken at +0 and it cant do much to Lando with D Tail.

Cool mon overall if really niche; great mon to use if you want something fun and good.
 
Zygarde's pros and cons: Yea, echoing gamer boy, Zygarde is really cool but flawed. Not a stellar attack (base 100 isn't bad but it isn't great), decent-but-not-great speed (base 95), average special attack (base 81), are all not great signs, and Zygarde's ability is completely useless in OU (and Ubers). However, not everything is bad for this Dragon/Ground legend: it's got FAT bulk (bulkier than Mega Garchomp, which is very bulky, and Hippo), no real awful stat, the much-loved EdgeQuake combo, and strong (albeit nonSTAB) priority in the form of Extreme Speed. The real killer is how shallow Zygarde's movepool is: no fire coverage other than HP is a killer, especially since you are working with basically the same special attack as normal Tankchomp, so losing the ability to nail Ferro or Skarm (especially the latter, which resists Espeed/Edgequake/Dragon Tail/Claw/Outrage) is annoying on sets other than SubCoil (and even then giving Ferro free rocks/spikes is never fun).

On Zygarde's Movepool: Pretty much the only viable move Zygarde has that isn't used often is Glare. Paralyzing any non-electric type including popular/good mons like Landorus-T, Hippowdown (although you really want to Toxic this guy), Garchomp, Gliscor, is supremely useful given that several of the prior mons can be dangerous sweepers. But, Zygarde can't really utilize Glare on anything other than a bulky ParaShuffler set simply because there's just not enough slots.

On Coil sets and Iron Tail versus Stone Edge: Coil sets are awesome, since they let you set up on things like Mega Venusaur, Rotom-Wash (with some luck), Hippo/Skarm, Ferro, and so on, and with minimal speed investment you can outspeed and outphaze them with Dragon Tail. Good late-game win con, but still susceptible to strong physical attackers before you set up, and strong HP Ice's (Manectric, Raikou, etc.). Also, is hard walled by most fairies since you run EQ/Dtail on defensive Coil sets, and offensive Coil sets must choose between Iron Tail (which can work against fairies) or Stone Edge (which gives you much more coverage on average).

The debate between Iron Tail and Stone Edge is somewhat personal preference, but I feel that for most teams, Stone Edge>Iron Tail because while Iron Tail does hit fairies, you really don't want to stay in against any fairy other than an un-setup Clefable, and you'll still take over 50% in damage. Iron Tail is also inaccurate, and you lose coverage on important things like Charizard Y, Volcarona, Talonflame, and most other flying types which you normally check or counter really well.

On DD sets, and good EV benchmarks for them: As for DD sets, I think going for a mix of bulk and attack/speed is necessary, and it depends on the team in question. For speedier teams, you generally can get away with an Adamant Nature Zygarde with 240 Speed EVs, since that outspeeds your standard Mild Nature Kyurem with 236 Speed EVs by 1 point, and your standard Scarf Kyurem-B by a bit when Zygarde is at +1. In addition, Adamant with 240 Speed lets you outspeed Mega Manectric and Mega Lopunny after a DD, which is nice since even with modest Attack investment you can 2HKO with EQ or kill with EQ+Extremespeed.

Alternatively, Jolly Zygarde with 164 Speed EVs outruns Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl at +1, but the latter isn't very common and the former can't OHKO you even with HP Ice, letting you win the 1v1 with EQ+Espeed.

IMO, one of the key things to do when EVing Zygarde is try and make use of that amazing bulk. 108/121/95 is one of the bulkiest mons in OU, and Dragon/Ground is a solid defensive typing (while not amazing and having key weaknesses in Ice/Dragon/Fairy).

Here's the DD Zygarde set I use.



Zygarde @ Life Orb
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 120 HP / 148 Atk / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake

As for the EV spread, it's a bit different than the normal one. 240 Speed for the reasons mentioned earlier, and 120 HP gives you the bulk you need to set up on a lot of things and check/counter threats that an uninvested Zygarde simply can't. Even though your attack has a piddly 148 (300 attack with the EV investment) EVs invested, with the Life Orb and a DD, you start hitting hard enough, especially since you have +2 priority in the form of Extreme Speed.

With this spread, you can do things like set up on Choice Scarf Keldeo locked into Secret Sword if needed (a little over 60% of the time), 1v1 Charizard Y in the Sun even with rocks on your side, eat an Adamant Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw from full and live 100% of the time and OHKO back with EQ (this has a 50% shot to kill you due to recoil, but that's still impressive), eat an Adamant Mega Medicham High Jump Kick from full and live 100% of the time (EQ does minimum 76% back, and Extreme Speed 41% minimum, so you can revenge kill with just a bit of chip damage and be KO'd with recoil, or have something wear down Mega Medicham and then use Espeed to finish it off).

If you want to avoid the nasty recoil and stay in longer, swap out Life Orb for Leftovers. However, the power drop is very noticeable, and this Zygarde set is meant to sweep once an enemy team is a bit weakened and has things like Rotom-W out of the way. Alternatively, you can run Lum Berry and use that to set up on things like Mega Sableye and Suicune (Scald is a 5HKO and at +2 you cleanly 2HKO Suicune).

The set's bulk lets it set up on common threats/checks like AV Tornadus, Offensive and Defensive Mega Venusaur (you'll ideally want Offensive to be weakened though), ScarfTar/MegaTar/SupportTar/BandTar not locked into Crunch, and various other mons. Unlike Dragonite, Zygarde resists SR, which lets it have a few more setup chances against certain mons (Tyranitar is one of the biggest), and you're bulkier by a noticeable amount.
 
Oh man, this thing. I really cannot say anything that hasn't already been said about this thing, but I'll put in my two cents.

At first, Zygarde looks pretty mediocre. Base 100 Attack and base 95 Speed don't look all that appealing. Its ability is also useless, making it look like you should just use Garchomp. However, this thing has a few tricks up its sleeve. It has a meaty base 121 defense, with a pretty good base 95 special defense. It also carves itself a niche with Coil, being the only good user of it (no, Serperior doesn't count). It's also blessed with Extreme Speed, granting it a powerful priority move. Overall, while Zygarde may not be the best Dragon, it's still worth looking in to with some unique tools.
 
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Oh man, this thing. I really cannot say anything that hasn't already been said about this thing, but I'll put in my two cents.

At first, Zygarde looks pretty mediocre. Base 100 Attack and base 95 Speed don't look all that appealing. Its ability is also useless, making it look like you should just use Garchomp. However, this thing has a few tricks up its sleeve. It has a meaty base 121 defense, with a pretty good base 95 special defense. It also carves itself a niche with Coil, being the only good user of it (no, Serperior doesn't count). It's also blessed with Extreme Speed, granting it a powerful priority move. The rise of sand also helps this thing, as its Special is boosted in sand, Overall, while Zygarde may not be the best Dragon, it's still worth looking in to with some unique tools.
Quick note, Zygarde doesn't get any SpDef boost in sand since only Rock types get the boost.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
Zygarde isn't really a hot topic so we move on to the next discussion point
Week 9:

Emboar doesn't have the best reputation in OU. It is often seen as a worse Infernape, because it has worse coverage and less speed than it. However, slightly more bulk and much more damage output give Emboar an opportunity to shine. Especially on teams where Emboar can utilise or forgot about its speed, such as Trick Room and Speed Boost + Baton Pass, you will often see Emboar shine above other fire and fighting types. On what other teams does Emboar fit well? What sets should we use on those teams? If you have any teams, sets, cores, replays or whatever may encourage this discussion please share them!

Discussion for next week:
 
Ah, this little piggy. Yet another mon who hits like a freaking Mack truck, but has speed and bulk issues that hold it back. Obviously it is heavily worn down, as 2-3 of its moves are recoil-based and you have the option of either locking in or dealing with Life Orb recoil on top of it.

So this is the set on its analysis, which remains its main set:

Emboar @ Life Orb/Choice Band
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Sucker Punch/Head Smash

Fairly standard stuff here: STABs, anti-Water coverage, and either priority (more popular in today's offensive meta) or a means of hitting stuff like Altaria that doesn't give a crap about the other three moves.

Against the tier's bulkier walls, it can do some fairly neat stuff:
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Mega Sableye: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%)
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 242-285 (68.7 - 80.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 196-231 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 247-291 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
But, of course, these are stallmons, and this is an offensive meta. Nonetheless, with the right support, Emboar can certainly shine.

As for teammates, Rotom-Wash has excellent defensive synergy as well as a slow Volt Switch; Kyurem-Black can smash Water-, Flying-, and Ground-types in Emboar's way while the pig handles Fighting-, Rock-, and Steel-types for it.
 

Martin

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So how long do we have to wait for Stunfisk and Xatu the gods?

I'm not all that keen on Emboar personally. Its kinda hard to justify in an offensively-inclined meta and instead thrives in more defensive ones due to its ability to overwhelm slow, bulky teams with Reckless. I've used a mixed E-Belt and CB set to decent success but honestly I think that LO is really, really mediocre on it because results in it literally impaling itself every time it attacks.

Also I cba with jolly as I'd rather net as many KOs as possible than outpace... uh... what ever runs +spe natures that Emboar will realisticaly both outpace and stay in against again? Like, the only one I can think of is jolly bandtar, but realistically speaking who ever actually runs jolly on bandtar? Scizor maybe, but then again ada>>>>>jolly on scizor - especially the LO variants which it can actually speed tie with. Also what does Scizor actually do to emboar lol
 
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