Other OverUsed General Discussion

[Photofluid]

How convenient of you to bring this up. If you build a team without Rotom-W/H, Tyranitar, or Heatran, then a pokemon called Talonflame will fuck your shit up. And even then, you have your ways of getting by all of these pokemon. Steel Wing or U-turn for T-tar, Toxic for the Rotom formes, and Heatran needs to carry AncientPower (lol) or Stone Edge (LOLOLOL) to do anything to Talonflame. For a pokemon with a 4 times weakness to Stealth Rock, you would think you wouldn't have to put too much more thought into Talonflame once you have a SR setter on your team. However this is not true and there are 2 big reasons why Talonflame has been able to be so effective this generation so far.

Gale Wings is the signature ability that allows Talonflame to have its Flying type moves to be used with a +1 priority. On paper this seems kinda useless thanks in part to Talonflame's blazing 126 base speed. However, this means that it now has the strongest priority move in the entire game. Also, other priority users, namely Azumarrill and Crawdaunt, are not going to be able to revenge kill Talonflame due to Gale Wings. This also means that EVERY CHOICE SCARF USER will not be able to revenge Talonflame. You might say that this is the case with every priority user, but like I said earlier, Talonflame owns the most powerful priority move legally possible so its much more difficult to live a priority STAB Brave Bird than something previously more common like a Scizor Bullet Punch or a Breloom Mach Punch. Gale Wings also gives priority to Roost, which gives it an electric neutrality for that turn. This means if Rotom-W wants to safely kill Talonflame with Volt Switch, it will not be able to do that now thanks to Roost. It could use Hydro Pump, but that 80% accuracy can be shaky at times. This does make Talonflame susceptible to ground-type moves, but that would be a very risky play to make since it would most likely give Talonflame two more free hits on whatever it is facing and possibly 3HKO'ing it.

Defog, through the support of its teammates, is the other factor that has helped Talonflame become such a nuisance to face. Due to Talonflame's major SR weakness, it will need a pokemon to prevent Stealth Rocks from being set up. This can either be done through the classic means of Rapid Spinning, a new technique introduced last generation called having a pokemon with the ability Magic Bounce, or by the brand new means of getting hazards of the field with the move Defog. Due to its buff, Defog has been quite popular on some pokemon and has helped Mandibuzz reach OU usage. Instead of being able to simply switch in and prevent your hazards from disappearing, you need a user with Taunt already out on the field for the Defog user to not be able to do its job. I just want to show you guys a couple of replays of how useful Defog can be even if the other team is able to get hazards back up after a Defog:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-73687218
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-74045847

As you can see, Defog is very easy to get off, especially when you have a pokemon bulky enough to take hits even with a Stealth Rock weakness. The current meta is revolving around having answers for Talonflame, otherwise your team will get swept by it. That is why Rotom-W is #1 in usage right now, and to a lesser extent of it being a great answer to other threats and the accuracy buff to Will-o-Wisp.

well, I think people just need some time to figure out that rock type should receive more usage. While it may seem strange, the decrease of the effectiveness of SR is actually a BUFF to rock type as whole, as SR suppresses poke with rock weakness so heavily that there are almost nth in the meta get hit by rocks with SE, to an extend that even the mighty edgequake is not commonly seen. Rock type itself is also an effective counter to things like Mandibuzz, volcarona, Togekiss, Charizard, non-mega Gyarados etc. The only problem though, is the awful accuracy of stone miss and the terrible distribution of power gem, we may well use rock slide at the moment before GF finally decides that the rocks need some new toys other than setting up harzards.

 

[Not a missingno]

Metagross, Electivire, Haxorus... etc.

I don't want to say that only 'bad' players use them, but the metagame changed enough for these previous OU mons to go down to BL or even the lower tiers

I can say that AV metagross is amazing against unprepared teams,which because they think 'gross is terrible,they dont prepare.AV metagross usually takes hits from a threat and Proceeds to weaken/ko with Meteor mash/bullet punch.

 

[November Blue]

Part of what makes Talonflame so effective is that it's not a glass cannon - it can take a hit when it needs to, and it has plenty of resistances which allow it to wall stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Rotom-H, ect.

The prediction wars that Roost cause allow the hot hawk to stick around for a very long time. If you have the momentum, you can even play around SR damage. When Talonflame switches in to check something, do you let it KO your mon, and hope that the recoil + your next switchin will force it out with less than 50%? Or do you switch out, let it get that Roost and U-turn to something else, ready to come back in again later?

I've seen a few people say that Talonflame would be worthless without Gale Wings. I don't agree with that at all. It's the whole package - the typing, the bulk, the moves, the stats... You could throw Gale Wings on Pidgeot and it wouldn't be half as good. I think that GameFreak did an excellent job of balancing Talonflame; it's incredibly potent, but not broken.

 

[HNA]

it has plenty of resistances which allow it to wall stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Rotom-H, ect.

In order to wall Rotom-H, you need Roost. Else it 2HKO/OHKO you with thunderbolt

 

[November Blue]

In order to wall Rotom-H, you need Roost. Else it 2HKO/OHKO you with thunderbolt

Huh? I've never seen anybody run Thunderbolt on Rotom. Most Talonflame do have Roost though.

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 69.9 - 82.2%

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Roosting Talonflame: 34.9 - 41.1%

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 109.3 - 128.8%

Hydro Pump is the only move you need to watch out for. Volt Switch can sometimes be a bad move - if Talonflame Roosts preemptively, you're forced to switch something else into it. By switching Rotom-H in, you've let Talonflame Roost up, and given it a free U-turn out, with almost no consequence.

I don't like Rotom-H as a Talonflame check because it can't do anything unless you run Thunder Wave or a super effective coverage move.

Then again, these are all very good reasons to run Thunderbolt. What's the standard Rotom-H set?

 

[Mood4food77]

Part of what makes Talonflame so effective is that it's not a glass cannon - it can take a hit when it needs to, and it has plenty of resistances which allow it to wall stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Rotom-H, ect.

The prediction wars that Roost cause allow the hot hawk to stick around for a very long time. If you have the momentum, you can even play around SR damage. When Talonflame switches in to check something, do you let it KO your mon, and hope that the recoil + your next switchin will force it out with less than 50%? Or do you switch out, let it get that Roost and U-turn to something else, ready to come back in again later?

I've seen a few people say that Talonflame would be worthless without Gale Wings. I don't agree with that at all. It's the whole package - the typing, the bulk, the moves, the stats... You could throw Gale Wings on Pidgeot and it wouldn't be half as good. I think that GameFreak did an excellent job of balancing Talonflame; it's incredibly potent, but not broken.

if talonflame didn't have gale wings, it would be shoved all the way down in NU and pretty much be another crappy bird pokemon, let's be real here

what makes it so good is that it's freaking hard as hell to revenge kill thanks to being crazy fast with a crazy strong priority move that just so happens to be one of the best offensive types in the game. It's faster than every aqua jet user in the game and deals a crapton of damage to each one

seriously, without gale wings, talonflame is a NU pokemon

 

[Albacore]

seriously, without gale wings, talonflame is a NU pokemon

Gale Wings is defenitely a big factor, but I feel like Swors Dance is also really important. Without it, Talonflame is very weak, even with a Choice Band.
It has 81 base attack. Less than Heatran. Less than Gastrodon. Less than Blastoise. Even less than Amoonguss. When have you ever seen physical attacks on any of these?

 

[G-Von]

Part of what makes Talonflame so effective is that it's not a glass cannon - it can take a hit when it needs to, and it has plenty of resistances which allow it to wall stuff like Scizor, Heatran, Rotom-H, ect.

The prediction wars that Roost cause allow the hot hawk to stick around for a very long time. If you have the momentum, you can even play around SR damage. When Talonflame switches in to check something, do you let it KO your mon, and hope that the recoil + your next switchin will force it out with less than 50%? Or do you switch out, let it get that Roost and U-turn to something else, ready to come back in again later?

I've seen a few people say that Talonflame would be worthless without Gale Wings. I don't agree with that at all. It's the whole package - the typing, the bulk, the moves, the stats... You could throw Gale Wings on Pidgeot and it wouldn't be half as good. I think that GameFreak did an excellent job of balancing Talonflame; it's incredibly potent, but not broken.

Let me put it like this: I would never rely on Talonflame to take a hit when it needs to. And on the point of Gale Wings making Talonflame viable, I agree with you to an extent. It still has ridiculous speed and, somehow, very good power to break through stuff. However, as you saw (hopefully) in the first battle where I faced Aegislash at the end, I would have lost that battle if Talon didn't have priority Roost thanks to Gale Wings. In the second battle, if any of my opponents last 5 pokemon were scarfed, then GW was the reason for my victory as well.

I don't think Gale Wings is broken on every flying type, and I don't think Talonflame w/o GW is useless, but I think it is what pushes Talonflame over the edge.

 

[aVocado]

Gale Wings is defenitely a big factor, but I feel like Swors Dance is also really important. Without it, Talonflame is very weak, even with a Choice Band.
It has 81 base attack. Less than Heatran. Less than Gastrodon. Less than Bastoise. Even less than Amoonguss. When have you ever seen physical attacks on any of these?

It isn't weak. It can afford to run an Adamant nature, unlike Pokemon like Greninja, Noivern, or even Crobat who definitely need their speed boosting natures.

And with a Choice Band, it's strong enough to at least 2HKO, if not OHKO, most relevant sweepers/threats after very little residual damage. Examples:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 256-303 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (vs. 252 HP Latias: 70.3 - 83.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 123-144 (37.9 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Non multiscale: 75.9 - 89.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 246-289 (68.7 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (vs. CharY: 96.6 - 114%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 332-392 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That doesn't look weak at all to me.

 

[WebBowser]

Ninjask will probably kill itself before taking out Ferrothon. Also, Inflitrator isn't a good reason to run Ninjask when Noivern (gets Switcheroo, special attacker with a decent movepool), Crobat (way bulkier, breaks stall in half with taunt), and even Chandelure (gets Trick, STAB Shadow Balls off of base 145-ish Special Attack hurt, can use Memento when you don't need it anymore, murders Treverant and Gougerst) exist. Also, none if them are x4 SR weak.

As stated, neither Genesect or Ninjask should be u-turning a ferrothorn, period. I was using ferrothorn as a strict damage comparison, nothing more.

 

[Ryolain]

Gale Wings is defenitely a big factor, but I feel like Swors Dance is also really important. Without it, Talonflame is very weak, even with a Choice Band.
It has 81 base attack. Less than Heatran. Less than Gastrodon. Less than Bastoise. Even less than Amoonguss. When have you ever seen physical attacks on any of these?

SD TF is probably its least popular set right now, CB and Bulk Up are better. You forget that none of those Pokes you just compared it to have two 120 BP STAB attacks, one of which has priority and the combination of which is only resisted by one type. I've used CB TF regularly and it tears people apart. BU TF is also fantastic and allows it to play around many of its potential checks.

 

[Ulevo]

So I didn't see a thread for this 'mon but wanted to talk about it since I think he's gained a couple of favourable niche uses this generation with the way the meta is currently trending. What do people think about Shaymin?

Some notable things:
• He's now immune to Grass type status, i.e. Stun Spore/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
• Wisp is everywhere, and he's a great status absorber
• He counters Rotom-W, and isn't too bad against a couple of things
• Bulkier meta, with access to Rest + Natural Cure
• Access to Healing Wish
• He checks quite a few Pokes in certain situations because of his Speed, such as Azumarill, Heatran (unscarfed), Bug/Steel with HP Fire
• Seed Flare is really strong. If it get's a -2 Special Defense drop, Pokemon that are slower than Shaymin are often unsafe if the drop happens during the switch.

He has a lot of issues as well, mind you. Things like Genesect and Greninja running around who outspeed him and deal good damage are a problem. Things like Talonflame and Mega-Venusaur counter him.

 

[MikeDawg]

So I didn't see a thread for this 'mon but wanted to talk about it since I think he's gained a couple of favourable niche uses this generation with the way the meta is currently trending. What do people think about Shaymin?

Some notable things:
• He's now immune to Grass type stats, i.e. Stun Spore/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
• Wisp is everywhere, and he's a great status absorber
• He counters Rotom-W, and isn't too bad against a couple of things
• Bulkier meta, with access to Rest + Natural Cure
• Access to Healing Wish
• He checks quite a few Pokes in certain situations because of his Speed, such as Azumarill, Heatran (unscarfed), Bug/Steel with HP Fire
• Seed Flare is really strong. If it get's a -2 Special Defense drop, Pokemon that are slower than Shaymin are often unsafe if the drop happens during the switch.

He has a lot of issues as well, mind you. Things like Genesect and Greninja running around who outspeed him and deal good damage are a problem. Things like Talonflame and Mega-Venusaur counter him.

What does shaymin realistically have over celebi, though? The fighting resistance is crucial and it can at least dent mega venu with stab psychic attacks. The two are very similar but it seems as if celebi edges out.

 

[Ulevo]

What does shaymin realistically have over celebi, though? The fighting resistance is crucial and it can at least dent mega venu with stab psychic attacks. The two are very similar but it seems as if celebi edges out.

The main difference is that Shaymin has access to Seed Flare and doesn't have to worry about being raped by common Ghost and Dark type moves. Psychic typing actually really hurts Celebi this generation more so than it helps it, and Fighting is not as common as it used to be thanks to the increase in Ghost types and the introduction of Fairy.

 

[November Blue]

I think that Shaymin could have a niche as an offensive Life Orb wallbreaker with Rest. Come in, attack stuff until low HP, then Rest up and switch out. Something to look into?

 

[adman2]

Try it on the ladder (an alt if you're paranoid about losing), and see if it works for you. Natural Cure + Rest is already an established strategy for certain pokemon.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

I think that Shaymin could have a niche as an offensive Life Orb wallbreaker with Rest. Come in, attack stuff until low HP, then Rest up and switch out. Something to look into?

Fairly well established set, actually; I think it's been Shaymin's main set on smogon for both fourth and fifth gen.

 

[Seiterman]

Huh? I've never seen anybody run Thunderbolt on Rotom. Most Talonflame do have Roost though.

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 69.9 - 82.2%

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Roosting Talonflame: 34.9 - 41.1%

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 109.3 - 128.8%

Hydro Pump is the only move you need to watch out for. Volt Switch can sometimes be a bad move - if Talonflame Roosts preemptively, you're forced to switch something else into it. By switching Rotom-H in, you've let Talonflame Roost up, and given it a free U-turn out, with almost no consequence.

I don't like Rotom-H as a Talonflame check because it can't do anything unless you run Thunder Wave or a super effective coverage move.

Then again, these are all very good reasons to run Thunderbolt. What's the standard Rotom-H set?

Thunderbolt, in my experience, isn't actually too bad an option on Rotom-W. On more defensive sets (ie. most standard sets,) it can be used as the 4th move to hit random stuff harder than Volt Switch while not forcing Rotom-W out. More offensive sets (like AV or Choice Scarf,) may also use it to good effect for similar reasons. If that's not your cup of tea then Discharge is a neat STAB that can paralyze stuff with some luck (it's got the same chance as Scald's burns, which happen pretty frequently.)

 

[Strykeypoo]

it can be used as the 4th move to hit random stuff harder than Volt Switch while not forcing Rotom-W out.

But that's half the reason to use Rotom-W. I'd say 70% of the time volt switch will be used to gain momentum. 'Forcing' Rotom-W is one of its strengths.

 

[zachmac]

But that's half the reason to use Rotom-W. I'd say 70% of the time volt switch will be used to gain momentum. 'Forcing' Rotom-W is one of its strengths.

Yes, it is one if it's main strengths, but there still may be an occasion where it doesn't want to swap out. Not all situations will be the same.

I personally don't like it, but it can be used to help revenge kill or something.

 

[Debury]

I use discharge on Rotom-W to hit things harder and not have to switch on an almost dead electric weak Pokemon. It also has 30% chance of paralysis.

Although, on Pokemon Showdown I seem to always get burned by scald with its 30% of getting burned while paralysis seems more accurate as I can't paralyze people all of the time. Is there a reason as to why this happens?

 

[Karxrida]

I use discharge on Rotom-W to hit things harder and not have to switch on an almost dead electric weak Pokemon. It also has 30% chance of paralysis.

Although, on Pokemon Showdown I seem to always get burned by scald with its 30% of getting burned while paralysis seems more accurate as I can't paralyze people all of the time. Is there a reason as to why this happens?

The Random Number Generator/God just hates you, apparently.

 

[zachmac]

Although, on Pokemon Showdown I seem to always get burned by scald with its 30% of getting burned while paralysis seems more accurate as I can't paralyze people all of the time. Is there a reason as to why this happens?

Maybe it's that scald is used more often?

It's probably either bad luck or the human imagination messing with people's perspective of hax again. People always remember when the luck was not in your favor better then when it was.

 

[Debury]

Maybe it's that scald is used more often?

It's probably either bad luck or the human imagination messing with people's perspective of hax again. People always remember when the luck was not in your favor better then when it was.

I tend to keep a balanced mind playing Pokemon but maybe I tend to remember the Jellicents scalding me more often than not lol

The Random Number Generator/God just hates you, apparently.

Curses to whoever that person is eh.

but carrying on with Rotom-W having another electric move is definitely not something that should have its nose turned upon. Its not great when you dent a Pokemon and potentially go full circle at the expense of weakening either the Rotom or another Pokemon in your team to finish it off

 

[Pyritie]

Gale Wings is the signature ability that allows Talonflame to have its Flying type moves to be used with a +1 priority. On paper this seems kinda useless thanks in part to Talonflame's blazing 126 base speed. However, this means that it now has the strongest priority move in the entire game. Also, other priority users, namely Azumarrill and Crawdaunt, are not going to be able to revenge kill Talonflame due to Gale Wings. This also means that EVERY CHOICE SCARF USER will not be able to revenge Talonflame. You might say that this is the case with every priority user, but like I said earlier, Talonflame owns the most powerful priority move legally possible so its much more difficult to live a priority STAB Brave Bird than something previously more common like a Scizor Bullet Punch or a Breloom Mach Punch. Gale Wings also gives priority to Roost, which gives it an electric neutrality for that turn. This means if Rotom-W wants to safely kill Talonflame with Volt Switch, it will not be able to do that now thanks to Roost. It could use Hydro Pump, but that 80% accuracy can be shaky at times. This does make Talonflame susceptible to ground-type moves, but that would be a very risky play to make since it would most likely give Talonflame two more free hits on whatever it is facing and possibly 3HKO'ing it.

A bit nit picky, but aren't Yveltal's dark aura sucker punches and m-absol's sucker punches stronger than talonflame's BB? Or is CB BB stronger than both of those?

Also,

How convenient of you to bring this up. If you build a team without Rotom-W/H, Tyranitar, or Heatran, then a pokemon called Talonflame will fuck your shit up.

Is it wrong to say that talonflame is overcentralising, albeit less extremely than m-kanga was and possibly m-luc is?