Metagame Passive Aggressive

Some theoretical hazard cores that look like they could put in some work.

:Clefable: + :Gliscor: looks really strong, because both mons have insane longevity, both mons have Knock, and Ground-type Spikes + Fairy-type Rocks is a really strong pairing.

:Mamoswine: + :Gliscor: also looks strong, though it would likely require something to stop Water-type Rocks from being used against you. While :Mamoswine: isn't nearly as long-lived as :Clefable: is, it does have the advantage of a stronger MU into Flying pokemon like :Corviknight: or :Moltres:, and being able to threaten a lot of damage immediately.

:Garchomp: + :Heatran: looks like an interesting composition for offensive teams, because Dragon-type Spikes are generally good into most pokemon, and :Heatran: is able to both check the :Fairies: and :Steels: that can switch in on Dragon-type Spikes, and set up Fire-type Rocks to punish Steel-types.

:Sandy Shocks: + :Froslass:/:Mamoswine: could also be interesting, because Electric-type Rocks combined with Ice-type Spikes sounds like a nasty combination to deal with. Does thud into :Gliscor: incredibly hard, and it would likely be restricted to just HO comps because of the fragility of the pokemon, but it could be a legitimate threat if you can take out Gliscor.

In addition to these dual hazard cores, I think that single hazard teams could work as well, replacing the second hazard with just using normal attacking moves of that type.

:Gliscor: + Fairy/Flying/Ice stacking looks dangerous, using the Ground-type Spikes or Rocks to chip down the Fire/Poison/Steel/Rock/Electric pokemon that would check the Fairy/Flying/Ice threats. Something like :Gliscor: + :Enamorus:/:Comfey:/offensive :Clefable:/:Dragonite:/:Weavile: would be a scary team to check in the long run, especially if supported with a Ghost-type that could spinblock for them.

:Froslass:/:Mamoswine: + Ground/Electric types like :Sandy Shocks:, :Landorus-Therian:/:Landorus:, or :Raging Bolt: is another one that looks incredibly threatening to deal with, because BoltBeam is scary enough when you have to attack with both, and gets scarier when you could theoretically get hit with both in the same turn. Ice-type Rocks/Spikes also can chip down Grass/Flying types super quickly, allowing strong Ground-types to then break through them.

These are just a few musings, I guarantee that we'll see a lot of interesting hazard combos develop.
also for the love of god please ban honse and eleki, I don't want to deal with honse supported with Fairy-type Rocks, or an Eleki that's likely even stronger here than in OU.
 
dhelmise said:
as well as self-inflicted passive damage like Life Orb
Click to expand...

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock

If I understand correctly, Lando-T's shouldn't take LOrb chip due to being part flying, and the chip damage itself being ground type. Speaking of which, how does Ground-type Stealth Rock interact with Air Balloon (say, against a Gholdengo?)


Scyther @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bug Bite
- Close Combat

A good chunk of the tiers' hazards will no longer do 50% to Scyther. With Eviolite, Scyther becomes a decently strong win-con who is fast and tanky.
 
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it is on ps now
 
Not to be negative but the initial banlist seems missing a lott of things; unless the intention was to start it out as an ubers uu-esq powerlevel in which case some of the weaker legends like reshiram and arceus forms and such should be freed. :grimmsnarl: + pick 5 overshadows the mechanics of the tier/mons ppl talking about. Not to exactly mirror ou's bans, but if thats around the powerlevel aiming for rather than uber tiers then these should all go asap. Plenty of other borderline stuff like hearthflame, gouging, sneasler, ursaluna-bloodmoon, volcarona, etc. + some more that i also missed but atleast those are can be reasonably tested. TBF i didnt test any of these out, but yeah
 
Last edited:
DeepFriedMagikarp said:
Not to be negative but the initial banlist seems missing a lott of things; unless the intention was to start it out as an ubers uu-esq powerlevel in which case some of the weaker legends like reshiram and arceus forms and such should be freed. Currently i see no reason to use mons that interact with the mechanic like garganacl, garchomp, or heatran when you can instead load :grimmsnarl: + pick 5. Not to exactly mirror ou's bans, but if thats around the powerlevel aiming for rather than uber tiers then these should all go asap. Plenty of other borderline stuff like hearthflame, gouging, sneasler, ursaluna-bloodmoon, volcarona, etc. + some more that i also missed but atleast those are can be reasonably tested. TBF i didnt test any of these out, but i cant imagine how any of these mons dont immediately overshadow the mechanic of the tier.
Click to expand...
we literally had no idea what the power level could be so we decided to be minimalist, maybe lets have some faith in the council because this meta is 2 days old
 
Having played a handful of games I can already say I love this tier, this is honestly one of the coolest tiers I've played and once the banlist gets ironed out a bit it's gonna feel super smooth to play and build for. Love just how many Pokemon and strategies feel adequately boosted here.

Here's a few more things I've built/experimented with.

:sv/quagsire:
Quagsire @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Recover
- Toxic

This is a pretty cool guy on stall. Water-type hazards hit a lot of things neutrally and Toxic is good for Spikes-immune Pokemon and Boot wearers. Unaware helps a lot into setup guys,

:sv/tinkaton:
Tinkaton (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker / Pickpocket
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 56 SpD / 200 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Gigaton Hammer
- Knock Off
- Encore

Clefable is most team's Fairy rocker of choice, but I've found Tinkaton to be a really fun alternative on slightly faster-paced or balance teams. Boots + Mold Breaker make it really consistent into bulky offenses with Hatterene or weather with Espeon, but Air Balloon and Pickpocket is another cool combination for swiping a foe's Timberland® Classic Waterproof Boots. Encore also brings a lot of value in a metagame so full of status moves, and it's a pretty free moveslot compared to Clefable who can struggle to fit it.

:sv/infernape:
Infernape @ Focus Sash
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Endeavor / Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off
- Knock Off / Flare Blitz

Infernape is a surprisingly effective lead. Fire-type Stealth Rock is super valuable in any metagame with all of Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Corviknight/Skarmory available, and Taunt is useful to shut down any slower utility Pokemon. Endeavor is a great tool for trading, Will-O-Wisp is Will-O-Wisp, and Knock Off is extremely valuable for removing timbs and other items. Flare Blitz is also a really nice move to click at 1 HP, sacrificing yourself to prevent a Defog or just to force a trade.

A few other thoughts on this extremely early stage of the metagame, these might not apply with any future bans but I'll likely have even more to say by that time

1) Clefable is mandatory on almost any fat team. Garganacl isn't mandatory, but it's pushing it. These two provide so much value through their abilities, general bulk, and really dumb tools like Knock Off and Salt Cure respectively.

2) Sun is really good, Torkoal being able to spread Fire-type Stealth Rock makes it a lot easier to overload neutral targets, especially in tandem with Knock Off users like Roaring Moon.

3) Rain is also really good but for different reasons. Instead of taking advantage of hazards, Rain is really well suited to take advantage of other forms of passive damage like Whirlpool, Toxic, and even more niche stuff like Wrap. Pelipper being an amazing Knock Off user with reliable recovery and valuable resistances is also really nice, making it a genuinely viable option to run Rain balance or even Rain fat.

4) Knock Off is by far the best non-passive-damage move in the tier right now. This is prone to change as the metagame develops, but right now, if you're anything but the most hyper of hyper offenses, having at least one Knock Off user is borderline mandatory. This is already the case in standard, yes, but it is absolutely amplified here. Sacrificing an entire Pokemon just to guarantee a Knock Off on Heavy-Duty Boots users like Gholdengo or Raging Bolt is often a fair trade. Aside from just Heavy-Duty Boots, removing items like Shed Shell, Leftovers, or Rocky Helmet is super high value to enable your own passive damage. Likewise, most teams need a dedicated Knock Off absorber like Gliscor or Great Tusk.

Love the metagame so far :boi:
 
There have been a few room tours already and from what I have seen and what have experienced is easy to say that the first round of bans should be on a bunch of HO mons, but that should be easy to solve (I really really want Magearna gone before anything else), no much need to discuss it much further.
Being able to reduce the Life Orb damage has been the defining factor so far, stuff like Blaziken, Chien-Pao and Walking Wake enjoy what is essentially free damage, but you dont want to spam it because boots are a bit too important here.
SR are in the awkward spot where they are so scary everything runs boots which means they rarely ever get to hurt more than one mon per game so setting them often feels like wasting a turn, but that should improve after everything slow-downs a bit. I kinda want boots gone so is easier for the mechanic to be present in all games while having a huge impact in how things play out, but is not an easy choice for obvious reasons.
 
Gholdengo, Heat Rock, Speed Boost, Gouging Fire, and Raging Bolt have been banned from Passive Aggressive!​

DhelmiseKennGimmickyVerdict
GholdengoBanBanBanBanned
Heat RockBanBanBanBanned
Speed BoostBanBanBanBanned
Gouging FireBanBanBanBanned
Raging BoltBanBanBanBanned

:sv/gholdengo:
No surprise why this guy got banned, completely negating any form of status as well as hazard removal on top of it's other fantastic traits made it quite overbearing.

:heat rock:
Sun has immediately taken off as an entirely overbearing presence with too many powerful abusers to reliably counter; a Heat Rock ban was chosen over a full Drought ban to hopefully keep Sun a more balanced strategy.

:sv/blaziken: :sv/espathra:
Speed Boost was banned for the combination of enabling Espathra to snowball out of control far too quickly as well as turning Blaziken into an incredibly deadly sweeper, taking advantage of lowered Recoil from Flare Blitz and Life Orb alike to be a terrifying sweeper.

:sv/gouging-fire: :sv/raging-bolt:
Both of these were banned for being equally overbearing both in and out of sun; Gouging Fire takes advantage of not needing Heavy-Duty Boots to be an incredibly powerful Flare Blitz sweeper that's simultaneously very difficult to remove, while Raging Bolt was simply too fat, too strong, and too hard to wear down.

We're aware of other powerful Hyper Offense threats in the metagame right now such as Magearna, and they're all on the radar, but without many games played, we want to keep the banlist minimal until absolutely neccessary. Also, welcome, uh, myself to PA council!

Tagging dhelmise just to fuck with them​
 
It’s time for Passive Damage categorization part 2: Fuckery Boogaloo.

N/A
N/A
:Dragapult:
N/A
N/A
:Annihilape:
:Ceruledge:
:Skeledirge:
:Typhlosion-Hisui:
N/A
All Ghosts not in a different category
:Sinistcha:
:Brambleghast:
:Decidueye:
:Golurk:
:Froslass:
:Zoroark-Hisui:
:Pecharunt:
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A

:Volcarona:
:Hydreigon:
:Houndoom:
:Chi-Yu:
:Dragonite:
:Roaring Moon:
:Salamence:
:Altaria:
N/A
N/A
:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze:
:Cinderace:
:Iron Moth:
:Moltres:
:Blaziken:/:Combusken:
:Ceruledge:
:Arcanine-Hisui:/:Arcanine:
:Heatran:
:Skeledirge:
:Armarouge:
:Entei:
:Talonflame:
:Torkoal:
:Volcanion:
:Incineroar:
:Infernape:
:Typhlosion:/:Typhlosion-Hisui:
:Delphox:
:Emboar:
:Camerupt:
:Charizard:
:Coalossal:
:Flareon:
:Magcargo:
:Magmortar:
:Ninetales:
:Pyroar:
N/A
:Chandelure:
N/A
:Flygon:
N/A
:Smeargle:
:Skuntank:
:Mew:
N/A
N/A
N/A

:Galvantula:
:Ariados:
:Illumise:
:Volbeat:
N/A
:Dragapult:
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
:Hydrapple:
:Brambleghast:
N/A
:Frosmoth:
:Smeargle:
:Toxapex:
N/A
N/A
N/A
:Araquanid:

N/A
N/A
:Latias:
:Tatsugiri:
N/A
N/A
:Tauros-Paldea-Aqua:
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
N/A
:Cramorant:
N/A
N/A
N/A
:Eiscue:
:Smeargle:
:Slowking-Galar:
:Dragalge:
:Slowbro-Galar:
:Mew:
N/A
N/A
:Alomomola:
:Primarina:
:Samurott-Hisui:/:Samurott:
:Walking Wake:
:Pelipper:
:Azumarill:
:Quaquaval:/:Quaxwell:
:Slowking:
:Blastoise:
:Manaphy:
:Barraskewda:
:Basculegion:/:Basculegion-F:
:Crawdaunt:
:Empoleon:
:Politoed:
:Quagsire:
:Slowbro:
:Cloyster:
:Feraligatr:
:Gyarados:
:Suicune:
:Inteleon:
:Milotic:
:Swampert:
:Tentacruel:
:Vaporeon:
:Drednaw:
:Gastrodon:
:Bruxish:
:Kingdra:
:Basculin:/:Basculin-Blue-Striped:/:Basculin-White-Striped:
:Dewgong:
:Floatzel:
:Golduck:
:Lanturn:
:Lapras:
:Ludicolo:
:Lumineon:
:Luvdisc:
:Phione:
:Poliwrath:
:Qwilfish:
:Swanna:
:Whiscash:
:Wugtrio:

:Forretress:
:Ting-Lu:
:Garchomp:
:Sandy Shocks:
N/A
N/A
:Magcargo:
N/A
:Palossand:
:Torterra:
:Gliscor:/:Gligar:
:Landorus:/:Landorus-Therian:
:Donphan:
:Excadrill:
:Hippowdon:
:Krookodile:
:Flygon:
:Mudsdale:
:Dugtrio:/:Dugtrio-Alola:
:Sandaconda:
:Sandslash:
:Mamoswine:/:Piloswine:
:Smeargle:
N/A
:Mew:
:Glimmora:
:Tyranitar:
:Iron Thorns:
:Diancie:
:Carbink:
:Coalossal:
:Bastiodon:
:Probopass:
:Regirock:
:Stonjourner:
:Sudowoodo:
:Skarmory:
:Registeel:
:Orthworm:
:Swampert:
:Drednaw:
:Gastrodon:
:Whiscash:

N/A
:Malamar:
:Dragonite:
N/A
:Comfey:
N/A
N/A
N/A
N/A
:Serperior:
:Victreebel:
:Toedscruel:
N/A
:Smeargle:
:Arbok:
:Seviper:
:Deoxys-Speed:/:Deoxys-Defense:
:Chimecho:
N/A
:Orthworm:
:Milotic:
:Tentacruel:
:Wugtrio:

:Zarude: Bind
:Eelektross: Bind
:Regieleki: Thunder Cage
:Comfey: Bind
:Heatran: Magma Storm
:Dusknoir: Bind
:Cryogonal: Bind
:Smeargle: All of the above
:Inteleon: Bind

:Scizor:
:Forretress:
:Kleavor:
:Slither Wing:
:Rabsca:
:Kingambit:/:Bisharp:
:Ting-Lu:
:Moltres-Galar:
:Mandibuzz:
:Dragonite:
:Garchomp:
:Kommo-O:
:Latias:
:Latios:
:Zapdos:
:Sandy Shocks:
:Oricorio-Pom-Pom:
:Magnezone:/:Magneton:
:Scream Tail:
:Zamazenta:
:Zapdos-Galar:
:Tauros-Paldea-Combat:/:Tauros-Paldea-Aqua:/:Tauros-Paldea-Blaze:
:Hitmontop:
:Moltres:
:Arcanine-Hisui:
:Heatran:
:Entei:
:Volcanion:
:Torkoal:
:Camerupt:
:Charizard:
:Magcargo:
:Oricorio:
:Tornadus-Therian:/:Tornadus:
:Bombirdier:
:Houndstone:
:Oricorio-Sensu:
:Palossand:
:Ogerpon:/:Ogerpon-Hearthflame:/:Ogerpon-Wellspring:/:Ogerpon-Cornerstone:
:Torterra:
:Cacturne:
:Scovillain:
:Gliscor:/:Gligar:
:Great Tusk:
:Landorus:/:Landorus-Therian:
:Donphan:
:Excadrill:
:Rhyperior:
:Hippowdon:
:Krookodile:
:Flygon:
:Golurk:
:Mudsdale:
:Dugtrio:/:Dugtrio-Alola:
:Sandaconda:
:Sandslash:
:Mamoswine:/:Piloswine:
:Articuno:
:Avalugg-Hisui:
:Blissey:/:Chansey:
:Dudunsparce:/:Dunsparce:
:Gumshoos:
:Snorlax:
:Tauros:
:Wigglytuff:
:Smeargle:
:Clodsire:
:Muk:/:Muk-Alola:
:Slowbro-Galar:
:Espathra:
:Hoopa-Unbound:/:Hoopa:
:Azelf:
:Mew:
:Necrozma:
:Uxie:
:Mesprit:
:Oricorio-Pa’u:
:Garganacl:
:Glimmora:
:Iron Boulder:
:Tyranitar:
:Terrakion:
:Lycanroc:/:Lycanroc-Dusk:/:Lycanroc-Midnight:
:Iron Thorns:
:Diancie:
:Carbink:
:Coalossal:
:Minior:
:Bastiodon:
:Golem:/:Golem-Alola:
:Klawf:
:Probopass:
:Rampardos:
:Regirock:
:Stonjourner:
:Sudowoodo:
:Cobalion:
:Metagross:
:Skarmory:
:Goodra-Hisui:
:Jirachi:
:Revavroom:
:Bronzong:
:Klefki:
:Registeel:
:Copperajah:
:Orthworm:
:Quagsire:
:Gyarados:
:Suicune:
:Drednaw:
:Gastrodon:
:Whiscash:
:Wugtrio:

All of these are going to be added to my original post to keep them all in the same place
 
And because I'm feeling in the mood for it today, here's a compilation of every pokemon that takes reduced Recoil Damage, for reasons I guess.
:Volcarona:
:Scizor:
:Forretress:
:Ribombee:
:Slither Wing:
:Yanmega:
:Heracross:
:Scyther:
:Araquanid:
:Ariados:
:Masquerain:
:Venomoth:
:Vespiquen:
:Vivillon:
:Darkrai:
:Meowscarada:
:Kingambit:/:Bisharp:
:Samurott-Hisui:
:Ting-Lu:
:Chien-Pao:
:Chi-Yu:
:Greninja:
:Mandibuzz:
:Weavile:/:Sneasel:
:Hydreigon:
:Iron Jugulis:
:Zarude:
:Crawdaunt:
:Umbreon:
:Incineroar:
:Muk-Alola:
:Skuntank:
:Overqwil:/:Qwilfish-Hisui:
:Wo-Chien:
:Zoroark:
:Brute Bonnet:
:Cacturne:
:Honchkrow:
:Houndoom:
:Mabosstiff:
:Mightyena:
:Morpeko:
:Persian-Alola:
:Shiftry:
:Archaludon:/:Duraludon:
:Hydreigon:
:Goodra-Hisui:
:Dragalge:
:Regieleki:
:Magnezone:/:Magnezone:
:Raikou:
:Rotom-Heat:/:Rotom:/:Rotom-Frost:
:Toxtricity:
:Ampharos:
:Dedenne:
:Eelektross:
:Electivire:
:Electrode:
:Jolteon:
:Lanturn:
:Luxray:
:Minun:
:Morpeko:
:Pachirisu:
:Pikachu:
:Pincurchin:
:Raichu:/:Raichu-Alola:
:Zebstrika:
:Primarina:
:Azumarill:
:Tinkaton:
:Ribombee:
:Dedenne:
:Whimsicott:
:Sneasler:
:Blaziken:
:Cobalion:
:Terrakion:
:Keldeo:
:Virizion:
:Okidogi:
:Quaquaval:
:Hawlucha:
:Chesnaught:
:Slither Wing:
:Zapdos-Galar:
:Lilligant-Hisui:
:Breloom:
:Heracross:
:Infernape:
:Emboar:
:Toxicroak:
:Pawmot:
:Decidueye-Hisui:
:Medicham:
:Poliwrath:
:Cinderace:
:Iron Moth:
:Moltres:
:Blaziken:
:Ceruledge:
:Chi-Yu:
:Volcarona:
:Skeledirge:
:Armarouge:
:Entei:
:Talonflame:
:Torkoal:
:Incineroar:
:Infernape:
:Typhlosion:/:Typhlosion-Hisui:
:Arcanine:
:Rotom-Heat:
:Salazzle:
:Delphox:
:Emboar:
:Camerupt:
:Charizard:
:Flareon:
:Houndoom:
:Magmortar:
:Ninetales:
:Oricorio:
:Pyroar:
:Corviknight:
:Moltres:
:Moltres-Galar:
:Pelipper:
:Mandibuzz:
:Skarmory:
:Hawlucha:
:Iron Jugulis:
:Talonflame:
:Yanmega:
:Zapdos-Galar:
:Gyarados:
:Braviary-Hisui:
:Scyther:
:Articuno-Galar:
:Charizard:
:Cramorant:
:Masquerain:
:Oricorio:/:Oricorio-Pa’u:
:Swanna:
:Vespiquen:
:Vivillon:
:Ceruledge:
:Sinistcha:
:Skeledirge:
:Basculegion:/:Basculegion-F:
:Brambleghast:
:Typhlosion-Hisui:
:Decidueye:
:Hoopa:
:Froslass:
:Rotom:
:Meowscarada:
:Rillaboom:
:Ogerpon:
:Serperior:
:Sinistcha:
:Iron Leaves:
:Zarude:
:Chesnaught:
:Brambleghast:
:Breloom:
:Tsareena:
:Decidueye:/:Decidueye-Hisui:
:Wo-Chien:
:Abomasnow:
:Arboliva:
:Bellossom:
:Brute Bonnet:
:Cacturne:
:Calyrex:
:Gogoat:
:Leafeon:
:Exeggutor:
:Lilligant:
:Lurantis:
:Meganium:
:Sceptile:
:Shaymin:
:Shiftry:
:Sunflora:
:Toedscruel:
:Virizion:
:Whimsicott:
:Ting-Lu:
:Clodsire:
:Camerupt:
:Golem:
:Toedscruel:
:Chien-Pao:
:Weavile:/:Sneasel:
:Ninetales-Alola:
:Cloyster:
:Avalugg:/:Avalugg-Hisui:
:Cetitan:
:Abomasnow:
:Beartic:
:Cryogonal:
:Dewgong:
:Eiscue:
:Froslass:
:Frosmoth:
:Glaceon:
:Glalie:
:Glastrier:
:Lapras:
:Regice:
:Rotom-Frost:
:Indeedee:/:Indeedee-F:
:Pyroar:
:Arboliva:
:Grafaiai:
:Iron Moth:
:Slowking-Galar:
:Slowbro-Galar:
:Sneasler:
:Okidogi:
:Toxapex:
:Revavroom:
:Dragalge:
:Skuntank:
:Muk:/:Muk-Alola:
:Qwilfish-Hisui:/:Overqwil:
:Munkidori:
:Tentacruel:
:Toxicroak:
:Salazzle:
:Toxtricity:
:Arbok:
:Ariados:
:Grafaiai:
:Qwilfish:
:Seviper:
:Swalot:
:Venomoth:
:Weezing:
:Hatterene:
:Iron Crown:
:Slowking-Galar:/:Slowking:
:Slowbro-Galar:/:Slowbro:
:Espathra:
:Metagross:
:Iron Leaves:
:Armarouge:
:Azelf:
:Gardevoir:
:Jirachi:
:Reuniclus:
:Cresselia:
:Deoxys-Speed:/:Deoxys-Defense:
:Mew:
:Necrozma:
:Bronzong:
:Espeon:
:Munkidori:
:Indeedee:/:Indeedee-F:
:Braviary-Hisui:
:Hoopa:
:Articuno-Galar:
:Bruxish:
:Delphox:
:Uxie:
:Calyrex:
:Chimecho:
:Exeggutor:
:Gothitelle:
:Grumpig:
:Hypno:
:Medicham:
:Meowstic:/:Meowstic-F:
:Mesprit:
:Oricorio-Pa’u:
:Raichu-Alola:
:Veluza:
:Terrakion:
:Avalugg-Hisui:
:Bastiodon:
:Golem:
:Probopass:
:Corviknight:
:Iron Crown:
:Kingambit:/:Bisharp:
:Archaludon:/:Duraludon:
:Cobalion:
:Metagross:
:Scizor:
:Skarmory:
:Tinkaton:
:Empoleon:
:Forretress:
:Goodra-Hisui:
:Jirachi:
:Magnezone:/:Magneton:
:Revavroom:
:Bronzong:
:Registeel:
:Copperajah:
:Bastiodon:
:Orthworm:
:Perrserker:
:Probopass:
:Alomomola:
:Dondozo:
:Primarina:
:Samurott-Hisui:
:Pelipper:
:Palafin:
:Azumarill:
:Greninja:
:Keldeo:
:Quaquaval:
:Slowking:
:Toxapex:
:Slowbro:
:Blastoise:
:Manaphy:
:Barraskewda:
:Basculegion:/:Basculegion-F:
:Crawdaunt:
:Empoleon:
:Politoed:
:Cloyster:
:Feraligatr:
:Gyarados:
:Suicune:
:Araquanid:
:Inteleon:
:Milotic:
:Tentacruel:
:Vaporeon:
:Bruxish:
:Basculin:/:Basculin-Blue-Striped:/:Basculin-White-Striped:
:Clawitzer:
:Cramorant:
:Dewgong:
:Floatzel:
:Golduck:
:Lapras:
:Lumineon:
:Luvdisc:
:Phione:
:Poliwrath:
:Qwilfish:
:Swanna:
:Veluza:
:Wugtrio:

N/A
:Grimmsnarl:
:Scrafty:
:Walking Wake:
:Kingdra:
:Hydrapple:/:Dipplin:
:Appletun:
:Flapple:
:Exeggutor-Alola:
:Rotom-Mow:
:Electrode-Hisui:
:Grimmsnarl:
:Scrafty:
:Volcanion:
:Arcanine-Hisui:
:Magcargo:
:Jumpluff:
:Tropius:
:Pecharunt:
:Jumpluff:
:Tropius:
:Amoonguss:
:Vileplume:
:Venusaur:
:Victreebel:
:Ogerpon-Hearthflame:/:Scovillain:
:Hydrapple:/:Dipplin:
:Appletun:
:Flapple:
:Exeggutor-Alola:
:Clodsire:
:Sandslash-Alola:
:Clodsire:
:Pecharunt:
N/A
:Arcanine-Hisui:
:Magcargo:
N/A
:Ludicolo:
:Walking Wake:
:Kingdra:

N/A
:Hoopa-Unbound:
N/A
:Sandy Shocks:
N/A
:Annihilape:
N/A
:Landorus:/:Landorus-Therian:
:Gliscor:/:Gligar:
:Zoroark-Hisui:
:Annihilape:
N/A
:Landorus:/:Landorus-Therian:
:Gliscor:/:Gligar:
:Flygon:
:Sandy Shocks:
N/A
:Zoroark-Hisui:
N/A
:Hoopa-Unbound:
N/A
N/A
N/A
 
The meta looks like it'll have a terrible Day 1 launch.

This isn't a bash on the OM or the idea at all; I like the concept here and want to try out things in this sort of meta.
No, the problem is that the pre-launch ban list is so underdeveloped an missing such obvious outliers or discussion topics that I have no idea how it got past the initial stage of development.

Terastalizing

WHAT?????

How the hell did THIS not get caught before greenlight, in a metagame where the whole mechanic involves what type you currently are? Let's just forget about how controversial it already is in OU for the reasons that have already been complained about before, because I'm not doing that (yet) and that's not even the point here.

So, unless I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of this OM, Terastalizing is a free and premium way for Pokemon to cheat the entire core mechanic of the OM by either shifting the type of passive damage it can suddenly deal that would normally not be possible to acquire or prepare for OR by suddenly resisting passive damage and ruining the whole point of the new mechanic in the first place. There are also really obscure interactions that Terastalizing would have with other attacks like Magma Storm launched by Heatran that cause very unintuitive instances of, for example, a Pokemon taking the Fire damage off Magma Storm and then taking passive damage related to Heatran's Tera type because that's now its primary type and not Fire, and there's really nothing you can do about this especially given you can't switch out.

Also, what happens with Stellar Terastalizing? Does that mean that no Pokemon resists any passive damage that it inflicts? Does this mean every interaction of passive damage is treated as neutral effective against it? How does this interact with other Stellar types? Does it increase in damage the first time a status is inflicted on an opponent? All of these questions and more pop up if Terastalizing affects the mechanic the way I think it does.

How badly does Terastalizing affect the meta the way it stands right now? Well...


Regieleki

Regieleki @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Transistor
Tera Type: Ice / Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt / Thunder Cage
- Tera Blast
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin

Dude, seriously? I get allowing Regieleki into a new metagame, but NOT WHILE TERASTALIZING IS ALLOWED! Thunder Cage brings up the exact scenario I discussed with Magma Storm Heatran, where it deals Electric damage on attack but changes the passive damage dealt based off which Tera type it currently is. Slap on the fact that its coverage is nearly unresisted, it can remove hazards, and it's impossible to pin down without priority due to outspeeding everything, and you have an immediate problem that the tier has to figure out how to deal with.


Terapagos

Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shift
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe OR 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe
Tera Type: Stellar
Modest Nature OR Timid Nature
- Rock Polish / Rapid Spin
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse / Earth Power
- Calm Mind

Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shift
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Stellar
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock / Roar
- Tera Starstorm / Roar

You've got to be kidding me. You're allowing Terapagos in a tier with Terastalization? What do you THINK is going to happen?? This not only enables one of the best boosting sweepers available, but also creates really bizarre interactions with Stellar Terastalizing where nothing resists the passive damage Terapagos sets up, again, cheating the entire mechanic.


Baxcalibur

Baxcalibur @ Loaded Dice / Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush / Scale Shot / Substitute
- Earthquake / Substitute
- Dragon Dance / Swords Dance

Nah, you know what? Who even needs to exploit passive damage like the metagame incentivizes us to when you can just set up Aurora Veil and enable a free sweep? This pretty much invalidates the whole point of the format because you can't really beat this through the passive damage mechanics and you don't even need to use the mechanic to make this win, just plug & play.


Sneasler

Sneasler @ Grassy Seed / Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Unburden / Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dark / Flying / Ghost
Adamant Nature OR Jolly Nature
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop / Acrobatics / Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance / U-Turn

While we're at it, let's also rob games either by abusing the passive damage constantly being spread or before any passive damage plays can even matter. Set up a Swords Dance and enable Unburden (because oh yeah, that's also allowed to) to sweep anything and everything OR constantly spread status throughout the game by spamming Poison Touch U-Turn and forcing Fighting-type passive damage over time, all while stealing games with Dire Claw for no reason. There isn't anything in this new meta that would make this sort of thing fine as opposed to OU, so why even theory bringing it back in the first place?


Shed Tail

Cyclizar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Shed Tail
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Pass along free Substitute pivots to your teammates that enables setup and blocks passive damage attacks while removing hazards and items for free due to your crazy speed and Regenerator, because THAT'S what a metagame with increased focus on hyper-offense and an emphasis on spreading passive damage needs!


Magearna

Magearna @ Leftovers / Weakness Policy
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear / Iron Defense
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

Magearna @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Water / Flying
Bold Nature OR Calm Nature
- Fleur Cannon / Draining Kiss
- Spikes
- Encore / Thunder Wave / Pain Split / Ice Beam
- Volt Switch

I'm not going to lie, I have no idea how this got past the initial ban list for pretty clear reasons. It either lays down hazards or turns into an easy win condition that resists most types meaning it's difficult to wear down even with passive damage. I hope you brought Fire-type hazards to all of your games >_>


Annihilape

Annihilape @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Rest / Taunt

And finally, once all of the hyper-offense hell is removed, let's slap in a Pokemon that can tank any weak hits even combined with the passive damage over time and snowball into an instant killing machine. It doesn't even need Terastalizing to become a major problem and may as well be a staple because it inherently blocks Rapid Spin from removing all of the hazard damage being accumulated. It's really unfair no matter how you look at it.




And yes, as it currently stands, all of these are currently legal for the format.

I get that decisions get made as the meta goes on over time, but so many of these feel like pretty obvious oversights that I have no clue how they weren't either discussed or addressed beforehand. The format doesn't sound playable atm.
 
Last edited:
NidoTheKing said:
The meta looks like it'll have a terrible Day 1 launch.

This isn't a bash on the OM or the idea at all; I like the concept here and want to try out things in this sort of meta.
No, the problem is that the pre-launch ban list is so underdeveloped an missing such obvious outliers or discussion topics that I have no idea how it got past the initial stage of development.

Terastalizing
How the hell did THIS not get caught before greenlight? Let's just forget about how controversial it already is in OU for the reasons that have already been complained about before, because I'm not doing that (yet) and that's not even the point here.

So, unless I'm misunderstanding the mechanics of this OM, Terastalizing is a free and premium way for Pokemon to cheat the entire core mechanic of the OM by either shifting the type of passive damage it can suddenly deal that would normally not be possible to acquire or prepare for OR by suddenly resisting passive damage and ruining the whole point of the new mechanic in the first place. There are also really obscure interactions that Terastalizing would have with other attacks like Magma Storm launched by Heatran that cause very unintuitive instances of, for example, a Pokemon taking the Fire damage off Magma Storm and then taking passive damage related to Heatran's Tera type because that's now its primary type and not Fire, and there's really nothing you can do about this especially given you can't switch out.

Also, what happens with Stellar Terastalizing? Does that mean that no Pokemon resists any passive damage that it inflicts? Does this mean every interaction of passive damage is treated as neutral effective against it? How does this interact with other Stellar types? Does it increase in damage the first time a status is inflicted on an opponent? All of these questions and more pop up if Terastalizing affects the mechanic the way I think it does.
How badly does Terastalizing affect the meta the way it stands right now? Well...


Regieleki
Regieleki @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Transistor
Tera Type: Ice / Water
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt / Thunder Cage
- Tera Blast
- Substitute / Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin

Dude, seriously? I get allowing Regieleki into a new metagame, but NOT WHILE TERASTALIZING IS ALLOWED! Thunder Cage brings up the exact scenario I discussed with Magma Storm Heatran, where it deals Electric damage on attack but changes the passive damage dealt based off which Tera type it currently is. Slap on the fact that its coverage is nearly unresisted, it can remove hazards, and it's impossible to pin down without priority due to outspeeding everything, and you have an immediate problem that the tier has to figure out how to deal with.


Terapagos
Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shift
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe OR 252 HP / 76 SpA / 180 Spe
Tera Type: Stellar
Modest Nature OR Timid Nature
- Rock Polish / Rapid Spin
- Tera Starstorm
- Dark Pulse / Earth Power
- Calm Mind

Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shift
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Stellar
Calm Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock / Roar
- Tera Starstorm / Roar

You've got to be kidding me. You're allowing Terapagos in a tier with Terastalization? What do you THINK is going to happen?? This not only enables one of the best boosting sweepers available, but also creates really bizarre interactions with Stellar Terastalizing where nothing resists the passive damage Terapagos sets up, again, cheating the entire mechanic.


Baxcalibur
Baxcalibur @ Loaded Dice / Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Fairy
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush / Scale Shot / Substitute
- Earthquake / Substitute
- Dragon Dance / Swords Dance

Nah, you know what? Who even needs to exploit passive damage like the metagame incentivizes us to when you can just set up Aurora Veil and enable a free sweep? This pretty much invalidates the whole point of the format because you can't really beat this through the passive damage mechanics and you don't even need to use the mechanic to make this win, just plug & play.


Sneasler
Sneasler @ Grassy Seed / Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Unburden / Poison Touch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dark / Flying / Ghost
Adamant Nature OR Jolly Nature
- Dire Claw
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop / Acrobatics / Shadow Claw
- Swords Dance / U-Turn

While we're at it, let's also rob games either by abusing the passive damage constantly being spread or before any passive damage plays can even matter. Set up a Swords Dance and enable Unburden (because oh yeah, that's also allowed to) to sweep anything and everything OR constantly spread status throughout the game by spamming Poison Touch U-Turn and forcing Fighting-type passive damage over time, all while stealing games with Dire Claw for no reason. There isn't anything in this new meta that would make this sort of thing fine as opposed to OU, so why even theory bringing it back in the first place?


Shed Tail
Cyclizar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Shed Tail
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Pass along free Substitute pivots to your teammates that enables setup and blocks passive damage attacks while removing hazards and items for free due to your crazy speed and Regenerator, because THAT'S what a metagame with increased focus on hyper-offense and an emphasis on spreading passive damage needs!


Magearna
Magearna @ Leftovers / Weakness Policy
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear / Iron Defense
- Stored Power
- Draining Kiss

Magearna @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD OR 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Tera Type: Water / Flying
Bold Nature OR Calm Nature
- Fleur Cannon / Draining Kiss
- Spikes
- Encore / Thunder Wave / Pain Split / Ice Beam
- Volt Switch

I'm not going to lie, I have no idea how this got past the initial ban list for pretty clear reasons. It either lays down hazards or turns into an easy win condition that resists most types meaning it's difficult to wear down even with passive damage. I hope you brought Fire-type hazards to all of your games >_>


Annihilape
Annihilape @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Rest / Taunt

And finally, once all of the hyper-offense hell is removed, let's slap in a Pokemon that can tank any weak hits even combined with the passive damage over time and snowball into an instant killing machine. It doesn't even need Terastalizing to become a major problem and may as well be a staple because it inherently blocks Rapid Spin from removing all of the hazard damage being accumulated. It's really unfair no matter how you look at it.

I get that decisions get made as the meta goes on over time, but so many of these feel like pretty obvious oversights that I have no clue how they weren't either discussed or addressed beforehand. The format doesn't sound playable atm.
Click to expand...
While I agree with a lot of the things you have an issue with, you're going about it the wrong way. You're ranting and raving about them and being a doomer about the health of the meta instead of being calm and sensible. Instead of going "oh god these make everything unplayable and absolutely break everything and need banned now now now or everything is doomed," you could have made a list of things you think are broken, like you have, but presented the issues with them and why you think they're broken instead of just screaming that everything is doomed. Don't just scream everything is broken, try to open a discussion about why things are or aren't broken, and go from there. Nobody likes seeing doomer posts, even if they agree with their points being raised.
 
ANinjaDude said:
While I agree with a lot of the things you have an issue with, you're going about it the wrong way. You're ranting and raving about them and being a doomer about the health of the meta instead of being calm and sensible. Instead of going "oh god these make everything unplayable and absolutely break everything and need banned now now now or everything is doomed," you could have made a list of things you think are broken, like you have, but presented the issues with them and why you think they're broken instead of just screaming that everything is doomed. Don't just scream everything is broken, try to open a discussion about why things are or aren't broken, and go from there. Nobody likes seeing doomer posts, even if they agree with their points being raised.
Click to expand...
The doomposting tone is a bad habit of mine that I'm still working out to this day.

Still, it doesn't change what I'm trying to say: The current initial ban list is way too minimal and is easily exploitable in ways that I'm pretty sure nobody wanted to deal with. I wouldn't have a problem with it if some of the choices weren't so unbelievable at first (like Terastalizing or allowing Regieleki + Terapagos with it) or didn't just kill the whole gimmick of the tier by allowing things that would easily warp the meta even without it (the hyper-offense hell of Sneasler, Baxcalibur, etc.).

Maybe we should address the extremely obvious problems before releasing the new OM to the public, yeah?
 
NidoTheKing said:
The doomposting tone is a bad habit of mine that I'm still working out to this day.

Still, it doesn't change what I'm trying to say: The current initial ban list is way too minimal and is easily exploitable in ways that I'm pretty sure nobody wanted to deal with. I wouldn't have a problem with it if some of the choices weren't so unbelievable at first (like Terastalizing or allowing Regieleki + Terapagos with it) or didn't just kill the whole gimmick of the tier by allowing things that would easily warp the meta even without it (the hyper-offense hell of Sneasler, Baxcalibur, etc.).

Maybe we should address the extremely obvious problems before releasing the new OM to the public, yeah?
Click to expand...
Frankly, doomposting or not, your defeatist attitude and the lack of faith you have in the council to tier an OM that has been out for 2 weeks and has ~100 games of testing total is insanely annoying and rude. If you don't like the banlist, don't play the OM. We were already fixing up our banlist to completely lower the power level of the OM before you started crying about this because we want people to actually utilize the OM's mechanics, but you posting like that does nothing for the health of the meta and makes the council 1) not like you and 2) discouraged.

Any future posts of yours with this insanely condescending undertone will be deleted on sight. I encourage you to more proactively fix your tone in the meantime.
 
NidoTheKing said:
The doomposting tone is a bad habit of mine that I'm still working out to this day.
Click to expand...
you have enough formatting that you definitely intended to sound (well) passive aggressive (badumtsh)

to not make this a one liner, something that may alleviate some of the particular meta problems.

NidoTheKing said:
Magearna
Click to expand...

Like you already said, fire type hazards are already a great answer, but something else interesting might be something like--

:skeledirge:

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass/Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Spin
- Hex
- Slack Off

Fire Spin can trap and kill non-volt switch Magearna sets, and against volt switch sets can burn/recover on the switch. While Skeledirge isn't likely super viable outside of the Mage matchup, its' still decent overall and a great example mon of Passive Aggressives' mechanics. Boots over Leftovers so you don't die to Water/Ground type Spikes. Tera Grass beats ground type switch-ins like Gliscor/Lando

NidoTheKing said:
Annihilape
Click to expand...
Fairy/Psychic/Ghost hazards all destroy Annihilape since they don't boost rage fist. Outside of that, any of the strong Flyings have a relatively decent MU.

:deoxys-speed:
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost/Fairy/Fighting
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Psycho Boost
- Superpower

generic suicide lead Deo-S set here. Psychic type SRocks match into a suprisingly large number of meta threats at the moment.

I can think of more examples for both and other pokemon, though I will agree that shed tail is pretty stupid.
 
NidoTheKing said:
The doomposting tone is a bad habit of mine that I'm still working out to this day.

Still, it doesn't change what I'm trying to say: The current initial ban list is way too minimal and is easily exploitable in ways that I'm pretty sure nobody wanted to deal with. I wouldn't have a problem with it if some of the choices weren't so unbelievable at first (like Terastalizing or allowing Regieleki + Terapagos with it) or didn't just kill the whole gimmick of the tier by allowing things that would easily warp the meta even without it (the hyper-offense hell of Sneasler, Baxcalibur, etc.).

Maybe we should address the extremely obvious problems before releasing the new OM to the public, yeah?
Click to expand...
I don't agree with Tera being an immediate issue. Let's separate the different categories of how Tera affects passive damage so we can discuss them individually.

Hazards:

I do not see this as an issue, as you effectively give up your capacity to use Tera at a later point to either break a wall or stuff a threat that would sweep you in order to get hazards of a different type now. The utility and flexibility is strong, but I don't think it's overbearing because of the opportunity cost.

As for the argument that it allows you to set hazards of otherwise impossible hazards, the only hazard that can only be set via Tera is Fire-type Spikes, as all other typed hazards either have at least one setter, or in the case of Fairy/Fighting/Flying/Ghost, can be set via Protean followed up by the hazards. For instance, Meowscarada using Play Rough, then Spikes, or Greninja using Aerial Ace, then Spikes.

Status Effects:
(burn/poison/seeded)
I don't see this being a problem either, as it suffers from the same issues as with hazards, and arguably has a smaller impact. Potentially premature Tera usage to change how you deal damage to break through things using passive damage. Leaves you vulnerable later-on because you might have needed Tera to stop their RMoon or their Glisc or smth.

Partial Trapping:
I can see how this would be a lot larger of an issue, but I ultimately think it falls into the same category as Status Effects. The only difference is that the affected pokemon can't just switch out. It could be used to kill any one given pokemon, but that's ultimately no different than Tera in a regular format.
 
Decided to build a Stall Team before the meta releases

https://pokepast.es/9ecc0fe3982274a9
:hydrapple: :clefable: :toxapex: :gliscor: :blissey: :dondozo:

Stall is probably gonna be more common in this meta. Every team is terrified of Knock in this meta (outside of HO builds) and being able to naturally fit multiple Knock absorbers seems very good.

All of these sets are pretty standard and have had success in Gen 9 OU (Hydrapple set had Giga Drain replaced with Infestation) so not much to comment on about them. Will definitely edit this as the Meta develops. Happy stalling! ♥

Edit: NVM will not be using this in early meta where Firepon, Lando-I, and Volc are free lol
 
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