U-Turn does 15% (+25% for Rocks) and then you have to switch out or die to whatever comes in as Marowak is slow af and has easily exploitable weaknesses.
This thing's got to go, most busted mon since mega Khan, perhaps moreso.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Pokémon Pheromosa
- Thread starter Trinitrotoluene
- Start date
- Status
U-Turn does 15% (+25% for Rocks) and then you have to switch out or die to whatever comes in as Marowak is slow af and has easily exploitable weaknesses.
This thing's got to go, most busted mon since mega Khan, perhaps moreso.
Is really Alolan-Marowak OU worthy? Chandelure has the same base typing, but a better stat distribution bar Def.
Ghosts in general could be good check to Pheromosa if they resists Ice, but....
* A-Marowak is not OU for many reasons, including the fact it is outclassed by Chandelure, whose Scarf set could be a nightmare. This pokemon seems usable in OU only because can tank a hit and use WoW in return. That's because Pheromosa is too much for OU.
* Aegislash will leave OU tier because is an Uber
Pheromosa isn't meant for OHKOing pokemon from full HP. This thing is a late game cleaner, when most of its counters and checks are already worn down to the point they can be KOed easily.
In a metagame where you deal with behemoth electric types like Alola Raichu, Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, etc. and Electric Terrain being so common electric immunity is invaluable as you may check those AND ALSO CHECK stuff like Pheromosa or Genesect. So yeah, his unique typing with electric immunity actually fits perfectly metagame right now. So yes, Lightningrod makes a massive difference here.
Alolan-Marowak seems so "strong" because it checks well many UBs, Genesect and Electric Terrain/Volt Switch strategies, but when some pokemons will be banned from OU (Genesect, Pheromosa, Xurkitree, and so on...). I'd like to see how this Marowak would perform in a OU without the broken things it is supposed to counter.
Maybe it will be a C tier monster (due to its useful niche of checking Electrics so well), but no more than this in a healthy OU environment.
Not only ghots are checks (key word:checks) to Pheromosa; Poison, Flying AND Fairy resists Pheromosa STABS (Ice Beam hits Flying and Poison Jab hits Fairy though). That is to show Pheromosa's weak movepool.
That said, always use U-Turn (with some excaptions like Specs), it's fast enough to abuse said move and gain lots of momentum.
A funny move to consider is Me First; it's speedy enough to be first almost all the time, and it can get some surprise KOs like Shadow Ball/Spirit Sackle a ghost poke or something along these lines, though it often doesn't have a slot for it, and is kinda situational.
That said, always use U-Turn (with some excaptions like Specs), it's fast enough to abuse said move and gain lots of momentum.
A funny move to consider is Me First; it's speedy enough to be first almost all the time, and it can get some surprise KOs like Shadow Ball/Spirit Sackle a ghost poke or something along these lines, though it often doesn't have a slot for it, and is kinda situational.
Naughty>Naive on the LO set is super interesting because it hits like a complete fucking truck and only really loses out on outpacing MZam, MAero and a few scarfers. While it can be RK'd without priority due to getting an attack boost>speed boost, it is a much more consistent cleaner with attack boosts because it just murders fucking everything. Like, this thing's utterly disgusting to try to take hits from. Defo slash-worthy.
Edit:
Edit:
Pheromosa @ Life Orb
Ability: Beat Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty / Naive Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- Lunge / Rapid Spin / Poison Jab
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe OR 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head / Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
Ability: Beat Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty / Naive Nature
- U-turn
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Beam
- Lunge / Rapid Spin / Poison Jab
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe OR 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head / Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
This is why I mentioned in this particular metagame as he fits exactly in it like a glove now. He tanks / resists / ignores exactly what he needs to beat. I also suspect that his overall utility will drop once some of new Pokemon get suspected and banned. I mentioned all of this because I can't help but disagree with what he said about Chandelure being better then Marowak-A, which is simply false and he is using present tense while thinking about current meta. Plus with invested EVS in Atk with Thick Club he hits really hard to the point where Chandelure needs Specs to match up similar power level on special side.
this core literally is so perfect for OU lol... the synergy between these 3 mons is insane, only losing to 2 mons (Mantine, Pelipper) in the tier. Even still, both of these mons don't want to constantly switch-in on rocks .-.++
= MOST BROKEN CORE IN EXISTENCE
Basically, there are very few switchins to Phero and all of them (except Mantine) lose to this core. Aegislash? U-Turn to Pursuit Bisharp (no one runs Sacred Sword), Toxapex? U-Turn to BandTrio and trap dat ass etc etc...
Pheromosa may be broken, but is not XY Mega Kangaskhan or Deoxys-N.
Deoxys-N had 150 Atk and SpA... and Psycho Boost, Superpower, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Screens, Stealth Rock, etc. I think it's way more dificult to deal with Deoxys-N than to this. And it isn't Deoxys-A.
High Jump Kick is inmune to Ghost (meaning it isn't spammable) and it's detrimental to use if someone has Protect and friends.
This list of Gen VI pokemon can check it:
-Clefable (Counter if not Poison Jab).
-AV Tornadus-Therian
-AV Heracross with Stone Edge or Mega Heracross with Rock Blast.
-Mega Sableye (Counter)
-Mega Slowbro.
-Talonflame (specially at full HP with Gale Wings).
-Thundurus (Paralyze).
-Azumarill (Hard check).
-Mega Pinsir
-Skarmory with Flying Attack.
-Ammonguss (can sleep it).
-Gengar (Hard check).
-Suicune (Crocune).
-Mega Venusaur (Counter).
-Mega Altaria (Hard check).
-Dragonite @ Extremespeed
-Intimidate Gyarados.
-Klefki with priority Thunder Wave.
-Volcarona (good Spin/Defog support, please).
-Kingdra in Rain.
-Togekiss
-Scolipede with Stone Edge.
And about new things:
-Aegislash (May be broken itself).
-M-Mawile (when GF wants).
-Primarina.
-Ribombee (highly unlikely to be viable).
-Toxapex (very good).
-Araquanid (this things has Water Bubble (×2!!!) BP STAB Liquidation (85 power) and good defenses).
-Silvally with Poison, Flying, Ghost or Fairy Memory. Maybe some of then are OU Viable.
-Mimikyu
-Tapu Koko (very good).
-Tapu Lele (one of his better allies could be one of his biggest enemies, and very good).
-Tapu Fini.
-And Shift Gear Magearna.!!!!
Not all of them are counters, but I think all of them are checks that can take standard Pheromosa at least decently. I found 40 checks to it... something overly broken doesn't have 40 potential checks, and more than half are OU viable right now.
Deoxys-N had 150 Atk and SpA... and Psycho Boost, Superpower, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Screens, Stealth Rock, etc. I think it's way more dificult to deal with Deoxys-N than to this. And it isn't Deoxys-A.
High Jump Kick is inmune to Ghost (meaning it isn't spammable) and it's detrimental to use if someone has Protect and friends.
This list of Gen VI pokemon can check it:
-Clefable (Counter if not Poison Jab).
-AV Tornadus-Therian
-AV Heracross with Stone Edge or Mega Heracross with Rock Blast.
-Mega Sableye (Counter)
-Mega Slowbro.
-Talonflame (specially at full HP with Gale Wings).
-Thundurus (Paralyze).
-Azumarill (Hard check).
-Mega Pinsir
-Skarmory with Flying Attack.
-Ammonguss (can sleep it).
-Gengar (Hard check).
-Suicune (Crocune).
-Mega Venusaur (Counter).
-Mega Altaria (Hard check).
-Dragonite @ Extremespeed
-Intimidate Gyarados.
-Klefki with priority Thunder Wave.
-Volcarona (good Spin/Defog support, please).
-Kingdra in Rain.
-Togekiss
-Scolipede with Stone Edge.
And about new things:
-Aegislash (May be broken itself).
-M-Mawile (when GF wants).
-Primarina.
-Ribombee (highly unlikely to be viable).
-Toxapex (very good).
-Araquanid (this things has Water Bubble (×2!!!) BP STAB Liquidation (85 power) and good defenses).
-Silvally with Poison, Flying, Ghost or Fairy Memory. Maybe some of then are OU Viable.
-Mimikyu
-Tapu Koko (very good).
-Tapu Lele (one of his better allies could be one of his biggest enemies, and very good).
-Tapu Fini.
-And Shift Gear Magearna.!!!!
Not all of them are counters, but I think all of them are checks that can take standard Pheromosa at least decently. I found 40 checks to it... something overly broken doesn't have 40 potential checks, and more than half are OU viable right now.
Last edited:
Except they can't. Sure, a lot of them can take a hit and OHKO Pheromosa back, but that's not a problem for Pheromosa when it can launch off super fast, super strong U-Turn's and avoid taking any damage. It's only real threats are priority attacks and like... Surge Surfer Raichu-A.
Anyway, I absolutely hate this thing but I don't want to see anything (except maybe Zygarde Complete) get banned anytime soon.
Edit: Toxapex deals with it really well and can shrug off U-Turn's/force a standard switch with Baneful Bunker, but again, Pheromosa can pretty easily switch to a counter and come back later.
I can't get behind this sentiment at all. I know the metagame has not fully developed yet, but it actually can't develop properly when you have elephants in the room as big as these. The only logical result to waiting any longer to put these awful little shits on the quick-ban list is a bastardized version of a competitive metagame where everything revolves around the oppressors and their checks. We're Smogon; we're supposed to prevent shit like this from happening, not abide by it.
Well, I'm not opposed to banning it relatively soon, just not yet. It's been 2 days since release and people are already calling for bans, that's ridiculous. The metagame is hardly developed and a lot of people are still subject to shiny new toy syndrome, meaning more hesitance towards using older mons who could counter Pheromosa quite well.
Arcanine for example is an actual counter to Pheromosa. Able to survive 2 Hi Jump Kicks from LO Pheromosa with the right investment and easily kill back with a fire move or ESpeed if it goes for the U-Turn. Also limits Pheromosa from Dugtrio trapping since Arcanine OHKO's with Extremespeed.
Mantine is also capable of stopping Pheromosa thanks to it's new +20 HP, it can switch into any of Pheromosa's attacks and KO back with Air Slash. Nor is it trapped by Duggy.
I understand that 2 counters don't make something unbroken, but it's VERY difficult for pokemon to get unbanned once they're gone. I would like it if we had some time to make a more educated decision on Pheromosa's capabilities before we attempt to send it off to uber's, that's all I'm saying.
Edit: Forgot Mantine is currently unavailable, but I feel like that kind of strengthens my point. The meta we're currently dealing with is a very temporary one, and making bans based on it is short sighted. Unless we plan on retesting every mon we choose to ban until then, it's probably best not to ban any. (Except maybe Zygarde, that thing is absurd)
Last edited:
1st of all Arcanine in general sucks, I remember using defensive Arcanine as my Mega Mawile counter, obviously the thing still got banned and Arcanine became even worse since it's only niche in OU got banned. Also SR exists so Arcanine having the time to switch in is pretty limited and morning sun's not gonna last 50 yrs to take 1000 HJKs.
Personally I don't c why run Duggy with Bisharp + Pheromosa becuz Bisharp covers majority of the counters that Pheromosa has like aegi, +2 Life Orb Knock Off VS Toxapex almost kills it with rocks up. Duggy has to use a CB to at least 2HKO Toxapex otherwise Toxapex just wins 1v1 and Aegislash can just freely escape out of arena trap due to its ghost typing. In my opinion, I'd rather just use Pheromosa + Bisharp then the rest of the team that benefits from those mons or covers some minor stuff that they miss like mantine/peligod.
Because you can't run SD and Pursuit on the same set
(well, you can, you just shouldn't)
I was just doing some calcs with a basic LO special set (Focus Blast, Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, U-Turn) only to prove some "OU checks" (remember that Pheromosa outspeeds them all) and:
(Dugtrio is Pheromosa with correct typing and stats)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 634-749 (165.9 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 608-717 (145.8 - 171.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde (50% stage, used for the SubCoil set): 395-468 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 242-289 (61.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Slowking is a shaby check even with high SpD + AV)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 237-281 (63.3 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 216-255 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (a little prior damage turns this into a clean OHKO)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 393-463 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pheromosa doesn't have to KO pokemons from full; it is the best cleaner we have had from a long time. If you see a check to her, just U-Turn out or manually switch-it.
(Dugtrio is Pheromosa with correct typing and stats)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 634-749 (165.9 - 196%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 608-717 (145.8 - 171.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 200 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde (50% stage, used for the SubCoil set): 395-468 (97 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 242-289 (61.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (AV Slowking is a shaby check even with high SpD + AV)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 237-281 (63.3 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 216-255 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (a little prior damage turns this into a clean OHKO)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 393-463 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (lol)
252 SpA Life Orb Dugtrio Ice Beam vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 195-231 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pheromosa doesn't have to KO pokemons from full; it is the best cleaner we have had from a long time. If you see a check to her, just U-Turn out or manually switch-it.
None of those are checks that you should be using. I fail to understand why you even consider them in the first place. For example, Slowbro, Slowking are PSYCHIC type and you're using them to check a BUG type? WTH? And using 4x weak to Ice mons to check sth whose coverage consists of 2 moves: ICE Beam and Poison Jab is just dumb.
Viable checks and some counters atm include: Toxapex, Aegislash, Alolan Marowak, Mantine, Pelliper, Cofagrigus, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Tentacruel, Buzzwole
Because Slowbro, M-Slowbro and Slowking were include into Eievui-Nymphia's list of 40 checks&counters above.
I included 4x monsters weak to Ice to show the general utility of running Ice Beam in every set.
I also want to show that Pheromosa has even a special set, even though it is inferior to the mixed one because lacks a fast U-Turn (which is enough to deal with Slowbro, M-Slowbro and Slowking).
Last edited:
Quote that person next time, wont ya?
If
If Pheromosa uses U-turn, it will be forced to switch. However, I admit: Slowbro and Slowking are not good checks to it (Mega Slowbro still is).
In general, right now, unless the Pokemon is overly broken (like an Ubers in literally OU) it should wait until the meta stabilizes and old Pokemon, including many potential checks appear. If with even those, Pheromosa is broken, then it should be banned. If it may broken, it would be the first formal suspect test.
And for the record, I didn't include Landorus-Therian or Gliscor as a check. Because I know they're destroyed by Ice Beam. And I didn't put Salazzle because its frailty.
Right now there's 35 checks after I eliminated some borderline cases. Some of them are full counters, some of them are hard checks, some of them are checks only if certain criteria is met (example: Skarmory needs a Flying move to be a check).
If Pheromosa uses U-turn, it will be forced to switch. However, I admit: Slowbro and Slowking are not good checks to it (Mega Slowbro still is).
In general, right now, unless the Pokemon is overly broken (like an Ubers in literally OU) it should wait until the meta stabilizes and old Pokemon, including many potential checks appear. If with even those, Pheromosa is broken, then it should be banned. If it may broken, it would be the first formal suspect test.
And for the record, I didn't include Landorus-Therian or Gliscor as a check. Because I know they're destroyed by Ice Beam. And I didn't put Salazzle because its frailty.
Right now there's 35 checks after I eliminated some borderline cases. Some of them are full counters, some of them are hard checks, some of them are checks only if certain criteria is met (example: Skarmory needs a Flying move to be a check).
Last edited:
++= MOST BROKEN CORE IN EXISTENCE
Basically, there are very few switchins to Phero and all of them (except Mantine) lose to this core. Aegislash? U-Turn to Pursuit Bisharp (no one runs Sacred Sword), Toxapex? U-Turn to BandTrio and trap dat ass etc etc...
Talonflame @ Flying Gem
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Acrobatics
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
Without Flying gem... with Flying gem it's a bigger 1 hit.
252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 1120-1324 (395.7 - 467.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 288-338 (106.2 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alola-Dugtrio: 492-582 (233.1 - 275.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 492-582 (233.1 - 275.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 113-133 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Flying Gem Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 146-172 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only one who can kill Talonflame outright is Dugtrio, and only if Dugtrio goes first which is impossible.
252 Atk Dugtrio Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 360-428 (121.2 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 162-192 (54.5 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dugtrio Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 93-110 (31.3 - 37%) -- 78.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Flare Blitz (Me First) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 192-227 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Edit: It can't switch in, but it can revenge kill and check + kill anything in this core.
Last edited:
I run Pursuit on Aegislash since it's still OU atm ._.
Do u know Gale Wings got nerfed and SR exists and dat no1 would like their Pheromosa to stay in on a talonflame on full hp with gale wings ._.?
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status