Basically here discuss the still debated discussion about Phione's placement.
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Phione - metagame placement
- Thread starter Semicolon cancer
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30259
That relates to them in UU, but the conclusion I reached means that Phione would be uber because Manaphy is uber. Now obviously Phione and male Combee are special cases, but they are still pre-evos that aren't distinct from their fully-evolved counterparts.
That relates to them in UU, but the conclusion I reached means that Phione would be uber because Manaphy is uber. Now obviously Phione and male Combee are special cases, but they are still pre-evos that aren't distinct from their fully-evolved counterparts.
for some reason wynaut IS uber.
Because it has the same trait as Wobbuffet.
That being said, Porygon-Z is OU and Porygon 2 is BL. So Obi's argument is invalid. You can't say that Phione and Manaphy are even remotely similar. One has Tail Glow, one is more or less a generic water type.
Male Combee should be NU.
That being said, Porygon-Z is OU and Porygon 2 is BL. So Obi's argument is invalid. You can't say that Phione and Manaphy are even remotely similar. One has Tail Glow, one is more or less a generic water type.
Male Combee should be NU.
phione is pretty diferent from manaphy, and wynat from wobby.
Porygon2 has better defenses and a unique ability from PorygonZ. Phione has absolutely nothing on Manaphy. I specifically said distinct Pokemon. This means things like Scyther, Vigoroth, Pikachu, Clamperl, Porygon2, and the like get their own tier placements because they have some advantage over their FE counterpart.
Wynaut and Phione are not completely different from Wobbuffet and Manaphy. Name one thing the former can do that the latter cannot. Being worse doesn't count for distinctness.
Wynaut and Phione are not completely different from Wobbuffet and Manaphy. Name one thing the former can do that the latter cannot. Being worse doesn't count for distinctness.
Yet they've all ended up in lower tiers than their fully-evolved counterparts. Thus, no advantage, as you put it, or else they'd be the same/higher. Phione by no means has an advantage over Manaphy, and, in fact, it can be argued that it is its own species. There is no possible way for Phione to become a Manaphy and, unlike male Combee, it has its own pokedex number. Nidoqueen can produce Nidoran (male) offspring, yet it is never argued that those two are their own species.
but should we not only ban what overpowers the metagame? i dont think anyone beleves that wynut/phione would overpower the OU metagame, hell the would be borerline UU's. say for examle that... bronzong had an evolution, in the next genaration or this, that could wall 98% of the OU metagame and was far to overcentriseing. it would be sent to ubers, but what about bronzong? should we ban him too? simply because there is a better vertion of him that is too powerful, even if he is not at all overpowerd. i can see half a reason for keeping the NFE's out of UU, some people think it would make UU too similer to OU but i dont think that arguement works for wynat and phione
thats why i added the "in the next generation or this" so what would we do if it has an evo? or say electrobuzz never got an evo, it would have stayed UU, even though it has the same power it is and OU. this makes no sence to me.
I agree. How can someone say Phione is not distinct from it's fully evolved counterpart, when it doesn't even have one? (Meaning it does not evolve into Manaphy).
Because it's base stats/ability/typing/movepool are all equal or inferior in some way to Manaphy, with not a single exception. It isn't even in a lower weight tier (COULD'VE been a ridiculous and idiotic advantage that many NFE's have, but not Phione!) It's a unique situation though, and probably requires a unique ruling.
It lacks tail glow and heart swap. It's stats are not enough to take full advantage of Hydration. I see no reason for it to be uber. Its basically a Glalie without explosion and better typing.
What does it being a lower form of manaphy have to do with it's tiering?
Does the egg it hatched from somehow make it magically better than salamence/tyranitar/metagross/blissey/ect?
What does it being a lower form of manaphy have to do with it's tiering?
Does the egg it hatched from somehow make it magically better than salamence/tyranitar/metagross/blissey/ect?
Yes, but the "loophole" is that it does not evolve into Manaphy. If it in fact did then I would agree with it's placement, but as you can see it does not evolve into Manaphy.
Since it is a unique case like you mentioned, it requires a unique ruling.
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It's not the lower form of Manaphy however, please go read the "NFE" and the BL/UU" thread because your misinformed about other situations that result in a pokemon being banned/allowed/etc
who cares?? there are better pokemon in BL and UU than this, and i see no way it could be placed in NU. so no matter where it goes it will be pretty useless.
smogon cares, we try not to ban things that dont need baning. and if its so bad and will not get much use even in UU then why put it in ubers? it is nonsencial
If I understand correctly (Which I may not, I've only been around here for a short time) a pokemon is tiered according to it's usage and if it's to powerful for UU it is placed in BL. Ubers are banned because their power would over centralize the game. Pre-evolved pokemon (Which Phione is not) are counted as their evolved counterpart unless it plays differently (Scyther/Scizor) to avoid the UU tier becoming a pre-evolved version of OU.
Now, Phione's power is not game breaking at all. I'm pretty sure it plays very differently from Manaphy aswell. Manaphy sets normally use tail-glow to boost special attack and rain/rest off the damage. Or they abuse rain/rest to try and play defensivley. Phione lacks tail-glow and it's defensive stats are not enough to use rain/rest. Heck, both Salamence and Garchomp have better defense and they are thought of as offensive.
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