Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

[QuentinQuonce]

i think so many of my opinions on discussions this sub-forum had recently (level scaling, HMs/field moves, TMs etc) warp back to me wishing the badges were as relevant mechanically as they are in lore. like, they Should be doing something beyond being glorified checkpoints (which they do in the pre-alola games by unlocking field moves!)

alola found a way to make trials and grand trials feel important and you just get z-crystals you don't always use, so gym badges can definitely feel that way too, and even better since you can avoid the literal checkpoints alola had.

Contrariwise, I'm incredibly glad Gen IV did away with the stat/type boosts each badge conferred in previous games. Neat as they were to read about in the game manuals, I'm always kind of "meh" on any boost that's only relevant in the main campaign and tbh with how much easier the games have been steadily getting further advantages are really not necessary.

But yeah it would be good for badges to feel a bit more meaningful. Obedience is fine (and if we're going to have open world games it should be done properly and be based on the number of badges, not the badges themselves) but I actually think it'd be really cool if they returned to that concept of signature/secret techniques - have the TMs gym leaders give out contain moves that no Pokemon (or very few) learn on their own and be explicit that some/all of these moves are created by them. It'd be a thematic callback to HMs in a way as well as the earlier games since it's "a move you can't use until this particular gym leader is defeated".

 

[Sixfortyfive]

i think so many of my opinions on discussions this sub-forum had recently (level scaling, HMs/field moves, TMs etc) warp back to me wishing the badges were as relevant mechanically as they are in lore. like, they Should be doing something beyond being glorified checkpoints (which they do in the pre-alola games by unlocking field moves!)

alola found a way to make trials and grand trials feel important and you just get z-crystals you don't always use, so gym badges can definitely feel that way too, and even better since you can avoid the literal checkpoints alola had.

I can agree with this.

One of my now-25-year-old playthroughs of RBY stuck with me for the fact that I actually got stopped cold by the Thunder Badge guard on Victory Road because I just... forgot to fight Lt Surge. And since Kanto is laid out in such a way that you don't really need to use Fly to backtrack on the intended quest route, being locked out of Fly because I lacked the badge was something that just never came up.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I can agree with this.

One of my now-25-year-old playthroughs of RBY stuck with me for the fact that I actually got stopped cold by the Thunder Badge guard on Victory Road because I just... forgot to fight Lt Surge. And since Kanto is laid out in such a way that you don't really need to use Fly to backtrack on the intended quest route, being locked out of Fly because I lacked the badge was something that just never came up.

Honestly this is one of the more charming aspects of the older games to me: the way you could just miss things like this and not have them come up until they absolutely needed to.

Like, in RSE, it's perfectly possible to skip Brawly and not challenge him until after you've beaten Flannery: there's definitely been at least one occasion replaying RSE on which I've done just that, forgotten to challenge him, and returned to Petalburg only for Norman to refuse to battle me because I've only got three badges. I disliked how ORAS made it utterly impossible to skip either Brawly or Winona: even if you did somehow forget, there'd be an NPC who'd say "hold up, you can't go any further! Why don't you go and challenge the nearby gym?" Mind your own fucking business, that's why not.

It's one of the smaller things I appreciate about FRLG: that they didn't add any checkpoints or broken bridges to force you to do the gyms in a specific order. While HGSS made a bunch of small tweaks to the story that ensured you played "correctly", like forcing you to complete Sprout Tower and requiring you to collect HM07 in Ice Path to progress, these are largely not so in-your-face that they spoiled the experience for me. But ORAS went way too far on the railroading front - the Brawly tweak is at least forgiveable because it's somewhat-interestingly done and story-required, but the Winona tweak is just downright obnoxious.

 

[Axiemeister]

kanto's openness feels so... current nowadays. the rocket subplot and the gyms are entirely disconnected until the final gym in which they have a Reason to be connected, and maybe that actually influenced how SV goes about things

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Typhlosion not getting Earth Power. It's a volcano Pokemon, what gives? And it already gets Earthquake.

...if frickin' Sunflora can get it...

 

[Axiemeister]

Typhlosion not getting Earth Power. It's a volcano Pokemon, what gives? And it already gets Earthquake.

...if frickin' Sunflora can get it...

you see, gamefreak is just worried (*gives draining kiss to spectrier/calyrex-s*) that good (*gives regieleki access to boltbeam coverage via tera*) coverage (*makes ground/rock nearly unresisted and easily accessible by most ground AND rock types since gen 1*) could break (*creates marshadow, flutter mane and gouging fire*) typhlosion. they just totally care about balance i swearpromisevow.

 

[Castersvarog]

Typhlosion not getting Earth Power. It's a volcano Pokemon, what gives? And it already gets Earthquake.

...if frickin' Sunflora can get it...

Speaking of earth power, why in gods name isn’t it the grass type equivalent to ice beam on water types?

Like I can get not giving it to all grass types just to not make things so homogeneous in the type, but like surely more then 12 grass types, 3 of which are part ground or rock btw, should be able to learn the move. Would be great for Mons like sceptile, Lilligant or like 90% of mono grass types so they can have actual coverage.

 

[Just A Seaking]

Typhlosion not getting Earth Power. It's a volcano Pokemon, what gives? And it already gets Earthquake.

...if frickin' Sunflora can get it...

To go a step further - why don't the volcano Pokemon (which I'd qualify as the Magmar line, Moltres, the Cyndaquil line, the Slugma line, Entei, the Numel line, Groudon, and Heatran) learn Discharge? Volcanic lightning is a real phenomenon, and I don't think any of these Pokemon would be particularly broken (or in Groudon and Heatran's case, any more broken) with Electric coverage - the Cyndaquil line even has precedent in that it learns Thunder Punch. It'd be a fun way to give these 'mons more coverage options in a flavorful way.

 

[CPU]

To go a step further - why don't the volcano Pokemon (which I'd qualify as the Magmar line, Moltres, the Cyndaquil line, the Slugma line, Entei, the Numel line, Groudon, and Heatran) learn Discharge? Volcanic lightning is a real phenomenon, and I don't think any of these Pokemon would be particularly broken (or in Groudon and Heatran's case, any more broken) with Electric coverage - the Cyndaquil line even has precedent in that it learns Thunder Punch. It'd be a fun way to give these 'mons more coverage options in a flavorful way.

Given the flavor, I think Thunder specifically would be better thematically. Ignore the wording in the article; any release of electrical charge is a "discharge."

 

[Just A Seaking]

Given the flavor, I think Thunder specifically would be better thematically. Ignore the wording in the article; any release of electrical charge is a "discharge."

This is what I get for skimming the article! My gut feeling is that Thunder clashes in a way, given how strongly associated it is with rain and rainstorms specifically in Pokemon, but there's no reason that association can't be changed or challenged.

What made me think of Discharge specifically isn't just the name, but also the way the electricity spreads out from the user instead of being 'cast' onto the target - reminded me visually of an eruption. But you're right: in terms of accurately reflecting the irl phenomenon of volcanic lightning, Thunder's more accurate.

Another thing I forgot: Magmortar doesn't learn Discharge, but it does already get Thunder Punch and Thunderbolt. Thunder Punch makes sense given the Electabuzz association, but Electivire doesn't get Flamethrower, so any Electric moves on it are already justified more by the cannon.

 

[CPU]

Another thing I forgot: Magmortar doesn't learn Discharge, but it does already get Thunder Punch and Thunderbolt. Thunder Punch makes sense given the Electabuzz association, but Electivire doesn't get Flamethrower, so any Electric moves on it are already justified more by the cannon.

I hate to be "that guy," but Electivire does get Flamethrower. It's been able to learn it since Gen 4, actually!

Magmar and Electabuzz can't learn Thunderbolt/Flamethrower respectively, but they can learn Thunder Punch/Fire Punch.

 

[Just A Seaking]

I hate to be "that guy," but Electivire does get Flamethrower. It's been able to learn it since Gen 4, actually!

Magmar and Electabuzz can't learn Thunderbolt/Flamethrower respectively, but they can learn Thunder Punch/Fire Punch.

Damn, I literally checked Electivire's Bulbapedia page just to be absolutely sure that I wasn't forgetting anything. And I still missed it!

In my defense, I don't think you ever want to click Flamethrower on Electivire anyways outside of in-game, but still, my bad

 

[pika pal]

The natural learners for Body Press, those being Probopass, Regigigas, and Raging Bolt.

Gigas I sort of get since it's just a big beefy body type of mon (though it also reminds me Slow Start kneecaps THIS too), but Probopass is a bit odd to me in terms of flavor considering that, while heavy among rock types, its magnetic floating makes it seem hard for it to direct that weight the same way as generally large mons would do. Raging Bolt similarly seems odd to me given its basis in the Brontosaurus, which seems poorly suited to body slams vs something like Stomps or such.

It's weird because Body Press is such a broadly defined/described move that it's more weird for how few things have it than what has it, but even then the 3 natural learners feel like slightly odd choices.

 

[R_N]

Burn up! It is fully usable in SV, complete animation and everything. Of the 7 families that can learn it, 6 of them are in SV. Even has an electric variant (Physical, 10 BP less) of it that Pawmot has.

Despite this absolutely no Pokemon can learn Burn Up in SV. Even if they were inexplicably worried about the tera interaction (if you use it [or double shock] while terastalzied, as Fire [/Electric] you can keep using it) just seems like something they could limit to the especially mediocre Pokemon or Ho-Oh (since its legendary so it gets extra privileges).

e: I don't think even Smeargle can sketch it, since if you try to sketch metronome I think it either fails or just sketches metronome proper.

 

[AztecCroc]

Burn up! It is fully usable in SV, complete animation and everything. Of the 7 families that can learn it, 6 of them are in SV. Even has an electric variant (Physical, 10 BP less) of it that Pawmot has.

Despite this absolutely no Pokemon can learn Burn Up in SV. Even if they were inexplicably worried about the tera interaction (if you use it [or double shock] while terastalzied, as Fire [/Electric] you can keep using it) just seems like something they could limit to the especially mediocre Pokemon or Ho-Oh (since its legendary so it gets extra privileges).

e: I don't think even Smeargle can sketch it, since if you try to sketch metronome I think it either fails or just sketches metronome proper.

It's because they some how managed to introduce a bug that causes the game to crash if you check the details screen of a typeless Pokémon, and that could potentially be any of them but Ho-oh, Moltres, and Hisuian Typhlosion.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

It's because they some how managed to introduce a bug that causes the game to crash if you check the details screen of a typeless Pokémon, and that could potentially be any of them but Ho-oh, Moltres, and Hisuian Typhlosion.

The best kind of bug "fixes."

Like how Spinda can't be transferred to or from BDSP because they mistakenly inverted the way its spot patterns are determined in that game.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It's because they some how managed to introduce a bug that causes the game to crash if you check the details screen of a typeless Pokémon, and that could potentially be any of them but Ho-oh, Moltres, and Hisuian Typhlosion.

The best kind of bug "fixes."

Like how Spinda can't be transferred to or from BDSP because they mistakenly inverted the way its spot patterns are determined in that game.

Now I wonder if the Double Shock Tera interaction wasn't planned from the start and was only thrown in to bypass that bug.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Yanmega learns a noteworthy amount of Dark-type moves, likely due to its rather menacing nature (Night Slash, Crunch, Thief, Pursuit) and has a generally broad learnset in terms of coverage options such as Psychic, Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, Ancientpower, Ominous Wind, Dream Eater, and Reversal.

Why, then, does it not get Dark Pulse?

 

[AztecCroc]

Yanmega learns a noteworthy amount of Dark-type moves, likely due to its rather menacing nature (Night Slash, Crunch, Thief, Pursuit) and has a generally broad learnset in terms of coverage options such as Psychic, Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, Ancientpower, Ominous Wind, Dream Eater, and Reversal.

Why, then, does it not get Dark Pulse?

It gets the moves it gets for flavor purposes. Most of the Dark moves it gets are there because it's fast or because it's a dragonfly. Ancient Power is there for evolution purposes, all Flying types that were in gen 4 learn Ominous Wind, all Bug types that were in gen 3 get Dream Eater, all pre-gen 7 Bugs get Giga Drain, all Specially oriented Bugs from the first 4 gens get Psychic. Nearly everything fully evolved from the first couple gens gets Shadow Ball.

Most of Yanmega's wide movepool comes from being fairly old and Yanma being older.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

It gets the moves it gets for flavor purposes. Most of the Dark moves it gets are there because it's fast or because it's a dragonfly. Ancient Power is there for evolution purposes, all Flying types that were in gen 4 learn Ominous Wind, all Bug types that were in gen 3 get Dream Eater, all pre-gen 7 Bugs get Giga Drain, all Specially oriented Bugs from the first 4 gens get Psychic. Nearly everything fully evolved from the first couple gens gets Shadow Ball.

Most of Yanmega's wide movepool comes from being fairly old and Yanma being older.

Okay, but that doesn't explain specifically why it should be unable to learn Dark Pulse, particularly when you look at some of the less-obvious Pokemon which do such as Wigglytuff, Gyarados, Gligar, Trubbish, Litleo, Clauncher, and Helioptile.

For a Pokemon whose classification is the "Ogre Darner", I'd have thought "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts" would be well within its capability.

 

[LonelyGaruga]

The only Bug types that get Dark Pulse are Skorupi (evolves into a Dark type), Genesect (probably tied to its cannon), and Golisopod, so I'm gonna interpret this as a matter of insects having a limited capacity for higher thinking. By and large, they are not capable of thoughts of malice or ill intent.

Oh and Lokix also gets it, which is Dark type. Not Nymble, though.

 

[AztecCroc]

Okay, but that doesn't explain specifically why it should be unable to learn Dark Pulse, particularly when you look at some of the less-obvious Pokemon which do such as Wigglytuff, Gyarados, Gligar, Trubbish, Litleo, Clauncher, and Helioptile.

Gyarados is basically violence and rage incarnate and also a Dark type in Mega form.
Clauncher has Mega Launcher and thus gets all appropriate moves by default.
Trubbish is composed of trash, of course it has negative thoughts in spades.
Gligar evolves at night specifically.
Wigglytuff, Litleo, and Helioptile are pre-gen 8 Normal types they have unnecessarily wide move pools as a matter of course.

For a Pokemon whose classification is the "Ogre Darner", I'd have thought "The user releases a horrible aura imbued with dark thoughts" would be well within its capability.

"Ogre Darner" has nothing to do with actual ogres. Darner is a word meaning large dragonfly, used instead of the literal term Ogre Dragonfly because of length limitations of dex categories back in the day (Ogre Darner itself barely fit). And the Ogre part is itself not literally referring to ogres but to the onyanma known in English as the gold-ringed dragonfly the largest species of dragonfly in Japan. Zero relation to actual ogres.

 

[BIG ASHLEY]

yanmega doesn't learn dark pulse because it is too friendly and nice :D

 

[CPU]

Wigglytuff, Litleo, and Helioptile are pre-gen 8 Normal types they have unnecessarily wide move pools as a matter of course.

Wigglytuff, sure, but Litleo/Pyroar wish they had a Gen 1 Normal-type's movepool. Dark Pulse is about the only meaningful coverage they get (disclaimer: I'm not sure what all they have in Gen 9, I'm going off of memory here, and memory tells me they have a respectable-but-not-amazing physical movepool that doesn't mesh super well with their higher Special Attack stat. I'm specifically saying Dark Pulse is the only meaningful Special coverage they get. Solar Beam is nice, but is necessarily conditional). My personal take is that they get Dark Pulse because lions are apex predators... and maybe it's a joke relating to Lysandre? IDK

Helioptile/Heliolisk are a bit of a stranger case. They do have a rather respectable movepool, but it generally fits their theming as desert-dwelling, solar powered reptiles (and Surf and Glare because apparently they're inspired by basilisk lizards as much as frilled lizards). Dark Pulse is pretty bizarre, considering everything else, but I personally find it funnier that the line with a clear solar theming in name only gets Solar Power as a hidden ability (while having abilities that energize with Rain and Sand as normal abilities), and that it took them until Gen 9(?) to get Solar Beam (maybe they got it sooner but I know they didn't have it in Gen 6).

 

[Cool Baton]

Pain split is learned by Keldeo, Rampardos, Alomomola, Passimian, Clobbopus, Stunfisk, Chesnaught, and a few other odd choices. I always thought the justification for who got it was that the mon has some magical or supernatural powers since plenty of ghosts, psychics, and fairies gets it. But some mons that get it don't really show that. I see some mons like Stunfisk, Chesnaught and Qwilfish having it cause they seem painful to touch so when they get damaged, their opponent also gets hurt. I guess some fighting types get it for the same reason why Revenge is a fighting type move, but if thats the case, shouldn't a lot more fighting types get it. And I cant think of explanations for real weird choices like Alomomola and Rampardos. Am I looking at the move wrong or something

Apologies in advance if I'm replying to something from too far in the past - new to posting in the forum so still getting a handle on the rules!

With Pain Split, it seems to be a literal translation from the Japanese name, "itamiwake". The thing is, while "itamiwake" can literally be translated as "to share pain", the phrase is specifically a sumo wrestling term. It refers to calling a draw on a wrestling match because one player is too injured to continue. (It's also an outdated practice - in modern sumo, a major injury would just be a forfeit.) This loosely makes sense with the effect of the move: one Pokemon is injured more badly than the other, so the two combatants "call a draw" by equalizing their HP.

With that context, the scattered distribution makes sense. You see it on Psychics and Ghosts based on the literal definition of the word — "sharing pain" works with psychic empathic powers and ghostly affinity for pain. You see it on Fighting Pokemon and other physical brawlers because of the martial origins of the term. And any other Pokemon can be given it on the basis that, ultimately, all Pokemon are engaging in a combat sport themselves.