Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

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Spenstar said:
What are the benefits to evolving Doublade instead of just giving it the eviolite?
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Better offenses in offensive stance, the ability to run special attacks, better speed, softening physical blows for itself and other teammates with King's Shield. I think the main attraction is better Special Defense; with Eviolite, Doublade's SpDef is only about 75 whereas Aegislash's is twice that in Def Stance. My Aegislash took quite a few strong special hits in its time that I suspect would have KO'd it as Doublade, eviolite or no. So I guess that's the main one.

The main attraction of Doublade is that it's more 'ergonomic'-- IE, it's slightly easier to use without having to rely on King's Shield to take hits, you can just SD and attack. With Aegislash you just need to think more.

IMO, either is a viable option though.
 
It's possible. They actually do play pretty differently.
I don't know if this'd factor into their tiering at all, but Dusk Stones DO come pretty late in the game, and are kind of a pain to find (unless you get a Dusk Stone via Super Training, and I'm not sure if that should be a factor or not). If Aegislash and Doublade are counted together, then this probably doesn't matter, since Doublade handles itself fine until it gets to evolve.

Aegislash also basically NEEDS a heart scale to remember King's Shield, too, where Doublade can rely almost solely on levelup moves + Shadow Claw TM.

EDIT: Im'na do one more. Maybe a few extras later.
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Lapras: - B Tier
Availability: Mid-game, Route 12 immediately after receiving Surf. Convenient eh?
Stats: Great bulk and good offenses on both sides, enough to go mixed if you like.
Typing: Water/Ice maybe not the best defensively, but against all but the strongest attackers Lapras doesn't care bcuz bulk. Offensively, its STABs are quite useful.
Movepool: Learns Ice Beam almost immediately, which is great since with almost any other Water-type you have to wait until Wulfric (plus Lapras gets STAB). Later it'll get Tbolt and Psychic, plus Bulldoze and Body Slam are great on the physical side of things. Lapras has a phenomenal support movepool, getting Strength/Surf/Rock Smash/Waterfall-- basically, everything but Cut and Fly.
Major Battles: Tread carefully in Ramos' Gym; Lapras' typing is a double-edged sword there. Can Bulldoze Clemont, but is better off avoiding him. Does fine against Valerie and Olympia with its great special bulk, but doesn't have any particularly one-sidedly favorable matchups with gym leaders. Good against all 4 of the E4 with Surf for Malva & Wikstrom, Tbolt for Siebold, and Ice Beam for Drasna (watch out for Druddigon). Can hit all of Diantha's Pokemon SE except Megavoir, but risks SE attacks from most of them, so is unlikely to solo her without a lot of healing.
Additional Comments: I didn't actually use Lapras in battle, I just had it as a utility Pokemon, but my GF used hers and it served her very well. Ergo, it's very useful whether you're battling with it, using it just for its HM movepool, or even both! It's not incredibly powerful, but Sitrus/Lefties as recovery and good tanking capabilities make it a solid choice.
 
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Banryu said:
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Lapras: - B Tier
Availability: Mid-game, Route 12 immediately after receiving Surf. Convenient eh?
Stats: Great bulk and good offenses on both sides, enough to go mixed if you like.
Typing: Water/Ice maybe not the best defensively, but against all but the strongest attackers Lapras doesn't care bcuz bulk. Offensively, its STABs are quite useful.
Movepool: Learns Ice Beam almost immediately, which is great since with almost any other Water-type you have to wait until Wulfric (plus Lapras gets STAB). Later it'll get Tbolt and Psychic, plus Bulldoze and Body Slam are great on the physical side of things. Lapras has a phenomenal support movepool, getting Strength/Surf/Rock Smash/Waterfall-- basically, everything but Cut and Fly.
Major Battles: Tread carefully in Ramos' Gym; Lapras' typing is a double-edged sword there. Can Bulldoze Clemont, but is better off avoiding him. Does fine against Valerie and Olympia with its great special bulk, but doesn't have any particularly one-sidedly favorable matchups with gym leaders. Good against all 4 of the E4 with Surf for Malva & Wikstrom, Tbolt for Siebold, and Ice Beam for Drasna (watch out for Druddigon). Can hit all of Diantha's Pokemon SE except Megavoir, but risks SE attacks from most of them, so is unlikely to solo her without a lot of healing.
Additional Comments: I didn't actually use Lapras in battle, I just had it as a utility Pokemon, but my GF used hers and it served her very well. Ergo, it's very useful whether you're battling with it, using it just for its HM movepool, or even both! It's not incredibly powerful, but Sitrus/Lefties as recovery and good tanking capabilities make it a solid choice.
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I agree. I'm quite on the fence between A or B tier. Boltbeam coverage after Clemont is amazing. Its main downsides are an average Speed and good-but-not great offensive stats, specially in a game with so many powerhouses available. It is a great choice actually, so A/B tier.
 
Did you REALLY have trouble using it?? Personally, I ran Honedge and it blazed through just about everything that I cared to send it against, whether or not it was evolved-- the fact that it evolved to Doublade so much didn't bother me in the least because it was still pulling its weight. Maybe it's slow, but its resistances, defenses, and offenses are good enough to make it not really matter. I guess it could be bumped down to A-tier, but if you want to compare it to Magnemite in BW2, I'd say it definitely stacks up-- especially after Eviolite, which makes Doublade into a hardass tank (I even regretted evolving mine into Aegislash for a little while). Whether or not it evolves late or can outspeed things is merely incidental IMO as long as it does its job.
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Speed is literally everything.

In an efficient playthrough, if you are the first to act and KO, you are infinitely better than a Pokemon that KOes after the enemy Pokemon moves.

Let's look at RBY Snorlax. It certainly was far from a terrible Pokemon. It came at roughly the same level as the rest of your team and was able to learn a variety of attacks. It was the premier way of nuking someone off the planet. And once it learned Hyper Beam? You were practically knocking things around. And taking damage? Rest + Pokeflute to the rescue.

Yet despite all of those things, it still landed lower in the tiers. Why that is - simply because it is slow. Speed is everything in Pokemon. Being able to take a hit and KO is also important, but if you're playing sluggish and moving second, you are also:

- taking damage, which means Potions and the like must be used
- possibly taking a status move, which means possible fuck-ups
- stat lowering, which can possibly affect OHKOes or even 2HKOes

Yeah sure, Aegislash and its prevos are sturdy, but the fact that they're slow as fuck does not completely justify it.
As for Venoshock, I think you're overlooking just how EARLY in the game you get it. You're mentioning Megavolution for it when it comes right after the first gym-- a 65 BP STAB, with or without the boost from the opponent being poisoned, is nothing to sneeze at. In fact, I didn't even bother running Poisonpowder on my Ivysaur (Venoshock/Razor Leaf/Nature Power/Sleep Powder was what I ran for most of the early-midgame), and he did just fine smashing things with Venoshock until Toxic and later Sludge Bomb became available. It's not such an attractive option when you finally evolve to Venusaur, since you're kind of craving a stronger STAB by that point, but it does great for Ivysaur in the early-midgame.
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You sort of missed my point, but you caught on anyway.

The deal is that using PoisonPowder isn't worth it for the extra boost on Venoshock. The only time is maybe rare occasions (Sawk comes to mind mainly due to Sturdy but I doubt you will OHKO it anyway). By missing PoisonPowder, you might as well compare that as similar to using a Mega Evolution (which has a cost time-wise).
 
Stellar said:
Are Doublade and Aegislash disparate enough to warrant separate entries?
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After some deliberation on IRC, I am tentatively going to do this since they both play differently & have enough differences to tentatively warrant one (Aegislash has Stance Change & +25 Base Speed, but requires going through Terminus Cave to get one, Doublade is very tanky with Eviolite, but is very slow (Base 35 Speed) and does not hit as hard), but if both end up in the same tier at the end, then the two are very likely to be merged.

That said, I would like to say that B2W2 Magnemite is a decent benchmark for S-Tiering for this list, & is the kind of Pokémon I had in mind for it as well. It has a solid matchup against most trainers in the game, & solid offensive game, but middling speed, etc. It is pretty much an ideal benchmark, & people are willing to do that.

Also, I am going to tentatively move both Doublade & Aegislash into Limbo between A-Tier & S-Tier. Speed is critical to tiering, & being slow, it means you are more likely to use potions, etc, on both to help them solo trainer y. They do however have bulk & great match-ups that help their cause. That said, I am not fully convinced that both are S-Tier any more, but I am not fully convinced that both are A-Tier either.

Carry on.
 
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Aromatisse: B tier, possibly A
Availability: Route 7, as a Spritzee
Stats: 101 / 72 / 72 / 99 / 89 / 29

A very passable 101/72/89 bulk coupled with 99 Special Attack; not only can it tank attacks, but also can dish out some damage as well. The only real downside is its paltry speed ticking at 29, even slower than Slowbro. However with her movepool, it more than makes up for the damage it takes in the form of a good HP draining attack (Draining Kiss).

Typing:
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It lends useful resistances to Fighting, Dark, Bug, and boasts an immunity to Dragon. Its weaknesses, Poison and Steel are quite uncommon throughout the game and thus, isn't as big of a problem.

Movepool:

She gains useful moves by level-up alone in the form of Calm Mind, Draining Kiss, and Aromatherapy which is all achieved in late 10's to mid 20's. With this, she gains a boosting buff to her decent Special Attack and when used in tandem with Draining Kiss, creates an effective damage-dealing recovery move. Other than those though, I think there aren't any moves worth mentioning aside from Moonblast, Psychic, and Reflect which she gets quite late already. Now, speaking of her TM moves, it isn't too shabby as well. Some of them there are Charge Beam, Toxic, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, Psyshock, Flash Cannon, and Light Screen. Seeing this, Charge Beam, Thunderbolt, and Toxic might see some use, but it is generally better to stick with the Calm Mind set to get the best out of Aromatisse. One thing that is important to note is that Draining Kiss has only 10 PP so choosing a coverage move or Moonblast is advisable. So by now, her set looks like in the lines of Calm Mind l Draining Kiss l Filler move l Aromatherapy / Filler move.

Major Battles:

A basic strategy to go for against the Gym Leaders and the Elite Four is to boost up with Calm Mind, and work from there using Draining Kiss to recover back any damage received while setting up. Simple, simple.

Grant: Werks it out.
Korina: Annihilates.
Ramos: Werks it out.
Clemont: Werks it out. Magneton however, is a little B.
Valerie: Werks it out.
Olympia: Werks it out.
Wulfric: Werks it out. However, beware of Wulfric's Avalugg as it packs Gyro Ball. Aside from that, she may also falter into repeated Physical beatings.

Wikstrom: Lawd, have mercy.
Malva: Subpar.
Drasna: Dragalge is a problem, but once the threat is taken care of, you are now free toboost up and spam Draining Kiss.
Siebold: Werks it out.
Diantha: Werks it out.

Team Flare: Aromatisse lulls their Dark and Fighting types to sleep, but does get in trouble with the Poison types here and there.

As you can see, Aromatisse doesn't really have that many good type matchups against the Gyms and the Elite Four, resisting and attacking mostly in neutrality. However with her bulk combined with Calm Mind and Draining Kiss, she can muscle through them, set-up and potentially sweep.

Additional Comments: Overall, Aromatisse is very interesting. Most of the times she can handle herself in solo, acting as a tank and a part-time standalone sweeper without that many support needed; a very self-sufficient Pokemon if you will. And its adorable, too.
 
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Colonel M said:
Speed is literally everything.

In an efficient playthrough, if you are the first to act and KO, you are infinitely better than a Pokemon that KOes after the enemy Pokemon moves.

Let's look at RBY Snorlax. It certainly was far from a terrible Pokemon. It came at roughly the same level as the rest of your team and was able to learn a variety of attacks. It was the premier way of nuking someone off the planet. And once it learned Hyper Beam? You were practically knocking things around. And taking damage? Rest + Pokeflute to the rescue.

Yet despite all of those things, it still landed lower in the tiers.
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I don't think you can really compare to an RBY Pokemon given how fucked up the code is in RBY. Speed gave you crits (which is why fast Pokemon are tiered so high), and there were all sorts of other things which gave other Pokemon huge advantages over Snorlax. Honestly, it never felt like Doublade had speed issues, and I certainly didn't feel like it needed healing more than my other Pokemon. As for your point about status, mine *never* got statused in the whole game all the way through.

I'm down for setting up Barbaracle for C Tier (maybe B but I'm not sure on matchups). It's wrecking things, but my main Rock STAB is still Rock Tomb (and I'm into the 50's). Shell Smash is wonderful but needs a heart scale. Night Slash and Razor Shell finish off my moveset at the moment. Tough Claws is crazy strong on him and gives him that little extra sting some of his moves need. I'm pretty happy with Heliolisk being C probably too and I'm coming round to Golurk being C or maybe D... Hes being hurt a lot by odd things that I dont expect to be able to hit him particularly hard.
 
I don't think you can really compare to an RBY Pokemon given how fucked up the code is in RBY. Speed gave you crits (which is why fast Pokemon are tiered so high), and there were all sorts of other things which gave other Pokemon huge advantages over Snorlax. Honestly, it never felt like Doublade had speed issues, and I certainly didn't feel like it needed healing more than my other Pokemon. As for your point about status, mine *never* got statused in the whole game all the way through.
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Barring odd instances such as Snorlax and Whismur (seriously them in S Tier back then, the fuck?) Almost no one sluggish is placed in S Tier.

If you really want to compare Magnemite and Honedge from their respective games - Magnemite wasnt as balls slow, had durability and typing in rare instances it couldnt OHKO, and had dual STAB (in comparison to a lot of its Electric brethren).

When I ran HGSS, I refused to put Geodude in S. I would sooner put Gyarados in and many people thought Geodude was worthy of S (especially with Golem). Meanwhile, Typhlosion and Scyther remained S not because of their durability - but their pinnacle offense and Speed.

I stand in the same stance here with Aegislash. Its Speed is horrible - it will very likely move the second turn. Thats inefficient in most scenarios.

For example, why bother using Honedge when faster Pokemon will OHKO other threats faster, or on an ocassion 2HKO. For Honedge to beat any Pokemon faster, it has to OHKO the threat it is facing. I guess at least it might in the second gym...
 
First up I definitely get where you're coming from, Colonel, but I think it's a total exaggeration to say that Speed is EVERYTHING (and I'll assume that it was intended as hyperbole and leave it at that without hopefully needing to cite Ninjask as a case against that statement oops).

Now then. If Magnemite is considered S-tier and you want to compare it with Honedge, I'd say that swordy more than stacks up to that standard. 'Slow as balls' though Honedge most certainly is, 'durability and typing in rare instances it couldnt OHKO and dual STAB' pretty much describes Honedge to a T from where I'm sitting. Ghost/Steel is fairly comparable to Electric/Steel defensively (4weak/9res/3imm VS 3weak/11res/1imm), and with Ghost and Steel being as offensively good as they are this gen, I'd say it probably has about as much offensive presence as Magnemite did (if not more, thanks to its undeniably MUCH better movepool). As for its speed-- it definitely doesn't have any sure. But given its good defensive typing and its access to priority AND Swords Dance, (both traits are absent from other slow/bulky examples you cite) this doesn't often matter, and its efficiency is only really compromised when it becomes Aegislash due to its reliance on King's Shield as a result of its slowness. For this reason, I don't think you can really compare it to Geodude or Snorlax, who lacked the ability to attack quickly despite their low speed (like Honedge can).

But speaking of the whole 'efficiency' case, I'm just questioning again how much that really matters (to my knowledge, this is a tier list for regular in-game runs, not speedruns). I understand that it factors into survivability to a degree, but if Honedge is moving second and setting up SD -> Shadow Sneaking or even just smashing everything unboosted, it's hard to know how you can get more efficient than that. For the most part, Honedge and its evos can pretty much KO whatever they're aiming to, whether they're moving second or not--. So… If Magnemite is setting the bar for S-tier, yeah, I'll say again: I think Honedge definitely lives up to that standard. At least, to me, it doesn't make much sense for it to be ranked lower than Mags.

In the interest of being objective, though, if there's anything that might bump him to A-rank, it could be the strange dichotomy between Doublade and Aegislash. Honedge and Doublade do fine all up through most of the game, late evolution or no, but when Dusk Stones become available you have the dilemma of evolving it to Aegislash, or keeping it Doublade. Evolving makes it much stronger both defensively and offensively, but forces a reliance on King's Shield due to its slowness (making it far less efficient), while staying Doublade makes you defensively strong with Eviolite, though you have substantially less Special bulk. (Having used Aegislash, I can attest that its ability to take Shadow Balls, Dark Pulses and Flamethrowers with aplomb probably makes a pretty big difference.)

Colonel M, can you elucidate something for me? I'm just curious as to how… shall I say… how tested your claims against Honedge are. Are you speaking from experience, as someone who used Honedge in an in-game run? Because honestly, listening to your points, it doesn't sound much like it. I mean no disrespect by saying this, and I appreciate you looking at it from a different standpoint, but a lot of these points you're making don't feel fully founded to me, as someone who went in not knowing what to expect and found Honedge to be incredibly useful.
 
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First off, Mega Charizard Y is so hilariously overpowered that it absolutely belongs in S-Tier. Even prior to becoming a Charizard you still have attacks like Dragon Rage,and Flame Burst does decent damage to almost everything. If you teach it Solarbeam and Focus Blast, ZardY single-handedly demolishes the Elite Four and every gym/trainer battle before Drought expires... Anyways....

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Name: - Tyranitar - C Tier
Availability: Version Y Exclusive to Kalos Route 18 & Terminus Cave. Can be captured at level 44 however.
Stats: Base stat total of 600 is serious business, its only shortcoming is speed.
Typing: God awful. Tyranitar might have STAB Stone Edge & Crunch, but defensively it's taking super effective hits regularly with a series high of 7 type weaknesses.
Movepool: One of the deepest move-pools of any Pokemon, ever. Powerful Rock, Dark, Ground, Fire, Dragon, Ice, and Electric attacks. Notably Rock Polish (TM), which lets it out-speed everything you'll encounter after one turn of set-up
Major Battles: As a level 47 Pupitar, the 7th & 8th Gym battles are actually very manageable with super-effective Rock Slide and Crunch. Against the Elite Four, Tyranitar is actually quite good with Stone Edge, Thunderbolt, Earthquake, and Rock Polish. Rock Polish is basically mandatory so you can attack first and follow up with Super-Effective attacks or STAB Stone Edge. Thunderbolt can be swapped out for Dragon Claw or Crunch when not against the Water-type Elite 4. However, if you're not making KO's in one or two turns, Tyranitar's awful defensive typing will be on full display and it will go down after 2-4 hits.
Additional Comments: Tyranitar suffers from the common pseudo-legendary syndrome; obscure availability, slow leveling & evolution, and generally not very useful until you hit level 55. Unless you're specifically out to get one of these ASAP, it's unlikely that you'll have one at level +60 when it's time to take on the Elite Four. Unlike it's pseudo-legendary dragon 'counterparts', Tyranitar actually has excellent moves by the time you can capture it. A notable boon is that it's wild encounter level inside the Terminus Cave and STAB moves make it completely viable against the final two Gym Leaders.
An offensive juggernaut, but defensively dubious, Tyranitar is a worthy asset to your team, providing you're willing to invest some time into finding & evolving it. Unfortunately it comes into play too late in the game to make a big splash overall.
 
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I2edShift: The issue is that Charizard is relying on its Mega Evolution to stomp things. Why is this bad? In the time I sit there & watch on as the Mega Evolution Animation plays out (Which cannot be turned off), I could get two-four turns of battling in. And what is worse is that after the Mega Evolution, Drought then activates, forcing you to sit through another few seconds for it to play out. Not very efficient, eh? But do not get me wrong, Charizard is strong in its own right, & so is Mega Charizard Y, but w/o mega evolution, Charizard loses all hope of trying to beat Clemont on its own (which is shaky at best after mega evolution), especially when Heliolisk hits very hard with Thunderbolt. Also, it falls flat on its face against Siebold without its Mega Evolution as well, since its best move (Solar Beam) has to be charged up, taking two turns to use. In the mean time, his Pokémon can just... Hydro Pump you or something. Also Solar Beam is kinda off the beaten path on Route 21 as well, which means you are going to have to spend a good few minutes getting the TM.

Basically Charizard relies too much on Mega Evolving to be S-Tier efficient, especially given how much stronger it becomes as a result of it, compared to how okay it is beforehand.

You could argue the same thing with Venusaur, but Venusaur is not as reliant on Mega Evolution, as it only offers minor improvements in power & bulk, & cancels out two weaknesses. Also it can function very well with Leftovers & just being a sturdy tank.

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In other news, Murkrow seems to have had a pretty okay Team Flare game, its powerful Fly allowing it to belt most of the things they use, & Eviolite helping it survive their assaults far better. With high enough attack, its Fly can possibly even 2HKO Lysandre's Honchkrow, & you outspeed by a country mile as well, & it also deals massive damage to his Mienshao. It is probably not going to be worth anything above E-Tier though...

Escavalier's Team Flare Game was quite stellar, though its speed continues to be a pain, but only fearing Houndoom while handling most of the grunts is a pretty good job. Not to mention, you can easily stomp Lysandre's Mega Gyarados by sending in a Water resist, then switching into Escavalier since it is going to Outrage 99.9% of the time. Escavalier can then easily shrug off the attacks & take it out easily with X-Scissor. C-Tier seems right on the money from my experience.

Speaking of Lysandre, with minor support, Lapras is a great mon for him. Take out Mienshao, & with your Hyper Potions in store (and maybe Leftovers), it can take whatever Lysandre throws at it, though it struggles to OHKO anything, especially Mega Gyarados, so something else is better. Also Xerneas basically makes the final Lysandre match a massive joke. Just use Geomancy once, then simply spam Moonblast & destroy his team. Only Pyroar survives, but it is 2HKOed, & it cannot do much in return with Fire Blast, especially since you are at +2 SpD.

I guess I might update the tiers soon... I still need to put Doublade/Aegislash into Limbo... -.-'

EDIT: They are in Limbo now.
 
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Points about reliance on megavolution and relative lack of efficiency notwithstanding, I just want to point out that Megazard Y doesn't have to wait for Solarbeam to charge up bcuz Drought. If anything, I think Drought and Solarbeam makes it even more phenomenal for Siebold, since sun more or less removes its Water weakness as well as hitting everything but Gyarados supereffectively (and it can probably handle Gyara with Air Slash). Assuming one Solarbeam each for Clawitzer, Starmie, and Barbaracle, Y-Zard pretty efficiently sweeps Siebold without needing to worry about Drought running out, assuming that Air Slash 2KOs Gyarados.
 
Unless you're trying to speed run the game, Mega evolution animations and Drought don't mean anything to me. Nor is getting a couple TM's that only take 5 minutes at most an issue. But I can understand that point at least. In my own game I purposely didn't use Zard the majority of the time just because it made battles trivial. Anything that wasn't hit for super effective damage was OHKO'd by Drought boosted flamethrower. It does rely heavily on that evolution though.

Any thoughts on the Ttar write up?
 
About Klefki:
Steel/Fairy is an amazing typing.It resists/is immune to 11/18 types, and is only weak to 2. I personally find Klefki great at taking on Dark types and other Fairy types. Foul Play is a great move, it can also run Dazzling Gleam for great damage. It has Mirror Shot when obtained, but Flash Cannon (TM) is great. Klefki was very useful in rival battles, the E4, especially dragon one. And the Champion battle.... With Foul Play, Flash cannon, and Dazzling Gleam, Klefki has super effective coverage on ALL of her pokemon. And it gets Prankster.
 
If you didn't feel Floette was bad, does that mean you were using Exp Share? Its special attack is kinda low unevolved, and it's not really speeding up the acquisition of any good moves by staying unevolved.

I evolved mine; not sure if it's a B or a C.

KNotW said:
It literally is doing nothing but STAB water attacks until the Move deleter is available at earliest and possibly not until it gets Extrasensory at Lv 49. Out of all the non Ice-Beam moves you mentioned, only Night Slash and maybe Power-up Punch will be more useful than an HM. Acrobatics isn't guaranteed to exist in every playthrough and makes it so you can't give it an item. It can easily end with a moveset of Surf/Extrasensory/Dark Pulse/Ice Beam for the elite four, but until it learns Extrasensory it has no other use for those slots than HMs and when it does need the moveslots the Deleter will be available so it's no big deal. Froakie has a huge chunk of the game where it has available moveslots and putting strength and cut in them doesn't hurt it at all because the rest of its moveset comes so late as TMs after the Deleter is available. Froakie saves trips to the PC to get an HM slave by learning all the HM moves and can fight decently anyway.
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IMHO it's more efficient when you have the same mons assigned to HM slaving, because catching stuff when you want to make room for just one move and flying around takes time (if this is the case, you might as well just stick to spamming Surf as you said).

I disagree about all moves pre-move deleter not being contested by non-HM moves. You have:

- early Return and there's a good chance you'll build up a lot of happiness early since you get it at L5 and it will probably take part in every early gym
- Quick Attack/Shadow Sneak to avoid being hit by other priority attacks when hitting something (low priority; might as well replace with an HM move)
- Feint Attack; can be learnt prior to the move deleter and is powered up by Korrina's TM
- Dig. Very good power, allows you to hit electric types that endanger Froakie.
- Rock Tomb. Coverage move; it's hard to say if Greninja needs this, but depending on the size of your team and the mons you're using you're pretty likely to want to run this.
- Grass Knot. For other water-types (because not everybody has a grass/electric type).
- Acrobatics. I thought you're guaranteed to get this fairly early on my first blind run but on my second run I got Confide? Is it 25% chance? Adjusting 3DS clock seems to accomplish nothing. Either way, if you get it, you're likely putting it on Greninja's set and removing its item so that it can hurt grass and fighting type pretty well.

Overall, I disagree with using Greninja as an HM slave at any point in the game. Most up-to-date water-type move + a physical moveset with Power-up Punch is what I would recommend to make the best out of it.
 
I think some of us are confused about the nature of the tiering. Is it's primary function as a tool for speed runs? Is it primarily as a resource for newer players? Somewhere in between? When we tier should we take into account only it's usefulness in speed runs and other challenges, or should we take into account every different kind of playthrough experience? For example, charizard y is an S tier if you aren't factoring speed runs at all but he probably is an A or even B if all you were factoring in is speed runs
 
If you read the first paragraph you'd understand completely how we do in-game tiers. But I'll expand, speed runs are often about manipulating the game and resting for that perfect nature and IV's, and then have every move of every battle planned out through playing the game hundreds of times. For all the time in a world record speed run that runner has put probably 20x that into game planning. This isn't what we are doing, though we may help those. Our in-game tiers are about beating the game as quickly and easily as possible without planning out every battle. If you are resetting the game and just need to get another Xerneas and want as little trouble as possible, this is what we are for. If you have some custom challenge such as a nuzlocke or scramble and need to have a good idea of where the mon is useful in-game this can also help.
 
Hidious said:
I think some of us are confused about the nature of the tiering. Is it's primary function as a tool for speed runs? Is it primarily as a resource for newer players? Somewhere in between? When we tier should we take into account only it's usefulness in speed runs and other challenges, or should we take into account every different kind of playthrough experience? For example, charizard y is an S tier if you aren't factoring speed runs at all but he probably is an A or even B if all you were factoring in is speed runs
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This is something I'd like to know too. I didn't think it mattered so much, but Random and Colonel M's talk of 'efficiency' (which I'm reading as how fast they can KO things in real time) are kind of confusing in that regard. In fact I question whether or not this is something that REALLY needs to be addressed in the first place.

For instance, Charizard Y is NOT efficient in terms of actual in-game time like Random says, yes, but it IS efficient in that it can pretty effectively stomp most opponents you encounter (in other words, in terms of number of turns it needs). I was under the impression that the latter was the one that mattered more in terms of 'speed' and 'effort', and if a player is indeed NOT doing a speedrun, why would he/she care if he/she has to watch megavolution animations a few times? That's just what I'm wondering here.
 
Layell said:
If you read the first paragraph you'd understand completely how we do in-game tiers. But I'll expand, speed runs are often about manipulating the game and resting for that perfect nature and IV's, and then have every move of every battle planned out through playing the game hundreds of times. For all the time in a world record speed run that runner has put probably 20x that into game planning. This isn't what we are doing, though we may help those. Our in-game tiers are about beating the game as quickly and easily as possible without planning out every battle. If you are resetting the game and just need to get another Xerneas and want as little trouble as possible, this is what we are for. If you have some custom challenge such as a nuzlocke or scramble and need to have a good idea of where the mon is useful in-game this can also help.
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Why, then, is the list being constantly defined by real-time "efficiency"? Who cares if it takes four seconds of battling time to watch a mega evolution if it garuantees an OHKO on every party member? Unless you are completely speedrunning the game, I don't understand the whole "mega evolution slows the game down". Do we count dig as a bad in-game move because it displays two screens of text instead of one? Is brave bird automatically horrible because the animation is too long? If this list is not a speedrunner's guide (as it doesn't seem to be) the why is mega evolution a detriment to tiering? Mega Charizard Y and Mega Lucario are basically insta-win buttons every battle with no thought required. It's super easy, so why does it have to be called "inefficient"?

Just reminding people that the full mega evolution animation only plays once for each pokemon each startup. After that, it's the quicker 3 second animation or so for each battle. It's maybe one turn of battling in real life time, but you don't have to worry about getting hit. Also, if somebody has more than one pokemon, it makes the rest of the battle short.
 
Lucchini said:
If you didn't feel Floette was bad, does that mean you were using Exp Share? Its special attack is kinda low unevolved, and it's not really speeding up the acquisition of any good moves by staying unevolved.

I evolved mine; not sure if it's a B or a C.
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I didn't feel like using my Shiny Stone, so I kept it with Eviolite (with EXP. Share). At lv. 75+ it struggled against the E4, failing to OHKO any of Drasna's mons. If you evolved it but did not use EXP. Share, I can only imagine a similar level of power with a lv. ~55-60 Florges.

It did take out half of Diantha's team though, and Florges does that just as well even with the level difference. The only possible differences are Goodra and possibly Tyrantrum.

Also you might as well just ditch Flabebe and just use Budew instead, much easier, and less competition for the Shiny Stone.
 
Fletchling is a terrible pokemon because of how long it takes to raise to a usable level. It struggles against the first gym which it is supposed to have a type advantage against, doesn't get Acrobatics until level 39/44, and doesn't get Flare Blitz until reaching Dendemille.

Farfetch'd is without question the best pokemon until getting to the second gym. It gets Aerial Ace immediately, which destroys the first gym, and learns decently powerful moves in Knock Off and Slash early. On top of that, it levels up rapidly due to the 1.5x trade bonus.

Steelix is incredibly good against the second gym, but is useless for pretty much everything else.
 
GatoDelFuego said:
Why, then, is the list being constantly defined by real-time "efficiency"? Who cares if it takes four seconds of battling time to watch a mega evolution if it guarantees an OHKO on every party member? Unless you are completely speedrunning the game, I don't understand the whole "mega evolution slows the game down". Do we count dig as a bad in-game move because it displays two screens of text instead of one? Is brave bird automatically horrible because the animation is too long? If this list is not a speedrunner's guide (as it doesn't seem to be) the why is mega evolution a detriment to tiering? Mega Charizard Y and Mega Lucario are basically insta-win buttons every battle with no thought required. It's super easy, so why does it have to be called "inefficient"?

Just reminding people that the full mega evolution animation only plays once for each pokemon each startup. After that, it's the quicker 3 second animation or so for each battle. It's maybe one turn of battling in real life time, but you don't have to worry about getting hit. Also, if somebody has more than one Pokemon, it makes the rest of the battle short.
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This was exactly my thoughts when Its_A_Random replied to me. But I wasn't going to argue the point further because it's not my thread and it honestly doesn't affect me. I know how stupidly OP Zard was, with almost zero effort involved.

The first paragraph states:
In-game tier lists rank Pokémon according to their usefulness during the main portion of the game—that is, until the credits roll for the first time. In-game tier lists provide players with the information needed to complete the game as quickly and as effortlessly as possible. For competitively-minded players, this approach to playing the game gives them more immediate access to useful items, TMs, and HMs.
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Straight from the op, and yet there is zero mention of efficiency or real world time in the topic post.. Charizard Y is easily available, has few (if any) bad match-ups before or after getting it's Mega form, and proceeds to OHKO roflstomp almost the entire game without question. I've honestly never felt like I've had such an overpowered Poke'mon since catching Mewtwo in Red/Blue.

It's whatever (honestly), but if you're tiering this in relation to speed-running the game, then your OP needs to say that and not the comments.
 
goomy pls said:
Farfetch'd is without question the best pokemon until getting to the second gym. It gets Aerial Ace immediately, which destroys the first gym, and learns decently powerful moves in Knock Off and Slash early. On top of that, it levels up rapidly due to the 1.5x trade bonus.

Steelix is incredibly good against the second gym, but is useless for pretty much everything else.
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I think the bolded statement accurately describes Farfetch'd's in-battle usage beyond the first gym, actually. Although, he IS still a pretty good utility Pokemon with moves like Cut, Fly, Thief, False Swipe, and Air Cutter (for background berry things in hordes and stuff).

Actually, I take it back. Farfetch'd's ability to help muscle past the first gym and good out-of-battle support all around make him pretty decent. Maybe like… C/D-tier or so?
 
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