As I said before you can also have Bulldoze on it for potential Ground STAB before the Rock Gym
Lunatone seems like it would at least be better than Solrock, although I don't know if it deserves C. Its good special attacks allows it to use its movepool better. It comes with Hypnosis and Confusion (although you need one below level 17) and it learns Psychic and Moonblast by level up, and Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and I guess Charge Beam from TMs can help round out coverage. It's not particularly fast and its bulk is not anything special especially considering it has 6 weaknesses. I assume, unlike Solrock, it has a good matchup against Korrina, but it's not too helpful anywhere else. I assume it's also not nearly as good against Team Flare, although it still resists most of their attacks, its Rock STAB is not nearly as effective. After reviewing, D-Tier is fine.I'm using Solrock at the moment and it's not horrible but definitely not great. It can have a relatively strong moveset early on in rock slide / bulldoze / acrobatics (if you're lucky) / filler (mine's psychic) so it can dish out good amounts of damage. The thing holding it back though is that it just doesn't clean out any gyms. I thought it would help in Grant's gym but Amaura is pretty bulky and Tyrunt just destroys it with Bite. Even if you over-level it for Korrina to get Psychic, it's sp.attack stat is too weak to hurt anything. It can't really do much against any other gym either, I'm nearly up to Wulfric where I think it's rock-STAB should help. Flamethrower should definitely be used for his Abomasnow and Avalugg though. Looking ahead to the E4 and I'm thinking I'll only use him against Malva who he should do well against (watch out for shadow ball from Chandelure) but looks bad against the rest...
tl;dr Solrock has been really good against Team Flare and random trainers, and it being in the fast experience group has meant it has been one of my highest level mons (if not the highest), I haven't even given it the lucky egg once because of Acrobatics. I think D-tier is fine where you have it
but idk just coz I like it, it could maybe go C
I think we might have discussed this earlier but I think Solrock makes use of it's movepool better as most of its (good/early) options are physical. Moonblast, Shadow Ball and Ice Beam all come quite late, and Grass Knot will be weak against most in-game trainers due to all the random lightweight 'mons they use. Solrock on the other hand can have Rock Slide / Bulldoze / Acrobatics / filler pretty early so it can dish out damage for most of the game. Lunatone has to rely on Psychic and Grass Knot for ages until you find all the good tms. But alas, we don't tier 'mons relative to how other ones do, so they will both end up D-tier, but for arguments sake I solidly think Solrock is better then Lunatone...Lunatone seems like it would at least be better than Solrock, although I don't know if it deserves C. Its good special attacks allows it to use its movepool better. It comes with Hypnosis and Confusion (although you need one below level 17) and it learns Psychic and Moonblast by level up, and Grass Knot, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and I guess Charge Beam from TMs can help round out coverage. It's not particularly fast and its bulk is not anything special especially considering it has 6 weaknesses. I assume, unlike Solrock, it has a good matchup against Korrina, but it's not too helpful anywhere else. I assume it's also not nearly as good against Team Flare, although it still resists most of their attacks, its Rock STAB is not nearly as effective. After reviewing, D-Tier is fine
I mean I guess, but wouldn't you have to get lucky in Coumarine for Acrobatics or just backtrack back to the TM lady every day? The reason I assumed (my last post was all theory) that Lunatone would be better is because of its better gym matchup against Korrina and Olympia. I forgot that you don't have Shadow Ball at the psychic gym. Solrock however, as you said, has a better early movepool and is more helpful against Team Flare and random trainers. They're both solidly D-Tier though.I think we might have discussed this earlier but I think Solrock makes use of it's movepool better as most of its (good/early) options are physical. Moonblast, Shadow Ball and Ice Beam all come quite late, and Grass Knot will be weak against most in-game trainers due to all the random lightweight 'mons they use. Solrock on the other hand can have Rock Slide / Bulldoze / Acrobatics / filler pretty early so it can dish out damage for most of the game. Lunatone has to rely on Psychic and Grass Knot for ages until you find all the good tms. But alas, we don't tier 'mons relative to how other ones do, so they will both end up D-tier, but for arguments sake I solidly think Solrock is better then Lunatone...
Well let's see, it's available as soon as you get Rock Smash before the second gym. Its stats are meh, its very slow and frail from the special side at least. Its attack is perfectly acceptable and its defense is great. Its typing is not that good, it only has 2 resistances and is weak to Rock, Steel, and Water, all of which have a gym leader/elite four member of that type. The highlight of its movepool is Shell Smash. Other than that is learns X-Scissor and Rock Slide via level-up, and Shadow Claw, Earthquake (which comes extremely late and is very out of the way but it's Earthquake), and I guess Poison Jab as coverage. It doesn't have many good matchups however, I guess it can help against Ramos and Olympia, as well as the elite 4 that it isn't weak to as long as it has Shell Smash and gets to use it. I still think D-Tier is fine but I won't protest against C.As a Dwebble/Crustle user, I'd like to suggest C for it actually. It's easy to get a good nature for it and although Shell Smash isn't that impressive on its own, Sturdy + Shell Smash guarantees you'll be able to clean up things that you've got no business cleaning up once you learn it (L40). His best STAB (X-Scissor) is available before the Grass gym, and although it's not on the main path it takes like two minutes to get there.
For what it's worth, you can sweep SIEBOLD with a Crustle in most circumstances.
can't say, i haven't used hippopotas personally so i can't speak for this, but do you think the fact that it's in the slow experience group would hamper its performance?Seconding the comments on Hippopotas as well. His ability may bring chip damage to the team but like atsync said, most battles are only a few turns long so it doesn't hurt that bad. He has positive matchups in most of the gyms / elite 4 and learns good moves in Dig/Bulldoze/Earthquake, Rock Tomb/Rockslide, Crunch, Elemantal Fang / Strength. Sure he's a bit slow but at least he has solid bulk to back it up. If you can look past Sand Stream he could almost push for C-tier but will probably reside in D
Hmmm I actually hadn't considered that, I ended up dropping him mid-game (not because he sucked!) for a Flygon because I needed a flyer, but that wasn't enough time to let his exp. rate be a hindrance. I suppose late game you'd find him a little underlevelled but I don't think that would be too detrimental to him. Actually come to think of it, there is a lot of exp. to earn in XY, so I don't think growth rates are really that detrimental in this gen...can't say, i haven't used hippopotas personally so i can't speak for this, but do you think the fact that it's in the slow experience group would hamper its performance?
Okay...first of all, hi everyone.
i know i'm kinda late to the party but after reading the whole thread i felt like a few things need to be adressed/discussed.
first one (and i believe the most important too) is how the OP says the tiers were made with efficiency and effort (more precisely the lack of it) in mind and yet disregard things like availability and rarity for the most part.
i'm not really advocating either, i just feel like this thread is trying to mix two incompatible points of view because on one hand there's a big focus on time consumption when it comes to happiness evos, etc. but on the other hand it keeps ignoring things like the apparantly extremely random chance of getting an old amber among other things.
... Espeon since Eevee comes as low as Level 19 and in order for it to learn a decent STAB move, it has to evolve at Level 20. This means that the opportunity cost is higher because unless you want to waste 20 minutes or so running around, it is going to have no decent STAB for some time (and therefore, suck massively). All rules tend to have exceptions and Espeon is pretty much an exception because of this predicament. Aerodactyl on the other hand, well Old Amber is apparently very common before the Elite Four so it is reasonable to expect to get an Old Amber along the way to the end of the Glittering Cave saga, assuming you have Rock Smash. Then it pretty much starts crushing from the moment you can mega evolve. Also the opportunity cost thing I mentioned earlier applies here.to put it into perspective: eevee was reported to take around 20 minutes to evolve through happiness to get a key move VS some people saying it took them only a few tries to get old amber while others said it took around an hour or more.
if you average the time investment reported by everyone regarding old amber it would be around at least half an hour which means a pretty good chance to be more time consuming than espeon and yet espeon dropped a tier because of time consumption while aerodactyl kept it's immaculate S rank, which doesn't make any sense.
and i'm sure there are other examples but these two were the ones that came to mind for a comparison.
Axew requires a bit of babying, especially before it evolves. Swords Dance is shit; Dragon Dance is superior. Dragon Rage can only take you so far. By the time you get to Valerie Axew is probably still an Axew and very frail. At least it has Dragon Dance at that point. Axew plays very much like Ralts. Despite Dragon Rage, it requires a lot of babying just to evolve. Once it evolves it is pretty good, yes but until it gets to that stage, it sucks. Solid B-Tier.the second thing i want to discuss is axew being B tier. don't really understand this one tbh.
shouldn't it be at least A tier?
let's see: it gets it's best STAB move REALLY early and by level up. it also gets dragon/swords dance, poison jab for fairies, dig/earthquake for steel types.
also it's stats are almost perfect for it's role: one-turn set up sweeps.
it even gets mold breaker to bypass sturdy (the biggest sweep breaker).
so i can't help but wonder... why exactly is it only B tier?
Seviper is not E-Tier lol. The thing with Seviper is that it has two good matchups (Ramos and Valerie) and even Grant if you got Bulldoze prior to capturing it. Speed is not as relevant in XY as other games otherwise things like Honedge would not be as high. It is pretty frail yes but it actually has a rather good matchup record. Also 100/100 offences is actually very good at the time you get it for what it is worth. You are putting too much emphasis on the stats and not enough on aspects like major battles and movepool where it can really matter. Maybe C-Tier is a bit too high for it but it is way too good for E-Tier. D-Tier is respectable but C-Tier is not as far-fetched as you are making it out to be.last but not least seviper is DEFINITELY not C tier.
no offense Random but wtf? have you even looked at it's stats?
defensively, this stat spread means you're dealing with a pokemon with no defense.
offensively, the stat spread + type means you have a "meh" STAB (poison isn't terrible in this game but it's still decent-ish at best) and pretty decent coverage moves that are next to useless because 65 speed is bad, 73/60/60 defenses are bad and even 100/100 Atk/SpA are... to put it nicely, unimpressive, given this pokemon won't outspeed much, cannot take two half-decent hits and at the same time doesn't have the raw power to OHKO much (especially late game).
this is coming from someone who loves this pokemon and just finished a mono-poison run so i would argue the bias is quite low.
i'd say a D if you're feeling very generous. but if you want to be realistic, it's an easy E. not absolutely useless but extremely underwhelming.
also, i hope no one mentions glare in response to this.
seriously, just look at the stats and tell me how exactly it can afford to spend a turn tanking a hit while not dealing any damage in return AND either tank a second hit for a 2-hit KO or even OHKO after glare.
exactly, not happening.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that. I am merely justifying my decisions since you came in pretty late.sorry if I sounded rude (definitely not my intention) at any point and for the wall of text too i guess xD
Ferroseed should probably be D because its weak until evolving (at 37 I think?) and Gyro Ball has shit PP.I am still not 100% sold on these but I am going to err on the side of caution here. That and there has not been a post here for a few days so...
Dwebble: N/A -> D-Tier
Shellder (Y): N/A -> C-Tier
That said you are welcome to disagree. Dwebble is bad until you get Shell Smash. Shellder is p cool but I am going to be conservative here.
Anyhow another mass dump of provisional tierings:
Chinchou: N/A -> D-Tier (Okay matchup record, okay movepool, early evolution, mediocre stats though)
Chingling: N/A -> E-Tier (I guess it comes just before Korrina... But other than that I guess it is not that great. Tri-flawless stats only takes it so far)
Cubone: N/A -> D-Tier (If it came with Thick Club with some sort of consistency it could be ranked higher but it has a decent match-up record)
Dedenne: N/A -> E-Tier (I would rank it higher if it actually got useful Fairy-type coverage... >_<)
Electrike (Y): N/A -> D-Tier (I can see this in C-Tier as well but it is half decent I guess)
Exeggcute: N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in E-Tier as well but I guess Exeggutor's decent Sp. Attack is a saving grace of sorts?)
Ferroseed: N/A -> D-Tier (A lack of Grass STAB until evolution past the sixth gym sucks, slower than molasses but it has decent bulk and Gyro Ball. Can work in C)
Gorebyss: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant evolution is a plus but Water-types are ehh and it does not have a great match-up record. Slow, but decent Sp. Attack is cool)
Houndour (X): N/A -> D-Tier (Can work in C-Tier. Early evo is good but it lacks something decent to use its Sp. Attack off for a while. Rough matchups at first)
Huntail: N/A -> E-Tier (Similar to Gorebyss but its Special Attack is not as great. Could work in D-Tier and vice versa for Gorebyss)
Mantyke: N/A -> D-Tier (Yay instant evo boo no real good Flying-type STAB until the lategame. Huge Special bulk though. Can work in E)
Mareep: N/A -> D-Tier (It comes in a horde and it is slow as but it gets its Mega Evolution which possesses great bulk and extraordinary power. It can work in C)
Mawile: N/A -> E-Tier (Best defensive typing is a plus but it is slow and has mediocre stats. It really needed its mega evolution personally)
Nidoran: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidorina comes tri-flawless and a near instant Nidoqueen which has a huge movepool and a decent record)
Nidoran: N/A -> B-Tier (Nidoking is super cool and has always been great in-game. XY is no real exception either. A-Tier is a bit too much of a stretch though)
Remoraid: N/A -> D-Tier (Instant Evo is cool and it has some powerful offences but it is slow as after evolution... I guess it can be worth a look in C)
Roggenrola: N/A -> D-Tier (It does not get OHKOed which is a plus but it comes at a really rough time for it and it just does not seem super great. Can work in E)
Sigilyph: N/A -> C-Tier (This or B-Tier. Good for Korrina and Ramos and great stats at the point you get it. Being conservative here however I guess)
Slowpoke (Slowbro): N/A -> E-Tier (Ummm... Uhhh... Hmmm... Slowbro is half decent but the early-game does it no favours)
Slowpoke (Slowking): N/A -> E-Tier (It comes earlier than Slowbro I guess... It is definitely better because of it but I doubt it is good enough to warrant D)
Snubbull: N/A -> D-Tier (C-Tier is not completely far-fetched. Early evo is really good and Base 120 Attack is great. No STAB until late sucks though)
Solosis: N/A -> D-Tier (I guess it is good against Korrina and Recover off the bat is cool but it does not evolve early and its bulk is poor. C could work?)
Stunky: N/A -> D-Tier (It has a good match-up record I guess?)
Yanma: N/A -> D-Tier (It has an okay match-up record but there are quite a lot of Rock-type attacks that annoy it in those matchups. Horde-only sucks)
I guess these are what I think about them with some wild guesses. What do you guys think? some twenty four entries there this should clean up the coastal section
EDIT: Okay the updated list is now live.
You make some mistakes when reasoning for the Nidos though.Ferroseed should probably be D because its weak until evolving (at 37 I think?) and Gyro Ball has shit PP.
The Nidos should probably be recommended with their Hidden Ability since that's what makes them so good for in-game. You can get Bulldoze in Lumiose for a Sheer Force booted STAB attack to beat Clemont and Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are both great options. I'd personally recommend King > Queen due to the higher offensive stats but it's not enough to justify a Rank change.
EDIT: They also have good matchups Flare, Val, Malva, Wilkstrom, and half of Dianthia's team.
Things like Scraggy are also special in the way, that they literally tell you about their HA (here Intimidate). This still leaves a 1 in 5 chance to get the HA Pokemon - good luck ;)Yeah I am being conservative with a lot of choices, perhaps too conservative with some as hinted to with Ferroseed. I did hint that C was something I would consider (probably will end up doing) but I am not fully sold on B yet. A-Tier is too much of a stretch in my humble abilities.
Also to answer the question about whether this is a speed run or not, this is more directed at an "efficient run", that is to say, while you are not trying to blast through the game as fast as possible, you are aiming to clear the game as efficiently as possible assuming a reasonable team size (generally at least three members that you are training).
With regards to Sheer Force Nidos (And by extension, hidden abilities in general); You are far better off just catching their common, higher-levelled evolved forms as opposed to idling around for a horde and hope you roll a Sheer Force mon. If you are lucky and get one, then good for you. Otherwise I simply would not bother. Hidden Abilities would be more excusable in the case of something like Scraggy where you can only catch them in hordes anyway but otherwise just do not bother.
Ferroseed doesn't really die though, and has enough power to strike back for decent damage at least (Ferrothorn does wreck some house). While it is reliant on either set up or the low PP Gyro Ball to dish out real damage as a Ferroseed, having a solid Steel-type this early in the game is not something to look down on.Yeah I am being conservative with a lot of choices, perhaps too conservative with some as hinted to with Ferroseed. I did hint that C was something I would consider (probably will end up doing) but I am not fully sold on B yet. A-Tier is too much of a stretch in my humble abilities.