Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion

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Chinchou: I think D-tier is fine. Stats have always been Chinchou's main issue, but it ticks the boxes in most of the other categories. Unfortunate that the next gym after getting it is probably its worst one, but there are others where it does much better.

Chingling: Agree with E-tier. My only experience with this is from a Diamond playthrough. It was awful. I don't think much has changed to make it better. At least it comes early with at least 3 31 IVs and a favourable match-up coming up...

Cubone: I think it's worth noting that Cubone has a 20% chance of holding Thick Club if you lead with something with Compound Eyes (Nincada is readily available as a Compound Eyes slave, but Vivillon and Butterfree also work). Those odds aren't actually that bad. However, I'm not sure if that's good enough because that still means an 80% chance of missing out, plus you have to encounter a Cubone in an area where lots of other Pokemon are found, so that odds are still a bit too low for an efficient run. If we don't have a problem with this then it should definitely be at least C-tier, or possibly even B. If not, D-tier seems fine for it since it's fairly weak without its signature item, and it's slow on top of that, but it's movepool is decent - STAB Bonemerang at level 21 is cool and Rock Tomb is handy also.

Dedenne: E-tier definitely. Not even sure how beneficial making it part Fairy was to it...

Electrike/Houndour: Doing these together since they basically have the same strengths and weaknesses. While I do think that learning only physical moves early on is unfortunate, the fact that they evolve early does make up for it somewhat. Houndoom gets 90 Attack at level 24, so is can use things like Fire Fang, Bite and Feint Attack somewhat well until its special moves come along late-game. Admittedly its first gym battles aren't good for it, but it gets several decent to good match-ups later on. C-tier would be fine for Houndour I think. Electrike is similar. It evolves just a bit later, but it is significantly weaker in Attack. On the plus side, it doesn't have to wait as long for a special move since Thunderbolt is much earlier than Flamethrower or Dark Pulse. Manectric itself gets Flamethrower too, which is fairly niche for an Electric-type. I think C-tier would be ok for Electrike too.

Exeggcute: Could go either way. It has high attacking stats but pretty much nothing to use them with for a while: Confusion and Grass Knot, that's it. Plus it's slow and lacking in special bulk, and it isn't exactly setting the world on fire with its match-ups either. Wood Hammer at level 37 is ok though (I think that would be around the 5th gym depending on team size, recoil sucks though) and its late-game options are much better. I prefer to be conservative in cases that I view as borderline so I'd probably go E-tier, but I don't really feel that confident in saying that.

Ferroseed: I also agree with what others have said about D being too low. I think this looks pretty similar to Steelix; what it lacks in raw power and Speed it makes up for in resistances and bulk. I'll go with C-tier just to be conservative, but B-tier is ok too if more people want that instead.

Gorebyss/Huntail: Gorebyss is definitely better, but I'm not really sure that Huntail is so much worse than Gorebyss that it should end up in a lower tier. 94 Sp Atk isn't that bad and it's supported by 104 Atk. It looks like it could be an ok mixed attacker with Surf, Ice Beam, Waterfall, Ice Fang and Crunch to pick from across the game. If Gorebyss is going in D-tier I think Huntail should be too (or we could drop Gorebyss to E-tier, but either way I think they should be in the same tier).

Mantyke: Well Air Slash at level 36 isn't THAT late (although it does miss out on the Grass gym) and it gets Surf right away. Mantine looks similar to Lanturn in terms of raw power. It has a good Special movepool (Surf, Air Slash, Ice Beam, Psybeam and Signal Beam). Match-ups are ok, not great (most of the Elite 4 has a least 1 Electric move). I guess D-tier is ok, won't complain if it ends up in E instead. Catching it can be annoying though, since its catch-rate is surprisingly low.

Mareep: Between C and D, I'd pick D. I just think horde exclusives are mostly poor choices. This one happens to get a mega-evolution though, so I guess it is better than other horde Pokemon.

Mawile: I was about to make an argument for this in D-tier mostly because its typing would give it great match-ups against many important trainers. It's basically a bad Steelix. However, aside from its poor stats, its early-game movepool blows. Fairy Wind as its best STAB until you reach the move relearner is pretty bad, and Mawile isn't really strong enough to rely on unSTABed coverage moves for that long. So E-tier is probably best - its decent match-ups and early appearance are enough to keep it out of F-tier.

Nidorans: Yeah agree with B-tier for both. They've always been at least decent in any game they've appeared in (and ofter better than decent), and they got even better with the extra 10 points they got in Attack. I probably would stay away from Sheer Force though since you'd likely waste more time trying to get them than you would save by having it on your team.

Remoraid: D-tier is ok, don't have much to say about it.

Roggenrola: I'm curious as to whether a split entry would be justified here. Probably not, but getting a Gigalith at level 25 over Boldore would be particularly helpful against special attackers. But in any case it doesn't seem that useful. Rock by itself isn't that great, and you have maybe 2 favourable match-ups in exchange for poor ones against the first 2 gyms it faces and at least 2 of the Elite 4. Low Speed isn't helpful for routes, and it doesn't have a stack of resistances to help it out either, though its physical bulk is great. Movepool is basically limited to STAB + Earthquake, which isn't too bad but could be wider. Would probably go E just to be conservative, but I don't feel confident here either.

Sigilyph: I lean towards B-tier. It's obtained early and is immediately powerful, with great stats and strong STAB moves, and the first 2 gyms it faces are in its favour. It doesn't really have any favourable match-ups after that but it can still contribute against other gyms and remains useful as a fast and powerful route cleaner that doesn't really drop off. And having something to deal with the fighting trainers in Reflection Cave is handy in any case.

Slowbro/Slowking: I guess I could make a similar argument to Thick Club Cubone here and say that Compound Eyes give you a 20% chance of getting a King's Rock from Hariyama (or Hawlucha, but Hariyama is probably easier). That would give you a potentially instant evolution for Slowpoke, in which case I could see a case for at least D-tier for Slowking. However, if we decide that's too much of a bother than E-tier alongside Slowbro might be best. I couldn't stress enough just how bad Slowpoke is before it evolves, which pretty much kills spoils things for Slowbro.

Snubbull: D-tier is fine. I think C-tier would be a bit high because it's slow and kinda frail and has no STAB for a while. Maybe if it had retained its Normal typing it would be higher, but it didn't so no.

Solosis: Just want to point out that Duosion has identical Sp. Atk and Speed to Reuniclus, and it can hold Eviolite to help make up for its worse bulk. Therefore, late evolution isn't as bad for Solosis as it might seem at first, since its middle stage (obtained at Level 32) has comparable power to its final stage. It also gets Psyshock at level 25 for a powerful STAB. Could see a case for C-tier, but no higher than that since it doesn't have many favourable match-ups and it is SLOW.

Stunky: ugh why can't this learn Poison Jab by TM before it evolves? D-tier is probably fine but it has a few flaws, such as being weak initially and evolving a bit late into another Pokemon whose stats aren't that great. It has a few options for moves though: Thief from TM and Slash at level 22 is...ok. It can try a Toxic + Venoshock combo too. When it evolves, Poison Jab is immediately available to it for a good reliable STAB, and um...Flamethrower. It only has 1 weakness too, which means it can contribute against many gym leaders, etc. if not beat them outright.

Yanma: er yeah I was going to say something similar to Ondore about putting this in E-tier instead. Being horde only is bad enough, but just look at how terrible Yanma's movepool is early on. Aerial Ace off 65 Attack and Sonicboom are its best moves, and Uproar isn't really that good either. It evolves at level 33 and is finally able to learn Struggle Bug, but by then it 50 base power seems a bit underwhelming and you aren't getting much better than that until the move relearner. So maybe Yanmega has some use late-game which is enough to put it above F-tier, but I think that you have to put up with a lot prior to that, to the point where I'd say E-tier.
The only thing I want to add to atsync ´s thoughts is some arguments about considering Experience grow a bit more.

I think for example, that Houndour and Electrike should get ranked in D tier for being in the slow experience group.
Being in the slow experience group means they approximately reach level 30 when a medium slow learner is on lv 33 and a fast learner is on 35-36. So in fact you either have to focus more on the slow learning Pokemon or you have a quite recognizably lower damage output than your other Pokemon.

Imo both cases show that a slow learner comes with a considerable opportunity cost if we want to aim at an efficient run.
I can do some calculations to show that those level gaps matter if requested.
On Mareep, since I've actually used this one in Y, I'd say more C than D. Being a horde exclusive really isn't that big of a deal. It's the common horde, so you are bound to run into it pretty quick (and you can manually trigger it with the honey you get on Route 4).

The only pain is getting it to catch up with the level curve, but once you do it's Ampharos (and therefore Mega-Ampharos) pretty quickly. Gets most of the moves it needs via level-up, just teach it Focus Blast and Dragon Pulse when you get to.

It is slow as beans but bulky enough to work with it (and only one weakness if you don't mega-evolve). Doesn't do well gym-wise until after the electric one, but is a solid choice from there on out. The flexibility to add and subtract it's dragon type is a cool aspect, so it won't struggle with the fairy, ice, and dragon Gyms/Elite Four like a true dragon-type would but still can reap the benefits in the others.

I wouldn't go higher than C with that speed and the necessary power-leveling, but I feel D is being way too conservative with one of the in-game 'megas.
Right; I've been through many more playthroughs now; so I've got a lot more to share my cents on.

First one is one I've talked about before but isn't tiered:

Mantyke - B Tier

Mantyke is available in Route 12 and Azure Bay; so there is a good chance you will naturally run into one as you surf towards the 4th Gym. Because it is relevant; Remoraid can be fished in the same locations with the Good Rod; which is obtained in the area. This means you only need level Mantyke once to get Mantine. It is worth mentioning that grinding it to catch up is effortless on Route 13.

-Typing: Water/Flying is a pretty unique typing; shared only by Gyarados; except you don't have to put up with Magikarp. Water/Flying dosen't struggle or stand out in most boss battles; except for Clemont [Awful] and Malva [Good].

-Stats: Mantine is not an excellent attacker; but for a tank hit dosen't hit that weakly. Mantine's stats are all-around average; with the exception of a pretty massive Base 140 Sp.Def; and a pointless Base 40 Attack.

-Movepool: Mantine's movepool is unique. You'll have access to Surf the instant you get Mantine; which gives it what is arguably it's best attack in the entire game from the start. TM Acrobatics is also avaliable from go if you get it; which is more than enough for Ramos. Air Slash comes at Lv 36; and the move tutor gives Signal Beam and Psybeam as notable moves to change your coverage. Ice Beam comes from Wulfric; and TM Rain Dance can be obtained as soon as you get Mantine; which not only gives Mantine a power boost to help it clear multi-pokemon battles faster; but can trigger Swift Swim if that is it's ability. Rain Dance STAB Surfs are incredibly powerful; even from Base 80 Sp.Atk; and Swift Swim allows Mantine to outright sweep Malva and Dransa. Water/Flying/Ice coverage is excellent; freeing up that 4th slot for Rain Dance.

-Major Battles:
Ramos - Not awful; but not brilliant either. Better if you over-grind for Air Slash [36] or got Acrobatics; in both cases it can sweep.
Clemont - Yeah no
Valerie - Your high Sp.Def combined with Rain Dance Surfs actually makes Mantine pretty useful here. It won't be particularly fast; but Mantine can win here.
Olympia - Mantine can comfortably take on Meowstic or Silyglpyh; but is unlikely to defeat both because Slowking will come out between them; and Rain Dance would usually wear off between those.
Team Flare/Lysandre - Mantine is excellent here. The only danger Team Flare poses to it is the Electrike line. Mega Gyarados will likly out-muscle it; but it can handle the rest of Lysandre's team and happily absorb Intimidate.
Wulfric - Mantine can defeat Abomasnow with relative ease; and can hold it's own against Avalugg; although it will hit you back hard. Cryongal is a long and painful fight but winnable.
Rival - As a water-type; Mantine varies heavily based on your starter. The ideal scenario is fighting Chestnaught; but this means youy have Greninja and thus won't have Mantine. Mantine beats Delphox rather easily as well. Altaria dies to Ice Beam.
Seibold - If you have Signal Beam you beat Starmie. Don't Rain Dance.
Wilkstrom - You can easily beat at least one of his pokemon due to their generally low Sp.Def or weakness to water; combined with your steel resistance. Scizor tends to be the easiest due to you resisting Bug as well.
Malva - You have to be careful of Torkoal and Pyroar; who have coverage which hurts a lot; but Talonflame and Chandelure are easy. Torkoal and Pyroar need to be OHKO'ed.
Dransa - Set up Rain Dance; spam Ice Beam; win.
Dianthia - You actually hit 5/6 of her pokemon for super-effective. [Hawlucha; Goltergheist; Tyrantrum and Goodra]. However you must be very careful of Aurorus [It knows Thunder] and Goodra is difficult due to it's own massive Sp.Def so it may out-last you. You can't beat Mega Gardevoir; it has Thunderbolt.

Mantine is actually one of the strongest water types you can get immediately upon getting Surf; but isn't as strong later in the game as some other options. It's unique movepool and typing; combined with Swift Swim however gives you a reason to use it over other water types who hit harder; and Mantine actually performs rather well against several boss battles; even being usable in the Elite 4 and pretty great against Dianthia. [Capable of beating 4/6 pokemon with Swift Swim easily and it *can* beat Goodra] . It's helped a lot by Rain Dance and Surf's timing; as well as the fact it can grind the Desert with incredible ease to catch up due to it's Water/Flying type and Surf. Keep it away from Electric moves and it's actually pretty awesome.


I'm gonna nominate Yanma for E by the way. I'm not gonna do a hge write up for this; I'm just gonna say 'Look at it's level-up movepool'. They don't get a STAB until Lv 54 [Air Slash] and Lv 57 [Bug Buzz] They come woefully under-leveled being Horde only [Lv 10] Speed Boost wastes time very turn and Compoundeyes is useless for Yanma [Although Tinted Lens is good]; and it dosen't even have a useable move until Lv 27; and that's Uproar. Lv 33 Evolution is pretty late [23 levels after capture with awful stats] and it dosedn't even get usable TM's except maybe AA; from Base 65/76 Attack.

While it's lategame is actually good with Lens Double STAB; getting there...
Sigilyph is absolutely B-tier. Its typing is good for in-game purposes, has a pretty good Special Attack paired with a good Speed and decent bulk, has two good stabs (Psybeam / Air Cutter to start, which become Psychic / Air Slash), has cool coverage moves (Dazzling Gleam, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Charge Beam may help too), learns support moves like Thunder Wave or the Double Screens in order to support its teammates. It is, in fact, a Pokemon that will remain useful until the end, it won't be a deadweight at any level.

Mantine B-tier? I would rather see it in C-tier. It doesn't come that early and you need to be lucky in order to have Acrobatics vs Ramos (level 36 for Air Slash is unrealistic at this part of the game unless you're using Exp Share). Many trainers have random Electric/Rock coverage moves. I'd like to see other opinions but B seems a bit high.
Mantine is in the slow experience group, has very few useful special moves outside of water STAB for a long time and as you said, its physical attack is 40 - have fun with Wing Attack, Headbutt and the oh so useful Acrobatics.
Considering that it also triggers a 120 BP GrassKnot because its just so fat, you will not even beat Ramos 1 on 1. Acrobatics kills none of his Pokemon if you are realistic and assume a slight under leveling with his issues.

Even other main encounters were described by yourself to be potentially troublesome, like having difficulties to set up RainDance on Malva´s Pyroar (WildCharge is a OHKO?!) It always has trouble with physical attackers, so all the potential positive match ups against Hikers and Blackbelts get worse because bulky fighting types and Sturdy Rock types can often live Mantines attacks and might KO back with coverage moves or STAB.

To top it all off: Mantyke has an awful catch rate of 25 and it loves to use TakeDown... bothersome capture with the need to capture Remoraid as well.
It´s typing is nice, I give you that. But its performance is not good. D tier at most. I would even use Swanna more than Mantine.


Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
Gotta say from my own theorymon that Mantine is not worth B tier in the slightest. Considering you have to *also* catch Remoraid in order to evolve the damned thing (which is what has always put me off training a Mantyke) and you have even more time wasted trying to get Mantine.

C is probably closer to the mark, but I cant see it hurting any of Ramos' Pokemon with physical Acrobatics (maybe Jumpluff, but not Gogoat). It might even be only worth D tier, it's physical stats are horrible. I don't know how gamefreak managed to make the Pokemon the opposite of Skarmory so much worse.

I used Jynx in my latest game and it was reasonably solid throughout. Taking its performance from Frost Cavern onwards (where you can find wild ones) it was pretty good. However, mine had a MUCH better movepool than the ones you find ingame... Why did Gamefreak give it the most beast Physical Moveset ever??? D tier probably is close to the mark, she gets Ice Beam from the final gym and can take on Drasna (although watch out for Dragalge). She does come pretty late though... So E would be reasonable.


A distant memory
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Firing through some of the listed entries I proposed last page...

Chinchou: N/A -> D-Tier
Chingling: N/A -> E-Tier
Cubone: N/A -> D-Tier
Dedenne: N/A -> E-Tier
Mantyke: N/A -> D-Tier
Mawile: N/A -> E-Tier
Nidoran♀: N/A -> B-Tier
Nidoran♂: N/A -> B-Tier
Remoraid: N/A -> D-Tier
Slowpoke (Slowbro): N/A -> E-Tier
Snubbull: N/A -> D-Tier
Stunky: N/A -> D-Tier
Yanma: N/A -> E-Tier

Like before, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.

Agreed with most of what was said but I cannot see how Mantine is worth C-Tier at least. Just cannot. Air Slash does not come until like Gym Five or later for starters and Acrobatics is just piss poor... Yeah it is no better than D-Tier.

Still looking for input on:

Electrike (Y): C-Tier or D-Tier?
Exeggcute: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Ferroseed: B-Tier or C-Tier?
Gorebyss: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Houndour (X): C-Tier or D-Tier?
Huntail: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Mareep: C-Tier or D-Tier?
Roggenrola: D-Tier or E-Tier?
Sigilyph: B-Tier or C-Tier?
Slowpoke (Slowking): D-Tier or E-Tier?
Solosis: C-Tier or D-Tier?

EDIT: Updated list now live. Just 52 Pokémon left to tier!
Last edited:


A distant memory
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No discussion? Alright then. I might as well make the decisions myself...

Electrike (Y): N/A -> D-Tier
Exeggcute: N/A -> E-Tier
Ferroseed: N/A -> B-Tier okay okay i guess it can go to b
Gorebyss: N/A -> D-Tier
Houndour (X): N/A -> D-Tier
Huntail: N/A -> D-Tier
Mareep: N/A -> D-Tier
Roggenrola: N/A -> E-Tier
Sigilyph: N/A -> B-Tier see ferroseed
Slowpoke (Slowking): N/A -> E-Tier
Solosis: N/A -> C-Tier

That leaves 41 Pokémon from the Mountain Dex left to tier. Now to look at 21 of them for wild guess provisional tierings...

Barboach: N/A -> E-Tier (Uhhh... it seems like it is worse Quagsire... idk)
Basculin: N/A -> D-Tier (Adaptability is what makes it good enough for D-Tier? E-Tier I can agree with too)
Bellsprout: N/A -> D-Tier (Good choice for Valerie outside of Mawile... At least Grass/Poison-typing is very useful ingame)
Carnivine: N/A -> E-Tier (NOW I get to tier this thing instead of the Carvanha I mixed this one up with a month or two ago)
Dugtrio: N/A -> D-Tier (Comes in handy Gym 5 and for Team Flare I guess? Its bulk is terrible and its attack is mediocre although it has that killer speed)
Floatzel: N/A -> D-Tier (IDK at least it is speedy and has decent offences though frailty is a concern)
Foongus: N/A -> E-Tier (Then again, not all Grass/Poison-types are good ingame and Foongus I just cannot see doing well. D-Tier possible?)
Geodude (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier (I guess E-Tier can work... it is good for Malva though too bad Clemont can deal with it relatively easy outside of sturdy)
Haunter (w/o Trade): N/A -> C-Tier (Haunter is kinda decent and has a good matchup record from when you get it. Its frailty is an issue though)
Haunter (w/ Trade): N/A -> A-Tier (Mega Gengar is such an absurd and powerful mon The only reason why this thing is not S-Tier is because it comes quite late)
Lombre: N/A -> D-Tier (Seems decent I guess)
Pawniard: N/A -> E-Tier (Nothing sucks more than having shitty stats until like Lv. 52. Maybe the trade Bisharp is better? Good match-up record. Possible D-Tier?)
Phantump (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier (Looks very decent at the point of game you get it with Horn Leech and Phantom Force being two powerful assets)
Poliwag (Poliwrath): N/A -> D-Tier (I could see a case for E-Tier as its Fighting-typing does not help it much at all at the time you get it)
Poliwag (Politoed): N/A -> D-Tier (Looks better than Poliwrath at a glance I guess... I wish Drizzle was not a Hidden Ability for it...)
Pumpkaboo (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier (All sizes look good enough for D-Tier so I am not going to consider size. Decent STABs and okay match-up record helps it)
Quagsire: N/A -> D-Tier (idk... Anyone with Quagsire experience? E-Tier can work here)
Shelmet (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier (At least it is always going first and has a somewhat decent Sp. Attack but it is rather frail... Good for Olympia???)
Skorupi: N/A -> D-Tier (Very wild guess though it does not have a great movepool to start with and it will still be a Skorupi for Valerie... idk could be E-Tier)
Slugma: N/A -> E-Tier (Not seeing it anywhere above E though if you want to make a case for D, you can)
Stunfisk: N/A -> D-Tier (At a glance Stunfisk does not seem that bad with a decent neutral match-up record but it is pretty slow...)

Discuss I guess? (No objections means they will probably go into their proposed tier)


Corruption of Shadows
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The Bisharp you get from the trade should be D while Pawniard should be E. The trade one has an Adamant nature, a perfect attack IV, and boosted EXP going for it but Sucker Punch (which would have helped with its "meh" speed) is an Egg Move and it doesn't come until right before the 8th gym. E4-wise it helps against Drasna (watch out for Noivern's Flamethrower), Wilkstrom's Aegislash (the trade one has Defiant right?), Siebold's Starmie, and half of Diantha's team but is DED against Malva.
MAREEP! I fought for you! I'm SORRY! You're S-rank in my eyes you gorgeous ovis!

Of the new ones, the only one I really used is Mega-Gengar and it's pretty much worth it's A-rank. Definitely too late for S-Rank, but it's essentially Mewtwo in a bottle. I've also used Gourgiest (large size, not super large), and find it a D. Not awful, but a bit too slow and stall leaning for in-game runs.

The rest are getting slim pickings, mainly due to how late they are arriving. I don't see many standouts above C-rank for the Mountain Dex, except the few pre-elite four team fillers that don't require any effort (like Drudiggon and Durant for BW). Although I can see a case for Dugtrio rising to C rank, a really fast earthquake is handy even if it lacks oomph. Can anyone back me up on this?


My jimmies remain unrustled
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I brought this up in an earlier message:

Valmanway said:
Gengar (Haunter w/trade)


Route 14 (late-mid): You can catch Haunter a little after you beat Clemont, and a little before you fight Valerie. The second you catch Haunter, you can trade to evolve him into Gengar. Within Laverre City, you can receive the Gengarite, which can make up for being caught at a somewhat low level.


Gengar is a Ghost/Poison type, giving him an advantage against quite a few opponents through STABs alone. The dual coverage of Poison and Ghost is surprisingly excellent, being resisted by a few Pokemon in the game, whom are taken care of by coverage moves.


Gengar: 60 / 65 / 60 / 130 / 75 / 110

Mega Gengar: 60 / 65 / 80 / 170 / 95 / 130

Gengar, Mega or otherwise, is built with special sweeping in mind and nothing else. He's rather frail if you don't Mega Evolve, but he can live a hit well enough either way. His blazing speed mean he's almost always going to outrun his opponents, and his excellent special attack means he can easily dish out the pain. Overall, excellent stats.


Fairly wide: You can teach Gengar Venoshock as a decent STAB to start off with, as well as Thunderbolt for coverage, and he'll learn Shadow Ball a few levels after you catch him. You can also buy Focus Blast at Anistar City and teach him that if you don't mind the risk of missing frequently. At Route 19, you can find Sludge Bomb, which is pretty much Gengar's strongest attack, though that's very late in the game. In Route 20, you can find Energy Ball, though it's not very helpful at that point in the game. If you think you only need three moves on Gengar, you can teach him Strength if you really need it on the spot.

Major Battles:
A relatively clean sweep throughout the whole gym. Just watch out for Mawile, who is immune to Poison, and Mr.Mime and Kirlia, who can hit you with a super-effective attack. Other than those three, spamming Venoshock means you're golden.

Olympia: It's kill or be killed here. On one hand, your Shadow Ball can make mince meat out of most things in this gym, but at the same time, one Psychic-type move could be all it takes to crush you. On that note, Olympia's Slowking can likely live a Shadow Ball, even from Mega Gengar, and proceed to either use Psychic or Calm Mind. Meowstic is destroyed, but Sigilyph is a shaky KO, especially since she will either use Psychic to smash Gengar or Light Screen to basically make him near deadweight.

Team Flare: Not too much to talk about. If they don't have a Dark-type on their team, Mega Gengar doesn't really complain, and even if they do, he can throw Focus Blasts in their faces.

Lysandre(All): With Thunderbolt, Gyarados and Honchkrow/Murkrow are child's play, Focus Blast destroys Pyroar, and Mienshao/Mienfoo is generally not a big problem. Though Mega Gyarados can likely live a Thunderbolt, but likely will fall to Focus Blast, and without Focus Blast, Pyroar can be a bit problematic with Dark Pulse and having a Ghost immunity.

Wulfric: No particular disadvantage. With Focus Blast, you basically clean house, and Sludge Bomb can hit Abomasnow hard. Without Focus Blast, it's a so-so time for Gengar. The worst that can happen is Avalugg using Crunch, but that's really all he can threaten you with.

All Rival Battles: Gengar can vaporize Meowstic and Delphox with Shadow Ball, smash Greninja and Vaporeon with Thunderbolt, trash Absol with Focus Blast, and destroy Chesnaught with Sudge Bomb. Altaria, Jolteon, and Flareon aren't particularly threatening. I guess Flareon can hit you with Bite, and Altaria can use Confide to lower your special attack, but that's really not too much of an issue.

Wikstrom: Klefki and Probopass aren't that big of a deal; you can take care of them fairly easily. Scizor and Aegislash, however, are bad matchups, since they can live a hit and nail you with a super-effective attack.

Malva: Chandelure is destroyed by Shadow Ball, Talonflame by Thunderbolt, and Pyroar by Focus Blast. Torkoal isn't particularly threatening, and should be a 2HKO with Mega Gengar's Sludge Bomb at worst, though as Mega Gengar, Earthquake will be able to hit you.

Drasna: No particular match up, it goes either way. You hit everything for neutral damage at most, and the same thing vice-versa.

Siebold: Everything is killed off by either STAB, Energy Ball, or Thunderbolt. An absolute cake walk. Just don't let Starmie set up Light Screen, and you're good.

Diantha: You can hit 5 of her Pokemon super-effectively, with only Goodra being neutral at best. Aurorus can set up Light Screen, Tyrantrum can smash you with Crunch or Earthquake as Mega Gengar, Gourgeist can use Shadow Sneak, and Mega Gardevoir will most likely live a Sludge Bomb and KO back with Psychic, but other than that, a pretty easy battle. Just switch out against Gardevoir and maybe Goodra.

AZ: The most fearful thing here is Sigilyph hitting you with Psychic and Golurk with Phantom Force. Other than that, this fight's pretty easy.

Comments: Gengar's got a rough start, being at a low-ish level upon capture and not being available till you get your 5th badge, but the long-run is pretty good, I'd say. He's still a great Pokemon to use in game, but if not for these flaws, Gengar would have been an excellent Pokemon to use. His power as Mega Gengar is amazing, and despite starting off with a bit of a handicap, he can really pull some weight around late game. All things considered, I'd say Haunter (w/trade) deserves to be in A rank. B rank at the absolute worst.
I'm just curious, will Hydreigon be ranked here?

Hydreigon is a really rare Pokémon found in Victory Road's outer areas, in the spots where Flying-type Pokémon can swoop down. It's an endgame Pokémon, pretty much, but it does come at Lv59, which means it's only 4 levels away from the E4's Pokémon. On top of being a Pseudo-Legendary, it has amazing matchups against the E4: Malva doesn't stand a chance, Drasna is absolutely shredded, Wikstrom will have trouble with it, but Siebold stands more of a chance. Its wide special movepool makes it so that it can pretty much take anything on: Dragon Pulse for Drasna, Surf for Malva, Fire Blast for Wikstrom and Dark Pulse as a last STAB. Really powerful Pokémon with good in-game bulk. Overall, I think it deserves to be ranked.


A distant memory
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Kyuzeth: Hydreigon is classed with Zweilous (currently E) and from my personal experience / anecdotal evidence (catching as Zweilous then rare candy spamming till Hydreigon), it was quite hit and miss. It struggled to beat the victory road psychics for one due to being outsped and OHKOed by Dazzling Gleam (Alakazam and Espeon as references), Aegislash actually managed live a Dark Pulse in Shield Forme and OHKO back with Sacred Sword wrt to Wilkstrom and it has issues with Scizor unless you taught it Flamethrower (which you should). Klefki is also dangerous if you cannot OHKO it. Drasna is easy as long as you OHKO it. Malva is easy I agree. Siebold it will struggle. Diantha is quite an unfriendly matchup with the only good matchup being against Gourgeist. And this is a Lv65+ Hydreigon with not that much in the way of investment I was using.

Whether caught as a Zweilous or a Hydreigon I am struggling to see a case for D-Tier for it which is why it is currently ranked E-Tier on the tier list. Though I am open to arguments if anyone feels it should be higher.
Its A Random I would agree with most of your rankings. Most of the late comers are no game changing Pokemon apart from Gengar.

The Geodude line can be caught near the PowerPlant as a Graveler in the late 20ies and immediately evolved, so it can contribute against Team Flare and the electric gym and will catch up easily.
The serious flaw it has, is that Rock Polish will only be available when you reach the Move Relearner, otherwise it would trash Clemont and Valerie. Definitely recommend Sturdy though. This will allow for two kills against both gym leaders and others as well because it has Bullboze and RockTomb with an okay 45 BaseSpeed. But nothing that would give it anything above D tier.

One thing I would rank a lot higher is Lombre. I would recommend between C and B tier.
You can catch it either immediately after Valerie in mid 30ies or after Wulfric at nearly Level 60! Whichever you choose, it will be a major contributor against many opponents with a simple move pool of RainDance/Surf/GrassKnot->EnergyBall/Filler.
It is extremely flexible with the new unlimited TM teaching, because it learns many moves to enhance your team´s performance against GymLeaders, TeamFlare and especially the Elite Four.
The one thing it misses out on and the reason why I´m not adamant on a B ranking is the unavailability of GigaDrain during the game.
Just use it, it´s a great performer and wonderful to look at as well, dancing all night long :)
I might have missed it while looking through the first post, but Jynx isn't listed and should probably be ranked separately to Smoochum (which I see is currently unranked). Smoochum is a rare horde, while Jynx is findable in regular battles in the same cave and has a decent encounter rate. Plus Smoochum will be more underleveled due to horde's mechanics, so Smoochum is definitely lower than Jynx. Though I have no idea where Jynx should rank as I haven't used one in XY sorry :x


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Jynx and Smoochum for all intents and purposes are the same thing. I just take the lowest possible obtainable Pokémon in that line through normal means and use that as the entry name.


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Orange Islands
Having used Jynx, it's movepool is pretty terrible during the game (the section after you catch it).

I used Jynx in my latest game and it was reasonably solid throughout. Taking its performance from Frost Cavern onwards (where you can find wild ones) it was pretty good. However, mine had a MUCH better movepool than the ones you find ingame... Why did Gamefreak give it the most beast Physical Moveset ever??? D tier probably is close to the mark, she gets Ice Beam from the final gym and can take on Drasna (although watch out for Dragalge). She does come pretty late though... So E would be reasonable.
It's OK but mothing special. It can't muscle through Dragalge...

I used a Phantump/Trevenant and it was pretty good. It comes pretty late though which is a downside (it comes right before a huge section of ice types). You can teach it Shadow Claw right off the bat too. I'd probably agree with D/C tier range.

Everything else you've listed I pretty much agree with.
Jynx gets Frost Breath immediately. I think she can be very useful against the psychic gym.
Relearning Lovely Kiss is a great option as well and sure no bad investment.

The real problem is the missing psychic STAB, as both Psychic and Psyshock come just after Wulfric if I remember correctly.
That´s why Jynx might be a serious underperformer against Team Flare.
Flares dark types and Wulfric might be no problem if you get a hit with Focus Blast.
Drasnas Dragalge should be no problem with Psyshock.
In fact Jynx could easily knockout every somewhat dangerous Pokemon (apart from Malvas and that Steel type dude) from its capture on, but only if it hits ;)

Overall a shaky performance that relies a lot on low PP and low accuracy moves while being physically very frail.
Sounds like C or D for me, might be fun to try the next time

Catching Smoochum is a lot worse and Smoochum deserves a lower tiering for that reason. Have fun grinding to Level 38 to get Psychic...
We speak about 18-19 Level difference - a huge opportunity cost in game! Fighting Smoochum Hordes is also no fun, first you have to search forever and then you get to choose between sleep and freeze... how annoying.
E tier at best, even with 3*31IV.


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In case my previous post does not imply strongly enough, one line of Pokémon will be tiered the same unless under exceptional circumstances like trades and Charmander's version exclusive mega evolutions. Jynx / Smoochum is not going to be excepted.

The reasoning for this is because any decent player will go for Jynx and not for Smoochum and like I said in my previous post, they are basically the same thing for the purposes of tiering. It is tiered as Smoochum because of tradition (always tier as the lowest evo in the line that is obtainable) and it does not really matter since the write-ups will probably indicate "just use Jynx" or rather, assume you are using Jynx anyway. Similar to how, for example, Gligar and Gliscor were obtainable on the same route in B2W2 yet it was tiered as Gligar.
I have also used the Traded Bisharp on a run I did a while back. It gets an adamant nature and all, but the lack of EVs really hurts its potential for the Elite 4 fights, since everything is so high leveled. Since Aron (x) hasn't been decided for tiering, I'll add that Aggron is on the same boat is Bisharp.

Essentially, they both are obtained very easily, both sweep the last gym (ice type), and both have great movesets prior to the elite four. My issue with both is that they both lack the power to hold their weight in the elite 4, at least in my experience. For reference, Bisharp failed to OHKO Starmie with Night Slash, and Aggron failed to OHKO Pyroar or Noivern with stone edge. And given how slow they are, they are beat by numerous opponents

I say D-tier to both, their performances were very similar.

I am considering on starting a run for either X or Y, so I'll try to use at least 1 or 2 non-tiered pokemon.

Edit: I'm gonna attempt a run using Poliwrath, Avalugg, and Stunfisk for tiering, then 3 other supporters as well.

Edit2: Will be trying out Zoroark if I can catch it
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Magneton: B-Tier
Availabilty- Magnemite has to be bred from Magneton first, so I think Magneton should be ranked in its place. Magneton is found at the Lost Hotel. It's fairly easy to find on its own, plus its typing allows it to be even easier to find if one uses the Static and Magnet Pull abilities. That being said, you do have to wait until the Lost Hotel to find it. If you want to evolve it into Magnezone, just level it up at the previously journeyed Route 13, although evolving it is optional.

Stats- The high Sp. Attack has always been its main selling point, and it has okay defenses that can always be bolstered with an Eviolite. It's got an issue with speed, but the bulk and power are usually enough for it to deal with the right opponents. Magnezone is a little inferior due to the drop in Speed, but at least it allows you to use that Eviolite for something else. As for its ability, Sturdy should be the one to get, as that'll save it from any mishaps most of the time.

Typing- Its unique Electric/Steel is incredible STAB at the point of the game you get it onwards. It stands out quite nicely against the two remaining gyms, some of Team Flare, and most notably the Pokémon League. Fire, Fighting, and Ground weaknesses, though, completely stop it from being its best.

Movepool- Access to its STABs is all you really need of it, and luckily it gets both right away. TM Thunderbolt comes from Clemont. Flash Cannon is only a level or two away from when you caught it, and Mirror Shot is a good substitute until then. Thunder Wave and Metal Sound can be useful, and Magnet Rise (Lv. 62 though) is a nice way to stop incoming Earthquakes. The lack of any HM, support, however, is disappointing.

Major Battles- Too bad it's caught right after Valerie, as it would've destroyed her team. That's okay, though, as it still cleans through the remaining two gyms with ease thanks to its Steel typing.

Team Flare-- It's a good answer to all of Team Flare's Flying and Poison types. It's especially handy at taking out Lysandre's Murkrow and can even wall Xernias in Pokémon X (if catching it in a Master Ball doesn't suit you).

Rivals/Friends--Magneton's most effective against Trevor, but it can also be used to fight other pokes your friends have, like Tierno's Crawdaunt and Serena/Calem's Altaria.

Elite Four--Magneton should be played on and off here. You'd think it'd do well against Sierbold, but Starmie's Light Screen can be a pain to deal with if underleveled. Magnton performs well against the Klefki, Druddigon, Altaria, and Dragalge (w/ Metal Sound). If you really felt like it, you could also abuse Sturdy and OHKO Malva's Talonflame.

Diantha--Magneton makes quick work of Hawlucha and Aurorus and can match up well against Gourgeist. With Sturdy or Magnet Rise, it can handle Tyrantrum, and Mega Gardevoir only has Shadow Ball to use against it.

AZ--It only performs well against the Sigilyph but won't be doing much against Torkoal or Golurk.

Additional Comments- Magneton is a great Pokémon to have. It comes mid-late game, but really the late game is where it shines best. It's got power, solid typing, and a cool ability in Sturdy. It lacks variety in terms of team contribution and it doesn't handle type disadvantages well, but if you need a strong Electric or Steel type, look to Magneton for help.


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It also has a solid early-game thanks to early evo and a decent enough attack allowing it to be useful before its inevitable HM Slavery.

That said (guess who slacked again):

Barboach: N/A -> E-Tier
Basculin: N/A -> D-Tier
Bellsprout: N/A -> D-Tier
Carnivine: N/A -> E-Tier
Dugtrio: N/A -> D-Tier
Floatzel: N/A -> D-Tier
Foongus: N/A -> E-Tier
Geodude (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Haunter (w/o Trade): N/A -> C-Tier
Haunter (w/ Trade): N/A -> A-Tier
Pawniard: N/A -> D-Tier (Get the traded Bisharp)
Phantump (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Poliwag (Poliwrath): N/A -> D-Tier
Poliwag (Politoed): N/A -> D-Tier
Pumpkaboo (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Quagsire: N/A -> D-Tier
Shelmet (w/ Trade): N/A -> D-Tier
Skorupi: N/A -> D-Tier
Slugma: N/A -> E-Tier
Stunfisk: N/A -> D-Tier

I will update later and then deal with the last batch of mons but here are those I am undecided on:

Lombre: C-Tier or D-Tier?

idk yet on this thing so I guess I will leave it open for a bit longer.
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