It doesn't get boosted by Tough Claws, though.
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Pokémon X & Y In-game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
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It doesn't get boosted by Tough Claws, though.
Yeah, so? I don't think that it can muuscle past Avalugg anywho. Not to mention, it does get access to Flare Blitz upon Evolution through Move Relearner. Just because a Pokemon has something, doesn't mean it should use it.
C - Tier
-Availability: Gift pokemon at the start of the game
-Typing: Mono Water is a solid Typing, nuetral defenses to almost everything, and gets decent neutral coverage.
-Stats: Solid Defenses, but offenses are kind of lacking.
-Movepool: kind of meh. It gets decent coverage at the end, but early-mid game was kind of useless, not having decent offensive coverage or any base power on it's stabs.
-Major Battles: Really good against team flare (besides crogunk line) and has a few solid gym batles.
-Other: Just felt underwhelming on my playthrough, ended up ditching it for a magikarp I got through wondertrade.
No, no, and holy fuck no.
I personally trained Gardevoir, and of all the Pokemon in my team (Tyrunt / Charmander / Froakie / Lucario (event) / Roserade / Gardevoir), Gardevoir was easily the worst. I would sooner put all of the Pokemon I listed in my team as A tier before Gardevoir.
Let's review what really makes Gardevoir that cringing.
- Poison-types are not as commonly scattered early on throughout the routes. We see a variety of Bug-, Water-, Flying-, and Normal-types. Sprinkled around are some Fairies and such. The only Poison-types seen from trainers are Budew and Roselia and both are rare sights on trainers throughout the game.
The Fighting-types also don't show up too often until a little later too. So at the moment, Ralts doesn't get a jump on a lot of things. It doesn't hit for SE on anything.
To make matters worse, Ralts has ass for base stats. Even at low levels, I noticed its durability (especially physical durability) is horrid. I remember when I had Kirlia in Reflecting Cavern versus Sawk and Throh. Kirlia was struggling against them since Kirlia is guaranteed at best a 2HKO and Throh has enough physical bulk to take about 3 Confusions. Speaking of Confusion, chalk another disadvantage to that - Kirlia gets no strong Psychic-type moves... until Level 40 as a Gardevoir. That's horseshit. AND no Fairy-type moves until Move Relearner or the 6th Gym.
Conclusion? Ralts and Kirlia are not necessarily champions of Pokemon and they weigh down the team a lot from what I've noticed. Slow EXP gain also doesn't help their case, either. Once it's Gardevoir and it has a moveset the ball does roll out, but it's such a long time it's nuts.
And I mean look at the gyms if you must:
- 2nd Gym is Rock. Due to the lack of physical bulk, Ralts sucks.
- 3rd Gym is Fighting, so good for Ralts here.
- 4th Gym is Grass, and only hits SE on one of the Pokemon. To be fair, though, Jumpluff is kind of a pushover.
- 5th Gym consists of Electric. No real advantage either way.
- 6th Gym is Fairy. No real advantage here.
- 7th Gym is Psychic. No real advantage here unless you go out of your way to get Shadow Ball.
- 8th Gym is Ice. Weavile sinks you, but otherwise no real advantage here.
The E4 has Steel, Fire, Water, and Dragon. Of those, she does well 2/4 and of course seems to do well against the champion. Also just about anytime there's Team Flare she also seems to do adequate.
Honestly, I just don't buy her into A Tier. Ralts and Kirlia are pretty horrid and being stuck with Confusion until Level 40 is really bad. This is especially true when you don't have the offensive nor defensive stats to back it up.
While Rock Polish doesn't fix Dragon Tail's negative priority, it does at least patch his otherwise mediocre Speed problem. Really, Tyrunt and Tyrantrum's Speed issues are too easy to fix overall to really ignore that they hit hard, can take a hit, and still have enough Speed most of the time to deal with shit.Name: Tyrantum - B-D Tier (depending on other Pokemon rankings)
Availability: Just before the 2nd gym
Stats: 121 Attack is amazing and has a decent 119 Defence but has a really poor Speed stat
Typing: Rock and Dragon is great offensively but struggles defensively somewhat
Movepool: All it's real power moves such as Crunch, Rock SLide, Head Smash and EQ all come rather late.
Major Battles: Doesn't like the 2nd or 3rd gyms. Not overly strong in any type wise but that powerful attack stat allows it to hit hard in more neutral gyms like the Electric and Psychic gyms. Destroys Fire and Dragon E4if you're faster. Can help with Water and Steel in a pinch
Additional Comments: Strong Jaw allows for STAB Crunch to hit Psychics hard. Hard to level early on but that powerful attack stat really comes into it's own late game
I guess to be fair its performance for 2 gyms is awful, but it makes it up elsewhere in most cases. At least, from what I saw.
C - Tier
-Availability: Gift pokemon at the start of the game
-Typing: Mono Water is a solid Typing, nuetral defenses to almost everything, and gets decent neutral coverage.
-Stats: Solid Defenses, but offenses are kind of lacking.
-Movepool: kind of meh. It gets decent coverage at the end, but early-mid game was kind of useless, not having decent offensive coverage or any base power on it's stabs.
-Major Battles: Really good against team flare (besides crogunk line) and has a few solid gym batles.
-Other: Just felt underwhelming on my playthrough, ended up ditching it for a magikarp I got through wondertrade.
Name: Mega Blastoise - A-S Tier
Availability: After the 1st gym. Given to you level 10.
Stats: Sky-High 135 Sp. Atk with 120 Def and 115 Sp. Def is nothing to laugh at. Quite slow but if a few levels higher than the AI speed usually isn't an issue
Typing: Water is one of the best types in the game. Hits a lot neutrally and only resisted by Grass, Dragon and Ice.
Movepool: Learns the all-mighty Surf, Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse where the latter 2 get boosted by it's ability.
Major Battles: Has no real type strength against the gyms but is powerful enought o hurt in the Fighting, Fairy and Psychic gyms. Struggles with the Grass, Electric and Ice gyms however. Destroys the Fire E4 members while holds his own against Steel. If knows an Ice attack can be helpful in the Dragon as well.
Additional Comments: It's ability allows Water Pulse to be just as powerful as Surf and makes Hydro Pump incredibly powerful.
Eh, I don't really agree with either of these. I would put Blastoise in B tier.
Blastoise has some really solid stats, but that shallow movepool is a pain to work with. My Blastoise is at lv67 and I just beat the 7th gym, and its moveset is as follows: Return/Aqua Tail/Surf/Bite. Pretty bad for that level. I ditched Water Pulse for Surf because I didn't want to carry an extra HM slave in my party; Hydro Pump's low PP and accuracy makes it unwieldy for regular use. Most of its good TMs come way too late-game to be useful; Ice Beam is a reward from the last gym, Dark Pulse is just after thanks to requiring Waterfall. I have access to Focus Blast and Blizzard, but like Hydro Pump, too low PP and accuracy to be useful on a regular basis. I guess Bulldoze or Dig are ok options, but EQ isn't available before the E4 iirc. Having a lame movepool until the 7th gym at the earliest is a let down; not to mention it being weak to the dominant type for two of the those 7 gyms.
At the same time, it's better than C tier imo. It does have some really solid stats for a Pokemon at its level and can hold its own. It's not awful, but not great either.
Colonel M
I could not disagree with you more on Gardevoir, it swept the Elite Four and Champion all by itself, plus handled the final gym all by himself. Yes, stuck with Confusion, but look at the moves it gets through TM: Dazzling Gleam for STAB, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, among other things, explain how one move essentially fucks over a Pokemon like Gardevoir?
I could not disagree with you more on Gardevoir, it swept the Elite Four and Champion all by itself, plus handled the final gym all by himself. Yes, stuck with Confusion, but look at the moves it gets through TM: Dazzling Gleam for STAB, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, among other things, explain how one move essentially fucks over a Pokemon like Gardevoir?
It's very crippling throughout the earlygame. It pulls the weight later on, sure, but it requires training a Pokemon that doesn't pull its weight for a long time.
I guess I should going to start chucking things into tiers, based on what you guys say and all. Also it seems like no one objected to the instant tiering of some of the jokemons, so...
Azurill: N/A -> A-Tier
Ditto: N/A -> F-Tier
Luvdisc: N/A -> F-Tier
Riolu: N/A -> S-Tier
Scatterbug: N/A -> A-Tier
Smeargle: N/A -> F-Tier
Wobbuffet: N/A -> F-Tier
Firstly, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.
Anything not listed here means it is still yet to be tiered. I am not completely sold on S-Tiering things like Charmander in Y yet, because of its reliance on a Mega Evolution, though Dragon Rage is a good point. I might tier it S next time I update if it gets enough support? From what I understand, Riolu is good with or without Mega Evolution, so S is a no-brainer (Not to mention, the gift Lucario's fixed IV's allow max Speed, while wild Riolu have at least 31 IV's in at least three stats because it cannot breed). I completely agree with Scatterbug/Vivillon for A-Tier, I used one with Shield Dust in-game, and it never let me down for certain. It is just an amazing mon. Azurill is definitely solid A-Tier, with Huge Power allowing it to bomb everything, and not to mention, it always comes with at least three 31 IV Stats because Azurill cannot be bred. Finally, no one objected to the auto-tiering of Ditto, Luvdisc, Smeargle, & Wobbuffet, given how terrible they are in-game in general, so putting them in F is a no-brainer.
Other than that, keep up the good work folks.
Azurill: N/A -> A-Tier
Ditto: N/A -> F-Tier
Luvdisc: N/A -> F-Tier
Riolu: N/A -> S-Tier
Scatterbug: N/A -> A-Tier
Smeargle: N/A -> F-Tier
Wobbuffet: N/A -> F-Tier
Firstly, all tierings are provisional until this tier list is sent to C&C. If you disagree with the tiering of something in some tier, do not be afraid to speak up & say why something should be lower or higher; it will be considered. It also means you are still welcome to nominate something tiered for another tier or validate its tiering.
Anything not listed here means it is still yet to be tiered. I am not completely sold on S-Tiering things like Charmander in Y yet, because of its reliance on a Mega Evolution, though Dragon Rage is a good point. I might tier it S next time I update if it gets enough support? From what I understand, Riolu is good with or without Mega Evolution, so S is a no-brainer (Not to mention, the gift Lucario's fixed IV's allow max Speed, while wild Riolu have at least 31 IV's in at least three stats because it cannot breed). I completely agree with Scatterbug/Vivillon for A-Tier, I used one with Shield Dust in-game, and it never let me down for certain. It is just an amazing mon. Azurill is definitely solid A-Tier, with Huge Power allowing it to bomb everything, and not to mention, it always comes with at least three 31 IV Stats because Azurill cannot be bred. Finally, no one objected to the auto-tiering of Ditto, Luvdisc, Smeargle, & Wobbuffet, given how terrible they are in-game in general, so putting them in F is a no-brainer.
Other than that, keep up the good work folks.
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Honedge line for S, it's pretty obvious from what others have said. Basically combines the best two in-game types with killer stats and bulk. It completely owns half the gyms in the game by itself, too, and king's shield is just that good.
I've done several runs now; so I'll post several pokemon. I've specifically been attempting to use pokemon that I expected would not be used as much.
Note these assume you are not using ther EXP Share, and thus you are not stupidly overleveled to the point everything may as well be S-Tier.
Fennekin/Braixen/Delphox: - A Tier
Availability: Starter
Stats:
[Estimated]
Fennekin: 40/45/40/62/60/60
Braixen: 59/59/58/90/70/73
Delphox: 75/69/72/114/100/104
In all forms, Delphox is a special attacker, with a much higher special bulk than physical bulk.
Typing: Fire/Psychic is an unusual type combination, and has several advantages, such as Fire dealing with Psychic's weakness to bug, and getting past Steel types. Offensively, the combination is magnificent, although Delphox is vulnerable to Ground, Rock, Water and Dark attacks.
Movepool: Delphox's movepool is it's major letdown. Even taking into account it's TM pool, it doesn't have much [usable] coverage outside of Psychic, Fire and Normal. In addition, Delphox suffers from a lack of good attack in the midgame. It's best moves until Lv 34 are Ember and STAB-less Psybeam. However, Delphox does get some support moves; most notably Light Screen; which makes it's role as a specially-based tank even more noticeable.
Major Battles:
Alexia - Can sweep the gym solo without any grinding beforehand
Grant - Useless. May get in a solo hit on Amaura; however.
Korrina - Average. Un-STAB'ed Psybeam isn't anything to write home about; although it may have Psyshock is you are overleveled
Ramos - A joke. Even if your best Fire STAB is Mystic Fire; Jumpluff is a joke, Weepinbel is a joke, and Gogoat isn't much better.
Clemont - Average. Mystic Fire's Sp.Atk drop comes in handy, and Delphox is useful against Magneton in particular.
Valerie - Solid. Between resisting Fairy, Mystic Fire and Light Screen, there is little Valerie can do as you wear her down.
Olympia - Average; Shadow Balls are annoying, but it can handle Slyglyph and Meowstic with Light Screen.
Wulfric - Click Flamethrower. Maybe mix it up with a Psyshock on Cryongal.
Team Flare - Useless. Dark and Fire types are very common in the Team Flare battles.
Rival - Carries two Dark types, one of which being part Water. Pretty bad.
Malva - Solid; as long as it stays away from Chandelure
Wikstrom - Sweeps
Dransa - Mine actually did decent here, Psychic handles Dragalge; and does a fair job on the rest of her team. Light Screen helps against Noivern.
Seibold - Keep away
Diantha - Very good. Only struggles with Goodra and Tyrantum. Mine actually 1v1'ed Mega Gardevoir and won [Thanks to Light Screen]
Additional Comments: Would probobly be S-Tier if the rival and Team Flare were not so happy with their Dark-types; or if it got a better fire move earlier. It's movepool is like G/S/C Cyndaquil's was, you're stuck with Ember forever.
Ducklett/Swanna: - B Tier
Availability: Route 7; moderately common. Evolves into Swanna at Lv 35
Stats:
Ducklett - 62/44/50/44/50/55
Swanna - 75/87/63/87/63/98
Ducklett and Swanna are both mixed attackers; and neither are too frail. Interestingly; Ducklett with Evolte is almost as bulky as Swanna.
Typing: Water/Flying is a great typing, both on the offense, and in terms of taking hits. Look at Gyarados!
Movepool: Swanna's movepool is basically Flying, Water and Normal; as well as several support or annoyance moves, like Featherdance; Roost; Rain Dance and Tailwind. However, it does get a wide range of useful Water and Flying STABs, unlike other Water/Flying types.
Major Battles:
Grant - Can deal with Amaura; but will lose to Tyrunt
Korrina - Depends if it has evolved or not. Evolved, it can rip through the gym. Unevolved; it's still solid, but probobly won't sweep. Featherdance is great here
Ramos - Sweeps
Clemont - Absolutely useless.
Valerie - Average; no advantage or disadvantage; although it cannot Featherdance things.
Olympia - Suffers a little against Slowbro; but can probobly take out either Silyglyph or Meowstic.
Wulfric - Not awful, but not great.
Team Flare - Excellent. Swanna destroys their fire-types, and beat pretty much anything else thrown at it, except Manetrics. This goes for the Admins and Lysandre as well. Swanna can defeat Mega Gyarados by using Featherdance, or just set up for something else to do so.
Rival - Best if you picked Froakie, good if you picked Chespin, average if you picked Fennekin.
Malva - Can sweep, although has to be careful of Stone Edge from Torkoal
Wikstrom - Can deal solid damage, and cripple some of his team with Featherdances
Dransa - Pretty useless outside Featherdance
Seibold - Unlike Lysandre's Gyarados, Swanna can't deal with his easily due to Dragon Dance
Diantha - Can defeat her Hawlucha, Aurous and Goltergheist.
Additional Comments: Swanna is a lot stronger in X/Y than B/W simply because it comes earlier. Ducklett coming when you can use a Sharp-Beak boosted Wing Attack is great for that point of the game. Also Surf is stupid early.
Klefki: - C Tier
Availability: Route 15/16, Lost Hotel. Hard not to find one
Stats:
Klefki - 57/80/91/80/87/75
No spectacular stats. It isn't too soft, isn't too slow, and isn't too puny, but doesn't stand out either.
Typing: Steel/Fairy is an amazing typing. It brings two immunities [Including to Poison Status]; while only having two weaknesses [Fire and Ground]. The STAB's have good coverage as well, although Steels pose problems.
Movepool: Klefki gets what it needs. Foul Play is a godsend and can really smash some physical attackers. Dazzlng Gleam will be avaliable on capture, and it knows Mirror Shot on capture.
Major Battles:
Olympia - Very useful, due to the Psychic resist, Foul Play can deal heavy damage to her Meowstic.
Wulfric - Solid,although Mirror Shot isn't the best attack, Klefki resists Ice.
Team Flare - OK. Struggles against Fire-types, but does well against Darks; and Golbats.
Rival - Can almost sweep them, unless you chose Chespin, and with the exception of their Eeveelution.
Malva - Useless
Wikstrom - Can OHKO Ageislash with Foul Play
Dransa - Excellent, although may have issues with Draglage
Seibold - Stats let Klefki down here
Diantha - Not great, although it can beat her fossils.
Additional Comments: Prankster is a great boon for Klefki. I personally ran Foul Play/Mirror Shot/Dazzleing Gleam/Attract on mine. Even if Klefki cannot defeat a pokemon itself, there's always Attracthax, or Thunder Wave. Would be D if not for good matchups in most boss fights after you obtain it.
Goomy/Sligoo/Goodra: - C Tier
Availability: Route 14
Stats:
Goomy: 45/50/35/55/75/40
Sligoo: 68/75/53/83/113/60
Goodra: 90/100/70/110/150/80
No spectacular stats. It isn't too soft, isn't too slow, and isn't too puny, but doesn't stand out either.
Typing: Even with the Fairy type; Pure Dragon is still great.
Movepool: Strange. Goomy's initial movepool is pretty awful; but Water/Dragon isn't bad coverage, and it quickly learns Muddy Water. It's movepool remains pretty bad until Goodra; by which time it had Dragon Pulse, and can be tutored Power Whip. Also has access to Boltbeam. Personally my Goodra ran Power Whip/Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Muddy Water
Major Battles:
Valerie - Absolute dead weight
Olympia - Average. Her team generally has decent Sp.Def as well. Mewostic might lose.
Wulfric - Bad, although it's high Sp.Def may let Goodra take an Ice Beam.
Team Flare - Pretty powerful, although dislikes physical attacks
Rival - Not outstanding, although it has the upper hand against all three starters
Malva - Can sweep easily
Wikstrom - Poor. Klefki is a Fairy, Probopass is useless; Ageislash and Scizor can deal massive damage
Dransa - Trade situations. Beats her special attackers, loses to her physicals
Seibold - Strong, and can deal with most of his team, although it may struggle with Gyarados
Diantha - Strong against a fair amount of her team, but is unlikly to take out all three that it can beat alone. Useless against Mega Gardevoir.
Additional Comments: Takes a hit for it's evolution condition; may have been B otherwise. It's a powerhouse once it's evolved, and Sligoo is pretty solid in itself provided you keep it away from physical attackers. [And by that point it should be hogging Evolite anyway]
Bulbasaur/Ivysaur/Venusaur/Mega Venusaur: - S Tier
Availability: Shortly after the 1st badge
Stats:
Bulbasaur: 45/49/49/65/65/45
Ivysaur: 60/62/63/80/80/60
Venusaur: 80/82/83/100/100/80
M.Venusaur: 80/100/123/122/120/80
Venusaur is a slow tank with the ability to unleash solid attacks on both sides of the spectrum, although it leans towards the special side [Except in it's Mega Form; where it's defense is higher physically]
Typing: Grass/Poison isn't the world's greatest typing; but it's solid. Gets a lot stronger with Thick Fat.
Movepool: Venusaur's movepool isn't wide, but it is exceptionally useful. Due to early access to PoisionPowder and Venoshock, Bulbsaur/Ivysaur almost immediately gets a Base 65 STAB; which becomes a Base 130 STAB on a poisoned target. This is simply unmatched power in the early game, as the only other pokemon capable of STAB Boosted Venoshock at this point have far less sp.atk [Gulpin and Beedrill. Roselia is unlikely to be obtained without grinding for happiness at this point.]
When it comes to Grass STAB there are 3 main options, Petal Dance; Grass Pledge and Petal Blizzard.
Major Battles:
Grant - Can deal with Amaura; but will lose to Tyrunt
Korrina - Depends if it has evolved or not. Evolved, it can rip through the gym. Unevolved; it's still solid, but probobly won't sweep. Featherdance is great here
Ramos - Sweeps
Clemont - Very strong. Can sweep if it has Bulldoze.
Valerie - Venoshock
Olympia - Can beat Slowking
Wulfric - Can MegaEvolve and win.
Team Flare - Poor, due to weakness to fire.
Rival - Average; and sytarter-dependant.
Malva - Has to sit out
Wikstrom - Sits out, unless it knows Earthquake/Bulldoze
Dransa - Not useless, as it can get off Venoshocks.
Seibold - Sweeps
Diantha - Not that useful in this fight, unfortunetly. Usefulness varies based on moveset, from 'Useless' to 'Can possibly beat one or two'.
Additional Comments: This thing is stupid. I'd actually say it's better than Squirtle and Charmander, simply because of the raw power behind it's STAB moves early. Having STAB Venoshock and the means to trigger it's boost before it even evolves is just stupid. And Petal Dance isn't much better.
My Venusaur literally never even got down to red HP at any point in the game
Also, Razor Leaf for murdering early hordes to powerlevel, and Petal Blizzard for later ones.
Absol: - B Tier
Availability: Route 8
Absol: 65/130/60/75/60/75
Absol is a glass cannon; it's speed is middleing.
Typing: Pure Dark; not great, not bad.
Movepool: Absol has a pretty wide movepool; rangeing from support or utility moves such as Taunt, to Swords Dance; to powerful physical moves such as Night Slash; Psycho Cut and X-Scissor; to even a respectable special movepool. You'd think Absol was a Normal-type with it's movepool.
Major Battles:
Grant - Sweeps the Gym with Rock Smash coming off Base 130 Atk.
Korrina - Useless
Ramos - Can probobly sweep the gym because this guy is a joke, but I didn't use it.
Clemont - Can deal a lot of damage with it's attacks
Valerie - Bad
Olympia - Sweeps
Wulfric - Can deal with everything but the iceburg.
Team Flare - Average; becomes bad when they start using Scrafties and Houndooms.
Rival - Crushes their Mewostic lead.
Malva - Can beat Chandelure
Wikstrom - Annoyingly Sucker Punch hits Ageislash while it's still in Sheild Forme, so Absol is pretty bad here
Dransa - Can land powerful hits on her slower dragons, but is unlikly to take a hit
Seibold - Beats Starmie
Diantha - Can beat Golergheist, and Sucker Punch something if need be.
Additional Comments: Absol is mainly B-Tier because of it's use as a Disk-1 Nuke. Absol rips pretty much everything apart when you get it, due to it's Base 130 Atk, and outspeeding almost everything else at this point. Absol doesn't start to suffer until the very endgame, and even then has use with Sucker Punch. Sadly; the Absolite is post-game. However, if someone trades absolite over, Absol rises to S-Tier. If Absol was stronger latergame, it would probobly be A-Tier.
===
On some other topics:
Honedge - I'm thinking A; personally. I never had any issues against them in-game, and it dosen't seem too impressive due to speed issues. Ageisslash is great but comes late.
Charizard - I'd say A because it pretty much has to eat the Megastone, unlike Venusaur, who still crushes everything with or without it. S-Tier is for pokemon that crush almost the entire game without any effort, and Venusaur does that a lot better than Charizard, who you usually have to mega evo to kill things quickly, which adds time with the animation. Movepool issues early/mid don't help either; while Venusaur's movepool is stupid.
Note these assume you are not using ther EXP Share, and thus you are not stupidly overleveled to the point everything may as well be S-Tier.
Fennekin/Braixen/Delphox: - A Tier
Availability: Starter
Stats:
[Estimated]
Fennekin: 40/45/40/62/60/60
Braixen: 59/59/58/90/70/73
Delphox: 75/69/72/114/100/104
In all forms, Delphox is a special attacker, with a much higher special bulk than physical bulk.
Typing: Fire/Psychic is an unusual type combination, and has several advantages, such as Fire dealing with Psychic's weakness to bug, and getting past Steel types. Offensively, the combination is magnificent, although Delphox is vulnerable to Ground, Rock, Water and Dark attacks.
Movepool: Delphox's movepool is it's major letdown. Even taking into account it's TM pool, it doesn't have much [usable] coverage outside of Psychic, Fire and Normal. In addition, Delphox suffers from a lack of good attack in the midgame. It's best moves until Lv 34 are Ember and STAB-less Psybeam. However, Delphox does get some support moves; most notably Light Screen; which makes it's role as a specially-based tank even more noticeable.
Major Battles:
Alexia - Can sweep the gym solo without any grinding beforehand
Grant - Useless. May get in a solo hit on Amaura; however.
Korrina - Average. Un-STAB'ed Psybeam isn't anything to write home about; although it may have Psyshock is you are overleveled
Ramos - A joke. Even if your best Fire STAB is Mystic Fire; Jumpluff is a joke, Weepinbel is a joke, and Gogoat isn't much better.
Clemont - Average. Mystic Fire's Sp.Atk drop comes in handy, and Delphox is useful against Magneton in particular.
Valerie - Solid. Between resisting Fairy, Mystic Fire and Light Screen, there is little Valerie can do as you wear her down.
Olympia - Average; Shadow Balls are annoying, but it can handle Slyglyph and Meowstic with Light Screen.
Wulfric - Click Flamethrower. Maybe mix it up with a Psyshock on Cryongal.
Team Flare - Useless. Dark and Fire types are very common in the Team Flare battles.
Rival - Carries two Dark types, one of which being part Water. Pretty bad.
Malva - Solid; as long as it stays away from Chandelure
Wikstrom - Sweeps
Dransa - Mine actually did decent here, Psychic handles Dragalge; and does a fair job on the rest of her team. Light Screen helps against Noivern.
Seibold - Keep away
Diantha - Very good. Only struggles with Goodra and Tyrantum. Mine actually 1v1'ed Mega Gardevoir and won [Thanks to Light Screen]
Additional Comments: Would probobly be S-Tier if the rival and Team Flare were not so happy with their Dark-types; or if it got a better fire move earlier. It's movepool is like G/S/C Cyndaquil's was, you're stuck with Ember forever.
Ducklett/Swanna: - B Tier
Availability: Route 7; moderately common. Evolves into Swanna at Lv 35
Stats:
Ducklett - 62/44/50/44/50/55
Swanna - 75/87/63/87/63/98
Ducklett and Swanna are both mixed attackers; and neither are too frail. Interestingly; Ducklett with Evolte is almost as bulky as Swanna.
Typing: Water/Flying is a great typing, both on the offense, and in terms of taking hits. Look at Gyarados!
Movepool: Swanna's movepool is basically Flying, Water and Normal; as well as several support or annoyance moves, like Featherdance; Roost; Rain Dance and Tailwind. However, it does get a wide range of useful Water and Flying STABs, unlike other Water/Flying types.
Major Battles:
Grant - Can deal with Amaura; but will lose to Tyrunt
Korrina - Depends if it has evolved or not. Evolved, it can rip through the gym. Unevolved; it's still solid, but probobly won't sweep. Featherdance is great here
Ramos - Sweeps
Clemont - Absolutely useless.
Valerie - Average; no advantage or disadvantage; although it cannot Featherdance things.
Olympia - Suffers a little against Slowbro; but can probobly take out either Silyglyph or Meowstic.
Wulfric - Not awful, but not great.
Team Flare - Excellent. Swanna destroys their fire-types, and beat pretty much anything else thrown at it, except Manetrics. This goes for the Admins and Lysandre as well. Swanna can defeat Mega Gyarados by using Featherdance, or just set up for something else to do so.
Rival - Best if you picked Froakie, good if you picked Chespin, average if you picked Fennekin.
Malva - Can sweep, although has to be careful of Stone Edge from Torkoal
Wikstrom - Can deal solid damage, and cripple some of his team with Featherdances
Dransa - Pretty useless outside Featherdance
Seibold - Unlike Lysandre's Gyarados, Swanna can't deal with his easily due to Dragon Dance
Diantha - Can defeat her Hawlucha, Aurous and Goltergheist.
Additional Comments: Swanna is a lot stronger in X/Y than B/W simply because it comes earlier. Ducklett coming when you can use a Sharp-Beak boosted Wing Attack is great for that point of the game. Also Surf is stupid early.
Klefki: - C Tier
Availability: Route 15/16, Lost Hotel. Hard not to find one
Stats:
Klefki - 57/80/91/80/87/75
No spectacular stats. It isn't too soft, isn't too slow, and isn't too puny, but doesn't stand out either.
Typing: Steel/Fairy is an amazing typing. It brings two immunities [Including to Poison Status]; while only having two weaknesses [Fire and Ground]. The STAB's have good coverage as well, although Steels pose problems.
Movepool: Klefki gets what it needs. Foul Play is a godsend and can really smash some physical attackers. Dazzlng Gleam will be avaliable on capture, and it knows Mirror Shot on capture.
Major Battles:
Olympia - Very useful, due to the Psychic resist, Foul Play can deal heavy damage to her Meowstic.
Wulfric - Solid,although Mirror Shot isn't the best attack, Klefki resists Ice.
Team Flare - OK. Struggles against Fire-types, but does well against Darks; and Golbats.
Rival - Can almost sweep them, unless you chose Chespin, and with the exception of their Eeveelution.
Malva - Useless
Wikstrom - Can OHKO Ageislash with Foul Play
Dransa - Excellent, although may have issues with Draglage
Seibold - Stats let Klefki down here
Diantha - Not great, although it can beat her fossils.
Additional Comments: Prankster is a great boon for Klefki. I personally ran Foul Play/Mirror Shot/Dazzleing Gleam/Attract on mine. Even if Klefki cannot defeat a pokemon itself, there's always Attracthax, or Thunder Wave. Would be D if not for good matchups in most boss fights after you obtain it.
Goomy/Sligoo/Goodra: - C Tier
Availability: Route 14
Stats:
Goomy: 45/50/35/55/75/40
Sligoo: 68/75/53/83/113/60
Goodra: 90/100/70/110/150/80
No spectacular stats. It isn't too soft, isn't too slow, and isn't too puny, but doesn't stand out either.
Typing: Even with the Fairy type; Pure Dragon is still great.
Movepool: Strange. Goomy's initial movepool is pretty awful; but Water/Dragon isn't bad coverage, and it quickly learns Muddy Water. It's movepool remains pretty bad until Goodra; by which time it had Dragon Pulse, and can be tutored Power Whip. Also has access to Boltbeam. Personally my Goodra ran Power Whip/Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Muddy Water
Major Battles:
Valerie - Absolute dead weight
Olympia - Average. Her team generally has decent Sp.Def as well. Mewostic might lose.
Wulfric - Bad, although it's high Sp.Def may let Goodra take an Ice Beam.
Team Flare - Pretty powerful, although dislikes physical attacks
Rival - Not outstanding, although it has the upper hand against all three starters
Malva - Can sweep easily
Wikstrom - Poor. Klefki is a Fairy, Probopass is useless; Ageislash and Scizor can deal massive damage
Dransa - Trade situations. Beats her special attackers, loses to her physicals
Seibold - Strong, and can deal with most of his team, although it may struggle with Gyarados
Diantha - Strong against a fair amount of her team, but is unlikly to take out all three that it can beat alone. Useless against Mega Gardevoir.
Additional Comments: Takes a hit for it's evolution condition; may have been B otherwise. It's a powerhouse once it's evolved, and Sligoo is pretty solid in itself provided you keep it away from physical attackers. [And by that point it should be hogging Evolite anyway]
Bulbasaur/Ivysaur/Venusaur/Mega Venusaur: - S Tier
Availability: Shortly after the 1st badge
Stats:
Bulbasaur: 45/49/49/65/65/45
Ivysaur: 60/62/63/80/80/60
Venusaur: 80/82/83/100/100/80
M.Venusaur: 80/100/123/122/120/80
Venusaur is a slow tank with the ability to unleash solid attacks on both sides of the spectrum, although it leans towards the special side [Except in it's Mega Form; where it's defense is higher physically]
Typing: Grass/Poison isn't the world's greatest typing; but it's solid. Gets a lot stronger with Thick Fat.
Movepool: Venusaur's movepool isn't wide, but it is exceptionally useful. Due to early access to PoisionPowder and Venoshock, Bulbsaur/Ivysaur almost immediately gets a Base 65 STAB; which becomes a Base 130 STAB on a poisoned target. This is simply unmatched power in the early game, as the only other pokemon capable of STAB Boosted Venoshock at this point have far less sp.atk [Gulpin and Beedrill. Roselia is unlikely to be obtained without grinding for happiness at this point.]
When it comes to Grass STAB there are 3 main options, Petal Dance; Grass Pledge and Petal Blizzard.
Major Battles:
Grant - Can deal with Amaura; but will lose to Tyrunt
Korrina - Depends if it has evolved or not. Evolved, it can rip through the gym. Unevolved; it's still solid, but probobly won't sweep. Featherdance is great here
Ramos - Sweeps
Clemont - Very strong. Can sweep if it has Bulldoze.
Valerie - Venoshock
Olympia - Can beat Slowking
Wulfric - Can MegaEvolve and win.
Team Flare - Poor, due to weakness to fire.
Rival - Average; and sytarter-dependant.
Malva - Has to sit out
Wikstrom - Sits out, unless it knows Earthquake/Bulldoze
Dransa - Not useless, as it can get off Venoshocks.
Seibold - Sweeps
Diantha - Not that useful in this fight, unfortunetly. Usefulness varies based on moveset, from 'Useless' to 'Can possibly beat one or two'.
Additional Comments: This thing is stupid. I'd actually say it's better than Squirtle and Charmander, simply because of the raw power behind it's STAB moves early. Having STAB Venoshock and the means to trigger it's boost before it even evolves is just stupid. And Petal Dance isn't much better.
My Venusaur literally never even got down to red HP at any point in the game
Also, Razor Leaf for murdering early hordes to powerlevel, and Petal Blizzard for later ones.
Absol: - B Tier
Availability: Route 8
Absol: 65/130/60/75/60/75
Absol is a glass cannon; it's speed is middleing.
Typing: Pure Dark; not great, not bad.
Movepool: Absol has a pretty wide movepool; rangeing from support or utility moves such as Taunt, to Swords Dance; to powerful physical moves such as Night Slash; Psycho Cut and X-Scissor; to even a respectable special movepool. You'd think Absol was a Normal-type with it's movepool.
Major Battles:
Grant - Sweeps the Gym with Rock Smash coming off Base 130 Atk.
Korrina - Useless
Ramos - Can probobly sweep the gym because this guy is a joke, but I didn't use it.
Clemont - Can deal a lot of damage with it's attacks
Valerie - Bad
Olympia - Sweeps
Wulfric - Can deal with everything but the iceburg.
Team Flare - Average; becomes bad when they start using Scrafties and Houndooms.
Rival - Crushes their Mewostic lead.
Malva - Can beat Chandelure
Wikstrom - Annoyingly Sucker Punch hits Ageislash while it's still in Sheild Forme, so Absol is pretty bad here
Dransa - Can land powerful hits on her slower dragons, but is unlikly to take a hit
Seibold - Beats Starmie
Diantha - Can beat Golergheist, and Sucker Punch something if need be.
Additional Comments: Absol is mainly B-Tier because of it's use as a Disk-1 Nuke. Absol rips pretty much everything apart when you get it, due to it's Base 130 Atk, and outspeeding almost everything else at this point. Absol doesn't start to suffer until the very endgame, and even then has use with Sucker Punch. Sadly; the Absolite is post-game. However, if someone trades absolite over, Absol rises to S-Tier. If Absol was stronger latergame, it would probobly be A-Tier.
===
On some other topics:
Honedge - I'm thinking A; personally. I never had any issues against them in-game, and it dosen't seem too impressive due to speed issues. Ageisslash is great but comes late.
Charizard - I'd say A because it pretty much has to eat the Megastone, unlike Venusaur, who still crushes everything with or without it. S-Tier is for pokemon that crush almost the entire game without any effort, and Venusaur does that a lot better than Charizard, who you usually have to mega evo to kill things quickly, which adds time with the animation. Movepool issues early/mid don't help either; while Venusaur's movepool is stupid.
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Does turning off the animation turn off the animation for Mega Evolutions?
I found Charizard pretty much S Tier with Venusaur. Drought Charizard just engulfs everything while X is still respectable. Dragon Rage earlygame is broken as hell, too. Guaranteed 40 damage? Yes please.
I found Charizard pretty much S Tier with Venusaur. Drought Charizard just engulfs everything while X is still respectable. Dragon Rage earlygame is broken as hell, too. Guaranteed 40 damage? Yes please.
Nope. Still plays every time you transform :(
i have to agree with colonel m here on gardevoir. although it definitely pulls it's weight late game and pretty much solos all of team flare, the time it takes to get to gardevoir and the grinding you're forced to go through with confusion, up until level 40 ralts / kirlia / gard feel like dead weight. it felt as though my initial play through i was just focusing on gard "catching up" to the rest of my mons, and it never really handled anything another mon couldn't already do. furthermore, it's powerful, but it doesn't have the speed or bulk to do much with. imo, i would put it at B rank, or even C.
I think we need to evaluate Mega Evolution in general. To me it seems that Mega Evolutions, while take time, usually helped with ensuring OHKOes and such. I get that MEvo takes time, but I think we're weighing too much in the time cost. Nevermind basic 'zard is still solid.
......You're punking me, right? You're talking about what comes out to be a 270 base power attack after STAB, off of Base 130 Attack, and you think it can't muscle through something that's weak to it? If Avalugg survived that then either you were really underleveled or you let it sit there and buff for a few turns.
And that last sentence is absolutely right: just because MegaCharizard X has Flamethrower doesn't mean it should use it when it has Flare Blitz to play with instead.
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Because there is more to life than a sexy 270 base power move. Also if you bother to look around, Avalugg's estimated base defense is 184 and his estimated base special defense is 46. 270 base power or not, i'm pretty sure Flamethrower is going to do more damage.
Just because something has Flare Blitz doesn't mean that it automatically invalidates every other option for a Fire-type move. Flamethrower is a usable substitute, if only for the fact that you can dump it over some random crap like Power-up Punch or Brick Break and then re-teach it after the gym.
Just because something has Flare Blitz doesn't mean that it automatically invalidates every other option for a Fire-type move. Flamethrower is a usable substitute, if only for the fact that you can dump it over some random crap like Power-up Punch or Brick Break and then re-teach it after the gym.
To clarify you're sure as hell better off targetting Avalugg with Flamethrower than Flare Blitz. 95/184 vs 85/46? Uh. Yeah. This should almost be a no brainer.
To be fair:
68.9% - 81.6% - Flare Blitz. 0 Atk EVs, neutral nature.
171% - 201.8% - Flamethrower, same ordeal.
In that gym you're probably better off sweeping with Flamethrower anyway. Then again, Cyrognal might survive too. With lower chances, of course - 84% - 100.4%.
To be fair:
68.9% - 81.6% - Flare Blitz. 0 Atk EVs, neutral nature.
171% - 201.8% - Flamethrower, same ordeal.
In that gym you're probably better off sweeping with Flamethrower anyway. Then again, Cyrognal might survive too. With lower chances, of course - 84% - 100.4%.
I'm aware of its stats, and of course Flamethrower is going to do more to Avalugg percentage-wise (in case you didn't notice, I never said it wouldn't), but it doesn't matter if it's still going down either way.
The point I was trying to make on Flare Blitz v. Flamethrower is, thanks to Tough Claws, the sheer power difference between Mega Charizard X's Flare Blitz and Flamethrower is going to make Flare Blitz the go-to Fire move for the majority of opponents. The only reason Flamethrower is getting any mention here is because of one of Wulfric's Pokemon that has reverse-Cryogonal syndrome and doesn't appear on any other trainer's team again outside of the Battle areas, and even then the difference isn't much. It's not like Heart Scales are that hard to find, either.
Again, I'm aware of its stats, but where are you getting these damage numbers from? Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that you somehow have no offensive EVs and a neutral nature, I get 85.4%-102.5% from a Flare Blitz at an even level (and 90% max on Cryogonal with Flamethrower from the same), though with all the EXP that gets thrown at you it's not impossible to be a little higher at that point, even without EXP Share. Granted, it's not the guaranteed OHKO I was expecting, but that's still more than enough to "muscle past," even without any EVs.
...Anyway, that's enough on that. Whether you decide/need to use Flamethrower over Flare Blitz for a Pokemon, that doesn't change how powerful Mega Charizard X is, or where it should be tiered. I've said my piece, I'm done on the subject.
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These two quotes give me the impression you are here for speed run advice. This is not the goal of these tiering threads. While they tend to go hand in hand, efficiency does not = raw speed.
Raikaria great post. To the point and lots of info there. Surprised to see Swanna so high after its very mediocre capabilities in Gen 5 though.
So far in my game, Croagunk is still sucking badly and I am seeing what people mean about Helioptile. I haven't used Binacle enough yet to really tell how its going to be (Mine is Tough Claws), the same can be said about Golett.
Keep in mind that the mega evolution animation takes about the equivalent of three turns of combat. That adds up quickly, and should be taken into consideration.
IOS sort of broke it down for me.
I am well aware that speedrunning is not the equivalent of efficiency, but what I am asking is what specifically is the measurement for time's sake.
If it's turns, MEvos are not necessarily affected.
If it's animation / overall speed, then MEvos are affected.
When I originally did these I did mine based solely on real-time for efficiency's sake - primarily because time affects the trainer's capabilities and decisions overall. This also was because two turn moves were not as detrimental to the player as originally thought since the overall time it takes to execute is fairly minimal. Extra, definitely.
Alas, I ask this question because some people brought up the cost of Mega Evolving being real time wasted (which is a true statement). It's not to be a nag - I've had to define tier lists many times to help clarify these small details that can make a huge difference in tiering.
I am well aware that speedrunning is not the equivalent of efficiency, but what I am asking is what specifically is the measurement for time's sake.
If it's turns, MEvos are not necessarily affected.
If it's animation / overall speed, then MEvos are affected.
When I originally did these I did mine based solely on real-time for efficiency's sake - primarily because time affects the trainer's capabilities and decisions overall. This also was because two turn moves were not as detrimental to the player as originally thought since the overall time it takes to execute is fairly minimal. Extra, definitely.
Alas, I ask this question because some people brought up the cost of Mega Evolving being real time wasted (which is a true statement). It's not to be a nag - I've had to define tier lists many times to help clarify these small details that can make a huge difference in tiering.
I'm going to go through my team here - but these are very long, so I'm not going to post these back to back.
Hawlucha - B-Tier
Availability: Route 10, not difficult to find.
Stats: Hawlucha is meant to be a fast sweeper. In this respect, it goes very fast, outspeeding the clear majority of other Pokemon in the game and dealing decent damage (much more later on in the game, with HJK & Acro). That said, Hawlucha has mediocre at defenses at best, so it often dies in 1 hit.
Typing: Fighting/Flying is an AMAZING offensive typing, but it's a shitty defensive typing, being attacked with SE moves by electric, ice, fairy, psychic, and flying types.
Movepool: Due to not being horrendously unlucky with getting Acrobatics, I relied on High Jump Kick, Fly, and Flying Press (all of which you get through level up or is forced upon you). Flying Press is great against the majority of Team Flare's Pokemon (hi Scrafty), and High Jump Kick will KO the majority of things that Flying Press doesn't have the power to KO, given its not resisted. If you can get lucky with Acrobatics, then Hawlucha is stupidly OP for a long portion of the game.
Major Battles:
Gym Battles
Grant - Risky. If it still has Karate Chop, then it can pretty much solo the entire gym. If not, then all you have is Aerial Ace and Wing Attack for attacking moves.
Korrina - This can easily sweep the gym with STAB Flying Press.
Ramos - Easy sweep due to STAB Flying Press & Fly/Acrobatics
Clemont - Risky. No good against Emolga, but can be good against Magneton (if you can get around Sturdy) and Helioptile.
Valerie - Keep away.
Olympia - Keep away.
Wulfric - Risky. Can solo the gym, but should watch out for Avalugg (and to a lesser extent, Cryogonal).
Elite Four & Champion
Malva - Pretty good against Pyroar, and to a lesser extent Torkoal (but watch out for rock type attacks from from this).
Wikstrom - Haw major problems with Klefki and Aegislash. Can easily remove Probopass, and may have minor issues with Scizor.
Drasna - Alright, but there things better suited for this job.
Siebold - Great against Barbaracle, must atch out for Starmie and Gyarados.
Diantha - Can easily KO everything but Gardevoir (not SE against Goodra, but it has very low physical defense).
Team Flare
Great against everything they have but the rare Swalot. Flying Press is AMAZING against Scrafty, and everything else will be OHKO'd to either High Jump Kick or Acrobatics (Fly should do great against Toxicroak if you're as unlucky as I was).
Against Lysandre it's not great, with both Murkrow and Gyarados in his team.
Rival
Starter dependent, it can do really well - Chesnaught is 4x weak to Acrobatics. It has to watch out for Jolteon, as it is faster than Hawlucha and hits very hard with STAB SE Thunders. It should also avoid Delphox and Mewostic
Additional Comments: Why B rank? It has very little it can do against many of its main SE counters (aside from U-Turn), and gets easily KO'd to any neutral hit with decent BP that isn't good against. That said, it can multiple major STAB SE moves it can hit very hard.
Hawlucha - B-Tier
Availability: Route 10, not difficult to find.
Stats: Hawlucha is meant to be a fast sweeper. In this respect, it goes very fast, outspeeding the clear majority of other Pokemon in the game and dealing decent damage (much more later on in the game, with HJK & Acro). That said, Hawlucha has mediocre at defenses at best, so it often dies in 1 hit.
Typing: Fighting/Flying is an AMAZING offensive typing, but it's a shitty defensive typing, being attacked with SE moves by electric, ice, fairy, psychic, and flying types.
Movepool: Due to not being horrendously unlucky with getting Acrobatics, I relied on High Jump Kick, Fly, and Flying Press (all of which you get through level up or is forced upon you). Flying Press is great against the majority of Team Flare's Pokemon (hi Scrafty), and High Jump Kick will KO the majority of things that Flying Press doesn't have the power to KO, given its not resisted. If you can get lucky with Acrobatics, then Hawlucha is stupidly OP for a long portion of the game.
Major Battles:
Gym Battles
Grant - Risky. If it still has Karate Chop, then it can pretty much solo the entire gym. If not, then all you have is Aerial Ace and Wing Attack for attacking moves.
Korrina - This can easily sweep the gym with STAB Flying Press.
Ramos - Easy sweep due to STAB Flying Press & Fly/Acrobatics
Clemont - Risky. No good against Emolga, but can be good against Magneton (if you can get around Sturdy) and Helioptile.
Valerie - Keep away.
Olympia - Keep away.
Wulfric - Risky. Can solo the gym, but should watch out for Avalugg (and to a lesser extent, Cryogonal).
Elite Four & Champion
Malva - Pretty good against Pyroar, and to a lesser extent Torkoal (but watch out for rock type attacks from from this).
Wikstrom - Haw major problems with Klefki and Aegislash. Can easily remove Probopass, and may have minor issues with Scizor.
Drasna - Alright, but there things better suited for this job.
Siebold - Great against Barbaracle, must atch out for Starmie and Gyarados.
Diantha - Can easily KO everything but Gardevoir (not SE against Goodra, but it has very low physical defense).
Team Flare
Great against everything they have but the rare Swalot. Flying Press is AMAZING against Scrafty, and everything else will be OHKO'd to either High Jump Kick or Acrobatics (Fly should do great against Toxicroak if you're as unlucky as I was).
Against Lysandre it's not great, with both Murkrow and Gyarados in his team.
Rival
Starter dependent, it can do really well - Chesnaught is 4x weak to Acrobatics. It has to watch out for Jolteon, as it is faster than Hawlucha and hits very hard with STAB SE Thunders. It should also avoid Delphox and Mewostic
Additional Comments: Why B rank? It has very little it can do against many of its main SE counters (aside from U-Turn), and gets easily KO'd to any neutral hit with decent BP that isn't good against. That said, it can multiple major STAB SE moves it can hit very hard.
- Status