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Finally got a bit of time to make some progress and cleared the Oppelucid gym. I went in with a team of level 42 Pokemon, save for the level 45 Golurk.
Leavanny mowed through the first three gym trainers with critical hit after critical hit. Otherwise, it 2KOs Fraxure, though that's dangerous as it'll set up Dragon Dance and outspeed next turn. Probably not a problem against Iris' because of Dragon Tail's negative priority. I didn't use it against Druddigon or Haxorus, though.
Samurott couldn't hit worth a thing with Blizzard, so I can't comment on how well that does. It's super-effective, but it'll probably miss entirely unless you set up Hail first. (which is inefficient)
I used Golurk against a trainer's Druddigon, and it barely missed the KO despite 4 level's difference. Not a good sign for future performances when facing opponents of equal or higher levels...
Conkeldurr... I think I'm starting to regret giving up on Bulk Up. Just 2KOs without it. I may go back and relearn it. Lesson learned, I guess, though Hammer Arm is just a couple of levels away.
Darmanitan struggled a bit here since neither Hammer Arm nor Thrash benefit from Sheer Force, though it still 2KOs things. A tier definitely seems more appropriate for it from this perspective.
Now, for the star of the team. The one who drilled its way straight through Iris' team without so much as a scratch. Excadrill set up Swords Dance while her Fraxure sets up Dragon Dance. Fraxure then falls to a +2 Earthquake while trying for Dragon Tail. Excadrill proceeds to spam EQ against Iris' remaining Pokemon, a OHKO each. (I think Haxorus went for Dragon Dance) Still a solid S tier so far.
I definitely want to use Leavanny again in my next play through, as this current one might have a terrible Attack IV and that may make a difference. Does that help, DrumstickGaming?
Finally got a bit of time to make some progress and cleared the Oppelucid gym. I went in with a team of level 42 Pokemon, save for the level 45 Golurk.
Leavanny mowed through the first three gym trainers with critical hit after critical hit. Otherwise, it 2KOs Fraxure, though that's dangerous as it'll set up Dragon Dance and outspeed next turn. Probably not a problem against Iris' because of Dragon Tail's negative priority. I didn't use it against Druddigon or Haxorus, though.
Samurott couldn't hit worth a thing with Blizzard, so I can't comment on how well that does. It's super-effective, but it'll probably miss entirely unless you set up Hail first. (which is inefficient)
I used Golurk against a trainer's Druddigon, and it barely missed the KO despite 4 level's difference. Not a good sign for future performances when facing opponents of equal or higher levels...
Conkeldurr... I think I'm starting to regret giving up on Bulk Up. Just 2KOs without it. I may go back and relearn it. Lesson learned, I guess, though Hammer Arm is just a couple of levels away.
Darmanitan struggled a bit here since neither Hammer Arm nor Thrash benefit from Sheer Force, though it still 2KOs things. A tier definitely seems more appropriate for it from this perspective.
Now, for the star of the team. The one who drilled its way straight through Iris' team without so much as a scratch. Excadrill set up Swords Dance while her Fraxure sets up Dragon Dance. Fraxure then falls to a +2 Earthquake while trying for Dragon Tail. Excadrill proceeds to spam EQ against Iris' remaining Pokemon, a OHKO each. (I think Haxorus went for Dragon Dance) Still a solid S tier so far.
I definitely want to use Leavanny again in my next play through, as this current one might have a terrible Attack IV and that may make a difference. Does that help, DrumstickGaming?
Yeah it does! Does Leavanny feel like a C or B tier to you? Yeah bad gyms, but you could set up on E4 with smart screens.
Also Druddigon is surpassing my expectations. You get it's full moveset almost immediately, it levels up fast, and it packs quite a bit of power. Hard to find optimally due to 10% and 50/50 ability on top of nature.
Yeah it does! Does Leavanny feel like a C or B tier to you? Yeah bad gyms, but you could set up on E4 with smart screens.
Also Druddigon is surpassing my expectations. You get it's full moveset almost immediately, it levels up fast, and it packs quite a bit of power. Hard to find optimally due to 10% and 50/50 ability on top of nature.
Right now, I'd put it at a very high C or low B. It has to watch its match ups carefully, (Grass/Bug is VERY unfortunate defensively) but at least it has two decently strong STAB moves throughout and get upgraded at about the same time later, and Leavanny doesn't hit like a wet paper bag. And hey, Swords Dance is also just around the corner for it for me, so maybe I can finally give that a try. (would've been happy if it and Entrainment were swapped around in its level up pool, but whatever)
Got a Naive Druddigon with Sheer Force. I didn't remember to screenshot the IVs but the speed was about perfect, other stats decent (I think defenses were around 10 or so, and Attack was like 19?). Probably forgot to capture the IVs because I had to find 5 for optimal nature and EVs (1 of em got like a 0-1 in Attack, others were like Timid and Modest).
Drudd caught up to others with Twist Mountain training. Trained on water routes too. Not gonna do this again as it gives you a sizable level advantage. However, there is no excuse for not being 46-50s at E4 with all the training spots you have-the water routes have quite a few fully evolved mons that pair great with Lucky Egg.
Now the matchupss: Whimiscott: Decent. Vanillish tends to Acid Armor, and even Frost Breath does slightly over half while you 2HKO.
You can actually live a Frost Breath and Icicle Crash from Beartic with some healing and proper rolls, though you likely aren't killing Beartic or Cryogonal (even with Charm Beartic can crit or confuse you with Swagger while it's likely a 3HKO with Miracle Seed). Druddigon: Uh, this was better than expected! Mine outsped and OHKOed Vanillish with Rock Slide. Rock Slide knocks Beartic to low yellow while it tends to Swagger you. With a Persim Berry from 3 minutes of backtracking you get +2 Attack, kill Bear, take a Aurora Beam still in green from Cryogonal, and sweep. Not horrible like on paper, though that might be due to my Speed IVs and nature (Vanillish is 59 Speed, Beartic is 50, compared to Druddigon's base 48).
I'd wager you can at least take on either Beartic or Cryogonal disregarding my good IVs (you can probably creep Beartic, but if it Swaggers and you Persim Berry you should OHKO. Archeops: Arcrobatics, Rock Slide, Acrobatics, I'm done already? You can do this without Hard Stone Rock Slide btw. Audino: 3 Echoed Voices kill Vanillish while it usually uses Acid Armor or Frost Breath to do like 28 damage. You knock Beartic down to half with Echoed Voice 4, while Icicle Crash hits you to yellow and you KO next turn. You get hit by Cyogona's Aurora Beam for like no damage, knock it down to red with Return, then after a healing loop it hits you down to low HP and you kill. Easy enough to do without a Persim Berry, but that can be helpful. I don't have Silk Scarf on yet. Emboar: Used Charcoal. You outspeed and OHKO Vanillish with Flame Charge. Hammer Arm OHKOs Beartic. Heat Crash 2HKOs Beartic while it hits with lol Brine. You can OHKO Beartic with Hammer ArYm if you want. If you are at +1 Speed you outspeed and OHKO Cryogonal though it can't really do much to you even if it does outspeed. Easy sweep. Excadrill: Kill Vanillish with EQ without boosts. Beartic will need Hone Claws or SD to kill. You outspeed and likely OHKO Cryogonal without any boosts.
Got a Naive Druddigon with Sheer Force. I didn't remember to screenshot the IVs but the speed was about perfect, other stats decent (I think defenses were around 10 or so, and Attack was like 19?). Probably forgot to capture the IVs because I had to find 5 for optimal nature and EVs (1 of em got like a 0-1 in Attack, others were like Timid and Modest).
Drudd caught up to others with Twist Mountain training. Trained on water routes too. Not gonna do this again as it gives you a sizable level advantage. However, there is no excuse for not being 46-50s at E4 with all the training spots you have-the water routes have quite a few fully evolved mons that pair great with Lucky Egg.
Now the matchupss: Whimiscott: Decent. Vanillish tends to Acid Armor, and even Frost Breath does slightly over half while you 2HKO.
You can actually live a Frost Breath and Icicle Crash from Beartic with some healing and proper rolls, though you likely aren't killing Beartic or Cryogonal (even with Charm Beartic can crit or confuse you with Swagger while it's likely a 3HKO with Miracle Seed). Druddigon: Uh, this was better than expected! Mine outsped and OHKOed Vanillish with Rock Slide. Rock Slide knocks Beartic to low yellow while it tends to Swagger you. With a Persim Berry from 3 minutes of backtracking you get +2 Attack, kill Bear, take a Aurora Beam still in green from Cryogonal, and sweep. Not horrible like on paper, though that might be due to my Speed IVs and nature (Vanillish is 59 Speed, Beartic is 50, compared to Druddigon's base 48).
I'd wager you can at least take on either Beartic or Cryogonal disregarding my good IVs (you can probably creep Beartic, but if it Swaggers and you Persim Berry you should OHKO. Archeops: Arcrobatics, Rock Slide, Acrobatics, I'm done already? You can do this without Hard Stone Rock Slide btw. Audino: 3 Echoed Voices kill Vanillish while it usually uses Acid Armor or Frost Breath to do like 28 damage. You knock Beartic down to half with Echoed Voice 4, while Icicle Crash hits you to yellow and you KO next turn. You get hit by Cyogona's Aurora Beam for like no damage, knock it down to red with Return, then after a healing loop it hits you down to low HP and you kill. Easy enough to do without a Persim Berry, but that can be helpful. I don't have Silk Scarf on yet. Emboar: Used Charcoal. You outspeed and OHKO Vanillish with Flame Charge. Hammer Arm OHKOs Beartic. Heat Crash 2HKOs Beartic while it hits with lol Brine. You can OHKO Beartic with Hammer ArYm if you want. If you are at +1 Speed you outspeed and OHKO Cryogonal though it can't really do much to you even if it does outspeed. Easy sweep. Excadrill: Kill Vanillish with EQ without boosts. Beartic will need Hone Claws or SD to kill. You outspeed and likely OHKO Cryogonal without any boosts.
But it's not efficient to backtrack for those battles, so that may go against the spirit of an efficient run. (granted, having Fly may make some backtracking more tolerable...)
But it's not efficient to backtrack for those battles, so that may go against the spirit of an efficient run. (granted, having Fly may make some backtracking more tolerable...)
Drudd caught up to others with Twist Mountain training. Trained on water routes too. Not gonna do this again as it gives you a sizable level advantage.
Indeed. I acknowledged this in my post.
I tried to find my old posts for where I was around Brycen.
In the Stoutland run with 4 I had 2 41s and 2 43s.
In my six mon run I had 40, 40, 38, 39, 41, and 39.
I will admit I was a little overleveled for my current run. Despite this, Brycen is really, really easy. I doubt things would've been different for my other members even if they were around 40.
Tested Druddigon again. Dragon Claw knocks Vanillish to red so I assume Rock Slide is a clean OHKO even if you knock off a couple levels. With Yache Berry you live Icicle Crash in green. Without Yache Berry you cleanly live an Icicle Crash at 29 HP, with another attempt living at 41 HP. Sure, flinch chance, but also 15% miss chance. I'm gonna assume even with a few lower levels you live Icicle Crash. It's not like you're gonna use the Yache Berry anywhere else either.
In low green from Yache, you live a Aurora Beam from Cryogonal easily at 33 HP.
Gonna test a boxed Druddigon elevated by five Rare Candies to 37, Quiet nature. IVs at level 32:
That's pretty much some of the worst IVs you can have, so this is a worst case scenario.
Vanillish goes first and uses Acid Armor. Rock Slide is a 2HKO. If it keeps using it, yeah you can't beat Vanillish. Just have something else take care of it.
Beartic outspeeds and goes for Swagger. Persim Berry gets you out of confusion and you kill with Rock Slide. With some wasting time in retests my Druddigon lived a non-Yache Icicle Crash at 5 HP. Remember this is with no EVs at all. Beartic almost always goes for Swagger first turn as well, and it even went for Slash over Icicle Crash on two different occasions. Cryogonal Aurora Beam does roughly half (53/109 HP) so you should live a Frost Breath at 80 BP factoring in the crit, killing with Revenge.
Thus, I am going to conclude that this a good matchup for pretty much any Druddigon even adequately leveled. If you live an Icicle Crash with a 2-4 IV in Defense with no EVs and you always OHKO Beartic with +2 Rock Slide (remember a 0 IV in Attack) as well as living and killing Cryogonal with more than enough HP to spare, I am going to conclude this matchup is pretty great with the optimal strat being Persim Berry. You might not sweep but 2/3 is not bad at all. At absolute worst you should still beat Cryogonal, but this is unlikely since Beartic almost always goes for Swagger first.
With these parameters, I think it is educated enough that even a slightly lower leveled Druddigon would still do okay here. As Persim Berry takes two minutes to backtrack to and one optional trainer fight to get (who is literally the first trainer on Route 17), I think this is just as efficient as Audino Guard Spec. against Burgh. What do you all think?
N:
Gigalith: With no Defense boosts, Zekrom 3HKOes with Fusion Bolt. Set up 3 Iron Defenses though and it cannot do much. Zen Headbutt also is a contact move, so RHelmet damage came into effect. The battle became a bit slow but Gigalith eventually won. I'm sure this is an even better matchup against Reshiram, not including Reflect. Zoroark OHKOes Gigalith with FBlast if not at full HP. Without switching out constantly and hoping on FBlast misses, I think this one is a bad matchup, but Stone Edge 2HKOes anyways. Klinklang has Flash Cannon and 2HKOes with it. Bulldoze is not enough to 2HKO it. Carracosta 2HKOs with Waterfall, and I setup Iron Defense. After that, I healed, and set up 2 more. While hitting me with Waterfall, it got RHelmet damage. After being done with setting, Waterfall barely did damage and I was able to finish it off what was left. Vanillue tried to set Hail, and my Stone Edge OHKOed it. Archeops' Stone Edge didn't do much due to Defense boosts from earlier and was OHKOed by 3 hits of Rock Blast.
matchup: slightly positive
Cinccino: Zekrom outsped and OHKOed it with Fusion Bolt. Klinklang goes for Metal Sound, so you can Encore it. If you have Wake Up Slap (I didn't), the battle becomes faster. 14 hits of Tail Slap are needed to KO this. Zoroark outsped and would have KOed with Focus Blast, if it didn't miss. 4 hits were needed to KO this, but the matchup relies on too much luck. Vanilluxe needs 5 hits of Rock Blast to be KOed. Luckily, my Cinccino survived a Blizzard as well. Carracosta needs 5 Bullet Seeds to faint. Its Aqua Jet was 3HKO on my Cinccino, so Waterfall would be a 2HKO. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOes with Acrobatics.
matchup: between okay and slightly positive.
Sawk: Zen Headbutt is 2HKO on this and Zekrom also outspeeds, so I set up with Bulk Up and spammed Hyper Potions until I set up at +6. +6 CC OHKOes Zekrom. Klinklang outspeeds but uses Metal Sound so you OHKO with Low Sweep with the same boost. Vanilluxe came in and used Blizzard. Fortunately, I had Sturdy so I was able to survive and OHKO with Low Sweep. I used a Hyper Potion against Zoroark and I was lucky that Focus Blast missed so OHKOed with Low Sweep. +5 Defense helped me deal with Archeops and Carracosta, which are OHKOed and 2HKOed, respectively, the latter due to Sturdy. Sawk cannot his whole team at once, unless you are lucky, but majorly contributes
matchup: positive
Chandelure: I burned Zekrom and its Fusion Bolts became 3HKOs. Shadow Ball + burn damage took a while to take it down due to Light Screen. In the end, Chandy won this matchup. Carracosta cannot be OHKOed and in turn OHKOs back Chandelure. Burned attacks 2HKO. Furthermore, it can revenge kill it with Aqua Jet. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge. You'd need Stone Edge missing to burn it. At full health, Chandelure survives a non-crit Night Slash from Zoroark and OHKOs with Fire Blast. Burn it and I think it becomes 3HKO again. Vanilluxe outspeeds, but tries to set up Hail as well. FBlast OHKOes. Finally, Klinklang outspeeds and goes for Tbolt, but it doesn't do much, so FBlast OHKOes it as well
matchup: slightly positive, takes out 4/6 of his team and autoloses to 2 of them
Gothitelle: Zekrom sets up Light Screen and Goth doesn't do much, then dies. Gothtelle's Psychic 2HKOs Carracosta and survives a Crunch. Psychic 3HKOes Archeops, which in turn 2HKOs with Acrobatics. No way to win this matchup. Klinklang Metal Sounds and stomps with Flash Cannon, with no ways of hitting it. Zoroark is obvious. Vanilluxe is not 2HKOed by any attack and 2HKOes it with Blizzard.
matchup: almost bad, at least beats Carracosta
Ghetsis:
Gigalith: Cofagrigus is 3HKOed by Stone Edge. Shadow Ball + Toxic wears it out so Gigalith basically lost this matchup. Only way of winnig this is if one Stone Edge crits, then it becomes a 2HKO. You can, however, heal off the Toxic damage on the turns it Protects, so this might not be completely lost hope. Hydreigon is 3HKOed as well, and Focus Blast 2HKOes from full health since Sturdy. No way to win this. Bouffalant's EQ is a 3HKO and you can set up Iron Defense to max. 9 Rock Blasts are needed to KO it, which are equivalent to 3 Stone Edges from practical experience. Seismitoad has Muddy Water to ignore your Defense boosts. Bisharp, I set up Iron Defense and Night Slash very little. Its Night Slashes triggered RHelmet and I finished off with Bulldoze when it was in range. Eelektross' only special move is Flamethrower, so with Iron Defense, you easily win this matchup.
Matchup: okay I would say
Chandelure: Cofagrigus is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Luckily, Chandy can also survive a Shadow Ball. Matchup with Hydreigon is obvious, I don't think I even need to elaborate anything on this. Burned Bouffalant's EQ is only a 3HKO on it. Fire Blast is a 3HKO as well. Seismitoad is also kind of obvious of how it's gonna go. Bisharp was outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast. Burned Eelektross' Crunch is a 3HKO only, and is also 2HKOed by Fire Blast.
matchup: between okay and positive, due to autolosing to 2 threats.
Gothitelle: Gothitelle 3HKOs Cofag with Shadow Ball. If you predict correclty the Toxic + Protect thingies so you can heal off the poison while it tries to Protect, you might actually win this, but this is dependant on the AI's behavior. Bisharp and Hydreigon are automatic losses. Bouffalant isn't even 3HKOed by Psychic and 2HKOs Goth wit Head Charge. Gothitelle 3HKOs Eelektross with Psychic but is 2HKOed itself by Crunch, so bad matchup. Seismitoad 2HKOs Goth with EQ and is only 3HKOed with Psychic.
matchup: same as N.
Cinccino: You can Encore Cofagrigus into Protect. 11 Bullet Seeds are needed to KO this thing. Hydreigon outspeeds and OHKOs with Focus Blast. Bouffalant OHKOs with Head Charge and you have no ways of KOing it without too many crits. Eelektross was KOed with 6 hits in total and Cinccino survives an Acrobatics. Bisharp can be OHKOed with Wake Up Slap, but as I mentioned before, I didn't have it. Seismitoad needs 3 Bullet Seeds to be KOed
matchup: okay
Sawk: I forgot to teach it Payback again, but I doubt it'd make a difference against Cofagrigus, which can Toxic + Protect you. Bouffalant is sometimes OHKOed, sometimes 2HKOed by unboosted Close Combat, I guess roll damages. I think the chance to OHKO is higher, judging by previous attempts with the previous mons. Hydreigon doesn't OHKO you if you have no drops (if you have Sturdy, doesn't matter as long as you at full health) and you can Low Sweep it to slow it down and outspeed the next turn with Close Combat. Unboosted Close Combat 2HKOs Eelektross. You can set up a Bulk Up to survive an Acrobatics if you are not Sturdy, it's gonna be the same result, since you outspeed. CC is 2HKO on Seismitoad and you outspeed it even in rain, strangely. At least mine did. Well anyways, lastly, Bisharp is outsped and OHKOed by Low Sweep, probably the simplest matchup in this battle lol.
matchup: relatively good, only flaw is autolosing to Cofagrigus
And with that, my run has concluded !!! Anyways, I will make the noms and hide the ones that involve changes' reasonings in boxes for readability:
Sawk for S
Gothita staying at C
Chandelure staying at B
Minccino for B
Gigalith staying at A
Sawk is an amazing Pokemon that was pretty much one of my aces. It is just as viable option as Scraggy for a Fighting mon.
Availability: Sawk is first obtained at Pinwheel Forest. Someone brought up issues with encountering a level 17 one, but you can easily spray a Repel and lead with a level 17 mon and you are gonna trigger that and Tympole, the latter of which isn't particularly dangerous. I agree that catching it is a problem, but that's its only availability issue.
Movepool and useful items/abilities/etc.: Despite consisting of mostly Fighting moves, they are more than enough for Sawk to shine. It starts off early with Low Sweep and Double Kick, along with Focus Energy as pseudo-boosting move. Sawk can be taught Retaliate after beating Lenora for Bug-type Pokemon, though not that useful other than that. Sawk learns at level 25 Karate Chop, which can be used with Focus Energy for constant crits that ignore buffs and debuffs. Before that, at level 21, you can learn Counter, which is useful for 1 matchup. Level 33 gives you the really valuable Bulk Up, which is a core in many of its successful matchups. Level 29 gives you Brick Break, which is your most powerful tool for Sawk until Close Combat. Finally, level 49 finishes off with the powerful Close Combat that comes in handy during N/Ghetsis. Other TM options include Rock Tomb and Payback, the latter being a good way to hit Ghosts and Psychics, though they rarely contribute to major battles. At Castelia, you can get Scope Lens to abuse with Focus Energy and Karate Chop. You can also equip it with Expert Belt from Driftveil, as the damage boost on super effective hits is noticable. Sturdy would the better ability, but it rarely came into use (the one I can think on the top of my head was Ghetsis' Eelektross, which could be acheived with Bulk Up as well anyways).
Stats: Sawk's stats are sort of balanced, it's not too frail and has relatively high Attack and Speed. Its Attack allowed me to 2HKO many neutral threats despite being unboosted, while the above-average Speed allowed me to epxloit this advantage even more. With Bulk Up, Defense became valuable stat that helped me triumph over physical matchups.
Major battles:
-Lenora: Can sweep her due to bulk and Fighting-type moves.
-Burgh: This one I never tested out in this run but I have done it few times in the past, but you can use Counter to KO both Leavanny and Whirlipede. Dwebble takes neutral damage from Fighting moves. Sawk doesn't even require healing support, and even then, it would require only 1 at most, which I don't constitute myself real item support (I constitute more than 1 item support for normal conditions aka you always need to use more than 1 to win). So yes, Sawk actually contributes well in this battle.
-Elesa: Arguably the only matchup in which Sawk doesn't do much. They can Volt Spam and even if they go for Aerial Ace, you will likely be KOed and may be able to take off only 1 Emolga without having to spam too many potions.
-Clay: Mine was level 33 when I fought it so I had Bulk Up. With Bulk Up, I was able to set up and sweep his whole team; Krokorok and Exca were OHKOed by +1 Brick Break. Palpitoad doesn't do much, cause it tries to set Aqua Ring.
-Skyla: Bulk Up + Rock Tomb allowed me to beat Swoobat (I know it has Unaware, but I 2HKOed nonethless and Acrobatics was only 3HKO) and Unfezant. Swanna was able to KO it but I didn't use any items so that could have been the reason why. Nonethless, Sawk contributes majorly despite the disadvantage.
-Brycen: Brick Break is an OHKO on both Vanillish and Cryogonal. Cryogonal doesn't deal much anyways and Sawk outspeeds Vanillish. Beartic goes directly for Icicle Crash instead of Swaggering and is 2HKOed by unboosted Brick Break.
-Drayden: If you are using it as your sole member, you can set up few Bulk Ups and Fraxure won't do much damage as it DDs. Then you Brick Break it to death. Druddigon and Haxorus are OHKOed by +3 Brick Break and you only need to worry about Slash crits.
-Shauntal: Doesn't exactly sweep this, but can defeat Golurk, so even here it is not a complete deadweight
-Grimsley: Sawk just needs to set up Bulk Up once and it wins. As everything is OHKOed by +1 Brick Break. Even with attack debuff, unboosted Brick Break OHKOs Liepard, Krookodile and Bisharp. Only problem is if Scrafty Sand Attacks you, but all of his mons are physical, so you can protect yourself with Bulk Up.
-Caitlin: You can OHKO Sigilyph with Payback but that's it. If you are lucky enough, also Reuniclus.
-Marshal: You can set up 2 Bulk Ups on Throh as it tries to Bulldoze you, you later OHKO it +2 CC and then set up 2 more Bulk Ups on whatever switches in. This requires 1 Hyper Option only in normal conditions, as most mons do if they try to sweep. Then you just OHKO whatever is left with CC (or Low Sweep in Mienshao's case), and they can't touch you because of Defense boosts, when you have them of course.
N: Sawk is able to beat the entire team singlehandlely, with a little bit switching or luck. The only luck here is hoping Zoroark misses with Focus Blast. You set up Bulk Ups, heal with Hyper Potion and later use CC and/or Low Sweep to KO Zekrom. Klinklang was OHKOed by boosted Low Sweep due to trying to debuf me with Metal Sound. If you are not at full HP, you have to switch out against Vani, though Vani is otherwise OHKOed by Sawk as well. You can use Carracosta as a set up bait and defeat it, along with Archeops due to Defense boosts. Zoroark can be beaten either by Focus Blast missing or not having debuffs (or having Sturdy at full HP). The battle will likely require 2 Hyper Potions, but at least Sawk wins this singlehandlely.
Ghetsis: The only unwinnable matchup is Cofagrigus, since Payback won't do much anyways. Bouffalant is (most of the time) OHKOed by unboosted Close Combat. Hydreigon is beaten by a combo of Low Sweep + CC and avoids an OHKO from its moves. Bisharp is outsped and OHKOed by unboosted Low Sweep. Seismitoad and Eelektross are 2HKOed by unboosted CCs, though you might be worn out and need some item support. However, nonethless, Sawk does extremely well in this battle, despite being notoriously hard.
While I do agree that Sawk does not steamroll every Gym Leader/E4, this is an offset by the fact that A)It can contribute in these bad matchups nonethless (defeats Skyla's half team, defeats Shauntal's Golurk and Caitlin's Sigilyph and potentially Reuniclus) B)It performs excellently against everything else, either sweeping or just denting holes in them (crushing half of Ghetsis' team is pretty much busting a hole in him). The only good Gym matchup that is not a sweep is Skyla and half the E4 is sweeped by it as well. N and Ghetsis are the only battles that can require more than 1 healing item, but key word is can. They have 6 members each, so I'm not seeing anything actually sweeping them anyways.
Some people brought up concerns about Minccino's power being unreliable. I think this is an argument to stop it from raising to A and not to B. Cinccino's wide coverage (Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Wake Up Slap) allows to hit many Pokemon super effectively, not relying on high hits to be successful. Encore is also a great move that aided me greatly in the run. Finally, its Speed and power, thanks to Technician, was also powerful
Availability: Minccino is obtainable at Route 4, before Elesa. Not hard to catch
Movepool and etc: Minccino initially starts with Double Slap/Swift/Encore/Sing. Swift is incredibly powerful due to Technician early and also has the advantage of not missing. Double Slap is weaker, but you eventually learn at level 25 Tail Slap, which becomes more preferred. Encore is a move I kept through the whole run and it allowed me to dent useless anything that used a status move and was slower than me. It can learn Wake Up Slap at level 31, but you need to keep it from evolving to get it. Once you evolve it into Cinccino, you can reteach it Bullet Seed and Rock Blast at Mistralton for 2 Heart Scales (both obtainable during the story). Minccino uses these moves better with Technician than Skill Link. It can be given Expert Belt as well.
Matchups:
Elesa: Arguably the only bad gym one, simply because it's a Minccino. No bulk to survive the attacks.
Clay: If you evolve it into Cinccino, you can beat both Krokorok and Palpitoad with Tail Slap. If Palpitoad and Excadrill try to use Aqua Ring and Hone Claws, respectively, you can Encore them. So Cinccino can beat the whole gym.
Skyla: With Rock Blast, you can beat the whole gym. Bonus points if you have Expert Belt. You mostly need 3 or 4 hits on every mon.
Brycen: Same deal as Skyla, you can beat the whole gym with Rock Blast. If Vanillish tries to set up Acid Armor, you can Encore it. Beartic is potentially problematic due to Swagger, but 5 hits unboosted kill it and with Swagger boost you will definitely kill it if you avoid confusion damage.
Drayden: Beats Fraxure and Haxorus by Encoring them in Dragon Dance while they try to Dragon Tail you. Druddigon cannot be beaten due to Rough Skin + Revenge.
Shauntal: 4 Bullet Seeds are needed to KO both Golurk and Jellicent, though Golurk will likely try to set up Curse, making only 2 required. Chandelrue requires around 3-4 hits with Rock Blast, but you outspeed and survive a Fire Blast from it. Cofagrigus is the only bad matchup.
Grimsley: Cinccino can beat Liepard with 4 Tail Slap hits, although Attract can be annoying. Krookodile is OHKOed by 3 hits Expert Belt Bullet Seeds. Bisharp can be outsped and OHKOed with Wake Up Slap if you have one
Caitlin: Reuniclus needs 6 hits to be KOed, while missing Focus Blast. Musharna can be Encored into using Reflect, although then you will need in total 14 Tail Slap hits to KO it. Sigilyph is outsped and OHKOed by 3 hits of Expert Belt Rock Blast. Gothitelle can be encored in Calm Mind and is significally easier to take down.
Marshal: Cinccino fails to OHKO majority of his team without 5+ hits and in turn everything OHKOs it with. The only mon it can beat is Sawk but with 4 hits and barely survives a Karate Chop.
N: Zekrom outspeeds and OHKOs it. Klinklang can be encored into Metal Sound and then fainted by Wake Up Slap. Vanilluxe is outsped and can be KOed with 5 hits. It can also survive a Blizzard if it hasn't got a SpD drop. Carracosta can be defeated with 5 Bullet Seeds and Cinccino is only 2HKOed by Waterfall. Zoroark beats it if it hits Focus Blast, but otherwise is KOed by 4 hits. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOs with Acrobatics.
Ghetsis: Cofagrigus can be encored into Protect and KO it with 11 Bullet Seeds. Hydreigon outspeeds and kills it with Focus Blast. Bouffalant cannot be OHKOed and OHKOes back with Head Charge. Bisharp can be OHKOed with Wake Up Slap. Seismitoad can be defeated with 3 Bullet Seeds. Eelektross is killed by 6 Tail Slaps and Cinccino takes 1 hit from every single attack.
Keep in mind Gigalith needed huge item support for E4 and N and Ghetsis. I considered to nom a drop to B, but I remembered while typing its nom that it smashed almost every gym and even then, it was able to beat Marshal by itself, which is like really strange. For now, A is alright but I won't object if someone decides to drop it.
N:
Gigalith: With no Defense boosts, Zekrom 3HKOes with Fusion Bolt. Set up 3 Iron Defenses though and it cannot do much. Zen Headbutt also is a contact move, so RHelmet damage came into effect. The battle became a bit slow but Gigalith eventually won. I'm sure this is an even better matchup against Reshiram, not including Reflect. Zoroark OHKOes Gigalith with FBlast if not at full HP. Without switching out constantly and hoping on FBlast misses, I think this one is a bad matchup, but Stone Edge 2HKOes anyways. Klinklang has Flash Cannon and 2HKOes with it. Bulldoze is not enough to 2HKO it. Carracosta 2HKOs with Waterfall, and I setup Iron Defense. After that, I healed, and set up 2 more. While hitting me with Waterfall, it got RHelmet damage. After being done with setting, Waterfall barely did damage and I was able to finish it off what was left. Vanillue tried to set Hail, and my Stone Edge OHKOed it. Archeops' Stone Edge didn't do much due to Defense boosts from earlier and was OHKOed by 3 hits of Rock Blast.
matchup: slightly positive
Cinccino: Zekrom outsped and OHKOed it with Fusion Bolt. Klinklang goes for Metal Sound, so you can Encore it. If you have Wake Up Slap (I didn't), the battle becomes faster. 14 hits of Tail Slap are needed to KO this. Zoroark outsped and would have KOed with Focus Blast, if it didn't miss. 4 hits were needed to KO this, but the matchup relies on too much luck. Vanilluxe needs 5 hits of Rock Blast to be KOed. Luckily, my Cinccino survived a Blizzard as well. Carracosta needs 5 Bullet Seeds to faint. Its Aqua Jet was 3HKO on my Cinccino, so Waterfall would be a 2HKO. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOes with Acrobatics.
matchup: between okay and slightly positive.
Sawk: Zen Headbutt is 2HKO on this and Zekrom also outspeeds, so I set up with Bulk Up and spammed Hyper Potions until I set up at +6. +6 CC OHKOes Zekrom. Klinklang outspeeds but uses Metal Sound so you OHKO with Low Sweep with the same boost. Vanilluxe came in and used Blizzard. Fortunately, I had Sturdy so I was able to survive and OHKO with Low Sweep. I used a Hyper Potion against Zoroark and I was lucky that Focus Blast missed so OHKOed with Low Sweep. +5 Defense helped me deal with Archeops and Carracosta, which are OHKOed and 2HKOed, respectively, the latter due to Sturdy. Sawk cannot his whole team at once, unless you are lucky, but majorly contributes
matchup: positive
Chandelure: I burned Zekrom and its Fusion Bolts became 3HKOs. Shadow Ball + burn damage took a while to take it down due to Light Screen. In the end, Chandy won this matchup. Carracosta cannot be OHKOed and in turn OHKOs back Chandelure. Burned attacks 2HKO. Furthermore, it can revenge kill it with Aqua Jet. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOs with Stone Edge. You'd need Stone Edge missing to burn it. At full health, Chandelure survives a non-crit Night Slash from Zoroark and OHKOs with Fire Blast. Burn it and I think it becomes 3HKO again. Vanilluxe outspeeds, but tries to set up Hail as well. FBlast OHKOes. Finally, Klinklang outspeeds and goes for Tbolt, but it doesn't do much, so FBlast OHKOes it as well
matchup: slightly positive, takes out 4/6 of his team and autoloses to 2 of them
Gothitelle: Zekrom sets up Light Screen and Goth doesn't do much, then dies. Gothtelle's Psychic 2HKOs Carracosta and survives a Crunch. Psychic 3HKOes Archeops, which in turn 2HKOs with Acrobatics. No way to win this matchup. Klinklang Metal Sounds and stomps with Flash Cannon, with no ways of hitting it. Zoroark is obvious. Vanilluxe is not 2HKOed by any attack and 2HKOes it with Blizzard.
matchup: almost bad, at least beats Carracosta
Ghetsis:
Gigalith: Cofagrigus is 3HKOed by Stone Edge. Shadow Ball + Toxic wears it out so Gigalith basically lost this matchup. Only way of winnig this is if one Stone Edge crits, then it becomes a 2HKO. You can, however, heal off the Toxic damage on the turns it Protects, so this might not be completely lost hope. Hydreigon is 3HKOed as well, and Focus Blast 2HKOes from full health since Sturdy. No way to win this. Bouffalant's EQ is a 3HKO and you can set up Iron Defense to max. 9 Rock Blasts are needed to KO it, which are equivalent to 3 Stone Edges from practical experience. Seismitoad has Muddy Water to ignore your Defense boosts. Bisharp, I set up Iron Defense and Night Slash very little. Its Night Slashes triggered RHelmet and I finished off with Bulldoze when it was in range. Eelektross' only special move is Flamethrower, so with Iron Defense, you easily win this matchup.
Matchup: okay I would say
Chandelure: Cofagrigus is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Luckily, Chandy can also survive a Shadow Ball. Matchup with Hydreigon is obvious, I don't think I even need to elaborate anything on this. Burned Bouffalant's EQ is only a 3HKO on it. Fire Blast is a 3HKO as well. Seismitoad is also kind of obvious of how it's gonna go. Bisharp was outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast. Burned Eelektross' Crunch is a 3HKO only, and is also 2HKOed by Fire Blast.
matchup: between okay and positive, due to autolosing to 2 threats.
Gothitelle: Gothitelle 3HKOs Cofag with Shadow Ball. If you predict correclty the Toxic + Protect thingies so you can heal off the poison while it tries to Protect, you might actually win this, but this is dependant on the AI's behavior. Bisharp and Hydreigon are automatic losses. Bouffalant isn't even 3HKOed by Psychic and 2HKOs Goth wit Head Charge. Gothitelle 3HKOs Eelektross with Psychic but is 2HKOed itself by Crunch, so bad matchup. Seismitoad 2HKOs Goth with EQ and is only 3HKOed with Psychic.
matchup: same as N.
Cinccino: You can Encore Cofagrigus into Protect. 11 Bullet Seeds are needed to KO this thing. Hydreigon outspeeds and OHKOs with Focus Blast. Bouffalant OHKOs with Head Charge and you have no ways of KOing it without too many crits. Eelektross was KOed with 6 hits in total and Cinccino survives an Acrobatics. Bisharp can be OHKOed with Wake Up Slap, but as I mentioned before, I didn't have it. Seismitoad needs 3 Bullet Seeds to be KOed
matchup: okay
Sawk: I forgot to teach it Payback again, but I doubt it'd make a difference against Cofagrigus, which can Toxic + Protect you. Bouffalant is sometimes OHKOed, sometimes 2HKOed by unboosted Close Combat, I guess roll damages. I think the chance to OHKO is higher, judging by previous attempts with the previous mons. Hydreigon doesn't OHKO you if you have no drops (if you have Sturdy, doesn't matter as long as you at full health) and you can Low Sweep it to slow it down and outspeed the next turn with Close Combat. Unboosted Close Combat 2HKOs Eelektross. You can set up a Bulk Up to survive an Acrobatics if you are not Sturdy, it's gonna be the same result, since you outspeed. CC is 2HKO on Seismitoad and you outspeed it even in rain, strangely. At least mine did. Well anyways, lastly, Bisharp is outsped and OHKOed by Low Sweep, probably the simplest matchup in this battle lol.
matchup: relatively good, only flaw is autolosing to Cofagrigus
And with that, my run has concluded !!! Anyways, I will make the noms and hide the ones that involve changes' reasonings in boxes for readability:
Sawk for S
Gothita staying at C
Chandelure staying at B
Minccino for B
Gigalith staying at A
Sawk is an amazing Pokemon that was pretty much one of my aces. It is just as viable option as Scraggy for a Fighting mon.
Availability: Sawk is first obtained at Pinwheel Forest. Someone brought up issues with encountering a level 17 one, but you can easily spray a Repel and lead with a level 17 mon and you are gonna trigger that and Tympole, the latter of which isn't particularly dangerous. I agree that catching it is a problem, but that's its only availability issue.
Movepool and useful items/abilities/etc.: Despite consisting of mostly Fighting moves, they are more than enough for Sawk to shine. It starts off early with Low Sweep and Double Kick, along with Focus Energy as pseudo-boosting move. Sawk can be taught Retaliate after beating Lenora for Bug-type Pokemon, though not that useful other than that. Sawk learns at level 25 Karate Chop, which can be used with Focus Energy for constant crits that ignore buffs and debuffs. Before that, at level 21, you can learn Counter, which is useful for 1 matchup. Level 33 gives you the really valuable Bulk Up, which is a core in many of its successful matchups. Level 29 gives you Brick Break, which is your most powerful tool for Sawk until Close Combat. Finally, level 49 finishes off with the powerful Close Combat that comes in handy during N/Ghetsis. Other TM options include Rock Tomb and Payback, the latter being a good way to hit Ghosts and Psychics, though they rarely contribute to major battles. At Castelia, you can get Scope Lens to abuse with Focus Energy and Karate Chop. You can also equip it with Expert Belt from Driftveil, as the damage boost on super effective hits is noticable. Sturdy would the better ability, but it rarely came into use (the one I can think on the top of my head was Ghetsis' Eelektross, which could be acheived with Bulk Up as well anyways).
Stats: Sawk's stats are sort of balanced, it's not too frail and has relatively high Attack and Speed. Its Attack allowed me to 2HKO many neutral threats despite being unboosted, while the above-average Speed allowed me to epxloit this advantage even more. With Bulk Up, Defense became valuable stat that helped me triumph over physical matchups.
Major battles:
-Lenora: Can sweep her due to bulk and Fighting-type moves.
-Burgh: This one I never tested out in this run but I have done it few times in the past, but you can use Counter to KO both Leavanny and Whirlipede. Dwebble takes neutral damage from Fighting moves. Sawk doesn't even require healing support, and even then, it would require only 1 at most, which I don't constitute myself real item support (I constitute more than 1 item support for normal conditions aka you always need to use more than 1 to win). So yes, Sawk actually contributes well in this battle.
-Elesa: Arguably the only matchup in which Sawk doesn't do much. They can Volt Spam and even if they go for Aerial Ace, you will likely be KOed and may be able to take off only 1 Emolga without having to spam too many potions.
-Clay: Mine was level 33 when I fought it so I had Bulk Up. With Bulk Up, I was able to set up and sweep his whole team; Krokorok and Exca were OHKOed by +1 Brick Break. Palpitoad doesn't do much, cause it tries to set Aqua Ring.
-Skyla: Bulk Up + Rock Tomb allowed me to beat Swoobat (I know it has Unaware, but I 2HKOed nonethless and Acrobatics was only 3HKO) and Unfezant. Swanna was able to KO it but I didn't use any items so that could have been the reason why. Nonethless, Sawk contributes majorly despite the disadvantage.
-Brycen: Brick Break is an OHKO on both Vanillish and Cryogonal. Cryogonal doesn't deal much anyways and Sawk outspeeds Vanillish. Beartic goes directly for Icicle Crash instead of Swaggering and is 2HKOed by unboosted Brick Break.
-Drayden: If you are using it as your sole member, you can set up few Bulk Ups and Fraxure won't do much damage as it DDs. Then you Brick Break it to death. Druddigon and Haxorus are OHKOed by +3 Brick Break and you only need to worry about Slash crits.
-Shauntal: Doesn't exactly sweep this, but can defeat Golurk, so even here it is not a complete deadweight
-Grimsley: Sawk just needs to set up Bulk Up once and it wins. As everything is OHKOed by +1 Brick Break. Even with attack debuff, unboosted Brick Break OHKOs Liepard, Krookodile and Bisharp. Only problem is if Scrafty Sand Attacks you, but all of his mons are physical, so you can protect yourself with Bulk Up.
-Caitlin: You can OHKO Sigilyph with Payback but that's it. If you are lucky enough, also Reuniclus.
-Marshal: You can set up 2 Bulk Ups on Throh as it tries to Bulldoze you, you later OHKO it +2 CC and then set up 2 more Bulk Ups on whatever switches in. This requires 1 Hyper Option only in normal conditions, as most mons do if they try to sweep. Then you just OHKO whatever is left with CC (or Low Sweep in Mienshao's case), and they can't touch you because of Defense boosts, when you have them of course.
N: Sawk is able to beat the entire team singlehandlely, with a little bit switching or luck. The only luck here is hoping Zoroark misses with Focus Blast. You set up Bulk Ups, heal with Hyper Potion and later use CC and/or Low Sweep to KO Zekrom. Klinklang was OHKOed by boosted Low Sweep due to trying to debuf me with Metal Sound. If you are not at full HP, you have to switch out against Vani, though Vani is otherwise OHKOed by Sawk as well. You can use Carracosta as a set up bait and defeat it, along with Archeops due to Defense boosts. Zoroark can be beaten either by Focus Blast missing or not having debuffs (or having Sturdy at full HP). The battle will likely require 2 Hyper Potions, but at least Sawk wins this singlehandlely.
Ghetsis: The only unwinnable matchup is Cofagrigus, since Payback won't do much anyways. Bouffalant is (most of the time) OHKOed by unboosted Close Combat. Hydreigon is beaten by a combo of Low Sweep + CC and avoids an OHKO from its moves. Bisharp is outsped and OHKOed by unboosted Low Sweep. Seismitoad and Eelektross are 2HKOed by unboosted CCs, though you might be worn out and need some item support. However, nonethless, Sawk does extremely well in this battle, despite being notoriously hard.
While I do agree that Sawk does not steamroll every Gym Leader/E4, this is an offset by the fact that A)It can contribute in these bad matchups nonethless (defeats Skyla's half team, defeats Shauntal's Golurk and Caitlin's Sigilyph and potentially Reuniclus) B)It performs excellently against everything else, either sweeping or just denting holes in them (crushing half of Ghetsis' team is pretty much busting a hole in him). The only good Gym matchup that is not a sweep is Skyla and half the E4 is sweeped by it as well. N and Ghetsis are the only battles that can require more than 1 healing item, but key word is can. They have 6 members each, so I'm not seeing anything actually sweeping them anyways.
Some people brought up concerns about Minccino's power being unreliable. I think this is an argument to stop it from raising to A and not to B. Cinccino's wide coverage (Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Wake Up Slap) allows to hit many Pokemon super effectively, not relying on high hits to be successful. Encore is also a great move that aided me greatly in the run. Finally, its Speed and power, thanks to Technician, was also powerful
Availability: Minccino is obtainable at Route 4, before Elesa. Not hard to catch
Movepool and etc: Minccino initially starts with Double Slap/Swift/Encore/Sing. Swift is incredibly powerful due to Technician early and also has the advantage of not missing. Double Slap is weaker, but you eventually learn at level 25 Tail Slap, which becomes more preferred. Encore is a move I kept through the whole run and it allowed me to dent useless anything that used a status move and was slower than me. It can learn Wake Up Slap at level 31, but you need to keep it from evolving to get it. Once you evolve it into Cinccino, you can reteach it Bullet Seed and Rock Blast at Mistralton for 2 Heart Scales (both obtainable during the story). Minccino uses these moves better with Technician than Skill Link. It can be given Expert Belt as well.
Matchups:
Elesa: Arguably the only bad gym one, simply because it's a Minccino. No bulk to survive the attacks.
Clay: If you evolve it into Cinccino, you can beat both Krokorok and Palpitoad with Tail Slap. If Palpitoad and Excadrill try to use Aqua Ring and Hone Claws, respectively, you can Encore them. So Cinccino can beat the whole gym.
Skyla: With Rock Blast, you can beat the whole gym. Bonus points if you have Expert Belt. You mostly need 3 or 4 hits on every mon.
Brycen: Same deal as Skyla, you can beat the whole gym with Rock Blast. If Vanillish tries to set up Acid Armor, you can Encore it. Beartic is potentially problematic due to Swagger, but 5 hits unboosted kill it and with Swagger boost you will definitely kill it if you avoid confusion damage.
Drayden: Beats Fraxure and Haxorus by Encoring them in Dragon Dance while they try to Dragon Tail you. Druddigon cannot be beaten due to Rough Skin + Revenge.
Shauntal: 4 Bullet Seeds are needed to KO both Golurk and Jellicent, though Golurk will likely try to set up Curse, making only 2 required. Chandelrue requires around 3-4 hits with Rock Blast, but you outspeed and survive a Fire Blast from it. Cofagrigus is the only bad matchup.
Grimsley: Cinccino can beat Liepard with 4 Tail Slap hits, although Attract can be annoying. Krookodile is OHKOed by 3 hits Expert Belt Bullet Seeds. Bisharp can be outsped and OHKOed with Wake Up Slap if you have one
Caitlin: Reuniclus needs 6 hits to be KOed, while missing Focus Blast. Musharna can be Encored into using Reflect, although then you will need in total 14 Tail Slap hits to KO it. Sigilyph is outsped and OHKOed by 3 hits of Expert Belt Rock Blast. Gothitelle can be encored in Calm Mind and is significally easier to take down.
Marshal: Cinccino fails to OHKO majority of his team without 5+ hits and in turn everything OHKOs it with. The only mon it can beat is Sawk but with 4 hits and barely survives a Karate Chop.
N: Zekrom outspeeds and OHKOs it. Klinklang can be encored into Metal Sound and then fainted by Wake Up Slap. Vanilluxe is outsped and can be KOed with 5 hits. It can also survive a Blizzard if it hasn't got a SpD drop. Carracosta can be defeated with 5 Bullet Seeds and Cinccino is only 2HKOed by Waterfall. Zoroark beats it if it hits Focus Blast, but otherwise is KOed by 4 hits. Archeops outspeeds and OHKOs with Acrobatics.
Ghetsis: Cofagrigus can be encored into Protect and KO it with 11 Bullet Seeds. Hydreigon outspeeds and kills it with Focus Blast. Bouffalant cannot be OHKOed and OHKOes back with Head Charge. Bisharp can be OHKOed with Wake Up Slap. Seismitoad can be defeated with 3 Bullet Seeds. Eelektross is killed by 6 Tail Slaps and Cinccino takes 1 hit from every single attack.
Keep in mind Gigalith needed huge item support for E4 and N and Ghetsis. I considered to nom a drop to B, but I remembered while typing its nom that it smashed almost every gym and even then, it was able to beat Marshal by itself, which is like really strange. For now, A is alright but I won't object if someone decides to drop it.
I object to the idea that Gigalith needs to be capable of a sweep for it's E4 performance to be considered favorable (or for any mon), this is not a realistic expectation for any mon without a specifically favourable situation.
When I was describing my experiences I made note of how I was impressed with Gigalith for it's ability to stand up to and defeat specific enemies, while it couldn't handle everything (what can???) it could take down several of the most threatening enemies N and Ghetsis had available. Reshiram and Archeops we're the most notable of these, but this also included Bouffalant and Eelektross, as well as lesser threats such as Bisharp and Sigilyph (Caitlin).
I wonder if your run might have been influenced by inefficient move selection? I see at one point you mentioned how 3 rock blast hits we're equivalent to a stone edge, but this is untrue as 4 hots are required to match that power, 3 hits equals a rock slide. Perhaps you might have been choosing the weaker move slightly more often.
Possibly worth noting as well is that I did not use Iron Defense in my run, I'm generally averse to set up moves and relying on Gigalith's naturally immense bulk was more than sufficient for it to defeat most prominent physical threats, as it's gym performance would demonstrate.
Finally, an actual tier list discussion for BW1 is being made. I swear, there's like none of these on the Internet, let alone Smogon. But what's important is that there is now. What's more important is that I wish to contribute some info from my Pokémon White Playthrough I've been doing the past few months. (I stopped halfway in for a Shiny Foongus hunt on Route 6; still haven't gotten it.) Having custom made a team of what I've gathered to be some of the best Pokémon for what I like to call "the in-game meta", I'd like to share some of my experiences.
The Final Team: Samurott, Simisear (eventually replaced), Excadrill, Sawk, Darumaka, Lilligant, Archeops
One thing I immediately noticed about this team and about the BW1 in-game meta is that it is widely consistent of either physical or mixed attackers, and that my Lilligant happened to be my only true special attacker. (Gotta love Quiver Dance at Level 28.) The other thing I noticed is that a few of the Pokémon I'm using are actually quite a bit better than expected, even if a few of them don't have good Natures or IVs.
I can't exactly remember which Pokémon are in which Tiers currently (feel free to correct me), but assuming my short term memory is actually working for a change, I recommend Petilil, Sawk, and and Darumaka all go up to S Tier. Archen is already up there in S Tier, I believe. In addition, I'd give Oshawott an A or B ranking, and at least for the beginning of the game, I'd be willing to argue as high as C Tier for Pansear. Fast mixed attacking Fire-Types are rare in Unova, and the monkey can actually benefit from a surprising amount of earlygame TMs as well.
Finally, an actual tier list discussion for BW1 is being made. I swear, there's like none of these on the Internet, let alone Smogon. But what's important is that there is now. What's more important is that I wish to contribute some info from my Pokémon White Playthrough I've been doing the past few months. (I stopped halfway in for a Shiny Foongus hunt on Route 6; still haven't gotten it.) Having custom made a team of what I've gathered to be some of the best Pokémon for what I like to call "the in-game meta", I'd like to share some of my experiences.
The Final Team: Samurott, Simisear (eventually replaced), Excadrill, Sawk, Darumaka, Lilligant, Archeops
One thing I immediately noticed about this team and about the BW1 in-game meta is that it is widely consistent of either physical or mixed attackers, and that my Lilligant happened to be my only true special attacker. (Gotta love Quiver Dance at Level 28.) The other thing I noticed is that a few of the Pokémon I'm using are actually quite a bit better than expected, even if a few of them don't have good Natures or IVs.
I can't exactly remember which Pokémon are in which Tiers currently (feel free to correct me), but assuming my short term memory is actually working for a change, I recommend Petilil, Sawk, and and Darumaka all go up to S Tier. Archen is already up there in S Tier, I believe. In addition, I'd give Oshawott an A or B ranking, and at least for the beginning of the game, I'd be willing to argue as high as C Tier for Pansear. Fast mixed attacking Fire-Types are rare in Unova, and the monkey can actually benefit from a surprising amount of earlygame TMs as well.
I have issues with your tiering with Simisear/Pansear. I myself am using a 31 IV Sp. Atk Simisear. It fails to OHKO anything without buffs. Additionally, you DROPPED yours, further proving the point it is not C Tier worthy. Also, you have to use the mon until the end of the game, no dropping. If I am reading your team correctly here, you dropped Simisear as soon as you got Darumaka.
I have issues with your tiering with Simisear/Pansear. I myself am using a 31 IV Sp. Atk Simisear. It fails to OHKO anything without buffs. Additionally, you DROPPED yours, further proving the point it is not C Tier worthy. Also, you have to use the mon until the end of the game, no dropping. If I am reading your team correctly here, you dropped Simisear as soon as you got Darumaka.
I both agree and disagree with that. First off, access to Yawn at Level 19 can make setting up quite a bit easier. Secondly, I actually kept it on my team until I ran out of party slots, and not because Darumaka was better. (I mean yeah it was but still.) In other words, I probably would have kept it had you been allowed 7 team slots. It does have some shortcomings, though. Base 30 power Incinerate is outclassed by Vine Whip and Water Gun of the other two monkeys, and its only other good level up move that it gets STAB in is Flame Burst which only has 70 power.
Perhaps the biggest problem for Pansear though is the avaliabliity of Fire-Types in this game. In a region with Emboar, Darmanitan, and Chandelure just to name a few, Pansear and its evolution have a hard time standing out with any specific niche, while already being outclassed by all of them except maybe Heatmor. This is a long stretch from the previous Generation as well, which depending on what Sinnoh game you're playing, only has two to five options available for Fire-Types, and HGSS only has Cyndaquil, the annoying Entei, Magmar, and a few other bottom tiers to work with. Oh, and Ho-Oh if you're playing HeartGold, but no one uses Legendaries often.
I both agree and disagree with that. First off, access to Yawn at Level 19 can make setting up quite a bit easier. Secondly, I actually kept it on my team until I ran out of party slots, and not because Darumaka was better. (I mean yeah it was but still.) In other words, I probably would have kept it had you been allowed 7 team slots. It does have some shortcomings, though. Base 30 power Incinerate is outclassed by Vine Whip and Water Gun of the other two monkeys, and its only other good level up move that it gets STAB in is Flame Burst which only has 70 power.
Perhaps the biggest problem for Pansear though is the avaliabliity of Fire-Types in this game. In a region with Emboar, Darmanitan, and Chandelure just to name a few, Pansear and its evolution have a hard time standing out with any specific niche, while already being outclassed by all of them except maybe Heatmor. This is a long stretch from the previous Generation as well, which depending on what Sinnoh game you're playing, only has two to five options available for Fire-Types, and HGSS only has Cyndaquil, the annoying Entei, Magmar, and a few other bottom tiers to work with. Oh, and Ho-Oh if you're playing HeartGold, but no one uses Legendaries often.
Pansear is probably staying in D. Based on Turdterra's experiences in his previous posts, it's actually quite awful, and the fact that you have to put up with Incinerate for 12 levels for a pretty mediocre Fire type anyway (sure, it's fast, but every other decent Fire type sans Emboar is fast enough for in-game) cements the fact that no one should really use it. Options for Fire types are sparse, but that doesn't mean Pansear shouldn't belong in the dumpster. Also we are not tiering Gen 4 and thus this rambling isn't relevant.
__
Sawk in S? Hmm, I don't know. If Sawk goes in S then I think Darumaka might need to go back there because Darmanitan hits harder, is faster, and also has Fighting moves. Blah blah accuracy keeping in A most likely I know, but there was a good amount of support for it staying in S too, so it's not exactly unfounded.
Here's my analysis of Sawk from a while back (I've used it before). Some of it is a tad outdated, but in general I don't think the item usage above (which I saw like 3 times in E4) equates to S tier.
Going to weigh in on the whole Sawk S tier thing briefly (used it in the past). This is not going to be a novel-length post, and jerk Drumsticks is going to try to be neutral. Nobody is wrong for wanting to rise Sawk to S (I mean this sincerely), as it has strong qualities:
-Comes early with strong stats: This is the best selling point. 75/75/75 bulk is enough to take a hit at this point and remember everything hasn't evolved on most mooks yet (and won't until about Chargestone Cave or so). Sawk also has a great 85 Speed, enough to outrun most of the game. Note most of the endgame, while unfavorable to Sawk, leans towards slow, bulky attackers, making Sawk's only decent Speed just fine. 125 Attack is also a great asset-only the S tiers come close to this offense.
Starts with great moves and gets better: If you catch a Sawk at level 17, it has Bide, Focus Energy, Double Kick, and Low Sweep. Low Sweep is the best Fighting STAB you could ask for really; Low Sweep is perfect for Sawk, allowing it to hit hard and support the team with a Speed drop. Karate Chop at 25 can be halfway decent with Focus Energy. Brick Break at 29 is a solid option for pure damage. Bulk Up at 33 is a great boosting move, but Sawk doesn’t inherently need it most of the time. Retaliate at 37 is good but redundant thanks to the TM. Endure at level 41 on a Pokémon with Sturdy is a joke, as is Quick Guard at 45. Close Combat at level 49 is reachable, but I think it wouldn’t affect Sawk’s endgame performance too much. Reversal at level 53 pairs nice with Sturdy-a 300 BP move is hilarious, but at best you’ll fire off one or two hits before kneeling over, and most users won’t likely see this level pre-ending, as Sawk’s E4 matchups are iffy.
Decent TM compatibility: Right when the initial power of Sawk kind of drops of around Castelia/Nimbassa or so (due to less than favorable matchups) it gets some decent TMs in Work Up, Retaliate, Dig, Rock Tomb, and Payback. While the latter two options are far from optimal (accuracy for Rock Tomb, Payback because Sawk is fast) they are still okay. Later on (if you detour for them) Poison Jab and Rock Slide can be helpful. However, this is basically all Sawk gets, and while Bulk Up with Fighting STAB is strong, it runs into issues against leaders (rivals/N are easy because Sawk can smash them after Work Up). While Sawk can set up on its unfavorable matchups, like other setup sweepers I don’t think it would quite sweep through Burgh, Elesa, and debatably Skyla (though you can likely Bulk Up on Swoobat) because all of their mons can get close in Speed, save for Burgh’s Whirlipede and Dwebble.
-Sturdy is a good niche not many fast mons have: Most other Sturdy users are slow/bulky attackers. Gigalith, Carracosta and Crustle have to boost before Sturdy is at full potential, and even then, the latter two can have trouble outrunning stuff like Caitlin’s Sigilyph.
And now, the negatives:
-The one big issue I have with Sawk is it’s midgame and endgame. As mentioned above, Sawk doesn’t have the best matchups midgame (barring gimmicky stuff like Counter), though I can easily see it sweeping Clay just fine, as well as having a strong mook showing in general. Endgame wise, I find it hard to see Sawk dominating like most of the S tiers. Shauntal is immune to STAB, Caitlin resists it, Marshall is neutral, and Grimsley (generally the easiest) is an obvious win. Compare this to most of the other S tiers, who generally only have one matchup they struggle with (Marshall for Excadrill for Scrafty) or can otherwise contribute with solid damage everywhere (Darmanitan, Archeops). Normally, I will not compare mons, but seeing as the S tier merits have been comparatively judged before this has precedent.
On the other hand, Sawk is significantly better against N and Ghetsis. The legendary dragon depends on version-You can Bulk Up on Zekrom, but you must heal, watch out for DragonBreath’s paralysis chance and Reflect use (though Brick Break shatters it). Reshiram is shakier because 150 Special Attack will smack anything hard. I could easily see Sawk plastering at least half of N’s team without setup, especially with Close Combat. You easily take Vanilluxe and Klinklang. Zoroark, while not a problem, poses a different threat in that it might outspeed and break Sawk’s Sturdy, which is relevant for N’s Archeops who will likely outspeed and OHKO. Carracosta you can beat, but it’s not recommended because it’ll wear you down thanks to Carracosta’s own Sturdy.
Against Ghetsis, Sawk is pretty good. It can beat Bisharp and Bouffalant, and is probably able to beat Hydreigon if it has Close Combat. You could maybe take on Sesmitoad and Eelektross in a one on one, though be wary that the latter has Acrobatics. Cofagrigus has Toxic and Psychic and is immune to Fighting so you can’t setup on his lead.
So, is Sawk an S tier? In my opinion, not quite, although it’s still very good. Sawk carried my team through a lot of the game the last time I used it, after all. A tier is largely reprehensive of fairly early mons with solid stats with decent matchups that you can use almost right away, or late mons that have good matchups after you obtain them.
Friendly reminder that we do not drop things ever.
Pansear is probably staying in D. Based on Turdterra's experiences in his previous posts, it's actually quite awful, and the fact that you have to put up with Incinerate for 12 levels for a pretty mediocre Fire type anyway (sure, it's fast, but every other decent Fire type sans Emboar is fast enough for in-game) cements the fact that no one should really use it. Options for Fire types are sparse, but that doesn't mean Pansear shouldn't belong in the dumpster. Also we are not tiering Gen 4 and thus this rambling isn't relevant.
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Sawk in S? Hmm, I don't know. If Sawk goes in S then I think Darumaka might need to go back there because Darmanitan hits harder, is faster, and also has Fighting moves. Blah blah accuracy keeping in A most likely I know, but there was a good amount of support for it staying in S too, so it's not exactly unfounded.
Here's my analysis of Sawk from a while back (I've used it before). Some of it is a tad outdated, but in general I don't think the item usage above (which I saw like 3 times in E4) equates to S tier.
Going to weigh in on the whole Sawk S tier thing briefly (used it in the past). This is not going to be a novel-length post, and jerk Drumsticks is going to try to be neutral. Nobody is wrong for wanting to rise Sawk to S (I mean this sincerely), as it has strong qualities:
-Comes early with strong stats: This is the best selling point. 75/75/75 bulk is enough to take a hit at this point and remember everything hasn't evolved on most mooks yet (and won't until about Chargestone Cave or so). Sawk also has a great 85 Speed, enough to outrun most of the game. Note most of the endgame, while unfavorable to Sawk, leans towards slow, bulky attackers, making Sawk's only decent Speed just fine. 125 Attack is also a great asset-only the S tiers come close to this offense.
Starts with great moves and gets better: If you catch a Sawk at level 17, it has Bide, Focus Energy, Double Kick, and Low Sweep. Low Sweep is the best Fighting STAB you could ask for really; Low Sweep is perfect for Sawk, allowing it to hit hard and support the team with a Speed drop. Karate Chop at 25 can be halfway decent with Focus Energy. Brick Break at 29 is a solid option for pure damage. Bulk Up at 33 is a great boosting move, but Sawk doesn’t inherently need it most of the time. Retaliate at 37 is good but redundant thanks to the TM. Endure at level 41 on a Pokémon with Sturdy is a joke, as is Quick Guard at 45. Close Combat at level 49 is reachable, but I think it wouldn’t affect Sawk’s endgame performance too much. Reversal at level 53 pairs nice with Sturdy-a 300 BP move is hilarious, but at best you’ll fire off one or two hits before kneeling over, and most users won’t likely see this level pre-ending, as Sawk’s E4 matchups are iffy.
Decent TM compatibility: Right when the initial power of Sawk kind of drops of around Castelia/Nimbassa or so (due to less than favorable matchups) it gets some decent TMs in Work Up, Retaliate, Dig, Rock Tomb, and Payback. While the latter two options are far from optimal (accuracy for Rock Tomb, Payback because Sawk is fast) they are still okay. Later on (if you detour for them) Poison Jab and Rock Slide can be helpful. However, this is basically all Sawk gets, and while Bulk Up with Fighting STAB is strong, it runs into issues against leaders (rivals/N are easy because Sawk can smash them after Work Up). While Sawk can set up on its unfavorable matchups, like other setup sweepers I don’t think it would quite sweep through Burgh, Elesa, and debatably Skyla (though you can likely Bulk Up on Swoobat) because all of their mons can get close in Speed, save for Burgh’s Whirlipede and Dwebble.
-Sturdy is a good niche not many fast mons have: Most other Sturdy users are slow/bulky attackers. Gigalith, Carracosta and Crustle have to boost before Sturdy is at full potential, and even then, the latter two can have trouble outrunning stuff like Caitlin’s Sigilyph.
And now, the negatives:
-The one big issue I have with Sawk is it’s midgame and endgame. As mentioned above, Sawk doesn’t have the best matchups midgame (barring gimmicky stuff like Counter), though I can easily see it sweeping Clay just fine, as well as having a strong mook showing in general. Endgame wise, I find it hard to see Sawk dominating like most of the S tiers. Shauntal is immune to STAB, Caitlin resists it, Marshall is neutral, and Grimsley (generally the easiest) is an obvious win. Compare this to most of the other S tiers, who generally only have one matchup they struggle with (Marshall for Excadrill for Scrafty) or can otherwise contribute with solid damage everywhere (Darmanitan, Archeops). Normally, I will not compare mons, but seeing as the S tier merits have been comparatively judged before this has precedent.
On the other hand, Sawk is significantly better against N and Ghetsis. The legendary dragon depends on version-You can Bulk Up on Zekrom, but you must heal, watch out for DragonBreath’s paralysis chance and Reflect use (though Brick Break shatters it). Reshiram is shakier because 150 Special Attack will smack anything hard. I could easily see Sawk plastering at least half of N’s team without setup, especially with Close Combat. You easily take Vanilluxe and Klinklang. Zoroark, while not a problem, poses a different threat in that it might outspeed and break Sawk’s Sturdy, which is relevant for N’s Archeops who will likely outspeed and OHKO. Carracosta you can beat, but it’s not recommended because it’ll wear you down thanks to Carracosta’s own Sturdy.
Against Ghetsis, Sawk is pretty good. It can beat Bisharp and Bouffalant, and is probably able to beat Hydreigon if it has Close Combat. You could maybe take on Sesmitoad and Eelektross in a one on one, though be wary that the latter has Acrobatics. Cofagrigus has Toxic and Psychic and is immune to Fighting so you can’t setup on his lead.
So, is Sawk an S tier? In my opinion, not quite, although it’s still very good. Sawk carried my team through a lot of the game the last time I used it, after all. A tier is largely reprehensive of fairly early mons with solid stats with decent matchups that you can use almost right away, or late mons that have good matchups after you obtain them.
Friendly reminder that we do not drop things ever.
The legendary dragon depends on version-You can Bulk Up on Zekrom, but you must heal, watch out for DragonBreath’s paralysis chance and Reflect use (though Brick Break shatters it). Reshiram is shakier because 150 Special Attack will smack anything hard.
Just mentioning:
A) N's Dragon never has Dragon Breath, only yours does. This is likely so your dragon always wins. Kind of dumb tbh
2) N's Dragons have the screen that protects them from the other dragon's STAB (thus Zekrom has Light Screen not Reflect)
Also:
I disagree on the basis that Sawk's midgame performance sucks. Sawk cannot crush Elesa only, all other Gym Leaders are majorly dent by Sawk. I don't see Counter myself a gimmick, since you don't have to go out of your way to either obtain it or to use it; both Leavanny and Whirlipede's only options on hitting it neutrally is with physical moves. Also, while it doesn't have good matchup against half the E4, the other half is singlehandlely defeated by Sawk (yes Marshal loses to Sawk). And as you mentioned, Sawk has a great matchup against N and Ghetsis; having a great matchup against Ghetsis, considering he's objectively the hardest battle, is not something to pass by.
What I tried to say earlier is that Sawk is on the principle of "Either makes or breaks the fight". Sawk does excellently well in every single fight in which it wins. And even in the ones it loses, it can contribute in some way. Which is why I believe Sawk is S rank material
Yeah, I have to disagree here. If a mon you are using is bad and has no good matchups in the future, it is perfectly fine to drop It, since the ranking is all but written in the sand (purrloin, simisear, patrat). If it's something that has yet to reach it's zenith (magnemite in usum for instance), dropping it before then is not a good idea.
There are two ways you could reach that conclusion:
1) by reading other people’s experiences with the Pokémon in the lategame
2) based on an on-paper analysis of its later matchups
Either way, you’re not properly completing your own assessment of the Pokémon.
I mean, people are free to drop any Pokémon they don’t want to use anymore, in any run. However, I don’t think you can make a nomination based on an incomplete run. You can either agree with previous users’ assessments of the Pokémon as far as you used it, deferring to their judgement for the remainder of the game, or you can say that you’re unable to comment on a Pokémon’s total performance altogether.
If you disagree with specific comments by other users and want to challenge their conclusions, you’ll have a tough time arguing for a change in ranking based on an incomplete run with the Pokémon at issue.
Yeah, I have to disagree here. If a mon you are using is bad and has no good matchups in the future, it is perfectly fine to drop It, since the ranking is all but written in the sand (purrloin, simisear, patrat). If it's something that has yet to reach it's zenith (magnemite in usum for instance), dropping it before then is not a good idea.
This encourages theorymonning. Something that I believe is frowned upon in testing and the forums related to testing. Additionally, I think its expected that if you pick a pokemon to test, you stick with it till the testing is over, I have yet to see anyone drop a member unless it was not in their testing roster. The point of testing Pansear is that it's placed too high and needs to be dropped. Based on my experiences up to this point, it is VERY lackluster.
As for Simisear, it has perfectly fine matchups in the game, it simply needs to boost to get kills. I have posted this numerous times explaining this. Not to mention you get Charcoal and Fire Stone Pre Lenora and Burgh respectively (right around it's failing point).
Magnemite got fixed in USUM anyway to have early access to Magnezone (USUM is relevant how in BW1? I fail to see why this example provides anything relating to this tier list). There have been people testing the Elemental Monkeys and its pretty much considered that Panpour is the best.
I both agree and disagree with that. First off, access to Yawn at Level 19 can make setting up quite a bit easier. Secondly, I actually kept it on my team until I ran out of party slots, and not because Darumaka was better. (I mean yeah it was but still.) In other words, I probably would have kept it had you been allowed 7 team slots. It does have some shortcomings, though. Base 30 power Incinerate is outclassed by Vine Whip and Water Gun of the other two monkeys, and its only other good level up move that it gets STAB in is Flame Burst which only has 70 power.
Perhaps the biggest problem for Pansear though is the avaliabliity of Fire-Types in this game. In a region with Emboar, Darmanitan, and Chandelure just to name a few, Pansear and its evolution have a hard time standing out with any specific niche, while already being outclassed by all of them except maybe Heatmor. This is a long stretch from the previous Generation as well, which depending on what Sinnoh game you're playing, only has two to five options available for Fire-Types, and HGSS only has Cyndaquil, the annoying Entei, Magmar, and a few other bottom tiers to work with. Oh, and Ho-Oh if you're playing HeartGold, but no one uses Legendaries often.
My current run has Yawn already. The issue with this is the wait for the sleep. You are either dead or dying at this point.
Then why did you drop it? You ran out of team slots? If I jumped to conclusions about you replacing it, I apologize, but when you state that it was replaced and I see Darumaka among the string, it makes me think you replaced Pre-Burgh.
Also to your HGSS "bottom tier" Fire types, they have more usability than Entei. Growlithe gets Physical Moves that Entei WISH he had, and Vulpix gets the earliest Flamethrower in the game (though it is a one trick pony).
There are two ways you could reach that conclusion:
1) by reading other people’s experiences with the Pokémon in the lategame
2) based on an on-paper analysis of its later matchups
Either way, you’re not properly completing your own assessment of the Pokémon.
I mean, people are free to drop any Pokémon they don’t want to use anymore, in any run. However, I don’t think you can make a nomination based on an incomplete run. You can either agree with previous users’ assessments of the Pokémon as far as you used it, deferring to their judgement for the remainder of the game, or you can say that you’re unable to comment on a Pokémon’s total performance altogether.
If you disagree with specific comments by other users and want to challenge their conclusions, you’ll have a tough time arguing for a change in ranking based on an incomplete run with the Pokémon at issue.
Since Simisear was dropped, I cannot seriously take this nomination. If you do want to nominate Simisear again, you would need to test it without dropping it.
At least with nominations I might disagree with like Sawk to S (who I might change my mind on) I can trust the user's experiences are legitimate and they actually stuck with the mon. But be careful with S noms. A is not a bad rank, but I want a general consensus (like at least 3 people with detailed write-ups) before something goes to S. Drilbur is one who is on the verge of this, as is Darumaka.
This encourages theorymonning. Something that I believe is frowned upon in testing and the forums related to testing. Additionally, I think its expected that if you pick a pokemon to test, you stick with it till the testing is over, I have yet to see anyone drop a member unless it was not in their testing roster. The point of testing Pansear is that it's placed too high and needs to be dropped. Based on my experiences up to this point, it is VERY lackluster.
As for Simisear, it has perfectly fine matchups in the game, it simply needs to boost to get kills. I have posted this numerous times explaining this. Not to mention you get Charcoal and Fire Stone Pre Lenora and Burgh respectively (right around it's failing point).
Magnemite got fixed in USUM anyway to have early access to Magnezone (USUM is relevant how in BW1? I fail to see why this example provides anything relating to this tier list). There have been people testing the Elemental Monkeys and its pretty much considered that Panpour is the best.
My current run has Yawn already. The issue with this is the wait for the sleep. You are either dead or dying at this point.
Then why did you drop it? You ran out of team slots? If I jumped to conclusions about you replacing it, I apologize, but when you state that it was replaced and I see Darumaka among the string, it makes me think you replaced Pre-Burgh.
Also to your HGSS "bottom tier" Fire types, they have more usability than Entei. Growlithe gets Physical Moves that Entei WISH he had, and Vulpix gets the earliest Flamethrower in the game (though it is a one trick pony).
I did use Darumaka during that fight, actually. Admittedly Pansear wasn't as useful as I hoped, but I still thought it would be worth mentioning. My original claim was that it could go as high as C Tier with the right usage. But looking back, I'm leaning a bit towards D Tier now, maybe even E Tier if you're all able to convince me. If anything, Pansear is probably one of the best out of the bottom tiers, which...really isn't saying much. I still think its TM compatibility and better Gym matchups than the other two monkeys are to be desired, but again, in a game full of powerful Fire-Types, that doesn't do much to set the poor thing apart. That, and the other two monkeys are more consistent anyway, even if it's not by a very large margin.
Edit To Prevent Double Posting: Entei is still probably the worst out of those Fire-Types, but this is Black and White, so that doesn't really matter, I will admit. Those two you mentioned are more easily available and can be used more efficiently.
I really don´t get all this bickering about Pansear. Like, why do so many people think it is so bad? D, E even? I really don't understand.
I have used it myself, and I found it to be comparable to Tepig. They have similar offensive stats, similar availability and similar coverage as well. Tepig is better early game, but Pansear, or Simisear I should say, has a much better mid game from the moment it evolves. Simisears gym matchups are actually much better on the whole due to having much better stats than Pignite, most notably having a lot more speed. I would argue that Tepig and Pansear should be in the same tier, which in my opinion should be B tier. Hell, I would argue that Pansear is actually BETTER than Tepig.
I also think Pansear is too similar to the other monkeys to be ranked so low. For the record, panpour is in A right now. The only differences between Panpour and Pansear are typing and Panpour having marginally better STAB options throughout the early and mid game. 30 bp incinerate vs 35 bp water gun and 70 bp flame burst vs 80 bp scald. This is definitely not enough for more than a tier difference in my books. By the way, Simisear is actually technically stronger in the late game because it has access to a 120 bp fire STAB in fire blast, compared to Simipours most powerful late game STAB in 95 bp surf. Sure, fire blast isn't reliable because pp issues, but you only need it for major fights anyway. You can just teach it over any coverage move you happen to not need for any specific fight. This way, you can keep flame burst as main STAB.
Pansear is probably staying in D. Based on Turdterra's experiences in his previous posts, it's actually quite awful, and the fact that you have to put up with Incinerate for 12 levels for a pretty mediocre Fire type anyway (sure, it's fast, but every other decent Fire type sans Emboar is fast enough for in-game) cements the fact that no one should really use it. Options for Fire types are sparse, but that doesn't mean Pansear shouldn't belong in the dumpster. Also we are not tiering Gen 4 and thus this rambling isn't relevant.
First off, my testing isn't done. I have had real life obligations. Second, Tepig is naturally better than Panser. Tepig is used in speedrun for a reason. He has a more diverse movepool, better stats, and can take hits better than Sear can. I've listed my journey with the Simisear and even have pointed out why I have not given it any physical moves. Third, I did not advocate for B. I stated that "You could make the arguement for B but no (or meaning you shouldn't)" I didn't even nom it to D. Those are my Initial Thoughts and my Final Thoughts have yet to be posted. I stated that It could fall to C.
Please read my posts correctly before saying I advocated for something I did not. I'm not trying to be rude, but you made it sound like I said something that I did not.
First off, my testing isn't done. I have had real life obligations and has pu Second, Tepig is naturally better than Panser. Tepig is used in speedrun for a reason. He has a more diverse movepool, better stats, and can take hits better than Sear can. I've listed my journey with the Simisear and even have pointed out why I have not given it any physical moves. Third, I did not advocate for B. I stated that "You could make the arguement for B but no (or meaning you shouldn't)" I didn't even nom it to D. Those are my Initial Thoughts and my Final Thoughts have yet to be posted. I stated that It could fall to C.
Please read my posts correctly before saying I advocated for something I did not. I'm not trying to be rude, but you made it sound like I said something that I did not.
As much as I think Pansear does deserve more love on this post (and in general), I am going to have to side with Turdterra on this one, although you both had very valid points brought up. Similar to Tier Lists designed for the Smash Bros franchise, the placement or Pokémon on this list is best determined when people are willing to try out the Pokémon and see just what they're capable of. On the flip side, it's still way better than the true bottom tiers of this game (Patrat, Purrloin, Deino, etc) and while it's no Emboar, it can still do SOME things. Some...
Lol, we should totally make an entire forum just to debate on this Pokémon-
Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize your test isn't done yet. I just remembered you saying that you could see it in B in the past, so I looked up that post of yours and didn't bother to double check if that was an actually official nom. If I did double check, I would have found that it was only a first impression. Again, I'm sorry.
The nom to D thing wasn't targeted at you, but at Drumstick. He said that 'Pansear is probably staying in D, based on Turdterra's experiences', so I pointed out that that is not right.
Oh, I apologize. I didn't realize your test isn't done yet. I just remembered you saying that you could see it in B in the past, so I looked up that post of yours and didn't bother to double check if that was an actually official nom. If I did double check, I would have found that it was only a first impression. Again, I'm sorry.
The nom to D thing wasn't targeted at you, but at Drumstick. He said that 'Pansear is probably staying in D, based on Turdterra's experiences', so I pointed out that that is not right.
