Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

What would you say is the best moveset for Whimsicott? For me I used Charm, Giga Drain, Tailwind and Leech Seed pretty much the whole game.
In retrospect, I realize I could have relearned Growth for the E4, most likely replacing Tailwind. Still though, even with Growth, I can't see it above C in good conscience, primarily because other Grass-type boosters exist and its performance pre-E4 isn't really anything to write home about.

Is anyone else still interested in doing testing for this tier list?
Yes, there are other Grass types that set up, but I don't think they shouldn't factor in to rating Cottonee's performance.

I'll see about getting back into this soon.
 

Punchshroom

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What would you say is the best moveset for Whimsicott? For me I used Charm, Giga Drain, Tailwind and Leech Seed pretty much the whole game.
In retrospect, I realize I could have relearned Growth for the E4, most likely replacing Tailwind. Still though, even with Growth, I can't see it above C in good conscience, primarily because other Grass-type boosters exist and its performance pre-E4 isn't really anything to write home about.
Since it doesn't really want to drop any of Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Charm
btw, in-game tier lists do not emphaszie performance against the competition as much as it focuses on the mom's individual performance.
 
btw, in-game tier lists do not emphaszie performance against the competition as much as it focuses on the mom's individual performance.
Personally, I see Whimisicott as a C with Stun Spore, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Charm. I used Tailwind over Stun Spore. When Charm is useful, the matchup will either take forever (Burgh, Skyla, Drayden, Marshall) and/or the opponent will still have super-effective attacks (Burgh again, Elesa, Skyla, Brycen, Grimsley, N). You can do decently against Shauntal, but without Light Screen (which I didn't use due to 4MSS) I don't see how you're sweeping Caitlin ever, and even then it is shaky due to the supreme bulk and hard-hitting nature of her mons.

Other stuff? I guess you could Charm Elesa's mons, but it would take awhile, and though unlikely they can use Volt Switch. Clay is tough due to Swagger/Torment. Skyla could maybe happen but it'd take an unholy amount of luck...Brycen...I guess you could Charm Beartic?

Against N...you can take on Zekrom in Black, but that has Light Screen so Whimsicott isn't killing it unless with Charm + Leech Seed + healing (which I have done, do not do this). You can take on Carracosta but only if you are close to full health (non-crit Stone Edge barely leaves you alive).

Ghetsis you could try to sweep with Growth, but my level 48 Whimsicott (using Giga Drain so no Prankster priority) was outsped and OHKOed by Fire Blast. You'd have to do some funky stuff with Tailwind or Substitute (maybe replace Charm before the final fights, but that still requires going out of the way in Twist Mountain) for it to work, and even then Hydreigon resists you.

Here's what a portion of C tier says: "Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents."

I think at best it's a C. Even when you can set up on a major battle's lead, if they have super-effective moves, I'd constitute that as pretty matchup-based, as Whimsicott isn't killing things directly without Growth, which is hard to do because crits will pop up if the battle lasts long enough (with my Marshall match as an example). If you use the moveset above, replace "item reliance" (Growth) with "the major battles take forever" (and even then you'll likely still use some items when setting up).

If you guys want Cottonee in B, I want more than a person or two advocating for it first.
 
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Codraroll

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UPDATE 6, AGAIN!
The previous post was deleted (and so will this be) because for one, it's barely coherent, and secondly, it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Make your own Let's Play thread if you want to post about your game progress.
 
The previous post was deleted (and so will this be) because for one, it's barely coherent, and secondly, it has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Make your own Let's Play thread if you want to post about your game progress.
It would have been nicte to see this earlier, but thanks anyway! I'll fix up my post!
 
Update 6(Fixed)

We’ve made it to the end folks. We’ve made it past Watchog’s of luck, brutal RnJesus, Super Bullshit and the world’s hardest Gym Leader; Iris. We did it all with the help of a samurai otter, an icedream cone, a birb, a sraggy man, a cottonball and the jelliest thing of all time.


We did it, and now it’s time to KICK ASS ONE! LAST! TIME!!! For the people at home, at work, at the nightclub or the Gym, it’s time to finish this!


VS N!(Kya is 51, same as Grimsley) done with everyone as resseting over and over again is mindnumbing

Kya leads off against the Tao beast. Kya eats a Fusion Flare for about 60% of her health while HJK does about 50% to it. Reshiram’s AI is broken however, and it goes for Hyper Beam for about the same damage after a heal. I set up a Work Up and heal as he goes for another Hyper Beam, allowing me to take out the Tao beast with a HJK… if it had hit and recoil takes out Kya. Unfez chips down the Tao dragon with Return doing 20% after a heal, but 2 Extrasensories put me out of my misery. Strawberry manages to eat the Extrasensory for Mirror Coat to do 40%, but Hyper Beam finishes me off. Cass comes in to finish it off with Revenge. The “real” Klingklang comes in and I sack off Samurott to Revive my Kya. A Work-Up boosted HJK kills while it misses and lands a Metal Sound. Zoroark comes in and i send out Callie to heal up Kya as she dies to a combination of Focus Blast(65%) and Flamethrower. I eat a Focus Blast for 75% of my health while Brick Breaks the back of this Zoroark. Vaniluxe comes out as i heal up to eat a Blizzard for ½ health. I heal to scout for a miss and get Hail instead, which opens up a BB OHKO on Vani after eating another Blizzard. Archeops is met by Mitosis who hits a Quick Claw+Thunder hit to kill it in one hit! Carracosta outspeeds and hits me with a Crunch for 55% of my health while Psychic does enough that hail chip will kill next turn. I sack Kya to heal up Mitosis for the kill after Quick Claw proves to be a godsend.


V.S Ghestsis

Cofagrigus may be cool, but it derps with T1 Toxic, allowing me to set up a Growth with Callie. Unfortunately, I got a Spdef drop with Callie, forcing me to sack her as Giga Drain only does 1/2 of it’s health at +1. Kya comes in for a free kill. Hydreigon comes in, intimidates my team for a whole 5 seconds and uses Focus Blast for 95% of my health while HJK misses. Having no Dark STAB, Mitosis comes in to hit it with QC HP Fighting for 20% of it’s health while Dragon Pulse aims for a 2HKO. Mitosis is useless so I sack him off to revive Kya. Healing her up, it hits with Focus Blast, forcing me to heal 3 WHOLE TIMES just to get that holy miss for a HJK kill at 80% of it’s health after dodging another one. Hitting Lvl 53, Bouffalant comes in and dies to HJK after being outsped. Eelektross outspeeds and hit’s with Wild Charge for about 70% with a crit as HJK finishes it off. Codraroll Seismitoad comes in only to fail to kill me with Earthquake from 30% as HJK finishes it off. Hitting 54,I heal one last time on the Bisharp as X-Scissor fails to do anything of note(20% lol) as Brick Break finishes it off.
Final Team.

173898

Kya the Scrafty(Impish, Moxie, 54)@Shell Bell HJK/BB/Crunch/Work UP

S tier lol. The savior of my team of worthless freaks. Takes nothing from anything, has a fantastic STAB combination, gets high-power moves to patch up it’s average Attack, and looks cool to boot. It is never a liability in any matchup, always puts in work and is a fantastic mon, arguably the best Fighting-Type in the game.

173899

Unfezant(Hasty, スーパーでたらめ, 48)@ Scope Shit Return/Fly/Roost/FeatherDance

This thing just blows late-game. It can clean up most of the bad mons here(Liepard, Throh) but when it comes to 1v1 situations against comparable enemies, it just does not do anything. The fact it was absolutely worthless against the last 2 fights of the game, and it’s general badness during the E4 makes it worthy of E/Z Tier imo: it simply cannot keep up late-game, it’s midgame is far from bad but not very good, and it’s earlygame is meh.

173904

Mitosis(Lvl 48, Magic Guard, Modest)@Quick Claw Psychic/Thunder/Shadow Ball/ HP Fighting

A Tier, with a good case for S IMO. This thing only needs 1-2 levels(and none if you pick up a Lvl 25 one) and the Eviolite to be a monster. Takes hits like nothing, hits ridiculously hard and barely requires healing at all. It has fantastic matchups in most important fights barring Clay, with it’s STAB and coverage being enough to tear holes in it’s time. However, it can be a potion sponge at times due to it’s good, but not great bulk and slowness. It also suffers from not being able to fight Dark-Types unless you get HP Fighting or want to A. Take a detour to get Focus Blast and B. Rely on it’s amazing accuracy. It’s great, mind you but those late-game Dark Types are enough to send it to A IMO. At least it’s one of the best Pokemon down there.

173901

Strawberry the Vanilluxe(Lvl 49, Ice Body, Hardy)@Lucky Egg Ice Beam/Flash Cannon/Acid Armor/Mirror Coat

This thing is pretty good IMO. It may be a slow starter, but once you pick up a couple of levels it’s fine. It’s a lot better when it evolves, but not amazing. It manages to suffer from the fact that it’s not very strong nor bulky ½ of the time, tough at least the 2nd part can be mitigated with the Eviolite. At least when it evolves, it can use it’s Mirror Coat and it’s powerful Ice Beam to lay down some pain on the E4. Probably would have done better in Black when Zekrom would have been a more managle threat, and if it was higher-leveled, it could have even foughten Hydreigon. It’s an OK mon, which is why C Tier suits it perfectly. Also Shiny Vanilluxe looks so good.

173903

Callie the Whimsicott(lvl 48, Prankster, Modest)@Amulet Coin Giga Drain/Growth/Hurricane/Shadow Ball

This thing just.. Kinda fell off late-game IMO. Soloing Marhsall was fun, but there is really nothing else it can do with a set like that. IT can take out some specific threats, but fails to do anything of note againsts the other big threats. It’s a shame too, it was surprisingly powerful during the Burgh-Skyla period, but just fell of after that moment. At least it’s usefulness then earns it a C Tier, but man. That sucks.

173905

BossCass the Samurott(Lvl 48, Torrent, Hardy) Surf/Blizzard/Return/Revenge

Packing power in every move from as early as the start to the 8th Gym, this thing has been a powerhouse for most of the game. Razor Shell is just broken until Clay, where it falls into just “very good” until Surf helps to bridge the gap. It also gets good coverage in Blizzard, Return, Dig, Revenge, Megahorn and Grass Knot. Only problem is the low Speed can hinder it in some matchups, it’s mediocre late-game special bulk and it’s not so good end-game matchups, but that early to mid game period definitely warrants A Tier.

So yeah, that's it! Let me know what you think of these noms, and stay tuned as I plan a new run.
 
I'm confused as to why Sawk isn't in S tier. Anyone who has used Sawk has said many times that it's S material. The tier list creator shouldn't have to confirm it himself when a general consensus should be plenty.

I also disagree with the tier list creator's insistence in seeing things to the end. There are Pokemon who can contribute early game, such as Yellow Butterfree, GSC Onix, or X/Y Farfetch'd who justifiably get a rank bump from great early performance but will eventually get dropped. There are situations where this should be followed, but it doesn't make since to adhere to it so strictly.
 
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I’M USING A LIEPARD
Who knows, maybe it could have some untapped potential. And maybe Luvdisc will see the light of OU someday.

Team looks pretty solid otherwise; and thanks for planning to test more. Curious if Simipour will be as effective for you as it was for me; are you getting the Snivy one or the one in Pinwheel Forest?
 
Who knows, maybe it could have some untapped potential. And maybe Luvdisc will see the light of OU someday.

Team looks pretty solid otherwise; and thanks for planning to test more. Curious if Simipour will be as effective for you as it was for me; are you getting the Snivy one or the one in Pinwheel Forest?
Definitely picking up Panpour ASAP, as Snivy will be useful as an HM Slave later on after Petlil(and as a somewhat decent battler early on) and Panpour is kinda necessary so i don't grind to get a Serperior before the 1st gym. Also picking up Liepard on Route 16, as early Purrloin is something no one should ever test ever.

Edit: Calm-Natured Snivy LMAO
 
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SUpdate(Start-Lenora)

Snivy's been OK even with the shit nature, gets the 2-3HKO's it needs and Leaf Tornado has been a well-recieved upgrade. While this will be it's last major battle, it's been fun. Beated up a dog with no mercy, split open the veins of bats and carries itself and it's monkey friend well into Lenora. Probably will keep it until I finish up my team, could be useful as death foddo.

Panpour's actually pretty good early-game. It's STAB is decently powerful and it gets some good early-game moves in Work-Up and Rock Smash. It's far from Lillipup or Dewott levels of good, and maybe the IV's I have may be picking up it's slack, but it's good. Beated up Pansear because it can, and has Rock Smash for Lenora.

As Lenora is thE first "difficult" fight of the run, i've decided to give a little monologue of what happened.

leki the Servine leads off to eat the meaningless Intimidate from Herider. Leaf Tornado does 35% while it goes for Leer. Leaf Tornado hits again while Take Down misses as Leaf Tornado finishes off Herider. leki forgets Tackle for Leech Seed as Watchog comes in. I sack Cobalt to Retaliate as leki comes in to Leech Seed on a missed Hypnosis. Leaf Tornado does 35% as i get Leered, and a combination of another Leaf Tornado and Leech Seed takes down the underrated rodent.

Can't wait to mess around with Petlil.

edit: ohmagud im so lucky

174904
 
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Supdate2(Burghers in Nimbasa City)

When your only mons are a slow Grass-Type(VagueKatti) and a monkay(Cobalt) whose best move is BITE, you know things aren't going to be good against a Bug Gym with Grass-Types. To prepare for this, I hacked in a Darmanitan grinded my team to Level 25 by fighting every single possible trainer up to and including Burgh's Gym. After thinking about, I decided to try out the greatest strategy I came up with.
V.S Burgher
T1: Mystic-Water boosted Scald OHKO's Whirlipede(SpA was 61). Lvl 26 after that.
T2: Leavanny comes in and gets bitten by Cobalt for 25%. Flinch
T3: Work Up into a Razor Leaf for 95% of my health.
T4: VagueKatti comes in on a Razor Leaf for 5% with Eviolite bulk.
T5: Struggle Buzz does 30%as it goes night-night.
T6: sends in a Lvl 17 Darumaka. still sleeping
T7: Chomped by Fire Fang. darumaka 2 stronk
T8: Dwebble comes in on Cobalt, who's healed by a Lemonade into a Smack Down for 10%.
T9: bye dwebble you're cute

Bianca and Cheren were LOL. Scald is 2 stronk, and Bite, Fire Fang(real MVP darm) and Magical Leaf murders everything else. Nimbasa City went as usual, although i will admit that Vague looks like fire here.
Screen Shot 2019-05-13 at 12.43.32 PM.png

Caught Emolga(Ryota M.) and Liepard(Turdterra) on Route 5. Emolga quickly got online with it's STABS being able to clean out the entirety of Route 5 and Desert Resort. Liepard took a little extra, but also got online pretty well. Cobalt, Turdterra, Ryota and VagueK. were all 27 by the time I decided to fight N.
N3: Electro Ball 2 strong(mixing it up, now). Elesa's Trainers were dealt with Scalds and Sparks from my Pokemon.
V .S Elesada
Cobalt: Mystic-Water boosted Scald OHKO's the Emolga's. Zebstrika barely misses an OHKO with Spark/Volt Switch while we do the same with Dig. The Soft Sand remedies this issue with Zeb, but the Emolga's prove to be annoying. B Tier in the context of a Water-Type

Ryota Mitarai: T-Wave+Electro Ball is a guranteed OHKO on the Emolga. Zebstrika's LightningRod makes it an impossible fight.

Turdterra: Fake Out+Pursuit does a good chunk to Emolga while Volt Switch does about 45%. Hone Claw spam with 1-2 heals allows an easy sweep. At +3, BlackGlasses boosted Pursuit OHKO's both Emolga and 2HKO's Zebstrika. Unfortunately, Zeb outsped and 2HKO'd me, making this impossible

VagueKatti(Note: Had 58 Speed going into this fight): Emolga derped with Pursuit for 5% while it went night-night with Sleep Powder. Got to +4 and OHKO'd every mon with Giga Drain.
 

DHR-107

Robot from the Future
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Orange Islands
You have been told multiple times this is not a "Lets Play" thread.

It's still not a let's play thread. This is your final warning and I will give you infractions if you continue. Play the game through and post what you think/where you got mons. We do not need constant updates filling the thread with nothing useful. Naming Pokemon something entirely random which isn't their species name is also not helpful at all.

Why are you level 25 vs Burgh? That's insanely high. His ace is only 23? You appear to be massively overlevelled for this section of the game. Elesa's ace is only 27. This run is not proving anything at all.
 
You have been told multiple times this is not a "Lets Play" thread.

It's still not a let's play thread. This is your final warning and I will give you infractions if you continue. Play the game through and post what you think/where you got mons. We do not need constant updates filling the thread with nothing useful. Naming Pokemon something entirely random which isn't their species name is also not helpful at all.

Why are you level 25 vs Burgh? That's insanely high. His ace is only 23? You appear to be massively overlevelled for this section of the game. Elesa's ace is only 27. This run is not proving anything at all.
On the part where you said that my friends feel like a let’s play, I admit that Iooking back on these posts, I can see where you’re coming from. I’ll try harder to make my posts feel more like a proper battle log and what I think of my Pokémon.

On the second part however, I call some bull crap on that. Yes, I was Lvl 25, but I didn’t grind on Audino all day or do something out of the way. Instead, I fought every single fightable trainer you can fight pre-Burgh, including the Battle Company and Route 4. Having only 2 Pokémon on my team also contributed to my level.
 
I'm doing another playthrough, currently using Liepard and Simisage. I just beat Burgh and I'm off to Nimbasa city now. I'm definitely picking up Dwebble and Vannilish soon. For the last pokemon, I can test either one of the dragon types (Druddigon or Axew) or Stunfisk. So let me know which one of these three pokemon you want me to test.

So here's the matchup of Purrloin and Pansage so far.

Cress
- Purrloin (11): oh god. Both Lillipups tackle and Panpours water gun 2HKO, so Purrloin can only use one move before going down (possibly two on Lillipup if you're faster). And that is the optimal scenario where Cress' pokemon don't bother boosting up with work up. Stratch doesn't do much damage, so you're probably better off using growl or gambling for vine whip with assist, which might do some damage to Panpour. I didn't actually bother testing this, but it hardly matters anyway. In short, Purrloin is absolute trash, as expected.

- Pansage (11): Vine whip is a 5HKO on Lillipup, while Pansage can take three tackles in return. So, you either need tail whip support from Tepig, or you need to have Pansage set up some leers itself and make use of potions. Pansage has a clear win on Panpour. You might need to use another potion depending on how well the matchup against Lillipup went. Overall, Pansage has an above average matchup here, but it does need some support.

Soon after beating Cress, Purrloin got her first STAB in... thief. It's not much, but at least it can beat some things on its own now which speeds up training a bit. I decided to favour leveling Purrloin over Pansage in order to evolve it right before Lenora. I also captured a random Sawk I encountered as a safety net for Lenora.

Lenora
- Liepard (20): Rock smash was actually surprisingly strong, you know... for a Liepard, 3HKO'ing both Herdier and Watchog. However, both take down and unboosted Vengeance 2HKO back. This means that your best bet is beating Watchhog with a chesto berry equiped, and praying it uses hypnosis turn one. If it goes for hypnosis on turn two, and it lands, Liepard is still screwed though. Overall, it's a decent cleaner, but very unreliable otherwise.

- Pansage (17): Pansage is actually quite similar in performance to Liepard. It can deal some damage with rock smash, but it gets 2HKO'd in return. It can use leech seed, which is a decent option when combined with a tank such as Roggenrola or Audino. Like Liepard, it's below average but not utterly terrible.

I did actually have to resort to the Sawk I caught for finishing off Watchog, so I guess that says something about Liepards and Pansages performance here. Anyway, Pinwheel was annoying because Pansages vine whip is so weak and Liepards bulk is so bad and there are so many bugs, so I had to use quite some healing items. I fought the three dancers for an amulet coin and the first floor of the battle company. I will use the second floor of the battle company for training up Dwebble, since I suspect that I have to rely on Dwebble a lot for Elesa. After also beating the clowns in Burghs gym, both my pokemon were level 23.

So regarding the post above, I guess that I can confirm that getting to level 25 without Audino grinding is sort of plausible if you have just two pokemon, but I don't understand why you had to grind out the battle company and especially route 4 in the first place. Simipour should easily handle Whirlipede and Dwebble, even at level 22 when you evolve it. If you were planning to use a Darumaka against Leavanny, than there is literally no reason to grind out your simipour and especially Petilil (which didn't even see use against Burgh, which should have been easy to predict). Grinding to level 25 just made you overleveled for Elesa. So in short, while I agree that it's not unreasonable to reach level 25 before Burgh if you only use two pokemon, the decision to even grind to level 25 in the first place is questionable. That's just my two cents anyway. I thought it would be relevent to bring up since I'm also using just two pokemon. Back to my own Playthrough then.

Burgh
- Liepard (23): it needs a fake out and three pursuits to kill Whirlipede. This doesn't look too impressive, but Whirlipede is actually really weak, needing five poison tails to kill Liepard assuming no crits or poison hax. However, Burgh does have two healing items, so you have to use a healing item of your own to keep up. Liepard can beat Dwebble one on one as well, but not both. Leavanny outdamages it significantly. Overall, average to below average matchup. I find it funny that Liepards low damage is actually quite helpful here since it makes Burgh waste his potions on Whirlipede, which makes the fight against Leavanny much easier for Simisage to handle.

- Simisage (23): Whirlipedes poison tail is only a 4HKO, so Simisage actually beats it one on one with bite. It can set up on Dwebble, because struggle bug doesn't do much damage despite it being super effective. However, sometimes it goes for sand attack instead, so I advice you to not set up more than one work up. You only need that one work up to OHKO Dwebble with seed bomb anyway. Leavanny spams protect a lot, so you are free to set up more work ups every other turn. Bite kills in about three hits depending on how many boosts you have. Overall, its an above average matchup, quite impressive for a grass type.
 
Okay, so I’ve read the last few posts. I tried glancing back through the thread and some of my previous posts don’t seem to give many concrete levels save for being around 22 at Castelia in the first. I notice I had a Gurdurr for Burgh (I think I may have had a Palpitoad then too) so I was likely around 24-25 (I think I grinded all around Castelia in that first run pre-Burgh). I apologize for this. I can’t check my levels easily right now since while I should have save states for the bosses my computer is out of commission.

In my opinion, being overleveled for Burgh is kinda easy unless you ignore the optional stuff for later members (which isn’t always good because of reduced Exp at higher levels) I remember I wanted to get Audino to 20 for Secret Power for Lenora, so assuming my team was around 20s at Pinwheel in most runs, that’s only a few levels off Burgh...when you have Route 4 Trainers, the Battle Company, the dancer guys for Amulet Coin...I think the only time i grinded outright was for Lenora and maybe Elesa? Unsure. At any case, it necessitates playing at a slightly different mindset.

Regardless, I don’t think being overleveled for midgame is that big a deal. In my experience, the game always catches up to you in the endgame, as once you get past Twist Mountain, aside from Team Plasma the trainer count goes down a fair bit if you don’t go for optional stuff. All I care about is people being competently leveled for the League (around 46-51) at the end. I can stomach being a few levels over a certain boss if it helps (examples being a level 29 Drilbur at Elesa for Rock Slide or a monkey at 22 for better STAB for Lenora). In any case, I’m going to try to do another run soon. From now on, I think being at max 2 levels over a boss’s strongest should be the benchmark we should set, though you can be lower of course.

Magnus0, test Axew. I think it’s a forgone conclusion it sweeps most of the League, but we haven’t had much feedback on it either. I’ve used Stunfisk before in like a Nuzlocke or something but I’ll keep a slot open for it in this next playthrough. Don’t think it’ll accomplish much but we will see. Druddigon, while it was good for me, I feel is a definite C, mostly because of how late it comes. That said, others can test Druddigon, Axew, or Stunfisk if they want to, I just think Axew is the most important of the three.

I also want to apologize and say that I know haven’t been running this thread the best throughout like with the Sawk stubbornness and other mishaps, which is why I was kinda hesitant to look back at my old posts (I’m not proud of some of them because I often put my opinion on a pedestal). There has been many ups and downs but I do want to keep it going and see it through to the end. Thanks to everyone for your contributions and constructive criticism, as well as your patience with me.

For my upcoming cartridge playthrough I will likely be using Gigalith, Sawk (don’t worry, I’ll be fair to it), Krookodile, Sigilyph and Ferrothorn (I think we agreed on four members in the past but I want to test most of the A ranks because opinions of them save Sawk have been rare).
 
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SUpdate 3

Caught Karrablast on Route 6 prior to the Cold Storage. Evolved it ASAP and cleaned out the Cold Storage and Clay's Gym easily. Also took care or Route 6 prior to Clay

V.S Clay
Cobalt the Simipour(30): Mystic-Water boosted Scald OHKO's Krokorok&Excadrill and 2HKO's Palpitoad. Bulldoze does 22 damage, but you still outspeed at -1. An incredibly easy matchup, only issue would be it using Muddy Water and accuracy hax. S Tier

VagueKatti the Lilligant(30): Miracle-Seed boosted Giga Drain OHKO's Krokorok and Emperor Palpitoad and 2HKO's Excadrill. Miracle Seed is required for the guaranteed 2HKO, otherwise a +1 Rock Slide may have a shot at a OHKO. S Tier.

Ryota Mitarai the Emolga(31): If it wasn't for the fact that Acrobatics is so good atm, this would have been a shit matchup that I wouldn't use it against even with the type advantage. Krokorok will live an Acrobatics, and goes for Torment, which is just so useful or Swagger, which is the only way we can win this fight. With a Persim Berry/Full Heal, you can essantily have a +2 Sky Attack you can use against Palpitoad, which OHKo's it.
The only way you're breaking past Excadrill is to pray it doesn't go for Rock Slide and get's Staticed with some hax mixed in: +2 Acrobatics 2HKO's. Still had some suprising utility despite it's problems with Krokorok, but it's worthy of D Tier i guess.

Turdterra the Liepard(30); Setting up on Krokorok is not an option: Torment and Swagger makes it far too dangerous to take on. Instead, Fake Out+2 Returns would kill it, unless it didn't know Bulldoze. Because it outspeeds at -1, it can easily get a Torment+Swagger off. The only way you ca n beat him is if Swagger does not make you hit yourself in confusion, a +2 hit from confusion kills after Bulldoze damage. Setting up on Palpitoad is probably for the best, as it usually goes for Aqua Ring T1 and then uses Muddy Water for a 2HKO. As long as Accuracy hax doesn't get you, Return OHKO's at +3. Excadrill unfourtanley can't be taken out by any means, and straight up kills with Bulldoze. this is a joke E Tier.

Magnus0 the Escavalier(31): You're slower than Krokorok, so Swagger is a real bitch in this fight. Still, Bug Buzz or a +2 Headbutt muders the Krok, and sets you up nicely for the rest of the battle. +2 Headbutt OHKO's Palpitoad and a +2 Rock Smash barely misses the OHKO, but most likely he'll heal and you'll beat it 1v1. The main problem with this battle is the fact that you are slower than everything in this fight, so getting haxed by Muddy Water and Rock Slide is a real concern in this fight. Still, if you get some good luck this fight is a cinch so I give it a B Tier.
 
Elesa
- Liepard (27): I'm shocked, Liepard soloed this. It outspeeds both Emolga's and it can take two volt switches. That means that it can set up two hone claws and OHKO the Emolgas with return consistently. When Zebstrika comes out, you have to heal up, but then it gets a bit tricky. If Liepard is faster, it just straight up wins, but mine wasn't faster. If Liepard is in red from taking two volt switches, Zebstrika will use quick attack while you heal. This is good, because even if Zebstrika is faster, it can't KO Liepard on the following turn so you can OHKO back with a +2 return. However, if you don't get into red from the volt switches, Zebstrika will use either spark or flame charge as you heal. Flame charge is also fine, because Zeb can't KO Liepard on the following turn. Spark is bad though, since spark is a 2HKO. In this case, you can use some lower-tier healing item strats to get Liepard into red from spark, to force a quick attack.

So long story short, in the best case scenario Liepard outspeeds and OHKO's everything after two hone claws, and in the worst case scenario you have to use healing items to manipulate the AI. Either way, Liepard soloes this, so I would consider this a great matchup.

- Simisage (27): Both Emolga's aerial ace and Zebstrika's flame charge are a 3HKO, so Simisage can take two attacks, which can be enough to solo. After one work up, rock tomb OHKO's the emolga's. However, this was a range for me, so you do need good IV's or an extra level or two for this to be consistant. Zebstrika can't KO with flame charge even after an aerial ace, so you can OHKO it with a +1 seed bomb. Overall, not the most consistant matchup, but definitely good still.

- Dwebble (26): stealth rocks is incredibly useful for this one matchup. The emolga's just kill themselves on the rocks. Volt switch is a 3HKO with eviolite, so you have time to set up rock polish. After a rock polish, Dwebble outspeeds the Emolga's so you can put some damage on them with smack down. Bug bite is a 3HKO on Zebstrika. If you really need to, you can solo it with Dwebble but you do need some super potions for that. Overall, good matchup.

Clay

- Liepard (30): fake out + grass knot takes out Krokorok. Palpitoad is 2HKO'd by grass knot, but it seems to always use aqua ring so it might as well be a OHKO. Liepard is completely worthless against Excadrill though. Overall, decent matchup.

- Simisage (30): Krook and Palpitoad are both OHKO'd by seed bomb, unsurprisingly. With miracle seed, it's a 2HKO on Excadrill. Easy solo

- Dwebble (29): After a swagger, bug bite OHKO's krook. unboosted dig is a 3HKO on Excadrill, which isn't really enough to be useful. Dwebble also fails to deal much damage to Palpitoad before going down. Overall, it's a quite poor matchup.

- Vannilite (27): Similar to Dwebble, Vannilite can OHKO krook after a swagger with avalanche. At full health with an eviolite, it can barely take a rock slide from Excadrill and lower its speed with icy wind, which can be useful. Against Palpitoad, it can set up a light screen and tank for a bit, but it doesn't deal much damage to Palpitoad so it's not the most effecient tactic. Overall, it's a decent-ish matchup.

Question: Do we have to report on the fights against N, Cheren and Bianca? I have neglected to do this because I feel like it's kind of pointless. You know, none of these fights are particularly difficult, so is it really necessary to talk about them?
 
Question: Do we have to report on the fights against N, Cheren and Bianca? I have neglected to do this because I feel like it's kind of pointless. You know, none of these fights are particularly difficult, so is it really necessary to talk about them?
The only “difficult” fight of the three is really N’s Sigylyph in round 3, but even that’s not really worth mentioning to a prepared team. The only time N gave my team real trouble in the past is round 4 with my Stoutland solo (the only matchup it’s kinda meh in but you can still win through attrition. You can at least take out Joltik easily, or the others via Dig.)

Bianca is manageable, though her third and fourth fights aren’t easy due to Musharna and Intimidate Stoutland Cheren = lol, unless you gave him Simipour which can cause havoc.

TLDR: I’d say yes, the rival fights are pretty unnecessary, but feel free to use them for supplementary reasons in major battles if you want. Some mons like Throh/Sawk are pretty good in them, when everything else you have aren’t really fully evolved yet.
 
Nice list, only gripe i have is with darumaka being a rank. I'll be comparing it with a fellow s rank archen.

I argue that darmanitan is the second best route cleaner in the game, only surpassed by flappy bird. People like to praise archeops for its risk free STAB acrobatics but darmanitan has access to fire punch, sheer force and an item slot in charcoal, which if i'm correct, lets it hit HARDER.

252 Atk Charcoal Sheer Force Darmanitan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 304-358 (104.4 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 286-337 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And, that's not mentioning its thermo nuclear machine of flare blitz which completely obliterates every non resist route mons. But, due to how strong fire punch, you won't usually need to use it more than once per route, especially considering you have other mons in your teams. Between these two moves, superpower and rock slide, there is nothing other than boldore (with which archeops also struggles with), drudigoon and fully evolved water mons (again not mons arch likes)

I admit Arch does have better speed than darm but of all the mons around their speed tier (liepard, simis, emolga, galvantula,,swoobat, durant, whimis, scoli, cinccino), only emolga's acrobatics and galvantula's electric attacks pose some threat to darm (both of whom still get destroyed by darm 1v1) so the speed advantage doesn't matter that much . I am intentionally leaving out simipour and swanna here cuz they're water types but the eved darm's usually faster than the route swannas to ko it with rock slide. Arch also has its own issues like flying resists and defeatist.

That leaves the boss matchups.
Burgh-Darumaka destroys, Archen doesn't exist 1-0
Elesa-Darumaka can at least contribute with fire punch and eviolite but archen is legit destroyed 0.3-0
Clay-Daru completely useless, but archen can beat krokorok and maybe excadrill with dig 0-0.6
Skyla-Daru can barely contribute while archen destroys 2 mons 0.1-0.6
Byrcen-both destroys but do keep in mind rock slide can miss 1-1
Iris-Darmanitan can 1v1 fraxure and with shit like belly drum can actually sweep, arch is stronk and more consistent 0.5-0.8

Shauntal-They both beat cofag and chandy, arch is better against jelly, darm hits golurk harder with flare blitz 0.6-0.6
Caitlin- darm can 1v1 everything with its strength, on the other hand, everything brings arch to defeatist but arch is still stronk , 0.6-0.5
Grimsley-They both beat liepard, bisharp destroyed by darm while arch handles scraft. But unlike arch, darm can 1v1 scraft if it chooses to not take on liepard. Krook beats both anyway due to intimidate. 0.7-0.65
Marshal-Darm beats throh and can leave everything else in near death, arch sweep only needs sturdy sawk broken 0.5-0.9

For N and Ghetesis, since they're final, hard bosses and has six mons, i'll take the limit to 1.5.
N-Darm beats klink and vanilluxe, zoaroak too risky, can contribute against costa with superpower. Arch, on the other hand, can sorta handle reshiram but zoaroak is too risky for it as well. Others are no-no and from my experience, the vanilluxe lives rock slide from my high attack iv arch and kos back with ice beam. 0.6-0.5
Ghetesis-Darm beats bisharp, cofag and elektross due to its high base power. Arch beats cofag and can sorta contribute one acrobatics. 0.75-0.4

Keep in mind, darm can spam flare blitz in these boss matches.

Overall 6.65-6.65 (if zekrom, archeops is actually lower) Now opinions might obviously differ but i honestly doubt the two's gym contributions are much more different than a point or two.

The only thing that could push darm to a is its so-called babying period(i personally always hit with hustle so maybe i'm biased) compared to the broken archen but darm is available earlier, evolve faster and destroys fellow unevolved route mons if it hits. But, in that case, I can sorta understand it not being on par with the other s ranks but being in the same rank with panpour, lilipup and tepig just doesn't seem right to me.
 
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Skyla
- Liepard (35): I managed to solo this again. I used hone claws on turn one as Swoobat used acrobatics. Assurance took out Swoobat, and Skyla threw out Unfezant. I used hone claws again, because the AI seems to always wast time on razor wind. Liepard can actually take the razor wind, as long as it doesn't crit at least, and set up a third hone claws. Then you need to heal since Unfezant has quick attack. After that, both Unfezant and Swanna are OHKO'd by a +3 assurance. Good matchup

- Simisage (35): Simisage also soloed this. You only need one work up to OHKO all of Skyla's pokemon with rock tomb. You do need the expert belt for this though. So basically, you set up one work up on Swoobat and then just outspeed and sweep everything. If Swoobat uses amnesia, which it does sometimes but not consistently, you can set up another work up to make the matchup even more consistant. Good matchup

- Crustle (35): set up a rock polish/shell smash and sweep with rock slide. Easy

- Vanillish (35): Swoobat and Unfezant are both OHKO'd by ice beam. Swanna can take two hits, but it can't deal much damage back even though it outspeeds Vaniluxe. Good matchup.

Moral of the story: Skyla is trash

Brycen
- Liepard (37): Liepard soloes this, but it does take a while. As you set up hone claws, Vanillish sets up acid armour. You have to boost up all the way to +6 to break through Vanillish. The AI doesn't seem to realize that frost breath does more damage than mirror shot, so Vanillish just spams the very weak mirror shot until it dies. When you break through Vanillish, both Beartic and Cryogonal are outsped and OHKO'd. Good matchup.

Liepard actually gets taunt at level 38. I haven´t tested taunt personally, but it could be an interesting option here to shut down Vanillish.

- Simisage (38): Vanillish sets up acid armour again as you set up work up. You can 2HKO the popsicle with brick break at +1, even though Vanillish boosts up its defense. Beartic survives a brick break, but fails to OHKO back with icicle crash thanks to the yache berry. Cryogonal is outsped and OHKO'd by brick break. good matchup

- Crustle (37): rock polish/shell smash and sweep with rock slide. Again, easy

- Vanillish (37): flash cannon is a 3HKO on the opposing Vanillish. Beartic is also 3HKO'd, however, you do need the expert belt for that. Cryogonal also can't do anything back, so you can muddle through spamming flash cannon. Really, the whole matchup is just spamming flash cannon until you win tbh. You might need one healing item. Good matchup if you use expert belt over eviolite.

- Axew (35): Axew just doesn't have the stats to do anything against Brycen. It's useless here. Fraxure might be able to deal some damage, but I don´t think it´s reasonable to expect a level 30 Axew in the slow exp group to reach level 38 before Brycen.

Moral of the story: Brycen is also trash

Drayden
- Liepard (40): you can't set up hone claws here because Fraxure or Haxorus because both OHKO Liepard with just one dragon dance. Without boosts, it's too weak to deal any meaningful damage. Liepard is just bad here.

- Simisage (40): Simisage has a similar problem in that it just can't set up consistently. However, Simisage can actually 2HKO Fraxure with an unboosted return (might need silk scarf). It can put some damage on Haxorus as well with just unboosted return. Druddigon is a bad matchup though, thanks to rough skin and it's good bulk. Overall, mediocre matchup.

- Crustle (40): Crustle can actually set up simply because shell smash is such a good boosting skill. Fraxure and Haxorus are OHKO'd by x-scissor after a boost, but Druddigon survives. Crustle can take a hit well though, even after a defense drop, so this shouldn't cause a problem. Good matchup.

- Vanillish (41): Fraxure is outsped and OHKO'd by ice beam. Haxorus isn't technically outsped, but you can still beat it because of dragon tail's negative priority. Druddigon takes the ice beam well though, and it also OHKO's back with return. Overall, pretty good matchup.

- Fraxure (40): Fraxure OHKO's both the opposing Fraxure and Haxorus with dragon claw (you do need a dragon fang). Druddigon can take the hit again and it OHKO's back with dragon tail. Also a pretty good matchup.
 
Nice list, only gripe i have is with darumaka being a rank. I'll be comparing it with a fellow s rank archen.

I argue that darmanitan is the second best route cleaner in the game, only surpassed by flappy bird. People like to praise archeops for its risk free STAB acrobatics but darmanitan has access to fire punch, sheer force and an item slot in charcoal, which if i'm correct, lets it hit HARDER.

252 Atk Charcoal Sheer Force Darmanitan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 304-358 (104.4 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 286-337 (98.2 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And, that's not mentioning its thermo nuclear machine of flare blitz which completely obliterates every non resist route mons. But, due to how strong fire punch, you won't usually need to use it more than once per route, especially considering you have other mons in your teams. Between these two moves, superpower and rock slide, there is nothing other than boldore (with which archeops also struggles with), drudigoon and fully evolved water mons (again not mons arch likes)

I admit Arch does have better speed than darm but of all the mons around their speed tier (liepard, simis, emolga, galvantula,,swoobat, durant, whimis, scoli, cinccino), only emolga's acrobatics and galvantula's electric attacks pose some threat to darm (both of whom still get destroyed by darm 1v1) so the speed advantage doesn't matter that much . I am intentionally leaving out simipour and swanna here cuz they're water types but the eved darm's usually faster than the route swannas to ko it with rock slide. Arch also has its own issues like flying resists and defeatist.

That leaves the boss matchups.
Burgh-Darumaka destroys, Archen doesn't exist 1-0
Elesa-Darumaka can at least contribute with fire punch and eviolite but archen is legit destroyed 0.3-0
Clay-Daru completely useless, but archen can beat krokorok and maybe excadrill with dig 0-0.6
Skyla-Daru can barely contribute while archen destroys 2 mons 0.1-0.6
Byrcen-both destroys but do keep in mind rock slide can miss 1-1
Iris-Darmanitan can 1v1 fraxure and with shit like belly drum can actually sweep, arch is stronk and more consistent 0.5-0.8

Shauntal-They both beat cofag and chandy, arch is better against jelly, darm hits golurk harder with flare blitz 0.6-0.6
Caitlin- darm can 1v1 everything with its strength, on the other hand, everything brings arch to defeatist but arch is still stronk , 0.6-0.5
Grimsley-They both beat liepard, bisharp destroyed by darm while arch handles scraft. But unlike arch, darm can 1v1 scraft if it chooses to not take on liepard. Krook beats both anyway due to intimidate. 0.7-0.65
Marshal-Darm beats throh and can leave everything else in near death, arch sweep only needs sturdy sawk broken 0.5-0.9

For N and Ghetesis, since they're final, hard bosses and has six mons, i'll take the limit to 1.5.
N-Darm beats klink and vanilluxe, zoaroak too risky, can contribute against costa with superpower. Arch, on the other hand, can sorta handle reshiram but zoaroak is too risky for it as well. Others are no-no and from my experience, the vanilluxe lives rock slide from my high attack iv arch and kos back with ice beam. 0.6-0.5
Ghetesis-Darm beats bisharp, cofag and elektross due to its high base power. Arch beats cofag and can sorta contribute one acrobatics. 0.75-0.4

Keep in mind, darm can spam flare blitz in these boss matches.

Overall 6.65-6.65 (if zekrom, archeops is actually lower) Now opinions might obviously differ but i honestly doubt the two's gym contributions are much more different than a point or two.

The only thing that could push darm to a is its so-called babying period(i personally always hit with hustle so maybe i'm biased) compared to the broken archen but darm is available earlier, evolve faster and destroys fellow unevolved route mons if it hits. But, in that case, I can sorta understand it not being on par with the other s ranks but being in the same rank with panpour, lilipup and tepig just doesn't seem right to me.
Wanted to pop in briefly to say I don’t mind Darumaka going to S. The only reason I didn’t reply right away was because I want to give the post some time to stew. To my memory, 3 people have wanted in the past not counting me, and 2 have been against it. Hada Yaba made some decent points up above at least, though I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have Darmanitan before Skyla. You can at least Flare Blitz anything not named Swanna.

What do you guys think? Is the Hustle inconsistency enough to keep it in A?

As for the reputation of those three A ranks specifically, here’s my reasoning:
-Lillipup is in A because it is reliable the whole game. Boss mons don’t like Return at all, and it doesn’t fall off because you sweep Shauntal and Ghetsis if you get Substitute. It is kinda mediocre as Herdier but never completely useless because you still have Take Down and Crunch, which are fairly strong early on.

-Panpour is easily the second best Water type. While it isn’t amazing with Water Gun it does fine enough. Once you get Scald it obliterates things with a combo of high offenses and Speed no good Water type can really match aside from Basculin (Adaptability Aqua Tail/Waterfall hurts, people). It gets all the coverage you could want but Scald is really all it needs because there is only a few Water resists in this game, and Shadow Claw/Brick Break are not out of the way.

-Tepig is in A because two very well-informed people support it. It’s kinda mediocre as Pignite post-Burgh, but I’m not sure if that’s enough to drag it down to B, as Flame Charge is still solid early on against mooks despite pretty bad midgame matchups. More opinions on it would definitely be welcome though.
 

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