Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

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with some lucky egg and exp. share switching and some rare candies, I managed to evolve both Vanillish and Fraxure right before the E4. This does mean that Liepard, Simisage and Crustle are a little bit underleveled here, at least compared to what level they could have had, but I don't think it's that big of a deal overall.

Shauntal
- Liepard (44): with a rawst berry equiped to make Cofagrigus waste a turn, Liepard can set up three hone claw boosts. With those three boosts, Liepard outspeeds and OHKO's Shauntals entire team with night slash. You might need one healing item to get rid of burn, but other than that it's a great matchup for Liepard.

- Simisage (43): Simisage can't set up on cofagrigus in the same way as Liepard because Cofagrigus' shadow ball is a 2HKO. Without set-up, Chandelure beats Simisage as well. Simi 2HKO's both Jellicent and Golurk though, and it's a OHKO with a work up boosts. If you boost up on either Jellicent or Golurk, you can also put heavy damage on Chandelure with dig, but not enough to OHKO. Overall, decent matchup.

- Crustle (44): even with two shell smashes, Crustle fails to OHKO Cofagrigus with shadow claw, so there is no way to set up here. Golurk and Jellicent can be set up on thanks to sturdy, but Crusle still fails in OHKO'ing either of them. He comes close though, so with some better IV's or an extra level or two, it mightbe possible to OHKO Golurk and Jellicent with shadow claw. With sturdy active, Crustle memes on Chandelure though with shell smash + rock slide. For me, it was a below average matchup, but I can see how other people might have more success with Crustle here.

- Vanilluxe (47): Cofagrigus is cleanly 2HKO'd by ice beam. Shauntal then sends out Chandelure, which Vanilluxe has no way of beating, so you have to switch. Golurk is outsped and OHKOd by ice beam, and Jellicent can be 2HKO'd by mirror coat. You might need one healing item against Jellicent if you already took a shadow ball from Cofagrigus. Overall, pretty good matchup.

- Haxorus (48): Haxorus can set up two swords dances on Cofagrigus, again with a rawst berry to make Haxorus waste a turn. At plus 4, Haxorus just outspeeds and OHKO's everything with dragon claw. You might need a healing item to get rid of the burn. Overall, great matchup.


Grimsley

- Liepard (45): It's useless... Fails to kill anything, or even deal damage at all. Dies to everything as well. The opposing Liepard is the only somewhat OK matchup. Terrible

- Simisage (43): Simisage can't set up on Scrafty because poison jab is a 2HKO. Against the three other pokemon, Simisage can do a lot of damage, but all of the three matchups are risky, to put it lightly. It can 2HKO Bisharp with brick break at full HP. It also can beat Liepard and Krook if it outspeeds. Mine didn't outspeed either Liepard or Krook, so it could only deal heavy damage before going down. Overall, it's an iffy, but not totally bad matchup, similar to Crustle vs Shauntal.

- Crustle (44): This matchup is not as great as it looks at first. It can't beat Scrafty reliably. It needs two shell smashes to 2HKO Scrafty, but Crustle is already dead before getting that 2HKO because of the defense drops. Krook and Liepard are both OHKO'd after a boost (taking Krooks intimidate into acount), but Bisharp survives and deals heavy damage with metal claw. Overall, it's still a good matchup for Crustle, but it's not as good as I had hoped.

- Vanilluxe (47): Scrafty is not actually very strong, so Vanilluxe can set up acid armour on it. After three acid armours, Vanilluxe takes minimal damage from Grimsleys entire team. After the setup, it's just a matter of spamming ice beam. Bisharp is annoying because he takes long to take down with ice beam, but he can't break through Vanilluxe without a crit. Overall, great matchup. You do need one to two healing items, and I recommend an x Sp. Atk to speed things up.

- Haxorus (48): use taunt to shut down sand attack on Scrafty. You should then set up one or two dragon dances and two swords dances. Crunch is only a 4HKO, so you have plenty of time to set up. After the setup, you rampage though everything but Bisharp, who can't do much damage back anyway. Good matchup


Caitlin
- Liepard (45): Reuniclus OHKO's Liepard with focus blast after taking a night slash. Sigilyph is outsped, so you can get one boost and barely OHKO it with night slash. After that, Caitlin sends out Gothitelle. At plus one, Liepard fails to OHKO Gothitelle, but it comes close. Musarna doesn't pose much of a threat to Liepard, so setup is possible here if you can lure it out. Overall, decent matchup.

- Simisage (44): Sigilyph is a problem because it OHKO's Simisage, though it does take heavy damage from rock slide if you have that. All of the others 2HKO with psychic, while Simisage 3HKO's all of them with shadow claw. In other words, Simisage can't kill anything before going down. It can't set up anywhere either. bad matchup.

- Crustle (45): Crustle OHKO's everything with its STABs after a shell smash. Great matchup

- Vanilluxe (47): Reuniclus OHKO's it with focus blast, so that's a no go. Sigilyph is OHKO'd by ice beam. Gothitelle can be memed on by mirror coat, but this is a bit inconsistent thanks to calm mind. I tested it twice, and Goth used calm mind just once before using psychic, which resulted in her own demise. You also have the option of light screen to make things easier for your teammates. Overall, pretty good matchup.

- Haxorus (48): with just one swords dance, Haxorus runs through Caitlins entire team. Great matchup.


Marshal

- Liepard (46): gg

- Simisage (44): because the AI is stupid, Troh only uses either stone edge or buldoze. So, setting up is actually possible here, but you do need some potions. Using an x def. is adviced here, because all of Marshals pokemon will outspeed after a couple of bulldozes. I also recommend using a sitrus berry as item to easy the setup, but also because acrobatics is the optimal attacking move so you need to not have an item. After three work ups, you can start to attack, healing whenever necessary. Overall, Simisage can sweep but it is not effecient. Without setup it is wholly uninpressive, though you have a chance to OHKO Mienshao with acrobatics even without setup.

- Crustle (45): aerial ace is not strong enough to OHKO Throh and Conkeldurr, even after a shell smash. Sawk survives thanks to sturdy. All three of these retaliate with stone edge, which does heavy damage. Crustle does have a chance against Mienshao, but you might need the expert belt. Overall, poor matchup.

- Vanilluxe (47): again, the AI doesn't realise that storm through has a 100% crit chance. Because of this, Vanilluxe can actually set up three acid armours, after which it takes minimal damage even from SE hits. The only problem is that three of Marshals pokemon have stone edge, which can kill Vanilluxe if it crits. That said, Vanilluxe is pretty bulky, so it can actually live a non-STAB crit stone edge at full health. The matchup is not really good or bad, just risky.

- Haxorus (48): Once again, Haxorus runs through the entire team with just one swords dance. It even memes on sturdy Sawk with mold breaker. Great matchup.
 
Excuse the double post, but since I just finished my run I thought I might as well finish my final thoughts on the pokemon I used.

N
- Liepard (47): useless. Deals no damage at all

- Simisage (46): It beats Carracosta, and it can put some damage on Zoroark with brick break. Vanilluxe and Klinklang are so bulky that even the SE brick break doesn't do much damage to them. Below average matchup

- Crustle (45): Crustle is actually quite good here. It OHKO's Vanilluxe, Zoroark and Archeops after a shell smash. Carracosta and Klingklang counter it though. It's not great against Zekrom, but I can image it can put heavy damage on Reshirem in white. Overall, pretty good for the final boss.

- Vanilluxe (47): in black, it can set up acid armour on Zekrom. However, Zoroark doesn't care about this and will deal heavy damage with flamethrower, so whatch out for that. Vanilluxe OHKO's Archeops with ice beam, but you do need to be set up beforehand. Carracosta can also be challenged with some boosts. Klinklang counters it, and the fight against the opposing Vanilluxe mostly depends on which one is faster. Overall, pretty good matchup

- Haxorus (48): my boy Haxorus swept it again. Zekrom can't touch it, so you're free to sweep. You need one dragon dance and one swords dance to sweep reliably.


Ghetsis
- Liepard (47): Ghetsis leads with Cofagrigus, just like Shauntal, so I was very hopeful that Liepard could be good here. Sure enough, it can setup on and beat Cofagrigus. However, Hydreigon came out immediately and outsped and OHKO'd Liepard. It can't catch a break, huh. Bad matchup, but it beats Cofagrigus at least.

- Simisage (46): It beats Seismitoad easily, and it puts heavy damage on Bisharp. It can't do much more though, since it can't set up reliably anywhere. Maybe with substitute, it can set up on Cofagrigus, but that's just speculation on my part because I don't have substitute. Bad matchup.

- Crustle (46): the only thing it can do here is x-scissor Hydreigon. This barely 2HKO's, so if you're really worried about Hydreigon, you can beat it with Crustle if you use a death fodder pokemon and a max revive. Other than that, it's really bad because nothing is weak to either of its STAB moves.

- Vanilluxe (47): It's bad. Hydreigon is the only pokemon that is weak to ice, but it OHKO's so it doesn't matter. Everything else either resists ice, or is bulky enough to escape the 2HKO. Eelektross is the only pokemon that Vanilluxe might be able to beat head on. Cofagrigus too possibly, but you need sub or taunt to get around the toxic protect spam. Overall, poor matchup.

- Haxorus (49): surprise surprise, it sweeps Ghetsis too. It literally swept all major fights as a Haxorus. Great matchup.


Final verdict

Liepard -> E tier, though I can see route 5 Liepard in D tbf

Pros: good availability and early evolution, good typing (especially for the E4), good speed, some decent mid-game matchups
Cons: major movepool problems throughout the entire game (no STAB, no coverage, no utility, just nothing), absolute garbage as Purloin counteracting the early availability, very weak (terrible route sweeper), abysmal bulk makes setup hard

It's really bad. The purrloin stage is dreadful, and there is no payoff when it evolves because it doesn't get a half decent STAB until the E4. I do think that the route 5 Liepard might deserve D tier, because Liepard is still quite decent in the mid-game matchups for how little relative effort it takes to catch and use one. The early Purrloin is definitely not worth it though.

Simisage -> B tier

Pros: early evolution, extemely dominant mid-game, phenominal coverage, good offensive stats, generally good matchup
Cons: meh as a Pansage, mediocre typing, falls off a bit at the E4.

Simisage is a really straightforward, kinda boring, offensive pokemon. It's just good, but it doesn't do anything very special either. I think it can chill next to Simisear in B tier for it's reliability.

Crustle -> B tier

Pros: great STAB combination, good movepool, shell smash +sturdy is a great combination, good matchups
Cons: modest attack stat (often misses important OHKO's after a boost), slow without boosts.

Crustle is a great setup sweeper, and it comes decently early as well, but I think it's not powerful enough to warrant A tier. I think B is perfect for it.

Vanilluxe -> C tier

Pros: balanced stats, STAB ice beam, decent matchups, acid armour is a decent niche
Cons: mediocre typing, very limited movepool, late evolution

Its pretty good I think, but it only evolves at the E4, which is a huge drawback. It's not like it easily destroys the E4 to compensate either. That's why I think it fits in C tier.

Haxorus -> B tier

Pros: insane attack stat, double dance in level up move-pool, good coverage (though it really doesn't need it tbh), sweeps the entire E4 and N and Ghetsis as well.
Cons: requires a backtrack to catch, mediocre matchups before fully evolving, takes a lot of effort to fully evolve.

Similar to Vanilluxe, it evolves just before the E4. Unlike Vanilluxe though, it is completely unstoppable when it does evolve to compensate. Still, it's not around for most of the game so I don't think it can be any higher than B tier.
 
Excuse the double post, but since I just finished my run I thought I might as well finish my final thoughts on the pokemon I used.

N
- Liepard (47): useless. Deals no damage at all

- Simisage (46): It beats Carracosta, and it can put some damage on Zoroark with brick break. Vanilluxe and Klinklang are so bulky that even the SE brick break doesn't do much damage to them. Below average matchup

- Crustle (45): Crustle is actually quite good here. It OHKO's Vanilluxe, Zoroark and Archeops after a shell smash. Carracosta and Klingklang counter it though. It's not great against Zekrom, but I can image it can put heavy damage on Reshirem in white. Overall, pretty good for the final boss.

- Vanilluxe (47): in black, it can set up acid armour on Zekrom. However, Zoroark doesn't care about this and will deal heavy damage with flamethrower, so whatch out for that. Vanilluxe OHKO's Archeops with ice beam, but you do need to be set up beforehand. Carracosta can also be challenged with some boosts. Klinklang counters it, and the fight against the opposing Vanilluxe mostly depends on which one is faster. Overall, pretty good matchup

- Haxorus (48): my boy Haxorus swept it again. Zekrom can't touch it, so you're free to sweep. You need one dragon dance and one swords dance to sweep reliably.


Ghetsis
- Liepard (47): Ghetsis leads with Cofagrigus, just like Shauntal, so I was very hopeful that Liepard could be good here. Sure enough, it can setup on and beat Cofagrigus. However, Hydreigon came out immediately and outsped and OHKO'd Liepard. It can't catch a break, huh. Bad matchup, but it beats Cofagrigus at least.

- Simisage (46): It beats Seismitoad easily, and it puts heavy damage on Bisharp. It can't do much more though, since it can't set up reliably anywhere. Maybe with substitute, it can set up on Cofagrigus, but that's just speculation on my part because I don't have substitute. Bad matchup.

- Crustle (46): the only thing it can do here is x-scissor Hydreigon. This barely 2HKO's, so if you're really worried about Hydreigon, you can beat it with Crustle if you use a death fodder pokemon and a max revive. Other than that, it's really bad because nothing is weak to either of its STAB moves.

- Vanilluxe (47): It's bad. Hydreigon is the only pokemon that is weak to ice, but it OHKO's so it doesn't matter. Everything else either resists ice, or is bulky enough to escape the 2HKO. Eelektross is the only pokemon that Vanilluxe might be able to beat head on. Cofagrigus too possibly, but you need sub or taunt to get around the toxic protect spam. Overall, poor matchup.

- Haxorus (49): surprise surprise, it sweeps Ghetsis too. It literally swept all major fights as a Haxorus. Great matchup.


Final verdict

Liepard -> E tier, though I can see route 5 Liepard in D tbf

Pros: good availability and early evolution, good typing (especially for the E4), good speed, some decent mid-game matchups
Cons: major movepool problems throughout the entire game (no STAB, no coverage, no utility, just nothing), absolute garbage as Purloin counteracting the early availability, very weak (terrible route sweeper), abysmal bulk makes setup hard

It's really bad. The purrloin stage is dreadful, and there is no payoff when it evolves because it doesn't get a half decent STAB until the E4. I do think that the route 5 Liepard might deserve D tier, because Liepard is still quite decent in the mid-game matchups for how little relative effort it takes to catch and use one. The early Purrloin is definitely not worth it though.

Simisage -> B tier

Pros: early evolution, extemely dominant mid-game, phenominal coverage, good offensive stats, generally good matchup
Cons: meh as a Pansage, mediocre typing, falls off a bit at the E4.

Simisage is a really straightforward, kinda boring, offensive pokemon. It's just good, but it doesn't do anything very special either. I think it can chill next to Simisear in B tier for it's reliability.

Crustle -> B tier

Pros: great STAB combination, good movepool, shell smash +sturdy is a great combination, good matchups
Cons: modest attack stat (often misses important OHKO's after a boost), slow without boosts.

Crustle is a great setup sweeper, and it comes decently early as well, but I think it's not powerful enough to warrant A tier. I think B is perfect for it.

Vanilluxe -> C tier

Pros: balanced stats, STAB ice beam, decent matchups, acid armour is a decent niche
Cons: mediocre typing, very limited movepool, late evolution

Its pretty good I think, but it only evolves at the E4, which is a huge drawback. It's not like it easily destroys the E4 to compensate either. That's why I think it fits in C tier.

Haxorus -> B tier

Pros: insane attack stat, double dance in level up move-pool, good coverage (though it really doesn't need it tbh), sweeps the entire E4 and N and Ghetsis as well.
Cons: requires a backtrack to catch, mediocre matchups before fully evolving, takes a lot of effort to fully evolve.

Similar to Vanilluxe, it evolves just before the E4. Unlike Vanilluxe though, it is completely unstoppable when it does evolve to compensate. Still, it's not around for most of the game so I don't think it can be any higher than B tier.
Wanted to say I appreciate your dedicated info in your write-ups. I pretty much agree with all of these.

Liepard surprises me a little with how well it did. But if we tier Liepard based on Route 5, should we tier Yamask differently because you can catch an evolved Cofagrigus post-Dragonspiral ready with the Shadow Ball TM immediately available? In other words, I think consistency regarding the earliest we can get a mon is important, though I can deal with Liepard sitting in D tier as an exception.

Simisage seems surprisingly viable. I can deal with it in B, as looking back at a few of those midgame matchups it does seem pretty good. It reminds me of Leavanny a little, which I may test (I’m curious if its matchups really are as unworkable as they seem on paper, as aside from type it is very similar to the other physical Grasses like Deerling, just without coverage and SD to its name).

My question is: will the monkeys being available in Pinwheel (rustling 10% IIRC) if you don’t get the one based on starter change their tiering? I don’t think so, because aside from some slight rival help the later acquisition just means less of an “okay” period. What do you guys think?

Everything else seems to check out.

__

One thing I forgot from a while back was Solosis. IIRC, I remember thinking it was really good when I tested it, and others highly praising it (It’s in B currently). It seems less like a traditional sweeper and more like a mon that handles a couple of threats per team endgame. I find it a little hard to place because it’s at odds with the other high tiers who have the Speed; its slow compatriots in A would be Gigalith and Conkeldurr, both of which come earlier, evolve earlier and have equal if not better matchups. I’m curious what you guys think; are the slow Speed, mostly neutral though still good matchups and limited moves early on enough to keep from A? I can see it in either but I wouldn’t mind some repeated thoughts on it (still on phone so I would have to dig to find old thoughts on it).

Might also test Psybeam Musharna down the line. Psychic STAB isn’t really needed outside of Marshall endgame. Though I think someone tested it awhile back and it fell flat endgame anyway, so not sure how it’d fare.

Edit: Started a new run. Have a Hardy Oshawott with great IVs save 0-7 Special Attack. Might just use Razor Shell because of this; regardless of how it performs I feel it’ll still be A rank (easily the most consistent starter, easily one of the best waters, and even its kinda shallow movepool doesn’t really hold it back).
Also settled on a Timid Munna. Had a Mild one but it had pretty dismal IVs. I’m gonna evolve into Musharna later in the 30s because I learned it is one of only two Psychics (the other being Beheeyem) to get Calm Mind naturally. Will likely pick up Sawk and Roggenrola too.
 
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Apologies for dying off an not completing my test run. Around the time that I last posted, I tried to get it done but some important stuff kept me from the game and I guess a lack of motivation. I'll be making my final post on this run in the coming days. Now I do have a question in regards to Skyla. In my last post I had went and evolved Tirtouga and Klink. My reasoning was that they would evolve pretty much right after anyway (and in Klink's case, stat increases) and I had fought all the route trainers up to that point causing them to evolve. Is this acceptable or should I go ahead and redo the testing for them?
 
Apologies for dying off an not completing my test run. Around the time that I last posted, I tried to get it done but some important stuff kept me from the game and I guess a lack of motivation. I'll be making my final post on this run in the coming days. Now I do have a question in regards to Skyla. In my last post I had went and evolved Tirtouga and Klink. My reasoning was that they would evolve pretty much right after anyway (and in Klink's case, stat increases) and I had fought all the route trainers up to that point causing them to evolve. Is this acceptable or should I go ahead and redo the testing for them?
I don't know if it affects much, though I'd say it's probably better to redo the test without having evolved them just to be safe.
 
Lenora time. Everyone is 18 save Roggenrola at 20.
Munna: Risky. Despite Bite, you can usually get a Yawn off on Herdier because the Ai seems uninterested in using Bite. You can very rarely live a Take Down from Herdier at -1 Defense from full health (it’s a range, my Munna has between 0-9 in a Defense IV and a 18-27 HP IV for reference). You 3HKO Herdier with Psybeam. In I believe 6 attempts, 4 of the first turn moves were Leer, 2 were Take Down. Take Down does about 2/3 HP without debuffs. Given Take Down is more powerful than Bite thanks to STAB, I’d say you can at least Yawn Herdier barring first turn crit Take Down (though I did have one attempt where I beat Herdier due to two Leer uses in a row).
Watchog is much the same if it doesn’t go for turn one Retaliate. My Munna lived Crunch consistently in red HP (remember, 2 levels lower than it) and Psybeam hit to just to the left of the gender icon on Watchog’s HP, so i’d imagine it’d be a shaky 4HKO.
Verdict: You can get a Yawn off on either mon for team support.

Dewott: Assuming you use fodder for Intimidate you should cleanly 2HKO Herdier with Mystic Water Razor Shell. My Oshawott has a 24-31 Attack IV, but given I’m only level 18 I’d wager most Dewott can do this fine (Herdier does a little over half with Take Down). Watchog is a little questionable. Mystic Water boosted Razor Shell with a good Attack IV does just under half. If you get the 50% Defense drop you turn it into a 2HKO. Also fun fact: Dewott lives Watchog’s boosted Retaliate and likely gets in Torrent range from it to get it down in yellow.
Verdict: Good with a little luck.

Sawk: I was lucky enough to snag a Impish one with Black Belt obtained from my first Timid Sawk (I wasn’t hunting for it, I got the Belt on my FIRST capture). With 40 Speed or higher you should outpace and OHKO both mons with Belt. Without Belt and avoiding Intimidate you OHKO Herdier but Watchog is consistently knocked into the red. Retaliate from Herdier doesn’t even 3HKO for reference. Assuming you sack something for a switch-in, and use Chesto Berries this fight should be an easy win for Sawk barring Confuse Ray hax (which I never saw it use in ANY attempt!).
Even through Intimidate, you 2HKO both with Low Sweep without Belt. Watchog seems to have 38 Speed as there seemed to be a Speed tie.
Verdict: Fantastic.

Roggenrola: Remember I am at level 20 as opposed to 18. Without Intimidate, Rock Blast beats Herdier in one turn if you score all five hits, while Headbutt is a 3HKO. Headbutt or 2 hit Rock Blast seems to be a 4HKO on Watchog, though if you boost up to max Defense beforehand they can’t really touch you, so who cares. On the second attempt it was LOADS more shaky. She got 4 crits on me before I finished off Watchog. Fun fact though: Roggenrola is so tanky a crit Take Down doesn’t even bring him to half health. Third time. Roggenrola doesn’t knock Watchog to half with 3 Rock Blast hits, do a 5 hit one doesn’t OHKO. On a run without Iron Defense with strangely good luck (Headbutt crit followed by Take Down miss, and later Hypnosis miss) I was able to get Watchog down to low health before Roggenrola fell.
Verdict: Barring insane hax like Bite flinches, bad luck with Sleep or crits, you should get by with boosting up to +2 Defense and healing once. Chesto Berry is reccomended. Without Iron Defense it is still a solid matchup. On average you should have to heal once to solo.

Now for Burgh. Everyone is 23 save Darumaka which is 22. Got Brave nature but good IVs, and wasn’t getting ones with good IVs and neutral/better natures (one Jolly one had an Attack IV of 4) so I stuck with it. Also fought every trainer in and around Castelia.

Munna: After a LOT of testing I developed a strategy holding Eviolite. Get a Guard Spec. from the house west of Narcrene. You knock Whirlipede into heal range with one Psybeam on turn 1 while he hopefully uses Pursuit which does like 14 damage. Burgh heals while you Psybeam him back into red turn 2. He heals again and you Psybeam him into low health again. Now that Burgh is out of Hyper Potions, Guard Spec before you kill; you should hopefully be around half health when you finish off Whirlipede. Dwebble does around 20 damage with Faint Attack while you 2HKO. You might have to heal once (accomplished via Moonlight or a Super Potion) but you CAN get through 2/3 mons barring crits; you only have to take hits about 5 times without 1. Leavanny is best avoided; Razor Leaf does like 20 without a crit and it seems to be 4HKOed by Psybeam. This fight is pretty variable, but even without the above strategy you should at LEAST take down one mon if you use Eviolite.
Verdict: Not a totally hopeless fight as you’d think, but rather decent for Munna; you can often kill a mon despite the disadvantage, even without Guard Spec.

Dewott: You 2HKO Whirlipede and OHKO Dwebble with Razor Shell. Avoid Leavanny, it almost knocks you to red with Razor Leaf.

Darumaka (with Amulet Coin): As long as Hustle wants you to, you OHKO Whirlipede and Leavanny. Leave Dwebble to something else; it outspeeds Darumaka and 2HKOs if you don’t have Eviolite. You seem to Speed tie with Whirlipede if you have 28 Speed. You should be okay even if you miss once; you can finish the fight in low green health if you don’t whiff Fire Punch.

Sawk (with Pecha Berry): Awkward but doable. Use Guard Spec. turn 1, as Whirlipede is very likely to use Screech or Poison Tail. Work Up twice on Whirlipede and 2HKO with Retaliate (though you can also 2HKO it with one boost). You 2HKO Leavanny with Retaliate who does like no damage back with Razor Leaf, though it does tend to String Shot turn 1 which doesn’t matter when you outspeed and OHKO Dwebble anyway at -1 Speed with Low Sweep. You can often finish this fight in green health, so it seems pretty solid.

Roggenrola: Good with Eviolite. Guard Spec. and Iron Defense to +6. You should kill Leavanny with a Smack Down + 3 hits of Rock Blast if you get good ranges. Since you are at max Defense, the Ai prioritizes Struggle Bug over Razor Leaf. You 2HKO Dwebble with Smack Down but watch out for Sand-Attack. I was in red health after healing once when I won. At worst, you should only have to heal twice, but this doesn’t go by as quickly as Lenora.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Hello, after a really really long break, I have finally found motivation to play BW again for testing purposes. I have decided to make a run with all current and former S ranks (minus Sawk which I already tested), thus my team will consist of Drilbur, Archen, Darumaka and Scraggy (to determine whenever they are S rank worthy or no, and which ones must be there). Following the new policy which I saw about being 2 levels over the boss trainer, I am gonna try to maintain this for my tests where applicable. In Lenora's fight, in particular, I had a level 20 Drilbur, which I achieved by KOing every single trainer from the moment I caught it (didn't take much time to catch it).

Lenora: I had a moveset of Rock Smash/Metal Claw/Mud-Slap/Dig, of which only Dig and Mud-Slap were relevant. By using a sack for Herdier's intimidate, you are able achieve a 2HKO on Herdier with Dig. My Drilbur was able to survive a Take Down from it, which gives it a chance to finish it off (note that if you use a sack, Herdier will take some recoil damage and, after a Dig, Herdier will KO itself with Take Down recoil when striking Drilbur). Drilbur's Speed was around 36 with it being a benefitted nature (+Spe -Def). I later swapped out Drilbur to heal it due to it having taken damage. Watchog was kind of a lottery; the only hope to beat it with Drilbur is to spam Mud-Slap till it misses constantly. Unboosted Retaliate is a clear 2HKO on Drilbur and Drilbur is also outsped. Luckily, Dig is a 2HKO as well, so should Watchog miss once a Retaliate or Crunch while Drilbur is on the surface, you are practically winning if you are at full health (such as healing since I had to heal a little bit in my case). Also, if you equip with one of the Chesto Berries, it going for Hypnosis is also going to give you a slight advantage.

conclusion: Drilbur can beat this but with sacks, items and a little bit luck. At the very least Herdier is a guaranteed win with a sack.

VS BURGH:<br />
<br />
Drilbur: Level 25 (result of Team Plasma, Pinwheel Forest, Burgh's trainers and Lenora's battle). Drilbur was equipped with an Eviolite here in order to have an easier time surviving attacks. Its Dig is a 2HKO on Whirlipede and even then Whirlipede doesn't have ways to hit Drilbur hardly, it can just poison it at most. Dwebble is 2HKOed by Metal Claw and also similarly doesn't threaten Drilbur in any way. Leavanny is a beast though, my Drilbur outsped but it didn't do much damage to it. If you are keeping Mud-Slap, you can try to hax your way through, but I personally forgot it for Hone Claws.

conclusion: matchup is decent, until Leavanny.

Scraggy: Level 23 (result of Battle Company). With Eviolite, Scraggy doesn't take much from Whirlipede's Poison Tail even at -2. 3 Faint Attacks put it at red HP, where Burgh will heal it and deal half of its damage with Payback, due to going second. Then you just hit 2 more Faint Attacks and KO it. You might need to heal once though and you need to pray PTail doesn't crit you. Leavanny 2HKOes if Razor Leaf lands a crit, thus with some healing, you might be able to pull it off. It can also rely on cheap Swagger strategies, it helps a lot if confusions hit (remember that confusion chance is 50% this gen). Faint Attack should be around a 4HKO from full. Dwebble is 3HKOed by Brick Break and it doesn't deal much in return.

conclusion: With some luck and some healing items, the matchup is also pretty decent.

Darumaka: level 23 (result of Route 4). Fire Punch is an OHKO on both Whirlipede and Leavanny, and they do not threaten it in return. Dwebble is 2HKOed and its Smack Down is only a 3HKO with Eviolite, thus a miss while in green HP range isn't fatal at all and Hustle only helps here practically (thus you can heal if needed).

conclusion: Amazing matchup overall

I just want to ask DrumstickGaming what is the verdict on going through Desert Resort at this point of the game? The location is part of the story, but just at the wrong time. There are trainers there thus I could potentially grind with them, but since it is technically side-tracking at this point of the game, it might not be considered for an optimal run, but I wanna hear what you have to say.

Apologies for dying off an not completing my test run. Around the time that I last posted, I tried to get it done but some important stuff kept me from the game and I guess a lack of motivation. I'll be making my final post on this run in the coming days. Now I do have a question in regards to Skyla. In my last post I had went and evolved Tirtouga and Klink. My reasoning was that they would evolve pretty much right after anyway (and in Klink's case, stat increases) and I had fought all the route trainers up to that point causing them to evolve. Is this acceptable or should I go ahead and redo the testing for them?
If we go by the "2 levels above boss' ace" policy, your Tirtouga should be fine, but the Klink wouldn't be but that would be kind of pedantic and not pedantic in the same time. I think compromising and making a run with both options should be good, especially since we can note their performances when we reach writeup phases.
 
I just want to ask DrumstickGaming what is the verdict on going through Desert Resort at this point of the game? The location is part of the story, but just at the wrong time. There are trainers there thus I could potentially grind with them, but since it is technically side-tracking at this point of the game, it might not be considered for an optimal run, but I wanna hear what you have to say.
Desert Resort is perfectly fine for training; I don’t really care if you side-track to grind on them. Elesa is arguably one if not THE hardest fight in the game save for Marshall, so I’m willing to be lenient here. Efficiency in my opinion means less here when Elesa only has TWO optimal counters (Drilbur at level 29 with Rock Slide, or Palpitoad at level 28 with Muddy Water). Rock Tomb is awful and misses as much as Darumaka does, plus Volt Switch kinda screws up Speed drops.

Conversely, I don’t think we should make TOO big a deal about gyms six and seven, and to a lesser extent eight. If you have even a remotely competent team with a type advantage they can’t counter you. Drayden falls less into this as despite being easy, you only have a handful of options to hit him super-effectively. From my experience, I’m typically a couple levels higher than 6, about 3 higher than Brycen, and a few for 8. I’m trying to curb this for this playthrough, and it seems to be working. Even a bigger party matches the bosses if you go out of your way to fight trainers. Because of this, I might actually test a sixth mon this time; if I do it will likely be Ferroseed.

As for Klink vs. Klang, well, Skyla can’t touch either, but do remember 55/45 offenses as Klink, and most things have evolved by then. I mean, we can compare this to Beheeyem for Brycen, or level 25 evos for Burgh. Efficiency is going to be different for different people. At the end of the day, as long as you give detailed posts that’s what I care about more; while you shouldn’t be too overleveled or underleveled, you should be saying how the mon preforms overall without consistent outliers in levels, which I believe this thread is doing well. 2 max works generally, but I considered 3 before stating the rule at 2.

Also Hustle counter:
3 misses pre capture between two wild ones, with misses post capture being I believe about 7.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Logs #2:

Archen: level 28 (result of routes near Nimbasa and some Gym trainers). If Eviolite is equipped, Archen can survive a Volt Switch from Emolga and put in range a next Emolga (Defeatist Rock Tomb is 2HKO). Thus you can beat one Emolga without item support. Zebstrika is a loss here

conclusion: matchup is wishi-washy, at least it's not a deadweight

Scraggy: level 27 (result of Desert Resort). With Eviolite, Scraggy takes acceptable amount of damage from the Emolgas. Due to being slower than them, it can abuse Payback and 2HKO them. However, keep in mind the boost isn't applied for Volt Switch. You might need a healing item in case you aren't able to KO both of them fast enough. Zebstrika is same situation, 2HKOed by Payback due to being faster and doesn't deal notable damage. Just be careful if you are paralyzed

also note that my Scraggy doesn't have Moxie sadly, but Shed Skin's got its own merits, I suppose.

conclusion: Matchup is surprisingly decent

Darumaka: level 29 (result of Desert Resort, N, and some Route 16 trainers). Thrash is an OHKO on the Emolgas and a 2HKO on Zebstrika. If you are able to trigger Static on Darumaka, you are able to OHKO Zebstrika with Facade. With Eviolite, the damage Darumaka takes is acceptable and perfectly manageable. Hustle misses are only fatal if Darumaka is in range, thus if it's healthy enough, misses aren't really bad.

conclusion: Also really decent

Drilbur: level 29 (result of Desert Route, post-Burgh Route 4 and some Route 16 trainers). Rock Slide is an OHKO with favorable rolls, with unfavorable rolls it's a 2HKO on Emolgas. Zebstrika is OHKOed by a Dig. Similar to the cases above, Eviolite makes the damage it takes manageable and nothing to really worry about. You will need at most one healing item in case you either miss Rock Slides or get unfavorable rolls (both of which are solved if you just use Hone Claws once but I didn't use it myself).

conclusion: decent matchup.


Excadrill: level 33 (achieved with some Cold Storage trainers, Charles, and Clay's trainers). I held up a bit Drilbur's evolution to get Earthquake earlier. Earthquake outspeeds and OHKOes everything on Clay's team. I made things even funnier and gave it Soft Sand to hold. I am pretty sure it would be doing as great if it were a level 31 one and used Dig instead of Earthquake, esp with Soft Sand, but this is only theoritical.

conclusion: Exca too op, plz nerf

Darumaka: level 31 (Cold Storage, Charles, some trainers from Route 6 (I think 6? The one for Chargestone Cave). Krokorok is annoying due to Swagger, so here it's a 50/50; if you manage to hit with Thrash, you are killing it. Palpitoad is OHKOed by a +2 Thrash as well and seems to speedtie my Darumaka (+Spe 48). Unboosted Thrash is almost an OHKO and leaves it with very few HP. Exca OHKOes Darumaka

conclusion: Wishy-washi, it's really luck dependant and doesn't even win it all.

Archen: level 31 (Cold Storage, Charles, Some trainers from Route to Chargestone Cave). My Archen's Acrobatics OHKOed both Krokorok and Palpitoad with Acrobatics. Exca outsped and OHKOed with Rock Slide.

conclusion: Rather good, it would have been better if it didn't insta die to Exca

Scraggy: level 31 (same as the above), Scraggy must make it through Krokorok's Swagger. However, should it do it, it will OHKO it with +2 Brick Break. +2 HJK OHKOes Palpitoad, while BB almost does it but doesn't. Palpitoad outspeeds as well. Exca is OHKOed by +2 BB. None of them deal threatening damage due to Eviolite.

conclusion: decent, with little bit luck involed though
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Hi, while I did say I am gonna test former and current S ranks (minus Sawk), I decided to add a fifth member to my team as I needed something to beat the mandatory trainers and I was gonna overlevel. I happened to catch a Tynamo in the basement of Chargestone Cave (I am glad I decided to catch it) so I decided to also test it in my run to see if it's truly E rank.


Archeops: level 37 (Chargestone Cave, some trainers from inside and outside Celesteal Tower (all with Lucky Egg)). Itemless Acrobatics outsped and OHKOed everything bar Unfezant, which somehowly was 2HKOed. I'd imagine Archen performs decently as well, only not being able to beat Swanna for obvious reasons.

conclusion: matchup is amazing

Scraggy: level 37 (Clay, Chargestone Cave + N, some trainers from inside and outside Celestial Tower (all with Lucky Egg minus Clay)). Scraggy beats Swoobat if it goes for Amnesia first turn, as Acrobatics is a 2HKO with Eviolite. Swoobat also outspeeds. Swanna can only be beaten if you get lucky with Swagger, otherwise not even HJK deals notable damage. Air Slash barely 3HKOes Eviolite Scraggy and in return, Scraggy 2HKOes with HJK. As long as Air Slash doesn't flinch and HJK doesn't miss, Scraggy wins this.

conclusion: matchup is okay-ish, on places it requires some luck.

Darmanitan: level 37 (Chargestone Cave, some trainers from inside and outside Celestial Tower (Lucky Egg)). Darm not only wins this flawlessly, but there are 2 ways you can do it. The first one is setting a Belly Drum (since you outspeed everything on Skyla's team) and just click Fire Punch and enjoy (Swoobat will mostly try to set up an Amnesia). The other is just click Flare Blitz. Flare Blitz OHKOes Swoobat and Unfezant unboosted, while it also puts Swanna in the red HP range. Swanna tries to set up an Aqua Ring on the first turn, generally. Fire Punch is a 2HKO on both Swanna and Unfezant. So yes, Darm has multiple ways of beating this. Note that Darm was holding Charcoal as item, obtainable at Nacrene for saying you picked Tepig as starter.

conclusion: The fact it beat Skyla in 2 different ways speaks something for itself, eh?

Exca: Level 37 (same as above). Swoobat for some reason goes for Heart Stamp, but it doesn't do much. You set up a Hone Claws and then spam Rock Slide. You outspeed everything bar Swoobat and you OHKO all of them, including Swoobat.

conclusion: matchup is decent, no real problems.

Tynamo: level 36 (Harleyquinns and a Hiker on the way for Twist Mountain, what was left of Celestial Tower and Skyla's trainers). Tynamo actually does a lot better with normal trainers than I though (I barely had to switch-train, only against a Gurdurr and a Stoutland), so it was pretty easy to train up this thing. I did a theoritical run with Eviolite and Tynamo barely takes damage from attacks. It can use Swoobat as a set-up fodder by spamming Charge Beam for later (and can also paralyze it so it doesn't worry you with Heart Stamp flinches). Spark is a 2HKO on it if you want a fast kill. Unfezant 3HKOes with Razor Wind (without including crits) and if you accumulated enough CBeam boosts, you will OHKO it. Otherwise, in most cases, it should be a 2HKO. Swanna is obviously OHKOed by all Electric moves. It's better if it tries to set up Aqua Ring instead of attacking. If CBeam doesn't miss against Unfezant, you won't even need to heal this thing. Without Eviolite, you will need a few healing items, but the fight I made here showed Tynamo beating Skyla without boosts at all (2HKOed Unfezant here).

conclusion: matchup is decent if it's holding Eviolite.


Exca: level 41 (Twist Mountain + some Brycen trainers). If you set up 2 Hone Claws, you will outspeed and OHKO everything (unless Vanilluxe has used Acid Armor more than once, though Frost Breath doesn't deal much) with Metal Claw.

Eelektross: level 40 (same as above). Vanillish doesn't deal much with Frost Breath, but it does outspeed, so you might need to heal, unless your Discharge (learned via move relearner) paralyzes. Vanillish is 2HKOed (note that Eelektross is holding a Magnet). Beartic is 3HKOed and can be annoying with those Swaggers, so here it's a 50/50. Its Icicle Crash is a 3HKO and can flinch, unless it is paralyzed. Cryogonal is almost OHKOed by an unboosted Spark and Aurora Beam doesn't deal much either.

conclusion: Matchup is pretty okay-ish, minus the luck part.

Scrafty: level 39 (Twist Mountain). OHKOes Cryogonal and Vanillish with Brick Break, while Beartic is OHKOed by HJK and 2HKOed by Brick Break. Cryogonal is the only to outspeed but it doesn't cause major problems.

conclusion: Matchup is decent

Archeops: level 39(Twist Mountain). Cryo and Vanillish are outsped and OHKOed by Acrobatics. Beartic is 2HKOed and the only hope to beat it is either: AI derping, using Swagger, and hope that you are lucky enough or if it misses its Icicle Crash.

conclusion: Matchup is pretty good, if we take in account non-luck factors.

Darm: level 39 (Twist Mountain + some Brycen trainers). Outspeeds and OHKOes everything with Fire Punch. If you are worried of Beartic surviving a Fire Punch (which it has done in a previous playthrough years ago), then clic FBlitz, I suspect it will do the job even if Darm were level 35.

conclusion: The Federation of Broken Mons called, they want their Darmanitan back.


EDIT: In case anyone asks why I evolved Eelektrik immediately, the only notable move in its level up learnset is Thunderbolt, at level 44, but I think Discharge from relearner is more than enough and allows me to optimally use a more powerful Pokemon instead of delaying the evolution.

EDIT 2: Whoops I didn't realize I double posted, sorry, I forgot I had posted already previously.
 
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E tier may have been too harsh on Tynamo. At best, I can see it in C, but low encounter rate (8% on lower Chargestone), initially weak BST of 275 as Tynamo (literally weaker than Purrloin) and late arrival (though it is the same as Joltik) will potentially prevent it from being higher. Despite this, I’m eager to see your opinion on its tiering Ryota; I wouldn’t mind being surprised on its viability. I’ve used it before myself (albeit long ago).

Also, I’m going to hold off on evolving Roggenrola two levels so it gets Rock Slide in time for Elesa (it will be Gigalith by then).
 
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I think the thread has gotten a bit stale because everyone just posts what they have to say about a certain pokemon, and then Drumstick posts his opinion about that, and that´s that. There´s little actual discussion on a pokemon´s placement, except for some of the S tiers. I think that´s because most people here (myself included) only post matchup, which is a bit hard to react to unless someone plays particularly bad. So instead of doing some matchups, I´m going to make my case for three pokemon I´ve used that I think are in the wrong tier, using the 5 aspects used in write-ups for some structure.

To start of with, I want to talk about two pokemon I'm particularly adamant about.

Petilil from A to S tier
Availability:
Petilil comes in the pinwheel forest with a solid 35% encounter rate. The wild varient is only available in white, but you can get one in black as well by trading it for Cottonee. Overall, pretty early.
Typing: mono-grass is not a very spectacular typing. grass has many weaknesses, and many types resist grass STAB. However, this problem is much less prevelant in Unova compared to the earlier gens, because of the linear distribution of types. The percentage of poison, bug and flying types in particular is much lower than in all of the earlier gens, where those three types were all extremely common. So I think grass is not as bad as it looks. Additionally, for Lilligant in particular, it's grass typing rarely comes into play thanks to sleep powder and it's insane power after a couple of boosts.
Stats: Liligant has good speed and amazing special attack, making it a capable special attacker even without setup. It's bulk is not great, but adequate. Lilligant has a very balanced, solid stat spread overall. Perfect for what it needs to do.
Movepool: Liligants movepool is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it is very limited, but on the other hand, it also contains some of the most coveted moves in the game, at a good level too. The most important moves are sleep powder and quiver dance, an extremely deadly combination that lets Liligant sweep almost every fight in the game. Giga drain is an amazing STAB option, being decently powerful and also healing a significant amount, which helps Liligant set up even more quiver dances. In the late game, it gets petal dance, which is just insanely powerful. It doesn't get much more than these moves, but it also doesn't really need more moves either. The only thing it misses is coverage.
Major battles: this is where it gets fun. Other than Burgh, Liligant has no truly bad matchups, at all. It flawlessly sweeps most important fights, including the ENTIRE E4. Skyla's Swoobat can give Liligant some trouble because of unaware, and that's really the extent of Liligants bad matchups. Even compared to the the other S tiers, I think it's matchup are unriveled.

The only flaw that the Petilil line has is that it has literally no coverage. This isn't much of a problem in major fights (other than Burgh), because its insane power after a couple of boosts OHKO's even pokemon that resist grass. However, in non-major fights it's very ineffient to boost up constantly. Compared to the flaws of the other S tiers, such as defeatist for Archen, late evolution for Scraggy or mediocre early-game for Drilbur, having sub-par route cleaning ability seems like a fairly minor flaw. That's why I think Petilil has what it takes to get along with the other S tiers.


Pansear from C to B tier
Availability:
assuming you get the dreamyard one, it has amazing availability. You don't even have to catch it yourself, which saves time.
Typing: mono-fire is decent in Unova. Grass and bugs are fairly common, while water and rock types are quite rare. It has a great type matchup against against Cylan, Burgh and Brycen, and a bad one against Clay and Drayden. Pretty much every other matchup is neutral, which is not that bad. It allows Simisear to almost always contribute something because it has very little truly bad matchups.
Stats: Simisear has great speed, and good mixed offenses. It's bulk is quite bad, but still usually enough to take one neutral hit. Overall, it's all an offensive pokemon really needs.
Movepool: Simisear has seemingly unlimited coverage because of its good tm movepool. It's not uncommon for Simisear to have a super effective coverage option against any major fight, which makes it very versatile. Work up allows it to sweep well. So it has decent STAB options, a boosting move and a big list of coverage moves. All it really needs.
major battles: It actually does very well on the whole. It has a good matchup against Cylan, Burgh, Elesa, Skyla, Brycen and Clay even. E4 is so-so because it doesn't have many good type matchups, but it's not bad. Lenora is the only fight where Pansear is actually useless.

Just like the other monkeys, Simisear is a reliable offensive pokemon with amazing coverage and good stats for the job. It's main flaw is that it is awful before evolving. It evolves early though, and when it does, it's very powerful through the entire mid-game. It's matchups are good, better than Pansage's I would say. The difference between the monkeys in general is not big enough for them to be seperated too much. That's why I think Pansear should rise to B.


Now I'm going to talk about a pokemon that might be a bit more controversial, to hopefully get a discussion going.

Tepig from A to B tier
Availability:
it's a starter...
Typing: fire is decent, as has been explained in Pansears section. Fighting isn't bad either, but together with fire it has quite many weaknesses. Pignites midgame suffers from the flying weakness, and Emboars late-game suffers from the psychic weakness. The positives of the fighting type don't seem to make up for this either, as the matchup against Lenora and Grimsley are iffy at best despite the fighting type, and it's entirely redundant against Brycen. Overall, I don't think it's typing does Tepig many favours compared to the mono-fire or mono-fighting types. In general though, fire/fighting is still a good offensive typing.
Stats: Tepigs stats leave a lot to be desired for a pokemon with 528 base stat total. Its offensive stats are great, but its speed isn't. And while it has good HP, it still isn't very bulky thanks to its mediocre defenses. Pignite especially struggles a lot in the mid-game because of the combination of mediocre speed and mediocre bulk. No amount of offensive can make that combination more workable.
Movepool: Its level-up movepool is pretty bad. Early flame charge is a great STAB option early on, but quickly starts losing power. It's fighting STAB is either rock smash or arm thrust until hammer arm at level 36 (relearner), which is terrible. In the late game, it does get some halve-decent, reliable STAB options in flamethrower and brick break. Its coverage is also decent, but again, of lot of its good moves come too late to solve its bad mid-game
Major battles: I found Tepigs major battles to be underwhelming on the whole. It has good matchups against Burgh and Brycen. Almost everything else is either bad, or 'risky', to put it lightly. The mid-game mathups are especially bad, with Elesa, Clay and Skyla all carrying SE moves against Pignite. It also falls completely flat agianst the E4, where Grimsley is its only somewhat decent matchup.

I don't think Tepig is bad, but I do think it is overrated. A is a pretty high benchmark, and Tepig just has too many flaws to keep up there imo, low speed and low bp moves being especially bad flaws.
 
Pansear from C to B tier
Availability:
assuming you get the dreamyard one, it has amazing availability. You don't even have to catch it yourself, which saves time.
Typing: mono-fire is decent in Unova. Grass and bugs are fairly common, while water and rock types are quite rare. It has a great type matchup against against Cylan, Burgh and Brycen, and a bad one against Clay and Drayden. Pretty much every other matchup is neutral, which is not that bad. It allows Simisear to almost always contribute something because it has very little truly bad matchups.
Stats: Simisear has great speed, and good mixed offenses. It's bulk is quite bad, but still usually enough to take one neutral hit. Overall, it's all an offensive pokemon really needs.
Movepool: Simisear has seemingly unlimited coverage because of its good tm movepool. It's not uncommon for Simisear to have a super effective coverage option against any major fight, which makes it very versatile. Work up allows it to sweep well. So it has decent STAB options, a boosting move and a big list of coverage moves. All it really needs.
major battles: It actually does very well on the whole. It has a good matchup against Cylan, Burgh, Elesa, Skyla, Brycen and Clay even. E4 is so-so because it doesn't have many good type matchups, but it's not bad. Lenora is the only fight where Pansear is actually useless.

Just like the other monkeys, Simisear is a reliable offensive pokemon with amazing coverage and good stats for the job. It's main flaw is that it is awful before evolving. It evolves early though, and when it does, it's very powerful through the entire mid-game. It's matchups are good, better than Pansage's I would say. The difference between the monkeys in general is not big enough for them to be seperated too much. That's why I think Pansear should rise to B.
While I have not finished testing I have issues with that you have stated. Cilan actually can beat your monkey as you can't even status it with Burn. Incinerate as I have stated is paltry damage and I even struggled to KO anything post Cilan (Work Up). Cilan has Work Up and you don't. His moves will decimate you even resistance wise. (I will also add I have Perfect Special Attack IVs IIRC). Simisear actually contributes very little for me right now. If you read my posts I note it struggles to really KO anything even at +2. That isn't B tier worthy. As for Clay, just no. I messed around A LOT to get this thing working and that's even told in one of my posts. I don't remember my levels but I was either under by 1 or matching. Grass Knot does literally nothing to Palp and barely OHKOs Krok (Krokorok has Torment which is annoying and Palp is too light. Solarbeam takes time to charge and Palp can just OHKO you with Muddy Water and Excadrill just laughs at you. Out of the total fights thus far, it has been useless in Gym 1, 2, 5, and 6 (due to Amnesia and another Water type. Which is funny cause you stated they were rare to go up against).

While Simisear has great speed and good mixed offenses, the other two monkeys can already do much more than this one can out of the gates. You state that with Work Up it can sweep. It cannot. It takes mostly 2 to do so and even then it can miss those KOs. If it's a super effective hit, yeah its a KO more than likely. But neutrally, no. Coverage does not equate to a tier rise. It has to be able to reliably achieve KOs with those coverage options IMO to be worthy of a rise. In your major battle section, you fail to mention N and Ghetsis. I could continue to go on, but I rather finish my run to give my full assessment. I believe there is one other that used it and finished and one drop (which stated it should be C Tier).

If we go by the "2 levels above boss' ace" policy, your Tirtouga should be fine, but the Klink wouldn't be but that would be kind of pedantic and not pedantic in the same time. I think compromising and making a run with both options should be good, especially since we can note their performances when we reach writeup phases.
I have lost the game state for this unfortunately so I can only progress. While Theroymonning is frowned upon I can pretty much see that the results would end the same albeit it would take longer. If need be, I can simply just retest them at this point and redo another test to get the writeup. I don't want to Theroymon unless the Topic Creator explicitly says I can.

Will be continuing my run this Friday and hopefully have it finished this Saturday.
 
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(Tepig for S Tier, change my mind lol)

Ah, this is the thread I was looking for. As a long time Gen 5 fan, it pleases me to see how active the discussions have been. Aside from that, however, I have a few...rather odd questions I'd like to ask. I'm honestly not sure where I should be asking these questions, so if I should leave, just tell me. I won't get mad or anything. So, anyway, my questions all have to do with arguably the most universally hated Pokémon in all BW runs: Purrloin.

This thing...it's so universally hated for every reason that I remember at point, it had its own Z TIER on this thread. (Where did it go, by the way?) For reasons I'll elaborate on only if you're really interested (to save you all time), I've decided I was going to try my hand at a solo Route 2 Purrloin challenge run of Pokémon Black. I haven't talked much about this challenge yet, but expect to have a thread of my own posted within the week. I'll try not to keep your attention for too long, so here are the questions.

1. I've never actually tried using Purrloin ingame, so from experience, just how good- or in this case underwhelming- is the cat actually?
2. Does Purrloin have anyway to beat particular Pokémon with the ability Sturdy in a 1v1 matchup? (Burgh's Dwebble, Marshal's Sawk, etc.)
3. Where does one find an Everstone in BW? (To prevent constant evolution prompts so it can stay a Purrloin)
4. Am I getting annoying yet?
 
(Tepig for S Tier, change my mind lol)

Ah, this is the thread I was looking for. As a long time Gen 5 fan, it pleases me to see how active the discussions have been. Aside from that, however, I have a few...rather odd questions I'd like to ask. I'm honestly not sure where I should be asking these questions, so if I should leave, just tell me. I won't get mad or anything. So, anyway, my questions all have to do with arguably the most universally hated Pokémon in all BW runs: Purrloin.

This thing...it's so universally hated for every reason that I remember at point, it had its own Z TIER on this thread. (Where did it go, by the way?) For reasons I'll elaborate on only if you're really interested (to save you all time), I've decided I was going to try my hand at a solo Route 2 Purrloin challenge run of Pokémon Black. I haven't talked much about this challenge yet, but expect to have a thread of my own posted within the week. I'll try not to keep your attention for too long, so here are the questions.

1. I've never actually tried using Purrloin ingame, so from experience, just how good- or in this case underwhelming- is the cat actually?
2. Does Purrloin have anyway to beat particular Pokémon with the ability Sturdy in a 1v1 matchup? (Burgh's Dwebble, Marshal's Sawk, etc.)
3. Where does one find an Everstone in BW? (To prevent constant evolution prompts so it can stay a Purrloin)
4. Am I getting annoying yet?
1. Very underwhelming. Using one RN and has been mediocre in all of it’s matchups to Skyla. Lol stab at 43
2. No because everything with Sturdy murders our cat.
3. You need 10 unique IDs at the Castelia City center or use Thief on Roggenrola for a 50% chance to get one
4. y e s(jk)
 
1. Very underwhelming. Using one RN and has been mediocre in all of it’s matchups to Skyla. Lol stab at 43
2. No because everything with Sturdy murders our cat.
3. You need 10 unique IDs at the Castelia City center or use Thief on Roggenrola for a 50% chance to get one
4. y e s(jk)
For number 3, Everstone may randomly pop up in any of the cave dust clouds along with the type gems. (if of course stepping into the cloud doesn't result in a battle with a wild Drillbur/Excadrill)
 
Alright, let’s get back on topic. Remember, this is not a Let’s Play/solo thread. Orange Islands SQSA Thread is a better place for these questions, so please continue this discussion over there if possible. I say this not to turn people away, but because both DHR and and Codaroll have already had to pop in and say this isn’t the thread for that sort of thing, and I don’t want it derailing discussion (nothing personal bdt2002). Incidentally, Liepard is in D tier currently, though I don’t think anyone will deny it sucks.

__

Do you guys think these matchups of my team are satisfactory for Elesa? I’m playing on cart so I can’t go back once done. I only ask because she’s one of the harder to judge matchups due to Volt Switch.
Munna (29): This one’s weird, and hard to judge because the fight is entirely based around damage ranges and Volt Switch. Psybeam is a range to 2HKO Emolga, and I think might be a range to 3HKO Zebstrika. Now, her Emolga only do around 15-21 damage of your 90 HP wither physical or special moves, so you outlast them fine, but it’s so unpredictable. At the very least, you should be able to get Elesa to waste her two Hyper Potions. X Special is odd because you unfortunately still aren’t guaranteed to 2HKO Zeb who 3HKOs you with Spark. Yawn and Nightmare strats are hard to pull off thanks to Volt Switch, but they also cause close the gaps on the ranges (even using Light Screen doesn’t prompt the Ai to stop using Volt Switch).

This matchup isn’t super clear-cut, so I’ll just say you should either be able to waste her healing items or dent an Emolga. Arguably the most shaky out of my mons.

Dewott (27): Razor Shell cleanly 2HKOs Emolga. Emolga Volt Switch seems to barely be a close 3HKO with Eviolite on. However, since they have Quick Attack it doesn’t really matter. Zebstrika Spark cleanly 2HKOs you with Eviolite, so I’d imagine Volt Switch is the same. You do about 3/4 of Zebstrika’s health with Dig.

Not good but not useless either, you can at least dent a mon.

Darumaka (27): With Eviolite, Volt Switch doesn’t 3HKO you (even from Zebstrika). It’s debatable if you should setup or not, due to Static and potential Hustle misses. Note this might be due to my Brave nature and Attack IV range of 20-25, but Darumaka OHKOed both Emolga with Fire Punch without Charcoal. If you Dig on a Volt Switch to Zebstrika you OHKO it.

So the fight should go like this:

Emolga Volt Switch to Emolga which you OHKO turn 1.
Emolga Volt Switch to Zebstrika while you Dig to OHKO next turn.
You eat another Volt Switch from Emolga and kill turn 4.

Note I didn’t use Facade strats here, but they seem to be acceptable based on Ryota’s experiences.

Sawk (27): Aerial Ace is a range to 2HKO if she gets high (I think max) rolls, and Rock Tomb is iffy with accuracy. You need a lot of luck to sweep without healing; you need to land 4 Rock Tomb uses in a row and hope one Emolga goes for something like Pursuit. Zebstrika seems to 3HKO you with Spark while you OHKO with Dig (not Soft Sand boosted).

Gigalith (28): Pretty good. Rock Slide OHKOs Emolga and 2HKOs Zebstrika. Interestingly, Strength also 2HKOs all her mons, though you need to watch out for Static on Emolga. If you attach Quick Claw it gets even easier.

Another question: Should mons that counter Elesa count more than other major battle matchups? I think Palpitoad, Rock Slide Gigalith/Drilbur/Dwebble, Eviolite Gurdurr/Conkeldurr, Krokorok and to an extent Lilligant counter her, especially the first three options.

Also I moved Solosis to A based on Infernape2018’s opinions and the other positive word-of-mouth it got in the past.

And if everyone else doesn’t mind, please express your opinion on Magnus0’s nominations above. I want to stay out of it at the moment to break the stale formula of the thread; as tier leader I need to judge based on consensus rather than my own opinions (unless I’m testing a mon). I think part of the problem is we will bring up a mon, we don’t get consistent comments on it, and move onto another without properly determining its placement; I want to change this so the process can be more efficient. I think once mine and Ryota’s runs are done we should get a firm consensus on the S tiers so it’ll stop being a prevalent subject (which is my fault admittedly).

Thank you all for contributing to this thread, and your opinions are all equally valid.
 
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Alright, let’s get back on topic. Remember, this is not a Let’s Play/solo thread. Orange Islands SQSA Thread is a better place for these questions, so please continue this discussion over there if possible. I say this not to turn people away, but because both DHR and and Codaroll have already had to pop in and say this isn’t the thread for that sort of thing, and I don’t want it derailing discussion (nothing personal bdt2002). Incidentally, Liepard is in D tier currently, though I don’t think anyone will deny it sucks.

__

Do you guys think these matchups of my team are satisfactory for Elesa? I’m playing on cart so I can’t go back once done. I only ask because she’s one of the harder to judge matchups due to Volt Switch.
Munna (29): This one’s weird, and hard to judge because the fight is entirely based around damage ranges and Volt Switch. Psybeam is a range to 2HKO Emolga, and I think might be a range to 3HKO Zebstrika. Now, her Emolga only do around 15-21 damage of your 90 HP wither physical or special moves, so you outlast them fine, but it’s so unpredictable. At the very least, you should be able to get Elesa to waste her two Hyper Potions. X Special is odd because you unfortunately still aren’t guaranteed to 2HKO Zeb who 3HKOs you with Spark. Yawn and Nightmare strats are hard to pull off thanks to Volt Switch, but they also cause close the gaps on the ranges (even using Light Screen doesn’t prompt the Ai to stop using Volt Switch).

This matchup isn’t super clear-cut, so I’ll just say you should either be able to waste her healing items or dent an Emolga. Arguably the most shaky out of my mons.

Dewott (27): Razor Shell cleanly 2HKOs Emolga. Emolga Volt Switch seems to barely be a close 3HKO with Eviolite on. However, since they have Quick Attack it doesn’t really matter. Zebstrika Spark cleanly 2HKOs you with Eviolite, so I’d imagine Volt Switch is the same. You do about 3/4 of Zebstrika’s health with Dig.

Not good but not useless either, you can at least dent a mon.

Darumaka (27): With Eviolite, Volt Switch doesn’t 3HKO you (even from Zebstrika). It’s debatable if you should setup or not, due to Static and potential Hustle misses. Note this might be due to my Brave nature and Attack IV range of 20-25, but Darumaka OHKOed both Emolga with Fire Punch without Charcoal. If you Dig on a Volt Switch to Zebstrika you OHKO it.

So the fight should go like this:

Emolga Volt Switch to Emolga which you OHKO turn 1.
Emolga Volt Switch to Zebstrika while you Dig to OHKO next turn.
You eat another Volt Switch from Emolga and kill turn 4.

Note I didn’t use Facade strats here, but they seem to be acceptable based on Ryota’s experiences.

Sawk (27): Aerial Ace is a range to 2HKO if she gets high (I think max) rolls, and Rock Tomb is iffy with accuracy. You need a lot of luck to sweep without healing; you need to land 4 Rock Tomb uses in a row and hope one Emolga goes for something like Pursuit. Zebstrika seems to 3HKO you with Spark while you OHKO with Dig (not Soft Sand boosted).

Gigalith (28): Pretty good. Rock Slide OHKOs Emolga and 2HKOs Zebstrika. Interestingly, Strength also 2HKOs all her mons, though you need to watch out for Static on Emolga. If you attach Quick Claw it gets even easier.

Another question: Should mons that counter Elesa count more than other major battle matchups? I think Palpitoad, Rock Slide Gigalith/Drilbur/Dwebble, Eviolite Gurdurr/Conkeldurr, Krokorok and to an extent Lilligant counter her, especially the first three options.

Also I moved Solosis to A based on Infernape2018’s opinions and the other positive word-of-mouth it got in the past.

And if everyone else doesn’t mind, please express your opinion on Magnus0’s nominations above. I want to stay out of it at the moment to break the stale formula of the thread; as tier leader I need to judge based on consensus rather than my own opinions (unless I’m testing a mon). I think part of the problem is we will bring up a mon, we don’t get consistent comments on it, and move onto another without properly determining its placement; I want to change this so the process can be more efficient. I think once mine and Ryota’s runs are done we should get a firm consensus on the S tiers so it’ll stop being a prevalent subject (which is my fault admittedly).

Thank you all for contributing to this thread, and your opinions are all equally valid.
I don't think Lilligant is a reliable counter, since IIRC Elesa's Emolga both have Aerial Ace while her Zebstrika has Flame Charge. Granted, I can't say if that's as terrible as it sounds due to not having used Petilil in my current play through, (which I really need to get back to, I've just the E4 and N/Ghetsis to go) but I may consider using it next time. (I think I used it once in my original run of the game, but that was almost a decade ago and without efficiency in mind)

That said, I don't believe match ups against Elesa should be weighed any differently than any other major battle. Many of the Pokemon that do well against her tend to be generally good in most other major match ups, so I see little point in giving her counters more weight for their placement.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Some comments here for the raised topics:

Petilil from A to S tier
I wouldn't mind testing more effectively this mon, but I believe we should have a tester for Black (for the traded one) and one for White, because I feel like some of the hype for it comes from the traded one getting Exp. really fast and being able to outlevel every boss theoritically. I find possible that the Black one is S rank, while the other one more of A rank, but that's theorymoning more to an extent, but I do think we should make sure the hype isn't only for the Black one.

No comments on Pansear, but just looking by it, it does look rather horrible (lol Cut deals more damage than Incinerate if you theoritically have equal Attack and Spa Stat)

For Tepig, I am also willing to test it next run. Afaik Eviolite Pignite does really well against Elesa actually but my test would confirm or disconfirm this.

Note I didn’t use Facade strats here, but they seem to be acceptable based on Ryota’s experiences.
Yeah I would call them "acceptable" here, since it is possible only for when you get statused, though arguably it's the better option than Thrash as you don't get locked.

With Darumaka being brought, I do think that I would nominate Darumaka for S rank, but I have some E4 battles to test and N/Ghetsis, but so far Hustle has never really been a problem, in most cases Hustle misses aren't any fatal, with the exception of Clay. Also, Darmanitan is a game breaker indeed, it literally brought down Skyla's Swanna to red HP zone with unboosted Flare Blitz. I need to revisit the arguments for Darumaka's drop to 100% confirm or disconfirm all concerns though.

I am rather doubled for Archen, since I am wondering if it's more between A and S atm. Its performance against Shauntal was rather disappointing and in general it requires much higher item support than the other S ranks. I need to finish my run though before calling anything officially. Also it's worth mentioning you can't take advantage of Acrobatics and Lucky Egg in the same time, which is also rather offsetting (whenever I did the route trainers, I had to always either use a weaker Acrobatics or Fly as alternative). But again, I will finish my run before calling for a drop or staying on S ranks.

I want to ask what ever happened with the Minccino nom I made? I nommed it to B but never saw any arguments about staying in C. I assume it was just forgotten, but I think it would be great to reach some consensus on it. I don't mind if someone else also tests it, especally if they use it in a different way than mine.

Also, Tynamo by far is definitely not an E rank Pokemon. I am not sure about C (as a virtue of simply not having done sufficient major battles to determine its viability), it needs to do really really well agaisnt the E4 before I call it a C mon, but we will see.

Another question: Should mons that counter Elesa count more than other major battle matchups? I think Palpitoad, Rock Slide Gigalith/Drilbur/Dwebble, Eviolite Gurdurr/Conkeldurr, Krokorok and to an extent Lilligant counter her, especially the first three options.
The way it is atm is that a good matchup against the Elite Four and/or N/Ghetsis seems to be more favorable than a Gym matchup, and that's probably because not only those are end-game bosses (and de facto the strongest), but also because they have a higher amount of Pokemon (N/Ghetsis is equal to, say, 2 Elesas in terms of numbers), which is understandable as to why a Pokemon that can sweep Ghetsis is favored more than a Pokemon that sweeps Elesa or some other Gym Leader (thus a viable mon is able to beat 6 mons one after another which shows its power). I do think that E4 and N/Ghetsis reasonably weight in more than Gym matchups due to what I said.
 
Some comments here for the raised topics:



I wouldn't mind testing more effectively this mon, but I believe we should have a tester for Black (for the traded one) and one for White, because I feel like some of the hype for it comes from the traded one getting Exp. really fast and being able to outlevel every boss theoritically. I find possible that the Black one is S rank, while the other one more of A rank, but that's theorymoning more to an extent, but I do think we should make sure the hype isn't only for the Black one.

No comments on Pansear, but just looking by it, it does look rather horrible (lol Cut deals more damage than Incinerate if you theoritically have equal Attack and Spa Stat)

For Tepig, I am also willing to test it next run. Afaik Eviolite Pignite does really well against Elesa actually but my test would confirm or disconfirm this.



Yeah I would call them "acceptable" here, since it is possible only for when you get statused, though arguably it's the better option than Thrash as you don't get locked.

With Darumaka being brought, I do think that I would nominate Darumaka for S rank, but I have some E4 battles to test and N/Ghetsis, but so far Hustle has never really been a problem, in most cases Hustle misses aren't any fatal, with the exception of Clay. Also, Darmanitan is a game breaker indeed, it literally brought down Skyla's Swanna to red HP zone with unboosted Flare Blitz. I need to revisit the arguments for Darumaka's drop to 100% confirm or disconfirm all concerns though.

I am rather doubled for Archen, since I am wondering if it's more between A and S atm. Its performance against Shauntal was rather disappointing and in general it requires much higher item support than the other S ranks. I need to finish my run though before calling anything officially. Also it's worth mentioning you can't take advantage of Acrobatics and Lucky Egg in the same time, which is also rather offsetting (whenever I did the route trainers, I had to always either use a weaker Acrobatics or Fly as alternative). But again, I will finish my run before calling for a drop or staying on S ranks.

I want to ask what ever happened with the Minccino nom I made? I nommed it to B but never saw any arguments about staying in C. I assume it was just forgotten, but I think it would be great to reach some consensus on it. I don't mind if someone else also tests it, especally if they use it in a different way than mine.

Also, Tynamo by far is definitely not an E rank Pokemon. I am not sure about C (as a virtue of simply not having done sufficient major battles to determine its viability), it needs to do really really well agaisnt the E4 before I call it a C mon, but we will see.



The way it is atm is that a good matchup against the Elite Four and/or N/Ghetsis seems to be more favorable than a Gym matchup, and that's probably because not only those are end-game bosses (and de facto the strongest), but also because they have a higher amount of Pokemon (N/Ghetsis is equal to, say, 2 Elesas in terms of numbers), which is understandable as to why a Pokemon that can sweep Ghetsis is favored more than a Pokemon that sweeps Elesa or some other Gym Leader (thus a viable mon is able to beat 6 mons one after another which shows its power). I do think that E4 and N/Ghetsis reasonably weight in more than Gym matchups due to what I said.
If we are gonna base Petilil’s tier off of version stuff, that invites in if we should test Sawk and Throh in the same way, with a 5% encounter rate in rustling grass for each mon in the respective version they are found regularly (Sawk in Black, Throh in White). I addressed this on the main page, but it seemed to be a non-issue to most people. Would love more discussion on this sort of thing. More testing is needed on Petilil itself.
Opinion on Tepig seems pretty split. 2 people have nommed it for A while both Texas (a few pages back) and Magnus have supported it for B. I could honestly see it in B, but I don’t see it as the same ranking as Snivy who has disadvantages everywhere, and even in the endgame is shaky despite changing my mind on it.

Pansear I’m gonna wait for Turdterra’s opinion on before I raise it too fast.
Yeah Darumaka seems to be headed toward S tier unless endgame is lacking. It got loads of support in the past (around the early pages like IIRC page 2) and while some say A, its bonkers power seems to make up for Hustle most of the time.

Archen. Based on looking at my thoughts on it a while back, I was a little uncertain of it being in S. Yes, it dominates a lot of things and has unrivaled stats. However, it’s definitely not stellar against Elesa or Clay, and I found endgame it was just kinda there since everything there is so bulky. Despite this, a few people seemed to support in in S so it goes both ways.
I’ll go back and look for this sometime. I think someone (maybe Magnus?) said it was C at some point, but you did say B too. I can consider it for B once I comb the thread, but it’s also a Pokémon which relies on luck for optimal damage and can’t take a hit if you get bad rolls. I could still use it myself if need be (I can grind on Audino, and early pages seemed to imply Ferroseed in B was very supported).
We’ll wait and see on Tynamo.

Keep the great proactive discussion going everyone!
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
If we are gonna base Petilil’s tier off of version stuff, that invites in if we should test Sawk and Throh in the same way, with a 5% encounter rate in rustling grass for each mon in the respective version they are found regularly (Sawk in Black, Throh in White).
I would say Petillil's case is different than Throh/Sawk, because Throh/Sawk's version difference is purely encounter but otherwise they function in almost the same way as they would in their respective versions, while Petillil's viability might as well be hampered if it doesn't have the free Exp. boost which is why I suggested we could have testers for both games.

EDIT: I just finished up Drayden and the Elite Four so I am gonna just edit this post.

Okay so because it became too much to track, I am just gonna say that I trained my mons with Team Plasma quests, Route 8, Moor of Icirrus, Route 9 (along with Battle House but that didn't even level me up), Bianca, and Drayden's trainers. Idr what mons I used for stuff.



Note: I have been using the strat for using only 1 mon, in order to prevent DTail from messing up my tests.



Exca(45): If you set up Swords Dance, you OHKO everything with +2 Soft Sand Earthquake. Fraxure doesn't have anything to deal anything to Exca.



conclusion: matchup is decent



Scrafty(45): Fraxure is 2HKOed by Crunch. If it goes for DD turn one and anything other than Slash turn two, you are flawlessly beating. Druddigon is 3HKOed by Crunch and 2HKOed by HJK. The only move to worry about is Revenge, but it doesn't seem to click it very often, every other move is manageable. For Haxorus, you just HJK and then Crunch and you kill it. Unboosted DTail doesn't deal high damage.



matchup: also decent, minus the fact you are relying on HJK not missing.



Eelektross(45): Itemless Acrobatics is 2HKO on Fraxure. Assurance and Dragon Rage deal around the same damage (+1 Assurance). Druddigon is 3HKOed, but you need heal quite a bit times due to Rough Skin + Night Slash damage (though NSlash doesn't deal much). For Haxorus, you must not only spam potions like mad but also pray that Haxorus doesn't get favorable rolls with DTail, as favorable roll 2HKOed. Acrobatics is 3HKO on Haxorus if you actually end up lucky.



matchup: meh. At the very least it can beat Fraxure effortlessly.



Archeops(45): Itemless Acrobatics is an OHKO on Fraxure. Druddigon is a 2HKO but you need to consistently heal up Archeops to leave Defeatist. Haxorus is 2HKO, but the only way to beat it is either be at full health (which would be impossible if you are doing my strat) to survive a Dragon Tail, (which is a 2HKO and deals lots of damage) or pray the AI derps and goes for Dragon Dance on first turn.



matchup: slightly positive, kind of situation reliant vs Haxorus



Darm(43): I used the strat everyone knows, which is Belly Drum on Fraxure while it tries to set up a DD. +6 OHKOes Fraxure line and Flare Blitz OHKOes Druddigon (you survive after Skin damage and recoil and you outspeed everything).



matchup: positive.




After beating Drayden, I went ahead and hunted some Rare Candies (kudos to you DrumstickGaming the list was really helpful and helped me take them really fastly. If you include the one on Route 16 (which requires Cut), I think it'd be a good idea to put it in the OP as well.). I beat Route 10 and Victory Road and used every 9 Rare Candy I had. Note that the Trainers were beaten with Lucky Eggs where possible.



Exca(50): Set up a Swords Dance on Cofagrigus. If it burns, heal it. Then Earthquake outspeeds and OHKOes everything.



conclusion: matchup is decent.



Archeops(49): Acrobatics 2HKOes Cofagrigus and notably removes its Defeatist. Jellicent beats Archeops with Surf no matter what, as Acrobatics is a 2HKO and Surf is OHKO on Archeops. Chandelure is 2HKOed by Acrobatics and Archeops also survives a Shadow Ball. If you are at level 51, you are able to OHKO with Rock Slide (likely), but I didn't level it up to that level. Golurk is 2HKOed by Acrobatics and Archeops takes one Shadow Punch at full.



conclusion: Archeops performs alright here, you need to switch out and heal lots of times though.



Darmanitan(50): I did 2 scenarios. The first is setting up BDrum. If you are able to survive Cofagrigus's Shadow Ball (which you can) and heal up with Full Restore, you can OHKO Golurk and Cof with Fire Punch. Jellicent and Chandy are picked up by +6 Dig. Also, Chandy also loses to +6 Flare Blitz. If you decide to go unboosted, you are only OHKOing Cofagrigus and Golurk (despite lacking Sheer Force). Jellicent always beats this and Darm will always be worn out and be finished off by Chandy.



conclusion: If you BDRum, matchup is decent, if not, it's 50/50 for beating half the team.



Eelektross(50): Depending on rolls, Magnet Discharge (note that I have a Modest one which is why I am going for Discharge and not, say, Wild Charge from Victory Road) is either a 2HKO or 3HKO on Cofagrigus. With healing items, you beat Cof. Golurk is put on red with Grass Knot and then kills itself with a Curse. Jellicent is 2HKOed and Eelektross can take anything as long as it is healthy enough. Chandy beats this, due to 2HKOing with FBlast and Eelektross not being able to OHKO with Crunch (it 2HKOes barely) but it can paralyze it with Twave for another teammate.



conclusion: Matchup is okay-ish, it'd been better if it didn't have to heal and switch out in the same battle.



Scrafty(49): Scrafty did somehowly worse than I expected. It can beat Cofagrigus with 2 Crunches (though you gotta heal this burn if it happens), Golurk kills itself with Curse after taking a Crunch, Jellicent is also 2HKOed and doesn't deal much if Scrafty is healthy enough, and Chandy is kind of problematic, since you either hope for FBlast missing or sending in a sack to heal up Scrafty. Nonethless, Scrafty can beat Shauntal with some healing.



conclusion: rather good matchup




Scrafty(51): HJK is an OHKO on Grimsley's Scrafty, BB is a 2HKO. I outsped despite having a -Spe nature (I've got a shitty one, -Spe +Spa). Liepard is OHKOed by BB but it first strikes with Aerial Ace, Bisharp is obvious OHKO, but also strikes with Aerial Ace. Krook is 2HKOed by HJK due to Intimidate and Earthquake sometimes can 2HKO or 3HKO so you gotta be careful



conclusion: matchup is better than Shauntal



Archeops(49): Itemless Acrobatics is an OHKO on Scrafty and Liepard. Bisharp always beats this due to Dig only dealing half of its HP damage and Metal Claw activating Defeatist. Krookodile, if you sack up something for Intimidate, is 2HKOed by Acrobatics, as long as one was outside Defeatist. Its Foul Play is a 2HKO



Conclusion: Slightly positive

Eelektross(50): Itemless Acrobatics is a 2HKO on Scrafty, which can annoyingly decrease your accuracy with Sand Attack. Its Crunch is around a 3HKO. Krookodile is 2HKOed by Grass Knot and its Foul Play is also only a 3HKO. Bisharp is 2HKOed by Discharge but its Night Slash is also a 3HKO (which will become a 2HKO if it crits). Liepard is the least threatening, since its Night Slash doesn't deal much and Eelektross 2HKOes with Discharge. This fight, however, required some Full Restores to keep Eelektross alive.

conclusion: mathcup is alright, minus points for needing around 3 Full Restores and being vulnerable to accuracy drops.

Darm(50): If you set up Belly Drum, you outspeed and OHKO everything with Fire Punch. Scrafty first turn, however, hits you with the annoying Sand Attack so you might miss and lose. For the record, even with a -Defense nature, my Darm was able to take a Crunch from Scrafty even after a BD.

matchup: Almost perfect, due to Sand Attack bullshits.

Exca(50): Exca can take a Brick Break from Scrafty and set up a Swords Dance. Scrafty is OHKOed by +2 Soft Sand EQ. Everything else is OHKOed even by +1 EQ. Liepard can outspeed you but doesn't prove threatening (Fake Out + NSlash proved ineffective against Exca even after taking a BB).

matchup: excellent (decent)


Archeops(50): Acrobatics is 2HKO on Reuniclus. Archeops beats this if Reuniclus goes for Thunder and it misses. Sigilyph would be OHKOed by Rock Slide (if you have it), since Acrobatics puts it in the red zone. Archeops can survive an Ice Beam, but will be in Defeatist range. Musharna cannot be beaten as it always brings Archeops to either red zone HP with Psychic or it sets up Reflect, turning the 2HKO into a 3HKO (for Acrobatics). Gothitelle can be defeated only if it goes for Calm Mind. Should it go for something else, you are losing. Acrobatics is a 2HKO without Defeatist.

conclusion: matchup is pretty much luck reliant, 2 mons need to do something specific for Archeops to do its job properly, wheres one beats it completely.

Eelektross(50): BlackGlasses Crunch is a 2HKO on Reuniclus and Eelektross survives a Psychic. Sigilyph is OHKOed by Discharge and Eelektross survives a Psychic. Musharna is put in yellow zone after a Crunch, but it got a Defense drop so not sure if the drop made it a 2HKO. Goth is 3HKOed by Crunch and also 3HKOes with Psychic unboosted, though it's worth mentioning that my Eelektross is -Attack, which could have played some role in this.

conclusion: Requires lots of item support and switching to function properly.

Scrafty(51): BlackGlasses Crunch is a 2HKO on Reuniclus. Focus Blast is problematic but Scrafty can survive one. Sigilyph is OHKOed by a Crunch and Scrafty can take an Air Slash from full, but you are screwed if it flinches. Gothitelle is 2HKOed and outsped but Goth can't do much with Thunderbolt and screws itself if it sets up a Calm Mind. Musharna is 2HKOed and can't do much either. You will need at most 2 Full Restores for this battle, though I was able to pass by with only 1.

conclusion: matchup is half decent, a little bit luck reliant though.

Darm(50): Charcoal Flare Blitz can outspeed and OHKO everything on her team. There was one instance of Goth barely surviving one though so I think Musharna, Reuni and Goth are based on rolls. Sigilyph is also almost OHKOed by Fire Punch if you are too low on HP.

conclusion: If my assumption is correct, you are winning this pretty easily if you get favorable rolls (considering I got only one unfavorable roll, only on Gothitelle, we can assume the unfavorable ones are lower).

Exca(50): Exca barely survives a Focus Blast from Caitlin. However, should it do it, you set up SD and steamroll everything with +2 Earthquake (not Soft Sand, I had Lucky Egg to train this up a bit). Sigilyph is outsped and OHKOed by Rock Slide.

conclusion: matchup is decent.


Exca(52): Lucky Egg buffed this with 2 levels from Caitlin. Exca liberally takes a Bulldoze and sets up Swords Dance. It outspeeds at -1 Throh and Conk and OHKOes them with +2 Soft Sand EQ. Mienshao is barely OHKOed and in turn OHKOes with Jump Kick, so luck reliant. Sawk would be OHKOed by unboosted Soft Sand EQ, but there's the Sturdy meme. Exca can survive from full a non-crit Karate Chop however, but you would need to have healed it prior hand to have it at full HP at this point. Note that unboosted EQ doesn't OHKO Throh and Conk, but he will always send Conk after Throh against Exca, for some reason.

conclusion: pretty good matchup, due to Mienshao being such a meanie >:(

Eelektross(50): Acrobatics 2HKOes Throh and Eelektross is 3HKOed by Payback. Conk 2HKOes with Hammer Arm while you 2HKO with Acrobatics, so you win this only if you are at full. Sawk is 2HKOed by Acrobatics and Eelektross can survive 2 Stone Edges. Mienshao destroys this, since it takes an Acrobatics and 2HKOes with Jump Kick.

conclusion: Too item reliant to be called "good".

Darm(50): Charcoal Flare Blitz can either be an OHKO or a 2HKO depending on rolls. Sawk OHKOes with Stone Edge and there's the Sturdy meme. If you are able to chip it, FBlitz is an OHKO. Conk is 2HKOed by Flare Blitz and hits back pretty hard. Mienshao is outsped and OHKOed.

conclusion: The only time I wouldn't be amazed at Darm's brokenness.

Scrafty(51): HJK is a 3HKO on Throh, which can 2HKO with Storm Throw. Conk is 3HKOed and 2HKOes back with Hammer Arm. Mienshao is 2HKOed by HJK and OHKOes back with Jump Kick. The only thing that can be defeated is Sawk. Sawk is 2HKOed by HJK and Scrafty is 3HKOed by Karate Chop, but you are screwed if HJK misses or Chop crits.

conclusion: matchup is rather bad, at least it can beat Sawk (which is situational tbh)

Archeops(50): Everything is outsped and OHKOed by Acrobatics bar Sawk, due to Sturdy. If you chip it a bit, Acrobatics is an OHKO.

matchup: really good, if there wasn't this Sturdy Sawk that ruins runners' flawless wins.
 
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While I have not finished testing I have issues with that you have stated. Cilan actually can beat your monkey as you can't even status it with Burn. Incinerate as I have stated is paltry damage and I even struggled to KO anything post Cilan (Work Up). Cilan has Work Up and you don't. His moves will decimate you even resistance wise. (I will also add I have Perfect Special Attack IVs IIRC). Simisear actually contributes very little for me right now. If you read my posts I note it struggles to really KO anything even at +2. That isn't B tier worthy. As for Clay, just no. I messed around A LOT to get this thing working and that's even told in one of my posts. I don't remember my levels but I was either under by 1 or matching. Grass Knot does literally nothing to Palp and barely OHKOs Krok (Krokorok has Torment which is annoying and Palp is too light. Solarbeam takes time to charge and Palp can just OHKO you with Muddy Water and Excadrill just laughs at you. Out of the total fights thus far, it has been useless in Gym 1, 2, 5, and 6 (due to Amnesia and another Water type. Which is funny cause you stated they were rare to go up against).

While Simisear has great speed and good mixed offenses, the other two monkeys can already do much more than this one can out of the gates. You state that with Work Up it can sweep. It cannot. It takes mostly 2 to do so and even then it can miss those KOs. If it's a super effective hit, yeah its a KO more than likely. But neutrally, no. Coverage does not equate to a tier rise. It has to be able to reliably achieve KOs with those coverage options IMO to be worthy of a rise. In your major battle section, you fail to mention N and Ghetsis. I could continue to go on, but I rather finish my run to give my full assessment. I believe there is one other that used it and finished and one drop (which stated it should be C Tier).
I agree with you that Pansears early game is bad, but I think you are overstating how much of a problem that is. It evolves before fighting Burgh, which is still early in the game. That means that you will be using the much better Simisear for the majority of the game. It´s also not much better than Pansage in the early game, yet Pansage is in B. Other pokemon that are bad before evolving, like Axew or Litwick, are also in B because they make up for it after evolving. And Simisear definitely made up for it in my playthrough.

This is how my mid-game matchups went. They seem rather different than yours, so I think we need someone else to test Pansear sometime.

- I also agree that the matchup against Cilan is far from perfect, but calling it useless is overstating it again. Pansear can take quite some hits because it resists vine whip, so it has enough time to use leer + stratch to wittle Pansage down.
- It is bad against Lenora, I agree. It can yawn if it survives a take down, but other than that it is actually useless so fair enough.
- Simisear absolutely destroys Burgh.
- It outspeeds and OHKO's Elesa's Emolga's with rock tomb after a work up, so it can KO both of them and also put heavy damage on Zebstrika with a + 1 dig or flame burst before going down.
- My Simisear OHKO'd Krook and Palpitoad with expert belt at level 30, so I don't understand how your perfect sp. atk IV, not underleveled one didn't manage that. Excadrill definitely doesn't laugh at you, because it is outsped and it takes heavy damage from flame burst.
- You state that it's useless against Skyla because there is one water type, which seems to suggest that it can't possibly be useful by beating the two non-water types (both of which it does beat actually). Also, if amnesia is a problem to you, you're doing something wrong because you should be using rock tomb, which is an easy 2HKO on everything. You can set up two work ups against Unfezant because it's not very threatning, after which Unfezant and Swanna are both OHKO'd.
- Brycen is also utterly destroyed.

Based on this mid-game performance I would put Simisear in B. For me it did KO a lot of pokemon with its coverage options. I think we just need someone else to test Pansear, since I feel like I will never covince you, lol. If Simisear did 't work for you, that's fine too. I am curious what other people think though. I personally just don't see it in C, two tiers below Panpour.

Another question: Should mons that counter Elesa count more than other major battle matchups? I think Palpitoad, Rock Slide Gigalith/Drilbur/Dwebble, Eviolite Gurdurr/Conkeldurr, Krokorok and to an extent Lilligant counter her, especially the first three options.
I don't think it is necessary to give certain pokemon extra credit for beating Elesa. She is arguably the hardest gym leader, sure, but she is not extraordinarily hard. I think a single matchup is rarely enough to make the difference between a tier anyway. If anything, pokemon that beat Skyla or Brycen should be given less credit because like half of the pokemon in the game solo those two fights.

Some comments here for the raised topics:

I wouldn't mind testing more effectively this mon, but I believe we should have a tester for Black (for the traded one) and one for White, because I feel like some of the hype for it comes from the traded one getting Exp. really fast and being able to outlevel every boss theoritically. I find possible that the Black one is S rank, while the other one more of A rank, but that's theorymoning more to an extent, but I do think we should make sure the hype isn't only for the Black one.
I actually used a non-trade Petilil in pokemon white and it still destroyed the game. It didn't get extra exp. so it wasn't overleveled at any point in the game. So I don't think it's necessary to distinguish between the black or white Petilil, since both of them should do equally well.
 
I’m gonna test Simisear if I have the patience for another playthrough. (I’ve done I think 3 not counting my current one).

I’m gonna move on to Clay later today hopefully as nobody seemed to find my Elesa tests unusual (to recap, Daru and Sawk sweep with some luck and maybe an item, Gigalith sweeps pretty easily (might need one item), Dewott and Munna can dent but are meh).

Would anyone be willing to retest Tympole?
I can see it having a place in B (where it is now) but still have some leftover doubts from a while back (mostly due to a lack of power). While it counters Elesa well, I have a tough time seeing what else this does better that any other Water couldn’t other than availability. Granted, the other Waters aside from Oshawott and Panpour don’t have the best starts with their matchups (Ducklett is kinda weak which makes it shaky for Clay, Tirtouga has two disadvantages in a row) but I’m unsure and wouldn’t mind a new opinion. Countering Clay isn’t necessarily exclusive to Palpitoad either-any Fighting can do it and given how high ranked most Fighting types are (mostly in A/S tier) I don’t consider it unlikely for a player to use one.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Exca(52): It can beat Zekrom as it has nothing to hit Exca with. +2 Soft Sand EQ OHKOes Zoroark but you are outsped and you need to be at full (which is only possible if Zekrom missed Zen Headbutt and used Light Screen the previous turn) to survive a Focus Blast. Carracosta will always beat Exca due to Sturdy + Waterfall, which is an OHKO on Exca. Klinklang is outsped and OHKOed by unboosted EQ. Vanilluxe is 2HKOed by unboosted Metal Claw and Exca can take a Blizzard. Archeops is 2HKOed by Metal Claw and it can't do much in return.

conclusion: Matchup is pretty good, beats 2/3 with no problems.

Eelektross(51, gave it a Rare Candy from N's room): It can paralyze Zekrom and wear it down with Crunch, but Giga Impact deals quite a lot. Klinklang is 2HKOed by Discharge and can't do much in return, but can decrease its SpD with Metal Sound, which means that Vanilluxe or Zoroark can easily demolish it if you don't switch out. Zoroark is 2HKOed by Magnet Discharge but it can cause heavy damage to Eelektross with its special moves so you need lots of healing. Vanilluxe is sometimes 2HKOed or 3HKOed and the only way to beat it is to spam Full Restores until it misses a Blizzard or it runs out of PP. Carracosta is 2HKOed but its Stone Edge can also cause severe damage. Archeops 2HKOes with Stone Edge but is OHKOed by Discharge.

conclusion: Tfw when you need a healing item for almost every single mon

Archeops(51): Archeops loses to Zekrom, if that's not obvious. Zoroark can be OHKOed by Acrobatics but it depends on rolls. Luckily, it survives a Focus Blast. Vanilluxe is almost OHKOed by Rock Slide but then it OHKOes back with Blizzard. Klinklang beats this with Flash Cannon, unless it decides to Metal Sound you on the 2nd turn (since you can use Dig here). Carracosta also beats this obviously. His own Archeops is OHKOed by Rock Slide but if you miss, it can OHKO you with his Stone Edge.

conclusion: Matchup is unreliable, since by far it can always lose to something here, other than Zoroark.

Scrafty(51): HJK achieves a 3HKO from what I can tell, but Zekrom can 2HKO with Fusion Bolt and 3HKO if rolls are unfavorable. Scrafty can break Light Screen with BB if needed. Zoroark is OHKOed by HJK and eats one Focus Blast. Klinklang can be OHKOed with HJK if rolls are favorable, but you need to sack in something to heal up Scrafty as it likely will be worn down from the Focus Blast. Vanilluxe is also OHKOed by HJK and I am confident with no SpD drops it can survive a Blizzard. Archeops will OHKO you with Acrobatics so this is a lost cause. A combo of HJK and BB will 2HKO Carracosta, which doesn't deal significant damage with Waterfall.

conclusion: I would say slightly positive matchup.

Darm(50): Zekrom almost OHKOed my Darmanitan and in turn it can't do much to it, so it basically loses here. Vanilluxe and Klinklang are OHKOed by Fire Punch and are outsped. Zoroark is outsped and OHKOed by Flare Blitz. Carracosta and Archeops defeat Darmanitan for obvious reasons.

conclusion: 50/50 matchup, since it crushes one half and loses badly to the other.


Darm(51): Set up a Belly Drum on Cofagrigus, which will try to Toxic you. If it hits, you just Full Restore. After that, you OHKO Cofagrigus, Bisharp, and Bouffalant with Charcoal Fire Punch and Seismitoad with Superpower. Hydreigon beats Darmanitan, as it will generally be at half HP. If it goes for Focus Blast and misses, however, Superpower will kill it. Eelektross is OHKOed by unboosted Flare Blitz. Also, only Hydreigon outsped Darmantan, everything else was slower.

conclusion: Um this thing basically swept 5/6 of Ghetsis' team and with luck sweeps completely lol. I think "decent" is too weak to describe this matchup.

Scrafty(51): Cofagrigus is 2HKOed by Crunch and Toxic can be healed off easily. Cofagrigus has nothing else for Scrafty. Bouffalant is 3HKOed by Brick Break, but it eats a Head Charge and the recoil makes it a 2HKO. Hydreigon has a chance to OHKO Scrafty with Focus Blast, depending on rolls. Even then, HJK does not OHKO, which in most cases is fatal. Seismitoad 3HKOes with no rain with Muddy Water and outspeeds Scrafty. Scrafty 3HKOes with HJK. Thus, it loses here. Eelektross has Acrobatics and can hit Scrafty hardly. HJK is a 2HKO here if it goes for Wild Charge twice. Bisharp is outsped and OHKOed by Brick Break.

conclusion: okay-ish matchup, doesn't perform stellarly though.

Eelektross(51): Cofagrigus is 3HKOed by Discharge. It will constantly poison you, requiring many items in the process. Bouffalant is 3HKOed by Discharge and 2HKOes with Head Charge. Funnily, Seismitoad somehowly ate a Grass Knot, but its Muddy Water is barely a 3HKO. Hydreigon obviously beats this, as Eelektross' only move that could potentially hit it is Acrobatics, and even then, Dragon Pulse is a 2HKO. You can paralyze it for a teammate, however. Bisharp is 2HKOed by Discharge and can 3HKO with Night Slash, unless it crits. Eelektross, normally, wins this. His Eelektross is superior, cause his Flamethrower dealt much more than my punny Crunches or Grass Knots.

conclusion: matchup is eh.

Archeops(51): 3HKOes Cofagrigus with Acrobatics. The matchup is pretty long due to Protect and stuff. Bisharp is 2HKOed by Dig, which is possible due to Defeatist being Mummy at this point. It can barely eat a Stone Edge. Seismitoad is 2HKOed by Acrobatics but OHKOes back with Muddy Water. Hydreigon OHKOes with Surf and eats an Acrobatics. Bouffalant almost OHKOes with Wild Charge and Acrobatics is barely a 2HKO with no Defeatist. Eelektross defeats Archeops, obviously.

matchup: pretty eh

Exca(52): Cofagrigus can't touch this thing. +2 EQ OHKOes. Hydreigon outspeeds and beats this in normal conditions. You can resetup on Bisharp and OHKO everything bar Eelektross with Earthquake. Eelektross is 2HKOed by Rock Slide and Exca eats a Flamethrower (just hope you don't get a burn and miss a Rock Slide).


And now.... the noms! :O

Drilbur is a pretty obvious case, I think, and no one has ever really doubted its power so I am not gonna elaborate much. Let's just say Exca becomes a monster that kills absolutely everything in its path. There's no case from my logs where Drilbur or Exca hasn't killed at least half of the opponent's team. Only Marshal proved problematic fundamentally and even majorly dents N and Ghetsis (but not completely). If someone thinks this is for dropping, I am willing to elaborate more, but for now, I don't find it necessary. I prefer to concentrate on the more important noms.


I made sure to find the more common arguments for Darumaka and I found around 3 only, so I will start by countering all of them:

"Hustle makes it miss so much :(((" (the sad face is just for fun exaggeration)
-It could do it, but in most cases, it's not fatal. For example, against Burgh's Dwebble, you are only 3HKOed by Smack Down if you have Eviolite so the first 2 turns it is not really a big deal if you miss or no. Same deal with most of Elesa's mons, missing one doesn't mean you are losing because their damage output is manageable with Ebiolite. The only case where they are indeed problematic is against Clay, which is its last fight as Darumaka. Even then, if it hits, Darumaka bops Krokorok and Palpitoad, so it kind of contributes again.

"Darmanitan can't beat its resists to fire, such as Drayden and etc."
-That's incorrect, as shown in my logs against Drayden, Darmanitan can actually beat Drayden and anything that resists Fire moves. It can also survive quite a bit neutral hits even from half, which means that setting up Belly Drum isn't as rare as a blue moon. Don't even make mention how Darmanitan was able to bring Swanna to red HP zone with an unboosted Flare Blitz.

"Flare Blitz's recoil is just too much for the poor Darmanitan"
-In most cases, Flare Blitz isn't needed and Fire Punch does more than enough, especially if you use Belly Drum strategies, which as I mentioned earlier, are not only possible, but actually viable. If you are gonna use Flare Blitz, in most cases, it's gonna be from full to OHKO something, which will be nothing.

The only case where I don't consider Darmanitan a broken thing is against Marshal and half of N's team, but in N's case, it eats alive the other half without any problems. Due to my arguments about Hustle, it practically allows Darumaka to steamroll early game, and as Darm, well, it also steamrolls. I really can't find more words to describe its viability, other than "it destroys 95% of the game". I mean, it literally swept 5/6 of Ghetsis's team, if I have to mention that. If you want an elaborate details on each matchup, you can check my logs here, but everyone agrees it's a monster and I considered it more important to disconfirm the arguments that were used to drop it.


Tynamo proved to not be fully useless but I don't think it has place in C rank. In every major battle post-Brycen, I had to spam up shitload of Full Restores or other healing items (at least 3 per fight). Its damage output is also mediocre in later fights. However, it does have its uses in Skyla and Brycen, which is why I think D rank is perfect for Tynamo


This one might be controversial and I don't mind if it gets objections, but in my opinion, Archen is not on the same level as the other true S rank mons. Although it does great for big part of mid-game, in most major battles, esp in the E4, it requires much higher item support than the others. Most of my E4 battles were done with switching it out and healing it if it had taken any damage. Thus, Archeops isn't capable of consistently sweeping or at the very least stay on the field because you need to work around Defeatist. I did advocate in the past about Archen being S rank, but after giving it consideration, I think Archen's huge need of item support and inability to stay on the field for long makes it more of an A rank Pokemon.


This one is also rather controversial and more surprising, seeing as people are praising it a lot, but I do think we should consider also dropping this to A rank. The reason for that is similar to Archeops in that it falls off in the end-game pretty hard. Its Brick Break and Crunch fail to defeat opponents properly endgame (most of the times they end up 3HKOes if neutral, in some cases they end up as 3HKOes even if super effective). In order for Scrafty to 2HKO things in the end-game, especially the E4, N, and Ghetsis, it needs to rely on HJK, which is a double-edged sword, as one miss from it, unlike Darumaka's Hustle, is actually fatal, as everything 3HKOes it and a good chunk of end-game mons also 2HKO, and a HJK makes them an OHKO in most cases.. I also caught some posts that called Scraggy the weakest S rank, which is very likely true if it stays as S rank. But in my opinion, Scraggy, especially end-game, fails to reach the level the other true S rank mons (in my opinion) and is much more suitable for A rank, despite having SE matchup against 3/4 of the Elite Four. I don't think Moxie would help this thing stay in S rank, since, as I said, it relies on HJK for powerful hits unboosted, which means it either achieves them or dies and it's really hard to be a S rank mon with such inconsistency. Oh and before you ask, Scrafty had 14 IVs in Attack, which is almost the middle of the limit. If someone can give input on how Moxie Scraggy performs, I would not mind, but Shed Skin one does not perform at S rank level.


In my next run, I am planning on testing Tepig and Petillil as noms for them have been made. I cannot use Pansear without hacking, and I do not like the idea of trying to hack in one, I think it's better if someone else tries to test it. I am willing to use 3 more mons for my team, as to keep my team balanced in terms of level and not break the overleveled policy, so if you have requests on what you want me to test, please mention them, I am willing to test anything, no matter what. If I have vacant spots, I am probs gonna use stuff like Pawniard for fun (seeing as Tynamo was actually not an E mon, some other E mons might turn out to warrant a raise).

Thanks for reading this really really long post. I am not minding if someone objects the drops I proposed, as some might have had better luck with them, but I do think my arguments are worth considering. These tests are way more enjoyable than last time, which means that my hiatus was worth it for me at least.
 
I can test Tympole.

I want to test either Pidove or Archen as well, so let me know which one needs a test most. I originally planned to use Darumaka as well, but I think it´s better to retest Pansear because so many people have used Darumaka already. I also definitely want to test Ferroseed. For the final slot I need a special attacker, and I was thinking about Gotitha or Stunfisk. Again, let me know which one I should use

So the final team would be Pansear, Pidove/Archen, Tympole, Ferroseed and Gothita/Stunfisk. That's decent
 
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