Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

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Ah, I see. Sorry about that. I just wasn't sure where to post this. I was completely oblivious to this message as my usual Internet access source, being my tablet, is having some issues rn, and I'm just now getting on the forums for the first time in over a week through my Wii U's Internet Browser of all things.

Quite frankly, I wasn't sure where to ask my questions, as they all felt too specific to this game. Apologies in advance. (Side note, the tablet issue is also why my thread wasn't posted last week like I said it would be.)
No worries; I often am curious about where to post stuff like this myself. No hard feelings! Just don’t want the higher-ups to get mad.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
By “this,” do you mean the nomming method?
yes

For what it’s worth, both Stellar and I supported Throh in A rank based on these two posts, one of which was coincidentally the post on page 11:
I think in your case you might have been underleveled, while I did say 2 levels do not generally make big difference, I think at the E4 it does play some role. I had my Throh at level 49 and had an almost flawless win against Shauntal, only Cofagrigus generally beating it. I had it at level 51 due to Lucky Egg and Grimsley, which again, looks reasonable to do. Regardless, having summarized arguments against here exactly might be a good idea, so I know what to try to counter when I get to nom Throh to S (if it happens).

Regardless, I am abstaining from nomming for now, until I am done with N/Ghetsis. I don't doubt it will contribute majorly there. If Throh fails tremendously there, I might retract my nom, but it would be good if I have the arguments against here to compare them with my logs more easily.

Darumaka, in spite of what I said higher up about S being a formality, is the S tier with the most discussion, including a few detractors. I think a theoretical S- rank would fit both it and Drilbur well. As for testing Daru I’m not sure if it needs more because we’ve discussed it like crazy and both Ryota (and I currently) have/are testing it. Maybe a fresh opinion would help, if possible. I think while the 20-ish level grind to Darmanitan isn’t quite a babying period (in contrast to Yoshi’s post), Hustle can screw you over sometimes and neither Elesa nor Clay are watertight matchups. Drilbur on the other hand, even after it gets Dig, still doesn’t really take off until late 20s/early 30s when it gets Rock Slide and later EQ and Excadrill. Elesa could probably trump it if it had to rely on the inconsistency of Rock Tomb.
S- rank theoritically could work, but I have always felt like those "sub-tiers" create more confusion and complexity than simply deciding if it's more of an A or S rank mon. If an S rank Pokemon has visible flaws, as described in the A rank's description, then it perhaps should actually fall to A and we must just constitute if that "flaw" is a visible one or a flaw on first place (e.g. Hustle I could argue that it isn't a flaw, because of the fact it's in most cases not a fatal thing, so in reality its pros outweight the cons).

Archen is a shaky S rank. I think the endgame with it needs to be tested by at least one more person to determine if it is suited for S at all.
Whoever tests this should, specifically, watch out for how many items do they throw in and how many times do they have to switch out Archeops to heal it up so Archeops can function. That's my complain about it.

Put Tynamo in D.
yee


Also, since my game is coming to an end, I would like you guys to give me new mons to test. Pawniard, I think I am giving up on testing, because level 52 before the E4 doesn't seem reasonable. I could test Snivy if you want me to (I would also "test" Panpour because I need team members early to control my levels a bit). Remember, I am willing to test absolutely any shit mon, if needed, even Alomomola. I just need like 5 slots filled and I will gladly make logs for them.

Thanks for reading this long message. Note that everything here is purely my opinion and I do not intend to force it as a fact.
 
Honestly, this is making me wish I could join in the fun. I don't see how you guys can all find the time for this, which is why most of my tests are just hypothetical and not, well, actual tests. That being said, I would like to talk about the S Tier confusion a bit.

When it comes to top tiers, they all have different things that make them top tier. Some like RBY Nidoran-M might be there for utility and earlygame final evolution, both of which are rare in Gen 1, while others like RSE Mudkip are there simply because they have qualities that basically make them the Meta Knight of those games. In the case of Black and White, the true optimum for an S Tier, at least in my opinion, is something that A. Comes relatively early, or at the very least before its best matchups, B. doesn't get shafted by terrible evolution levels like so many Unova mons are, and C. can develop earlygame momentum that can transition to the lategame, unlike Pokemon such as Patrat or Purrloin. Another change BW has is Eviolite, which when held by unevolved mons, can make Speed significantly less important as you can just take hits and then hit back harder. With all of that in mind, provided I don't have too much concrete evidence, this is how I'd suspect many of the game's Pokemon that are currently being debated for S Tier.

S Tier: Scraggy, Petilil, Throh (in defense of...who was it again?), Sawk, Archen
A Tier: Darumaka, Panpour (someone mentioned it earlier but it kinda got lost), and more

Edit: Seriously, what's with the Litwick lol (just curious)
 
I think in your case you might have been underleveled, while I did say 2 levels do not generally make big difference, I think at the E4 it does play some role. I had my Throh at level 49 and had an almost flawless win against Shauntal, only Cofagrigus generally beating it. I had it at level 51 due to Lucky Egg and Grimsley, which again, looks reasonable to do. Regardless, having summarized arguments against here exactly might be a good idea, so I know what to try to counter when I get to nom Throh to S (if it happens).
If you look at this post my team was 48 at E4: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ier-list-discussion-mkii.3646760/post-8050088
S- rank theoritically could work, but I have always felt like those "sub-tiers" create more confusion and complexity than simply deciding if it's more of an A or S rank mon. If an S rank Pokemon has visible flaws, as described in the A rank's description, then it perhaps should actually fall to A and we must just constitute if that "flaw" is a visible one or a flaw on first place (e.g. Hustle I could argue that it isn't a flaw, because of the fact it's in most cases not a fatal thing, so in reality its pros outweight the cons).
Yeah I wasn’t super devoted to the division in all honesty, for your reasons about it being convoluted. I only suggested it to find a temporary solution to all the S tier noms. In other words, I think we’re jumping the gun a bit sometimes, which is why I suggested the nomming method above.

Even bdt2002 makes good points above despite kinda theorymonning because he looks at the precedent established by other S tiers in other lists. I realize not everyone can want to replay a game like BW1 a lot because of limited options or IRL responsibilities, and that’s okay. I appreciate the posts everyone has made to contribute to this tier list so far.

As for testing...a lot of endgame stuff hasn’t been tested. Snivy could definitely use another test. Other mons you could test include Blitzle (it’s C but I’m curious it could fall to D, because what exactly does that thing do endgame, and it’s matchups are really meh) Jellicent or Basculin (I found the latter decent but no other opinions have been given in this thread) Durant (just to see if it sweeps most of endgame to warrant C like IIRC It’s_A_Random suggested forever ago). I think the only decent early fighting type that could kinda carry you through the rest of early game which you haven’t tested is Timburr (not bashing your skill, but Gyms 2-4 would generally be difficult with Servine and Blitzle so I want to give you some leeway especially since you’ve tested so consistently). I don’t really see Conkeldurr dropping out of A though, that thing put in a ton of work for me, though it takes time to get the ball rolling.

All I see Alomomola being is a limited, worse Audino that comes too late. I mean, yeah it’s Attack is 75, but when Waterfall and Return are like your only options...

As for my own testing, I’m not sure if it will continue at a reasonable pace if I keep testing on cart which is VERY tedious compared to emulation. I will be finishing the current run hopefully soon-ish.

Speaking of which, Brycen. 2 of these tests are from a couple days ago but they should be pretty accurate (tested all the obvious good matchups today). I purposely skipped some Twist Mountain trainers so I could save them for Golett.
Musharna (41): 2456 to the next level of 42 (as a result of topping off the last level with an Audino) Who cares, it’s Brycen.

Going over how much he can damage you first; Vanillish does absolutely nothing with Mirror Shot. Beartic’s Icicle Crash does about 1/4 of your HP, but Swagger can prove a nuisance so I went back to get a Persim Berry. Without any boosts, you 3HKO Beartic with Psychic. Even with two boosts you still fail to OHKO Beartic. Three boosts with Charge Beam (to 3HKO Vanillish) is possible but improbable with Vanillish due to Mirror Shot’s 30% chance to lower accuracy and Charge Beam’s already imperfect 90% accuracy AND the only 70% chance to raise Special Attack. Alternatively, use a safer strategy and buff to +3 with Calm Mind. If you are lucky enough to have Vanillish boost up with Acid Armor alongside you (tested this method twice so it’s pretty likely), Vanillish will then spam Astonish which does less than 20 damage. As the Ai never seems to Frost Breath you are really in no danger. None of his mons threaten you at all so you shouldn’t have to heal. It’s possible but rather unlikely for Beartic and Cryogonal to survive +3 Psychic (seems to be a roll) and this is usually negated by having multiple chances to smack them with it (due to Hyper Potion use) before he can use another move. Regardless, as they can’t threaten you much I see no reason to test this matchup further; but you can boost up to +4 if you want to ensure the kills.
Samurott (40): Don’t use Revenge; Mystic Water Razor Shell/Surf is more reliable, and you don’t want to waste a moveslot for one fight anyway. Pack a Persim Berry as always. It’s worth noting Mystic Water boosted Razor Shell doesn’t seemingly even 2HKO Beartic, so you kinda need the Swagger buff. After glancing at my Special Attack of 94 compared to my Attack of 99, I decided to actually use Surf Samurott despite its terrible Special Attack IV (0-7). Either way, you tend to knock Vanillish into heal range. If Beartic decides to spam Slash all day you should be able to beat it fairly easy barring crits (oddly, it seems to favor this more than Swagger). If you get into Torrent it’s even easier. Plain old Megahorn OHKOs Cryogonal (it might set up a Reflect but then again it can’t threaten you). It’s worth noting that a Torrent boosted Aqua Jet doesn’t OHKO Cryogonal though (leaves it in yellow), and my Return (which I don’t think is max power anyway) leaves it in red. After a lot of testing, the optimal strategy for the fight is:

Kill Vanillish. Chip Beartic with Surf and hope it Swaggers you; then kill with Return (+2 Return does 3/4 of Beartic’s HP) or Megahorn. +2 Aqua Jet to OHKO Cryogonal. You can still solo without items if they don’t use Swagger but it takes longer.

Darmanitan (40): The most lopsided battle EVER. Three Fire Punches and you win. Cryogonal outspeeds but does jack. You don’t even need Charcoal (OHKO on Beartic might be due to Brave, but you have more than enough health to Flare Blitz him anyway).

Sawk (40): Beartic falls to red HP from an unboosted Brick Break. Vanillish and Cryogonal are OHKOed. Finished the first fight in green even with a crit from Beartic’s Slash. Next attempt I used Bulk Up. Even at essentially +1 Defense due to Acid Armor Vanillish can’t take a Brick Break and Beartic is OHKOed at +1 as I suspected. Cryogonal derps and tends to Reflect giving you the win. Aurora Beam does barely any damage anyway. As long as Vanillish doesn’t get a 30% accuracy drop you win, though you could also win by OHKOing it and having Persim for a safety net (I didn’t test this because I don’t think I need to).

Gigalith (40): Testing with Persim. If Vanillish uses Acid Armor, Rock Slide is a 2HKO (knocks it to red). However, if you Bulldoze on the heal turn, the chip damage and Speed debuff lets you outspeed and kill it turn 3. If Beartic uses Swagger you should OHKO with Rock Slide. Cryogonal can’t do much-a crit Aurora Beam left me in green (with a regular Aurora Beam doing 36 damage in another attempt) and I OHKOed it. Tested again with Vanillish’s Mirror Shot doing almost 30% of my HP (I OHKOed it because it didn’t buff). Beartic went for Brine which did about 34 damage. Similar to Vanillish with Acid Armor, Beartic can live a Rock Slide, so Bulldoze and then Rock Slide as Brycen heals, just like with Vanillish. Good if you don’t whiff Rock Slides (one whiff against Beartic DID cause me to lose once) and Beartic Swaggers you; in the worst case scenario you might have to heal once but it’s pretty unlikely unless his Ai goes for attacks on all three mons. You can also kill Vanillish with Bulldoze + Return, and do the same to Beartic if it uses Swagger. With the Swagger buff Gigalith can OHKO Cryogonal even if it uses Reflect with Return. In reality, you don’t even need Rock Slide if luck is on your side.
 
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I know I’m supposed to do “serious” posts as the tier leader but I HAD to post this literal weakest Attack Timid Golett that I got as my first catch.

THIS is why you check IVs, seriously. At least it had Iron Fist.

Judging off pre-conceived notions (note I’ve used Golett before) it seems like one of the better late game options to pick, though I know it probably won’t escape the dregs of D. If you do a little detouring you can get Low Sweep (or if you’re lazy TM Brick Break from Icirrus Pokémon Center), get the Rock Slide TM from Mistralton Cave, relearn Shadow Punch via Heart Scale, and TM Bulldoze on. Unevolved it may be, but that’s not bad coverage at all freshly caught. Unlike it’s cousin Krookodile who gets most of the same coverage and hits most of the same mons (aside from Fighting types) it helps that Golett actually gets EQ before postgame (Krook gets it at 54, and another competitor Sesmitoad doesn’t get it at save the TM postgame). Yeah, it’s too late to do much, but compared to what’s around it which for the most part is also D tier stuff aside from Litwick and maybe Druddigon, I think it’s better than it looks on paper even if endgame is shaky.
 
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The only reason I theorymon as much as I do is because I really don't have the time to test things like you guys do. Pokemon playthroughs are a very long term thing for me, see. I still wish to be as helpful as I can in these discussions, though. It honestly makes me feel lazy and selfish just thinking about it.

I'm looking through the Unova dex rn searching for anything that would at least be worth talking about. While I can't necessarily test anything on my own, I am able to crunch the numbers, if you will, and try and advocate for options that don't get as much love as they should imo, such as the early Route 1/2 mons, the monkey trio, Munna, Pidove, Audino, Woobat, the list goes on and on. As someone who's stayed attached to Gen 5 since childhood, I think that these underrated Pokemon should be reconsidered if possible. Top tier? Probably not. But bottom tier? Even despite limited options I wouldn't go that far. Pidove in particular is worth noting as everyone and their mother is blinded by DPP Starly bias. (Including myself lol)

Edit: I really need to stop thinking about this so much, but I can't stop thinking about the fact one of you named your Litwick after me. Question is, why? (I promise I'll stop bringing this up now)
 
The only reason I theorymon as much as I do is because I really don't have the time to test things like you guys do. Pokemon playthroughs are a very long term thing for me, see. I still wish to be as helpful as I can in these discussions, though. It honestly makes me feel lazy and selfish just thinking about it.

I'm looking through the Unova dex rn searching for anything that would at least be worth talking about. While I can't necessarily test anything on my own, I am able to crunch the numbers, if you will, and try and advocate for options that don't get as much love as they should imo, such as the early Route 1/2 mons, the monkey trio, Munna, Pidove, Audino, Woobat, the list goes on and on. As someone who's stayed attached to Gen 5 since childhood, I think that these underrated Pokemon should be reconsidered if possible. Top tier? Probably not. But bottom tier? Even despite limited options I wouldn't go that far. Pidove in particular is worth noting as everyone and their mother is blinded by DPP Starly bias. (Including myself lol)

Edit: I really need to stop thinking about this so much, but I can't stop thinking about the fact one of you named your Litwick after me. Question is, why? (I promise I'll stop bringing this up now)
I appreciate you mentioning the lesser stuff. It’s okay you can’t test, even making suggestions helps.

Munna is really weird (using Musharna atm). It tanks hits fine with Eviolite but 3HKOs everything as Munna. Yawn is a saving grace, but honestly, just go with Sigilyph or Solosis. I once thought about using Protect Yawn and Dream Eater but decided against it (Dream Eater is 41). Maybe we could test early Musharna but if I recall it still gets screwed over by endgame, likely because it lacks moves like Calm Mind and Psychic.

Pidove isn’t Starly bias, but because it’s sorely outclassed at everything it wants to do other than using Fly moderately well. It’s movepool is Special despite Unfezant having 65 Special Attack. As a Return beatstick, it’s outclassed by Stoutland. As a Flying type, it’s outclassed by stuff like Swanna (due to a dual type) and Archeops. As a physical attacker you have Darmanitan, Gigalith, the list goes on. When you’re an attacker and only have two real STAB options with almost no diversity outside of random moves like Roost (it doesn’t get U-Turn until post-game) it’s pretty bad, and it’s matchups do it no favors.

Audino IS underrated. I thought it was super unviable, and then I used it. If you play around with Work Up you get a very sturdy mon that can contribute in every boss fight, only falling off slightly at the end (where it can put in work against Shauntal and Ghetsis with Substitute). Fireburn had an inkling of D but I think C is fair for it because while it may not beat some Uber powerful mon it is a good setup sweeper with neat coverage and screens. I actually think it’s overall better at this than fellow bulky mon Serperior despite the tiering discrepancies, though the former comes first and is a decent Grass.

Woobat as evidenced by Random and Texas Cloverleaf is surprisingly okay, worthy of D. While it gets Calm Mind it’s not the best user because of lacking stats (77 Special Attack and 67/55/55 bulk), though it apparently has an okay midgame.

If you want to test any of the four when you get time, try Audino; it should pleasantly surprise you though you might have to drop some change at Nimbasa for Return and Screens, though Secret Power at 20 is pretty good anyway.

Biased Golett incoming (this was after like 4-5 garbage catches) though that non special bulk sucks. First impressions aren’t very good though the Fighting mons it walls Bulk Up on it, taking forever to kill, three mooks almost drained 40 PP. Night Shade can help but it isn’t useful outside of Fighting types.
 

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Brycen

Simisear (39):
charcoal Fire blast OHKO's everything. If you're worried about missing, you can set up a sunny day or work up on Vanillish which turns Flame burst into a a OHKO on everything. great matchup
Seismitoad (38): muddy water barely fails to OHKO Vanillish after a rain dance (mystic water guarantees the OHKO). It's a 2HKO on Beartic, but Beartic always uses swagger. Seismitoad can survive one round of hitting itself and getting hit by icicle crash, but then you need to heal if you also want to beat Cryogonal. A more reliable way of soloing the fight is with a persim berry. Brick break 2HKO's Beartic after a swagger and Cryogonal is outsped (only in rain) and OHKO'd. Good matchup, but you do need a persim berry to make it reliable.
Archeops (39): Rock slide OHKO's everything. Expert belt is required though. Great matchup
Ferroseed (38): gyro ball depletes about half of Vanillish' health bar, even after an acid armour. Vanillish then usually starts spamming frost breath instead of acid armour, so you can set up two curses. Gyro ball then OHKO's. Beartic uses swagger again. If you hit yourself in confusion, you need to heal the turn after. If you don't hit yourself, you OHKO. Cryogonal doesn't do much damage and is also OHKO'd by gyro ball. I also tested Ferrothorn. The matchup plays out mostly the same, but it's more reliable since you can use persim berry over eviolite. Overall, great matchup, but it's a bit luck based for Ferroseed.
Stunfisk (38): with a magnet equiped, discharge is a 2HKO on Vanillish. Thunderbolt also 2HKO's without magnet, but that requires a backtrack and discharge is generally better anway. If you get the paralyze on discharge, Stunfisk can beat Vanillish totally unscathed since Vanillish alsways uses acid armour on turn one. Beartic is 2HKO by rock slide after a swagger. Stunfisk can comfortably tank an icicle crash as well, so with a persim berry you can actually beat Beartic fairly reliably. Sometimes it goes for swagger twice in a row though, which makes the matchup luck-based. Cryogonals aurora beam doesn't actually do all that much damage (it's a 4HKO), so you can tank it and OHKO with a +2 rock slide. Overall, the matchup isn't all that bad really, for a slow pokemon with an ice weakness anyway.


Drayden

Simisear (42):
If you carried yawn all throughout the game (I did), you can set up here because Fraxure ALWAYS uses at least two dragon dances. You can generally set up three work ups, which is more than enough to OHKO Fraxure with return. However, it's a range on Druddigon and Haxorus. Sometimes you can set up four work ups which guarantees the OHKO on both, but this is inconsistent. Then again, Simisear is just bulky enough to survive a dragon tail even at +3, so if you deposit the rest of your team, you should be able to get 4 work ups and sweep. I also tried a different strategy that gets the kill on Druddigon as well with just three turns of setup, but you have to give up on flame burst for it. Basically, instead of using work up three times, you use work up twice and sunny day once. After this, charchoal fire blast OHKO's both Fraxure and Druddigon reliably, but it's still a range on Haxorus. You also have the option of will-o-wisp, which is very useful here. Overall, it's actually a really good matchup, but you do need to be a bit overleveled if you want to solo it. I actually tested this as well. At level 44, the three work ups + silk scarf return becomes reliable.
Seismitoad (41): bulldoze is a 3HKO on Fraxure. You beat it without taking damage reliably, even considering both of Drayden's healing items, since Fraxure never stops spamming dragon dance. Druddigon and Haxorus are both 4HKO'd. Druddigon usually just phases you out with dragon tail, after which you have to heal. Seismitoad can then come in on Haxorus again at full health. Haxorus generally uses two dragon dances, so you should bulldoze to negate the speed boost. If Haxorus attacks (read: does not use dragon dance) and you use bulldoze again, you can outspeed the next turn. If you made Drayden use up his potions on Fraxure, you can actually beat Haxorus too. Overall, the matchup is alright, but not amazing. You also need some healing
Archeops (42): Acrobatics OHKO's Fraxure. Druddigon survives an acrobatics easily and puts Archeops dangerously close to defeatist range. If you use dragon breath, which doesn't trigger rough skin, you can barely avoid getting knocked into defeatist range and follow up with an Acrobatics for the kill. Rough skin will then put you in defeatist range anyway, so you have to switch and heal. Haxorus isn't OHKO'd by acrobatics, but you can get the 2HKO even if Haxorus puts you into defeatist range so it doesn't matter much. Overall, decent matchup, but Druddigon poses some problems mainly because of rough skin.
Ferrothorn (41): Fraxure uses dragon dance twice again, so you can 2HKO it with gyro ball without taking damage. Druddigon can't touch you if you just curse up. Even revenge won't do much damage. Eventually it will phase you out with dragon tail, but you can just immediately come back in because Druddigon really can't do much to Ferrothorn. Haxorus can't touch it either and is OHKO'd by gyro ball after some curses. Overall, amazing matchup. It's the most relible if you deposit the rest of your team, but it's not really necessary.
Stunfisk (40): Fraxure is barely 2HKO'd by soft sand mud bomb. Druddigon is 4HKO'd, but none of it's moves are all that threatning to Stunfisk so you can win by just spamming mud bomb. Drayden will heal, so you have to heal too. You also probably need an ether for mud bomb. Haxorus is 4HKO'd, but it comes close to a 3HKO. Mud bomb accuracy drops and static will likely come into play in this matchup, which is a huge help to Stunfisks survivability. Overall, pretty good matchup. With some healing support, you can actually duel all three of Drayden's pokemon well as nothing Drayden can throw at you is very threatning to Stunfisk.


And now some suggestions for Ryota's next run. I recommend Audino as well, because it is very fun to use and it also helps against Lenora a lot. If you want another early pokemon, I recommend Blitzle since not a lot of people have used it other than myself. I think it's decent actually, but it falls off hard in the late game. If you want a bit of a challenge, I recommend Patrat. It is absolute garbage until it evolves, but when it does, it's actually quite good for a while. It has a great movepool which makes it surpisingly good in the mid-game matchups.
 
Brycen

Simisear (39):
charcoal Fire blast OHKO's everything. If you're worried about missing, you can set up a sunny day or work up on Vanillish which turns Flame burst into a a OHKO on everything. great matchup
Seismitoad (38): muddy water barely fails to OHKO Vanillish after a rain dance (mystic water guarantees the OHKO). It's a 2HKO on Beartic, but Beartic always uses swagger. Seismitoad can survive one round of hitting itself and getting hit by icicle crash, but then you need to heal if you also want to beat Cryogonal. A more reliable way of soloing the fight is with a persim berry. Brick break 2HKO's Beartic after a swagger and Cryogonal is outsped (only in rain) and OHKO'd. Good matchup, but you do need a persim berry to make it reliable.
Archeops (39): Rock slide OHKO's everything. Expert belt is required though. Great matchup
Ferroseed (38): gyro ball depletes about half of Vanillish' health bar, even after an acid armour. Vanillish then usually starts spamming frost breath instead of acid armour, so you can set up two curses. Gyro ball then OHKO's. Beartic uses swagger again. If you hit yourself in confusion, you need to heal the turn after. If you don't hit yourself, you OHKO. Cryogonal doesn't do much damage and is also OHKO'd by gyro ball. I also tested Ferrothorn. The matchup plays out mostly the same, but it's more reliable since you can use persim berry over eviolite. Overall, great matchup, but it's a bit luck based for Ferroseed.
Stunfisk (38): with a magnet equiped, discharge is a 2HKO on Vanillish. Thunderbolt also 2HKO's without magnet, but that requires a backtrack and discharge is generally better anway. If you get the paralyze on discharge, Stunfisk can beat Vanillish totally unscathed since Vanillish alsways uses acid armour on turn one. Beartic is 2HKO by rock slide after a swagger. Stunfisk can comfortably tank an icicle crash as well, so with a persim berry you can actually beat Beartic fairly reliably. Sometimes it goes for swagger twice in a row though, which makes the matchup luck-based. Cryogonals aurora beam doesn't actually do all that much damage (it's a 4HKO), so you can tank it and OHKO with a +2 rock slide. Overall, the matchup isn't all that bad really, for a slow pokemon with an ice weakness anyway.


Drayden

Simisear (42):
If you carried yawn all throughout the game (I did), you can set up here because Fraxure ALWAYS uses at least two dragon dances. You can generally set up three work ups, which is more than enough to OHKO Fraxure with return. However, it's a range on Druddigon and Haxorus. Sometimes you can set up four work ups which guarantees the OHKO on both, but this is inconsistent. Then again, Simisear is just bulky enough to survive a dragon tail even at +3, so if you deposit the rest of your team, you should be able to get 4 work ups and sweep. I also tried a different strategy that gets the kill on Druddigon as well with just three turns of setup, but you have to give up on flame burst for it. Basically, instead of using work up three times, you use work up twice and sunny day once. After this, charchoal fire blast OHKO's both Fraxure and Druddigon reliably, but it's still a range on Haxorus. You also have the option of will-o-wisp, which is very useful here. Overall, it's actually a really good matchup, but you do need to be a bit overleveled if you want to solo it. I actually tested this as well. At level 44, the three work ups + silk scarf return becomes reliable.
Seismitoad (41): bulldoze is a 3HKO on Fraxure. You beat it without taking damage reliably, even considering both of Drayden's healing items, since Fraxure never stops spamming dragon dance. Druddigon and Haxorus are both 4HKO'd. Druddigon usually just phases you out with dragon tail, after which you have to heal. Seismitoad can then come in on Haxorus again at full health. Haxorus generally uses two dragon dances, so you should bulldoze to negate the speed boost. If Haxorus attacks (read: does not use dragon dance) and you use bulldoze again, you can outspeed the next turn. If you made Drayden use up his potions on Fraxure, you can actually beat Haxorus too. Overall, the matchup is alright, but not amazing. You also need some healing
Archeops (42): Acrobatics OHKO's Fraxure. Druddigon survives an acrobatics easily and puts Archeops dangerously close to defeatist range. If you use dragon breath, which doesn't trigger rough skin, you can barely avoid getting knocked into defeatist range and follow up with an Acrobatics for the kill. Rough skin will then put you in defeatist range anyway, so you have to switch and heal. Haxorus isn't OHKO'd by acrobatics, but you can get the 2HKO even if Haxorus puts you into defeatist range so it doesn't matter much. Overall, decent matchup, but Druddigon poses some problems mainly because of rough skin.
Ferrothorn (41): Fraxure uses dragon dance twice again, so you can 2HKO it with gyro ball without taking damage. Druddigon can't touch you if you just curse up. Even revenge won't do much damage. Eventually it will phase you out with dragon tail, but you can just immediately come back in because Druddigon really can't do much to Ferrothorn. Haxorus can't touch it either and is OHKO'd by gyro ball after some curses. Overall, amazing matchup. It's the most relible if you deposit the rest of your team, but it's not really necessary.
Stunfisk (40): Fraxure is barely 2HKO'd by soft sand mud bomb. Druddigon is 4HKO'd, but none of it's moves are all that threatning to Stunfisk so you can win by just spamming mud bomb. Drayden will heal, so you have to heal too. You also probably need an ether for mud bomb. Haxorus is 4HKO'd, but it comes close to a 3HKO. Mud bomb accuracy drops and static will likely come into play in this matchup, which is a huge help to Stunfisks survivability. Overall, pretty good matchup. With some healing support, you can actually duel all three of Drayden's pokemon well as nothing Drayden can throw at you is very threatning to Stunfisk.


And now some suggestions for Ryota's next run. I recommend Audino as well, because it is very fun to use and it also helps against Lenora a lot. If you want another early pokemon, I recommend Blitzle since not a lot of people have used it other than myself. I think it's decent actually, but it falls off hard in the late game. If you want a bit of a challenge, I recommend Patrat. It is absolute garbage until it evolves, but when it does, it's actually quite good for a while. It has a great movepool which makes it surpisingly good in the mid-game matchups.
Magnus don’t forget you can TM Sesmitoad Dig (don’t blame you for potentially not knowing as Tympole and Palpitoad don’t get it)
 
I know, but then you give Fraxure and Haxorus free setup time. It also triggers Druddigons rough skin.
Makes sense. I’m curious to see what Sesmitoad does for you endgame. Stunfisk seems surprisingly okay (Surf, Scald and Payback might make it tolerable endgame).
 
I'm expecting Seismitoad to fall completely flat against the e4 because it has no standout stats or moves. Stunfisk is doing fine, I guess. It's bulk and power is serviceable and it has a lot of utility. I don't think it will be great against the E4 either though, because it will be too weak to get through all of the bulky e4 mons. I might test it with some x items to see if that is viable.
 
I appreciate you mentioning the lesser stuff. It’s okay you can’t test, even making suggestions helps.

Munna is really weird (using Musharna atm). It tanks hits fine with Eviolite but 3HKOs everything as Munna. Yawn is a saving grace, but honestly, just go with Sigilyph or Solosis. I once thought about using Protect Yawn and Dream Eater but decided against it (Dream Eater is 41). Maybe we could test early Musharna but if I recall it still gets screwed over by endgame, likely because it lacks moves like Calm Mind and Psychic.

Pidove isn’t Starly bias, but because it’s sorely outclassed at everything it wants to do other than using Fly moderately well. It’s movepool is Special despite Unfezant having 65 Special Attack. As a Return beatstick, it’s outclassed by Stoutland. As a Flying type, it’s outclassed by stuff like Swanna (due to a dual type) and Archeops. As a physical attacker you have Darmanitan, Gigalith, the list goes on. When you’re an attacker and only have two real STAB options with almost no diversity outside of random moves like Roost (it doesn’t get U-Turn until post-game) it’s pretty bad, and it’s matchups do it no favors.

Audino IS underrated. I thought it was super unviable, and then I used it. If you play around with Work Up you get a very sturdy mon that can contribute in every boss fight, only falling off slightly at the end (where it can put in work against Shauntal and Ghetsis with Substitute). Fireburn had an inkling of D but I think C is fair for it because while it may not beat some Uber powerful mon it is a good setup sweeper with neat coverage and screens. I actually think it’s overall better at this than fellow bulky mon Serperior despite the tiering discrepancies, though the former comes first and is a decent Grass.

Woobat as evidenced by Random and Texas Cloverleaf is surprisingly okay, worthy of D. While it gets Calm Mind it’s not the best user because of lacking stats (77 Special Attack and 67/55/55 bulk), though it apparently has an okay midgame.

If you want to test any of the four when you get time, try Audino; it should pleasantly surprise you though you might have to drop some change at Nimbasa for Return and Screens, though Secret Power at 20 is pretty good anyway.

Biased Golett incoming (this was after like 4-5 garbage catches) though that non special bulk sucks. First impressions aren’t very good though the Fighting mons it walls Bulk Up on it, taking forever to kill, three mooks almost drained 40 PP. Night Shade can help but it isn’t useful outside of Fighting types.
I've found Golurk to be... nothing special. Granted, mine has Klutz, but even with a perfect Speed IV and a Jolly nature it's often taking hits (which it can't take that well) without doing nearly as much as I'd like in return. I still need to face the E4, but I don't have high hopes for it.

At least it's an awesome Fly option if you still need one at that point in the game.
 
I've found Golurk to be... nothing special. Granted, mine has Klutz, but even with a perfect Speed IV and a Jolly nature it's often taking hits (which it can't take that well) without doing nearly as much as I'd like in return. I still need to face the E4, but I don't have high hopes for it.

At least it's an awesome Fly option if you still need one at that point in the game.
The weird thing is unless you grind on Audino, you kinda want all it’s coverage options (Iron Defense can be helpful too). And even if you grind it immediately to get Golurk with EQ at 45, you can’t actually use it against mooks save for the final badge fight and afterwards. We’ll see though.

I’m worried at the E4 it’s gonna fail to OHKO a lot and at best take out a mon and a half. What was your experience with Golett vs. mooks?
 
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The weird thing is unless you grind on Audino, you kinda want all it’s coverage options (Iron Defense can be helpful too). And even if you grind it immediately to get Golurk with EQ at 45, you can’t actually use it against mooks save for the final badge fight and afterwards. We’ll see though.

I’m worried at the E4 it’s gonna fail to OHKO a lot and at best take out a mon and a half. What was your experience with Golett vs. mooks?
I believe I expressed it here ages ago, and it handled the Team Plasma grunts more or less fine. It was in trouble if it faced Krokorok IIRC, (I think they have Krokorok by Dragonspiral tower) but Watchog literally could never touch it and fared alright against Trubbish/Garbodor. Magnitude is a pain to have to work with, and I didn't bother trying Dynamic Punch.

Fortunately, literally everything else had evolved fully by this point, so I could give Golett the Eviolite so it could take a hit or so. (because 59/50/50 is not standing up to much, and 35 Speed means it's going last)

Golurk, being level 45, couldn't do much at all against the trainers of the gym whose ace Pokemon is two levels below it. It was generally outsped and KOd before it could really do anything, while Druddigon ate its Earthquakes for breakfast and then knocked it out.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Finishing my run on my birthday :D

Beartic(50): Zekrom 2HKOes with Fusion Bolt and Beartic cannot OHKO this sadly. It also fails to OHKO Carracosta, which then OHKOes with Stone Edge. Klinklang doesn't get OHKOed by Superpower. Klinklang outspeeds and first uses Metal Sound then Flash Cannons you. It eats a Flash Cannon from Vanilluxe and OHKOes it with Superpower, at least. Zoroark OHKOes with Focus Blast.

matchup: pretty horrible.

Cofagrigus(50): Cofagrigus can burn Zekrom and spam Hex until it defeats it. Might require some healing items due to N healing it. It can burn Carracosta and similarly spam Hex. Klinklang is specially based, so Cof can't do much here. Zoroark wins, obviously. Vanilluxe is also specially based, so Cofagrigus can't stop it from destroying it. You can burn Archeops, but you also remove its Defeatist... But yeah you have to heal once because unburned Crunch puts it in yellow.

matchup: 50/50

Lilligant(50): +3 Giga Drain is an OHKO on everything, bar Zekrom, which is barely 2HKOed, while Petal Dance is an OHKO on Klinklang. Luring Carracosta to use it as set up bait (since it can eat a Stone Edge, evade it or heal enough damage from a Giga Drain to live another). Also, you can either put it to sleep while N heals it or use a QD while he heals it. Zekrom's Giga Impact deals a lot, being an OHKO with a crit. Lilligant could likely live a Giga Impact but in order to accumulate +3 boost it needs to heal at least once and Zekrom, even then, is not OHKOed even by +3 Petal Dance. Also, it's worth mentioning that Lilligant can't beat Reshiram in White.

matchup: pretty good, due to Zekrom.

Tornadus(51): Tornadus is OHKOed by anything bar Klinklang and Zoroark, the former which still beats Tornadus. Klinklang can be beaten only if you manage to use Revenge 2 times, one of which is a boosted one, and you survive on rolls. Zoroark is reliably defeated, as Tornadus lives any attack and kills with a boosted Revenge.

matchup: pretty bad

Throh(51): I avoided setting up on Zekrom since Throh generally is available on White against Reshiram. Reshiram is a special attacker (and has Reflect), so it has harder time there. If you are able to lure in Carracosta, you are gonna dent N hardly. You can use Carracosta as a setup fodder and use 2 or 3 Bulk Ups. Then you win if either Klinklang's Metal Sound or Vanilluxe's Blizzard misses. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that Throh can OHKO Zoroark and Vanilluxe unboosted with Storm Throw and OHKO Klinklang with Superpower unboosted. Carracosta can also be beaten, but not 2HKOed. Archeops wins if you are not boosted, due to Acrobatics being dangerous

matchup: rather good

Emboar(51): Emboar can't beat Zekrom, Hammer Arm deals laughable damage. Klinklang is OHKOed by Hammer Arm, 3HKOed by Heat Crash and barely OHKOed by Flame Charge. Klinklang can lower its SpD with Metal Sound though. Carracosta beats this due to Waterfall + Aqua Jet combo, which kills it. Vani and Zoroark are both OHKOed by Hammer Arm and can be taken out consecutively. Archeops beats this due to Acrobatics being an OHKO.

matchup: rather good actually


Beartic(50): Cofagrigus' Toxic stalls and Ghetsis' healing make this impossible to defeat. Hydreigon kills with a Focus Blast, and even if it misses, Beartic doesn't OHKO. Bisharp is OHKOed by Superpower if you are able to survive a Stone Edge. Bouffalant wins due to Head Charge and the fact Superpower doesn't OHKO. Eelektross' Flamethrower is a 2HKO, outspeeds and Beartic can't OHKO. Seismitoad can eat 2 Icicle Crashes, and 2HKOes Beartic with Rain Dance Muddy Water, so this one is lost.

matchup: pretty bad

Cofagrigus(50): His Cofagrigus always wins due to outspeeding and 2HKOing, unless his AI derps. The only Pokemon Cofagrigus beats is Eelektross if it burns it. Everything else is either Bisharp (which 4x resists Ghost moves in this gen), Bouffalant, which can only be damaged by burns, or is specially based (cough Seismitoad with Muddy Water and Hydreigon cough)

matchup: pretty bad

Lilligant(50): You can use Cofagrigus as set up fodder. Just Full Restore when the moment is appropriate. +3 Giga Drain is an OHKO. After that, you can use Hydreigon as a set up fodder as well, as Fire Blast is only a 3HKO with those boosts. +4 Giga Drain is a 2HKO on Hydreigon. Bisharp is OHKOed by +4 Petal Dance and everything else is destroyed by Giga Drain as well.

matchup: positive (can't believe I use "positive" for a Ghetsis battle).

Tornadus(51): Crunch is a 3HKO on Cofagrigus, but Toxic can be annoying, so you have to heal it up. Bisharp's Stone Edge is an OHKO, and Revenge is somehowly only a 2HKO, so you only win if it misses twice (though Brick Break TM exists but I doubt it's changing Tornadus' viability in any manner). Eelektross and Hydreigon beat this, the latter outspeeding and surviving even a boosted Revenge. Bouffalant can be beaten wth a combo of Revenge and Acrobatics, but keep in mind that Tornadus barely survives. Seismitoad is 3HKOed I believe, since my Acrobatics crited and put it in red HP. It 2HKOes with Muddy Water.

matchup: pretty bad

Throh(52): Cofagrigus is hard to beat (and I forgot to teach it Payback before going against N). Hydreigon doesn't even 2HKO, so you can set up on first turn a Bulk Up and then kill it with Storm Throw. You then heal on Bouffalant and kill it with Storm Throw as well. Eelektross is killed by a +2 Superpower (it generally goes for Flamethrower with your boosts). Seismitoad is OHKOed by +1 Superpower, I believe, it almost put it in red zone with Storm Throw. Bisharp is obvously beaten. This fight might require 2 Full Restores though (the first one being the one against Hydreigon).

matchup: Semi-pretty good

Emboar(52): Cofagrigus wins as none of your attacks deal enough damage (Heat Crash's output is really laughable). Hydreigon survives a Hammer Arm and 2HKOes with Surf. Seismitoad kills this obviously. Bouffalant is 2HKOed by Hammer Arm, but it kills itself with Head Charge recoil. Eelektross 2HKOes with Acrobatics and Hammer Arm makes you outsped on the next turn. Flame Charge doesn't deal enough to put it into range of a second Hammer Arm. Bisharp is obviously beaten.


I have to sleep now so I will make nominations in a new post. In the meantime, I will also be thinking a bit about what ranks should each thing go to and revise logs and etc.
 
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Hey everyone! Was just about to start another playthrough of BW and saw this thread was still live!

Was wondering if there were any pokes that you'd like tested?
Esioj001, we could use a Snivy retest. I think the other starters are probably going to be in B in Tepig’s case (from how it’s been going), and Oshawott has been consistently an A. I think both you and Ryota can cement where Snivy truly belongs.

As for others...hmm. Everything outside Pinwheel has been tested fairly well. Try Venipede, while the consensus from me and Girintina IIRC was it’s a C, maybe you’ll see some hidden merits.

While Turdterra is gonna eventually test the first two as well, Sigilyph and either Moxie Sandile or Moxie Scraggy could be used. The former two have had next to no testing, while the latter needs some to be seen if it’s worth of S. Make sure you get the ability Moxie on either of the last two, while Intimidate and Shed Skin can also be useful respectively, Moxie helps much more sweeping things. This was shown in how Ryota found Scraggy a lot more underwhelming KO wise without Moxie (not a jab at Ryota).

I dunno if you’ll run with a party of more than four, but if you do, try Adaptability Basculin or Cursed Body Frillish for your water type. Neither have seen opinions (though from my experience I felt Basculin warranted C). Adaptability Water STAB, Crunch, and Return is all you really need so you can fill the last slot with like Aqua Jet or Final Gambit at 51 (sacrifices Basculin to deal damage equal to HP you had when used).

And if you want one last mon for a party of six (can be viable due to Lucky Egg) go for either Syncronize Elgyem or Durant (either ability can work, Hustle is risky but gives more power yet Swarm is more reliable and Bug STAB is used more endgame). Don’t forget to get the X-Scissor TM on Route 7 next to Celestial Tower so you don’t have to wait for it by level.

Options I ultimately decided against for you: Part of me wants to suggest early Musharna, but IIRC someone tested that a while back and found it meh endgame, and from my experiences with Munna it’ll probably be C at best (and that’s being generous). I don’t want to suggest Panpour (as you get a free one in Dreamyard for Snivy); I don’t think many really doubt that thing in A (early Scald is super borked which carries it to post-Gym 6 coverage easily).

Hope this helps, and welcome to the thread! And if you need a filler mon like Sawk/Throh just to help test Lenora (as you’ll only have one Pokémon at that point) I don’t mind you using it temporarily and dropping it post-Venipede. Same with Panpour for Gym 1 and Cheren. And if you need a little help for Gym 3, go catch a Darumaka briefly, but after that your team of 4 should be well rounded. I apologize for some of the less...streamlined mons earlygame, but they’ve kinda already been tested and I wanted to give some time to let the dust on nominations settle.
 
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Update 8

V.S Drayden. Everyone is Lvl 43. Went to Route 10 and grabbed a Dusk Stone to get Chandelure.

Liepard: Fake Out+2 Night Slashes take out Fraxure. Druddigon lives a crit Night Slash and OHKO's with Revenge. Haxorus eats a Night Slash for 20%, outspeeds at +1 and kills with Dragon Tail. If it misses though, you win this.
Results: lol E Tier. can't beat 2/3 mons but beats Fraxure down handly.

Chandelure: Shadow Ball clocks Fraxure and 2HKO's the bigger bois. You need to WilloWisp the Druddigon in order to eat Night Slashes from it. Most of the time, Haxorus goes for DD+DT, but if it Assurance's you're dead.
Results: easy sweep S TIer.

Simipour(without Blizzard because 70% sucks): Acrobatics's 2HKO's Fraxure. lolroughskindruddigon and lol147AtkHaxorus.
Results: should've blizzard F Tier.

Escavalier: lolFraxure and LolHaxorus they can't hurt you, Iron Head 2HKO's both. Revenge can 5HKO(4HKO with ROugh Skin) but that's about it, X-Scissor 2HKO's.
Results: LOL S tier

Lilligant: Sleep Powder+5 QD=GD OHKO on all of them.
Results: Reliable and easy? S Tier for sure

Emolga: Easy 2HKO on Fraxure with Acrobatic. Druddigon and it's Spdef and Rough Skin make it a impossible fight. Haxorus is possible if it goes for DD twice, as Acrobatics does 35% so it dodges the heal range, but if it Dragon Tail's you're gone.
Results: Beats 1/3 guaranteed and can maybe beat Haxorus. C Tier
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Hi I was a bit late with nominations but here they are (keep in mind some might be controversial and/or weird):

The only reason I tested Tornadus was because I thought it could destroy the Elite Four and Plasma bosses, which could warrant its rise to D. However, it failed to meet that expectation (it had some lackluster matchups in Plasma bosses' battles) and thus I think it should stay E. Thundurus' only notable moves are Discharge, Fly, and Brick Break, so analogically I think it should also stay. At the very least, you can trust me to do a good write-up for Torn when the time comes.


I thought initially Cofagrigus could rise to C, but as the game advanced more, Cofagrigus became much more reliant on items, to the point of being ridiculous and annoying. Also, it has to rely solely on status and Ghost moves, and it can't even touch any Normal-type or Special Dark mons (N's Zoroark in particular). So I think Yamask is not on the level of the other C mons and is fine in D.


Cubchoo, as far as my testings went, is not really fully useless and has its niches. It's able to beat Skyla, contribute majorly to Brycen, and defeat Drayden effortlessly. I read someone's post saying that it had bad matchup with Drayden, but that does not coincide with my experience, where it actually OHKOed everything. If it had a better matchup against the E4, I'd nominate for C, but it doesn't, so D is fine for it.


As I have mentioned few times in the past, Emboar's movepool becomes horrible as the game advances. The only decent move endgame would be Flamethrower (though I had -SpA nature so I didn't use it). Emboar fails to be on the level of the other Fighting-types, like Sawk, Throh, and Conk, its Heat Crash deals laughable damage to end-game opponents, which are also heavy, and suffers from extensive 4MSS, as it wants to run much more moves in order to not get checked fully by something. These arguments make me believe that Tepig should not be in A, along with the other Fighting-types, as even its unique elements are kind of falling. However, Tepig's status as starter and being really useful for the early and midgame do make it perfect for B.


There is no doubt this is S rank material. Most major fights don't have a 4x resist, so when you set up few QDs, their resistances become irrelevant. Its only bad matchup is Burgh, where, even then, can at least beat Dwebble. A lot of end-game mons are also special attackers, meaning Lilligant can easily use them as a set up bait. Physical attackers can either be put to sleep with Sleep Powder or just can't really OHKO Lilligant, which can heal itself with Giga Drain, while dealing serious damage. Petal Dance is also a powerful option for Lilligant to destroy bulky resists, although generally few QDs (which Lilligant can afford to accumulate) allow Lilligant to break them. Other people probs have other reasons to nom it for S, but those are the reasons I think should be voiced.


Throh is a really difficult here, as it does perform on S level imo, but Drumstick's experience vastly diffenetrates from mine. He apparently had not used it against Shauntal (if I am wrong, please excuse me and correct me, this is the way I read it), wheres here I used it and beat 3/4 of her mons (he stated it was good against Marshal and Grimsley, which is correct). Furthermore, his Throh failed to kill Hydreigon, wheres mine had a better matchup. I think Drumstick should retest Throh (or have someone else do it), while I am testing Timburr, as it was also described as a "Poor Man's Timburr".


Thanks for waiting, hope my testings were not in vain and lead towards development.

EDIT FOR THROH: If it wasn't clear, I am currently abstaining from nomming it, because I believe someone else should confirm if my experience was correct or merely a luck.
 
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Everyone was Level 45 for Drayden, and they all swept him pretty handily. All attempts with my mons save one bunch (took Musharna with Darmanitan by accident) was with one party member. And I did that puzzle 7 times in one run on cart...

Sawk: Fraxure seems to repeatedly DD while you Bulk Up. Druddigon is a range to OHKO with +2 Brick Break (chance you can leave him in high red, but it IS possible to OHKO, albeit unlikely. Arguably Haxorus is too since they have similar bulk (equal defense, Druddigon has 77 HP as opposed to Haxorus’s 76) though it never survived any attempt I was at +2. First attempt ended in green, as did second attempt too I believe. Third attempt I found out you can actually get off three Bulk Up uses while Fraxure DDs 3 times (seems to use Dragon Tail turn 4). Only damage was via Rough Skin as everything was OHKOed. Fraxure buffed 4 times in the follow up which went the exact same way since I buffed to +3 again. Fifth attempt I went for +2 again to confirm Druddigon is cleanly 2HKOed by +2 Rock Slide (to stop the healing loop). Without boosts you 2HKO Fraxure, but fail to 2HKO Druddigon. Druddigon seems to be 2HKOed by +1 Rock Slide. You do about 3/4 of Druddigon’s or Haxorus’s HP with +1 Brick Break. Tested unboosted and +1 once each since it was apparent +2 or higher is the way to go. With some luck on damage rolls you should be able to boost to +2 and win, though 3 can guarantee it and Fraxure or Druddigon can’t really threaten you due to Defense buffs from Bulk Up. You should outspeed Haxorus but that might be Dragon Tail at work, and I doubt he’d threaten you. Chip Away from Druddigon leaves you in green.

Golurk: Testing with Soft Sand. You should outspeed Fraxure turn 1 to get in a buff before he DDs. Then boost to +6. Soft Sand EQ OHKOS Fraxure. Notably, an EQ crit can OHKO Druddigon. EQ vs. Haxorus left it solidly in red, though do note I have a 31 IV in Attack (Attack stat is 147 at level 45). Finished first fight in green health.

Test 2. If Fraxure goes for Assurance while you Iron Defense it does like 26 damage (7HKO). EQ OHKOed Fraxure again and left Druddigon in red this time as I didn’t crit. You can easily solo by spamming EQ if they don’t crit; left in low yellow this time. Test 3 without boosting. Night Slash from Druddigon took me down to 72/136 HP (64 damage, note this is likely more than usual because of my low HP and Defense IVs). Haxorus used Dragon Tail turn 1 while I went for Low Sweep; I ended up at 15 HP and killed with EQ. Tested without Soft Sand (to simulate a average Attack IV); Fraxure was now a range to OHKO and Assurance did 56 HP leaving me at 80 HP. Druddigon’s Night Slash knocked me to 12 HP. You now knock both Druddigon and Haxorus to about 1/4 HP with EQ, so solid 2HKO. Golurk fell before killing Haxorus though.

Obviously Iron Defense is the way to go here. You could probably throw in an X Attack for good measure against Fraxure.

Gigalith: Buff up to +6 with Iron Defense, then nothing touches you. Fraxure is 2HKOed by Return or Rock Slide. You can barely 2HKO Druddigon and Haxorus with Rock Slide (though they seem to be a range). First attempt I literally only took around 20 damage. Best thing about this matchup is that if he goes for Dragon Tail, you can flinch with Rock Slide. Second attempt I missed at least one Rock Slide and got crit by Druddigon and I still won in yellow without healing. Attempt three I didn’t boost; still won in green health (though I did crit Fraxure). I did find out Druddigon is faster than Gigalith though. Even still, I won without healing.

Musharna: Testing with Rocky Helmet. Yawn turn 1 as Fraxure DDs. Then Calm Mind. Fraxure Assurance does about 90 HP at +1, roughly half your HP. Calm Mind twice and hope it stays asleep for the third turn. Fraxure used Dragon Tail the third turn asleep, so it died to Psychic. Druddigon presumably went for Dragon Tail and got OHKOed; Haxorus went for Dragon Dance and was also OHKOed. Now not using Rocky Helmet. Second attempt. Fraxure went for two DDs before falling asleep. 2 Calm Minds and it died. Druddigon presumably went for Dragon Tail and was OHKOed; same with Haxorus, ended at full HP. Another attempt, no Rocky Helmet, unboosted. You come darn close to OHKOing Fraxure with Psychic by putting it in red. Charge Beam as he heals to chip, and hopefully he’ll go for DD again as you boost to +1. Sadly, +1 Psychic leaves Druddigon in red, while he went for...Revenge against me. Again, Charge Beam on the heal to hopefully buff to +2 then kill next turn. Haxorus went for DD while I OHKOed with +2 Psychic. In a final attempt (still no Rocky Helmet), attempting to muscle through with unboosted Psychic 2HKOed Druddigon, and as it seemed to be a range, I’d imagine Haxorus is similar (ended up dying to its Assurance). I assume Rocky Helmet is the way to go here, as it looks like it probably closes the gap on some of the ranges.

Darmanitan: Charoal. Anyway, first match was lopsided because I crit Fraxure and Haxorus; Fraxure DD’d while I used Belly Drum. Presumably everything went for Dragon Tail, and all were OHKOed. Next attempt: Belly Drum on DD again, everything seemed to be OHKOed without crits while they all seemed to use Dragon Tail.

Tested without Charcoal. Both Fraxure and Drudd died easily, and I was around 60 HP due to Rough Skin (IIRC the HP I was at in the other matches too). Haxorus used Slash to kill me (it didn’t crit either). Tested again without Charcoal; this time it OHKOed everything.

Testing without Belly Drum while using Charcoal. Darn cleanly knocked Fraxure into 1/3 health with Fire Punch; considering mine is Brave this should be a 2HKO for any Darmanitan. Fraxure DDed twice like a dummy allowing me to kill it. My Darmanitan crit Druddigon to low red with Fire Punch, and took Night Slash while remaining in green HP even from Rough Skin damage. You 3HKO Drudd with Fire Punch sadly, and it can tank through you with items and Rough Skin damage; even it missing Dragon Tail once didn’t let Darm prevail over it (though wasted two healing items and got it to red again).

Next attempt Fraxure went for Dragon Rage turn two. Flare Blitz did like...2/3 of Druddigon’s HP, and it killed me with Revenge. Another attempt revealed Fraxure does about 70 HP with +1 Assurance (slightly under half HP). Druddigon went for Chip Away while a combo of Fire Punch + Flare Blitz killed it. One more attempt spamming Flare Blitz showed me OHKOing Fraxure (and doing about as much damage in recoil as Dragon Rage would. Flare Blitzed Drudd and I lived a Night Slash AND Rough Skin damage from Fire Punch next turn. Died to Haxorus Assurance though.

Tested unboosted without Charcoal. You STILL 2 shot Fraxure and Drudd with Fire Punch and Flare Blitz respectively (tho I’m Brave natured). When I tested with Work Up, i again crit Fraxure and Haxorus to OHKO with Fire Punch and Flare Blitz respectively. Drudd was OHKOed off a non-crit Flare Blitz. So the general consensus is; if the Ai derps and uses Dragon Tail on 2/3 turns, you should win if using Belly Drum. Even without boosting you should take down everything save Haxorus with a little luck against Druddigon and Fraxure.

Samurott: X Accuracy + Blizzard with NeverMeltIce. Fraxure DDed three times first attempt; sadly I missed Blizzard and then misclicked with Surf so I reset. Logged it because 3 DDs is notable.

Now onto the first real attempt (after I once forgot to use an X Accuracy on the second attempt and reset again). Assuming you hit post-X Accuracy, you OHKO Fraxure and even OHKO Druddigon AND Haxorus (was surprised at this given my low Special Attack IV). Fraxure went for DD twice like a dummy, and Haxorus went for a DD and died. Tested this again and it went the exact same way save a crit on Druddigon, so I’d assume it’s fairly reliable. Without NeverMeltIce you still OHKO Fraxure and put Drudd in red with Blizzard (you can chip it into range of a kill with Surf as it heals). I put Haxorus in red and froze it solid (lol). Chipped it with Surf to put it in range, and it apparently went for Dragon Tail as I killed it. I’d imagine the average Samurott can do this fine as again my Special Attack IV is low and I still soloed it twice without an optimal item (tested with Amulet Coin the second attempt, it went much the same way sans the freeze and me using Surf before Blizzard so I only needed to use the latter 3 times as opposed to 5 in the previous attempt. My Samurott took Chip Away from Drudd and 1 Dragon Tail from Haxorus while being slightly below half HP at the end; I still never healed. Even disregarding Blizzard or an item, you 2HKO Fraxure with Return and 3HKO Druddigon with Return or Megahorn, so Samurott is still not completely useless here even at a disadvantage. Great with Blizzard, somewhat mediocre without it.

I apologize for being slightly slower to finish Drayden testing, but that was due to slight burnout and doing the puzzle over and over.
 
Noticing a lot of people are getting close to the end of their runs. For this reason, I'd like to propose the following: me doing my own test run (so I'm not theorymonning for once, hallelujah) once everyone gets to the end, so we could all start fresh at the same time and I could help out. Alternatively, I can start the run now if you'd like.

Y'all would have to tell me when to actually start my run and what Pokemon you want me to use, but as a Generation 5 enthusiast, I'm down for using basically anything. Note that I have my copy of Black that I'm not currently using for anything, so I plan on using that. Now going over specific changes for my run:

1. I plan on using a full team of six, unless you wish for me not to do so. While usually inefficient for these tests, I'm okay with doing it as Audino Farming + Lucky Egg makes grinding significantly less painful in BW, plus I could test more mons at once. Since 2013, every playthrough I've ever done has had a full team, so I'm used to it.

2. I would like to request to test the postgame if possible. It's okay if you only want me to test up to the battles with N and Ghetsis. Heck, it's fine if you don't want me to test at all. That being said, the postgame would open up more capabilities for certain Pokemon (Legendaries, super lategame evolutions, etc.) and also has important trainers like Alder, Cynthia, that dude in the Game Freak building, and more. Note that I wouldn't be using any non-Unova postgame exclusive Pokemon, so don't worry about that.

Edit: If you support this idea, I would appreciate replies being focused on either Pokemon you want me to test (minimum 3, maximum 6) or details on exactly how I should test. Of course, both would be even better, but that's optional.
 
Noticing a lot of people are getting close to the end of their runs. For this reason, I'd like to propose the following: me doing my own test run (so I'm not theorymonning for once, hallelujah) once everyone gets to the end, so we could all start fresh at the same time and I could help out. Alternatively, I can start the run now if you'd like.

Y'all would have to tell me when to actually start my run and what Pokemon you want me to use, but as a Generation 5 enthusiast, I'm down for using basically anything. Note that I have my copy of Black that I'm not currently using for anything, so I plan on using that. Now going over specific changes for my run:

1. I plan on using a full team of six, unless you wish for me not to do so. While usually inefficient for these tests, I'm okay with doing it as Audino Farming + Lucky Egg makes grinding significantly less painful in BW, plus I could test more mons at once. Since 2013, every playthrough I've ever done has had a full team, so I'm used to it.

2. I would like to request to test the postgame if possible. It's okay if you only want me to test up to the battles with N and Ghetsis. Heck, it's fine if you don't want me to test at all. That being said, the postgame would open up more capabilities for certain Pokemon (Legendaries, super lategame evolutions, etc.) and also has important trainers like Alder, Cynthia, that dude in the Game Freak building, and more. Note that I wouldn't be using any non-Unova postgame exclusive Pokemon, so don't worry about that.

Edit: If you support this idea, I would appreciate replies being focused on either Pokemon you want me to test (minimum 3, maximum 6) or details on exactly how I should test. Of course, both would be even better, but that's optional.
We're only focused on testing up to N and Ghetsis. Try to stick within two-three levels of the current gym leader's ace, though a full team will certainly make that easier. (i.e. don't Audino grind too much if you can help it)
 

Jerry the great

Banned deucer.
I have a nomination. Enjoy!
Pawniward for D instead of E.
Sure, it may be late, like after Dragonspiral tower, but what it does when getting it is amazing. I would nominate it higher, but it's too late for that.
It does really good against Drayden (with a hyper potion or two), except for Druddigon because revenge, but the other two only have moves not very effective against it. As if that wasn't enough... It blasts Shantelle and Catilyn (who are elite four). Catilyn gets destroyed thanks to pawniward's dark type. It also does pretty excellent against Shantelle. As for N, it beats him up with brick break equipped. Archeops dies from iron head, brick break let's it easily beat Klinkklang and Zoroark, iron head just bops Vanniluxe, brick break can tear down Carrocosta. The only one it doesn't beat is N's legendary dragon, but hey you'll destroy him with your own legendary dragon. It also beats Gethesis' Cofagrigus really easily thanks to it's steel typing and dark type. With brick break, you stomp his own Bisharp thanks to his not having coverage to beat yours. The thing that keeps it from unleashing it's true potential however, is that you don't get it until late game.
 
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