Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

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We're only focused on testing up to N and Ghetsis. Try to stick within two-three levels of the current gym leader's ace, though a full team will certainly make that easier. (i.e. don't Audino grind too much if you can help it)
What I'll probably end up doing is playing the postgame but not testing, just playing for fun. Now, two questions for everyone:

1. When shall I start my test run?
2. Who needs tested from me the most? In other words, I need Pokemon to use.
 
Hi I was a bit late with nominations but here they are (keep in mind some might be controversial and/or weird):

The only reason I tested Tornadus was because I thought it could destroy the Elite Four and Plasma bosses, which could warrant its rise to D. However, it failed to meet that expectation (it had some lackluster matchups in Plasma bosses' battles) and thus I think it should stay E. Thundurus' only notable moves are Discharge, Fly, and Brick Break, so analogically I think it should also stay. At the very least, you can trust me to do a good write-up for Torn when the time comes.


I thought initially Cofagrigus could rise to C, but as the game advanced more, Cofagrigus became much more reliant on items, to the point of being ridiculous and annoying. Also, it has to rely solely on status and Ghost moves, and it can't even touch any Normal-type or Special Dark mons (N's Zoroark in particular). So I think Yamask is not on the level of the other C mons and is fine in D.


Cubchoo, as far as my testings went, is not really fully useless and has its niches. It's able to beat Skyla, contribute majorly to Brycen, and defeat Drayden effortlessly. I read someone's post saying that it had bad matchup with Drayden, but that does not coincide with my experience, where it actually OHKOed everything. If it had a better matchup against the E4, I'd nominate for C, but it doesn't, so D is fine for it.


As I have mentioned few times in the past, Emboar's movepool becomes horrible as the game advances. The only decent move endgame would be Flamethrower (though I had -SpA nature so I didn't use it). Emboar fails to be on the level of the other Fighting-types, like Sawk, Throh, and Conk, its Heat Crash deals laughable damage to end-game opponents, which are also heavy, and suffers from extensive 4MSS, as it wants to run much more moves in order to not get checked fully by something. These arguments make me believe that Tepig should not be in A, along with the other Fighting-types, as even its unique elements are kind of falling. However, Tepig's status as starter and being really useful for the early and midgame do make it perfect for B.


There is no doubt this is S rank material. Most major fights don't have a 4x resist, so when you set up few QDs, their resistances become irrelevant. Its only bad matchup is Burgh, where, even then, can at least beat Dwebble. A lot of end-game mons are also special attackers, meaning Lilligant can easily use them as a set up bait. Physical attackers can either be put to sleep with Sleep Powder or just can't really OHKO Lilligant, which can heal itself with Giga Drain, while dealing serious damage. Petal Dance is also a powerful option for Lilligant to destroy bulky resists, although generally few QDs (which Lilligant can afford to accumulate) allow Lilligant to break them. Other people probs have other reasons to nom it for S, but those are the reasons I think should be voiced.


Throh is a really difficult here, as it does perform on S level imo, but Drumstick's experience vastly diffenetrates from mine. He apparently had not used it against Shauntal (if I am wrong, please excuse me and correct me, this is the way I read it), wheres here I used it and beat 3/4 of her mons (he stated it was good against Marshal and Grimsley, which is correct). Furthermore, his Throh failed to kill Hydreigon, wheres mine had a better matchup. I think Drumstick should retest Throh (or have someone else do it), while I am testing Timburr, as it was also described as a "Poor Man's Timburr".


Thanks for waiting, hope my testings were not in vain and lead towards development.

EDIT FOR THROH: If it wasn't clear, I am currently abstaining from nomming it, because I believe someone else should confirm if my experience was correct or merely a luck.
Moved Archen to A
Moved Tepig to B
Moved Cubchoo to D
Moved Petilil to S
Should be fairly straightforward. Petilil is how you move something to S; group support.

What I'll probably end up doing is playing the postgame but not testing, just playing for fun. Now, two questions for everyone:

1. When shall I start my test run?
2. Who needs tested from me the most? In other words, I need Pokemon to use.
1. When is fairly irrelevant. IRL stuff will always come first, and also burnout happens. Just don’t disappear for two long in-between updates (usually after two gyms of progress we update) and you’ll be fine.
2.Use Snivy, Audino, Pidove, Elgyem, Moxie Scraggy and Jellicent. Sorry for being brief; this list was kinda compiled in a hurry. I tried to cater to what mons you wanted potential revaluation of. Postgame stuff is interesting but it’s too late to reverse course; maybe if everyone wants we can do a mass Let’s Play thread of postgame.
Be wary of testing six mons on cart though. While it is feasible level wise (I’ve only had to use the daily stadiums for levels, and almost never Audino unless I see it in passing or want to round off a level), it gets tedious and burnout can happen easily when you make detailed write-ups.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
So wait. You liked my nomination which shows you seen it, but you didn't reply to it or rank Pawniward up. Why?
Patience is a virtue, my dude. Even then, I am psure he will have someone test Pawniard (unless you have already tested it, which you likely want to mention), but I have my own doubts that Pawniard performs as well against Shauntal due to Chandy and Golurk threatening it hardly, and Cof being annoying with the burns.

N's Zoroark has Focus Blast, so I would say Bisharp relies on luck to beat it. Its matchups against the final bosses also depends on whenever it can achieve 2HKOes on them (Again, I don't know if it does but in the event someone other than me tests it, here are good points to try to challenge (or agree with if they turn out to be right)). From many runs I have done, I can confidently say that a Pokemon is gonna struggle with an end-game boss if it cannot at least 2HKO something (for example, Klinklang can theoritically outspeed and lower its SpD with Metal Sound and then 2HKO with Tbolt if Bisharp can't 2HKO, again, only theoritical, I have never used Pawniard to know).

I do not necessarily oppose this nomination (I would oppose it if I have tested it), but I am merely giving doubts for a potential tester to confirm or disconfirm, because just by looking it at it (considering BB's shacky power for end-game), it might have difficulties against even Shauntal, yet alone N/Ghetsis. I am happy to be objected, as long as it leads to accurate results.

I have recently beaten Skyla, but I will provide logs once I get to Drayden, perhaps, if I finish my run relatively fast, I could try testing Pawniard myself (I was asked to test Durant and I already have 5 members), though its evolution level being not reasonable (47 before E4, 50 with some Rare Candies) is rather sad.
 
Ah. Forgot about testing. My bad. Also, yeah I forgot about focus blast.
Not to mention, just look at the movepool.
91E90323-E1F9-4DB2-8A3D-81D4B8AABF51.png

You get Pawniard at a max level of 39 in dark grass, minimum of 31 at a 20% chance. Seeing as you shouldn’t go much higher than 45 for Drayden/Iris (which you’ll be taking on with the absolute beauty of Metal Claw and Assurance at Gym 8) and they have Revenge Druddigon (and boosting moves which kinda override the positive matchup) this in reality isn’t good for Pawniard.

To Pawniard’s credit, it is in the Medium Fast EXP group. But when you realize you have to get this thing to 52 with those offensive moves I mentioned...yeah. I mean you can Brick Break Audino, but if you want to play the game efficiently you should be leveling on mooks, which by and large are evolved at this point. There is no way Pawniard is taking on the Black Belts and Battle Girls, or the other high-leveled evolved mooks in Victory Road.

Shauntal and Caitlin? Former has Will-O-Wisp Cofagrigus, Chandelure, AND Golurk. Jellicent hits Bisharp specially off 65 HP and 70 Special Defense. Caitlin has Focus Blast Reuniclus. Slightly better but her mons are going to wear you down with repeated hits. As for the rest, you can Brick Break some things, but stuff like Ghetsis’s Bouffalant will eat it and will EQ you back. Ghetsis in general is awful for Bisharp, as while you can setup with X items on Cofagrigus, the rest of his team save maybe Bisharp cleanly beats it.
 
I just want to say... The only two of Ghetsis' team I said it does good against, is honestly Cofagrigus and his own Bisharp.
That may be. But even so, it’s the final boss. You kinda need a good showing for Ghetsis, even if anything can Substitute and boost on Cofagrigus. On the other hand, it is okay against N. It does wall Archeops and Vanilluxe decently at least, and can do things vs Klinklang. I doubt it’s doing much beyond that without item reliance.

Please read the rest of this post. It is not out of harmful intent, but rather to establish what can make a mon D at the eighth gym and the others E. I respect your opinion and I hope this does not come across as an attack. Like I’ve said, everyone’s opinion is valid, I just think accuracy in how a mon performs is important.

I think I liked your post because we are lacking in new testers. So, why is Pawniard D?
It’s because it needs to be level 52 to evolve. Granted, I had a Stoutland at level 53 at one point early on in this list, but that was when the tier list was still getting the rules set.

Nowadays, most are around 46-50 for the league. To be at 52 before the E4, you kinda have to abuse Audino or the side routes/ stadiums, killing efficency. And even if you get Bisharp, its matchups aside from Caitlin and N are shaky and it is not sweeping many foes, not to mention it won’t perform as well as earlier mons because it will have lacking EVs.

To be a D rank by Opelucid, you need to come barreling out of the gates by being evolved or have a competent moveset. Let’s look at a mon who is D that comes around the same time: Bouffalant. Putting this in a spoiler tag due to a lengthy explanation, but I want to focus on it because it is a mon that exemplifies a D tier due to lateness that is still okay endgame.
C24028CD-BE86-4EFC-AE86-AA402C3D7F05.png

Bouffalant is able to be used right away, with an acceptable 110 Attack and great bulk all around. 55 Speed isn’t too bad, because most things it wants to hit are either slower (Caitlin), targets for Revenge (both Bisharp and Grimsley’s Liepard) or things it can hit with Payback or slow down with Bulldoze (Shauntal).

In addition, Bouffalant has a great movepool for that point.
84DC299A-E05B-4888-8660-4E5E363A96A8.png

32AEE26D-BF6F-439C-97C1-10CA8EA33B41.png

You catch Bouffalant at level 39-40 in the dark grass on Route 10 at a 20% encounter rate. Seeing as you can go there pre-Gym 8 you can immediately put a powerful, preferably Reckless Head Charge to use there. If I’m calculating correctly with Reckless it is 216 power on a neutral target counting STAB and 20% Reckless boost (it has 120 base power). That’s not even factoring in the fact you can go get Silk Scarf on Route 6 with a slight detour.

Against the E4, Shauntal is iffy unless Jellicent and Golurk speed creep you so Payback can be full power. Grimsley you could feasibly bear two mons thanks to the Bouffalant’s bulk. Marshall you can at least likely tank a hit and smash something with Head Charge. Caitlin is a pretty good matchup. I doubt you’ll OHKO with non-STAB Megahorn, but since you are faster than both Reuniclus and Musharna you can least chunk them.

Against N, you can Wild Charge Carracosta and Archeops, or Revenge Klinklang, Vanilluxe or Zoroark. While I don’t think you’ll beat more than one mon, it’s not quite useless here. Ghetsis is mostly neutral aside from Bisharp. You can probably take Eelektross one on one. As for Hydreigon, it’s debatable-you might not live a Focus Blast due to low EVs, and Megahorn is the safer play in case he misses with Focus Blast. The others are mostly neutral.

Thanks for making the effort to nominate Pawniard for D. There is nothing inherently wrong with doing so. I ask that you look at movesets on Bulbapedia before you nominate something, as something at a glance can seem much better than it actually is unless you look at the surrounding details (this is NOT calling you stupid by the way, not everyone knows these games inside and out). Have a nice day, and don’t be afraid to nominate other Pokémon.
 

Jerry the great

Banned deucer.
Of course I knew what moves pawniward had. Even so... TMs exist, allowing you to get good stab and coverage earlier than, oh level 49. As for Boufullant, let's just say it's one of the better mons in D tier. But I mean, if you can sweep the final boss with a Mon all by it's self, even if you have to set up like mad... That's impressive. And thanks for being as positive as you could be.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Of course I knew what moves pawniward had. Even so... TMs exist, allowing you to get good stab and coverage earlier than, oh level 49. As for Boufullant, let's just say it's one of the better mons in D tier. But I mean, if you can sweep the final boss with a Mon all by it's self, even if you have to set up like mad... That's impressive. And thanks for being as positive as you could be.
Its TM movepool is far from ideal either; the only notable move that is not too situational (designed to only kill a specific mon ) is Brick Break. Aerial Ace isn't really a great option for Marshal, because Marshal is gonna destroy it anyways. Dig isn't hitting anything other than Chandelure, which will then just gladly kill you with FBlast since you failed to OHKO, Klinklang (a bit harder than BB), and Carracosta, which has titanic Defense to eat it. X-Scissor is pointless, other than hitting Liepard a bit harder, albeit not really harder, since Night Slash would hit harder Caitlin and the fact Bisharp loses to Grimsley's Krook anyways. So I do not agree that its TM movepool in any means fixes up its movepool issue and just proves that Pawniard's movepool is pretty limited.
 
Of course I knew what moves pawniward had. Even so... TMs exist, allowing you to get good stab and coverage earlier than, oh level 49. As for Boufullant, let's just say it's one of the better mons in D tier. But I mean, if you can sweep the final boss with a Mon all by it's self, even if you have to set up like mad... That's impressive. And thanks for being as positive as you could be.
You’re welcome. Sweeping Ghetsis may be impressive in a vacuum. However, I’d argue you need significant investment to actually sweep Ghetsis. Rock Polish and Double Team TMs are postgame (I wouldn’t allow the latter anyway, Evasion Clause is broken for a reason in competitive). So you need to rely on X items. You’d probably need at least two X Speed to outspeed Hydreigon, and since you lack EVs you need a bunch of X Attack (don’t try to level up Pawniard to 57 for Swords Dance, that’s silly and also requires going out of your way; Bisharp learns it at level 63).

Sweeping Ghetsis isn’t exclusive to Bisharp either. Stoutland can do it.
Audino can do it (though I doubt I soloed N first try). Ryota swept Ghetsis with Excadrill and Darmanitan. Scrafty can sub on Cofagrigus and setup with Work Up. So I don’t really categorize this as impressive given a lot of things can do it if you get the Substitute TM from Twist Mountain in Winter (changing the clock is irrelevant for the most part late in the game). Again, I respect your opinion, but sweeping Ghetsis is hardly exclusive.
 
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Moved Archen to A
Moved Tepig to B
Moved Cubchoo to D
Moved Petilil to S
Should be fairly straightforward. Petilil is how you move something to S; group support.


1. When is fairly irrelevant. IRL stuff will always come first, and also burnout happens. Just don’t disappear for two long in-between updates (usually after two gyms of progress we update) and you’ll be fine.
2.Use Snivy, Audino, Pidove, Elgyem, Moxie Scraggy and Jellicent. Sorry for being brief; this list was kinda compiled in a hurry. I tried to cater to what mons you wanted potential revaluation of. Postgame stuff is interesting but it’s too late to reverse course; maybe if everyone wants we can do a mass Let’s Play thread of postgame.
Be wary of testing six mons on cart though. While it is feasible level wise (I’ve only had to use the daily stadiums for levels, and almost never Audino unless I see it in passing or want to round off a level), it gets tedious and burnout can happen easily when you make detailed write-ups.
I have a plan for the burnout and even if I didn't, I could still cover more mons for you. I really don't care what mons need re-evaluated, but will still stick with the team. In other words, you don't have to cater. (Personally, some edits I think could be made from theorymonning include Tirtouga to B and Cobalion to A, but that's just me.) I'm a fan of basically everything Gen 5 related, after all.

I'm probably going to see if I can get up to the first Gym in the next day or two, and plan on testing Snivy's matchup with Chili both with and without using the free Panpour (yeet free HM user) just to be safe. If the six Pokemon count becomes too stressful (it won't for me), I can just rotate team members. My last point I wanted to bring up had to do with Jellicent; would you rather me go for a wild Frillish or try and get a wild evolved one? (I think both are possible, idk)

Oh I lied, sorry one last thing, should I try for neutral natures on every Pokemon? This is optional of course
 
I have a plan for the burnout and even if I didn't, I could still cover more mons for you. I really don't care what mons need re-evaluated, but will still stick with the team. In other words, you don't have to cater. (Personally, some edits I think could be made from theorymonning include Tirtouga to B and Cobalion to A, but that's just me.) I'm a fan of basically everything Gen 5 related, after all.

I'm probably going to see if I can get up to the first Gym in the next day or two, and plan on testing Snivy's matchup with Chili both with and without using the free Panpour (yeet free HM user) just to be safe. If the six Pokemon count becomes too stressful (it won't for me), I can just rotate team members. My last point I wanted to bring up had to do with Jellicent; would you rather me go for a wild Frillish or try and get a wild evolved one? (I think both are possible, idk)

Oh I lied, sorry one last thing, should I try for neutral natures on every Pokemon? This is optional of course
Don't worry too hard about the nature. If you believe it may make a difference go ahead, but it's probably better to just go with whatever you catch in most cases.

Either works, but Frillish is easier to find. Driftveil seems to be the ideal location to surf for them, both because they're found at potentially higher levels there and because it's less backtracking needed.
 
I have a plan for the burnout and even if I didn't, I could still cover more mons for you. I really don't care what mons need re-evaluated, but will still stick with the team. In other words, you don't have to cater. (Personally, some edits I think could be made from theorymonning include Tirtouga to B and Cobalion to A, but that's just me.) I'm a fan of basically everything Gen 5 related, after all.

I'm probably going to see if I can get up to the first Gym in the next day or two, and plan on testing Snivy's matchup with Chili both with and without using the free Panpour (yeet free HM user) just to be safe. If the six Pokemon count becomes too stressful (it won't for me), I can just rotate team members. My last point I wanted to bring up had to do with Jellicent; would you rather me go for a wild Frillish or try and get a wild evolved one? (I think both are possible, idk)

Oh I lied, sorry one last thing, should I try for neutral natures on every Pokemon? This is optional of course
Cobalion isn’t A if this post is any indication.
Sure, you destroy a lot of things after it, but so does Haxorus (Axew is same location even) and that thing is B. You have to go out of the way for Cobalion too, and it has a catch rate of 3 which is a pain even with Dusk Balls from Driftveil. Feel free to test it and prove me wrong though.

Tirtouga to B could happen, but Turdterra needs to finish his testing first to ensure accuracy. Honestly, you could swap out Jellicent for Tirtouga if you want. I will say though, while Eviolite can help, it doesn’t have the best pre-Skyla showings despite technically having type advantages for both; Tirtouga takes until evolution to take off. When I used it a long time ago, I felt it was too slow even after a Shell Smash.

As for Frillish vs. Jellicent: I don’t know. Jellicent in rippling water is a 5%, from levels 5-20. Note Frillish is lvl 5-15 surfing regularly. You can go for Jellicent but I’m not sure how it would impact viability aside from mooks as you should have Jellicent evolved at 40 for Brycen anyway. Edit: Barricade is right above. Frillish are max level of 25 while Surfing in Driftveil, while Jellicent maxes at 30 at again 5%.

Neutral natures: Hard to say. You need decent IVs (generally 10-15 or above) and a non-negative nature against a mons best stats most of the time, and sometimes you’ll get very lucky like my Naughty Golett with a 31 Attack IV after going through mountains of awfully IVed ones. Post your natures/IVs in the thread if you have to, and we’ll play it by ear.
 
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Update #1: Snivy Stat Yield & Run Start

I started my playthrough officially and reset a few times for a Snivy that had around average stats but still stuff I wanted. After around ten or so resets, I got my Snivy with a Hardy Nature and the following IVs.

HP 18, Attack 18, Defense 26, SpAtk 4, SpDef 3, Speed 29

I was lowkey hoping the physical and special stats wouldn't be this polarizing, but I can make do with this. The snake learns Growth after all, so it can't be THAT bad, right? Not much else to say as I'm just going out of Nuvema Town now. I'm only going to Level 7 for N's Purrloin, and should have Update #2 out soon. Until next time.
 
Update #1: Snivy Stat Yield & Run Start

I started my playthrough officially and reset a few times for a Snivy that had around average stats but still stuff I wanted. After around ten or so resets, I got my Snivy with a Hardy Nature and the following IVs.

HP 18, Attack 18, Defense 26, SpAtk 4, SpDef 3, Speed 29

I was lowkey hoping the physical and special stats wouldn't be this polarizing, but I can make do with this. The snake learns Growth after all, so it can't be THAT bad, right? Not much else to say as I'm just going out of Nuvema Town now. I'm only going to Level 7 for N's Purrloin, and should have Update #2 out soon. Until next time.
Those IVs are fine enough.

For those saying Darmanitan isn’t broken, at level 50, I OHKOed Shauntal’s Cofagrigus with a neutral Flare Blitz without Charcoal. Granted, I am Brave natured with a 20-25 Attack IV, but remember Cofagrigus is a mon with the highest base Defense in Unova - 145 (though with only 58 HP) and it just fell to a neutral physical move. With Sheer Force gotten back from switching out, you still 2HKO Jellicent without Charcoal. I swept with Belly Drum too.
This mon is busted beyond belief.

Musharna can actually solo with Calm Mind too. I’ll provide more updates when I’m done with E4 (this post was mainly to say the above IVs were okay enough).
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Hi, 8 gym leaders logs, enjoy

Servine(18): If you are able to set up 3 Growths, you can win, otherwise you are able to barely defeat Herdier only. Its Take Down can 2HKO on rolls and can also debuff Defense with Leer. Watchog is obviously killing with this Retaliate.

matchup: I would say 50/50

Blitzle(17): I doubt the level here makes difference, as Shock Wave wouldn't be able to 2HKO any of her mons anyways. Her mons will likely OHKO or 2HKO it before it can do something, so the best you can do is paralyze it.

matchup: should be bad, but idk how it would perform on higher level.

Timburr(18): normal Low Kick is a 2HKO on Herdier after recoil, Timburr survives one Take Down even after Leer. If switched and healed, Low Kick 2HKOes and Retaliate also 2HKOes, so if you get a Leer or Hypnosis with Chesto Berry, you win this.

matchup: relies on 2 sacks, but otherwise rather good.

I know I am a bit underleveled, but with more than 2 mons before Lenora, it's not possible to reach level 20


Servine(25): Can only beat Dwebble due to not being 4x resistant to Grass moves. Everything else shreads it to pieces.

matchup: meh

Timburr(24): It can 2HKO or 3HKO Whirli, depending on rolls. Leavanny is also 3HKOed and Eviolite makes Razor Leaf deal low damage, as long as Timburr has no Screech drops. Dwebble is the easiest to defeat. At most 1 healing item will be needed, but you might need to switch out to remove the Defense debuffs.

matchup: almost positive.

Blitzle(23): Flame Charge is a 3HKO on Whirlipede and Dwebble is 3HKOed by Shock Wave. Flame Charge is a 2HKO on Leavanny. You have to switch out due to Screech and also heal it if you plan on sweeping the whole team (it can be given Eviolite here).

matchup: rather good


Servine(29): +2 Return is a 2HKO on Emolga, while its Aerial Ace is a 3HKO on Eviolite. Keep in mind that I had to use 2 Super Potions this fight. Zebstrika is 2HKOed by +2 Mega Drain. Also worth noting that an Emolga dies to combo of Mega Drain and Leaf Tornado when Servine is at +2.

matchup: rather good, the more than 1 item is bad though :/

Conk(29): I evolved immediately. +1 Rock Throw is an OHKO on Emolgas and makes their physical attacks manageable. Zebstrika is 2HKOed by +1 Rock Throw and OHKOed by +2 Wake Up Slap. You may need to use one Hyper Potion, but that's it.

matchup: pretty good

Zebstrika(29): Return is a 2HKO on everything. It can reliably take any attack.

matchup: positive.


Zebstrika(32): Return is a 2HKO on Krokorok and Palpitoad. Krokorok can be outsped even at -1, where you can finsh it off with Charcoal Flame Charge. Palpitoad is also outsped even at -1. Also, their Bulldozes are only 3HKOes. Exca wins this no matter what.

matchup: rather good.

Deerling(31): Jump Kick and Grass Knot are 2HKOes on Krokorok. Grass Knot is a 2HKO on Palpitoad. Exca is 3HKOed by Jump Kick but it sets up Hone Claws and so struggles to beat it, but it's likely possible if you heal enough.

matchup: rather good.

Btw Deerling is -Attack nature

Conk(31): Conk only has to fear Swagger. Otherwise, boosted Fighting moves OHKO everything on his team. You can set up a Bulk Up to take hits better.

matchup: pretty good, fuck Swagger

Servine(32): Leaf Blade is an OHKO on Krok and Palpi. Excadrill is 3HKOed by Leaf Blade, but you will generally outspeed and even +1 Slash doesn't threaten Servine that much.

matchup: positive.


Serperior(37): You can Coil on Swoobat and its Acrobatics will deal laughable damage. +4 Return is an OHKO on everything. No healing items were needed!

matchup: positive

Conk(37): Can set up safely 2 Bulk Ups on Swoobat. Rock Slide is an OHKO on everything at +2. Wake Up Slap is even an OHKO with +2 on Unfezant.

matchup: positive

Sawsbuck(37): Return is a 2HKO on Swoobat, but its Acrobatics deals heavy damage, you only win this if it goes for Amnesia first turn. Unfezant will generally finish it off. Swanna is 3HKOed by Horn Leech, minding the Aqua Ring. The only way for Sawsbuck to win this if it's at full health when it enters the field, as it can survive an Aerial Ace and heal up enough HP with 2 Horn Leeches to survive another.

matchup: meh

Zebstrika(37): Magnet Spark is an OHKO on everything.

matchup: yes


Basculin(40): Adapt Mystic Water Waterfall is an OHKO on Vanillish. Beartic is 2HKOed, but Swagger is nasty (for some reason I don't have Persim Berry). Anyways, Basc can eat a Slash along with a confusion hit, so it really needs just 1 turn after getting Swaggered. Cryogonal is obviously defeated. Also, all mons are outsped.

Basc has around 23-26 IVs in Attack

matchup: positive

Zebstrika(39): Magnet Spark is a 2HKO on Vanillish and 3HKO on Beartic. Beartic generally 2HKOes with Icicle Crash, so you need to exploit the AI. Cryogonal unboosted is likely 2HKOed by Spark, but +2 OHKOes.

matchup: I would say "good" at best.

Sawsbuck(39): EBelt Jump Kick OHKOes Vanillish and Cryo, although Cryo outspeeds, but only 2HKOes with Aurora Beam. Beartic is 2HKOed and you only win if it clicks Swagger and RNG is on your side.

matchup: pretty good.

Serperior(41): Serp can eat a Frost Breath from Vanillish and OHKO with +1 Leaf Blade. Beartic is 2HKOed, but its Icicle Crash doesn't kill even from half when it has +1 Defense. Cryogonal is outsped and OHKOed by +1 Leaf Blade.

matchup: pretty good, only relies on not getting Swaggered.

Conk(39): It can 2HKO with BB +2 Vanillish, and use it as setup bait, as I doubt Breath does much. Beartic will Swagger, but if you are lucky, you kill it. Cryo's Aurora Beam doesn't do much so you can OHKO it.

matchup: pretty good.


Everything is 45

Sawsbuck: Silk Scarf is a 2HKO on everything, it can eat a DTail from Druddigon, but Haxorus 2HKOes with Dtail and you will likely be in range after fighting Druddigon.

matchup: pretty good

Basculin: Mystic Water Waterfall is a 2HKO on Fraxure, which tries to DD. Druddigon is 3-4HKOed, but it can damage Basculin hardly. Haxorus is 3HKOed, but it deals massive damage with Dtail.

matchup: meh

Zebstrika: Return 2HKOes Fraxure. Druddigon is 3HKOed but deals notable damage + Rough Skin and Zebstrika will eventually fall. Haxorus also deals massive damage with Dtail and is only 3HKOed by Return.

matchup: meh

Conk: You can set up 2 Bulk Ups on Fraxure and OHKO it with BB. Drudd and Haxorus are OHKOed by +2 Hammer Arm.

matchup: positive

Serperior: You can set up on Fraxure 6 Coils. Then +6 Return OHKOes everything.

matchup: positive


I could have missed some notes, so if there's something you wanna ask, please ask so I can try to remember.

Expect E4 logs soon (and perhaps N/Ghetsis depending on how fast I get to them).
 
I´m kinda burnt out so I´m not listing a detailed overview of the E4 and N/Ghetsis, if you don't mind. Instead, I'll just give my final verdict on the pokemon I've used to finish my playthrough. I still have save states, so if anyone really wants detailed matchups for the E4, I can provide them later on when I have some time.

Simisear -> B tier, makes a case for A (like Panpour)
Pros: great availability and early evolution, good offensive stats, amazing coverage, few bad matchups, surprisingly useful support options in yawn and wisp, does NOT fall off thanks to the power of fire blast
Cons: bad early game, slight 4-slot movepool syndrome, not very bulky

Apart from the disappointing early game, Simisear has very few flaws. It is a very reliable offensive pokemon with amazing matchups overall. It even has a good niche in yawn, which helps it set up work up. It stays relevant in the late game because of the sheer power of STAB fire blast. I found Simisear to be extremely solid and reliable overall, so I would put it in A. I tested it twice now, and it hasn't disappointed me

Seismitoad -> C/B tier
Pros: good availability, amazing typing, decent coverage, good matchups
Cons: very average offensive stats, no earthquake, falls off in the late game

This one is quite hard to place for me. It was pretty good during the mid game, pretty good matchups and such, but it just felt weak after like Skyla. It often misses important KO's. I'm torn between C and B.

Archeops -> A tier
Pros: insane power and speed, great coverage, arguably the best route sweeper in the game
Cons: defeatist obviously, requires TWO backtracks to use effectively (one for Archen itself, and one for rock slide), disappointing major matchup spread

I don't think this is S worthy at all. Don't get me wrong, Archeops is great, but I think it has too many flaws to be in S. It's matchups are pretty mediocre on the whole, especially the E4 (I played around a bit, nothing too detailed). It also requires two pretty annoying backtracks. It breezes through any none-major matchup though, so I think A is still justified.

Ferrothorn -> B tier
Pros: great typing, near indestructable, curse + gyro ball is amazing, great matchups, iron barbs often secures kills
Cons: beyond slow (vulnerable to hax), some pp problems

Ferrothorn is really good. If it came a little earlier, I would put it in A, even. It's main selling point is the curse + gyro ball combo, which is just insanely powerful. It can tank its way through most major matchups with ease. The only problem other than it's low speed is that gyro ball only has 5 pp, so you probably want to keep metal claw. But since you also need a slot for curse and power whip, you won't have a slot left for coverage. Then again, you don't really need coverage most of the time since gyro ball does major damage even to pokemon who resist steel.

Stunfisk -> D tier
Pros: great bulk, interesting typing and coverage moves, great status spreader, few truly bad matchups
Cons: comes late, slow, mediocre power, terrible route sweeper (needs lots of healing support), doesn't get some moves it should have gotten (earth power, volt switch and light screen come to mind)

It wasn't a total liability like I thought it would be. It actually has some decent matchups. The problem is that it has power issues, and also speed issues. It's bulk is good, but not nearly on the same level as Ferrothorn, so the speed issues are a lot more relevent too. I just wish it came a little earlier because It would have been amazing against Elesa and Skyla.
 
I´m kinda burnt out so I´m not listing a detailed overview of the E4 and N/Ghetsis, if you don't mind. Instead, I'll just give my final verdict on the pokemon I've used to finish my playthrough. I still have save states, so if anyone really wants detailed matchups for the E4, I can provide them later on when I have some time.

Simisear -> B tier, makes a case for A (like Panpour)
Pros: great availability and early evolution, good offensive stats, amazing coverage, few bad matchups, surprisingly useful support options in yawn and wisp, does NOT fall off thanks to the power of fire blast
Cons: bad early game, slight 4-slot movepool syndrome, not very bulky

Apart from the disappointing early game, Simisear has very few flaws. It is a very reliable offensive pokemon with amazing matchups overall. It even has a good niche in yawn, which helps it set up work up. It stays relevant in the late game because of the sheer power of STAB fire blast. I found Simisear to be extremely solid and reliable overall, so I would put it in A. I tested it twice now, and it hasn't disappointed me
I’m sorry, but Pansear is probably not going in A, at least until I test it, for a few reasons:
1) The worst earlygame out of anything you can use. A tier implies a mon you can pull out and use immediately with little to no problems. It’s 12 levels but those levels are awful.

2) Requires a $70,000 TM to do things with STAB lategame, which doesn’t come until Iccirus. Said move also has accuracy issues, which is generally very bad for a mon who relies on it to kill things. Sure, you can use coverage like Rock Slide, Acrobatics and Shadow Claw but it’s doubtful with how bulky the E4 is in general. Yes, I know money is pretty easy to get with liberal use of Amulet Coin, but the similar Joltik also needs a TM to do things lategame, which is a reason it is in B. And if we are factoring in Sunny Day that’s another $50,000.

3) Putting it in A implies it is better than both Chandelure and Emboar. Chandelure may come and evolve late, and sure, Fire Blast can help lategame, but it doesn’t require it, Shadow Ball kills things fine off 145 Special Attack, notably punching holes in 2 Elite 4 members. The main targets it can hit with Fire STAB lategame (N’s Vanilluxe and Klinklang) can’t really touch it, so Fire STAB isn’t mission-critical endgame (it arguably loses to Bisharp unless you have Fire Blast). That being said, Fire Blast generally hits harder than super-effective moves from Simisear so you want it for the monkey, while Chandelure has the stats to do without it. Emboar, for all the inconsistency it suffers, comes earlier, and while it may lack in base power for a while, it and Simisear are generally equal just due to how bad Pansear’s Incinerate is, which stops oddly around the time Pignite starts falling off after Burgh. I can’t in good confidence say any monkey is better than their type-similar starter except maybe Simisage, and that’s mostly due to movepool, whereas Serperior is forced to rely on Coil. Simipour is roughly equal to Samurott due to coverage and snuffing out the competition as a speedy diverse sweeper, which is rare for most competent Water types aside from maybe Carracosta (minus the Speed).

4) Burntout you may be, but I can’t accept a rise to A without you detailing Simisear’s endgame matchups in full. How does it setup Work Up when Marshall’s Throh can drop Speed? How does it muscle through Caitlin’s bulky mons? How does it do anything against Ghetsis other than killing Bisharp? How does it beat N’s faster mons like Zoroark and Archeops? This is why logs are valuable evidence in ranking mons.

B tier is not bad at all. I can see it, even with the terrible Incinerate. But without conclusive proof I can’t see it in A.

The other nominations seem fine enough, but I wouldn’t mind seeing logs for them as well (may need one other to test Tympole as it seems like a very borderline mon, not that your experiences with it weren’t valid). I respect your opinions but I’m hesitant on raising Pansear to A as it stands for the above reasons. Have a nice day.
 
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Tenshi

We don't have to be related to relate
is a Live Chat Contributor
Wanted to write something up before I get the a chance to test mons for viability. (Maractus is a particular mon that I want to test as it is a complete wall for water types and hits hard with its solid 106 base SpA and learns great moves like Giga Drain and Petal Dance early-mid game.) I plan on replaying White a few times to get a better feel for these mons before trying to rank them at all but I thought I could leave my opinion on particularly the other water types of Unova should you not choose Oshawott.

Not counting Keldeo, you have 7 water families to choose from. Simipour, Seismitoad, Carracosta, Swanna, Basculin, Jellicent, and Alomomola. The first 2 of these are early game you can obtain them as early as Pinwheel Forest. Tirtouga being a fossil mon that you can backtrack to Nacrene and revive it before fighting Elesa. Swanna is available on Driftveil Drawbridge, and finally the last 3 mons being available as soon as you get Surf from Alder just prior to entering Twist Mountain. (*note-at time of posting, no coverage of N or Ghetsis' battles.)

Panpour water stone ->Simipour:
- pros: Best Monkey available. Gets Scald at level 22 and able to evolve right then. Fastest water type available(being slightly slower than Keldeo). Mixed stats letting it use its diverse moveset effectively. Found early, able to get before the first gym if you choose Snivy. Water Stone is available before the 3rd gym badge.
- cons: Reliant on Work Up(Nasty Plot requires a level 42 Purrloin/50 Liepard for the eggmove). It just attacks, no room for supporting other team members outside of burning with scald.
- overview: Simipour is a serious threat and should be heavily considered when choosing a water type. It sports a very diverse moveset including Low Sweep, Blizzard(which is helped given its high speed and decently good SpA), Rock Slide, and Acrobatics which can deal serious damage to grass types like Sawsbuck and Lilligant. With Low Sweep, Shadow Claw, and Acrobatics it's able to hit all of the E4 super effectively though it might not have the raw power to ohko most of their mons unless boosted. Only thing to note about its availability is that you won't be able to obtain it until after beating Lenora should you choose Tepig or Oshawott. Simipour is very adaptable and can really use most items effectively, or no item at all should you be running Acrobatics.
Tympole 25-> Palpitoad 36-> Seismitoad:
- pros: Found before 2nd badge. Water/Ground when evolved. Good special moveset that can be buffed by using Rain Dance. Tympole is a faster mon early-game(tied with Panpour and only 5 mons outspeed at the point it's caught) and gets a good STAB in Bubblebeam that can help it before it evolves. Gets a varied moveset including Drain punch, Sludge Bomb/Poison Jab, and Rock Slide.
- cons: Only learns Mud Shot through level up leaving Bulldoze and Dig for TMs and Earth Power as an egg move. Almost completely special movepool offsetting its better Attack stat. Poison Touch having little application due to small pool of contact moves.
- overview: Tympole is a strange thing to unpack...The most obvious valuable thing to see here is its great water/ground type giving it a single weakness to grass. Its level up moveset in general is something left to be desired, getting good moves like Muddy Water at a fair 28, 3 levels after Tympole evolves. From personal experience as I'm using it on my current White team, it starts to struggle in the area of level 20-27 since it has to rely on Bubblebeam up to that point. Unfortunately it has unremarkable gym matchups barring Clay, Elesa's emolgas can simply out damage Palpitoad with Aerial Ace though Zebstrika is fairly defenseless against it. Another flaw in Seismitoad is that it's unable to access Water absorb that would give it a much needed immunity and versatility due to the healing. I think Swift Swim is the better of its two abilities due to his limited moveset not giving him a lot of contact moves at all. Swift Swim is further benefited by it learning Rain Dance at level 33 which gives it a needed boost in power that its 85 SpA is leaving desired. Mystic Water and the Damp Rock are the two items I'd recommend using on it as it wants as powerful of moves as possible, especially wants to be in the rain if it's Swift Swim.
Tirtouga 37->Carracosta:
- pros: Two good abilities in Solid Rock and Sturdy that both compliment its physical bulk. Access to Aqua Jet and Shell Smash, Good coverage(water/rock/ground/dark). Can deal with one of Elesa's Emolgas effectively
- cons: Very slow even after Shell Smash, Typing has 4 common weaknesses including a 4x weak to grass, Tirtouga starts to drag before it evolves fairly late, A lot of its good moves aren't available until it hits the 40s, It's not Archen(since you have to choose between the two)
- overview: Tirtouga is kinda baggage until it evolves. It has great physical bulk that can be coupled with Eviolite and Solid Rock to make it take moves like Razor Leaf with ease but you can also choose Sturdy for protection against any decent special attack that would still probably OHKO it even with Eviolite. it's hard to use to begin with though it certainly starts to pick up later on, getting Shell Smash at level 38 IF you don't evolve it at 37, prior to that it has to rely on Aqua Jet and Rock Tomb for decent damage so it's a rough road getting to that point. Sturdy guarantees a shell smash so you can make great use of that late-game as you can get multiple shell smashes up if you're careful and can easily sweep teams after that, including Shauntal(worry about Jellicent's immunity to water and Cofagrigus' high physical defense and Mummy) and Caitlin. I don't have a preference for hold item here, I generally go for Mystic Water so Aqua Jet is as strong as I can make it.
Ducklett 35->Swanna:
- pros: Easy to obtain. Featherdance is a really good attack drop move that allows Ducklett to live a turn. Only gen 5 mon that has Fly and Surf.
- cons: Poor stats. Lackluster moves until very late-game. Fairly useless abilities. Awful gym matchups.
- overview: Ducklett is a mid-game mon with bad stats, unremarkable moves, useless abilities, and a late evolution. That being said there are some good aspects about it, and by some I mean two. It gets Brave Bird at level 47 and Hurricane at level 55...besides that you got an unremarkable team member that doesn't do much besides using Surf and Featherdance. I recommend using it for Fly/Surf and leaving it at that unless you really like the thing, it's not even good against Clay due to Excadrill easily koing it with Rock Slide.
Basculin:
- pros: Adaptability(do I need to list anymore pros than that). Very common. Learns its great moves almost right off the bat. Waterfall becomes available when it does. Can 1-2hko anything that doesn't resist water.
- cons: Reckless and Rock Head only being good for Double Edge(doesn't learn Head Smash in gen 5). Only can be obtained after beating Skyla. Only has Water/Normal moves + Crunch.
- overview: Basculin is your go-to juggernaut. It hits fast and extremely hard, learning Aqua Tail at level 28(Skyla's ace mon is lv35* for reference). Choosing to lose a little bit of power you can opt out for Waterfall which adds a chance to Flinch on top of Adaptability's boosted 80 bp move. Basculin is a bit of a one-trick pony in that it uses waterfall and scald/surf and everything that doesn't resist it faints, simple is as simple does. There's really no reason to use any item on it besides a mystic water or a choice band(should you want to grind the Subway) as it doesn't use anything else to warrant a different item. It is moderately useful against the E4, hitting pretty much every mon there bar Shauntal's Cofagrigus and Jellicent(the latter near walls it completely) for high damage with water STAB.
Frillish 40->Jellicent:
- pros: Hard to KO. Water Absorb lets it potentially heal off more damage. Learns Recover early and any move you'd want on it is generally a TM before Surf is available. Gets Ghost/Water/Grass/Poison coverage as well as WoW/Toxic + Hex. Completely immune to Audino so grinding is easy should you catch a low-level one.
- cons: Only can be obtained after beating Skyla. limited moveset if you use HMs with it. Can't survive against physical attacking dark types. Won't evolve until after fighting Brycen without Audino grinding.
- overview: Jellicent is my personal favorite pick for a gen 5 water type. It has amazing special bulk that allows it to easily fight back any special attack even if it's super effective(with help it can take down Shauntal fairly easily bar Golurk*<might outspeed and ohko with surf/kill if it uses curse> and her own Jellicent). access to WoW helps offset its weak defense but you have to be mindful against some opponents like Marshal's Throh who would have a Guts powered Payback to fire back at it. The name of the game is survival and Jellicent does that amazing(ironic considering it's a ghost type) and it has the rare pleasure of being an offensive threat on top of its great bulk and status throwing.
Alomomola:
- pros: Learns Wish(37) and healing wish(at 57....). Has good survivability due to huge HP stat. Can casts screens.
- cons: Can't do anything except support stall. 40 SpA leaves it with Aqua Jet, waterfall and Wake up Slap for its 75 attack stat. Pain Split is an egg move. Can't get Regenerator in BW. Can't take special hits. Only can be obtained after beating Skyla.
- overview: Alomomola is a fairly rare mon appearing in water bubbles in route 4, 17, 18, driftveil city, and the P2 Lab. It's...a stall mon with great HP and little else, not exactly the best one at that as its lack of offensive stats keep it from doing anything of substance outside of healing its partners with Wish. I don't personally see anyone using this to any good extent unless they're willing to do a weird niche like grinding 84 BP in the Battle Subway for Psych Up + Swagger just to give it a usable attack to work with.

Hopefully this can share something valuable for these mons and open them up for further discussion.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
E4 logs enjoy

So I caught a Swarm Durant, Attack IVs are average and acceptable, +Attack nature. It was able to clean Route 10 and some of Victory Road relatively easy.

Everything is 49

Serperior: It can set up Subs and Coil on Cofagrigus and try to 2HKO with +2 Leaf Blade. However, Chandelure will finish it off, if it doesn't have a Sub up then. +1 Leaf Blade will OHKO the rest of her mons.

matchup: pretty good

Durant: Blackglasses Crunch is a 2HKO on everything, however, only Cofagrigus can be beaten reliably. Chandy must miss Fire Blast in order to lose, Jellicent's Surf deals lots of damage and Golurk can finish it off with EQ (though Durant wins if it Curses).

matchup: meh

Sawsbuck: It can 3HKO Cofagrigus, but must deal with burns if it gets one. Chandy always wins. Golurk and Jellicent can be 2HKOed with Horn Leech, though Golurk will generally Curse itself and Jellicent can't do much.

matchup: rather good

Zebstrika: Magnet Wild Charge is a 2HKO on Cofagrigus and OHKO on Jellicent. Golurk wins this no matter what, Chandy generally kills it, as Zebstrika is likely weakened.

matchup: 50/50

Conk: Cofagrigus wins due to Psychic 2HKOing and unboosted Payback not 2HKOing. Golurk dies to Conk but it sets Curse. If Conk is too weakened, it can be killed off by Psychic. Jellicent can do similar thing with special moves.

matchup: horrible

Basculin: Cof removes Adapt, so no. Golurk and Chandy are both outsped and OHKOed by Waterfall. Jellicent is 2HKOed by Crunch and can eat an Energy Ball, so you have to worry only about Cursed Body first turn

matchup: pretty good


Basc is level 50, everything else is 49

Basculin: Mystic Water Waterfall is 2HKO on Scrafty. Krook is OHKOed even if Attack is debuffed. Bisharp would be 2HKOed if you are unboosted, but you can't take Night Slash easily. Can eat a non-crit Night Slash from Liepard and OHKO with Waterfall (with no Attack debuffs).

matchup: rather good.

Serperior: It can set up Coil on Scrafty, although it has to be careful around Jab poisons or Sand-Attacks, but +2 Leaf Bladae is a 2HKO. Liepard and Krook are OHKOed by Leaf Blade. Bisharp is 3HKOed by X-Scissor but it takes some time for it to hit Serp with buffed Defense. It needed 2 healing items though.

matchup: good-rather good

Sawsbuck: It can 2HKO Scrafty with EBelt Jump Kick, but be careful of Sand-Attack or any attack in general. Bisharp is OHKOed by Jump Kick and Liepard is OHKOed by Megahorn. If you are healthy enough, you can also beat Krook with Horn Leech, but if you are not, then you are done.

matchup: good, because it relies on faulty accuracy and Jump Kick in the same time.

Zebstrika: Scrafty is 3HKOed by Magnet Wild Charge, while it also 2HKOes minding the recoil, so don't hope to win this. Krookodile is obvious loss here. Liepard is 2HKOed by Magnet Wild Charge. Bisharp is 3HKOed and it 2HKOes with recoil, so loss here.

matchup: bad

Durant: Scrafty is 3HKOed by Silverpowder X-Scissor, but Scrafty can't 2HKO so you win. If you are above yellow-green zone, you can survive an EQ from Krook and 2HKO (or OHKO if Swarm) with X-Scissor (despite being -1). You may need to heal against Liepard, but -1 X-Scissor nonethless is an OHKO. Bisharp is 3HKOed but it doesn't have powerful coverage.

matchup: pretty good.

Conk: Scrafty is OHKOed by +1 BB, but Sand-Attack is so annoying. +1 BB OHKOes Liepard and Bisharp, and Krook is OHKOed by unboosted Hammer Arm.

matchup: pretty good, fuck Sand-Attack

also js Conk reached 51 with Lucky Egg


Conk(51): Only Sigilyph can be defeated, since Conk can survive a Psychic and kill with boosted Payback. Everything else is 2HKOed and also 2HKOes or OHKOes.

matchup: bad

Basculin(50): Mystic Water Waterfall is a 2HKO on Reuni, but you only win this if Thunder misses or it gets flinched. Goth is 2HKOed and Basc can take a Tbolt from full only. Musharna is 2HKO and Basc can eat anything from full. Sigilyph is the same.

matchup: iffy, too much "at full"

Serperior(49): Reuni is 3HKOed by Leaf Blade and Serp is 2HKOed by Psychic. Sigilyph takes laughable damage from Return and hits back with Ice Beam or Air Slash. Goth can be beaten if you set up a Coil from full and it goes for CM, as +1 Blade is 2HKO. Musharna is similar situation, +1 Blade is 2HKO, but you only win this if you are at full (Psychic is a 3HKO).

matchup: rather bad, too situational

Sawsbuck(49): Megahorn + Return kills Reuni, which can OHKO or 2HKO on rolls with Focus Blast. Sigilyph laughs at it. Both Musharna and Goth are 2HKOed by Megahorn, with Goth being easy bait if it tries to spam CM, as it is outsped.

matchup: rather good

Zebstrika(49): Zebstrika 2HKOes Reuni with Magnet Wild Charge, but kills itself with the 2nd one after recoil. Sigilyph is obviously defeated. Goth is 2HKOed on rolls. Musharna is also 2HKOed and Zebstrika can eat a Psychic from full.

matchup: good

Durant(49): Silverpowder X-Scissor is an OHKO on Reuniclus. Goth is also OHKOed if Swarm is activated. Sigilyph is 2HKOed by Crunch and Durant can eat any attack. Musharna is 2HKOed. Around 1 healing item was used.

matchup: pretty good/ positive.


Durant(50): 2 Metal Coat Iron Heads and 1 Metal Claw will KO Throh, which doesn't do much in return. Sawk is 2HKOed by Iron Head, but you need to heal up to win this. Conk is 3HKOed and deals heavy damage with Hammer Arm. Mienshao is 2HKOed but its Jump Kick will KO if you are too weakened, but at least Durant outsped.

matchup: meh

Sawsbuck(49): Crushed by every Fighting move, can't even 2HKO bulky things.

matchup: horrible

Basculin(50): Basculin 2HKOes Throh and Sawk with MW Waterfall, Sawk can be beaten even if Speed is at -1 since Aqua Jet can finish it off. Conk is 2HKOed but can only be defeated if it fliches or Hammer Arm misses. Mienshao will finish it off as you are too weakened at this point.

matchup: good

Zebstrika(49): Throh is 3HKOed by Magnet WC and Throh 2HKOes. Return is a 2HKO on Sawk and can eat an attack. Conk is 2-3HKOed on rolls and hits hardly. Mienshao is 2HKOed by Return + Wild Charge, but you need to be at full to win this.

matchup: meh

Conk(51): You can set up 2 Bulk Ups on Throh, its Storm Throws only put in yellow after 2 hits, you can equp it with Rocky Helmet to punish it. +2 BB is an OHKO on everything after 1 RH damage. You might need to heal up once though

matchup: pretty good

Serperior(49): Coil on Throh, equip with RHelmet in case it Storm Throws. +4 Leaf Blade is a 2HKO. Overall, you might need only 1 healing item for when Stone Edge hits, otherwise just spam Leaf Blade to death, they aren't doing much to you.

matchup: positive.


Also Tenshi Nagae small correction, but Skyla's ace is level 35, not level 36, but it hardly makes difference. Also Basculin can beat Jellicent, but mine had 23 Attack IVs and +Atk nature so idk, depends on the Basc itself.
 
Wanted to write something up before I get the a chance to test mons for viability. (Maractus is a particular mon that I want to test as it is a complete wall for water types and hits hard with its solid 106 base SpA and learns great moves like Giga Drain and Petal Dance early-mid game.) I plan on replaying White a few times to get a better feel for these mons before trying to rank them at all but I thought I could leave my opinion on particularly the other water types of Unova should you not choose Oshawott.

Not counting Keldeo, you have 7 water families to choose from. Simipour, Seismitoad, Carracosta, Swanna, Basculin, Jellicent, and Alomomola. The first 2 of these are early game you can obtain them as early as Pinwheel Forest. Tirtouga being a fossil mon that you can backtrack to Nacrene and revive it before fighting Elesa. Swanna is available on Driftveil Drawbridge, and finally the last 3 mons being available as soon as you get Surf from Alder just prior to entering Twist Mountain. (*note-at time of posting, no coverage of N or Ghetsis' battles.)

Panpour water stone ->Simipour:
- pros: Best Monkey available. Gets Scald at level 22 and able to evolve right then. Fastest water type available(being slightly slower than Keldeo). Mixed stats letting it use its diverse moveset effectively. Found early, able to get before the first gym if you choose Snivy. Water Stone is available before the 3rd gym badge.
- cons: Reliant on Work Up(Nasty Plot requires a level 42 Purrloin/50 Liepard for the eggmove). It just attacks, no room for supporting other team members outside of burning with scald.
- overview: Simipour is a serious threat and should be heavily considered when choosing a water type. It sports a very diverse moveset including Low Sweep, Blizzard(which is helped given its high speed and decently good SpA), Rock Slide, and Acrobatics which can deal serious damage to grass types like Sawsbuck and Lilligant. With Low Sweep, Shadow Claw, and Acrobatics it's able to hit all of the E4 super effectively though it might not have the raw power to ohko most of their mons unless boosted. Only thing to note about its availability is that you won't be able to obtain it until after beating Lenora should you choose Tepig or Oshawott. Simipour is very adaptable and can really use most items effectively, or no item at all should you be running Acrobatics.
Tympole 25-> Palpitoad 36-> Seismitoad:
- pros: Found before 2nd badge. Water/Ground when evolved. Good special moveset that can be buffed by using Rain Dance. Tympole is a faster mon early-game(tied with Panpour and only 5 mons outspeed at the point it's caught) and gets a good STAB in Bubblebeam that can help it before it evolves. Gets a varied moveset including Drain punch, Sludge Bomb/Poison Jab, and Rock Slide.
- cons: Only learns Mud Shot through level up leaving Bulldoze and Dig for TMs and Earth Power as an egg move. Almost completely special movepool offsetting its better Attack stat. Poison Touch having little application due to small pool of contact moves.
- overview: Tympole is a strange thing to unpack...The most obvious valuable thing to see here is its great water/ground type giving it a single weakness to grass. Its level up moveset in general is something left to be desired, getting good moves like Muddy Water at a fair 28, 3 levels after Tympole evolves. From personal experience as I'm using it on my current White team, it starts to struggle in the area of level 20-27 since it has to rely on Bubblebeam up to that point. Unfortunately it has unremarkable gym matchups barring Clay, Elesa's emolgas can simply out damage Palpitoad with Aerial Ace though Zebstrika is fairly defenseless against it. Another flaw in Seismitoad is that it's unable to access Water absorb that would give it a much needed immunity and versatility due to the healing. I think Swift Swim is the better of its two abilities due to his limited moveset not giving him a lot of contact moves at all. Swift Swim is further benefited by it learning Rain Dance at level 33 which gives it a needed boost in power that its 85 SpA is leaving desired. Mystic Water and the Damp Rock are the two items I'd recommend using on it as it wants as powerful of moves as possible, especially wants to be in the rain if it's Swift Swim.
Tirtouga 37->Carracosta:
- pros: Two good abilities in Solid Rock and Sturdy that both compliment its physical bulk. Access to Aqua Jet and Shell Smash, Good coverage(water/rock/ground/dark). Can deal with one of Elesa's Emolgas effectively
- cons: Very slow even after Shell Smash, Typing has 4 common weaknesses including a 4x weak to grass, Tirtouga starts to drag before it evolves fairly late, A lot of its good moves aren't available until it hits the 40s, It's not Archen(since you have to choose between the two)
- overview: Tirtouga is kinda baggage until it evolves. It has great physical bulk that can be coupled with Eviolite and Solid Rock to make it take moves like Razor Leaf with ease but you can also choose Sturdy for protection against any decent special attack that would still probably OHKO it even with Eviolite. it's hard to use to begin with though it certainly starts to pick up later on, getting Shell Smash at level 38 IF you don't evolve it at 37, prior to that it has to rely on Aqua Jet and Rock Tomb for decent damage so it's a rough road getting to that point. Sturdy guarantees a shell smash so you can make great use of that late-game as you can get multiple shell smashes up if you're careful and can easily sweep teams after that, including Shauntal(worry about Jellicent's immunity to water and Cofagrigus' high physical defense and Mummy) and Caitlin. I don't have a preference for hold item here, I generally go for Mystic Water so Aqua Jet is as strong as I can make it.
Ducklett 35->Swanna:
- pros: Easy to obtain. Featherdance is a really good attack drop move that allows Ducklett to live a turn. Only gen 5 mon that has Fly and Surf.
- cons: Poor stats. Lackluster moves until very late-game. Fairly useless abilities. Awful gym matchups.
- overview: Ducklett is a mid-game mon with bad stats, unremarkable moves, useless abilities, and a late evolution. That being said there are some good aspects about it, and by some I mean two. It gets Brave Bird at level 47 and Hurricane at level 55...besides that you got an unremarkable team member that doesn't do much besides using Surf and Featherdance. I recommend using it for Fly/Surf and leaving it at that unless you really like the thing, it's not even good against Clay due to Excadrill easily koing it with Rock Slide.
Basculin:
- pros: Adaptability(do I need to list anymore pros than that). Very common. Learns its great moves almost right off the bat. Waterfall becomes available when it does. Can 1-2hko anything that doesn't resist water.
- cons: Reckless and Rock Head only being good for Double Edge(doesn't learn Head Smash in gen 5). Only can be obtained after beating Skyla. Only has Water/Normal moves + Crunch.
- overview: Basculin is your go-to juggernaut. It hits fast and extremely hard, learning Aqua Tail at level 28(Skyla's ace mon is lv36 for reference). Choosing to lose a little bit of power you can opt out for Waterfall which adds a chance to Flinch on top of Adaptability's boosted 80 bp move. Basculin is a bit of a one-trick pony in that it uses waterfall and scald/surf and everything that doesn't resist it faints, simple is as simple does. There's really no reason to use any item on it besides a mystic water or a choice band(should you want to grind the Subway) as it doesn't use anything else to warrant a different item. It is moderately useful against the E4, hitting pretty much every mon there bar Shauntal's Cofagrigus and Jellicent(the latter near walls it completely) for high damage with water STAB.
Frillish 40->Jellicent:
- pros: Hard to KO. Water Absorb lets it potentially heal off more damage. Learns Recover early and any move you'd want on it is generally a TM before Surf is available. Gets Ghost/Water/Grass/Poison coverage as well as WoW/Toxic + Hex. Completely immune to Audino so grinding is easy should you catch a low-level one.
- cons: Only can be obtained after beating Skyla. limited moveset if you use HMs with it. Can't survive against physical attacking dark types. Won't evolve until after fighting Brycen without Audino grinding.
- overview: Jellicent is my personal favorite pick for a gen 5 water type. It has amazing special bulk that allows it to easily fight back any special attack even if it's super effective(with help it can take down Shauntal fairly easily bar Golurk and her own Jellicent). access to WoW helps offset its weak defense but you have to be mindful against some opponents like Marshal's Throh who would have a Guts powered Payback to fire back at it. The name of the game is survival and Jellicent does that amazing(ironic considering it's a ghost type) and it has the rare pleasure of being an offensive threat on top of its great bulk and status throwing.
Alomomola:
- pros: Learns Wish(37) and healing wish(at 57....). Has good survivability due to huge HP stat. Can casts screens.
- cons: Can't do anything except support stall. 40 SpA leaves it with Aqua Jet, waterfall and Wake up Slap for its 75 attack stat. Pain Split is an egg move. Can't get Regenerator in BW. Can't take special hits. Only can be obtained after beating Skyla.
- overview: Alomomola is a fairly rare mon appearing in water bubbles in route 4, 17, 18, driftveil city, and the P2 Lab. It's...a stall mon with great HP and little else, not exactly the best one at that as its lack of offensive stats keep it from doing anything of substance outside of healing its partners with Wish. I don't personally see anyone using this to any good extent unless they're willing to do a weird niche like grinding 84 BP in the Battle Subway for Psych Up + Swagger just to give it a usable attack to work with.

Hopefully this can share something valuable for these mons and open them up for further discussion.
I'm testing Maractus and it's pretty terrible. It has terrible match ups in when you get it and it will stay that way for a good majority. Elese can simply Flame Charge it and Emolga resists your STAB. Clay can pretty much manhandle you with Excadrill (though it does take on Krok and Palp easily enough). Skyla just blows you away. Brycen can freeze your butt off and Drayden can just lay the smackdown.

Moving on, I will be FINALLY finishing my testing tomorrow. RL came in and started dictating my free time so I haven't had really any time to sit down and do testing. If you followed my posts, Simisear is kind of in a weird place rn with me and I will try to nom it correctly with what I have. I am NOT retesting that atrocity that is that monkey. NO ONE should have to suffer 12 levels and have their STAB WEAKER than Cut. After this testing, I will be promptly testing another team. If it is still up, I will change my planned team that I had.

Throh (White Version Testing. I believe it's been placed. But Ryota stated that he would like another test.)
Scraggy (Moxie variant. I believe this is one that needs to be tested?)
Sandile (Moxie most likely. Intimidate is also good. Will probably require two tests for each ability? Up to Tier Leader)
Snivy? (I saw this reopened for testing. Originally was Tepig but that's been placed and I agree with such placement. If Tepig needs another test. Let me know and I will switch them around.)
Anything else needed testing, let me know. I got 2 slots open.
 
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I'm testing Maractus and it's pretty terrible. It has terrible match ups in when you get it and it will stay that way for a good majority. Elese can simply Flame Charge it and Emolga resists your STAB. Clay can pretty much manhandle you with Excadrill (though it does take on Krok and Palp easily enough). Skyla just blows you away. Brycen can freeze your butt off and Drayden can just lay the smackdown.

Moving on, I will be FINALLY finishing my testing tomorrow. RL came in and started dictating my free time so I haven't had really any time to sit down and do testing. If you followed my posts, Simisear is kind of in a weird place rn with me and I will try to nom it correctly with what I have. I am NOT retesting that atrocity that is that monkey. NO ONE should have to suffer 12 levels and have their STAB WEAKER than Cut. After this testing, I will be promptly testing another team. If it is still up, I will change my planned team that I had.

Throh (White Version Testing. I believe it's been placed. But Ryota stated that he would like another test.)
Scraggy (Moxie variant. I believe this is one that needs to be tested?)
Sandile (Moxie most likely. Intimidate is also good. Will probably require two tests for each ability? Up to Tier Leader)
Snivy? (I saw this reopened for testing. Originally was Tepig but that's been placed and I agree with such placement. If Tepig needs another test. Let me know and I will switch them around.)
Anything else needed testing, let me know. I got 2 slots open.
Throh, Sigilyph, Snivy, Sandile, Scraggy and Jellicent should be sufficent to test.

Working on Elite 4 at the moment otherwise. Gigalith surprisingly soloed Grimsley with two items; the mon isn’t that bad endgame so far but it can have some trouble killing things without Hard Stone (which is out of the way in Mistralton Cave B2F) and you kinda need the power behind Stone Edge (Scope Lens can help it crit 25% of the time too).

And the Darmanitan OHKO on Cofagrigus I mentioned without Charcoal above can actually can be missed; must need a high range. I apologize for that potentially erroneous info; though IIRC Ryota OHKOed with Flare Blitz.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Final logs for this run



Serperior(50): You can set up 6 Coils on Zekrom (however, Reshiram obviously prevents this) and 2HKO with +6 Return. Then Klinklang is 2HKOed by Leaf Blade, and everything else is outsped and OHKOed by Leaf Blade.

matchup: positive in Black, ??? in White (probs mediocre due to no set up opportunities other than Carracosta).

Basculin(50): Zekrom kills it (fun fact, N's Dragons always use the fusion move first turn). Vani is 2HKOed by MW Waterfall, and can eat an attack from it. Klinklang is 2HKOed, but you need to be at full to eat a Thunderbolt. Archeops can be put in Defeatist range with Aqua Jet and turn Stone Edge in 2HKO. Carracosta is 3HKOed, but Stone Edge deals a lot.

matchup: needs to be at full in lots of cases, so "good"

Sawsbuck(50): Jump Kick is only a 2HKO on Vanilluxe, and Blizzard can OHKO if it hits. Jump Kick 2HKOes Klinklang, but you lose if Jump Kick misses at any point. Zoroark OHKOes with Focus Blast, but crit Megahorn is an OHKO (I couldn't really get it to miss). Beats Carracosta for obvious reasons. Zekrom defeats this due to Return being weak. Archeops destroys with Acrobatics.

matchup: rather bad

Zebstrika(49): Can 2HKO Vani with Magnet Wild Charge, you win this flawlessly if it goes for Hail. Zekrom can only be paralyzed, at most, otherwise this thing smashes it lol. Klinklang is only 3HKOed by Wild Charge, but with a -2 SpD, you get OHKOed by Hyper Beam. Carracosta's Stone Edge will OHKO after recoil. Outspeeds and OHKOes Archeops with Wild Charge. 2HKOes Zoroark with WC and survives a Focus Blast.

matchup: meh, too much recoil if you beat 3/6

Conk(51): Can eat only one Blizzard but OHKOes with BB. Klinklang can finish it off with Flash Cannon, but is also OHKOed by BB. OHKOes Zoroark, but needs to be healthy to eat strong attacks. 3HKOed by Carracosta's Waterfall at full and 2HKOes with BB. Archeops generally destroys with Acrobatics.

You can set up on Zekrom and OHKO with +5 BB and later Klinklang, but the aforementioned issue with Vani will put an end to this.

matchup: "good", reliant on items.

Durant(50): OHKOes Vanilluxe with Metal Coat Iron Head, Zoroark with X-Scissor. Klinklang 2HKOes with Tbolt, the only thing you can do is flinchspam. Zekrom 2HKOes with Fusion Bolt. Carracosta eats multiple attacks and 2HKOes with Waterfall. Archeops is OHKOed by Iron Head.

matchup: 50/50


Serp is 51, Zeb is 50, everything else is the same level.

Serperior: You need +3 Attack just to 2HKO Cofagrigus. Hydreigon is also 2HKOed by Return, but it will kill you in return. Serp can then resetup on Bouffalant, who will take constant damage from RHelmet and recoil. You have to heal up once though. Seismitoad is then OHKOed. Eelektross can survive a +3 Leaf Blade and kill it back with Flamethrower, if weakened. Bisharp, you can massively set up, but be careful of Metal Burst, if Bisharp survives an attack.

matchup: meh, constant resetups + lots of items

Conk: I doubt Payback here would do much, but nonethless Toxic is gonna wear it out. Hydreigon is OHKOed only by Hammer Arm, on rolls. Should it miss, Hydreigon kills it, as DPulse is 2HKO. You can set up on Bouffalant and OHKO it with +2 BB. Eelektross and Seismitoad are OHKOed by Hammer Arm as well. Bisharp is obvious defeat. This fight requires numerous amount of healing items, though.

matchup: good, too many items.

Basculin: Loses Adaptability upon contact against Coffin, so no. Hydreigon also beats this effortlessly. Seismitoad is 2HKOed by MW Waterfall. It can also abuse Seismitoad's rain. Bouffalant OHKOes with Head Charge, though. Eelektross wins this obviously. Bisharp is 2HKOed and can't kill Basculin in return.

matchup: eh

Sawsbuck: Cofagrigus stalls this to death. Hydreigon OHKOes with Focus Blast. Bouff can OHKO on rolls with HCharge. Jump Kick + Return is an OHKO + recoil is an OHKO, however. Eelektross smashes with Acrobatics. Bisharp is OHKOed by Jump Kick. Seismitoad is OHKOed by Horn Leech.

matchup: 1/3

Zebstrika: Stalled to death by Coffin. Hydreigon can be paralyzed, but it 2HKOes with its attacks. Seismitoad wins this obviously. Bouff OHKOes with Wild Charge. Eelektross muscles through this. Bisharp is 2HKOed by Wild Charge.

matchup: horrible

Durant: 3HKOes Bouff with Metal Coat, but Wild Charge is generally a 2HKO. Hydreigon kills with Fire Blast. Eelektross kills with Flamethrower. Cofagrigus can be beaten, as it can't do much. Seismitoad is 3HKOed by X-Scissor, but OHKOes with rain Muddy Water. Durant and Bisharp 3HKO each other with X-Scissor and Stone Edge from full, just hope you don't get critted on.

matchup: meh


After evaluating both's performance and seeing as how they perform similarly, I think it's fair for both of them to stay A. Due to their low speed, they have harder time to set up reliably, as they have to constantly rely on healing items to not get overwhelmed while aiming for more boosts. Sawk doesn't have this problem. Furthermore, Throh and Conk have shaky powerful STABs later, in the form of Superpower (being less spamable than, say, Sawk's CC) and Conk has Hammer Arm, which is prone to missing and makes it a liability against bulky and powerful threats. However, both of them are solid choice for pre-E4 matchups and have their moments against the E4, which is why I think A is perfect for them


Snivy:
Snivy is too reliant on Coil. While this might not be bad if it needed 1 or 2 boosts, the problem is that Serperior requires absurd amount (say +6) in order for it to reliably sweep, e.g. against Ghetsis and his mons, you need +3 only to 2HKO his Cof and Hyd. Taking time to set up 6 Coils not only may require unwanted item support, but also increases the chances Serperior dies to a random crit, while being a sitting duck. Not to mention that its E4 matchup is far from perfect either, having really bad time against Caitlin, relying on some luck against Grimsley due to accuracy drops and etc. Also, it has much harder time against N in White and Ghetsis in general. Finally, Snivy has a rough start in the journey, having a bad matchup against both Lenora and Burgh, and requiring 2 Super Potions against Elesa. Thus, I think Snivy fits much more in C, due to being a sitting duck while trying to get needed power, having a rough start and a shaky end-game matchup.

Deerling:
As for Deerling, this thing comes at Drifvetil. While not that bad, it does kind of come not so early. Deerling and Sawsbuck are both mediocre in terms of sheer power, relying on super effective matchups to hit moderate power (and having Jump Kick miss is bad). Deerling does not perform on level "excellent" against any Gym and it has a really shaky matchup against the E4 and N/Ghetsis. I am not sure why it is B rank, when Deerling is not on the same level as the other B ranks, that clearly have better time beating major fights with sheer power, coming early-game, or simply having a great set up move.

As for which one I'd push on harder, I would push Deerling for C more, because that thing is not for B, in my eyes. I can live with Snivy being B, though I think C is much more appropriate given the cons I have listed.


Durant was put in C due to having a strong end-game matchup. Well, my run didn't really experience this. Durant only had any form of "good" matchup against Caitlin and Grimsley, with Grimsley being a little bit shaky. Couple it with the fact it comes so late, has no ways of boosting its power, and the fact that only Swarm or Hustle define its C ranking, meaning I have to hunt specifically for that ability without knowing what the Durant I am facing has, I think Durant is much more appropriate for D; it is not completely useless, but can only be used for certain tasks and nothing else.


Adapt Basculin is great, due to just destroying many things with powerful Waterfall or Aqua Tail. Obtaining one is fairly easy as well, and is easy to train, as Route 7 generally has rain, increasing its power significally. While it has some shaky matchups, Basculin's pre end-game arrival (only being later than Deerling with 2 badges), ability to use Waterfall and Surf for overworld, as well as having a traded one available with Reckless if you want to obtain one earlier, means that Basculin can stay in C, because it does prove more than just a niche or mon designed to do some things and later be garbage in everything else.

Blitzle's thing for staying in C and not, say, rise to B, is that its period as Blitzle is horrible. It can't beat anything that has remote bulk, such as Munna, and is too matchup reliant. However, once it becomes a Zebstrika, it becomes really powerful for mid-game, being able to beat 2/3 of Clay's mons despite the type disadvantage. However, Zebstrika then falls off starting Brycen, which is why I think C is fine for it. D isn't, because Zebstrika is a great mon to have for mid-game, due to its high Speed and support it brings, as it can outspeed even some end-game mons, such as Hydreigon, to paralyze them with Thunder Wave, as well as making Pokemon easier to catch due to Twave.


Do you guys want me to test anything in my next run? I have been thinking about Cobalion, I could also test Audino. I am willing to test anything, remember. Maybe Tympole as well, seeing as it's debatable atm what is its ranking. Idk, just request and I do it.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
So I started a new run with the following mons: Pansear (this thing is closely debatable as Darumaka for A or S rank), Tympole, Venipede, Sigilyph, and Elgyem

I was able to finish the run before anyone else posted in here so I have all the logs necessary. All IVs were acceptable, but I don't really remember how much they were.

Pansear(19): Pansear can't do much against Lenora, as it's too weak and frail. I think everyone knows this so. You can put Herdier to sleep with Yawn, though.

matchup: bad

Tympole(19): Same situation as Pansear. It can try to confuse with Supersonic and can also slow them down with Mud Shot, but that's it.

matchup: bad


Simisear(24): Charcoal Flame Burst outspeeds and OHKOes everything.

matchup: yes

Palpitoad(25): 3HKOes Whirlipede with Bubblebeam and OHKOes Dwebble with Bubblebeam. Leavanny beats this due to Razor Leaf, at most you can try to spam Uproar and hope for god-like hax.

matchup: pretty good

Whirlipede(23): Whirlipede can use a combo of Iron Defense to make itself untouchable and Screech to make it easier to sweep. Although Burgh's Whirlipede resists its moves, you can still make it frail with Screech, along with Dwebble. Leavanny is the easiet to take down, due to its lack of neutral moves.

matchup: I would say positive, but it took lots of time, partially due to Dwebble's Sand-Attack


Sigilyph(27): Sigilyph 2HKOes Emolgas with Psybeam. You can set up Light Screen to reduce Volt Switch's damage, but keep in mind Zebstrika (or another Emolga) will likely finish you off anyways, as Sigi is easily worn down during the match.

matchup: eh

Whirlipede(28): Her mons will constantly spam Volt Switch. However, you can set up an Iron Defense to benefit if they go for a physical move, like Pursuit or Quick Attack. Keep in mind Screech strategies don't work here, due to VoltSpam. Poison Tail is a 4HKO on Emolgas, while Bug Bite is a 4HKO on Zebstrika. Whirlipede can win this matchup, but it needs lots of items to do so.

matchup: eh, lots of items

Simisear(29): +1 Flame Burst (boost comes from Work Up) is an OHKO on Emolgas and a 2HKO on Zebstrika. Their attack's damage is manageable and no items will be required.

matchup: positive.

Palpitoad(28): It does what it's expected to do. Muddy Water is a 2HKO on Emolgas, while Mud Shot does the same to Zebstrika. With Eviolite, the damage it takes become laughable.

matchup: positive.


Simisear(32): EBelt Grass Knot is an OHKO on Palpi (on rolls) and Krok. Exca is 2HKOed by EBelt Flame Burst, but kills with Bulldoze in return.

matchup: pretty good.

Scolipede(31): Outspeeds and OHKOes Krokorok with Bug Bite. Palpitoad is 3HKOed by BB, but Screech can help a lot in this. Exca takes lots of items, Iron Defenses, and Screeches to be KOed, but it is not impossible, but time consumer.

matchup: pretty good.

Sigilyph(31): Air Cutter is a 2HKO on Krokorok, you win if it misses Swagger. Exca always beats this, but you can set up Reflect on it. Palpitoad is 3HKOed by Psybeam, and you can also set up a Light Screen on it, to make its attacks laughable.

matchup: rather good, idk how Swagger would affect this.

Palpitoad(31): both Scald and Muddy Water are an OHKO on Krokorok and 2HKO on Exca. His Palpitoad takes time to take down, due to Mud Shot dealing eh damage and requiring at least 1 item to muscle through it, but it can still be beaten, provided you have the patience to spam moves.

matchup: pretty good.


Elgyem(38): (I could not avoid overleveling) It can spam Charge Beam against her mons, while taking manageable damage from their attacks due to Eviolite. You might need to heal up once or twice though. Her Swanna will finish it off if you don't heal.

matchup: rather good

Scoli(38): (Same note) It can OHKO Swoobat with Megahorn. However, you cannot Screech her other mons due to Big Pecks. They also have Air Slash, thus your Iron Defense schemes are not gonna be effective.

matchup: eh

Sigilyph(37): Magnet Charge Beam is a 2HKO on Swoobat. +1 is an OHKO on everything else.

matchup: positive

Seismitoad(37): You can set up Rain Dance on Swoobat. Muddy Water and Scald can do considerable damage in rain even after 2 Amnesias. Unfezant is OHKOed by rain Muddy Water. Swanna can be beaten, but it takes lots of time and potions.

matchup: pretty good

Simisear(37): +1 EBelt Bite is an OHKO on Swoobat. Swanna is 2HKOed by such attack, and OHKOed by +2. Unfezant is same situation.

matchup: positive.


Scolipede(41): Megahorn can OHKO Vanillish on rolls. You can outspeed and set up an Iron Defense on Beartic, as Swagger hits won't do much with boosted defense. +2 Megahorn and Poison Jab are OHKOes on Beartic and Cryogonal, respectively.

matchup: positive

Elgyem(41): It can 2HKO Vani with Psychic. Beartic and Cryogonal take laughable damage and can 3HKO in return.

I made a theoritical test in which I use a Beheeyem. +1 Psychic is a 2HKO on Beartic and Cryogonal and unboosted one puts Vani in range. Cryo and Beartic still 3HKO however.

matchup: meh as both

Seismitoad(41): Rain Surf is a 2HKO on Beartic and Vanillish. Rock Slide is an OHKO on Cryogonal. Beartic is problematic with the Swagger, but that's the only bad thing.

matchup: pretty good

Sigilyph(41): Air Slash is a 2HKO on Vani and 4HKO on Beartic and Cryogonal. Beartic can screw itself up if spamming Swagger, due to Wonder Skin, but Crash is a 2HKO. Cryogonal has Aurora Beam instead and eats attacks like nothing

matchup: eh

Simisear(39): Set up 3 Work Ups on Vanillish, only watch out for accuracy drops from Mirror Shot. +3 Fburst is an OHKO on everything, you can even give it a Lucky Egg here to boost its Exp.

matchup: positive


Simisear(45): Set up 2 Work Ups on Fraxure, who will go for DD at least 3 times. +2 itemless Acrobatics is an OHKO on Fraxure and 2HKO on the rest of the mons. However, Haxorus will finish you off, as you will be weakened by Druddigon's attacks. The only way to win is if you flinch it with Bite.

matchup: pretty good

Sigilyph(45): Everything bar Haxorus is 2HKOed by Psychic. You can set up a Reflect and make damage outputs laughable (Haxorus deals almost nothing with Dtail against Reflected Sigilyph).

matchup: positive

Seismitoad(45): Rain Surf is a 2HKO on Fraxure and 3HKO on Druddigon and this is arguably the best option for them. Haxorus is 3HKOed by Bulldoze and it 3HKOes back with Dragon Tail if you are at full, but you likely are not.

matchup: rather good

Beheeyem(45): +1 Psychic is an OHKO on Fraxure and Beheeyem is 3HKOed by +1 Assurance. Druddigon is 2HKOed, and Night Slash can be problematic, but it can also just go for Dtail. Haxorus is almost OHKOed and Dtail's damage is manageable. You might need to heal once or twice though

matchup: pretty good

Scolipede(45): Set up Iron Defense to the max and OHKO Fraxure with Megahorn after RH damage. Druddigon and Haxorus can't do much due to boosts (Drud does have Chip Away but it's eh) and Screech + Megahorn is an OHKO on both (Haxorus is KOed even by Screech + Poison Jab).

matchup: positive


I reached the E4 then and gave the rest of my candies. Some mons ended up being level 51 due to that.

Beheyeem(50): You can use CM 3 times on Cofagrigus. You are able to heal up damage wit Recover if you are not burned and do not get a SpD debuff. After that, +3 Shadow Ball is an OHKO on everything. +2 SpD allows you to live an attack from Chandy as long as you are in green zone. Golurk will, in most cases, finish you off as it's faster.

matchup: rather good actually, you are relying on WoW missing though (or on Full Restore and no SpD debuffs)

Scolipede(51): There isn't really much you can do here, other than spam Payback, but you are generally faster and both Cof and Jellicent are bulky as heck. The only mons it can beat at all are Chandy if Rock Slide flinches and Golurk assuming it curses and you can hit it hard enough to finish it off, but both are situational.

matchup: horrible.

Seismitoad(51): Rain Surf is a 2HKO on Cofagrigus and its Shadow Balls are 3HKO. Jellicent always wins this one. If rain is still up, you can OHKO Golurk with Surf and Chandelure on rolls.

matchup: pretty good

Sigilyph(50): You can try setting up Cosmic Powers on her mons and spam Shadow Ball, but largely it will require lots of items. Cof and Jellicent are only 3HKOed by Shadow Ball anyways, while Golurk can curse and Chandelure can hit it hardly regardless.

matchup: bad

Simisear(50): The only reason why I was even close to winning this is due to ridiculous luck on my side. Cofagrigus 2HKOes with Shadow Ball, while you 2HKO with Fire Blast. However, you are reliant on not missing. Golurk is OHKOed by +1 FBlast, but there's no way you can have the boost prior to the matchup, as Cof would get you then (+1 FBlast doesn't OHKO Cofagrigus) and Golurk's EQ wouldn't allow you to set up on it anyways. Jellicent is 2HKOed by +1 Bite, but its Surf is a clear OHKO. Chandelure is 2HKOed by +1 Rock Slide and Simisear can eat a Shadow Ball if healthy enough (which it likely won't be due to Cofagrigus). Unboosted Rock Slide is still a 2HKO, so you can just switch it in when you haven't used it at all.

matchup: 1/2 with item support


Levels are the same

Simisear: The best way to use Simisear in this battle is with Substitute. Use Sub on Scrafty to avoid Sand-Attack and try to set up 2 Work Ups. Scrafty's AI can derp and try to Sand-Attack despite being behind a Sub. +2 FBlast is an OHKO on everything, but keep in mind Krook will kill you if you miss.

matchup: pretty good, only relies on Fblast not missing.

Beheyeem: lol

Sigilyph: You can try the Cosmic Power strat, coupled wit RHelmet for residual damage. Air Slash is a 2HKO on Scrafty and 3HKO on Krook, and their attacks do nothing when you have at least +3 Defense. However, keep in mind Liepard and Bisharp are very likely to land a crit with Night Slash and promptly ending Sigi's gimmick.

matchup: good, can also need a healing item, due to accuracy drops and being unable to hit Air Slashes to KO stuff.

Seismitoad: Rain Surf is an OHKO on Krook and Liepard and a 2HKO on the rest. As long as Scrafty doesn't land a Def drop on you, you are having a pretty good matchup.

matchup: positive

Scolipede: You can set up a Sub and 3 Iron Defenses on Scrafty. Then nothing can really touch you without crits. You can spread Screeches around to make Scrafty 2HKOed by Megahorn. Everything else is either OHKOed or 2HKOed (Bisharp in this case).

matchup: positive


Levels are the same

Scolipede: Silverpowder Megahorn is an OHKO on everything bar Sigi, which OHKOes back with a super effective move.

matchup: rather good, relying on Megahorn not missing.

Sigilyph: Can try setting up Cosmic Powers on Reuni, but Thunder + paralysis is hella annoying, and requires item spam whenever it happens. Not to mention that Sigi is generally easily worn down, so you need to spam additional items. Even then, once you are done setting up, you can spam Spell Tag Shadow Ball.

matchup: I would say good, because of lots of items and Reuniclus.

Simisear: Charcoal Fire Blast is a 2HKO on everything, but after Reuniclus, you have to switch out and heal at least once against every of her mon. You also rely on FBlast not missing

matchup: "good" at best

Seismitoad: Reuni OHKOes with Energy Ball. Sigi is 2HKOed by Rock Slide and Seismi can eat 2 Psychics. Musharna is too bulky, even rain Surf doesn't do much. Goth is only 3HKOed and there's this thing called Calm Mind that laughs at Seismitoad. Bulldoze is just too weak as an alternative.

matchup: bad

Beheeyem: You can set up on Reuni with Calm Mind and heal up using Recover, just hope you don't get paralyzed. +3 Shadow Ball is an OHKO on everything and even if something survives, they aren't dealing much when you have +3 SpD. I was able to win this despite being paralyzed without ever using an item, only Recover.

matchup: positive


Beheeyem(50): +1 Psychic is an OHKO on everything, but you are outsped by everything so you need to heal up few times.

matchup: rather good

Scolipede(52): You can set up 2 Iron Defenses first and then a Substitute, so Stone Edge needs more than 1 hit to break a Sub. Then spam Screech and use Megahorn. It will require few items though.

matchup: rather good

Seismitoad(51): Rain Surf is a 2HKO on everything, with Throh and Sawk coming one after another. Conk will generally finish off with Hammer Arm. Mienshao only 3HKOes with Jump Kick.

matchup: pretty good.

Simisear(50): Absolutely everything is 2HKOed by Charcoal Fire Blast and has Rock coverage. In most cases, Simisear can only barely survive an attack, in some cases it doesn't. Sawk is outsped, at least, so 2 Fire Blasts, as long as they don't miss, will kill it (although the chances of them missing increase as Marshal heals it).

matchup: I wouldn't call this good

Sigilyph(51): EBelt Psychic is a 2HKO on Throh and Sawk and OHKO on the rest. You can use Cosmic Power to make Stone Edge less threatening, but there's the crit ratio. Sigi generally can only take one Rock move with no boosts. Nonethless, healing might be required.

matchup: pretty good


Seismitoad(51): Bulldoze is a 3 or 4HKO on Zekrom, it will generally be manageable. Rain Surf is a 2HKO on everything else and an OHKO on Archeops. You might need to heal up few times though.

matchup: rather good

Scolipede(52): Can use the Iron Defense strat on Zekrom to beat it. Carracosta is also generally beaten, but you might need to use an item. Vani and Klinklang are special attackers, so don't rely too much on this. Archeops achieves a 2HKO with a supereffective move even if Scoli is at +2, so Scoli can't do much here. Zoroark is outsped and OHKOed by Megahorn.

matchup: 1/2

Simisear(51): Gl beating Zekrom. Carracosta and Archeops destroy this. It can OHKO Vani, Zoroark, and Klinklang with Charcoal Fire Blast.

matchup: 1/2

Beheeyem(51): Beheeyem can't do much against Zekrom due to being a physical attacker and using Light Screen, not sure how it would perform against Reshiram. Zoroark and Klinklang are problematic, the latter due to Metal Sound and being faster. Carracost and Archeops outspeed and 2HKO Beheeyem, although Beheyeem also 2HKOes both, meaning Archeops can be put in Defeatist range for another teammate. Vani 2HKOes with Blizzard, but if it misses or goes for Hail, you win, as Psychic is a 2HKO.

matchup: bad

Sigilyph(52): Doesn't do well against Zekrom due to Fusion Bolt and Light Screen. Zoroark, Vani, and Klinklang defeat this due to type matchup (Dark, Blizzard, and Steel, respectively). Carracosta and Archeops OHKO with rock moves.

matchup: bad


Seismitoad(52): Rain Surf is a 2HKO on Cofagrigus, but be careful of poisoning. Bouffalant and Seismitoad kill each other after Seismitoad uses its 2nd rain Surf due to recoil. His Seismitoad is 2HKOed on rolls with Surf, but he hits back hard. Hydreigon is a loss here, unless you've got Drain Punch. Bisharp and Eelektross can be taken out by sheer power, but this fight overall requires few items.

matchup: good at best

Scolipede(52): Cofagrigus is bad matchup due to lack of strong moves. Bouffalant is beaten due to combo of RHelmet, recoil, and Iron Defense. Eelektross OHKOes with Acrobatics. Hydreigon outspeeds and OHKOes with Fire Blast. Megahorn is only a 2HKO on it. Megahorn is a 2HKO on Bisharp, but Bisharp is only threatening if it clicks Metal Burst, otherwise, just use Iron Defense on it. Seismitoad 2HKOes with Muddy Water, even without rain.

matchup: 1/3

Simisear(53): +1 Charcoal FBlast is an OHKO on Cofagrigus. Bisharp is also OHKOed. Bouffalant OHKOes with Head Charge and Hydreigon OHKOes with Surf. Seismitoad can be beaten if you have Grass Knot and have a boost (theorymoning here cause I didn't have it). Eelektross is 2HKOed by +1 FBlast, but Eelektross is capable of KOing you if you are weakened.

matchup: 1/2

Beheeyem(51): Can only beat Cofagrigus. Shadow Ball is a 2HKO on it. Everything else outspeeds and 2HKOes and survives a Psychic from it (with Hyd and Bisharp being immune).

matchup: bad

Sigi(52): Cof beats this as even with Cosmic Power, you can still be overpowered, as Psychic doesn't deal much to it. Hyd and Bisharp beat this automatically. Eelektross and Bouffalant overwhelm with Wild Charge. Seismitoad is bulky and can eat 2 Psychics, while 2HKOing with rain Muddy Water.

matchup: horrible


Now... the nominations !

I can see Pansear in B, I disagree, just like Drumstick Gaming, on A rank for it. No A rank Pokemon suffers majorly early-game. Anyways, A rank is irrelevant for my nom. Although Pansear has a rough start, its time as Simisear during Gym Leaders and some of the E4 members is pretty good. It's kind of similar to Blitzle, but Simisear has a better time, which is why I think B rank is fine. I do not mind if it stays at C, however, I can perfectly see why it would stay in there. Its Incinerate period is compensated by the fact it comes early (and helps against Striaton where you need the monkey).


This is perhaps the most controversial nom I am making this run. The reason why I nominate it to drop is that it doesn't have such excellent matchup against Gym Leaders. End-game, it requires tons of items in order to pull off its best strategies, too much even for A rank. If it doesn't go for something like Cosmic Power end-game, it's losing. So basically, Sigilyph is a sink for items end-game, and against Gym Leaders, it could do better. Its bad matchups are a little bit more than what you would expect from an A rank mon. Thus I think Sigi is a B mon. Not to mention that its encounter rate isn't appealing, either.


Elgyem is similar to Munna, except for higher SpA in end evolution. Furthermore, Elgyem isn't cursed to stay in its base form for long, unlike Munna. Finally, Recover is a much better move to spam, as opposed to the low PP Moonlight that is ineffective in rain. I think that its late arrival is compensation for the fact you don't have to deal with it for too long, as its base form learns its useful moves (Psychic and CM) pretty fast. It can also theoritically have extra coverage with Hidden Power, but that's merely a bonus. I think Elgyem is on the same level as Munna, if we take into account both's pros and cons. Elgyem has a good matchup against the E4 actually and can perform well against whatever's left from the gyms, bar Brycen. I can live with Elgyem being D, however, so I won't be too sad if the nom doesn't go through.


Venipede and Whirlipede periods are awful, but Scoli becomes awesome with Megahorn. If it didn't have Megahorn, it'd likely be at D. I also have to mention the gimmick strats with Iron Defense that are really fun. Overall, Veni has few tools to help you with, but is garbage outside of that.


Although reliant on rain, Tympole performs really well in most battles it participates in. Rain dependance stops it from being A, along with lacking a good STAB Ground outside of Bulldoze. But yeah, Tympole is not a bad choice and is definitely better than most C mons, but isn't overly amazing to be A. Its early arrival somewhat boosts its viability. It uses its Ground typing for defensive purposes, in most times, and I think it does it very well.


I apologize for double posting, but I think this is different and major enough that it warrants a second posting, + it notifies Drumstick so he can check it whenever he can.
 
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