Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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I can test Tympole.

I want to test either Pidove or Archen as well, so let me know which one needs a test most. I originally planned to use Darumaka as well, but I think it´s better to retest Pansear because so many people have used Darumaka already. I also definitely want to test Ferroseed. For the final slot I need a special attacker, and I was thinking about Gotitha or Stunfisk. Again, let me know which one I should use

So the final team would be Pansear, Pidove/Archen, Tympole, Ferroseed and Gothita/Stunfisk. That's decent
I can guarantee Gothita is a solid C mon from a previous run. I don't think it can rise to B because it's rather mediocre in terms of power but it does bring some utility to be at C. I don't find it impossible if it happened to drop, but I don't think it is that bad to drop, but that's just my opinion. I would suggest testing Stunfisk but others might have something else to say.
 
I can test Tympole.

I want to test either Pidove or Archen as well, so let me know which one needs a test most. I originally planned to use Darumaka as well, but I think it´s better to retest Pansear because so many people have used Darumaka already. I also definitely want to test Ferroseed. For the final slot I need a special attacker, and I was thinking about Gotitha or Stunfisk. Again, let me know which one I should use

So the final team would be Pansear, Pidove/Archen, Tympole, Ferroseed and Gothita/Stunfisk. That's decent
It was established early on (and by Infernape later) that Pidove is hot garbage and that I’d assume needs no further testing. Test Archen: I know it continues the S tier debates but it’s loads more relevant than Pidove who kinda peaks at Gym 3 and never really evolves beyond a generic Return/Fly mon.

Darumaka is probably going in S from the looks of it. Ryota proves Belly Drum strats are viable (I’ll have to go back to fully read his post when I’m free) and Hustle doesn’t matter when you annihilate everything; the only one who comes close to that power early is Sawk.

Gothita and Stunfisk I doubt will move from their current placements (IIRC C and D respectively). Whenever I used Gothita in the past (outside of this list) I felt it never really did anything remarkable and was just there. Try Stunfisk out, though idk what you’ll do with it.

Ferroseed seems good; IIRC Ryota and Random wanted it in B a while back.

As for Scraggy, yeah I think Moxie plays a big role in its placement. The mon could certainly use more Moxie testing, though this by no means invalidates Ryota’s experience with it. Might be a unique case of tiering by Ability.

I’ll post more later. Keep the activity up if you guys can, I think we have some real direction going on!

Edit Stuff: Ryota have fun with Pawniard. Night Slash at 49, Iron Head at 54 if you wait two levels to evolve. Maybe it’ll see D tier but it’s such an uphill battle to evolution.
If you want something “fun” to use try Alomomola (no don’t do that you have too much to live for).

I wouldn’t mind another opinion on Snivy, if someone could test that at some point. Oshawott as established is consistent, Tepig is pretty uneven, and Snivy is resisted by everything and their third cousin twice removed. Unlike some of the other Grasses, it lacks the raw initial firepower which makes mons like Lilligant succeed with boosts (yeah Serperior has Coil but a lot of endgame is special based, and the ones that aren’t are easily countered by a Fighting type which as I implied earlier are among the best and therefore most used mons in the game) or the coverage that makes mons like Simisage and Sawsbuck shine (yay for alliteration).
On the contrary, being early is good, but a lot of things are okay early because the first two gyms don’t hit much super-effectively. I’m fine if someone can refute these points but the typical saving grace of most B mons is endgame, which is hard for Snivy unless you go out of your way to abuse screens and items IIRC.

Tiny Update: Beat Elesa. Apparently Sawk Dig is NOT a guaranteed OHKO on Zebstrika without Soft Sand. However, non-Black Belt Low Sweep still 2HKOs. The more you know.
Finished Cold Storage now too, so I should beat Clay soon (might update after Skyla).
 
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I wouldn’t mind another opinion on Snivy, if someone could test that at some point. Oshawott as established is consistent, Tepig is pretty uneven, and Snivy is resisted by everything and their third cousin twice removed. Unlike some of the other Grasses, it lacks the raw initial firepower which makes mons like Lilligant succeed with boosts (yeah Serperior has Coil but a lot of endgame is special based, and the ones that aren’t are easily countered by a Fighting type which as I implied earlier are among the best and therefore most used mons in the game) or the coverage that makes mons like Simisage and Sawsbuck shine (yay for alliteration).
On the contrary, being early is good, but a lot of things are okay early because the first two gyms don’t hit much super-effectively. I’m fine if someone can refute these points but the typical saving grace of most B mons is endgame, which is hard for Snivy unless you go out of your way to abuse screens and items IIRC.
The thing with Snivy is that while it has a bad offensive typing and very poor coverage, its non-offensive movepool, great Speed and decent defenses allow it to thrive in more matchups than it would look like at first. There are some major trainers it can solo... if given enough time to set up a good bunch of Coils.

And that "given enough time" is not a good thing in these in-game tiers, of course.
 
You state that it's useless against Skyla because there is one water type, which seems to suggest that it can't possibly be useful by beating the two non-water types (both of which it does beat actually). Also, if amnesia is a problem to you, you're doing something wrong because you should be using rock tomb, which is an easy 2HKO on everything. You can set up two work ups against Unfezant because it's not very threatning, after which Unfezant and Swanna are both OHKO'd.
I'm not doing anything wrong. If you read my first post, I stated that I had a Pansear with 0 IVs in Attack pretty much making him a Special Attacker. Regardless, my experience is muddled at best as a result as I cannot use its full potential. Both you and Drumsticks are going to be testing it so that will be another 3. I may do a restest and try to land a mixed one to see if I can place it a better tier than what I am thinking. The other issue I've stated is that its pretty much overshadowed by my other teammates (except Maractus). The other two can simply just either wall or boost fast than Sear can.

As for Clay, I never used Expert Belt (that may have been the issue) however I had stated that Grass Knot did not do enough damage to Palp and did less than Flame Burst to Krok. Solarbeam was not ideal either as well. Krok couls simply Bulldoze me and pretty much nuke my speed (which actually makes him send out Drill and KO me. I forget my nature on Sear but I'm pretty sure it isn't speed lowering), and let's not forget Torment. If you try to do a clean sweep with it, that wrecks your chances. Granted, if you've stated that you OHKOd the Krok and Palp, I can't help but think that you were overleveling Drill (You provided no levels to this claim). You also commented that I was not underleveled. I was. I reached 31 after the fight. So Sear was 30 at the time.

Another issue is you outspeeding an Emolga. Thats 101 vs 103, Emolga's favor. Now you could have had a speed buiffing nature, but I dunno. I also said in my post that Elesa was skewed because I forgot to save in my sleep deprived state. So I'm not gonna count that fight heavily as I could not test each and every individual pokemon.

I am not attacking you in any regard, but trying to tell you my side and why my experiences with it are lackluster at best. Believe me, I would be using physical moves if I could, but 0 IVs in Attack is VERY noticable.

As for my next planned testing team: Tepig (Drumsticks asked me to do this himself), Sandile, Sigiglyph, and Minccino
 
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This is the most average Pansear I could get:
177514


I really wanted one with average atack and special attack so I can test damage ranges more reliably. Something else of note is that I got Pansear before fighting Cheren in the trainer school. Pansear beats Cheren up on its own, which is important because the experience from that fight can get Pansear halfway level 12 before fighting Cilan. The first gym trainer gets Pansear to level 11, and the second one gets it halfway to level 12. It did actually hit level 12 after beating Cilans Lilipup. You don't need to be level 12 to beat Pansage really, but it certainly speeds things up. So let's get into the matchup proper now.

Cilan
First, you need Oshawott (lv 12) to spam tail whip. As long as you don't attack, Lilipup will not attack either. I tested this about five times to be sure, but Lilipup tried settting up to +6 with work up every time. Oshawott outspeeds (I should mention that my Oshawott seems to have good spd IV's though), so after four tail whips you can go for a tackle. This puts Lilipup into low-yellow, just outside of potion range. Continue spamming tail whip and let Lilipup faint Oshawott. Pansear can then come in, finish the job with stratch and reach level 12. Alternatively, you can tail whip 5 times before tackling with Oshawott so Cilan will use his potion on Lilipup, but it doesn't matter much either way.

At level 12, incenerate is a 4HKO, 5HKO if you factor in the potion. I also tested the level 11 Pansear, and the result was exactly the same. 4HKO, without potion, 5HKO with potion factored in. Meanwhile, Pansage only does 6 damage back with vine whip. It never tries to use fury swipes or lick since the AI seems to only take BP into account when choosing a move. So in summary, Pansear definitely does beat Pansage reliably.


Lenora
- Pansear (19): this is though. Pansear can somewhat reliably beat Herdier with some support. First, use Oshawott as intimidate fodder as Herdier hurts itself a bit with take down. Then bring out Pansear and use yawn as Herdier uses take down again. You have to use a super potion to survive the second take down. Herdier will fall asleep and you can set up two work ups. Together with the damage Herdier took from take down, a +2 bite can KO, but this is a range. Rock smash does reliably get the KO, but then you have to give up on bite which I didn't want to do just yet. You can set up a yawn on Watchog as well, but Pansear can't really do anything with those free turns as it is too weak. Overall, unreliable, but not completely useless.
- Tympole (19): Tympole also has it rough. It outspeeds Herdier and it takes two take downs after a growl. Bubblebeam comes close to 3HKO'ing, but without mystic water it's a 4HKO. Since Tympole can take two take downs after a growl, you can beat Herdier by alternating using bubblebeam and a super potion, but this is expensive. It doesn't outspeed Watchog naturally, but it does after a mutshot. Growling isn't very useful since Watchog loves to spam leer to cancel this out. Bubblebeam is a 5HKO, which is not too great. Honestly, supersonic might be your best option against Watchog despite it not being very accurate. Tympole too is unreliable, but not useless.

After some tries, I managed to muddle through with some luck on take down misses and confusion hax.


Burgh
- Simisear (23): outspeeds and OHKO's everything, even Dwebble. Absolutely flawless matchup.
- Tympole (23): It 3HKO's Whirlipede while Wirlipede doesn't do much damage back. Leavanny completely walls it. Dwebble is outsped and OHKO'd by bubblebeam. Overall, Tympole is pretty alright.


I see that Turdterra has replied while I was writing this post, so to avoid double posting I'm briefly adressing it down here. This has nothing to do with my current playthrough.

I'm not doing anything wrong. If you read my first post, I stated that I had a Pansear with 0 IVs in Attack pretty much making him a Special Attacker. Regardless, my experience is muddled at best as a result as I cannot use its full potential. Both you and Drumsticks are going to be testing it so that will be another 3. I may do a restest and try to land a mixed one to see if I can place it a better tier than what I am thinking. The other issue I've stated is that its pretty much overshadowed by my other teammates (except Maractus). The other two can simply just either wall or boost fast than Sear can.

As for Clay, I never used Expert Belt (that may have been the issue) however I had stated that Grass Knot did not do enough damage to Palp and did less than Flame Burst to Krok. Solarbeam was not ideal either as well. Krok couls simply Bulldoze me and pretty much nuke my speed (which actually makes him send out Drill and KO me. I forget my nature on Sear but I'm pretty sure it isn't speed lowering), and let's not forget Torment. If you try to do a clean sweep with it, that wrecks your chances. Granted, if you've stated that you OHKOd the Krok and Palp, I can't help but think that you were overleveling Drill (You provided no levels to this claim). You also commented that I was not underleveled. I was. I reached 31 after the fight. So Sear was 30 at the time.

Another issue is you outspeeding an Emolga. Thats 101 vs 103, Emolga's favor. Now you could have had a speed buiffing nature, but I dunno. I also said in my post that Elesa was skewed because I forgot to save in my sleep deprived state. So I'm not gonna count that fight heavily as I could not test each and every individual pokemon.

I am not attacking you in any regard, but trying to tell you my side and why my experiences with it are lackluster at best. Believe me, I would be using physical moves if I could, but 0 IVs in Attack is VERY noticable.

As for my next planned testing team: Tepig (Drumsticks asked me to do this himself), Sandile, Sigiglyph, and Minccino
I didn't realise your Pansear had 0 IV's in attack. That explains a lot to be honest, since almost all of Simisears coverage options are physical.

I still don't really get how your Simisear didn't OHKO Krok with grass knot when it was at the same level as mine. Maybe it was the expert belt after all. I hope my retest might give a better look at the Clay matchup.

Is the difference between 101 vs 103 really that big? I wouldn't be surprised if my Simisear reaches level 26 or 27 by the time I get to Nimbasa, which is higher than Emolga's level of 25. Simisear also should have gotten some random speed iv's. I used a Simisage a couple of days ago, which I know did not have a speed boosting nature, and It also outsped Emolga.

I will stop harping on about your test, now that I know you're working with a 0 atk IV, speed lowering nature Pansear. That definitely seems rather horrible. I apologize if I came across as preachy or rude. I just want to make sure that Pansear gets a fair judgement.
 
This is the most average Pansear I could get:
View attachment 177514

I really wanted one with average atack and special attack so I can test damage ranges more reliably. Something else of note is that I got Pansear before fighting Cheren in the trainer school. Pansear beats Cheren up on its own, which is important because the experience from that fight can get Pansear halfway level 12 before fighting Cilan. The first gym trainer gets Pansear to level 11, and the second one gets it halfway to level 12. It did actually hit level 12 after beating Cilans Lilipup. You don't need to be level 12 to beat Pansage really, but it certainly speeds things up. So let's get into the matchup proper now.

Cilan
First, you need Oshawott (lv 12) to spam tail whip. As long as you don't attack, Lilipup will not attack either. I tested this about five times to be sure, but Lilipup tried settting up to +6 with work up every time. Oshawott outspeeds (I should mention that my Oshawott seems to have good spd IV's though), so after four tail whips you can go for a tackle. This puts Lilipup into low-yellow, just outside of potion range. Continue spamming tail whip and let Lilipup faint Oshawott. Pansear can then come in, finish the job with stratch and reach level 12. Alternatively, you can tail whip 5 times before tackling with Oshawott so Cilan will use his potion on Lilipup, but it doesn't matter much either way.

At level 12, incenerate is a 4HKO, 5HKO if you factor in the potion. I also tested the level 11 Pansear, and the result was exactly the same. 4HKO, without potion, 5HKO with potion factored in. Meanwhile, Pansage only does 6 damage back with vine whip. It never tries to use fury swipes or lick since the AI seems to only take BP into account when choosing a move. So in summary, Pansear definitely does beat Pansage reliably.


Lenora
- Pansear (19): this is though. Pansear can somewhat reliably beat Herdier with some support. First, use Oshawott as intimidate fodder as Herdier hurts itself a bit with take down. Then bring out Pansear and use yawn as Herdier uses take down again. You have to use a super potion to survive the second take down. Herdier will fall asleep and you can set up two work ups. Together with the damage Herdier took from take down, a +2 bite can KO, but this is a range. Rock smash does reliably get the KO, but then you have to give up on bite which I didn't want to do just yet. You can set up a yawn on Watchog as well, but Pansear can't really do anything with those free turns as it is too weak. Overall, unreliable, but not completely useless.
- Tympole (19): Tympole also has it rough. It outspeeds Herdier and it takes two take downs after a growl. Bubblebeam comes close to 3HKO'ing, but without mystic water it's a 4HKO. Since Tympole can take two take downs after a growl, you can beat Herdier by alternating using bubblebeam and a super potion, but this is expensive. It doesn't outspeed Watchog naturally, but it does after a mutshot. Growling isn't very useful since Watchog loves to spam leer to cancel this out. Bubblebeam is a 5HKO, which is not too great. Honestly, supersonic might be your best option against Watchog despite it not being very accurate. Tympole too is unreliable, but not useless.

After some tries, I managed to muddle through with some luck on take down misses and confusion hax.


Burgh
- Simisear (23): outspeeds and OHKO's everything, even Dwebble. Absolutely flawless matchup.
- Tympole (23): It 3HKO's Whirlipede while Wirlipede doesn't do much damage back. Leavanny completely walls it. Dwebble is outsped and OHKO'd by bubblebeam. Overall, Tympole is pretty alright.


I see that Turdterra has replied while I was writing this post, so to avoid double posting I'm briefly adressing it down here. This has nothing to do with my current playthrough.


I didn't realise your Pansear had 0 IV's in attack. That explains a lot to be honest, since almost all of Simisears coverage options are physical.

I still don't really get how your Simisear didn't OHKO Krok with grass knot when it was at the same level as mine. Maybe it was the expert belt after all. I hope my retest might give a better look at the Clay matchup.

Is the difference between 101 vs 103 really that big? I wouldn't be surprised if my Simisear reaches level 26 or 27 by the time I get to Nimbasa, which is higher than Emolga's level of 25. Simisear also should have gotten some random speed iv's. I used a Simisage a couple of days ago, which I know did not have a speed boosting nature, and It also outsped Emolga.

I will stop harping on about your test, now that I know you're working with a 0 atk IV, speed lowering nature Pansear. That definitely seems rather horrible. I apologize if I came across as preachy or rude. I just want to make sure that Pansear gets a fair judgement.
It's perfectly fine. I would like to ask if you can do a test with expert belt and without. That will settle the matter with OHKOing Clay's mons. 101 vs 103 isn't all that much, but it IS something to point out at least.
 
I'm definitely going to test with and without expert belt. I did that in my first test of Simisear as well and the expert belt made the difference. I'm also testing miracle seed, since it has a 20% boost to grass knot compared to expert belts 10% IIRC
 
Do you guys think the level limit should be raised to 3 above a leader’s ace post-Lucky Egg? I came dangerously close to outleveling Skyla (closest was Musharna with 1328 EXP to 38 pre-battle, but I’ve reset to lower my EXP values a bit), and Ryota said he had to catch something for fear of overleveling.

In regard to the simply “just don’t use it” argument, I think that’s kinda silly as why the heck wouldn’t you use boosted EXP? It cuts down on time grinding, most things have evolved/are evolving soon by the time you get it so there’s minimal need for Eviolite and it even likely makes a full party of six viable if you go that route. It just makes a run more efficient other than a few extra minutes spent in menus. In addition, even if a user was to outlevel Skyla/Brycen, we’ve established both matchups are insanely easy anyway. I know it creates an appearance that a Pokémon is better than it actually is like XY Exp. Share, but from my experience the game usually catches back up to you around the E4, and it’s unlikely you’ll outlevel Hydreigon in the end anyway.

I’ll post write ups for Clay and Skyla in a bit. Might pick up a sixth team member to ease the levels; thinking it might be Cryogonal (that encounter rate sucks but it has a niche as a fast screens user with Ice Beam that you can use right away unlike Vanillite or Cubchoo) or Golett (been awhile since we’ve seen discussion on this thing). Regardless, I doubt either will rise above D since even some of the better captures around Skyla are B at best.

Before I post Clay matchups let it be known that I didn’t grind on trainers on Route 6 beforehand. Wanted to go in a tad underleveled this time to see if it would noticeably change anything (plus I didn’t feel like wasting Repels on a route I’d be traveling back through to Chargestone Cave). I did do 2 days of the 2 big stadium/small court stuff though, and I grinded on wild mons on Route 6/Cold Storage to get Dewott to 30.

Darumaka (29): If you hit through Swagger, you kill Krokorok. Surprisingly without Eviolite, you can actually live a Muddy Water from Palpitoad at full HP!

Problem is though: hurting yourself in confusion does around half your HP (you can rarely live if you hit yourself twice).

I eventually got annoyed at hitting myself in confusion in like 4 consecutive attempts (remember I’m playing on cart with no speed-up toggle) so I tried testing the other members to avoid Swagger. Against Palp, Thrash knocks it to red and seemingly almost OHKOs it with a good roll; few levels higher might close the gap but then again I am running Brave. You auto-lose to Excadrill regardless of Eviolite, Bulldoze OHKOs. Probably the only matchup Darumaka isn’t stellar, but you can at least chunk Palpitoad.

Dewott (30): Without Eviolite, matchup is alright. You take Krokorok’s Crunch at about 2/3 HP, Exca tends to Hone Claws while you knock him down to low yellow with Mystic Water boosted Razor Shell, but he kills you next turn. I thought this would be a problem Aqua Jet could solve, but seeing as after research Aqua Jet is level 33, I don’t think most players would have that luxury unless they go kinda out of their way for it. Funnily enough, when I tested with Eviolite for the first time, I got Swaggered, killed Krok, got out of 1 turn up confusion OHKOing Exca while it used Hone Claws. I then outsped and OHKOed Palpitoad, ending the match at full HP (!)

When I got an attempt where Swagger missed, Clay decided to use Slash with Excadrill instead of Hone Claws; not only did it not crit me either time (with 2 Slash uses taking me to just over 1/3 of my HP) but I was able to kill Palpitoad fine (Bulldoze does like 15 HP and then it went for Aqua Ring giving me the 2HKO). I conclude this matchup is great but you need a little bit of luck dodging Swagger.

Munna (31): Wall of text again. Using Eviolite, and it’s awkward vs Palpitoad. You should be able to 3HKO with Psybeam, but this is hampered by both Muddy Water’s potential 50% accuracy drops and Aqua Ring (especially if you miss). Potential confusion with Psybeam and Muddy Water misses (85% accuracy so not super rare) can sort of offset this but that’s luck-based too. Interesting thing is that a crit Muddy Water from full HP takes off roughly half HP. Muddy Water seems to do about 24-25 damage normally (and thus a 4HKO) so it doesn’t threaten you. With smart use of Yawn (on Clay’s healing turns) and a little luck, you should be able to beat Palpitoad with one Hyper Potion use from you, with Clay using both of his. Now onto Excadrill. I set up Yawn and Reflect while Exca boosted twice. With Nightmare and Psybeam I chopped him down to mid-Yellow. Given I was at 71/96 HP, I wasn’t quite able to finish Exca off (Slash + Bulldoze killed me) but I was able to whittle it down to low yellow.

In another attempt, I used Yawn on Palp first turn while it used Aqua Ring. Despite a crit from Muddy Water, this went smoothy, with Nightmare and Psybeam I was able to take down Palpitoad without triggering a Hyper Potion. As Exca boosted first turn, and with the general frequency of it boosting in other matchups, you should be able to get off a Yawn or Reflect here. I would assume Yawn strats are the way to go based on the overall higher efficiency in this attempt compared to the previous one.

Gigalith (30): If you can sleep Exca with another mon, you can troll Clay by setting up Iron Defense to +6. At +3 Defense (due to Exca’s Attack boosts) Rock Slide does like 13 damage, which is like an 8HKO. On you. You 3HKO with Rock Smash, but if you are lucky enough to get a Defense drop you can 2HKO. Tested vs. Krokorok. Confusion via Swagger does 20-22 HP (I think Crunch does like 20 HP). If you get REALLY lucky and somehow end up at Exca with full HP (like Palp uses Aqua Ring and you hit through confusion) Rock Smash hits Exca into heal range. When Exca finally attacked me with two boosts, Bulldoze killed from 80/100 HP.

Now I tested with Expert Belt (was using Soothe Bell to charge up Return when I learn it at Mistralton). Interestingly, I tested vs Palp as a joke here. Aqua Ring made the Strength 2HKO shaky, but I apparently rolled a favorable range while Muddy Water missed. As for Excadrill without any support, I boosted to +3 (again Exca tends to boost turn 1 so you can set up quicker than him). Crit Rock Slide but Sturdy saves me while I get a Rock Smash Defense drop. After healing I take Exca out with no further problems.

Sawk (30): Low Sweep or Brick Break takes out Krok no problem. Palpitoad is a little tricky. Brick Break takes it solidly to red. If he uses Bulldoze, Low Sweep while Clay heals (incidentally Low Sweep is a 2HKO anyway). One on one, Brick Break takes Exca solidly to red (I am not using Black Belt) and maybe even OHKOs if you’re lucky or a higher level (mine seemed to live consistently). If he still has healing items at the point you knock him to red, Low Sweep to drop Speed and win the subsequent turn. If you try and solo and come in with a speed drop (I was at 69/90 HP) then simply Low Sweep 2HKO to victory. For what it’s worth, Sawk can take a +1 Bulldoze comfortably (in high red health due to a misclick from the previous amount of HP, so it does around half) Sawk and Exca can get close in Speed (my Sawk was outsped I believe consistently) but it’s nothing Low Sweep can’t fix anyway. If you test with Expert Belt it gets even easier as you always OHKO Exca with Brick Break. This matchup is fantastic, especially if Palpitoad derps with Aqua Ring and you use Expert Belt.
Gigalith (37): LOL. I had to buff with Iron Defense to force Swanna to hit me as it tends to Aqua Ring turn 1. Seeing as BubbleBeam does around half this matchup is pretty safe even if the other mons damage you. Everything is OHKOed by Rock Slide.

Musharna (37): Swoobat’s Acrobatics seems to roughly 5HKO. Amnesia and Unaware make boosting to kill the bat weird. However, you 3HKO Swoobat at +2 Special Defense with Charge Beam so it’s not super awful. You should accumulate enough boosts to OHKO the others with Psychic (Swanna does like...25 damage with Air Slash lol). Quick Claw helps a lot in this fight (though it doesn’t seem to be required), but Charge Beam misses can be very annoying. In one attempt where it used Acrobatics, I humorously crit to OHKO. Razor Wind from Unfezant does absolutely nothing (you 2HKO it with no boosts), Swanna used lol Aqua Ring and died; finished in green. On another attempt, Swoobat used Amnesia twice but I still seemed to 3HKO. Seeing as at least two solo attempts ended in green I’d assume this matchup is excellent. On an unrelated Sawk attempt I tested Swanna one on one; Charge Beam doesn’t OHKO without boosts (Magnet likely guarantees the kill) but does OHKO at +1. Tested the entire matchup with Magnet, doesn’t seem to change matchup much.

Sawk (37): Using Expert Belt. Bulk Up while Swoobat uses Amnesia. This sounded great until Acrobatics crit me next turn AND Rock Tomb missed. One reset later, I realized Payback or Return would have slightly more reliability and higher power on Swoobat. Notably, you can OHKO Swoobat with no buffs with 100 power Payback. +1 Brick Break fails to OHKO Unfezant (at least you outspeed) while Air Slash takes you around half (I was still in green, speaks for the quality of Unfezant in general). If you get the rare turn 1 Swoobat Acrobatics it cleanly does over half health. However given in the same attempt I was able to get to +4 and murder the team post a Hyper speaks to how dumb Swoobat’s Ai can be. To my astonishment, I outsped Swanna; at +4; you can sometimes OHKO Swanna with a high roll on Brick Break. Sawk seems to outspeed Swanna at 80 Speed (thanks to a level up during the fight). Another attempt; replaced Payback with Rock Tomb and cleanly swept (with Swoobat barely damaging me). Tried again, I missed Rock Tomb on Swanna and died. Replaced Low Sweep with Payback (will TM the former back on post-Surf). You might need 1 Hyper Potion in case Swoobat starts attacking early (sometimes she goes for Amnesia twice or even three times in a row) but this is a very good matchup; on an average attempt at Swoobat it used Acrobatics and Heart Stamp. Hilariously, +2 Brick Break can very rarely not OHKO Unfezant; was curious if it would happen again post Hyper, but I crit (amusingly I crit in another attempt too). Swanna never seems to survive +2 Rock Tomb though, and even when it gets a free turn it can sometimes use Aqua Ring. Given that Swoobat does about 70 HP with no boosts and about 50 damage at +1 Defense with Acrobatics, there’s a chance you’ll have to heal if the Ai guesses correctly or you get crit or flinched (Heart Stamp). Tfw Sawk can obliterate a disadvantageous matchup with a little luck on the first mon.

Darmanitan (37): Belly Drum. Swoobat can be dumb and go for Amnesia twice. My Darm is outsped by Swanna (thanks Brave) but seeing as BubbleBeam only does half you could feasibly Flare Blitz. Problem though; Swoobat 3HKOs with Acrobatics. If you can get lucky and survive both Acrobatics and BubbleBeam you actually OHKO Swanna with Charcoal-boosted Flare Blitz. Interestingly, without using Belly Drum, my Darmanitan hit Swanna into low red with a Flare Blitz which speaks for itself. You 2HKO Swanna with Fire Punch. You also outspeed Unfezant even with Brave. So with this knowledge I reset once more. To guarantee victory (not using Belly Drum), you need Swoobat to Amnesia turn 1 and Swanna to Aqua Ring on turn 1 (this would probably change if my Speed was higher than Swanna’s). Swoobat and Unfezant are OHKOed by Fire Punch, so even disregarding Swanna this matchup is still good.

Samurott (37): Mystic Water Razor Shell does a bit more to Swoobat than Megahorn does, with both knocking Swoobat into heal range. After wasting her two Hyper Potions you can Aqua Jet to kill (or getting a Defense drop pre-heal). Unfezant is 2HKOed by two Razor Shells. Swanna falls to two uses of Return. Great matchup. This fight is so pathetic you can even throw turns away because Skyla can’t really damage you in any meaningful way, making even a 5% Razor Shell miss a non-issue. I mean, even after Unfezant’s Leer and a crit Aerial Ace from Swanna, I was at like 43 HP. The damage ranges can get a little close but honestly, it’s kinda a joke.
 
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Do you guys think the level limit should be raised to 3 above a leader’s ace post-Lucky Egg? I came dangerously close to outleveling Skyla (closest was Musharna with 1328 EXP to 38 pre-battle, but I’ve reset to lower my EXP values a bit), and Ryota said he had to catch something for fear of overleveling.

In regard to the simply “just don’t use it” argument, I think that’s kinda silly as why the heck wouldn’t you use boosted EXP? It cuts down on time grinding, most things have evolved/are evolving soon by the time you get it so there’s minimal need for Eviolite and it even likely makes a full party of six viable if you go that route. It just makes a run more efficient other than a few extra minutes spent in menus. In addition, even if a user was to outlevel Skyla/Brycen, we’ve established both matchups are insanely easy anyway. I know it creates an appearance that a Pokémon is better than it actually is like XY Exp. Share, but from my experience the game usually catches back up to you around the E4, and it’s unlikely you’ll outlevel Hydreigon in the end anyway.

I’ll post write ups for Clay and Skyla in a bit. Might pick up a sixth team member to ease the levels; thinking it might be Cryogonal (that encounter rate sucks but it has a niche as a fast screens user with Ice Beam that you can use right away unlike Vanillite or Cubchoo) or Golett (been awhile since we’ve seen discussion on this thing). Regardless, I doubt either will rise above D since even some of the better captures around Skyla are B at best.
I guess as long as one isn't horribly over-leveled it matters little. I'd still at least try to be near the current leader's ace.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Do you guys think the level limit should be raised to 3 above a leader’s ace post-Lucky Egg? I came dangerously close to outleveling Skyla (closest was Musharna with 1328 EXP to 38 pre-battle, but I’ve reset to lower my EXP values a bit), and Ryota said he had to catch something for fear of overleveling.

In regard to the simply “just don’t use it” argument, I think that’s kinda silly as why the heck wouldn’t you use boosted EXP? It cuts down on time grinding, most things have evolved/are evolving soon by the time you get it so there’s minimal need for Eviolite and it even likely makes a full party of six viable if you go that route. It just makes a run more efficient other than a few extra minutes spent in menus. In addition, even if a user was to outlevel Skyla/Brycen, we’ve established both matchups are insanely easy anyway. I know it creates an appearance that a Pokémon is better than it actually is like XY Exp. Share, but from my experience the game usually catches back up to you around the E4, and it’s unlikely you’ll outlevel Hydreigon in the end anyway.

I’ll post write ups for Clay and Skyla in a bit. Might pick up a sixth team member to ease the levels; thinking it might be Cryogonal (that encounter rate sucks but it has a niche as a fast screens user with Ice Beam that you can use right away unlike Vanillite or Cubchoo) or Golett (been awhile since we’ve seen discussion on this thing). Regardless, I doubt either will rise above D since even some of the better captures around Skyla are B at best.

Before I post Clay matchups let it be known that I didn’t grind on trainers on Route 6 beforehand. Wanted to go in a tad underleveled this time to see if it would noticeably change anything (plus I didn’t feel like wasting Repels on a route I’d be traveling back through to Chargestone Cave). I did do 2 days of the 2 big stadium/small court stuff though, and I grinded on wild mons on Route 6/Cold Storage to get Dewott to 30.

Darumaka (29): If you hit through Swagger, you kill Krokorok. Surprisingly without Eviolite, you can actually live a Muddy Water from Palpitoad at full HP!

Problem is though: hurting yourself in confusion does around half your HP (you can rarely live if you hit yourself twice).

I eventually got annoyed at hitting myself in confusion in like 4 consecutive attempts (remember I’m playing on cart with no speed-up toggle) so I tried testing the other members to avoid Swagger. Against Palp, Thrash knocks it to red and seemingly almost OHKOs it with a good roll; few levels higher might close the gap but then again I am running Brave. You auto-lose to Excadrill regardless of Eviolite, Bulldoze OHKOs. Probably the only matchup Darumaka isn’t stellar, but you can at least chunk Palpitoad.

Dewott (30): Without Eviolite, matchup is alright. You take Krokorok’s Crunch at about 2/3 HP, Exca tends to Hone Claws while you knock him down to low yellow with Mystic Water boosted Razor Shell, but he kills you next turn. I thought this would be a problem Aqua Jet could solve, but seeing as after research Aqua Jet is level 33, I don’t think most players would have that luxury unless they go kinda out of their way for it. Funnily enough, when I tested with Eviolite for the first time, I got Swaggered, killed Krok, got out of 1 turn up confusion OHKOing Exca while it used Hone Claws. I then outsped and OHKOed Palpitoad, ending the match at full HP (!)

When I got an attempt where Swagger missed, Clay decided to use Slash with Excadrill instead of Hone Claws; not only did it not crit me either time (with 2 Slash uses taking me to just over 1/3 of my HP) but I was able to kill Palpitoad fine (Bulldoze does like 15 HP and then it went for Aqua Ring giving me the 2HKO). I conclude this matchup is great but you need a little bit of luck dodging Swagger.

Munna (31): Wall of text again. Using Eviolite, and it’s awkward vs Palpitoad. You should be able to 3HKO with Psybeam, but this is hampered by both Muddy Water’s potential 50% accuracy drops and Aqua Ring (especially if you miss). Potential confusion with Psybeam and Muddy Water misses (85% accuracy so not super rare) can sort of offset this but that’s luck-based too. Interesting thing is that a crit Muddy Water from full HP takes off roughly half HP. Muddy Water seems to do about 24-25 damage normally (and thus a 4HKO) so it doesn’t threaten you. With smart use of Yawn (on Clay’s healing turns) and a little luck, you should be able to beat Palpitoad with one Hyper Potion use from you, with Clay using both of his. Now onto Excadrill. I set up Yawn and Reflect while Exca boosted twice. With Nightmare and Psybeam I chopped him down to mid-Yellow. Given I was at 71/96 HP, I wasn’t quite able to finish Exca off (Slash + Bulldoze killed me) but I was able to whittle it down to low yellow.

In another attempt, I used Yawn on Palp first turn while it used Aqua Ring. Despite a crit from Muddy Water, this went smoothy, with Nightmare and Psybeam I was able to take down Palpitoad without triggering a Hyper Potion. As Exca boosted first turn, and with the general frequency of it boosting in other matchups, you should be able to get off a Yawn or Reflect here. I would assume Yawn strats are the way to go based on the overall higher efficiency in this attempt compared to the previous one.

Gigalith (30): If you can sleep Exca with another mon, you can troll Clay by setting up Iron Defense to +6. At +3 Defense (due to Exca’s Attack boosts) Rock Slide does like 13 damage, which is like an 8HKO. On you. You 3HKO with Rock Smash, but if you are lucky enough to get a Defense drop you can 2HKO. Tested vs. Krokorok. Confusion via Swagger does 20-22 HP (I think Crunch does like 20 HP). If you get REALLY lucky and somehow end up at Exca with full HP (like Palp uses Aqua Ring and you hit through confusion) Rock Smash hits Exca into heal range. When Exca finally attacked me with two boosts, Bulldoze killed from 80/100 HP.

Now I tested with Expert Belt (was using Soothe Bell to charge up Return when I learn it at Mistralton). Interestingly, I tested vs Palp as a joke here. Aqua Ring made the Strength 2HKO shaky, but I apparently rolled a favorable range while Muddy Water missed. As for Excadrill without any support, I boosted to +3 (again Exca tends to boost turn 1 so you can set up quicker than him). Crit Rock Slide but Sturdy saves me while I get a Rock Smash Defense drop. After healing I take Exca out with no further problems.

Sawk (30): Low Sweep or Brick Break takes out Krok no problem. Palpitoad is a little tricky. Brick Break takes it solidly to red. If he uses Bulldoze, Low Sweep while Clay heals (incidentally Low Sweep is a 2HKO anyway). One on one, Brick Break takes Exca solidly to red (I am not using Black Belt) and maybe even OHKOs if you’re lucky or a higher level (mine seemed to live consistently). If he still has healing items at the point you knock him to red, Low Sweep to drop Speed and win the subsequent turn. If you try and solo and come in with a speed drop (I was at 69/90 HP) then simply Low Sweep 2HKO to victory. For what it’s worth, Sawk can take a +1 Bulldoze comfortably (in high red health due to a misclick from the previous amount of HP, so it does around half) Sawk and Exca can get close in Speed (my Sawk was outsped I believe consistently) but it’s nothing Low Sweep can’t fix anyway. If you test with Expert Belt it gets even easier as you always OHKO Exca with Brick Break. This matchup is fantastic, especially if Palpitoad derps with Aqua Ring and you use Expert Belt.
I think Lucky Egg should be a standard. As you said, not only the game catches up to you endgame (only Exca can out level Hydreigon as it can sweep the whole e4 with Lucky Egg). XY's Exp. Share is much more broken, because it can boost unviable mons' viability (cause Exp. Share also passes EVs), wheres here, my Lucky Egg wouldn't make Alomomola less shit; A Mon 2 levels higher generally doesn't alter the matchup so much, unless you have learnt a useful move, in which case it is reasonable to take it into account.

EDIT: If it wasn't obvious, I think Lucky Egg should be a standard because it makes the game more optimal, which is the point of this whole project.

Also letting you know that I am at Nacrene and am hunting for Throh, as I have never used one before and wanna see how it performs. I was also gonna pick up Cubchoo, cause I think it could raise to D, if my assumptions about its matchups are correct
 
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Thanks for feedback on Lucky Egg. Skyla matchups will be posted up above (I’m still testing). Does anyone know where we can get the exact stats of Gym Leader mons (for reference to outspeed them)?
 
Elesa
- Simisear (26): after a work up, it outspeeds and OHKO's the Emolga's with charchoal flame burst. Zebstrika outspeeds but fails to KO even after volt switch damage. It is OHKO'd by +1 dig on the following turn. Solo
- Palpitoad (27): Eviolite Palpitoad takes no damage from any of Elesa's pokemon. Bubblebeam fails to 2HKO the emolga's which is a bit annoying since she starts spamming potions, but it doesn't matter much. Mud shot is a 2HKO on Zebstrika. You might need a potion if you don't have aqua ring. Solo again
- Archen (26): all of Elesa's pokemon outspeed and OHKO Archen, so it was literally useless. Horrible matchup.

Clay

- Simisear (30): non expert belt grass knot barely fails to OHKO Krook and Palpitoad. Expert belt guarantees the OHKO on Krookorok, but not Palpitoad. I tried using a genius wing and a rare candy, which got Simisear up to lv 31 with 71 sp. atk, which was enough to OHKO both Krook and Palp. Simisear also came really close to OHKO'ing Excadrill with flame burst at lv 31, but it's not quite strong enough to solo. The matchup depends a lot on whether you can OHKO palp or not. If you manage that, it's a great matchup for Simisear.
- Palpitoad (30): It OHKO's krook, but it has to take either a bulldoze or a swagger first. Swagger is annoying, but once it is over it has no more effect on the rest of the matchup. Bulldoze however, has lasting consequences against Excadrill since you need to be at neutral speed to beat Excadrill in the safest way. The fight against the enemy Palpitoad relies heavily on you being faster (I wasn't faster, even when factoring in bulldoze from Krook). Muddy water is a 2HKO, but since the enemy Palp uses aqua ring, you HAVE to hit it twice in a row, which is easier said than done (swagger, accuracy drops, low accuracy of muddy water in general). If you did not get bulldozed, you can outspeed and KO Excadrill with scald after using mud shot. Excadrill generally goes for hone claws, so you can beat it reliably. Overall, the matchup is good. You do probably need some really good luck or some items though.
- Archen (29): I used a bit of a gimmicky strategy, but it is very reliable. I didn't know this before, but you can get persim berries from catching Tympoles. Krook always uses swagger on turn one, so you can safely set up an agility with a persim berry equiped. After turn one, Archen is at +2 atk and spd with its item consumed, so it completely wrecks Clays entire team with acrobatics and dig for Excadrill. Reliable solo, but you do need a persim berry for it. I don't consider this to be a problem really, since Tympole is common and has a good 50% chance of carrying a persim berry. You need to go though Pinwheel forsest anyway if you want to revive Archen, so you might as well snag a Tympole while you're there.

Skyla
- Simisear (35): expert belt shadow claw OHKO's Swoobat reliably. Unboosted rock tomb is a 2HKO on Swanna, and Swanna can't OHKO back with bubblebeam, so you can beat Swanna somewhat reliably. Unfezant can theoretically beat you if you took a bubblebeam, but it always goes for Razor wind. It turns out that you don't even need work up at all. You can use yawn + healing item on Swanna you only need the healing item if Swanna uses bubblebeam over aqua ring) if you are worried about rock tomb missing. It's not needed, but a little safer. Another solo for Simisear.
- Palptioad (35): Muddy water reliably OHKO's Swoobat in the rain. It's a range on Unfezant, but Unfezant can't do much back anyway so getting a bad roll isn't the end of the world. Palpitoad doesn't have a good move to hit Swanna with, so your best bet is fishing for burns with scald. Swanna doesn't have a good move to hit Palp with either. You might need a healing item when witthling down Swanna. I also tested Seismitoad (lv 36), which gets rock tomb. This significantly speeds up the fight with Swanna, making the matchup even more reliable. Solo
- Archen (35): Swoobat and Swanna outspeed, so you have to set up an agility on turn one. no item Acrobatics is a guaranteed OHKO on Swoobat, but rock tomb is a range (expert belt makes it guaranteed). Rock tomb is a 2HKO on Swanna, but you need Swanna to use aqua ring to survive. If it uses bubblebeam, Archen is dead. You can survive with an eviolite and 2HKO even after being knocked into defeatist range though. Unfezant poses no threat and is 2HKO'd. I also tested Archeops (lv 37), which outspeeds and OHKO's everything with rock tomb, as expected.
- Ferroseed (34): you can set up six curses on Swoobat with ease. You might need to heal if you don't use eviolite (I used lucky egg). After cursing up, gyro ball OHKO's everything. easy solo

That's one more playthrough where my ENTIRE team soloed the fight against Skyla without too much trouble.
 
Thanks for feedback on Lucky Egg. Skyla matchups will be posted up above (I’m still testing). Does anyone know where we can get the exact stats of Gym Leader mons (for reference to outspeed them)?
I'm not sure myself, but I think I read in an old datamine that gym leader Pokemon have like IVs of 20 in each stat, a neutral nature, and no EVs. (E4 have IVs of 25 while champions have 30. I presume N and Ghetsis also have the IVs of 30) Serebii has their teams and levels, which can then be used with the Showdown calculator.
 
Wanted to pop in and give a few thoughts on my mons now that I’m past Skyla.
Munna was quirky. It’ll 3HKO everything for its entire life, but there are just enough Whirlipede/Timburr/Trubbish/I unevolved stuff for it to not feel dead weight, and it takes hits very well with Eviolite even later on (IIRC it lived two Darumaka Fire Punches). Takes its sweet time in matchups, but on the other hand not many mons get Yawn (off the top of my head only Pansear gets it).
Gigalith is absolutely one of the best mons in A. Waiting for Rock Slide makes you stay unevolved longer sure, and Rock Blast can be a tad unreliable, but as it puts in a very solid resume as Roggenrola major battle wise it’s still pretty great. If you immediately get Gigalith, you have a titanic behemoth who eats everything from mooks (I think it may have lived a crit Scald from a mook’s Panpour?). It may be slow, but nothing ever can really touch it for a LONG time. Movepool may be shallow but it gets what it needs and lets it run Iron Defense comfortably.
Oshawott performs as you’d expect; pretty solid everywhere. Razor Shell doesn’t really fall off with Mystic Water on, and it can perform decently in every major battle save Elesa (where it can at least chunk an Emolga).
Sawk is very solid indeed, though I wouldn’t mind seeing more opinions on it. It takes a long time for the game to start catching up with it in stats, and it can even take powerful hits (like Excadrill’s +1 Bulldoze) reliably. I think its performance against the E4 will solidify it’s S tiering or not though it does have a strong showing, particularly in beating Lenora and Clay easily when those matchups are hard to overcome by a lot of Pokémon. Being difficult to catch (45 catch rate when you only have a single Ultra Ball) and needing Sturdy and decent IVs, when you have about 3 options for status (one of which is Oshawott-dependent in Pansear) and hard to find if playing White slightly count against it. It’s closest comparison in this regard (sans catch rate) is Drilbur (who took me a while to find one run and I found immediately the next). That being said, over in the RSE tier list Ralts is still lauded as S despite rarity so I don’t know. Might need some opinions on these aspects. My question is: Should a mon’s rarity or catch rate factor into its tiering (like with Sawk/Throh, Sigilyph, Cryogonal, or Tynamo)? Yes, like Ryota said on the last page, Sawk and Throh function almost exactly the same, but I am focusing how hard it is to obtain them optimally. Throh wants Guts while Sawk wants Sturdy, and as we have seen with Ryota (not an insult, just an observation) a mon’s Ability can affect their viability notably.
Darumaka is Darumaka. It being S at this point is probably only held back by the formality of me finishing my run. Mine is slightly slower than I’d like thanks to Brave but this is not affecting its placement as there has been an overwhelming amount of support for S Darmanitan if you look back through this thread, and Hustle is really only a minor annoyance that shouldn’t detract from the mon as its early power is pretty much unrivaled save for Sawk. Final Hustle count was as follows (mind you some were probably only added to retests):
4 opponent misses (when I was facing one)
Post capture (when I used one): 20
Part of me wants to drop Archen to A, but I’ll wait until Magnus0’s run is over before I potentially do so. I’m going to keep Scraggy in S for now; though it needs to be thoroughly tested with Moxie before it’s S ranking is assured.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
lots of logs incoming, feel free to read whatever you want

Pignite(level 20) can set up Work Ups and Flame Charges on Herdier, Charcoal Flame Charge is a 2HKO and +1 4 Arm Thrusts kill this. Watchog is KOed by +1 5 hits but its Retaliate, coupled with possible Defense drops from Leer, kills Pignite, so you might wanna sack something in.

I am really lucky here. Not only Throh appeared, but it came with Black Belt. Anyways, Throh(level 18) OHKOes her mons (if Throh doesn't have an Attack drop) with Vital Throw, which it learns at level 17.


Throh(24): Throh can set up Work Ups on Whirlipede, whose Poison Tail doesn't deal much, just prepare to heal it in case it gets poisoned. You can use Retaliate here to KO Whirlipede (which I think was a 2HKO). Leavanny took quite a lot from boosted Revenge. Its Razor Leaf, when not a crit, doesn't deal much. Dwebble is easier to defeat.

I don't think Throh is gonna fall below A, but knowing what we are having with Throh is certainly good when we reach write up phases

matchup: positive.

Petilil(25): It can only beat Dwebble with 2 Miracle Seed Magical Leaves, as everything else is 4x resistant to Grass. I think everyone knows this.

matchup: meh

Pignite(24): You can set up a Work Up on Whirlipede and OHKO it with Charcoal Flame Charge. Leavanny is also obvously OHKOed. Dwebble is 2HKOed by +1 Charcoal Flame Charge.

matchup: positive


Pignite(29): General strategy is give it Eviolite, use a Flame Charge on an Emolga (and pray for no Static hax), set up a Work Up or two and start spamming Flame Charge. Aerial Ace from Emolga was around a 4HKO with Eviolite. Only bad thing here is you might need to heal once if you get paralyzed, but it's not too major. +1 Flame Charge is a 2HKO on all of her mons.

matchup: positive

Lilligant(28): You can set up 2 QDs, as Aerial Ace is barely a 3HKO. +2 Giga Drain outspeeds and OHKOes everything. Nothing more to be said

matchup: positive

Throh(28): +1 Revenge is an OHKO on all, if you take damage. Emolga's Aerial Ace is manageable and you might only need 1 healing item, but in my case, I didn't need any.

matchup: positive

By the way, I needed to catch a mon so I don't overlevel and decided to grab a Yamask from Desert Resort. I think I might hold on testing Pawniard for another run.

Yamask(29): Will-o-Wisp with Eviolite makes physical attacks deal almost nothing (assuming WoW hits on first place). Boosted Hex is a 2HKO on everything You might need 2 Hyper Potions if luck is bad and Wow misses constantly.

matchup: rather good, kind of relies on WoW not missing.


Pignite(32): Clay is overall a dice; if you are able to survive Swagger hax and etc., you are likely to win. +2 Flame Charge is a 2HKO on Krokorok, and Arm Thrust is an OHKO. Expert Belt Grass Knot fails to OHKO Palpitoad but Pignite survives a Bulldoze. Exca is OHKOed by +2 Heat Crash.

matchup: luck reliant

Throh(31): Throh here is kind of luck reliant as well, but not so much, since it can take Swagger hits much better. +2 Storm Throw OHKOes everything.

matchup: less luck reliant, but still

Yamask(33): Yamask requires tons of healing items to not die. Everything here either has the power to damage it while not burned or is Krokorok with Swagger. Hex's limited PP is also problematic.


I did a run with a Cofagrigus to see how it performs. It has a really easy time taking attacks and spreading burns and using Hex. Exca's Hone Claws can be rendered useless with Haze, while burned. Also, you will need at most 1 Hyper Potion here.

matchup: Good as Cofagrigus, rather bad as Yamask.

Lilligant(30): OHKOes Krokorok and Palpitoad with unboosted Miracle Seed Giga Drain. +1 Giga 2HKOes Exca. All of his mons are naturally outsped

matchup: positive


I caught a Cubchoo from the route before Celestial Tower (available only on winters, aka April, August, and December). It required a little bit babysitting before level 30, where it started to be more independant. I was able to evolve it before Skyla's battle.

Beartic(37): Icicle Crash is an OHKO on Swoobat and Unfezant. They are faster, but they do not deal much to it. Swanna is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash and can't do much either.

matchup: positive.

Lilligant(38): I couldn't avoid this, I apologize for that. I set up a Leech Seed on Swoobat and put it to sleep with Sleep Powder to not be a sitting duck while setting up a QD. Swoobat generally goes for Amnesia first turns. After that, you just muscle through with Miracle Seed Giga Drain. With few boosts, you can then OHKO Swanna and Unfezant as well.

matchup: positive.

Throh(37): You can set up Bulk Ups on Swoobat, which will try to set up Amnesia. +2 Body Slam is a 2HKO on Swanna and Swoobat. +2 Storm Throw is an OHKO on Unfezant. You will need at most 1 Hyper Potion to heal it up.

matchup: positive.

Cofagrigus(37): You can burn Swoobat, remove its Amnesias with Haze and use a boosted Hex. Its Heart Stamp doesn't do much. Unfezant laughs at you, as you can only burn it, due to having only Ghost moves at this point. Swanna, if burned, is 2HKOed by Hex. Its moves don't threaten Cofagrigus too much.

matchup: good, kind of deadweight against Unfezant.

Emboar(37): If you use a Flame Charge on Swoobat, you can then finish it off with a Rollout and start stacking it. Unfezant is killed by the 3rd Rollout and Swanna is killed by the 4th. Only Unfezant outspeeds after +1, but it's not too threatening. If you have no Rollout, you probably can overpower at least Swoobat and Unfezant with Flame Charge and Heat Crash.

matchup: almost positive, only relies on consistent Rollout hits.


btw, I thought I was gonna overlevel so I skipped some part of the Twist Mountain trainers. Half of my mons aren't affected much by this, so I hope it's not a big deal.

Beartic(41): Superpower is an OHKO on Vanillish if it hasn't used Acid Armor. His Beartic is OHKOed from full by Superpower if you don't have drops. Cryogonal is OHKOed even by -1 Superpower.

matchup: good if you do not lead it against Vanillish.

Cofagrigus(40): Spell Tag Shadow Ball is a 2HKO on Vanillish. Beartic can be burned and made not so threatening. Hex is a 2HKO on this if burned. Cryogonal is also 2HKOed by Hex if burned, you might need to heal once or twice though.

matchup: rather good.

Lilligant(39): If you are able to set up 3 QDs, it's a gg. Vanillish is OHKOed by +2 Miracle Seed Giga Drain and Lilligant also survives a Frost Breath. Beartic is almost OHKOed by +2 Giga Drain and Lilligant sometimes can eat an Icicle Crash. +3 would OHKO, however. Cryogonal is 2HKOed by +2 Giga Drain, but is a special attacker, so... I think if I leveled up here a bit more, I wouldn't need 3 QD boosts to OHKO Beartic.

matchup: positive.

Throh(39): Storm Throw OHKOes Vanillish, even if it sets up an Acid Armor, due to crits. Beartic is OHKOed by +2 Revenge, due to Swagger. Cryogonal is OHKOed by +2 Storm Throw.

matchup: Pretty good, only Swagger is problematic.

Emboar(39): +1 Heat Crash OHKOes +2 Vanillish. Beartic is outsped and OHKOed by +1 Hammer Arm. Cryogonal loses to Emboar no matter what.

matchup: positive.


All mons are level 45. Using the only one mon in team strategy, as in last run.

Beartic: OHKOes everything with Nevermelt Ice Icicle Crash. Only Druddigon is outsped, but Fraxure and Haxorus do not prove much of a threat.

matchup: really good, you just rely on Icicle Crash not missing.

Lilligant: Setting up 2 QDs here is enough. Fraxure is OHKOed by +2 Miracle Seed Giga Drain, while Druddigon and Haxorus are 2HKOed. Fraxure can be a little bit threatening due to the boosts from Dragon Dance, but the rest aren't nearly as scary.

matchup: positive

Emboar: Hammer Arm and a Flame Charge will KO Fraxure. Druddigon can be used as a setup fodder for Work Up and be eventually KOed by Hammer Arm. After 2 or 3 boosts, Haxorus is also OHKOed by Hammer Arm. You might wanna use Flame Charge from time to time, though.

matchup: pretty good.

Cofagrigus: WoW + Hex is an OHKO on Fraxure and 2HKO on Druddigon and Haxorus. You just pray WoW doesn't miss and you will need one healing item at most.

matchup: pretty good.

Throh: Bulk Up on Fraxure, around 3 times, and OHKO everything with Storm Throw. They are not threatening you anytime soon.

matchup: excellent.


I am getting a Tornadus btw, I am curious to see how it performs lol.

Opinions for now, may change after cleaning E4 and N/Ghetsis:

-I think Throh is headed for S rank, just like its brother Sawk. While not possessing the high Speed and Sturdy, Throh posseses high bulk, Guts, and Storm Throw, which can be spammed without regards to Intimidate, Iron Defenses and etc. Bulk Up is also really good. Again, it depends now on how it performs. Storm Throw has only 40 BP, but with STAB, it becomes 60. Couple it with the crit rate, which I think is 2x in Gen 5, it becomes effectively a 120 BP move. It also has Revenge, which, when boosted, is effectively a 180 BP move. Its bulk allows it to eat some attacks, at least prior to the E4.

-Regarding Tepig, Emboar has been becoming more reliant on Hammer Arm, which has the awful Speed drop, preventing it from sweeping successfully. Its coverage is rather abysmal, considering you wanna run Flame Charge to mitigate the Speed drops from Hammer Arm, Work Up so it can set up, Heat Crash for higher damage, and Hammer Arm, because Arm Thrust is becoming really weak. I think Magnus0 might end up being right that Tepig should drop, so its only hope would be to perform excellently in the E4, which I kind of doubt it would do.

-Lilligant so far has really been destroying things, I think it could end up as S rank, but there's the this thing that it doesn't really scream to me "S RANK MON" or "I AM BROKEN", but that's probably just me. If it sweeps the entire E4 and performs well against N/Ghetsis, then objectively it would be appropriate to make it S rank.

-Cubchoo is definitely not an E rank mon. I suspect its E4 matchup will be horrible, so I think Cubchoo will end up in D tier. Vanilluxe is still the best choice for an Ice-type.

-Cofagrigus has actually been doing rather good. I think it could potentially raise to C, if its E4 matchup doesn't suck. I suspect it beating Marshal without much problems and let's hope Caitlin is on the same page as well. Yamask period is kind of annoying, but it still can contribute to Elesa's battle, so it's a nice thing.

-Why I want to catch Tornadus? To be fair, I feel like it could potentially destroy the E4 with Acrobatics and it could potentially rise to D as well (you can call me "Ryota, the man that makes every E mon raise to D").


EDIT:

Should a mon’s rarity or catch rate factor into its tiering (like with Sawk/Throh, Sigilyph, Cryogonal, or Tynamo)? Yes, like Ryota said on the last page, Sawk and Throh function almost exactly the same, but I am focusing how hard it is to obtain them optimally. Throh wants Guts while Sawk wants Sturdy, and as we have seen with Ryota (not an insult, just an observation) a mon’s Ability can affect their viability notably.
To be fair, I think this is a situation in which we are better off going on a case-by-case basis, because it really depends on the mon. For example, it's really easy to know if Sandile has Moxie or Intimidate, wheres here, yeah, it's kind of hard to say what is Sawk's ability, unless you happen to have Fake Out or something. It also depends on how defining the ability is; does the Pokemon need it to function properly? I can say atm that Throh never needed Guts to perform excellently in the Gym runs so far (it has Inner Focus). Sawk, imo, rarely utilizes Sturdy (if I remember correctly) as in most cases it's able to eat an attack anyways. The only time I see it as relevant is against Caitlin, where it allows it to essentially hit one of her mons more than once, but other than that, I remember rarely relying on Sturdy for Sawk to either set up or just attack, so I don't think abilities for these 2 dudes need to factor so much, and can be regarded merely as bonuses if you happen to obtain them.

If I had to choose, I would say, in regards to the optimal abilities, "it should factor in only when the Pokemon needs the ability to function properly and has more than 1 possible ability." (e.g. Scraggy, it needs Moxie to not be in the same scenario as mine was). Catch rate, I thought it was already playing a role, it was one of the reasons why Cobalion dropped iirc. Rarity, I thought it also played already (cause that's generally the reason why Cryo is on the bottom)., but in Sawk and Throh's cases, you can perform the Repel trick I mentioned when making Sawk's nom and you are gonna have easier time finding one of them at level 17.
 
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Alright, so Sawk and Throh’s Abilities don’t tend to matter too much. I can agree on that. I use the Repel trick for both too, and the only other thing you can find at level 17 is Tympole.
I do think their catch rate is kinda iffy when you only have a couple Great Balls at that point naturally (though you can buy more, admittedly). Why this matters more for them and not something like Sigilyph is because you get 10 Ultra Balls en route to Nimbasa before you can buy them after 5 badges.

If possible, can anyone who isn’t a regular with this tier list test some of the higher mons? I feel like while everybody’s findings have been very valid, some fresh opinions would diversify perspectives a bit.
Sigilyph, Sandile, Petilil and Lillipup could maybe use some opinions.
 
lots of logs incoming, feel free to read whatever you want

Pignite(level 20) can set up Work Ups and Flame Charges on Herdier, Charcoal Flame Charge is a 2HKO and +1 4 Arm Thrusts kill this. Watchog is KOed by +1 5 hits but its Retaliate, coupled with possible Defense drops from Leer, kills Pignite, so you might wanna sack something in.

I am really lucky here. Not only Throh appeared, but it came with Black Belt. Anyways, Throh(level 18) OHKOes her mons (if Throh doesn't have an Attack drop) with Vital Throw, which it learns at level 17.


Throh(24): Throh can set up Work Ups on Whirlipede, whose Poison Tail doesn't deal much, just prepare to heal it in case it gets poisoned. You can use Retaliate here to KO Whirlipede (which I think was a 2HKO). Leavanny took quite a lot from boosted Revenge. Its Razor Leaf, when not a crit, doesn't deal much. Dwebble is easier to defeat.

I don't think Throh is gonna fall below A, but knowing what we are having with Throh is certainly good when we reach write up phases

matchup: positive.

Petilil(25): It can only beat Dwebble with 2 Miracle Seed Magical Leaves, as everything else is 4x resistant to Grass. I think everyone knows this.

matchup: meh

Pignite(24): You can set up a Work Up on Whirlipede and OHKO it with Charcoal Flame Charge. Leavanny is also obvously OHKOed. Dwebble is 2HKOed by +1 Charcoal Flame Charge.

matchup: positive


Pignite(29): General strategy is give it Eviolite, use a Flame Charge on an Emolga (and pray for no Static hax), set up a Work Up or two and start spamming Flame Charge. Aerial Ace from Emolga was around a 4HKO with Eviolite. Only bad thing here is you might need to heal once if you get paralyzed, but it's not too major. +1 Flame Charge is a 2HKO on all of her mons.

matchup: positive

Lilligant(28): You can set up 2 QDs, as Aerial Ace is barely a 3HKO. +2 Giga Drain outspeeds and OHKOes everything. Nothing more to be said

matchup: positive

Throh(28): +1 Revenge is an OHKO on all, if you take damage. Emolga's Aerial Ace is manageable and you might only need 1 healing item, but in my case, I didn't need any.

matchup: positive

By the way, I needed to catch a mon so I don't overlevel and decided to grab a Yamask from Desert Resort. I think I might hold on testing Pawniard for another run.

Yamask(29): Will-o-Wisp with Eviolite makes physical attacks deal almost nothing (assuming WoW hits on first place). Boosted Hex is a 2HKO on everything You might need 2 Hyper Potions if luck is bad and Wow misses constantly.

matchup: rather good, kind of relies on WoW not missing.


Pignite(32): Clay is overall a dice; if you are able to survive Swagger hax and etc., you are likely to win. +2 Flame Charge is a 2HKO on Krokorok, and Arm Thrust is an OHKO. Expert Belt Grass Knot fails to OHKO Palpitoad but Pignite survives a Bulldoze. Exca is OHKOed by +2 Heat Crash.

matchup: luck reliant

Throh(31): Throh here is kind of luck reliant as well, but not so much, since it can take Swagger hits much better. +2 Storm Throw OHKOes everything.

matchup: less luck reliant, but still

Yamask(33): Yamask requires tons of healing items to not die. Everything here either has the power to damage it while not burned or is Krokorok with Swagger. Hex's limited PP is also problematic.


I did a run with a Cofagrigus to see how it performs. It has a really easy time taking attacks and spreading burns and using Hex. Exca's Hone Claws can be rendered useless with Haze, while burned. Also, you will need at most 1 Hyper Potion here.

matchup: Good as Cofagrigus, rather bad as Yamask.

Lilligant(30): OHKOes Krokorok and Palpitoad with unboosted Miracle Seed Giga Drain. +1 Giga 2HKOes Exca. All of his mons are naturally outsped

matchup: positive


I caught a Cubchoo from the route before Celestial Tower (available only on winters, aka April, August, and December). It required a little bit babysitting before level 30, where it started to be more independant. I was able to evolve it before Skyla's battle.

Beartic(37): Icicle Crash is an OHKO on Swoobat and Unfezant. They are faster, but they do not deal much to it. Swanna is 2HKOed by Icicle Crash and can't do much either.

matchup: positive.

Lilligant(38): I couldn't avoid this, I apologize for that. I set up a Leech Seed on Swoobat and put it to sleep with Sleep Powder to not be a sitting duck while setting up a QD. Swoobat generally goes for Amnesia first turns. After that, you just muscle through with Miracle Seed Giga Drain. With few boosts, you can then OHKO Swanna and Unfezant as well.

matchup: positive.

Throh(37): You can set up Bulk Ups on Swoobat, which will try to set up Amnesia. +2 Body Slam is a 2HKO on Swanna and Swoobat. +2 Storm Throw is an OHKO on Unfezant. You will need at most 1 Hyper Potion to heal it up.

matchup: positive.

Cofagrigus(37): You can burn Swoobat, remove its Amnesias with Haze and use a boosted Hex. Its Heart Stamp doesn't do much. Unfezant laughs at you, as you can only burn it, due to having only Ghost moves at this point. Swanna, if burned, is 2HKOed by Hex. Its moves don't threaten Cofagrigus too much.

matchup: good, kind of deadweight against Unfezant.

Emboar(37): If you use a Flame Charge on Swoobat, you can then finish it off with a Rollout and start stacking it. Unfezant is killed by the 3rd Rollout and Swanna is killed by the 4th. Only Unfezant outspeeds after +1, but it's not too threatening. If you have no Rollout, you probably can overpower at least Swoobat and Unfezant with Flame Charge and Heat Crash.

matchup: almost positive, only relies on consistent Rollout hits.


btw, I thought I was gonna overlevel so I skipped some part of the Twist Mountain trainers. Half of my mons aren't affected much by this, so I hope it's not a big deal.

Beartic(41): Superpower is an OHKO on Vanillish if it hasn't used Acid Armor. His Beartic is OHKOed from full by Superpower if you don't have drops. Cryogonal is OHKOed even by -1 Superpower.

matchup: good if you do not lead it against Vanillish.

Cofagrigus(40): Spell Tag Shadow Ball is a 2HKO on Vanillish. Beartic can be burned and made not so threatening. Hex is a 2HKO on this if burned. Cryogonal is also 2HKOed by Hex if burned, you might need to heal once or twice though.

matchup: rather good.

Lilligant(39): If you are able to set up 3 QDs, it's a gg. Vanillish is OHKOed by +2 Miracle Seed Giga Drain and Lilligant also survives a Frost Breath. Beartic is almost OHKOed by +2 Giga Drain and Lilligant sometimes can eat an Icicle Crash. +3 would OHKO, however. Cryogonal is 2HKOed by +2 Giga Drain, but is a special attacker, so... I think if I leveled up here a bit more, I wouldn't need 3 QD boosts to OHKO Beartic.

matchup: positive.

Throh(39): Storm Throw OHKOes Vanillish, even if it sets up an Acid Armor, due to crits. Beartic is OHKOed by +2 Revenge, due to Swagger. Cryogonal is OHKOed by +2 Storm Throw.

matchup: Pretty good, only Swagger is problematic.

Emboar(39): +1 Heat Crash OHKOes +2 Vanillish. Beartic is outsped and OHKOed by +1 Hammer Arm. Cryogonal loses to Emboar no matter what.

matchup: positive.


All mons are level 45. Using the only one mon in team strategy, as in last run.

Beartic: OHKOes everything with Nevermelt Ice Icicle Crash. Only Druddigon is outsped, but Fraxure and Haxorus do not prove much of a threat.

matchup: really good, you just rely on Icicle Crash not missing.

Lilligant: Setting up 2 QDs here is enough. Fraxure is OHKOed by +2 Miracle Seed Giga Drain, while Druddigon and Haxorus are 2HKOed. Fraxure can be a little bit threatening due to the boosts from Dragon Dance, but the rest aren't nearly as scary.

matchup: positive

Emboar: Hammer Arm and a Flame Charge will KO Fraxure. Druddigon can be used as a setup fodder for Work Up and be eventually KOed by Hammer Arm. After 2 or 3 boosts, Haxorus is also OHKOed by Hammer Arm. You might wanna use Flame Charge from time to time, though.

matchup: pretty good.

Cofagrigus: WoW + Hex is an OHKO on Fraxure and 2HKO on Druddigon and Haxorus. You just pray WoW doesn't miss and you will need one healing item at most.

matchup: pretty good.

Throh: Bulk Up on Fraxure, around 3 times, and OHKO everything with Storm Throw. They are not threatening you anytime soon.

matchup: excellent.


I am getting a Tornadus btw, I am curious to see how it performs lol.

Opinions for now, may change after cleaning E4 and N/Ghetsis:

-I think Throh is headed for S rank, just like its brother Sawk. While not possessing the high Speed and Sturdy, Throh posseses high bulk, Guts, and Storm Throw, which can be spammed without regards to Intimidate, Iron Defenses and etc. Bulk Up is also really good. Again, it depends now on how it performs. Storm Throw has only 40 BP, but with STAB, it becomes 60. Couple it with the crit rate, which I think is 2x in Gen 5, it becomes effectively a 120 BP move. It also has Revenge, which, when boosted, is effectively a 180 BP move. Its bulk allows it to eat some attacks, at least prior to the E4.

-Regarding Tepig, Emboar has been becoming more reliant on Hammer Arm, which has the awful Speed drop, preventing it from sweeping successfully. Its coverage is rather abysmal, considering you wanna run Flame Charge to mitigate the Speed drops from Hammer Arm, Work Up so it can set up, Heat Crash for higher damage, and Hammer Arm, because Arm Thrust is becoming really weak. I think Magnus0 might end up being right that Tepig should drop, so its only hope would be to perform excellently in the E4, which I kind of doubt it would do.

-Lilligant so far has really been destroying things, I think it could end up as S rank, but there's the this thing that it doesn't really scream to me "S RANK MON" or "I AM BROKEN", but that's probably just me. If it sweeps the entire E4 and performs well against N/Ghetsis, then objectively it would be appropriate to make it S rank.

-Cubchoo is definitely not an E rank mon. I suspect its E4 matchup will be horrible, so I think Cubchoo will end up in D tier. Vanilluxe is still the best choice for an Ice-type.

-Cofagrigus has actually been doing rather good. I think it could potentially raise to C, if its E4 matchup doesn't suck. I suspect it beating Marshal without much problems and let's hope Caitlin is on the same page as well. Yamask period is kind of annoying, but it still can contribute to Elesa's battle, so it's a nice thing.

-Why I want to catch Tornadus? To be fair, I feel like it could potentially destroy the E4 with Acrobatics and it could potentially rise to D as well (you can call me "Ryota, the man that makes every E mon raise to D").


EDIT:



To be fair, I think this is a situation in which we are better off going on a case-by-case basis, because it really depends on the mon. For example, it's really easy to know if Sandile has Moxie or Intimidate, wheres here, yeah, it's kind of hard to say what is Sawk's ability, unless you happen to have Fake Out or something. It also depends on how defining the ability is; does the Pokemon need it to function properly? I can say atm that Throh never needed Guts to perform excellently in the Gym runs so far (it has Inner Focus). Sawk, imo, rarely utilizes Sturdy (if I remember correctly) as in most cases it's able to eat an attack anyways. The only time I see it as relevant is against Caitlin, where it allows it to essentially hit one of her mons more than once, but other than that, I remember rarely relying on Sturdy for Sawk to either set up or just attack, so I don't think abilities for these 2 dudes need to factor so much, and can be regarded merely as bonuses if you happen to obtain them.

If I had to choose, I would say, in regards to the optimal abilities, "it should factor in only when the Pokemon needs the ability to function properly and has more than 1 possible ability." (e.g. Scraggy, it needs Moxie to not be in the same scenario as mine was). Catch rate, I thought it was already playing a role, it was one of the reasons why Cobalion dropped iirc. Rarity, I thought it also played already (cause that's generally the reason why Cryo is on the bottom)., but in Sawk and Throh's cases, you can perform the Repel trick I mentioned when making Sawk's nom and you are gonna have easier time finding one of them at level 17.
The repel trick isn't as helpful when trying to find Sawk or Throh in the shaking grass, (if you wanted to use Sawk in White or Throh in Black) seeing as Audino can also be encountered at level 15. (granted, repels can help you reach the shaking grass in relative peace)
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
I caught Tornadus relatively fast.

took some Rare Candies and took the TM for Rock Slide while I was hunting for Rare Candies.

Emboar(49): Cofagrigus 3HKOes with Psychic and Emboar 3HKOes with +1 Flame Charge (Heat Crash doesn't do much). Keep in mind I was -Spa nature so I forgoed Flamethrower. So Cofagrigus beats this, in few words. Jellicent obviously beats this, Grass Knot won't help here. Chandelure 2HKOes with Psychic and your only coverage would be Rock Slide, which barely 2HKOes. Golurk OHKOes with Earthquake and Emboar doesn't do enough damage.

matchup: horrific

Cofagrigus(50): Shadow Ball is a 2HKO on her Cofagrigus, which generally attempts to burn it first. Jellicent outspeeds and 2HKOes with Shadow Ball, while Cofagrigus can also only 2HKO, so it loses here. Chandelure OHKOes with Shadow Ball. Golurk generally uses Curse and then you kill it with Shadow Ball.

matchup: 50/50

Beartic(50): Cofagrigus is 3HKOed by Icicle Crash, but constantly burns it. Chandelure and Jellicent obviously beat this, as Chandy OHKOes with Fblast and Beartic lacks the coverage to hit Jellicent hardly. Golurk generally Curses again and you can kill it with Icicle Crash.

matchup: rather bad

Throh(49): Only bad matchup here is Cofagrigus due to constant burns, Psychic, and the fact Payback touches it, meaning if you have Guts, you can't abuse the burn. However, you can use Jellicent as a set up fodder, as its Surf is a 3HKO. Unboosted Payback is a 3HKO, meaning a boosted one is pretty much a 2HKO, just hope to not hit Cursed Body. Chandelure can't OHKO Throh if healthy enough and dies to boosted +2 Payback. Golurk can't touch you much either due to the Defense boosts you have. +2 Payback is a 2HKO on this.

matchup: rather good, it required more than 1 healing item though, due to Chandelure.

Tornadus(49): Blackglasses Crunch is a 2HKO on Cofagrigus, its Shadow Ball doesn't do much. You outspeed and 2HKO Chandy, but its Fire Blast will only 2HKO if Torn is healthy enough. Jellicent's Surf isn't threatening Tornadus and in return is 2HKOed by Crunch. Golurk generally kills itself with Curse after you Crunch it.

matchup: rather good

Lilligant(47): I set up 6 Quiver Dances on Cofagrigus, by putting to sleep with Sleep Powder and not taking much from Shadow Balls. +6 Giga Drain OHKOes everything bar Chandy, which is OHKOed by Petal Dance instead. You will need at most 1 healing item.

Also, I gave it Lucky Egg for this, and it reached level 50 so it's now on par with my team.
matchup: positive.


Lilligant(50): If you set up safely 3 QDs (by putting Scrafty to sleep), you OHKO everything bar Bisharp with +3 MS Giga Drain, Bisharp is OHKOed by Petal Dance instead. Be careful of Sand Attack and Poison Jab poisoning from Scrafty, though.

matchup: pretty good, since relying on accuracy drops to love me.

Emboar(49): Scrafty is outsped and OHKOed by Expert Belt Hammer Arm. Krookodile beats this due to the Speed drop. Bisharp and Liepard are also OHKOed. You will need at most 1 healing item.

matchup: pretty good, but here's the Hammer Arm inconsistency I was talking about.

Tornadus(49): Acrobatics can be an OHKO on Scrafty, depending on rolls. Krookodile is 2HKOed by boosted Revenge and Tornadus eats 2 Foul Plays, but it's better to just switch out as to not heal Tornadus. Bisharp and Liepard are OHKOed by boosted Revenges. You will need at most 1 healing item.

matchup: pretty good

Beartic(50): Icicle Crash + Superpower is a KO on Scrafty, which will first Sand-Attack and then Brick Break, which you can survive. If you switch out and heal up Beartic, EBelt Icicle Crash is an OHKO on it and Beartic can yet again eat an attack. Same deal with Bisharp and Liepard, except with Superpower only.

matchup: lots of switch outs.

Cofagrigus(50): General strategy is burn everything, cause they are all physical attackers, and heal up. Full Restore can be problematic, but non-crit Attacks generally do not deal much when they are burned. You need to heal a few times though. Also, Cof doesn't have problems with Scrafty's Sand-Attack, due to Haze.

matchup: not bad, but it really depends on a lot of things.

Throh(49): Bulk Up few times on Scrafty and spam your fighting move of choice. Only problem is accuracy drops

matchup: almost perfect, only if there wasn't Sand-Attack.


Throh(51): Reuniclus and Musharna beat this no matter what, as they have enough bulk to only be 3HKOed by Payback. Throh can eat an attack from Sigilyph and OHKO with Blackglasses Payback (which is boosted due to being slower). Goth is 2HKOed, with first turn setting up CM. Should it go for Psychic directly, it's dead.

matchup: pretty bad, but at least it can reliably Sigilyph.

Lilligant(50): Set up 3 QDs on Reuniclus, you can help this by putting to sleep. +3 MS Giga Drain is an OHKO everything bar Sigi, which does not threaten much a mon with +3 in SpD.

matchup: positive.

Beartic(50): Reuniclus is 2HKOed by Nevermelt Ice Icicle Crash and Beartic can barely survive a Focus Blast. Goth is only 3HKOed and it can also 3HKO, but is faster. Sigilyph is faster, but Beartic can eat an attack and OHKO with Icicle Crash. Musharna wins this due to being only 3HKOed.

matchup: meh

Cofagrigus(50): The match goes like this: You 2HKO Reuniclus with Shadow Ball, it deals half of your HP with Psychic, then you switch out, heal it and then it back in to 2HKO the next threat (OHKO on Sigi). Too reliant on switching.

matchup: Too reliant on switching, can only beat Reuni consistently.

Emboar(49): Emboar can 2HKO with Heat Crash anything bar Musharna from full. It can also survive one attack from each at full. Thus you need lots of items and switches to keep this, but at least it beats Reuniclus consistently.

matchup: meh

Tornadus(49): 2HKOes everything with Blackglasses Crunch. In most cases it needs to switch out and heal, as everything 2HKOes (Reuni's Thunder is almost an OHKO). Also, Sigi outspeeds it, but the rest are outsped.

matchup: meh


Tornadus(50): Tornadus 2HKOes Throh and Conk, Sawk is 2HKOed due to Sturdy and Mienshao is OHKOed, altough it outspeeds. You need to heal lots of times due to Rock coverage.

matchup: meh

Cofagrigus(50): Burn + Hex 2HKOes everything, but you need massive item support, so I wouldn't call this matchup ideal. Due to burns, most of his mons won't do much, except Throh, which has Guts, but Mummy takes care of that.

matchup: too many items

Beartic(50): Marshal's mons' Rock and Fighting coverage destroy this thing, it can only rely on outspeeding and flinchin them with Icicle Crash, both of them unreliable.

matchup: horrific

Lilligant(50): You can set up QDs on Throh, 3 will be enough, as then +3 MS Giga Drain OHKOes everything (bar Sturdy Sawk for obvious reasons). Lilligant can eat a critted Stone Edge from Throh.

matchup: positive.

Throh(51): Set up few Bulk Ups on his Throh (Storm Throw ignores Defense boosts sadly), 3 will be enough. You will need at most 1 healing item. Storm Throw then OHKOes everything (excluding, again, the Sturdy Sawk).

matchup: positive.

Emboar(49): Throh overwhelms due to Speed drops from Bulldoze, Emboar can only 3HKO with Hammer Arm, while Bulldoze 3HKOes it as well. Mienshao is KOed by a combo of Flame Charge and Heat Crash, and Emboar survives a Jump Kick. It also survives a Stone Edge from Sawk and can KO it with a combo of Heat Crash and Hammer Arm. Conk 2HKOes with Hammer Arm and Emboar also 2HKOes, but you need to have no Speed drops to win this.

matchup: 50/50


Current opinions:
-Throh is definitely headed for S rank, seeing as it did pretty well against Shauntal despite being a rather bad matchup theoritically.

-Tornadus is likely staying E, it doesn't destroy the E4 as I was hoping to.

-Cubchoo will end up D rank most likely, as I predicted its mediocre E4 matchups (which was kinda obvious tbh).

-Yamask might end up staying at D as well, because of its addiction to item support (fun fact, Yamask can never touch any Normal-type).

-Petilil will likely end up being S considering it was able to sweep the whole E4 (with one member sweeping them at level 47).

-As Magnus0 pointed out in his nomination, Emboar's movepool is pretty terrible and becomes notably problematic in end-game. Brick Break wouldn't deal enough damage and it wants a powerful Fighting-type move, but Hammer Arm's shaky accuracy and Speed drops, along with the fact Emboar doesn't get Bulk Up or something to compensate it for some way, are factors that might end up making Tepig drop.

Tomorrow or the next day, you are getting N and Ghetsis, along with official noms. Those are current opinions only and are subject to change, though I doubt they will actually change.
 
Supdate 4

Chargestone Cave was simple to get through barring the 2 step encounter rate.Rival and N3 was a complete Simipour sweep: Scald is soo goood.
Team preview
178112

lilligant s tier tho it's broke as crud Lilligant has suprised me the most as a teamate: it's able to OHKO almost anything that takes neutral damage from Giga Drain and has very good bulk for this point and can outspeed anything it needs to do so for. As long as the last 3 gyms+E4 Matchups are solid as this, this thing is going to S Tier.

178111

This thing is kinda horseshit. Unless something is frail or weak to STAB Pursuit, Liepard won't be killing it fast enough before it gets wrekt by their moves. It's fraility expands this dong issue by a ton(Defeatist Archen's Acrobatics does 1/2, Boldore's fucking Power Gem off of 50 SpA does 1/3). This thing is honestly garbage and is almost as bad as Pidove, so this thing can go back to E Tier(or i got sacked with dem IV's).

178110

Scald is a friend. Scald is busted. Scald makes everything easier. STAB on it is the icing on the cake to this broken pos and it's burning hatred for everything. A/S Tier in a damn heartbeat.

177976

A true powerhouse/tank/glue/stapler. Takes hits like nothing from just about anything and only fears stuff with Fire moves(only non-Fire type it fears is Zebstrika). Bug Buzz may be special, but it still does it's job very well for STAB and Headbutt gives it the physcial power it needs until it got Iron Head. This thing is the true tank of Unova, and it's going to A Tier lol.


177977

(2nd best Pikaclone, don't @ me). This thing is surprisingly great despite it's mediocre stats all around. Spark and Electro Ball deal good damage for where you are in the game, and an early Acrobatics makes this squirrel viable in all areas. This is a good C Tier, and might even have a shot for B.

178002

Caught Litwick and named it bdt2002. Iv's are here: the defenses are bad, but i'm not passing up that SpA and Spe IV's along with a Hasty Nature! Grinded it in the Celestial Tower up to 35 and minimally for everyone to 37 before fighting Skyla.
V.S Skyla
Emolga(37): Spark OHKO's Swoobat and Swanna and 2HKO's Unfezant. Unfean't movepool sucks so you win this easily
Results: LMAO S Tier.

Litwick@Eviolite(37): Acrobatics does 1/4 with the Eviolite, allowing an easy kill with Wow+Hex. Unfezant's Air Slash does butt damage allowing an easy 3HKO with Flame Burst. Swanna's imposssible, as BubbleBeam 2HKO's and Hex can't do enough.
Results: B Tier, beats 2/3 fairly simple

Liepard@Normal Gem(37): NG-boosted Fake Out+Pursuit allows a clean OHKO on Swoobat. Unfezant 2HKO's with QA after a Leer, making this an impossible fight and the same goes for Swanna except with BubbleBeam
results: E tier. beathing swoobat isn't very big

Simipour@Mystic Water(37): Scald OHKO's Swoobat and Unfezant. Scald can 3HKO Swanna if it scores the burn, and it's Air Slash only does 30%.
Results: A Tier. Easy solo with no healing required.

Escavalier@Quick Claw(37): Iron Head cleans Swoobat in one hit and Unfezant in two. Iron Head is able to clear Swanna in 3, but it's abiity to flinch with Air Slash makes it an annoying, albeit luck-based fight.

Lilligant@Miracle Seed(37): while Acrobatics 2HKO's, if you can put it to sleep and get up to +3, Giga Drain OHKO's her entire team.
Results: B Tier. Swoobat is a dick and can ruin set up, but as long as you set up safely you got this.

see you next time!
 

Attachments

First of all, I promise this is not an attack on anybody. I want to express my thoughts on the S tier in general and see what you guys think. Nobody is wrong for wanting mons in S tier or any other tier, and every poster’s opinion is valid. I’m going to put my thoughts in spoiler tags so it doesn’t clutter the thread.
I think regular old S rank is becoming vastly different from the other games. A while back on page 11 I made a post showing the S tiers of all the other S tiers at the time of the post:
Spr 1b 063.png

Abra

Articuno

Clefairy

Diglett

Nidoran F

Nidoran M

Squirtle (RB)

Zapdos
Spr 2c 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Spr 2c 021.png

Spearow
Spr 2c 158.png

Totodile
Spr 3e 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Spr 3e 258.png

Mudkip
178153

Ralts
Spr 3e 159.png

Croconaw
Spr 3e 196.png

Espeon
Spr 3e 196.png

Eevee (Espeon)
Spr 3e 135.png

Eevee (Jolteon)
Spr 3e 228.png

Houndour
Spr 3e 216.png

Teddiursa
Spr 4p 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Male

Bidoof
Spr 4p 390.png

Chimchar
Female

Starly

Braviary

Darumaka


Drilbur

Heracross

Magnemite

Mincinno (Hidden Grotto)

Aerodactyl

Charmander  sprite from X & Y

Charmander [X]
Charmander  sprite from X & Y

Charmander [Y]

Honedge

Riolu

Abra (Alakazam)

Magikarp

Mudkip

Torchic
Magikarp  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Magikarp
Magnemite  sprite from Sun & Moon

Magnemite
Popplio  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Popplio
Wingull  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Wingull
Hawlucha  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon

Hawlucha
Magnemite  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon

Magnemite
Oricorio  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Oricorio

Aerodactyl
Spr 7s 140.png

Kabuto
Related image

Starter Eevee
Related image

Starter Pikachu
Image result for zapdos xy sprite gif

Zapdos

The only ones I bothered to update was adding Ralts and removing Torchic from A in the RSE section; forgive me if there are other errors. On average, most have 4 in S tier.

Two points I want to make:
  • Do you guys think it should be like RBY where there are tons of top/S tiers (the way it’s going) or should we split up S rank into plain S and S- ranks? I don’t think many of the other ranks warrant a distinction between them if we go the latter route.
  • As for raising things to S at all, I think Lilligant is an example I feel okay potentially rising to S tier based on your opinions assuming both Infernape2018’s and Ryota’s runs end with it doing well. Why? Because three of you-Magnus0, Ryota, and Infernape2018 give good evidence for it. At least 2 people tested it and the other provided great arguments for it. That cements reliability a lot more, particularly if people are able to post their runs with a mon soon after each other.
As a result of this, I feel if we’re gonna rise something to S, someone should nom it, and then two different people should concurrently run with it to give a great big picture of how the mon performs.

What do you guys think? I’ve been thinking a lot about this this weekend so I’d appreciate if we could settle on a consensus. Thank you for reading.
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
First of all, I promise this is not an attack on anybody. I want to express my thoughts on the S tier in general and see what you guys think. Nobody is wrong for wanting mons in S tier or any other tier, and every poster’s opinion is valid. I’m going to put my thoughts in spoiler tags so it doesn’t clutter the thread.
I think regular old S rank is becoming vastly different from the other games. A while back on page 11 I made a post showing the S tiers of all the other S tiers at the time of the post:
Spr 1b 063.png

Abra

Articuno

Clefairy

Diglett

Nidoran F

Nidoran M

Squirtle (RB)

Zapdos
Spr 2c 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Spr 2c 021.png

Spearow
Spr 2c 158.png

Totodile
Spr 3e 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Spr 3e 258.png

Mudkip
View attachment 178153
Ralts
Spr 3e 159.png

Croconaw
Spr 3e 196.png

Espeon
Spr 3e 196.png

Eevee (Espeon)
Spr 3e 135.png

Eevee (Jolteon)
Spr 3e 228.png

Houndour
Spr 3e 216.png

Teddiursa
Spr 4p 063.png

Abra (Trade)
Male

Bidoof
Spr 4p 390.png

Chimchar
Female

Starly

Braviary

Darumaka


Drilbur

Heracross

Magnemite

Mincinno (Hidden Grotto)

Aerodactyl

Charmander  sprite from X & Y

Charmander [X]
Charmander  sprite from X & Y

Charmander [Y]

Honedge

Riolu

Abra (Alakazam)

Magikarp

Mudkip

Torchic
Magikarp  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Magikarp
Magnemite  sprite from Sun & Moon

Magnemite
Popplio  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Popplio
Wingull  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Wingull
Hawlucha  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon

Hawlucha
Magnemite  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon

Magnemite
Oricorio  sprite from Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon & Sun & Moon

Oricorio

Aerodactyl
Spr 7s 140.png

Kabuto
Related image

Starter Eevee
Related image

Starter Pikachu
Image result for zapdos xy sprite gif

Zapdos

The only ones I bothered to update was adding Ralts and removing Torchic from A in the RSE section; forgive me if there are other errors. On average, most have 4 in S tier.

Two points I want to make:
  • Do you guys think it should be like RBY where there are tons of top/S tiers (the way it’s going) or should we split up S rank into plain S and S- ranks? I don’t think many of the other ranks warrant a distinction between them if we go the latter route.
  • As for raising things to S at all, I think Lilligant is an example I feel okay potentially rising to S tier based on your opinions assuming both Infernape2018’s and Ryota’s runs end with it doing well. Why? Because three of you-Magnus0, Ryota, and Infernape2018 give good evidence for it. At least 2 people tested it and the other provided great arguments for it. That cements reliability a lot more, particularly if people are able to post their runs with a mon soon after each other.
As a result of this, I feel if we’re gonna rise something to S, someone should nom it, and then two different people should concurrently run with it to give a great big picture of how the mon performs.

What do you guys think? I’ve been thinking a lot about this this weekend so I’d appreciate if we could settle on a consensus. Thank you for reading.
I support this, since S ranks are the most relevant things here. However, I propose we do the same if someone noms an S rank to drop (like how I did with Scraggy and Archen).

Also, I am saying that Throh is a contender for S rank, so someone might wanna start testing it, in White particularly. (S rank for White if it wasn't obvious).
 
Supdate 5

Fought everything in Twist Mountain and Route 7 and got everyone to 40 barring my new Lampent prior to Brycen.
v.S BrYcEN(such difficult)

Emolga(40): Acrobatic's nearly OHKO's Vanilish while Thunderbolt 2HKO's, since itt usually goes for AA T1 you win this easily. Beartic is only 3HKO'd by Acrobatics and instantly ends you with Icicle Crash. lol30defensecryogonlol
Results: B Tier. Shows suprising value in a disadvantaged matchup.

Lilligant@Miracle Seed(40): lol Vanilish is set-up bait. Get to +4 and wreck Brycen
Results: this is a joka S Tier.

Escavalier@Quick Claw(40): I R O N H E A D
results: It's super effective!

Simipour(40): BB OHKO's Vanilish and Cryogonal and 2HKO's Beartic. Persim Berry is all that is needed for Swagnanigans.
Results: easy S Tier sweep lol.

Liepard(40): Fake Out and Hone Claws allows a decent set up strategy against Vanilish, as Acid Armor isn't that big of a concern. Return polishes off Beartic, +2 Vani and Cryogonal in one shot at +3.
Results: good job garbocat A Tier.

Lampent@Eviolite(41): Flame Burst OHKO's Vanilish and 2HKO's Beartic and Cryogonal. Rock Slide does 35% lol and Auora Beam does even less.
Results: lol S Tier
 
I support this, since S ranks are the most relevant things here. However, I propose we do the same if someone noms an S rank to drop (like how I did with Scraggy and Archen).

Also, I am saying that Throh is a contender for S rank, so someone might wanna start testing it, in White particularly. (S rank for White if it wasn't obvious).
By “this,” do you mean the nomming method?
Or do you mean the mass S tier or S division?
For what it’s worth, both Stellar and I supported Throh in A rank based on these two posts, one of which was coincidentally the post on page 11:
My post on Throh: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ier-list-discussion-mkii.3646760/post-8051082

Stellar’s last Throh update: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ier-list-discussion-mkii.3646760/post-8043378

Also, this old post on page 11 is a mass organization of a bunch of early S tier posts for reference (probably need to ignore the ones from different threads, but please take some of my blunt opinions with a grain of salt as A) I was probably a jerk in some of those posts and B) My opinions have likely changed since then). If anything, it should show the thread’s cohesive thoughts on Darumaka:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ier-list-discussion-mkii.3646760/post-8051623

I want to note I’ve brought up my concern on addressing the S tier yesterday in the OI Discord. I’m gonna try to not directly repeat what people said there because I’d rather that they say it themselves here instead of me saying it for them (not due to language or anything, but instead out of respect).

Darumaka, in spite of what I said higher up about S being a formality, is the S tier with the most discussion, including a few detractors. I think a theoretical S- rank would fit both it and Drilbur well. As for testing Daru I’m not sure if it needs more because we’ve discussed it like crazy and both Ryota (and I currently) have/are testing it. Maybe a fresh opinion would help, if possible. I think while the 20-ish level grind to Darmanitan isn’t quite a babying period (in contrast to Yoshi’s post), Hustle can screw you over sometimes and neither Elesa nor Clay are watertight matchups. Drilbur on the other hand, even after it gets Dig, still doesn’t really take off until late 20s/early 30s when it gets Rock Slide and later EQ and Excadrill. Elesa could probably trump it if it had to rely on the inconsistency of Rock Tomb.

Archen is a shaky S rank. I think the endgame with it needs to be tested by at least one more person to determine if it is suited for S at all.

Scraggy needs a lot of testing of the Moxie variant.

Put Tynamo in D.
 
Alright, let’s get back on topic. Remember, this is not a Let’s Play/solo thread. Orange Islands SQSA Thread is a better place for these questions, so please continue this discussion over there if possible. I say this not to turn people away, but because both DHR and and Codaroll have already had to pop in and say this isn’t the thread for that sort of thing, and I don’t want it derailing discussion (nothing personal bdt2002). Incidentally, Liepard is in D tier currently, though I don’t think anyone will deny it sucks.

__

Do you guys think these matchups of my team are satisfactory for Elesa? I’m playing on cart so I can’t go back once done. I only ask because she’s one of the harder to judge matchups due to Volt Switch.
Munna (29): This one’s weird, and hard to judge because the fight is entirely based around damage ranges and Volt Switch. Psybeam is a range to 2HKO Emolga, and I think might be a range to 3HKO Zebstrika. Now, her Emolga only do around 15-21 damage of your 90 HP wither physical or special moves, so you outlast them fine, but it’s so unpredictable. At the very least, you should be able to get Elesa to waste her two Hyper Potions. X Special is odd because you unfortunately still aren’t guaranteed to 2HKO Zeb who 3HKOs you with Spark. Yawn and Nightmare strats are hard to pull off thanks to Volt Switch, but they also cause close the gaps on the ranges (even using Light Screen doesn’t prompt the Ai to stop using Volt Switch).

This matchup isn’t super clear-cut, so I’ll just say you should either be able to waste her healing items or dent an Emolga. Arguably the most shaky out of my mons.

Dewott (27): Razor Shell cleanly 2HKOs Emolga. Emolga Volt Switch seems to barely be a close 3HKO with Eviolite on. However, since they have Quick Attack it doesn’t really matter. Zebstrika Spark cleanly 2HKOs you with Eviolite, so I’d imagine Volt Switch is the same. You do about 3/4 of Zebstrika’s health with Dig.

Not good but not useless either, you can at least dent a mon.

Darumaka (27): With Eviolite, Volt Switch doesn’t 3HKO you (even from Zebstrika). It’s debatable if you should setup or not, due to Static and potential Hustle misses. Note this might be due to my Brave nature and Attack IV range of 20-25, but Darumaka OHKOed both Emolga with Fire Punch without Charcoal. If you Dig on a Volt Switch to Zebstrika you OHKO it.

So the fight should go like this:

Emolga Volt Switch to Emolga which you OHKO turn 1.
Emolga Volt Switch to Zebstrika while you Dig to OHKO next turn.
You eat another Volt Switch from Emolga and kill turn 4.

Note I didn’t use Facade strats here, but they seem to be acceptable based on Ryota’s experiences.

Sawk (27): Aerial Ace is a range to 2HKO if she gets high (I think max) rolls, and Rock Tomb is iffy with accuracy. You need a lot of luck to sweep without healing; you need to land 4 Rock Tomb uses in a row and hope one Emolga goes for something like Pursuit. Zebstrika seems to 3HKO you with Spark while you OHKO with Dig (not Soft Sand boosted).

Gigalith (28): Pretty good. Rock Slide OHKOs Emolga and 2HKOs Zebstrika. Interestingly, Strength also 2HKOs all her mons, though you need to watch out for Static on Emolga. If you attach Quick Claw it gets even easier.

Another question: Should mons that counter Elesa count more than other major battle matchups? I think Palpitoad, Rock Slide Gigalith/Drilbur/Dwebble, Eviolite Gurdurr/Conkeldurr, Krokorok and to an extent Lilligant counter her, especially the first three options.

Also I moved Solosis to A based on Infernape2018’s opinions and the other positive word-of-mouth it got in the past.

And if everyone else doesn’t mind, please express your opinion on Magnus0’s nominations above. I want to stay out of it at the moment to break the stale formula of the thread; as tier leader I need to judge based on consensus rather than my own opinions (unless I’m testing a mon). I think part of the problem is we will bring up a mon, we don’t get consistent comments on it, and move onto another without properly determining its placement; I want to change this so the process can be more efficient. I think once mine and Ryota’s runs are done we should get a firm consensus on the S tiers so it’ll stop being a prevalent subject (which is my fault admittedly).

Thank you all for contributing to this thread, and your opinions are all equally valid.
Ah, I see. Sorry about that. I just wasn't sure where to post this. I was completely oblivious to this message as my usual Internet access source, being my tablet, is having some issues rn, and I'm just now getting on the forums for the first time in over a week through my Wii U's Internet Browser of all things.

Quite frankly, I wasn't sure where to ask my questions, as they all felt too specific to this game. Apologies in advance. (Side note, the tablet issue is also why my thread wasn't posted last week like I said it would be.)

EDIT: I waanted to mention that I'm sorry for my talent in messing up conversations. Just out of curiosity also, I wanted to ask why someone named their Litwick after me. I was just scrolling through and I saw that. Huh. Eh, no big deal. Carry on with the conversations.

EDIT #2: I'm seeing a lot of people wanting Petilil higher up on the list, and as someone who's using a Lilligant on their team in White at the moment alongside other top tiers, I can say that I am in support of this. Quiver Dance Lilligant is broken imo, and despite being a version exclusive, you can work around that and Petilil's mediocre pre-evolution stats with the help of an in game trade in Black, as well as with moves it gets like Growth and whatnot. I'm already a fan of Grass mons that get multiple spore/powder moves as well. So yeah, can I add one nomination for S Tier? (I'm at Route 6 rn, stopping for a Foongus Shiny hunt lol)
 
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