Pokemon Black and White In-Game Tier List Discussion (MkII)

[DrumstickGaming]

Lack of bulk was referring more to Vanillite, which is mainly what makes me think it's fine at C (the fact it is really weak as Vanillite). Also, I think that it struggles greatly against physical threats (since you did remind me of MCoat), because ultimately its typing defensively sucks and its bulk as luxe isn't relatively high (not low, but I'd say average)

I'm not saying it's some defensive behemoth. This whole article proves why pure Ice type sucks defensively (written by Codraroll).

Vanillite doesn't come barreling out of the gate either. I know 65 Special Attack isn't great, but there is the option of picking it up as a Vanillish at Dragonspiral Tower later (albeit undermining the "not late" thing). Icy Wind is a good starting move, and Avalanche even off 50 base Attack can do things.

I'm just saying if you do go for the dopey ice cream cone, it's actually somewhat viable in the end (you could even set up Light Screen on Shauntal or Caitlin). Not amazing, but perfectly usable.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I also used Vanilluxe in that White run and the above opinions are consistent with what I thought, C rank is good for it. Good offensive typing, fine bulk, does fine with just ice spam.

Finished Skyla, ran it with each team member which takes a hell of a lot longer when you aren't using an emulator.

swoobat (35): set up cms and swept but needed 2x potion support because enermy swoobat knows physical moves. maybe could have swept with only 1 potion, wasn't tracking cms closely.

swoobat round 2 (after testing everything): two shot enemy swoobat immediately with air slash, then set up one CM on unfezant and clean swept.

gigalith (34): Rock Slide Smash Swoobat. ROck Slide Smash Swanna (Aqua Ring). Rock Slide Smash Unfezant. 3 hits 3 kills.

stoutland (35): Crunch 2 shots Swoobat. Return 2 shots Unfezant. Return 2 shots Swanna. 15% HP remaining post fight.

seismitoed (36): Scald 2HKOs Swoobat, receiving 45% damage in return. Scald 2HKOs Swanna, receiving 20% in return, Scxald does a negligible amount of damage to Swanna before fainting.

escavalier (35): 2HKOs with X-Scissor, took 60% from two Acrobatics, and one on a crit. Unfezant is a terrible mon that can only do 20% to Esca. Slash 3HKOs in return. Swanna is also weaksauce and 4HKOs, getting 3HKOd in return, but flinches are annoying af.

serperior (37): stomps pretty hard, Acro does only 25% at +2 def and Swoobat can't keep up with boosting. OHKOd Swoobat with Return from +4, Unfezant barely survived


Gigalith has been great since evolving, Palpitoed/Seismitoed is feeling weak lately, Escavalier has some lovely stats, and Stoutland is doing fine, though still too weak to OHKO things. Swoobat is falling off pretty fast and hard.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Glad the thread has been getting back on track.

Is there anything in particular the thread wants me to test in White? Aside from a handful of things I think the list is kinda settling.

I'm definitely testing Snivy, Simipour, and likely Throh as I need something else earlygame. Solosis is likely. I will be running with a full party this time. The general consensus seems to be that Vanillite will likely stay in C, so I'm unsure if it still needs to be tested anymore.

That said, what are two mons in anything but E tier that haven't seen much discussion? Druddigon comes to mind, though I can't see that rising above C at all, so it might not be worth it. Golett's place seems set in stone honestly-it's just too late to be in C even if it is used optimally.

Note it'll be a bit before the playthrough starts, as I have some homework to catch up on first.

Oh yeah, and if we are gonna do write-ups again, here's an example from awhile back:
Darumaka

Availability: Route 4, 40%
Stats: 90 Attack, 50 speed, and 70 HP are good as Darumaka. Hustle sucks but makes you hit super hard. As Darmanitan, you get 105 HP, 95 Speed, and a monstrous 140 Attack backed by Sheer Force. Both defenses are below 60 in both forms, but the HP provides minor durability.
Typing: Fire is decent offensively with not too many weaknesses. Average.
Movepool: Fire Punch at 22 is pretty much all you need. Belly Drum is mostly overkill at level 30, and Flare Blitz at 35 is basically “I WILL raze anything in front of me.” Only really bulky resists can take one, but the recoil means it’s impractical against mooks. Dig, Rock Tomb, and Work Up can be taught easily via TM, and Headbutt (starting move) is decent until Thrash (level 27) or max power Return. Superpower at level 47 or Brick Break via TM help. Bulldoze and Rock Slide are decent TMs as well, though the latter requires a detour to Mistralton Cave.
Major Battles: All of them, save maybe Clay. If you can get off an attack on Clay’s Excadrill, you can smack it hard. Rivals/N fall to sheer power of Darmanitan. You can probably beat Skyla’s Swoobat and Unfezant but Swanna is a no-go, while Brycen is a joke and you could probably even take on Drayden’s Fraxure. Against the League, you can handle each member pretty well aside from Shauntal. A third of N’s team falls to Darmanitan as does Ghetsis’s Bisharp (you can also smack Bouffalant with Brick Break/Superpower, not so for Hydreigon due to Surf)
Additional Comments: Darmanitan is easily one of the best mons in the game. Hustle can be annoying as Darumaka but it doesn’t detract from its overall usability, and do note X Accuracy can be bought in Narcrene City to remedy this to an extent.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I was going to edit my post and say something about Brycen but there's nothing to say, Escavalier picked up Iron Head early on and roflstomped the entire thing

 

[Kurai_Seishen]

Warning: Long ass rant with a mix of bias and actual in game experience incoming.

I don't like Vanilluxe. Because of Vanillite's high evolution levels and because I don't like to grind for anything in Pokemon games, it's always too weak to handle the match ups it would like. I think I'm going to hide the actual match ups because it's quite long.

Hide

• Let's start off with the rivals.
  • Ironic as it is since Water typically overshadows Ice, the best starter to use with Vanillite is Oshawott. Not only do they cover each other's weaknesses, using Oshawott means your rivals will have Snivy and Pansage (Cheren and Bianca respectively), who are obviously weak to Vanillite. Obviously, Emboar and Simisear are NOT good match ups, while Samurott and Simipour are also no nos for resisting you.
  • Let's get specific. With Cheren, Vanill beats Unfezant and Liepard (or Tranquil, either way). One weak ass Pokemon and one Ice weak Pokemon is enough to say a good match up.
  • For Bianca... you're not so good. Musharna's really bulky and powerful, Stoutland has high enough defences and a strong Normal STAB. Just use things that Mush and Stout are weak to. Overall, Vanill has its moments with the rivals, but usually there are better things to use.
• In Clay's Gym YOU HAVE to grind Vanillite to Level 35, when it starts at 20 at the lowest by the way, for it to be effective so it can evolve into Vanillish; there's a lot of strong Grounds and likely some Rock coverage. And Excadrill's overpowered ass is probably taking you down anyways. Not exactly a good start.
• You should be a Vanillish for Skyla, however, and that's where it'll obviously succeed. However, what really hurts is that there is a lot of fully evolved Pokemon, meaning Vanillish will be taking a good deal of damage, since its stats are kind of bad.
• Theoretically, Vanillish resists Brycen's Ices and counters with Flash Cannon, or Mirror Shot if Flash Cannon hasn't appeared yet (forget where it is). However, just use a Fire or a Fighter.
• In general, Vanillite does passably against Team Plasma. The Scraftys will likely give you trouble, but the Sandiles are obviously weak to you and Watchogs and Liepards are roadkill on principle of being Watchog and Liepard.
• Then, Drayden/Iris. You're probably not getting a Vanilluxe by this point without some grinding, and even then there's a shit ton of strong physical attacks to be weathered. If you actually do have a Vanilluxe then you're most likely set, but a Vanillish is definitely too weak to do anything here.
• The Elite Four basically goes like this. However, be warned that Vanillish is doing jack and shit to these guys, so I'm assuming you have a Vanilluxe, even if you have to grind to get one.
  • Shauntal: Beats Golurk, loses to Chandelure and Jellicent, is neutral to Cofagrigus (who still has a strong STAB Shadow Ball, however). Use something better.
  • Grimsley: Beats Krookodile and Liepard (though both are faster than you and have powerful STABs), loses badly to Bisharp and Scrafty. Use something better.
  • Caitlin: Beats Sigilyph and is neutral to everything else. Unfortunately everything here has a really freaking strong STAB Psychic, and Musharna, Reuniclus, and Gothitelle are all pretty bulky what with high HP and high Special Defence stats. Probably Vanilluxe's best match at the end game, sad as it is to say, but still use something better.
  • Marshall: ROFLMFAO
• N: Loses badly to Reshiram, stands a chance against Zekrom but will take a great deal of damage from STAB Fusion Bolt (and Zek has Light Screen iirc), can only OHKO Archeops if it doesn't OHKO you first with Stone Edge (please do not consider gambling against Stone Edge's accuracy a reliable strategy to beat it), loses to Carracosta (though 'Costa doesn't exactly have the best Special Defence and HP), the mirror match with Vanilluxe is a mirror match, badly loses to Klinklang, while Zoroark even if its frail has a strong and fast Dark STAB and either Focus Blast or Flamethrower, maybe both. Either way, Vanilluxe is pretty damn miserable here.
• Ghetsis: You lose badly to Bisharp, Bouffalant probably OHKOs you with a STAB Head Charge, Cofagrigus is neutral but dangerous for Toxic Stalling, don't even try Seismitoad with its STAB Earthquake, and Eelektross while a bit frail and slow knows Flamethrower. Oh, right, Hydreigon. Yeah, Fire Blast OHKOs you and its other attacks are probably super freaking strong as well. No way you're beating it without PP Stalling, which is such an absolutely amazing strategy in game, isn't it??? Overall, don't use Vanilluxe here.

I just find Vanillite to be a completely redundant addition most of the time, especially since its match ups in important battles usually aren't too notable or are flat out bad. And remember, its stats are kind of bad before it's a Vanilluxe, making it hard to use. I just don't find Vanillite to ever be an extraordinary, and as said before I don't think it brings anything to the table that others don't, and it's overall a weak Pokemon with not so good stats, high evolution levels, a shoddy movepool, and lots of weaknesses. I mean, there are only four Pokemon out of the Elite Four's sixteen that Vanilluxe can reliably beat (and those Mons besides Golurk are still have both strong STABs and higher Speeds), eight that flat out destroy it, while the rest have something iffy about them that makes the match up less notable. And it's basically unusable against N and Ghetsis! It's also only good against one of the four Gyms you have it for, one of them is something of a mirror match and therefore kind of pathetic, and the other two are only recommendable if you grind the hell out of it for it to evolve.

And I'll be frank, I personally recommend Tynamo over Vanillite. Yes, you read that right. The Tynamo phase fucking sucks, but keep in mind that you have a whole Gym that it eats up, and if you decide to go to Routes 17 and 18 after getting Surf (which in my opinion, you should for the experience and items), then you have tons of Waters to eat up as well. And after all that pain, you get an actually good Pokemon with a nice type, good stats, a nice ability that helps its resistances, and a pretty sizeable movepool, none of which describe Vanilluxe. You also get to fully evolve your Eelektrik immediately since there's a Thunder Stone in the bottom most floor of Chargestone Cave (where Tynamo is most common), and Eelektross is actually pretty strong for the mid-late game, especially when most Pokemon still aren't full evolved save for crapmons. That isn't to say that Tynamo is good, or more efficient rather as this community likes to measure quality by, but I think Eelektross is a lot stronger than Vanilluxe, but the former still deserves D for how bad it is before it evolves so what does that say about Vanilluxe who's weaker?

In my opinion, Vanillite is no better than D Rank.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Warning: Long ass rant with a mix of bias and actual in game experience incoming.

I don't like Vanilluxe. Because of Vanillite's high evolution levels and because I don't like to grind for anything in Pokemon games, it's always too weak to handle the match ups it would like. I think I'm going to hide the actual match ups because it's quite long.

Hide

• Let's start off with the rivals.
  • Ironic as it is since Water typically overshadows Ice, the best starter to use with Vanillite is Oshawott. Not only do they cover each other's weaknesses, using Oshawott means your rivals will have Snivy and Pansage (Cheren and Bianca respectively), who are obviously weak to Vanillite. Obviously, Emboar and Simisear are NOT good match ups, while Samurott and Simipour are also no nos for resisting you.
  • Let's get specific. With Cheren, Vanill beats Unfezant and Liepard (or Tranquil, either way). One weak ass Pokemon and one Ice weak Pokemon is enough to say a good match up.
  • For Bianca... you're not so good. Musharna's really bulky and powerful, Stoutland has high enough defences and a strong Normal STAB. Just use things that Mush and Stout are weak to. Overall, Vanill has its moments with the rivals, but usually there are better things to use.
• In Clay's Gym YOU HAVE to grind Vanillite to Level 35, when it starts at 20 at the lowest by the way, for it to be effective so it can evolve into Vanillish; there's a lot of strong Grounds and likely some Rock coverage. And Excadrill's overpowered ass is probably taking you down anyways. Not exactly a good start.
• You should be a Vanillish for Skyla, however, and that's where it'll obviously succeed. However, what really hurts is that there is a lot of fully evolved Pokemon, meaning Vanillish will be taking a good deal of damage, since its stats are kind of bad.
• Theoretically, Vanillish resists Brycen's Ices and counters with Flash Cannon, or Mirror Shot if Flash Cannon hasn't appeared yet (forget where it is). However, just use a Fire or a Fighter.
• In general, Vanillite does passably against Team Plasma. The Scraftys will likely give you trouble, but the Sandiles are obviously weak to you and Watchogs and Liepards are roadkill on principle of being Watchog and Liepard.
• Then, Drayden/Iris. You're probably not getting a Vanilluxe by this point without some grinding, and even then there's a shit ton of strong physical attacks to be weathered. If you actually do have a Vanilluxe then you're most likely set, but a Vanillish is definitely too weak to do anything here.
• The Elite Four basically goes like this. However, be warned that Vanillish is doing jack and shit to these guys, so I'm assuming you have a Vanilluxe, even if you have to grind to get one.
  • Shauntal: Beats Golurk, loses to Chandelure and Jellicent, is neutral to Cofagrigus (who still has a strong STAB Shadow Ball, however). Use something better.
  • Grimsley: Beats Krookodile and Liepard (though both are faster than you and have powerful STABs), loses badly to Bisharp and Scrafty. Use something better.
  • Caitlin: Beats Sigilyph and is neutral to everything else. Unfortunately everything here has a really freaking strong STAB Psychic, and Musharna, Reuniclus, and Gothitelle are all pretty bulky what with high HP and high Special Defence stats. Probably Vanilluxe's best match at the end game, sad as it is to say, but still use something better.
  • Marshall: ROFLMFAO
• N: Loses badly to Reshiram, stands a chance against Zekrom but will take a great deal of damage from STAB Fusion Bolt (and Zek has Light Screen iirc), can only OHKO Archeops if it doesn't OHKO you first with Stone Edge (please do not consider gambling against Stone Edge's accuracy a reliable strategy to beat it), loses to Carracosta (though 'Costa doesn't exactly have the best Special Defence and HP), the mirror match with Vanilluxe is a mirror match, badly loses to Klinklang, while Zoroark even if its frail has a strong and fast Dark STAB and either Focus Blast or Flamethrower, maybe both. Either way, Vanilluxe is pretty damn miserable here.
• Ghetsis: You lose badly to Bisharp, Bouffalant probably OHKOs you with a STAB Head Charge, Cofagrigus is neutral but dangerous for Toxic Stalling, don't even try Seismitoad with its STAB Earthquake, and Eelektross while a bit frail and slow knows Flamethrower. Oh, right, Hydreigon. Yeah, Fire Blast OHKOs you and its other attacks are probably super freaking strong as well. No way you're beating it without PP Stalling, which is such an absolutely amazing strategy in game, isn't it??? Overall, don't use Vanilluxe here.

I just find Vanillite to be a completely redundant addition most of the time, especially since its match ups in important battles usually aren't too notable or are flat out bad. And remember, its stats are kind of bad before it's a Vanilluxe, making it hard to use. I just don't find Vanillite to ever be an extraordinary, and as said before I don't think it brings anything to the table that others don't, and it's overall a weak Pokemon with not so good stats, high evolution levels, a shoddy movepool, and lots of weaknesses. I mean, there are only four Pokemon out of the Elite Four's sixteen that Vanilluxe can reliably beat (and those Mons besides Golurk are still have both strong STABs and higher Speeds), eight that flat out destroy it, while the rest have something iffy about them that makes the match up less notable. And it's basically unusable against N and Ghetsis! It's also only good against one of the four Gyms you have it for, one of them is something of a mirror match and therefore kind of pathetic, and the other two are only recommendable if you grind the hell out of it for it to evolve.

And I'll be frank, I personally recommend Tynamo over Vanillite. Yes, you read that right. The Tynamo phase fucking sucks, but keep in mind that you have a whole Gym that it eats up, and if you decide to go to Routes 17 and 18 after getting Surf (which in my opinion, you should for the experience and items), then you have tons of Waters to eat up as well. And after all that pain, you get an actually good Pokemon with a nice type, good stats, a nice ability that helps its resistances, and a pretty sizeable movepool, none of which describe Vanilluxe. You also get to fully evolve your Eelektrik immediately since there's a Thunder Stone in the bottom most floor of Chargestone Cave (where Tynamo is most common), and Eelektross is actually pretty strong for the mid-late game, especially when most Pokemon still aren't full evolved save for crapmons. That isn't to say that Tynamo is good, or more efficient rather as this community likes to measure quality by, but I think Eelektross is a lot stronger than Vanilluxe, but the former still deserves D for how bad it is before it evolves so what does that say about Vanilluxe who's weaker?

In my opinion, Vanillite is no better than D Rank.

Oh boy...

Okay, let's start with the positives. Your argument is strong and pretty well-informed. But, I think saying Tynamo is better than Vanilluxe is wayyyyyyy overselling Tynamo. Never mind the fact I don't think you should compare an Electric and an Ice type, like at all. And if you want an Electric in Chargestone just get a Joltik. Anyway...

Encounter rates: Vanillite can come as high as level 26 in dark grass in Cold Storage at a 30% encounter rate. 9 levels to 35 isn't unreasonable when Audino is 90% in the same area. Tynamo, meanwhile, comes at a friggin 8% encounter rate (on the second floor), so finding it is terrible.

Stats: Even Vanillite clearly outclasses Tynamo here, by a clean 30 points (305 vs. 275). Tynamo has arguably worse bulk than Patrat, another E tier sack of garbage. It will not be taking any hits. You will not be facing mooks with this thing. And you have to put up with it for 12 levels, when literally any mon in Chargestone Cave both has higher stats and is easier to use (though you do have the Lucky Egg). Elektrik are Vanillish are comparable since they have a BST gap of 10 (with Eelektrik winning) but you won't have the former very long and can evolve right away...Vanilluxe also beats Eelektross in raw stats and has comparable Special Attack, while not always going last. While you have Eelektross longer, the superior Drayden matchup somewhat alleviates this, and it's only like a 8 level difference anyway.

Matchups: Ice cream wise, I'd say you'd likely beat at least two of Clay's mons if evolved. I'll say this matchup isn't exactly favorable.
For Tynamo, I'd bet that Skyla is not a clean matchup. You might 2HKO things, but your paper bulk will let you survive almost nothing. Contrast this to Vanillish, who likely has no problem OHKOing Swoobat sans Amnesia and can stomp their other mons because they have Special moves.
Brycen: Don't say use a Fire or Fighting here and not acknowledge Vanillish's contributions. Vanillish could easily handle Brycen's Vanillish, and Cryogonal can likely be handled by Return (assuming no Reflect is used) because Cryogonal has the physical bulk of a wet paper bag in a hurricane with lightning smiting it from above, or just use Flash Cannon. What's Cryogonal gonna do back? Aurora Beam? Beartic is shaky, you do wanna use another mon for that. Eelektross can work here but i doubt it muscles through all three with 40 Speed.

Drayden/Iris: "...but a Vanillish is definitely too weak to do anything here."

Are you kidding me? Vanillish can probably OHKO the Fraxure and the lolDeino used. Only Druddigon really poses a problem. And the leader? The one who never got a hit on me because of DD Dragon Tail? That's not bad at all, and with a four team of mons I was at 47 at this point. Eelektross isn't really doing much here in comparison aside from taking on one mon (even with negative priority I doubt it muscles through with resisted STAB).
E4: Matchups here are fine, albeit slightly better for Eelektross, though I doubt the latter will sweep anyone.
I'd say Eelektross is also better for N and Ghetsis, but not by a whole lot (against N, you can do things but Ghetsis is neutral, and you likely can only get one hit off before dying there).

No way Vanillite is going in D. It has problems but is easy to find, isn't a total joke to use unlike Tynamo against mooks, and it has a BST most other mons can only dream of.

Tynamo, while being usable in the end, fits the criteria of E tier to me. Pain to find, pain to use, and in the end you get a mon that doesn't even hit all that hard-no weaknesses are overrated when you are likely 2HKOed by most endgame foes. Sigilyph might be a 10%, but at least when I can catch it Sigilyph has no problem slaughtering mooks by the dozen. Even if we aren't judging by rarity, I don't feel comfortable to moving the no weakness eel to D that much-it has almost no noteworthy matchups and the E4 is likely trading a 1v1 at best sans Grimsley.

Heck, let's compare Tynamo to another Magikarp Power mon that comes around the same time in Litwick. They actually have equal BST in 275, so the comparison is somewhat justified. Both are tough to raise and evolve around roughly Brycen levels, but if you go for them, they are some of the better choices for in-game stat-wise. You can even get Chandelure by Brycen if you go a little out of your way (I'd assume Mistralton Cave only takes about 15 minutes to reach and traverse with Flash). I'd imagine you can probably get Lampent by Brycen, as Litwick's growth is Medium Slow compared to Tynamo's Slow. With the Fire Blast TM obtainable at Iccirus, even with only Lampent, you could eat Brycen alive with only 1 X Accuracy (you should barely Speed creep Beartic), though you can probably do it with Flame Burst. Back to the comparison, Chandelure only wins in 5 stat points to Eelektross, so again, similar stats. The difference that makes Chandelure B and not D or E? A superb offensive typing, actually good Speed of 80 that is great for the final 6 (7 if you count the legend) battles and 145 Special Attack is bonkers (second only to Reshiram in Unova, highest non-legendary in general, and tying for 10th highest of all Pokemon at the time). It helps you don't really have to rely on Fire Blast, as Shadow Ball is better in most circumstances, and Flame Burst can still get the job done against Klinklang (you might need Fire Blast for Bisharp).

By no means is Tynamo gutter trash when fully evolved, I just...don't recommend it compared to pretty much anything else you can catch in the surrounding areas save for maybe Foongus.

That said I respect your opinion and your boldness to speak up against the majority, and your research is pretty sound so you have a fairly well-constructed argument even if I don't totally agree with it. This is in no way saying my arguments are superior simply because I created the tier list; everyone has a voice and can put forth valid arguments, with nobody being an exception.

Venipede: Surprisingly, I feel this to be a C tier mon. Venipede was hitting jack all, but once it got the eviolite, it refused to die. If things got hairy, I could just send out eviolite Whirlpede to take a hit or two while I healed up whoever was dying, and when it became Scolipede and got Megahorn around the flying gym, it really picked up the slack against Brycen and Drayden, and had a field day against two of the elite 4. Not a perfect pokemon, but one that pleasantly surprised me.

I'm not sure on this. Currently, Venipede is D, backed by myself and one other. Maybe I was underselling it again, but I don't know. Megahorn is its only move pretty much (again, Poison Jab is pretty auxiliary and will never finish off anything) and while you can TM X-Scissor, I see it missing KOs with it. I also don't see it sweeping Grimsley super well unless you use Iron Defense (again, has sparse use), Krook has Intimidate, and Bisharp has physical bulk while countering with Aerial Ace. Liepard also has Aerial Ace, though you might outspeed. Eviolite Whirlipede is a good tank, though there are several other mons the Eviolite can also go to. Regardless, I'm not using it a third time (I used it before testing in this thread too). Someone else can test it. Pretty meh gym matchups don't help it's case, and it doesn't have many targets to hit with N and Ghetisis. 90 base Attack only goes so far and Megahorn isn't super reliable despite almost never missing for me. You can't exactly set up an X Accuracy in Caitlin's face either. I will concede Scolipede is probably one of the best choices for Caitlin, but imo that's it's only real shining moment, and a plethora of top tier mons like Scrafty, Krook, Chandelure, etc. can also deal with her well so Scolipede is far from the only answer. If this "best mon" thing was the case for Marshal instead (it's not, he has Stone Edge) because nothing reliably deals with him, I could maybe see a C rank, because Marshal is probably the hardest opponent in the game, outranking even Ghetsis who can be easily set up on by almost anything with Substitute. Evolving early is is not really a pro when you lose titanic Eviolite bulk and are stuck with Bug Bite and Poison Tail for a few more levels (mine evolved pre-Clay).

I agree with your other rankings aside from maybe Pansage though.

Moved Woobat up to D due to general consensus. Also moved Yamask up to D because you can make it work, although it's not great.

Discussion Slate: Deerling, Axew (mostly if it can sweep endgame), Venipede, Munna, monkeys (are they D or E tier? I don't think so.)

 

[Magnus0]

Earlier on this thread:

D tier is just right for Tynamo.

Now:

Oh boy...
Tynamo, while being usable in the end, fits the criteria of E tier to me.

I don't mean to be rude, but your opinions can be pretty inconsistant sometimes.

First you accuse someone of comparing Vanillite to Tynamo, because they have different types and different roles. Then you apperently think it's okay to compare Tynamo to Litwick. Even though the comparison looks more justified at first because Tynamo and Litwick follow a very similar evolution structure (shit pre-evo, okay but late mid-evo and stone final-evo), it still doesn't really tell you anything meaningful about either pokemon. Like yeah, Litwick is better, but that has nothing to do with Tynamo's placement.

All I really got out of your comparison is bias for Litwick on your part. The whole comparison feels like a virtue sign for Litwick: 'look guys, it really doesn't suck, trust me!' If you are actually using Litwick and use the arguments you used to prove something meaningful about Litwicks viability, then that is absolutely fine. However, you brought all those arguments up for an ultimately pointless comparison instead. That is why I get the idea that you have some bias for Litwick based on that comparison.

A similar thing happens with your opinion on Snivy. It cost me a lot of work to convince you that it should be in B, and you did actually agree in the end and put it in B. However, every time Snivy comes up it seems like you really don't actually want it to be there. See some pretty charged comments like:

I'd sooner keep Snivy in B forever than raise Pansear there.

Way to throw shade on two pokemon at once. It seems like bias against both Pansear and Snivy.

Then one guy proposes Snivy should be in C and BAM, Snivy is immediately dropped again without rurther discussion. Awfully convenient.

Now I'm definitely not saying that you shouldn't have dropped Snivy or anything, as I might be biased on Snivy myself. However, I do think you could ask for some more discussion about a certain pokemon before changing its tier instead of pointing to a post you happen to agree with and then just making the decision yourself.

Again, I really don't want to tick you off or be unreasonable or anything, so please tell me if I'm wrong with these assumptions of mine. I just felt like pointing out how I felt because ultimately the most important thing is that each pokemon will be judged and tiered accurately.

 

[Ryota Mitarai]

Update on my run:

-Gigalith stomped Burgh completely (grinded a Roggenrola via Battle Company)

-Gigalith also stomped Elesa (Rock Blast was used to OHKO Zebstrika).

-Gothita learned Psyshock, making it sort of a mixed sweeper that uses its better stat. Pretty nice if you ask me.

-Evolved Gothita

-Caught Minccino, evolved it before Clay

-I had 2 replays here since I knew both Sawk and Cinccino could have some matchups; Sawk destroys his whole team, Cinccino does as well bar Exca.

Regarding my mons' viability atm (Sawk/Gothorita/Cinccino/Gigalith):

-Sawk: This thing is so solid. I run it atm with Scope Lens + Energy + Karate Chop for guaranteed crits. Really useful to ignore Intimidate debuffs. Low Sweep also allows me to debuf some fast threats. Brick Break hits really hard anything unboosted. If it continues this way, I will nom it to S rank.

-Gothorita: It was a bit weak in the beginning, but became rather stronger. Psyshock and Psybeam allow me essentially to hit whichever defense I want. It also has Black Glasses + Faint Attack to pmuch act as my Psychic counter for now.

-Cinccino: As Minccino, Tail Slap needed to hit like 4-5 times to OHKO stuff. However, once it evolved, this changed a lot. Cinccino needs 3 for more bulky threats and 2 for frailer threats. Still bit luck dependant with accuracy and amount of hits, but at least there are cases where I only depend on accuracy. Swift is also useful for full accuracy move (it hits decently hard, surprisingly). I have Encore, which allows me to shut down anything that tries to use a status move (and the AI doesn't know how to switch). I couldn't Encore Clay's Exca into Hone Claws, sadly, it just went for Bulldoze. I also have Sing in the back, but I haven't used it much.

-Gigalith: Really solid atm. Bulky and hits hard. A little bit slow. I feel like if it continues this way, it def needs to rise to B rank. It also has Rock Slide for powerful STAB, Rock Blast for killing Sturdy users more efficiently and Iron Defense which allows me to annoy physical users.

I am headed towards Chargestone Cave, will make more updates once I feel I have advanced enough.

EDIT: My levels were around 31 when I faced Clay, thus pretty much equal.

 

[Giratina93]

I'm not sure on this. Currently, Venipede is D, backed by myself and one other. Maybe I was underselling it again, but I don't know. Megahorn is its only move pretty much (again, Poison Jab is pretty auxiliary and will never finish off anything) and while you can TM X-Scissor, I see it missing KOs with it. I also don't see it sweeping Grimsley super well unless you use Iron Defense (again, has sparse use), Krook has Intimidate, and Bisharp has physical bulk while countering with Aerial Ace. Liepard also has Aerial Ace, though you might outspeed. Eviolite Whirlipede is a good tank, though there are several other mons the Eviolite can also go to. Regardless, I'm not using it a third time (I used it before testing in this thread too). Someone else can test it. Pretty meh gym matchups don't help it's case, and it doesn't have many targets to hit with N and Ghetisis. 90 base Attack only goes so far and Megahorn isn't super reliable despite almost never missing for me. You can't exactly set up an X Accuracy in Caitlin's face either. I will concede Scolipede is probably one of the best choices for Caitlin, but imo that's it's only real shining moment, and a plethora of top tier mons like Scrafty, Krook, Chandelure, etc. can also deal with her well so Scolipede is far from the only answer. If this "best mon" thing was the case for Marshal instead (it's not, he has Stone Edge) because nothing reliably deals with him, I could maybe see a C rank, because Marshal is probably the hardest opponent in the game, outranking even Ghetsis who can be easily set up on by almost anything with Substitute. Evolving early is is not really a pro when you lose titanic Eviolite bulk and are stuck with Bug Bite and Poison Tail for a few more levels (mine evolved pre-Clay).

I agree with your other rankings aside from maybe Pansage though.

In regards to Grimsley, neither Krook or Liepard were able to take down Scoli, since Scoli outsped them both, and even with the Intimidate, Megahorn was a clean 2HKO, and Krook's earthquake wasn't enough to kill it. I did get lucky against Scrafty, who went for Sand attack followed by Crunch, so Scoli didn't care about that, and Bisharp... Yeah, I left that to Samurott. Still, Scoli did what I needed it to do against Grimsley, and Caitlyn got slaughtered with Megahorns (and a flinch from Rock Slide against the Sigilyph). Even as a Scolipede, its physical bulk is nothing to scoff at. Marshal, Scoli sat in the back while everyone else put in work, and against Shauntal, Rock Slide did her Chandelure in. Even in the weird limbo stage between evolving and getting Megahorn, it was still doing its job, and I didn't have to give it immediate medical treatment after every fight *Glares at Pansage*


More importantly, how one pokemon compares to another shouldn't have any form of impact on either of their rankings. That's something that's been stated in several VR threads in the past, especially the ORAS and SM ones. Yes, there are other mons that do the eviolite tank job better, but for VR, we look at these pokemon in a vacuum, off of just their own merits and not how they compare to others. We ain't comparing Whirlipede to Ferroseed in the how well they tank department. If, say, Venipede or Ferroseed (as an example) were about the same , they should be in the same rank, that's fine, but bumping Venipede down because it doesn't do said niches better than X mon... that's not how the VR threads work. I just don't see Venipede belonging in D, and I feel C works fine for what it brings to the table.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

In regards to Grimsley, neither Krook or Liepard were able to take down Scoli, since Scoli outsped them both, and even with the Intimidate, Megahorn was a clean 2HKO, and Krook's earthquake wasn't enough to kill it. I did get lucky against Scrafty, who went for Sand attack followed by Crunch, so Scoli didn't care about that, and Bisharp... Yeah, I left that to Samurott. Still, Scoli did what I needed it to do against Grimsley, and Caitlyn got slaughtered with Megahorns (and a flinch from Rock Slide against the Sigilyph). Even as a Scolipede, its physical bulk is nothing to scoff at. Marshal, Scoli sat in the back while everyone else put in work, and against Shauntal, Rock Slide did her Chandelure in. Even in the weird limbo stage between evolving and getting Megahorn, it was still doing its job, and I didn't have to give it immediate medical treatment after every fight *Glares at Pansage*


More importantly, how one pokemon compares to another shouldn't have any form of impact on either of their rankings. That's something that's been stated in several VR threads in the past, especially the ORAS and SM ones. Yes, there are other mons that do the eviolite tank job better, but for VR, we look at these pokemon in a vacuum, off of just their own merits and not how they compare to others. We ain't comparing Whirlipede to Ferroseed in the how well they tank department. If, say, Venipede or Ferroseed (as an example) were about the same , they should be in the same rank, that's fine, but bumping Venipede down because it doesn't do said niches better than X mon... that's not how the VR threads work. I just don't see Venipede belonging in D, and I feel C works fine for what it brings to the table.

Yeah, I could maybe see it in C. I don't know why, I've just never really found the mon all that great. It's not particularly late or anything, it's just maybe the lack of a offense boosting move that kills it for me, or the fact that my other mons overshadow it. What do you see as an automatic D tier in terms of performance?

 

[Giratina93]

Yeah, I could maybe see it in C. I don't know why, I've just never really found the mon all that great. It's not particularly late or anything, it's just maybe the lack of a offense boosting move that kills it for me, or the fact that my other mons overshadow it. What do you see as an automatic D tier in terms of performance?

For me, a d rank Mon is one that isn't really average, but struggles against most of the game with very limited success, and also needs constant healing and babying just to get working. Woobat and purrloin, due to their severe crippling issues, fit into d rank in my mind, but venipede can deal with burgh's ace with poison tail for starters, mowes through plasma grunts relatively well (bar the goddamn watchogs), and mine faired well against Brycen and Drayden, and kept contributing against Caitlyn and grimsley. It was a run of the mill average mon with an average performance, which I feel fits C.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

For me, a d rank Mon is one that isn't really average, but struggles against most of the game with very limited success, and also needs constant healing and babying just to get working. Woobat and purrloin, due to their severe crippling issues, fit into d rank in my mind, but venipede can deal with burgh's ace with poison tail for starters, mowes through plasma grunts relatively well (bar the goddamn watchogs), and mine faired well against Brycen and Drayden, and kept contributing against Caitlyn and grimsley. It was a run of the mill average mon with an average performance, which I feel fits C.

Purrloin I see as a true E. You need to get to level 15 for Pursuit, and aside from Fake Out you get jack all for moves until like Night Slash at 43. I'd argue even Watchog is more useful. The only thing keeping it D would be availability, and that's pointless when there are like 2 Munna users before the better Dark types show up.

As for the babying, no I didn't need to baby Scolipede much. It's only painful pre-Poison Tail, though I guess the lack of power in general made it so meh to me. STABs not hitting a ton super-effectively doesn't help much.

Did Pansage really suck enough to be E? If anything the most E-worthy Grass is Foongus.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Foongus was a D rank when I used it in that eponymous White run I keep mentioning, it was kind of like a worse Seismitoed in a sense, awesome defensive typing, great bulk meant that it was pretty self sufficient, Giga Drain/Synthesis so not healing reliant, has to pick its matchups if it doesn't want to sit there forever as with most grass types, but generally capable of being a serviceable team member, albeit one that isn't really strong enough to do more than support the team (Stun Spore etc). It kind of reminded me of Arbok in USUM, a weak attacking with good utility value/bulk (Glare+Intimidate+Necrozma check in Arbok's case)


Speaking of great bulk damn I didn't realize how FAT Seismitoed is, thing is pacing for like 360 level 100 HP w/o EV/IV selection

 

[DrumstickGaming]

Foongus was a D rank when I used it in that eponymous White run I keep mentioning, it was kind of like a worse Seismitoed in a sense, awesome defensive typing, great bulk meant that it was pretty self sufficient, Giga Drain/Synthesis so not healing reliant, has to pick its matchups if it doesn't want to sit there forever as with most grass types, but generally capable of being a serviceable team member, albeit one that isn't really strong enough to do more than support the team (Stun Spore etc). It kind of reminded me of Arbok in USUM, a weak attacking with good utility value/bulk (Glare+Intimidate+Necrozma check in Arbok's case)


Speaking of great bulk damn I didn't realize how FAT Seismitoed is, thing is pacing for like 360 level 100 HP w/o EV/IV selection

Sounds about right. Foongus will stay D based on this rationale.
I used it forever ago. I think I soloed Clay by doing some funky stuff with Foongus and SolarBeam? It was weird.

 

[Magnus0]

I finished another run, this time with Oshawott, Munna, Deerling, Karrablast (trade, kinda) and Litwick.

First an overview of the fight with Drayden and the E4.

Drayden
- Samurott OHKO's Fraxure with blizzard. It fails to OHKO Druddigon though, and then it gets phased out with dragon tail. The same thing happens with Haxorus. You can try to set up a work up on Fraxure, which allows you to OHKO everything with blizzard. Overall it's a good matchup, but not reliable because blizzard misses A LOT.
- Fraxure immediately uses assurance against Musharna, which didn't even 4-HKO'd. This buys Musharna more than enough time to set up a yawn into charge beam spam. After you get three or four boosts from charge beam, psybeam OHKO's everything on Draydens team. Speed is not an issue here because loldragontail. Solo without too much effort.
- Sawsbuck is quite mediocre here. It outspeeds evertying and can use return for decent damage, but this usually doesn't kill Druddigon and Haxorus in two hits. Setting up work up is risky, but possible with luck. Neutral matchup really
- Escavelier can easily solo this with iron defense if you deposit the rest of your team. After setting up some iron defenses, it is indestructable and picks off Draydens team one by one.
- Chandelure barely OHKO's Fraxure with shadow ball, but it fails to OHKO the other two. If can take only one hit, so it can beat either Druddigon or Haxorus, but not both. Not without healing at least. Overall decent matchup

Marshall
- Completly neutral matchup type wise. It outspeeds and 2-HKO's Conkeldurr, which is probably its most reliable contribution. You can also beat Mienshao with surf + aqua jet if it sends you into torrent range. Mediocre matchup in general because Samurott really can't reliably beat more than one pokemon at a time.
- Musharna is just not bulky enough to set reliably here. It has to take two paybacks from Throh before yawn kicks in. Then you have to heal before you set up, so you really can't get many charge beam boosts. Once you kill Throh, Mienashao immediately comes in with rataliate, which does over half of Musharna's HP. Then it finishes with u-turn, ending the sweep. You're probably better off just spamming psybeam without set up.
- Sawsbuck is absolutely useless. Dies to everything.
- Escavelier can meme on Marshall hard with iron defense because it has shell armor as ability. After three iron defenses, it's indestructable and you can pick everything off with aerial ace. Easy solo, though you might need to use one healing item.
- Chandelure doesn't do as well as I hoped. It falls to payback and rock coverage a lot, and it doesn't OHKO anything bar Mienshao, but it has to take a rock slide for that and not flinch. Like with Samurott, it can beat at least one pokemon of choice, but not much more than that. Chandelure can use memento though, so it's far from useless even if it can't beat Marshals pokemon straight up.

Caitlin
- Samurott struggles a lot. It dies to thunder and thunderbolt, and it's outsped and 2-HKO'd by Sigilyph. I didn't even test megahorn, but considering Sawsbuck couldn't kill anything with it in one hit either, I don't think it would have helped much. Poor matchup.
- Musharna again fails to set up because it can't take hits well enough. Reuniclus can't 2-HKO, but everything else can with shadow ball. After some boosts, Musharna can take out Cailins Musharna with one shadow ball of its own, but then Sigilyph and Gothitelle both end the sweep. You need heavy item support (x special defense and healing items) to make Musharna work here.
- Sawsbuck does heavy damage with megahorn, but it doesn't quite OHKO anything either. It loses hard to Sigilyph as well. You can pick off one pokemon of choice (except reuniclus), and then get one extra mega horn in on something else. Overall, mediocre matchup, but not terrible.
- Escavelier muscled through with just its stats. It could take FOUR thunders from Reuniclus, though it died to x-sciccor in two hits. It came dangerously close to a OHKO, so with the expert belt it would have more than likely OHKO'd. Nothing can really touch Escavelier so it's free to spam x-scissor. I used a shell bell, so I didn't even have to use a healing item. Easy solo nr. 2

Grimsley
- If you get it in against Krookorok, it can sweep the team from there, but you need to get Scrafty out of the way first. Krook ouspeeds and uses earthquake, which Samurott takes quite well, and then it dies to surf. Bisharp comes out, fails to KO with night slash and takes hefty damage from torrent boosted surf. Aqua jet picks it off. Samurott didn't have enough HP left to beat Liepard, but that's nothing a healing item can't fix. Overall, pretty great matchup.
- ...
- Sawsbuck does amazing here, very similar to Samurott. If need to get Scrafty out of the way and bring it in against Krook, without taking the intimedate. It can set up one work up, which is enough to kill Krook with horn leech. Bisharp and Liepard are both outsped and OHKO'd by jump kick. good matchup.
- Escavelier man. It sets up iron defense against Scrafty, who can only try to be annoying with sand-attack, and trust me, it will. Nothing on Grimsleys team can touch a boosted Escavelier though, so you just have to have patience and pray you hit your x-scissors. It's just a matter of time. Easy solo nr. 3
- Chandelure OHKO's bisharp and Liepard with fire blast, so it's not as bad as it seems. Fairly okay matchup.

Shauntal
- Samurott does pretty well. It OHKO's both golurk and Chandelure with surf. It loses hard to Jellicent though, and it doesn't like taking a shadow ball from Cofagrigus because then Chandelure will KO it. Decent matchup.
- Musharna can beat Cofagrigus with shadow ball, but that's it. Poor Musharna
- Sawskbuck does amazing against Jellicent, pretty much walling it completely. I even got an attack boost from sap sipper by baiting energy ball with Samurott. You can use this time against Jellicent to set up work up, but you need a lot of work ups to have a chance of OHKO'ing Chandelure though. It does well against Golurk as well. Overall it's a pretty good matchup.
- Escavelier is not great here. It doesn't like taking Cofagrigus' wisp, and it's useless against Chandelure. Jellicent resists both its STABS. This leaves Golurk, which Escavelier can beat because of its amazing. bulk and strenghth.
- Chandelure is a bit iffy-ish here. It OHKO's both Cofagrigus and Golurk, but Jellicent survives and kills with STAB surf. The ditto vs Chandelure depends on speed. Overall, it's pretty good but very risky.

Final verdict on all the pokemon.

Oshawott -> A tier
Pros: good availability, typing, stats and movepool. Very few weaknesses, both type wise and just in general.
Cons: nothing really. Iffy-ish speed I guess, and less then stellar special defense. Also it's quite boring...

Munna -> C tier (maybe D I'm not really sure tbh. It's hard)
pros: good availabilty, fast exp growth, amazing bulk and special attack, great overall gym matchups, early evolution and great stats compared to the rest of the game at the time of evolving, very self-sufficient in mid-game thanks to moonlight.
Cons: low speed, falls off hard against elite four, lack of reliable STAB move (very major problem) and lack of attacking options in general, it sticks with the same movepool for almost the entire game with only about 6 viable moves to use.

Deerling -> B tier
Pros: decent stats and typing, amazing coverage, very few truly bad matchups and many good ones, amazing speed tier
Cons: sometimes lacks a little bit of power, low-ish bulk, quite many type-weaknesses.

Karrablast (trade) -> B tier
Pros: extreme 135 attack stat and solid bulk, just one weakness to a rare type, gets all the moves it needs but nothing more than that, extremely good matchups, beats up 3/4 of the E4 without breaking a sweat.
Cons: beyond slow making it susceptible to status and flinching, trade evolution

Litwick -> C tier
Pros: incredible special attack stat, with decent enough speed to go along with that, limited but good movepool, memento is a good niche
Cons: late evolution and shit pre-evolution don't work well toghether, dusk stone either comes very late or requires a detour, not spectacular matchups, not really worth the effort imo, Chandelure isn't that amazing.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I finished another run, this time with Oshawott, Munna, Deerling, Karrablast (trade, kinda) and Litwick.

First an overview of the fight with Drayden and the E4.

Drayden
- Samurott OHKO's Fraxure with blizzard. It fails to OHKO Druddigon though, and then it gets phased out with dragon tail. The same thing happens with Haxorus. You can try to set up a work up on Fraxure, which allows you to OHKO everything with blizzard. Overall it's a good matchup, but not reliable because blizzard misses A LOT.
- Fraxure immediately uses assurance against Musharna, which didn't even 4-HKO'd. This buys Musharna more than enough time to set up a yawn into charge beam spam. After you get three or four boosts from charge beam, psybeam OHKO's everything on Draydens team. Speed is not an issue here because loldragontail. Solo without too much effort.
- Sawsbuck is quite mediocre here. It outspeeds evertying and can use return for decent damage, but this usually doesn't kill Druddigon and Haxorus in two hits. Setting up work up is risky, but possible with luck. Neutral matchup really
- Escavelier can easily solo this with iron defense if you deposit the rest of your team. After setting up some iron defenses, it is indestructable and picks off Draydens team one by one.
- Chandelure barely OHKO's Fraxure with shadow ball, but it fails to OHKO the other two. If can take only one hit, so it can beat either Druddigon or Haxorus, but not both. Not without healing at least. Overall decent matchup

Marshall
- Completly neutral matchup type wise. It outspeeds and 2-HKO's Conkeldurr, which is probably its most reliable contribution. You can also beat Mienshao with surf + aqua jet if it sends you into torrent range. Mediocre matchup in general because Samurott really can't reliably beat more than one pokemon at a time.
- Musharna is just not bulky enough to set reliably here. It has to take two paybacks from Throh before yawn kicks in. Then you have to heal before you set up, so you really can't get many charge beam boosts. Once you kill Throh, Mienashao immediately comes in with rataliate, which does over half of Musharna's HP. Then it finishes with u-turn, ending the sweep. You're probably better off just spamming psybeam without set up.
- Sawsbuck is absolutely useless. Dies to everything.
- Escavelier can meme on Marshall hard with iron defense because it has shell armor as ability. After three iron defenses, it's indestructable and you can pick everything off with aerial ace. Easy solo, though you might need to use one healing item.
- Chandelure doesn't do as well as I hoped. It falls to payback and rock coverage a lot, and it doesn't OHKO anything bar Mienshao, but it has to take a rock slide for that and not flinch. Like with Samurott, it can beat at least one pokemon of choice, but not much more than that. Chandelure can use memento though, so it's far from useless even if it can't beat Marshals pokemon straight up.

Caitlin
- Samurott struggles a lot. It dies to thunder and thunderbolt, and it's outsped and 2-HKO'd by Sigilyph. I didn't even test megahorn, but considering Sawsbuck couldn't kill anything with it in one hit either, I don't think it would have helped much. Poor matchup.
- Musharna again fails to set up because it can't take hits well enough. Reuniclus can't 2-HKO, but everything else can with shadow ball. After some boosts, Musharna can take out Cailins Musharna with one shadow ball of its own, but then Sigilyph and Gothitelle both end the sweep. You need heavy item support (x special defense and healing items) to make Musharna work here.
- Sawsbuck does heavy damage with megahorn, but it doesn't quite OHKO anything either. It loses hard to Sigilyph as well. You can pick off one pokemon of choice (except reuniclus), and then get one extra mega horn in on something else. Overall, mediocre matchup, but not terrible.
- Escavelier muscled through with just its stats. It could take FOUR thunders from Reuniclus, though it died to x-sciccor in two hits. It came dangerously close to a OHKO, so with the expert belt it would have more than likely OHKO'd. Nothing can really touch Escavelier so it's free to spam x-scissor. I used a shell bell, so I didn't even have to use a healing item. Easy solo nr. 2

Grimsley
- If you get it in against Krookorok, it can sweep the team from there, but you need to get Scrafty out of the way first. Krook ouspeeds and uses earthquake, which Samurott takes quite well, and then it dies to surf. Bisharp comes out, fails to KO with night slash and takes hefty damage from torrent boosted surf. Aqua jet picks it off. Samurott didn't have enough HP left to beat Liepard, but that's nothing a healing item can't fix. Overall, pretty great matchup.
- ...
- Sawsbuck does amazing here, very similar to Samurott. If need to get Scrafty out of the way and bring it in against Krook, without taking the intimedate. It can set up one work up, which is enough to kill Krook with horn leech. Bisharp and Liepard are both outsped and OHKO'd by jump kick. good matchup.
- Escavelier man. It sets up iron defense against Scrafty, who can only try to be annoying with sand-attack, and trust me, it will. Nothing on Grimsleys team can touch a boosted Escavelier though, so you just have to have patience and pray you hit your x-scissors. It's just a matter of time. Easy solo nr. 3
- Chandelure OHKO's bisharp and Liepard with fire blast, so it's not as bad as it seems. Fairly okay matchup.

Shauntal
- Samurott does pretty well. It OHKO's both golurk and Chandelure with surf. It loses hard to Jellicent though, and it doesn't like taking a shadow ball from Cofagrigus because then Chandelure will KO it. Decent matchup.
- Musharna can beat Cofagrigus with shadow ball, but that's it. Poor Musharna
- Sawskbuck does amazing against Jellicent, pretty much walling it completely. I even got an attack boost from sap sipper by baiting energy ball with Samurott. You can use this time against Jellicent to set up work up, but you need a lot of work ups to have a chance of OHKO'ing Chandelure though. It does well against Golurk as well. Overall it's a pretty good matchup.
- Escavelier is not great here. It doesn't like taking Cofagrigus' wisp, and it's useless against Chandelure. Jellicent resists both its STABS. This leaves Golurk, which Escavelier can beat because of its amazing. bulk and strenghth.
- Chandelure is a bit iffy-ish here. It OHKO's both Cofagrigus and Golurk, but Jellicent survives and kills with STAB surf. The ditto vs Chandelure depends on speed. Overall, it's pretty good but very risky.

Final verdict on all the pokemon.

Oshawott -> A tier
Pros: good availability, typing, stats and movepool. Very few weaknesses, both type wise and just in general.
Cons: nothing really. Iffy-ish speed I guess, and less then stellar special defense. Also it's quite boring...

Munna -> C tier (maybe D I'm not really sure tbh. It's hard)
pros: good availabilty, fast exp growth, amazing bulk and special attack, great overall gym matchups, early evolution and great stats compared to the rest of the game at the time of evolving, very self-sufficient in mid-game thanks to moonlight.
Cons: low speed, falls off hard against elite four, lack of reliable STAB move (very major problem) and lack of attacking options in general, it sticks with the same movepool for almost the entire game with only about 6 viable moves to use.

Deerling -> B tier
Pros: decent stats and typing, amazing coverage, very few truly bad matchups and many good ones, amazing speed tier
Cons: sometimes lacks a little bit of power, low-ish bulk, quite many type-weaknesses.

Karrablast (trade) -> B tier
Pros: extreme 135 attack stat and solid bulk, just one weakness to a rare type, gets all the moves it needs but nothing more than that, extremely good matchups, beats up 3/4 of the E4 without breaking a sweat.
Cons: beyond slow making it susceptible to status and flinching, trade evolution

Litwick -> C tier
Pros: incredible special attack stat, with decent enough speed to go along with that, limited but good movepool, memento is a good niche
Cons: late evolution and shit pre-evolution don't work well toghether, dusk stone either comes very late or requires a detour, not spectacular matchups, not really worth the effort imo, Chandelure isn't that amazing.

Fantastic evaluation. How were N and Ghetsis?

I have to say I'm ashamed of how bad Munna is. The one game you can use the mon in, but that dissonance between great stats/movepool and matchups renders it outclessed by almost all of the other Psychics (who aside from Sigilyph and maybe Reuniclus aren't all that great imo). Munna sounds like a D tier to me, based on the parameters established above. Even if you grind for Psychic, it still does almost nothing endgame because it is slow (a necessary, though frustrating drawback).

Fully supportive of Karrablast (trade) rise. Might have to use it myself. It takes a bit to get off the ground, but once you do it sounds very helpful. Theoretically late evo doesn't really hurt it because I'd doubt it would do anything notable against Clay or Skyla. Even if you evolve it early, it has movepool issues that aren't fixed until X-Scissor.

Litwick is in a weird spot. Strong stats fully evolved say B, but that 15 or so levels pre-Lampent say ugh/C. I'd like to see if others think if it's worthy of B before it stays there, because it isn't invincible.

Agree with the others. Though Samurott isn't being tiered based on how interesting it is, lol.

Who do yo guys think the best Bug is? I'd say Dwebble. Awesome abilities, awesome moves (Rock Slide at 29!) and just good enough TM selection.

Discussion Slate: Litwick, Munna, Axew, monkeys, Dwebble

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Fully supportive of Karrablast (trade) rise. Might have to use it myself. It takes a bit to get off the ground, but once you do it sounds very helpful. Theoretically late evo doesn't really hurt it because I'd doubt it would do anything notable against Clay or Skyla. Even if you evolve it early, it has movepool issues that aren't fixed until X-Scissor.

I actually posted my results against Skyla:

"escavalier (35): 2HKOs Swoobat with X-Scissor, took 60% from two Acrobatics, and from one on a crit. Unfezant is a terrible mon that can only do 20% to Esca. Slash 3HKOs in return. Swanna is also weaksauce and 4HKOs with Air Slash, getting 3HKOd by Slash in return, but flinches are annoying af."


Magnus0 's results against the other leaders confirm what my expectation is of Esca's future matchups and I think there's actually an extremely compelling argument that it should go to A tier. You pick it up after Exp. Share so you can pretty much ignore it until it catches up 6 levels or so which it will definitively do by Skyla. After that point it curbstomps almost every single major matchup left, and it's basically untouchable to regular trainers. I was thinking earlier about Slowbro in FRLG and I find Esca to be a very comparable analogue, late arrival but just dumpsters the latest major boss fights without much of an issue (Slowbro trucks Blaine, Giovanni, Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, and Lance). Once it gets X-Scissor Escavalier can muscle through most matchups and after Iron Head it has basically everything it needs.

Basically the question is how much do you penalize the late arrival? I think in most cases it penalizes them enough to drop an extra tier, but in a case like these where you're just so dominant against the major matchups it justifies disregarding the late arrival penalty.

 

[Merritt]

Since this never got definitively settled in the policy thread, this needs a ruling. When can Karrablast evolve? Is it at the point that everything necessary to evolve it is obtainable on cart (that is, not until the player can also obtain Shelmet) or is it the instant the player can obtain Karrablast (making the assumption that the cart it's being traded to has access to Shelmet already)?

Personally I lean towards the one that doesn't make an assumption about what the other cart has, but this is something that's rather relevant for Karrablast (trade).

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I actually posted my results against Skyla:

"escavalier (35): 2HKOs Swoobat with X-Scissor, took 60% from two Acrobatics, and from one on a crit. Unfezant is a terrible mon that can only do 20% to Esca. Slash 3HKOs in return. Swanna is also weaksauce and 4HKOs with Air Slash, getting 3HKOd by Slash in return, but flinches are annoying af."


Magnus0 's results against the other leaders confirm what my expectation is of Esca's future matchups and I think there's actually an extremely compelling argument that it should go to A tier. You pick it up after Exp. Share so you can pretty much ignore it until it catches up 6 levels or so which it will definitively do by Skyla. After that point it curbstomps almost every single major matchup left, and it's basically untouchable to regular trainers. I was thinking earlier about Slowbro in FRLG and I find Esca to be a very comparable analogue, late arrival but just dumpsters the latest major boss fights without much of an issue (Slowbro trucks Blaine, Giovanni, Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, and Lance). Once it gets X-Scissor Escavalier can muscle through most matchups and after Iron Head it has basically everything it needs.

Basically the question is how much do you penalize the late arrival? I think in most cases it penalizes them enough to drop an extra tier, but in a case like these where you're just so dominant against the major matchups it justifies disregarding the late arrival penalty.

My bad, I kinda forgot/was too lazy to check those results lol

Mhmm, A tier? I dunno. If Escavelier goes to A, Axew could have a case there despite evolving late and being gotten later. There is no other mon in my mind that dumpsters the E4 quite like Haxorus does. Nothing can stop a SD or DD sweep off of 147 Attack, the only challenger for this is N, and I doubt DragonBreath OHKOs Haxorus. Against Ghetsis, Sub, DD and sweep, easy as pie. Level 48 is not unreasonable at all, given that we have established Vanilluxe/Klinklang levels as doable. And its not like you have to baby it bc Axew has a good 87 Attack and DD at 32. Cofagrigus has Wisp? Just use a Rawst Berry. Caitlin is bulky? Just use SD. It might get close with Sigilyph but you can still smack things really hard, and Caitlin isn't an easy fight either. Brycen might be a no go, but I could still see a Fraxure sweeping Drayden if you are careful.

Another thing against Esca is low Speed. Sure it stomps bosses but it will take chip against mooks, no question. This is something I don't even think potentially evolving early can save.

I guess we can say it evolves when you get it. But its movepool doesn't really pick up until X-Scissor TM/Iron Head at 37. I don't quite see it at A for these reasons. A B for now-I will use it myself to see if it lives up to the hype.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Snorlax: Easiest A tier of my life. Absolutely stomped the entire game pretty much up to Vast Poni Canyon where the power level started to catch up to its bulk at which point it dropped from dominant to good. Spoke earlier about how Munchlax comes underleveled and slow and it couldn't matter less because things are poking it for 10% damage.

From the USUM tiering thread. Chip damage doesn't matter if you don't take enough to care about it or to allow it to threaten KOs from follow up mons.

 

[DrumstickGaming]

From the USUM tiering thread. Chip damage doesn't matter if you don't take enough to care about it or to allow it to threaten KOs from follow up mons.

Still unsure. And yes, I know that's talking about Snorlax.

I mean, Crustle can dumpster the same fights just as easily and it comes earlier, so if Esca goes to A I don't see why Crustle shouldn't.

I want to see what other users and my own experiences think before moving it there. A is a high bar, and B is still pretty good.

I'm not saying it's not effective, what I'm saying is before I bump something up to A tier I want to use it first. Like with Lillipup and Throh.

 

[Kurai_Seishen]

Since this never got definitively settled in the policy thread, this needs a ruling. When can Karrablast evolve? Is it at the point that everything necessary to evolve it is obtainable on cart (that is, not until the player can also obtain Shelmet) or is it the instant the player can obtain Karrablast (making the assumption that the cart it's being traded to has access to Shelmet already)?

Personally I lean towards the one that doesn't make an assumption about what the other cart has, but this is something that's rather relevant for Karrablast (trade).

Funnily enough, I was always under the impression that Shelmet was findable in Route 6, where Karrablast is, but it seems that was a change made in BW2 and I was mixed up! If we are to assume that the "proper" way to get Escavalier and Accelgor is to wait until you can catch both Karrablast and Shelmet, you have to wait until Icirrus City to get Escavalier and Accelgor. I think that's the best way to go about this.

Also, even though each game is different, all of these tier lists affect each other because we're setting precedents with what we do in each game, and we should try to be as consistent as possible. To say "you can evolve Karrablast immediately when you catch if you have Shelmet in another game" is to also say that you can evolve Onix immediately as long as another game has found the Metal Coat, or Magmar and the Magmarizer, Dusknoir with the Reaper Cloth, so on and so forth. Hell, with this set forth, you could also say that as long as you have a game where you can easily get to the Ice-Covered Rock near Snowpoint then you can get Glaceon in Platinum as soon as you get Eevee, or Mount Lanakila for Crabominable, magnetic fields for Magnezone/Vikavolt, whatever. We could also extend this to Stones and other evolution methods (such as if you have a surplus of Rare Candies).

Bottom line, I think the best thing to assume is that you have to wait until you can catch Shelmet in BW1 to judge Escavalier and Accelgor.

That said, the only real thing this changes is Karrablast being unable to take on Skyla, which was an iffy match up anyways since Escavalier takes neutral damage from Flying attacks, and maybe Clay though not too sure on how Karrablast does there unevolved or evolved. It also losses out on a Cheren battle and some wild/trainer EXP, but the latter doesn't count for much. Escavalier should still be B at the least for being so powerful, only marred by its late arrival. My testaments to Escavalier's power are fresh on the mind since I just finished a game with it, and it's easily one of the strongest Pokemon in game. Besdies, looking at the current C tier (which I have a big post on so be ready for that in the future, maybe), I can safely and easily say that Escavalier is better than all of them.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I've finally completed my run. First, brief summaries of the remaining fights:

Iris: started with Stouland fighting for the sake of interest, got Dragon Tailed eventually and Escavalier tanked its way through the remainder

Marshall: Swoobat wasn't able to handle throw so ran it again with Serperior in the lead and although it was a long fight Serprior eventually was able to sweep through

Grimsley: Stoutland can play vs Scrafty of all things, Brick Break doesn't 2HKO after Intimidate. The Serprior show again, Coil+Seed set up on Krookodile, only Bisharp as a stumbling block but it goes down eventually

Caitlin: The Escavalier show, tanking a Focus Blast+Thunder from Reuniclus and 2HKOing back, also two shotting Musharna and OHKOing Goth, plus a cameo from Gigalith to take down Sigilyph

Shauntal: Stoutland beat Cofagigus and most of Golurk, Seismitoad cleaning up the scraps. Serperior pushed through Jellicent, and Seismitoad and Gigalith teamed up to take down Chandelure - Gigalith probably could have done this solo if I'd picked it first..

N: Zekrom/Reshiram stuff, Gigalith picked Reshi off after a Hyper Beam. Klinklang was met with Seismitoad except it was actually Zoroark which ended up being a credit to the Toad as Focus Blast wasn't even a 2HKO against it, some Poison Touch Drain Punches later and Zoroark fell. Klinklang proper then came and couldn't touch Toad was able to kill it with Hyper Beam from 25%. This afforded Serperior the chance to come in and set up but it also fell because Metal Sound and steel type > Grass STAB. Gigalith cleaned up after the Hyper Beam. Carracosta came next, met by Stoutland and Stoutland was unable to 2HKO with a Work Up boosted Dig and fell to Carracosta, Escavalier coming in for the clean up KO. Archeops next, arguably the biggest threat, was met by Gigalith who promptly sat the bird back down (no idea what it did, Quick Claw procced). Last up was Vanilluxe who could do nothing against Escavalier.

Ghetsis: Stoutland > Cofagrigus (though it tanked a +4 Crunch...). Stoutland > Hydreigon. Escavalier and Zekrom (and Seismitoad) did a switch dance until Hydreigon ran out of Fire Blast PP, then Escavalier smashed the Hydra down (sidenote, I got crit so many times by this Hydra). Gigalith almost > Bouffalant but not quite thanks to another crit, Seismitoad cleans up. Enemy Seismitoad comes in and kills before I can Grass Knot (ANOTHER crit, p sure I was in a living range), Escavalier gets up two Revives before drying to yet ANOTHER crit on a rain boosted Muddy Water, now Serperior can come in and one shot with Leaf Blade. Eelektross next and my Toad is down so Serperior sets up a Seed before going to Gigalith because ow Acrobatics hurts. Stone Edge promptly dispatches the Eelektross. Bisharp is next and things need Reviving to take it, but first Serperior throws out a Leech Seed. Turns out Bisharp doesn't have Iron Head so Gigalith just sits it down with Bulldoze instead of Reviving. GG Ghetsis.

League MVPs: Escavalier, Serperior, Gigalith, in that order. All three played pivotal roles with their bulk and typing and power/sustainability being major assets. Seismitoad did a little bit more than Stoutland (designated Cofagrigus bitch) who did more than Swoobat (did nothing).


Now, about the mons themselves (as a note on levels and experience, I did not do any backtracking at all but I did consistently equip my lead with the Lucky Egg and fought all trainers on the direct paths and expected side areas)

Snivy: Strong B tier with and outside case for A. Always exceptionally bulky meant that it was a rare situation where it was unable to contribute in some way. Early in the game Leaf Tornado and reasonable Normal attack power / less bulky Grass resists meant that it was something of a power house tank, proven in the fights against Cilan and Lenora. By Serperior the offensive margins had fallen off meaning it was relegated to a bulky set up attacker in big fights but it pulled off that role with aplomb, being solely responsible for a victory vs Marshal and a key player vs Grimsley. Not the most efficient entry because of it's lesser power and limited coverage, but definitely a valuable member of the team.

Serperior lv 51 @ Big Root: Leaf Blade / Leech Seed / Return / Coil
154 / 92 (blech...) / 116 / 98 / 118 / 142 (fast tanky mofo, another 20 points in attack would have made a world of difference)


Lillipup: On the A/B borderline for me, probably wouldn't fuss with it in A because I know mine had some pretty shit IVs. Starts off as dominant through the Lillipup phase and tailed off to simply consistently useful. Power issues kept it from being able to OHKO a lot of things so it never ended up being a world beater and ended up more as a mon I could throw into any situation and be reasonably comfortable with where things would end up. Intimidate was a big asset. Maybe fits better in B just because it doesn't really have any specifically great gym or E4 matchups (barring movepool abuse w/ Substitute on Chauntal)

Stoutland lv 46 @ Scope Lens: Return / Crunch / Dig / Work Up
138 / 108 (meh...) / 93 / 57 / 93 / 97 (slightly above average across the board I guess?)

Woobat: Okay early game, fantastic middle game, tails off in the late middle, shit end game once the garbage tier stats finally catch up with it. Woobat itself performed fine for me, it was frail but comes at a point where it gets consistently favourable matchups to compensate (Fightings and Bugs and Grasses aplenty). As I detailed in my run, my Woobat evolved immediately after the Burgh fight and from this point Swoobat was a major force and the best member of my team, maintaining this strength up until roughly Clay. At the early 30s it started to tail off and by the fight with Iris it was no longer able to contribute to any major fights (or most trainer fights) in any meaningful way. I had been of the belief that it should rise to C for its performance most of the way through, but it unfortunately puts up a massive zero in the end game so D tier is appropriate.

Swoobat lv 46 @ Amulet Coin: Psychic / Air Slash / Calm Mind / Fly
125 / 74 / 79 / 83 (oh no...) / 59 (oh no...) / 127 (yikes. what a mess. no wonder it fell off in the end game)


Roggenrola (Trade): Very impressive showing. As I've detailed before, the Roggenrola phase took a bit of care, it performed fine on its own but needed to be held back for appropriate matchups. Once it evolved into Boldore however it became a beast with some major stat increases, it was both powerful and strong, to say nothing that you can evolve it immediately if you choose. Burgh was a stomp, and Elesa would have been had I let it fight the Emolgas. When I evolved it into Gigalith at Skyla it turned into a monster. Incredibly powerful, incredibly bulky, the singular downside was its slow speed making it annoying to lead with when running in the wild. Dumpstered Skyla, would have been able to dumpster Brycen, would have performed well against Iris, and effectively answered some dangerous threats in the E4 run (Archeops, Chandelure, and Sigilyph as most notable). Trade variant is A tier for me, B at the minimum.

Gigalith lv 49 @ Quick Claw: Rock Slide / Strength / Bulldoze / Stone Edge
150 / 160 (woo!) / 136 / 72 / 87 / 47 (literal definition of a physical tank, spdef isn't too bad either tbh)


Tympole: Pros and cons to this one. Starts off self-sufficient with Bubblebeam offsetting weak offenses, and evolves into Palpitoad at an appropriate time, just in time to completely invalidate both Elesa and Clay. Offensive capacity falls off after this point and never really recovers, but the bulk remains and it's one of the best available, with excellent coverage as well once it evolves into Seismitoad. Toad had some use in the E4+, Grimsley's Krook and Bisharp are premium targets, as is Ghetsis's Eelektross and N's Klinklang. Overall I enjoyed using it but I just didn't feel too many situations where I wanted to use it, almost every time the decision to use it was based on its phenomenal bulk and defensive typing rather than anything it could do offensively. On the B/C borderline, based on its E4 performance I would lean to C, but would lean to B for its middle game performance.

Seismitoad lv 48 @ Expert Belt w/ Poison Touch: Surf / Grass Knot / Dig / Drain Punch
175 (!!!) / 90 (blech...) / 100 / 96 / 78 / 88 (such a fat boi!)


Karrablast (Trade): Won't go into too much depth on this after the recent discussion, but I really couldn't have asked for more from a late game addition. Give it a tiny bit of patience, to Icirrus if you can't evolve it immediately, and you get one of the best end-game beaters available. Beats Sklya, destroys Brycen, beats Iris, destroys Caitlin, beats Grimsley, and is incredibly useful both offensively and defensively against both N and Ghetsis, particularly as a reliable way to beat Ghetsis's Hydreigon (since the party Dragon aka Fire resist is forced). People will argue it to B, and that's reasonable, but it's A in my heart. A lot of the same reasoning as to why Lanturn is justified as A tier for me in Emerald Merritt. Extra note is that mine was a Calm nature so I actually lost out on a lot of power too, in exchange for slightly better special bulk.

Escavalier lv 48 @ Rocky Helmet: Iron Head / X-Scissor / Slash / Rock Smash
139 / 129 / 109 / 81 / 117 / 35 (what a beast, surpassing Serperior in defenses and behind only Gigalith in offenses)

 

[Kurai_Seishen]

I've been looking at C tier and I guess I need some answers for it. I'm just going to comment on the entire list.

Hiding for length, lol

Basculin: This comes pretty late for a Water for requiring Surf, but an Adaptability Aqua Tail (or Waterfall if you prefer accuracy) probably hurts. However, it has an unremarkable movepool with only Return and Crunch as your real non STAB options, and mixed attacking with Surf only really works with base 80 Special Attack because of Adaptability. And to look at its match ups; I guess it's OK at Icirrus for resisting Ice, it doesn't do much to Opelucid besides gambling with Blizzard, it beats Chandelure, Golurk, Krookodile, can Crunch Caitlin and the rest of Shauntal's team, is neutral to everything else, probably doesn't survive Archeop's attacks or the Dragons and is neutral to everything else, can Crunch Cofagrigus but kind of sucks against everything else Ghetsis has. That late arrival is pretty damning when some good enough Waters (Tympole, Panpour, and Tirtouga) come into play much earlier, and its match ups aren't notable, and I'm not sure if its power really makes up for it to warrant C tier. I MAY use one later, but right now I'm rocking Oshawott.

Blitzle: Blitzle isn't the best Pokemon but it is passable. Discharge and Flame Charge are great moves (but the latter starts to suck late game and Blitzle doesn't need to boosts its freaking Speed of all things), but Blitzle is quite TM reliant otherwise. While Discharge's Paralysis chance and hit-all property in Doubles and Triples (both styles of which rare enough to be insignificant btw) may be nice, Thunderbolt is noticeably more powerful, and that requires a detour to Route 17, and I know I said before that it should be standard to head to there along with all other spots locked behind Surf but it is a backtrack nonetheless and I can see why some count it against Pokemon who need Thunderbolt. Keep in mind however that Thunderbolt is a Special move coming off of base 80 Special Attack. For Physical STAB it's limited to Wild Charge which ultimately lacks power and is a recoil move, and it comes pretty late since the TM comes at Victory Road while you learn it at Level 47. It does hit hard and fast, but I don't see any real good match ups besides Water Starters/Monkeys, Mistralton Gym, Cheren's Unfezant, and some nice match ups in the final battles (Jellicent, Sigilyph, Carracosta, Archeops... actually that's about it). It's definitely a lower C, but I'd like some arguments to keep it out of D.

Deerling: I find Deerling to be a great Pokemon. It's unfortunately not too useful against Driftveil Gym because it lacks a Grass STAB and it obviously sucks vs. Mistralton Gym, but it has a nice movepool (STAB Return is always nice, Horn Leech is great for its healing, JUMP KICK is great for coverage, Wild Charge is also nice for coverage but comes hella late, and Megahorn is always powerful), it has good stats, a nice choice of abilities (although Sap Sipper is the one you want), and it's decent against the final battles (lots of Fighting and Bug weaknesses in the E4, and its Grass STAB has a chance to shine). C rank should probably be the default rank for anything that comes after Nimbasa City but when I look at Deerling I see its power pretty much equal to the B's (except Dweeble who should be C but that's not today's subject).

Druddigon: What? Like, I get that it has a really strong Dragon Claw, and other nice physical attacks (Crunch, Rock Slide, Bulldoze, maybe Shadow Claw and Payback, Return, Rock Climb for that Sheer Force boost, and Revenge is nice with its slow Speed), but for it to be C tier considering how late it comes gives off the impression that it's really good, and I just don't see it. If you're not using Revenge, its Speed is terrible, and combined with 77/90/90 defences which are only passable at best despite its good resistances, it's taking a lot of damage. And besides for the moves I mentioned above, only a few of which are truly useful, it doesn't have much. I may just be underestimating this thing, but it doesn't seem to be higher than D.

Ducklett: I just got finished using a Ducklett and I gotta say it's pretty underwhelming. It deals good damage but not great damage, and even after levelling mine up to get Brave Bird it still felt pretty weak. And it's so frail. And I'm salty about admittedly not using it all that much the further in the game I got. I say it's an HM Slave first (Surf and Fly) and a battler second. Like, it kills things that are weak to its STABs but that's about it, and that's what can be said about almost every Mon. I don't know if it should be D... but goddamn is it pretty much the worst Pokemon in C.

Durant: I can definitely see where the Durant hype is coming from. It has great Attack, Defence, and Speed (but everything else is tragically garbage), even if its movepool consists of nothing but Crunch, Rock attacks, X-Scissor, and Iron Head, and that's all it needs, Hustle is a double edged sword however making your attacks stronger but less accurate, and it kind of shits on a lot of the end game (Crunches Cofagrigus and Golurk to death, X-Scissors Liepard and Krookodile, and all of Caitlin's team to death, can potentially outspeed Hydreigon and kill with X-Scissor), but is this REALLY worth waiting so long in the game for? You're basically forced to grind with it to gets its EVs and levels up to speed, to which you may say to just save your Vitamins but I argue that's totes inefficient. I just don't see how something that comes at VICTORY ROAD can be higher than D.

Gothita: It doesn't have that great match ups, but it's still good. Psyshock lets it get some mixed offence in, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball are nice coverage options, and it has some nice utility with Dual Screens and Thunder Wave. It's stats are definitely nice, but it doesn't really exceed anywhere. Even Marshal gives it trouble since practically his entire team has anti-Psychic coverage. It should probably stay C.

Klink: It's good against the three upcoming Gyms, you can't do as much as you'd like to Shauntal, Grimsley, and Caitlin because the majority of their teams have anti-Steel coverage, and of course you flat out lose to Marshal. Against N, you lose to both Dragons, you have a mirror match with Klinklang, Zoroark has Focus Blast and Flamethrower, you dunk Vanilluxe, you resist all of Archeops (though Acrobatics will still probably deal a good enough amount of damage), while Carracosta has Water STAB to bypass your Rock resistance though you have Wild Charge. Against Ghetsis, you cock block Cofagrigus, Seismitoad and Eelektross both resist you and have Earthquake and Flamethrower respectively, you basically have a mirror match with Bisharp (which is not recommended since it has Metal Burst), Bouffalant has Earthquake, and of course you lose to Hydreigon. I guess it does fine. But it has a late final evolution, one you have to grind for depending on your party's size. In terms of movepool, besides for Return, Gear Grind, and Wild Charge (at Victory Road)... it has nothing. And despite getting lots of cool Special moves, base 70 Special Attack hampers any hope for mixed shenanigans. I'd definitely have to use one, but right now it should probably stay.

Minccino: Really do not know about this one. I should probably give it a spin once I'm done with my current playthrough, but I just don't see anything more than D. Its multi-hit attacks are unreliable without Skill Link, even with Technician, and maybe Wake Up Slap is cool? Please explain this one to me, especially since end game it looks to be a waste of a team slot.

Pansage: It's movepool (Acrobatics, Rock Slide, Low Sweep, and more) is nice, it's Speed and attacks are high enough, and both are equal therefore allowing it to go mixed. My only real issue is that if you don't get the Leaf Stone from Castelia City, the only other one in the game (naturally discounting farming the dust clouds) comes kind of late. I understand that Pokemon need to be looked at in a vacuum for in game tier lists, and that nobody is likely to look for the monkeys you didn't get in the Dreamyard because shaking grass grinding sucks, but it's still a thing. Besides for that it should definitely be B.

Roggenrola (trade): I'll pass judgment on this as I'm going to use one in my current playthrough. It looks like it has nice match ups against four of the Gyms (Nacrene, Castelia, Mistralton, and Icirrus), but I'll wait and see.

Solosis: I'm biased as hell because I love this Pokemon, but I think it should be B. Like Gothita it doesn't have a whole lot of good match ups, and being stuck with Hidden Power until Psyshock kind of sucks, but Magic Guard is a fantastic ability, and its high HP and Special Attack means it can take and deal hits equally. It is, however, really slow, and it doesn't have a very accurate movepool outside of Shadow Ball and STAB, but it kills lots of shit regardless.

Snivy: Enough arguments about Snivy being B have been brought up. Besides, it's a Starter and I'd say that's instant B at the least.

Tirtouga: I know opportunity cost isn't a thing in tier lists but you're still sacrificing Archen for this. While Sturdy and Shell Smash are great, the same can't be said of its stats besides its Attack and Defence, but it has a decent enough movepool. It should probably be C.

Vanillite:

I've already spoken my piece on Vanillite. Even disregarding how I was wrong about Opelucid Gym spamming anything but Dragon Tail (my recently finished playthrough actually confirmed this), nothing has been said to make me change my mind. First off, even if you can get a higher level Vanillite in the dark grass, grinding like ten fucking levels to evolve and be good is shit; you shouldn't have to grind that much to make a Pokemon good, no matter how fast the grinding is because of Audinos and how high the payoff is. While it is decent in Mistralton Gym (and you haven't refuted how Vanillish is slower than the entire gym and will be taking quite a bit of damage because half of the Gym is fully evolved), its match up against Icirrus Gym is still unremarkable and my statement to use something the Gym is actually weak against still stands (doable =/= efficient/good for the record), and how you decided to resort to a completely worthless direct comparison to Tynamo (and then you went off on other tangents) isn't dissuading me about where I stand between the two either, and it honestly weakens your argument to pretty much make the crux of your post an asinine comparison that was never the point. And there's the fact that just because a three man team can get to level 47 by Opelucid City means nothing to me when I use a six man team pretty much every game, no matter how inefficient it's considered. Between lots of let's plays and walkthroughs I've watched and read, as well as in game experience, the average six man team is looking at their late 30's to early 40's by Opelucid City (as well as maybe five levels higher than that for the end game, for the record), so I'm not getting Vanilluxe by this point unless I want to grind, which as I've stated before should not be a requirement for a Pokemon to be good by any measure. I don't see how this think is C material, especially when it's pretty worthless against N and Ghetsis and is only good against maybe four Pokemon in the Elite Four, none of which has been refuted. Not budging on this. But, of course, even if you're the OP, this is still the COMMUNITY's tier list as it's open discussion, so maybe we should let the others decide on it instead of just going back and forth.

So, to wrap this up and give the TL;DR... (*'s are requests for explanations for such high placement)

• To be brought down to D: Druddigon*, Durant*, Minccino*, Vanillite
• To stay at C: Basculin, Blitzle, Ducklett, Gothita, Klink, Roggenrola, Tirtouga
• To be raised to B: Pansage, Solosis, Snivy, Deerling

 

[DrumstickGaming]

I've been looking at C tier and I guess I need some answers for it. I'm just going to comment on the entire list.

Hiding for length, lol

Basculin: This comes pretty late for a Water for requiring Surf, but an Adaptability Aqua Tail (or Waterfall if you prefer accuracy) probably hurts. However, it has an unremarkable movepool with only Return and Crunch as your real non STAB options, and mixed attacking with Surf only really works with base 80 Special Attack because of Adaptability. And to look at its match ups; I guess it's OK at Icirrus for resisting Ice, it doesn't do much to Opelucid besides gambling with Blizzard, it beats Chandelure, Golurk, Krookodile, can Crunch Caitlin and the rest of Shauntal's team, is neutral to everything else, probably doesn't survive Archeop's attacks or the Dragons and is neutral to everything else, can Crunch Cofagrigus but kind of sucks against everything else Ghetsis has. That late arrival is pretty damning when some good enough Waters (Tympole, Panpour, and Tirtouga) come into play much earlier, and its match ups aren't notable, and I'm not sure if its power really makes up for it to warrant C tier. I MAY use one later, but right now I'm rocking Oshawott.

Blitzle: Blitzle isn't the best Pokemon but it is passable. Discharge and Flame Charge are great moves (but the latter starts to suck late game and Blitzle doesn't need to boosts its freaking Speed of all things), but Blitzle is quite TM reliant otherwise. While Discharge's Paralysis chance and hit-all property in Doubles and Triples (both styles of which rare enough to be insignificant btw) may be nice, Thunderbolt is noticeably more powerful, and that requires a detour to Route 17, and I know I said before that it should be standard to head to there along with all other spots locked behind Surf but it is a backtrack nonetheless and I can see why some count it against Pokemon who need Thunderbolt. Keep in mind however that Thunderbolt is a Special move coming off of base 80 Special Attack. For Physical STAB it's limited to Wild Charge which ultimately lacks power and is a recoil move, and it comes pretty late since the TM comes at Victory Road while you learn it at Level 47. It does hit hard and fast, but I don't see any real good match ups besides Water Starters/Monkeys, Mistralton Gym, Cheren's Unfezant, and some nice match ups in the final battles (Jellicent, Sigilyph, Carracosta, Archeops... actually that's about it). It's definitely a lower C, but I'd like some arguments to keep it out of D.

Deerling: I find Deerling to be a great Pokemon. It's unfortunately not too useful against Driftveil Gym because it lacks a Grass STAB and it obviously sucks vs. Mistralton Gym, but it has a nice movepool (STAB Return is always nice, Horn Leech is great for its healing, JUMP KICK is great for coverage, Wild Charge is also nice for coverage but comes hella late, and Megahorn is always powerful), it has good stats, a nice choice of abilities (although Sap Sipper is the one you want), and it's decent against the final battles (lots of Fighting and Bug weaknesses in the E4, and its Grass STAB has a chance to shine). C rank should probably be the default rank for anything that comes after Nimbasa City but when I look at Deerling I see its power pretty much equal to the B's (except Dweeble who should be C but that's not today's subject).

Druddigon: What? Like, I get that it has a really strong Dragon Claw, and other nice physical attacks (Crunch, Rock Slide, Bulldoze, maybe Shadow Claw and Payback, Return, Rock Climb for that Sheer Force boost, and Revenge is nice with its slow Speed), but for it to be C tier considering how late it comes gives off the impression that it's really good, and I just don't see it. If you're not using Revenge, its Speed is terrible, and combined with 77/90/90 defences which are only passable at best despite its good resistances, it's taking a lot of damage. And besides for the moves I mentioned above, only a few of which are truly useful, it doesn't have much. I may just be underestimating this thing, but it doesn't seem to be higher than D.

Ducklett: I just got finished using a Ducklett and I gotta say it's pretty underwhelming. It deals good damage but not great damage, and even after levelling mine up to get Brave Bird it still felt pretty weak. And it's so frail. And I'm salty about admittedly not using it all that much the further in the game I got. I say it's an HM Slave first (Surf and Fly) and a battler second. Like, it kills things that are weak to its STABs but that's about it, and that's what can be said about almost every Mon. I don't know if it should be D... but goddamn is it pretty much the worst Pokemon in C.

Durant: I can definitely see where the Durant hype is coming from. It has great Attack, Defence, and Speed (but everything else is tragically garbage), even if its movepool consists of nothing but Crunch, Rock attacks, X-Scissor, and Iron Head, and that's all it needs, Hustle is a double edged sword however making your attacks stronger but less accurate, and it kind of shits on a lot of the end game (Crunches Cofagrigus and Golurk to death, X-Scissors Liepard and Krookodile, and all of Caitlin's team to death, can potentially outspeed Hydreigon and kill with X-Scissor), but is this REALLY worth waiting so long in the game for? You're basically forced to grind with it to gets its EVs and levels up to speed, to which you may say to just save your Vitamins but I argue that's totes inefficient. I just don't see how something that comes at VICTORY ROAD can be higher than D.

Gothita: It doesn't have that great match ups, but it's still good. Psyshock lets it get some mixed offence in, Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball are nice coverage options, and it has some nice utility with Dual Screens and Thunder Wave. It's stats are definitely nice, but it doesn't really exceed anywhere. Even Marshal gives it trouble since practically his entire team has anti-Psychic coverage. It should probably stay C.

Klink: It's good against the three upcoming Gyms, you can't do as much as you'd like to Shauntal, Grimsley, and Caitlin because the majority of their teams have anti-Steel coverage, and of course you flat out lose to Marshal. Against N, you lose to both Dragons, you have a mirror match with Klinklang, Zoroark has Focus Blast and Flamethrower, you dunk Vanilluxe, you resist all of Archeops (though Acrobatics will still probably deal a good enough amount of damage), while Carracosta has Water STAB to bypass your Rock resistance though you have Wild Charge. Against Ghetsis, you cock block Cofagrigus, Seismitoad and Eelektross both resist you and have Earthquake and Flamethrower respectively, you basically have a mirror match with Bisharp (which is not recommended since it has Metal Burst), Bouffalant has Earthquake, and of course you lose to Hydreigon. I guess it does fine. But it has a late final evolution, one you have to grind for depending on your party's size. In terms of movepool, besides for Return, Gear Grind, and Wild Charge (at Victory Road)... it has nothing. And despite getting lots of cool Special moves, base 70 Special Attack hampers any hope for mixed shenanigans. I'd definitely have to use one, but right now it should probably stay.

Minccino: Really do not know about this one. I should probably give it a spin once I'm done with my current playthrough, but I just don't see anything more than D. Its multi-hit attacks are unreliable without Skill Link, even with Technician, and maybe Wake Up Slap is cool? Please explain this one to me, especially since end game it looks to be a waste of a team slot.

Pansage: It's movepool (Acrobatics, Rock Slide, Low Sweep, and more) is nice, it's Speed and attacks are high enough, and both are equal therefore allowing it to go mixed. My only real issue is that if you don't get the Leaf Stone from Castelia City, the only other one in the game (naturally discounting farming the dust clouds) comes kind of late. I understand that Pokemon need to be looked at in a vacuum for in game tier lists, and that nobody is likely to look for the monkeys you didn't get in the Dreamyard because shaking grass grinding sucks, but it's still a thing. Besides for that it should definitely be B.

Roggenrola (trade): I'll pass judgment on this as I'm going to use one in my current playthrough. It looks like it has nice match ups against four of the Gyms (Nacrene, Castelia, Mistralton, and Icirrus), but I'll wait and see.

Solosis: I'm biased as hell because I love this Pokemon, but I think it should be B. Like Gothita it doesn't have a whole lot of good match ups, and being stuck with Hidden Power until Psyshock kind of sucks, but Magic Guard is a fantastic ability, and its high HP and Special Attack means it can take and deal hits equally. It is, however, really slow, and it doesn't have a very accurate movepool outside of Shadow Ball and STAB, but it kills lots of shit regardless.

Snivy: Enough arguments about Snivy being B have been brought up. Besides, it's a Starter and I'd say that's instant B at the least.

Tirtouga: I know opportunity cost isn't a thing in tier lists but you're still sacrificing Archen for this. While Sturdy and Shell Smash are great, the same can't be said of its stats besides its Attack and Defence, but it has a decent enough movepool. It should probably be C.

Vanillite:

I've already spoken my piece on Vanillite. Even disregarding how I was wrong about Opelucid Gym spamming anything but Dragon Tail (my recently finished playthrough actually confirmed this), nothing has been said to make me change my mind. First off, even if you can get a higher level Vanillite in the dark grass, grinding like ten fucking levels to evolve and be good is shit; you shouldn't have to grind that much to make a Pokemon good, no matter how fast the grinding is because of Audinos and how high the payoff is. While it is decent in Mistralton Gym (and you haven't refuted how Vanillish is slower than the entire gym and will be taking quite a bit of damage because half of the Gym is fully evolved), its match up against Icirrus Gym is still unremarkable and my statement to use something the Gym is actually weak against still stands (doable =/= efficient/good for the record), and how you decided to resort to a completely worthless direct comparison to Tynamo (and then you went off on other tangents) isn't dissuading me about where I stand between the two either, and it honestly weakens your argument to pretty much make the crux of your post an asinine comparison that was never the point. And there's the fact that just because a three man team can get to level 47 by Opelucid City means nothing to me when I use a six man team pretty much every game, no matter how inefficient it's considered. Between lots of let's plays and walkthroughs I've watched and read, as well as in game experience, the average six man team is looking at their late 30's to early 40's by Opelucid City (as well as maybe five levels higher than that for the end game, for the record), so I'm not getting Vanilluxe by this point unless I want to grind, which as I've stated before should not be a requirement for a Pokemon to be good by any measure. I don't see how this think is C material, especially when it's pretty worthless against N and Ghetsis and is only good against maybe four Pokemon in the Elite Four, none of which has been refuted. Not budging on this. But, of course, even if you're the OP, this is still the COMMUNITY's tier list as it's open discussion, so maybe we should let the others decide on it instead of just going back and forth.

So, to wrap this up and give the TL;DR... (*'s are requests for explanations for such high placement)

• To be brought down to D: Druddigon*, Durant*, Minccino*, Vanillite
• To stay at C: Basculin, Blitzle, Ducklett, Gothita, Klink, Roggenrola, Tirtouga
• To be raised to B: Pansage, Solosis, Snivy, Deerling

C:
Druddigon: Perhaps, but I don't see how starting with Dragon Claw and Crunch is so bad.
Durant: Yeah, this could maybe be there.
Mincinno: Hmm. Torn on this one. I'm gonna say C. You can still hit Jellicent, Golurk, Chandelure, Bisharp (Wake-Up-Slap), Krookodile, Sesimitoad, Carracosta, Reshiram and others. This fits with how Magnus described it.
Vanillite: Not budging either. Literally everyone else that has commented on the mon but you has said C.

Thus, I think it's fine at C. It is useful, but has too many flaws and comes late.

I also used Vanilluxe in that White run and the above opinions are consistent with what I thought, C rank is good for it. Good offensive typing, fine bulk, does fine with just ice spam.

So it's 3 Cs to 1 D. Unless other naysayers pop up, this smiling ice cream is smiling in C.

• To stay at C: Basculin, Blitzle, Ducklett, Gothita, Klink, Roggenrola, Tirtouga

Re: Basculin - quoting my old post from pitching the tier list:
"As for underrated stuff, Basculin, of all things, is actually pretty good. While you need Surf to make it good with Adaptability, and it really only uses Waterfall (and to a lesser extent Crunch and Return) and not much else...it was actually good when I used it. Not stellar because low stats, but honestly? If you want a quick Waterfall user and don't care much about availability and having to find a high level one with Repel, it's very serviceable and is pretty unique! Adaptability is also in both versions without exploiting rippling water too! While I didn't use the move, Final Gambit at level 51 could also be good endgame if you want to chunk a mon you can't beat with Basculin's other moves. You can even catch Basculin at level 35 if you wait till post seventh badge. It also gets its full moveset as early as level 28 Aqua Tail (you can reteach Aqua Jet immediately and TM Return). So yeah, not a world beater, but I think it's better than most give it credit for."

Blitzle is fine, Ducklett could maybe stay in C, Gothita and Klink are fine, Roggenrola (trade) is likely going to B based on Texas's performance, Tirtouga can stay because it is cute.

• To be raised to B: Pansage, Solosis, Snivy, Deerling

Pansage-I dunno based on that E-tier recommendation above B is questionable, but possible all the same because Simisage's stats are workable, Solosis is doable, but I'm gonna test it first, Deerling is fine, Snivy is okay but is never seeing A because I don't care how you do your sugarcoating it is not on the level of Oshawott and Tepig, and given you have to give up those two to choose Snivy it is relevant. The amount of times I saw the words "Leech Seed" in the above E4 post was crazy. Sure, that's what it does best, but if the E4 is a slow burn without Coil...Also, it can't OHKO much without a boost. This thing is not going higher than B, and the general consensus has leaned toward B, which I can see.