Sticky Pokemon Direct - 6th June Discussion - Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon

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Pikachu315111

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Don't hibiscus smell nice? It'd be odd to make an Alolan Vileplume into that considering it's based off of a flower that's infamous for smelling horrible.
As Stellar pointed out, Regional Variants do not need to follow in their original forms footsteps. Sandshrew and Vulpix family changed to Ice-types which is an opposing element of their original typing and the Grimer family went from being foul-smelling polluters to odorless garbage cleaners. It all depends on how they decided the environment affects the Pokemon that it will cause a change. Using my as examples:

Gloom/Vileplume/Bellossom: The abundance of sweeter smelling flowers, who's pollen and nectar they absorb, have caused Gloom and Vileplume to smell nicer and use their scent to calm and dull potential threats. Bellossom could instead be more night/moon active; during the day the Alolan Sun is so bright it's either in danger of burning/prefers to stay inactive to absorb as much sunlight/will turn its sweet fragrance to a more sour smell while at night the Alolan Moon is as bright as the sun is in other regions so dances and releases sweet fragrances then.
Farfetch'd: Leeks aren't a native grown Alolan plant so they substituted with something that was equally as long or longer: core of palm trees.
Koffing/Weezing: Absorbing the massive amount of gaseous releases of Alolan's active volcanoes have changes what chemicals it stores.
Jynx: Having observed how natives Alolans use dances to communicate messages and feelings, Alolan Jynx have put more focus on their dancing.
Xatu: Draws upon ancient Alolan ritual and ceremony masks to see different visions depending on the mask it wears. While wearing the mask its brought to a frenzy, as if possessed by the mask.
Sunflora: The Alolan Sun has caused its head to grow bigger, it body growing bigger and more studeir to support the additional weight.
Pineco/Forretress//Shuckle: To better disguise itself, it has changed its shell to resemble a native Alolan nut.

Cheapoman:
Think they should save a possibly Rapidash Pegasus regional variant for a Greek/Italy/Arabian-based region. Same with Mr. Mime, except with a English/Germanic-based region where the tales of the Fair Folk are from. I also feel anything they could have done with Kingler and Noctowl was done with the Crabrawler and Rowlet family.

Also try to ignore exact changes you'd like to see done. Already we're skipping on the edge of Smogon's rule of wishlisting, talking about cosmetic and flavor text changes we'd like to see done is alright though talking about specific Type, Ability, and Stat changes might be crossing the line. Of course if I'm wrong than Mods cross out this last paragraph.
 

Pikachu315111

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Always figured that if it got a second forme, it would resemble an amorphophallus. Not sure if they occur naturally in Hawaii but I know they're in the botanical gardens.
Regional Variants seem to try and re-invent or further expand on a trait about the Pokemon in one way or another, changing it into another carcass plant would kind of defeat the purpose of that.
 
Regional Variants seem to try and re-invent or further expand on a trait about the Pokemon in one way or another, changing it into another carcass plant would kind of defeat the purpose of that.
Hm, I don't know about that. Sandslash is still a pangolin. Ninetales is still a fox. Raichu is still a mouse. Exeggutor is still a palm.
 
And Vileplume would still be a flower. Both Exeggutor are two varieties of palms, so why can't a potential Alolan Vileplume be another variety of flower?
Not saying it couldn't be a hibiscus. I figure that'd look fine and fit thematically, but it is a bigger jump from one type of corpse flower to another compared to a corpse flower to a hibiscus. I was really just offering a counterargument to the statement that one type of corpse flower getting an Alolan forme and becoming a different corpse flower wouldn't be a big enough change when basically no Alolans actually changed species as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah.
 

Pikachu315111

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Hm, I don't know about that. Sandslash is still a pangolin. Ninetales is still a fox. Raichu is still a mouse. Exeggutor is still a palm.
Sandslash went from a desert sweller to mountain peak dweller, Ninetales went from being a fire-type with paranormal powers to an ice-type with mystical powers (yes, there's a difference), Raichu went from using raw electricity for power to manipulating electro-magnetic fields to make itself more maneuverable, and Exeggutor went through a huge growth spurt being in an ideal environment. Yes, they're basically the same creature, but that's because they focused on a different aspect about them to expand upon. The Oddish family, while partially based on the carcass plants, is also based on mythical walking plants like the mandrake. It would still be a walking plant, just a different flower.

I think we should move this discussion to PM if you want to continue it.
 
Sorry, I somehow missed Dewgong in my list. It's been added.

Dewgong is a prime candidate for an Alolan form, since Walrein overshadows it.

EDIT: Really, all I want is a Bug/Dark Alolan Venomoth. The existing Alolan forms either added a type that was rare in the Kanto dex (Persian, Dugtrio, Muk, Exeggutor, Marowak), or had a new type combination (Raichu, Golem), or both (Raticate, Sandslash, Ninetales). Bug/Dark seems like a gimme.
 
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Just give us an Alolan butterfree. Make her part psychic or fairy please.

Or make her Fairy and Psychic type. Emphasize that psychic typing. Think about it. There are SO MANY RIBOMBEES AND CUTIEFLIES AROUND ALOLA! That really should just alter our OG butterly's typing
 
Pokemon Company re-confirmed a main series game for the Switch but won't be seen for more than a year. So USM I'd say will have at least a year to itself (and at least Gen VII is getting sequel games).

But GEEZ, can we slow down a bit on the main series games after this? Like I get it, for Pokemon's 20th anniversary you wanted a new main series games and Nintendo was probably strongly pushing for a main series game on the Switch to finally merge their console and handheld divisions.
Eh wait, they just say main series game, but not specifically what game it is, isn't it? It could be a remake, or a game within Gen7, or well, new generation?
I have been worried about this since not only that to "switch" into home console... this is impractical to me in many level, but oh well....

I remember about Farfetched, one Aether employee gave us its leek stick though and said it is rare thing around, endangering them or something, so maybe it is less likely to get a new forme, unless if the new game is set few years after SuMn that allows them to shift their "weapon" as a whole species.
 

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Eh wait, they just say main series game, but not specifically what game it is, isn't it? It could be a remake, or a game within Gen7, or well, new generation?
Good point, while its agreed that Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon being on the 3DS was done for the sake of consistency, for all we know they're actually working on this gen's remake for the Switch. We've seen what the current Pokemon graphics can look like in high resolution, something the Switch should have no problem doing so they wouldn't need to create a new engine just yet if they're going this route. As always, prime suspect for the remake is Sinnoh but Kanto & Johto still need to be brought into the current timeline. Actually, if anything, Kanto & Johto would make more sense with Alola's strong connection with those regions. Course, I think we'd all like to see an original storyline if they bring back Kanto & Johto, probably taking place after Gen I's story (maybe have it happen alongside Gen VII), so in that sense a Gen IV remake might be preferred as it already has a story that just needs updating and expanding upon.
But that all said, with Switch providing more power GF might want to jump to making a new engine and if they're going to do that they might as well make the next region. Yeah, they could still do remakes, but generally they want remakes to be an added bonus to a new generation and connect to the current gen games. And while still possible to do that with a new engine, it would limit what they can do which is generally why the only connectivity between gens is transferring Pokemon (and not even that anymore with Bank taking over that responsibility).
As always, we'll just have to wait and see. But hey, let's first enjoy the upcoming Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon before worrying about the next games after it; one step at a time.

I remember about Farfetched, one Aether employee gave us its leek stick though and said it is rare thing around, endangering them or something, so maybe it is less likely to get a new forme, unless if the new game is set few years after SuMn that allows them to shift their "weapon" as a whole species.
That would be an interesting gimmick. Instead of focusing on one new item the Alolan Farfetch'd "form" changes depending on what item it's holding which would be reflected by the model. Course my only opposition to this is that would we use current existing items or make whole new items just for (Alolan) Farfetch'd? I already have a problem with them making 18 new items just for Silvally, while I don't have a problem Pokemon getting items only their species can use there's only so many they should get (and even then I will ask couldn't these items have some additional effects for other Pokemon).
 
I definitely think something like Vileplume could get a new Alola form. I've always seen the Alolan forms as pokes adapting to the environment like Pikachu315111 said (similar to the real life Galapagos tortoises and birds), so Vileplume being a better-smelling flower isn't out of the question. I think the Alolan forms are such a great idea that new ones would make sense (although I feel it will be Johto pokes this time - just a feeling).

The ones I would want to see personally are: Furret (always loved it lol), Girafarig (similar to Exeggutor with adjusting size maybe), and Octillery (idk feels like there is a lot they can do with Octillery) with Arbok, Vileplume, and Bellossom making sense too. And I echo the sentiment for a bug/dark or bug/psychic alola form - would be a neat type that I'm sure they could fit into Alola and explain easily
 
To be really honest, lore wise, whatever the region Gamefreak chooses may have to contribute to the Mega evolution timeline for the only timeline that it seems to be complete and clear cut main series wise would be the non-mega evolution timeline (original Generations 1-5).

So far, Kalos, Alola, and Hoenn had their own Mega Timeline lore that diverges from the non-mega timeline. Now, I can really see the potetial complex character arcs in a Mega evolution timeline Unova. I was hoping that I say something Trump related, but let's not. Maybe go big on the concept of liberty. Order vs Chaos. Democracy vs Communism. Gods and Men
 

Pikachu315111

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A while back we were talking about how some Mega Evolutions were too powerful and in order for it to be brought back they'd need to redo them and make them not that OP. But after looking through a batch of Mega Evos, I have a question: which Mega Evolutions were "too powerful"? Is it that certain Mega Evos were made too powerful, or is it that maybe the +100 BST is the problem and each Pokemon should have a BST increase depending on what that individual Pokemon needs and not having a strict standard number? Also should there be a limit to how much a certain stat should be increased? Like offensive Pokemon have their preferred attack stat increased near/above 30% (with additional helpful changes), meanwhile non-Mega Pokemon need to use a Life Orb which comes with a cost of 10% of their HP each time used. Is that too much of increase?
 
A while back we were talking about how some Mega Evolutions were too powerful and in order for it to be brought back they'd need to redo them and make them not that OP. But after looking through a batch of Mega Evos, I have a question: which Mega Evolutions were "too powerful"?
1. Mega Rayquaza... pls no, too many nightmares. Mega Rayquaza's ability and typing made it too OP, with it's only real counter being Fairies (though usually, boosted Mega Ray had no problem 0HKOing them beacuse Ray ran plenty of coverage). With Fairies being a burgeoning type, and not a lot of Pokemon with that typing, there weren't many viable counters to him. The only potential counters I could think of is a boosted Mega Gardevoir (Baton Pass some speed and you might be able to 0HKO before he wrecks you), or Pixie Plate Arceus (has enough bulk to take at least 1 hit). Mega Rayquaza was really "too powerful" (at least for the meta game).

2. The Primals. Okay, they aren't Megas, but they fall along the same line. There's only a couple of viable counters to them, and pretty much all teams had to be geared around countering them if you were playing in VGC 2016. Their abilities alone were powerful (though slightly more so on Primal Groudon), but with their stats, it was just too OP for pretty much every Pokemon to coop.

3. Mega Mewtwo-Y. Psystrike is a powerful move stab move, and with M-Y's speed, it's going to be doing solid damage even if it's not super effective. It has access to a plethora of coverage moves that shore up most of its weaknesses. While M-X is good, it at least as some healthy counters (It has lower speed, lower special bulk, the added weaknesses of fighting types, and the lack of a physical signature move). Given how physical top tier Pokemon are, M-Y had/s no problems sweeping large swaths of teams, beacuse its only real weakness is either failing to OHKO a physical mon, or facing a Dark type (and there really aren't any good enough physical Dark types, except mixed Yveltal). Furthermore, it can boost itself with Calm Mind, which helps alleviate the first weakness.

I could keep going on and on, but I think you see the common problem. It's primarily Legendary Pokemon getting new forms that are too OP. Game Freak, stop bloody giving the Legendary Pokemon boosted form changes!!!!!!!! Gimme more Mega Beedrill and Mega Audino pls.
 

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BlizzardHero:
Yeah, I meant to put in my original post to not bother mentioning the Legendaries since they're usually banned thus probably purposely made OP for the lulz. as Kurona said, I'm looking for opinions on say the Pseudo Legendaries, maybe Starters, some Pokemon where the +100 BST may have not helped so they were given maybe a powerful Ability to compensate (like is Mega Mawile too powerful? I don't know). Go ahead and go on, I would like to see a list of Mega that are considered too OP (and maybe also a list of Mega that are considered okay, to get an idea where a possible line can be).
 
See, I'm not really sure I get the problem when they're making Pokémon that are already banned and overpowered more overpowered. They're not breaking the game because they're not allowed in the game. You could at least say Mega Salamence...
Well, VGC 2016 did not ban any of the Pokemon I mentioned, though past VGC's have. Battle Spot banned(is banning) them, but they were(are) just part of a blanket ban rather than a ban given beacuse they were too OP (and I can't remember if they unbanned them for 2016 to follow VGC rules, I stopped playing competitively during that time beacuse of how toxic the competitive community was getting). Besides, that also doesn't stop Link Battles from suffering from this issue.

Just beacuse they're not allowed sometimes, doesn't mean they stop being OP. If TPC was going to suddenly allow for VGC 2018 >=2 Legends for everyone's teams (without Gen restrictions) again, we'd see Primal Groudon and Kyogre reappear and just be as OP as ever.

A better statement would be to question if it's even Game Freak's job to balance the metagame. Which it isn't. They don't have to give a rat's arse whether or not their mon's are balanced. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we'll ultimately get what's best for Game Freak, not what's best for us and the rest of the competitive community.
BlizzardHero:
Yeah, I meant to put in my original post to not bother mentioning the Legendaries since they're usually banned thus probably purposely made OP for the lulz. as Kurona said, I'm looking for opinions on say the Pseudo Legendaries, maybe Starters, some Pokemon where the +100 BST may have not helped so they were given maybe a powerful Ability to compensate (like is Mega Mawile too powerful? I don't know). Go ahead and go on, I would like to see a list of Mega that are considered too OP (and maybe also a list of Mega that are considered okay, to get an idea where a possible line can be).
There are a few leading edge Pokemon to consider to be close to OP, such as Mega Salamance, Mega Blaziken and Mega Metagross. They all have the common issues that I've displayed with the Legends, being too well balanced stats, high power moves, and polarizing ability (forming teams around/to counter them). However, they are still not really quite OP. They all have a plethora of viable checks, and a lack of reliable recovery moves (something both Arch and Mewtwo have access to). To name a few, Salamance and Metagross both don't like Skarmory, Bronzong can be effective as a multitool stall (he's the one I used the most), Mega Blaziken doesn't like Mega Diancie, or literally any Ghost type (Gourgeist ftw, switch into a High-Jump Kick, looses half his health, chip with Shadow Sneak, and then Flare Blitz becomes nonviable lest he breaks himself upon you). All have sweeping capability, but they also have enough checks it so people have a chance to counter if they're somewhat smart.

If you want success stories, look no further than my bro Mega Beedrill. I know, I bring the Gen 1 bee up too much as a success story, but it's true. Beedrill went from being a terrible Pokemon to pick, to being a powerhouse pick. It's very funny to watch teams melt against it. It has a strong capacity to sweep with high attack and speed (and access to Swords Dance). However, it has a lot of viable checks (even with Drill Run, rock types with Air Balloon or Mega Aerodactyl will do great, or perhaps even defensive walls like Rhyperior and Quagsire). Heck, I used by Girafarig to take one out in doubles once (in much part thanks to my Rage Powder Amoonguss). It can't reliably recover health, and has to rely on its pivot strength and firepower to keep it alive. Thus, we have a great, no really OP mon that went from 0 to hero.

There are some other one's that turned out pretty good, Mega Aggron, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile, and Mega Glalie to name a few. However, since I don't want to keep rehashing the same message, here's it put simply. Pokemon that aren't viable in their current form, but are just close enough to being potentially great, seem to be the biggest winners of the Mega lottery, by not becoming too OP. They usually get 1 or maybe 2 great changes, and some side changes to boot. These changes include but are not limited to, a better ability, a better stat distribution/buff, and/or a new typing. However, while they get these changes, they don't make it so that they no longer have any checks, any one of these Pokemon when faced with 'weaker' Pokemon can be defeated, if the trainer knows what they're doing.

The only real 'failure' of a Mega Pokemon is Mega Audino. Its new typing opened it up to more weaknesses rather than strengths/coverage, its new ability was outclassed by normal ability (Regenerator), and its stats while more bulky, didn't lend themselves to the high life of a sweeper. Coupled with a lack of speed, and you can see why Mega Audino got a short straw (except in the TCG, where Mega-Audino pulled a Se Jun Park Pachi troll).

Idk if that's what you wanted... whelp there goes my night... ;-;
 
I mean VGC 2016 would have been doomed with the 2 legends thing whether we had Mega Legends/Primals or not. Their removal, I assure you, would not have led to a substantially healthier meta.

Regardless, this seems to have moved into a different topic entirely; so while I don't mean to minimod and say that this is probably deserving of its own thread...
 
One of the Pokemon that wasn't in SM but will be in USM has just been released:



Well, that is, if you didn't receive it as part of the movie ticket pre-sale like I did.
 

Jibaku

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I have a question: which Mega Evolutions were "too powerful"? Is it that certain Mega Evos were made too powerful, or is it that maybe the +100 BST is the problem and each Pokemon should have a BST increase depending on what that individual Pokemon needs and not having a strict standard number?
Abilities are something to keep in mind here. A lot of the most powerful Mega Evolution are that way largely because of their newfound abilities (Mence, Kang, Zard, Ray, Gengar), which often give them stronger benefits than the +100 BST. For example, Aerilate normal Salamence with item freedom would be more threatening than a Mega Mence with Intimidate (you could very easily argue that they are very different mons, however, as the latter would fulfill significant defensive roles). Stats matter but for these mons with decent base forme stats already, they tend to not matter *as* much. Except Metagross I guess.

But Pokemon like Mega TTar and Mega Mewtwo Y aren't significantly deadlier than their base forme. The former even has pretty efficient stat boosts. So much is in the abilities that they gain. And yes this is meant to be a direct reply to BlizzardHero 's mention of Mega Mewtwo Y on that list, because the truth is that MMY still often competes with its base forme on many occasions lol. Mega Blaziken and Mega Scizor are fairly significant buffs to their base forme, but still not a whole lot.

Now I'm gonna go slightly off tangent here but I'm going to say that the most successful mega evolutions are not what makes a trash mon viable. At that point, at least from a gameplay standpoint, it's generally just better off to have an alternate, out of battle forme than a Mega. The most successful Megas are what incorporates both its base forme and Mega forme in battle very well. Examples being Gyarados (base forme is viable, makes significant tradeoffs upon mega evolving, and is worth the Mega slot), Slowbro, and surprisingly Rayquaza*. Unfortunately, these examples are far and few in between. Mega Gengar used to have this option but its Mega forme was insane enough that they had to take away Levitate from its base forme to balance it in their standard metas. Stuff like Kang/Mence/etc have small pre-mega utilities but a majority of the time it's better to just hit the mega button right away. And on that note, as much as I love the Primals, Primal Reversion was a silly mechanic because it's virtually no different than an out-of-battle forme change barring some really small things.

*this is more in the context of VGC 2016, because delaying Mega Evolution to ensure Delta Stream won't get replaced later on/maintaining Air Lock for persistent anti-weather, or Mega evolving early for the power/speed and intentionally choosing to get Delta Stream overwritten at a later point are all crucial gameplay elements for Rayquaza. I am intentionally ignoring the part where they overbuffed Rayquaza in general, although in the context of VGC 16 again it really wasn't that broken lol.
 
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Also worth noting are megas like mega Garchomp; debatably worse than their regular forms despite large stat buffs. Now, you'll have to forgive me if I'm inaccurate to the current meta, I haven't been keeping up with the SM scene, but mega chomp has a few problems that hold it back. First off is the obvious item restriction, which is a bit of a blow. The second is the way the stats are distributed. Mega chomp gets +40 to both offensive stats, +20 Defense, and +10 Sp. Def, but -10 Speed. The main issue here is the inefficient distribution of stats and ability. +40 Special Attack is almost unnecessary. Sure, it ends up with a solid base 120 Special Attack, but when you're comparing it to an enormous base 170 Attack, that's pretty irrelevant, as the only reason you would ever want to use a special move is in case of a really tough physical wall. Those stat points would be much better spent in the defenses or speed. Speaking of speed, -10 speed is really a blow. You're dropping a wallbreaker/sweeper's speed down, and barring its access to a Choice Scarf. The trade off for this is 10 extra stat points somewhere (probably in Defense). That seems unnecessary to me. Dropping that speed is really gonna hurt it when that extra defense probably wouldn't matter much against most Ice type moves anyway. Sand Force as an ability is nice, I guess, but also kind of meh. 30% extra damage on Ground Rock and Steel type moves probably won't matter too much when it's coming off base 170 attack anyway. Sand Rush would have been a much better ability IMO. Of course, if stats were distributed mainly into defensive stats (say, drop the Sp. Attack buff and put that into defenses, take 10 from Defense and put it in Special Defense, and you end up with a solid 108/125/125 defense mon), and chomp was given an ability like Solid Rock, it could be a very workable bulky attacker. But I'm just thinking aloud. The moral of this story is that +100 BST isn't gonna help if it's distributed poorly. An ability like Parental Bond might be worth much more.
 
I'm not too sure about that. If I remember correctly, MegaChomp was actually decently popular as a bulky wallbreaker late in gen 6, particularly on teams with Ttar.
 
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