HeartGold and SoulSilver In-Game Tier List
Old Tier List: https://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/hgss_ingame_tier
Old discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heartgold-and-soulsilver-ingame-tiers.3477203/
Approval Status: Approved by DHR-107
(I would like to thank Drumsticks for allowing me to use his layout)
Greetings everyone. If you've been browsing the Orange Islands and taking in the sights, you'll notice that there are In-Game Tier lists. Some are ongoing from several years ago and some have restarted. HGSS ended two years ago with no definitive outcome and the old tier list is rather old. My aim is to revive it, modernize it, and fix it by doing a complete Tier List. Some of you may have some apprehension about a new user having a massive undertaking like this, but I assure you I am not new leading threads. Moving onto our pool of Pokemon. HGSS has a fairly large pool, and this pool has its issues. Most of the Pokemon can't REALLY be used. In fact, some can be easily placed in tiers. My aim is to see where the Pokemon of HGSS should truly call home. Without further ado, let's get this show on the road.
Pokeathlon FOREVER!
What is an In-Game Tier List?
In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on their viability and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough of either game. Regarding HGSS, this means from New Bark Town to the moment you beat Lance at the League. The tester can continue into Kanto and fight Red, however this will not affect the placement as the test officially ends once the League has been beaten. I apologize for those that wished to fight Red for their testing. HGSS is a different game from GSC.
What are Tiers?
In this tier list we originally had 10 tiers. I am dropping this down to 6 including an Untiered. The list as follows:
S-Tier (Uber Tier)
A-Tier (Top Tier)
B-Tier (High Tier)
C-Tier (Upper and Mid Tier)
D-Tier (Lower Mid and Low Tier)
E-Tier (Bottom Tier and Basement)
Untiered
The tier list is alphabetized for convenience. The higher tier a Pokemon is in the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. You will likely note that this differs from the old tier list in that Top/High/Upper Mid/Mid/Low Mid/Low don't exist (this is because we have gradually shifted from the S-E set of tiers over time, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to update it). In addition, we're tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players. However, for HGSS, 4 is optimal. This is entirely up to the tester though. A discussion slate will be ongoing for the Pokemon being tested which will be listed at the end of my posts. This is to keep us on track. However, it is not mandatory for the tester to post his progress unless said tester wants to.
Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?
Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 factors:
Availability: This is how early a Pokemon arrives in the game and how hard it is to find (read: encounter rate). Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or otherwise have a low encounter rate?
Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be of great importance for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank..
Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is crucial for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that supplements the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its both typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general, a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will often be ranked lower on a tier list.
Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Unfortunately this is the Gen before infinite TMs, thus opportunity cost comes into effect. With that being said, if a Pokemon requires a TM found in a detour off the main path this will knock it down in viability potentially.
Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Team Rocket Admin and Executive encounters, Rival encounters, the Elite 4 and Lance. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.
Path Divergence - In GSC and HGSS, the games featured sequence breaking after defeating Morty. You could either go to Lake of Rage or go the way the game is intended which is to Olivine City. For the purpose of testing, Testers can go either way they want, however it is recommended testers head East first to pick up Choice Specs to help with their testing. Testers will NOT have to tell about their Ariana experience nor will this be used for Tiering Placement. In that specific battle you have a level 40 Dragonite helping you out. This would be unfair testing for the Pokemon you have selected.
Which Pokemon are available for the player to use in Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver?
The available Pokemon for the Player are the entire Johto Dex within reason. Pokemon that are Post Game are still available but come in too late to test efficiently.
What tools are allowed for the player to use?
The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. The player is allowed to use items such as X Items, Potions, TMs, and Berries. Keep in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items.
Tier List Key
This signifies what game a Pokemon can be caught in, and whether they need a trade to evolve.
HGSS: Both versions
HG: HeartGold Version only
SS: SoulSilver Version only
(Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.
(No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades).
These following Pokemon unless otherwise noted are version exclusive:
HeartGold (HG):
Here is my opinion on what should be on the tiers so far (with descriptions taken from Its_A_Random's https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion-mkii.3517128/ thread):
S tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.
A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.
B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.
C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.
D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.
E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.
Untiered: The following Pokemon are in the Kanto/Johto Pokedex but are not obtainable prior to beating the Pokemon League
As you can see, very incomplete. I did see a bunch of Noms tho and have taken those into consideration. However, they will not be placed as those were nommed around 2013-2017.
Discussion Slate:
This is where Pokemon being tested currently will be listed. You are free to suggest and talk about other noms not in the slate, but the ones in the slate will have a slight priority in consideration.
GC TMs are blacklisted. Please do not use them in your testing.
With all that said, let's get this underway!
Old Tier List: https://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/hgss_ingame_tier
Old discussion: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/heartgold-and-soulsilver-ingame-tiers.3477203/
Approval Status: Approved by DHR-107
(I would like to thank Drumsticks for allowing me to use his layout)
Greetings everyone. If you've been browsing the Orange Islands and taking in the sights, you'll notice that there are In-Game Tier lists. Some are ongoing from several years ago and some have restarted. HGSS ended two years ago with no definitive outcome and the old tier list is rather old. My aim is to revive it, modernize it, and fix it by doing a complete Tier List. Some of you may have some apprehension about a new user having a massive undertaking like this, but I assure you I am not new leading threads. Moving onto our pool of Pokemon. HGSS has a fairly large pool, and this pool has its issues. Most of the Pokemon can't REALLY be used. In fact, some can be easily placed in tiers. My aim is to see where the Pokemon of HGSS should truly call home. Without further ado, let's get this show on the road.
Pokeathlon FOREVER!
What is an In-Game Tier List?
In-game tier lists rank Pokemon based on their viability and usefulness throughout an entire playthrough of either game. Regarding HGSS, this means from New Bark Town to the moment you beat Lance at the League. The tester can continue into Kanto and fight Red, however this will not affect the placement as the test officially ends once the League has been beaten. I apologize for those that wished to fight Red for their testing. HGSS is a different game from GSC.
What are Tiers?
In this tier list we originally had 10 tiers. I am dropping this down to 6 including an Untiered. The list as follows:
S-Tier (Uber Tier)
A-Tier (Top Tier)
B-Tier (High Tier)
C-Tier (Upper and Mid Tier)
D-Tier (Lower Mid and Low Tier)
E-Tier (Bottom Tier and Basement)
Untiered
The tier list is alphabetized for convenience. The higher tier a Pokemon is in the more it contributes within an efficient playthrough. You will likely note that this differs from the old tier list in that Top/High/Upper Mid/Mid/Low Mid/Low don't exist (this is because we have gradually shifted from the S-E set of tiers over time, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to update it). In addition, we're tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players. However, for HGSS, 4 is optimal. This is entirely up to the tester though. A discussion slate will be ongoing for the Pokemon being tested which will be listed at the end of my posts. This is to keep us on track. However, it is not mandatory for the tester to post his progress unless said tester wants to.
Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?
Pokemon are ranked under the following 5 factors:
Availability: This is how early a Pokemon arrives in the game and how hard it is to find (read: encounter rate). Does it require backtracking, HM moves, or otherwise have a low encounter rate?
Typing - A Pokemon's typing can be of great importance for an efficiency playthrough. How does the typing match-up work against the entire game? If a Pokemon has better typing it is often considered a higher rank..
Stats - A Pokemon's stat distribution is crucial for a Pokemon's success. Does the Pokemon have a stat distribution that supplements the Pokemon's movepool and typing? If a Pokemon has a stat distribution that favors its both typing and movepool it will often be higher on the tier list. In general, a Pokemon that is often slower than it is faster will often be ranked lower on a tier list.
Movepool - A Pokemon's movepool (both level-up and TM/HM) are crucial for a Pokemon. What moves does the Pokemon naturally get and can possibly obtain? Unfortunately this is the Gen before infinite TMs, thus opportunity cost comes into effect. With that being said, if a Pokemon requires a TM found in a detour off the main path this will knock it down in viability potentially.
Major Battles - Major battles consist of Gym Leaders, Team Rocket Admin and Executive encounters, Rival encounters, the Elite 4 and Lance. How does the Pokemon contribute to major battles? A Pokemon that contributes to many major battles will often be seen higher than those that do not.
Path Divergence - In GSC and HGSS, the games featured sequence breaking after defeating Morty. You could either go to Lake of Rage or go the way the game is intended which is to Olivine City. For the purpose of testing, Testers can go either way they want, however it is recommended testers head East first to pick up Choice Specs to help with their testing. Testers will NOT have to tell about their Ariana experience nor will this be used for Tiering Placement. In that specific battle you have a level 40 Dragonite helping you out. This would be unfair testing for the Pokemon you have selected.
Which Pokemon are available for the player to use in Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver?
The available Pokemon for the Player are the entire Johto Dex within reason. Pokemon that are Post Game are still available but come in too late to test efficiently.
What tools are allowed for the player to use?
The player is allowed to use any legitimate means within the cartridge for completing the game efficiently. The player is only allowed to trade to evolve Pokemon and not to receive outside help otherwise. The player is allowed to use items such as X Items, Potions, TMs, and Berries. Keep in mind that items have opportunity costs associated with them and can still contribute to a Pokemon negatively if it requires a multitude of items.
Tier List Key
This signifies what game a Pokemon can be caught in, and whether they need a trade to evolve.
HGSS: Both versions
HG: HeartGold Version only
SS: SoulSilver Version only
(Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of trading for its evolution.
(No Trade) - Pokemon is ranked based off of no trade accessible to the player (this does not include in-game trades).
These following Pokemon unless otherwise noted are version exclusive:
HeartGold (HG):
- Mankey (Routes 9 and 42)
- Primeape (Route 9 and Cerulean Cave)
- Growlithe (Route 7, Route 8, Route 37, Route 36, Route 37, Route 48)
- Spinarak (Route 2, Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Routes 1, 2, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 47 & 48, New Bark Town, Cherrygrove City National Park, Ecruteak City, Safari Zone Gate, Pallet Town, Viridian City, Viridian Forest, Fuchsia City (Headbutt)
- Ariados (Route 2, Viridian Forest (Headbutt))
- Gligar (Route 45)
- Mantine (Route 41)
- Phanpy (Route 45, Mt. Silver)
- Sableye (Route 9)
- Baltoy (Route 3)
- Kyogre (Untiered)
- Vulpix (Route 7, Route 8, Route 37, Route 36, Route 37, Route 48),
- Meowth (Route 5, Route 6, Route 7, Route 8, Route 38, Route 39),
- Ledyba (Route 2, Route 30, Route 31, Route 37, Route 37, Routes 1, 2, 12, 13, 14, 15, 18, 21, 22, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 47 & 48, New Bark Town, Cherrygrove City National Park, Ecruteak City, Safari Zone Gate, Pallet Town, Viridian City, Viridian Forest, Fuchsia City (Headbutt),
- Teddiursa (Route 45, Mt. Silver),
- Delibird (Ice Path),
- Skarmory (Route 45),
- Mawile (Route 9),
- Gulpin (Route 3),
- Groudon (Untiered)
Here is my opinion on what should be on the tiers so far (with descriptions taken from Its_A_Random's https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-x-y-in-game-tier-list-discussion-mkii.3517128/ thread):
S tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the highest levels of efficiency of the available options in the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver versions. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO an overwhelming majority of opponents, limiting the amount of attacks used against them, and possess minimal reliance on items to help assist them defeat opponents at like levels. These Pokémon typically show up before the late-game and any flaws they have are absolutely made up by their advantages.
Abra (Trade)
Magikarp
Red Gyarados
Magikarp
Red Gyarados
A-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be very high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a lot of opponents and are not very reliant on items to succeed, but either have some visible flaws that hurt their efficiency or have their usefulness counterbalanced by a late arrival.
Cyndaquil
Gastly (Trade)
Geodude (Merge)
Heracross
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Machop (Trade)
Onix (Trade)
Totodile
Gastly (Trade)
Geodude (Merge)
Heracross
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Machop (Trade)
Onix (Trade)
Totodile
B-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a fair chunk of opponents and may have a bit of item reliance to assist in sweeping opponents. These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.
Abra (No Trade)
Aipom
Chinchou
Gastly (No Trade)
Girafarig
Lapras
Magmar
Magnemite
Mareep
Miltank
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Pinsir
Raikou
Rattata
Scyther (No Trade)
Staryu
Tauros
Tentacool
Vaporeon
Vulpix
Aipom
Chinchou
Gastly (No Trade)
Girafarig
Lapras
Magmar
Magnemite
Mareep
Miltank
Nidoran-F
Nidoran-M
Pinsir
Raikou
Rattata
Scyther (No Trade)
Staryu
Tauros
Tentacool
Vaporeon
Vulpix
C-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be moderately high. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a reasonable portion of opponents but are matchup-based enough to need some item reliance to assist in sweeping some opponents. These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.
Caterpie
Chikorita
Drowzee
Dunsparce
Entei
Espeon
Flareon
Goldeen
Growlithe
Hoothoot
Jolteon
Machop (No Trade)
Mankey
Mantine
Oddish (Plume)
Poliwag (Wrath)
Poliwag (Toed)
Psyduck
Sandshrew
Scizor
Sentret
Slowpoke (Bro)
Slowpoke (King)
Spearow (Kenya)
Stantler
Voltorb
Wooper
Zubat
Chikorita
Drowzee
Dunsparce
Entei
Espeon
Flareon
Goldeen
Growlithe
Hoothoot
Jolteon
Machop (No Trade)
Mankey
Mantine
Oddish (Plume)
Poliwag (Wrath)
Poliwag (Toed)
Psyduck
Sandshrew
Scizor
Sentret
Slowpoke (Bro)
Slowpoke (King)
Spearow (Kenya)
Stantler
Voltorb
Wooper
Zubat
D-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be average. Pokémon in this tier are able to OHKO or 2HKO a small amount of opponents and tend to be matchup-based enough to need item reliance to assist in sweeping a few opponents. The usefulness of these Pokémon are typically counterbalanced by many visible flaws or are useful Pokémon that come very late.
Bellsprout
Clefairy
Dratini
Ekans
Exeggcute
Farfetch'd
Hoppip
Horsea
Jigglypuff
Jynx
Kanghaskhan
Koffing
Krabby
Lickitung
Marill
Misdreavus
Mr. Mime
Oddish (Bell)
Onix (No Trade)
Paras
Phanpy
Pineco
Qwilfish
Seel
Shellder
Snubbull
Sudowoodo
Swinub
Tangela
Teddiursa
Togepi
Venonat
Clefairy
Dratini
Ekans
Exeggcute
Farfetch'd
Hoppip
Horsea
Jigglypuff
Jynx
Kanghaskhan
Koffing
Krabby
Lickitung
Marill
Misdreavus
Mr. Mime
Oddish (Bell)
Onix (No Trade)
Paras
Phanpy
Pineco
Qwilfish
Seel
Shellder
Snubbull
Sudowoodo
Swinub
Tangela
Teddiursa
Togepi
Venonat
E-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon whose efficiency in terms of completing the game is considered to be low. Pokémon in this tier are generally only able to OHKO or 2HKO specific opponents and suffer from being matchup-based, generally relying on items to assist in sweeping several opponents. These Pokémon either have flaws that outshine its strengths or are otherwise decent Pokémon that come too late to be of any major use.
Corsola
Cubone
Delibird
Diglett
Ditto
Dodri
Gligar
Grimer
Larvitar
Ledyba
Meowth
Murkrow
Natu
Pidgey
Ponyta
Remoraid
Rhyhorn
Shuckle
Skarmory
Smeargle
Spinarak
Slugma
Sunkern
Tyrogue
Umbreon
Unown
Weedle
Wobbufett
Yanma
Cubone
Delibird
Diglett
Ditto
Dodri
Gligar
Grimer
Larvitar
Ledyba
Meowth
Murkrow
Natu
Pidgey
Ponyta
Remoraid
Rhyhorn
Shuckle
Skarmory
Smeargle
Spinarak
Slugma
Sunkern
Tyrogue
Umbreon
Unown
Weedle
Wobbufett
Yanma
Untiered: The following Pokemon are in the Kanto/Johto Pokedex but are not obtainable prior to beating the Pokemon League
Aerodactyl
Articuno
Bulbasaur
Celebi
Charmander
Chansey
Electabuzz
Houndour
Kabuto
Mew
Mewtwo
Moltres
Omanyte
Pikachu
Porygon
Snorlax
Sneasel
Suicune
Zapdos
Articuno
Bulbasaur
Celebi
Charmander
Chansey
Electabuzz
Houndour
Kabuto
Mew
Mewtwo
Moltres
Omanyte
Pikachu
Porygon
Snorlax
Sneasel
Suicune
Zapdos
As you can see, very incomplete. I did see a bunch of Noms tho and have taken those into consideration. However, they will not be placed as those were nommed around 2013-2017.
Discussion Slate:
This is where Pokemon being tested currently will be listed. You are free to suggest and talk about other noms not in the slate, but the ones in the slate will have a slight priority in consideration.
GC TMs are blacklisted. Please do not use them in your testing.
With all that said, let's get this underway!
Last edited: