That's a terrible idea, I should be allowed to pet all the wild Garchomps I want
Even if they punish me for it I'll still do it, I'm a masochist
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Pokemon Legends - Arceus - 28th Jan 2022 *Official Content Only*
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
Even if they punish me for it I'll still do it, I'm a masochist
Something interesting that I noticed on the official website:
Look at the order of the Pokemon. Before today I thought that they arranged this in order of when each new Pokemon/Hisuian Form got revealed, but Hisuian Zorua and Hisuian Zoroark are placed before Hisuian Braviary despite being the most recently revealed Hisuian Forms.
And of course, there's the fact that Arceus is placed at the very end. I don't think any of the other box art legendaries were placed at the end of the Pokemon rows on their respective pre-release websites.
Could it be that the website is ordering the Pokemon based on their number in the Hisuian Pokedex? If so, maybe we can use this to determine how early on in the game we can get the new forms/Pokemon?
Look at the order of the Pokemon. Before today I thought that they arranged this in order of when each new Pokemon/Hisuian Form got revealed, but Hisuian Zorua and Hisuian Zoroark are placed before Hisuian Braviary despite being the most recently revealed Hisuian Forms.
And of course, there's the fact that Arceus is placed at the very end. I don't think any of the other box art legendaries were placed at the end of the Pokemon rows on their respective pre-release websites.
Could it be that the website is ordering the Pokemon based on their number in the Hisuian Pokedex? If so, maybe we can use this to determine how early on in the game we can get the new forms/Pokemon?
So, I thought I'd check their original regional pokedex number
Rowlett: 001
Cyndaquil: 004
Oshawott: 007
Stantler: 131
Basculin: 056
Scyther: 123
Zorua: 076
Rufflet: 133
Growlithe: 058
Arceus: NA
Huh. I assumed it'd be closer, since I knew Rufflet was late, and I assumed Stantler was early since you get it early. I'll still post this in case someone else finds it useful, but original dex does not seem to have any importance to the pattern.
(Also, 7 2 5 2 5 1 5 5 1 4, which is also not useful except for confirming that Kalos and Hoenn are getting screwed, per usual)
I actually wonder if they flubbed the order on accident
You can see it goes in categories: Starters, Actual new Pokemon, Regional Forms, Legendary Pokemon (mythical, whatever)
Which is the same categories and same order as the japanese site, which breaks them into full categories like they've done for the past several games
https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/legends_arceus/ja/pokemon/#section03
except they have it be growlithe, braviary, zorua, zoroark.
You can see it goes in categories: Starters, Actual new Pokemon, Regional Forms, Legendary Pokemon (mythical, whatever)
Which is the same categories and same order as the japanese site, which breaks them into full categories like they've done for the past several games
https://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/legends_arceus/ja/pokemon/#section03
except they have it be growlithe, braviary, zorua, zoroark.
oh shit good catch! Something to note on the American site, though, is that they put Braviary before Growlithe. If your assumption is correct the American site managers would have flubbed that twice. Once can easily be seen as a mistake, but twice... not so much.
I think we'll have to wait for the next reveal to confirm whether this is really a flub or something intentional.
As someone who followed the smash blog for ultimate let me tell you that sometimes they people putting these sites together just make several successive and mysterious mistakes.
I was thinking about 
Hisuian Zoroark while trying to sleep last night, and I ended up, uh, gushing a bit about why it was beautiful and amazing and perfect
I am not sure how much sense this makes, and it involves very liberal reinterpretation of what the Normal type represents, but here goes!!
One of the more obvious uses of the Normal type is for Pokémon like
Kangaskhan and 
Tauros or the various rodents - "this is a 'basic,' usually mammalian Pokémon, and there's no other type that suits it, so Normal is the default" - or for Pokémon like 
Bibarel and 
Pyroar, which may be dual-type but carry with them a lot of similar design tropes in being fairly real-looking wildlife (Pyroar in particular feels like it wouldn't be out of place in the Kanto Safari Zone with a lot of other iconic pure Normal-types, and... well a lot of other Normal-types are the ones that look like things I could find eating grass in my yard and not bat an eye).
Because of this, I remember people being surprised by the Normal type here because it was so clear that they didn't fit that description... uh, at all, let alone any more so than Unovan Zorua - like, was it just tacked on because Normal/Ghost is perceived as inherently cool and they wanted an excuse to make it happen?
If this were the only kind of Pokémon represented by the Normal type, I am pretty confident that Hisuian Zorua just... would not be part Normal; I don't think this standard plays into its design at all, and that's why it's not really what people expect to be Normal-type.
But uh, there's another kind of Normal-type!!
I think this is actually Normal-type in the sense of Pokémon like
Eevee, 
Ditto, 
Porygon, 
Smeargle, 
Castform, 
Kecleon and 
Sawsbuck... and hey, even 
Arceus and fellow Halloween monster 
Silvally - all of these are Pokémon that are known for their malleability and for drawing from the external factors available to them, like their items, their environments or even their opponents.
Basically, the Normal type is because Zorua transforms to match those around it and to blend in:
Crucially, this is a direct contrast to other Zorua! Unovan Zorua casts illusions of things that aren't really there, and that strange and disturbing power is what got them shunned in the first place - but Hisuian Zorua transforms expressly to create common ground with those around it, whether that's to make itself safer or because it has the ulterior motive of preying on their emotions later (it could go either way to be honest).
There are also really rich thematic meanings behind the Normal type here!
Hisuian Zorua are reborn from Zorua that died because they could not adapt to cultural and societal pressure - they were rejected and witch-hunted by humans because their powers were deemed "uncanny," they faced "strife" with other Pokémon in Hisui (this word choice is interesting in itself! it literally means "conflict," sure, but it usually means conflict in a social or philosophical sense, not physical scraps - it sounds to me like another rejection by fearful or at least territorial wildlife that refused to welcome them, not at all like they fell victim to stronger predators or were outcompeted for resources or something... realistically, they were once again being targeted for being Zorua), and they could not fit in.
In other words, they are quite literally the reincarnated forms of Pokémon that died for failing to be accepted as normal - and between that and Hisuian Zorua choosing to appear in forms that are familiar to those around them instead of "being themselves," I think... that says a lot about what they want?
The choice to make Zorua a Normal-type is definitely meant to be justified by its tendency towards mimicry of those around it, and... maybe it's not how they feel by the time they evolve into Zoroark, but that desperate craving to fit in is definitely a key part of Zorua's concept; it's probably also where they get their sad (wistful? longing?) expression in that stage, compared to Zoroark's unhinged anger.
Also!! In other cases, Normal has occasionally associated with Pokémon whose concepts are more deeply ingrained in resembling or mirroring human behaviors, like
Meloetta which straightforwardly represents culture in the form of art, 
Oranguru which is a Pokémon whose behaviors are famously close to human (a lot of Pokémon have human-like tendencies, but Oranguru is a very unique case where taking on the role of a human relative to other Pokémon is the foundation of its concept, so the Normal type is especially relevant here), and... well, uh, is there any obvious reason for 
Drampa to be part Normal except the degree of anthropomorphism in its character?
This in mind, I think that for a Pokémon that has such a direct relationship with human culture and human expectations - one that learned to be the way it is because of the way humans decided it fit into the world - being Normal-type itself is actually a super fitting choice!
It's a testament to the extent that human culture is responsible for molding Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark, whether they could ultimately fit into that culture or not.
And uh...
in the context that they literally died for not being normal enough, it's actually... kind of sad that using their illusory powers to blend in is what makes Hisuian Zorua "Normal" ...
but that only goes to make it that much cooler to see the way Zoroark actively and dramatically rejects this, as if it refuses to be told that blending in is the way it has to live its life (er, undeath), and Zoroark still is a Normal-type!
Maybe the fact that it keeps the type despite having none of the same reasons for it is a contradiction of my take on Zorua, but personally I almost want to see it as a statement in itselfand something of a power move on Zoroark's part!
Here, Zoroark is being allowed to own its identity and to challenge the idea that Normal means what it thought it did as a Zorua; just like every other part of its concept is built around rejecting and standing against the pressure the world puts on it to be a certain way, it is basically saying it doesn't need to match the world around it to have a place in it, and it can define Normal on its own terms.
It's... like the equivalent of the wholesome stories in the anime and LGPE I guess? when they have an Eevee who "just wants to be itself and doesn't need to pick an evolution" - sometimes, rejecting the adaptability and malleability that makes you a Normal type is ~ the most Normal-type option of all ~
(well, that but like
angrier)
It also reminds me a tiny bit of fellow rebellious Normal-type
Obstagoon, which just... outright represents the idea of counterculture in a very direct way!
Realistically, I think Obstagoon was only Normal-type because it evolved from a Zigzagoon variant, but it's still relevant in some ways to see that symbols of identity, independence and nonconformity are not new to Normal as a type and that we have had other Normal-types that directly oppose the prevailing idea of what Normal means.
Admittedly, that may not be exactly what Game Freak was going for (maybe Zoroark just has more in common with Zorua than I realize, or maybe they just thought the type combination was cool and made sense enough on Zorua and it would be silly to take it away when it evolved, or... who can say exactly what thought process they had?), but on a thematic level, I'm actually super happy they went for this and I love it as a design choice!!
Speaking of Zoroark's reversal of what Normal means on Zorua, though...!
This line in general is actually stuffed full of opposites and reversals on in-world levels and meta ones alike.
People demonized Unovan Zoroark and made them out to be monsters, but it's only because of this that Hisuian Zoroark became monstrous demons;
Unovan Zorua were ostracized for their uncanny illusions, but illusions are the very tool Hisuian Zorua use to try to fit in and become familiar to those around them;
the fear of those around them is what got Unovan Zorua and Zoroark killed, but it's what sustains Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark and they need it to survive;
even within the line, Hisuian Zoroark, a Pokémon full of contempt for everything else in the world that violently repels contact with anyone unfamiliar, evolves from a Pokémon that is completely designed to express a desperation to fit in - one whose special ability is representative of familiarity and used to make contact more safely.
Every little thing about their flavor is just... beautifully ironic, and it's clearly deliberate!!
Even more than that, Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark subvert and contradict all of the standards for regional variants on every level, and they seem to be making a point of it!
Yung Dramps raised the point of how well this line opposes the norm for a regional variant: this is a Pokémon that gets a variant not because of the way it adapted to an environment like every other regional variant, but because it failed to adapt and... quite literally just died - it's not the result of natural selection like every other variant; it's a victim of it, and it's the most explicitly negative example of a regional variant we have (compare Alola, where regional variation being inherently positive was actively the point of introducing the feature, meant as a contrast to the Ultra Beasts that failed to adapt like Zoroark here, and even real-world stories were made positive if they weren't already!).
What he highlighted is not the only expectation of variants it turns on its head, either!
Thinking about other variants I've talked about in the past, most of them (or at least most of the good ones P:) come to express or resemble the culture of their region and are adopted into it in their own ways; I've often suggested that if a variant isn't both revealing something about its region's environment and feeding back into it, it's not really doing its job, which is why my favorites are ones like
Grimer that are widely and consistently integrated into their regions even in the overworld and have a tangible impact on places and other Pokémon throughout the game. I am sure Pet Mods people are aware by now that I have long considered Alolan Grimer the perfect regional variant and feel very strongly about it
But the Zorua line is just the opposite - after failing to adapt, Zoroark made a point to reject the outside world and isolate themselves from it; it's emphasized that they are unbelievably hostile to humans and Pokémon alike, and their illusions are characterized as... "expressions of such utter malice toward every last thing upon this world that those who see them are said to be driven mad by the terror" - uh, wow.
This adamant refusal to meet with the world around them on positive terms is actually super integral to the line - in fact, it even influenced the way they were revealed to us!
Like, why was it even possible for the line to be revealed in a found footage-style horror short turned into a "new Pokémon discovery?" It's not just because it's a Ghost-type - imagine how silly it would have been to reveal
Alolan Marowak this way! Yeah, it's a ~ spooooky ghost ~ and all, but it's already important to Alolans and everyone knows about it; you can't make a convincing story about someone discovering it in the wild for the first time, because it has a long history with Alola and is ingrained in Alolan culture, and you would have to be living under a rock to be living in Alola and still think it was a "new Pokémon."
What's special about this line's reveal trailer is that it's a very pointed way of making sure our first impression of the line is the fact that someone has no idea what they are - and it's someone who clearly knows a bit about other Pokémon in Hisui, not someone we're meant to think just doesn't know what he's talking about!
This is another way to emphasize that Hisuian Zoroark have no history of (and no interest in!) engaging with Hisui - Hisuians don't have an established long-term relationship to Zoroark, Zoroark aren't important to the people of Hisui, and that's the point!
This is actually an incredibly strange thing to do with a variant because it goes against all of the things the other variants "want" to do, but making the choice to stand against that assumption is the reason Hisuian Zoroark's concept works at all.
In fact, the line is even unique among regional variants in that its concept - everything important about its backstory - is about regions other than Hisui!
Hisuian Zorua's background of being ostracized and driven out is not a representation of Hisuian people - their story is specifically that "other lands" drove them out and Hisui was the place they tried to find sanctuary, but Hisuian people are not the ones who were hostile to them (and they may not even have gotten the chance to meet them).
This is actually really big ... in a game like Legends, where we are exploring a very small window of a world that is very different from the one we know - and a world where the contrast between "outsiders'" relationship with Pokémon and that of Hisuians is being emphasized more and more.
Using regional variants as devices to develop the setting is something I care about a whole lot and it's the reason so many of Alola's stuck with me(Grimer especially), and it's because the line does exactly the opposite of what we're used to - not talking about Hisui directly but making a commentary on the world beyond Hisui and exploring what the time period of Legends is like in places we can't visit ourselves and probably never will - that Hisuian Zoroark adds so much to the setting; its purpose is to set up a juxtaposition that would not have been complete without it.
Like, every other regional variant tells us what makes its home different by spelling out some part of its culture that relates to the Pokémon, telling us why it's important to the people of the region and elaborating on what about the region made it change the way it did...
but Hisuian Zoroark pointedly rejects that like it rejects every other convention: literally its entire role is to ask "what's supposed to make Hisui different from all of these other places?"
And... I mean, they're answering that in plenty of other ways!
We have the Galaxy Expedition Team representing the same viewpoints as the world that rejected Zoroark, as emphasized by the increasingly iconic "Pokémon are terrifying creatures!" screenshot, but all of the dialogue we've seen so far reminds us that Hisui's way is different - they have positive relationships with all Pokémon and they treat all Pokémon with respect, and what Hisuian Zoroark is here to show us is that other regions often don't.
Basically, Hisuian Zoroark is an actively backwards regional variant - it's a Pokémon that failed to adapt to Hisui, that refuses to engage with Hisui by isolating itself and rejecting outside contact, and that fleshes out the rest of the world by contrasting it with information we would already have on Hisui with or without it - but it's all done in a way that still draws our attention to what makes Legends a different setting and Hisui a unique part of it, not in a way that's just apathetic to the setting altogether and loses sight of what a regional variant can be used to accomplish cries in Galar.
Its very concept revolves around a series of rejections - first the world rejecting it in so many ways for not fitting in, then itself rejecting the need to fit in with the world - to such an extreme that it doesn't resemble conventional Normal-types at all, but even in being designed to contradict Normal conventions, it keeps those conventions close to the heart of its concept and it would not be what it is without them.
It deliberately plays to the features of the Normal type in an abnormal way... and the result is a Pokémon that's Normal-type for being abnormal!
Everything about Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark shares a common theme of contradictions and subversions and doing things opposite the way we expect, so...
that long-awaited, much-anticipated and inherently contradictory type combination that is Normal/Ghost?
This is literally the perfect candidate for it C:
So yeah I am currently in love with this goshdarned Pokémon please help
edit: aaa minor typos
Hisuian Zoroark while trying to sleep last night, and I ended up, uh, gushing a bit about why it was beautiful and amazing and perfectI am not sure how much sense this makes, and it involves very liberal reinterpretation of what the Normal type represents, but here goes!!
One of the more obvious uses of the Normal type is for Pokémon like
Kangaskhan and Tauros or the various rodents - "this is a 'basic,' usually mammalian Pokémon, and there's no other type that suits it, so Normal is the default" - or for Pokémon like Bibarel and Pyroar, which may be dual-type but carry with them a lot of similar design tropes in being fairly real-looking wildlife (Pyroar in particular feels like it wouldn't be out of place in the Kanto Safari Zone with a lot of other iconic pure Normal-types, and... well a lot of other Normal-types are the ones that look like things I could find eating grass in my yard and not bat an eye).Because of this, I remember people being surprised by the Normal type here because it was so clear that they didn't fit that description... uh, at all, let alone any more so than Unovan Zorua - like, was it just tacked on because Normal/Ghost is perceived as inherently cool and they wanted an excuse to make it happen?
If this were the only kind of Pokémon represented by the Normal type, I am pretty confident that Hisuian Zorua just... would not be part Normal; I don't think this standard plays into its design at all, and that's why it's not really what people expect to be Normal-type.
But uh, there's another kind of Normal-type!!
I think this is actually Normal-type in the sense of Pokémon like
Eevee, Ditto, Porygon, Smeargle, Castform, Kecleon and Sawsbuck... and hey, even Arceus and Silvally - all of these are Pokémon that are known for their malleability and for drawing from the external factors available to them, like their items, their environments or even their opponents.Basically, the Normal type is because Zorua transforms to match those around it and to blend in:
"If Hisuian Zorua spot a lone person or Pokémon, the Zorua may appear before them in a guise mimicking the target’s appearance."
Crucially, this is a direct contrast to other Zorua! Unovan Zorua casts illusions of things that aren't really there, and that strange and disturbing power is what got them shunned in the first place - but Hisuian Zorua transforms expressly to create common ground with those around it, whether that's to make itself safer or because it has the ulterior motive of preying on their emotions later (it could go either way to be honest).
There are also really rich thematic meanings behind the Normal type here!
Hisuian Zorua are reborn from Zorua that died because they could not adapt to cultural and societal pressure - they were rejected and witch-hunted by humans because their powers were deemed "uncanny," they faced "strife" with other Pokémon in Hisui (this word choice is interesting in itself! it literally means "conflict," sure, but it usually means conflict in a social or philosophical sense, not physical scraps - it sounds to me like another rejection by fearful or at least territorial wildlife that refused to welcome them, not at all like they fell victim to stronger predators or were outcompeted for resources or something... realistically, they were once again being targeted for being Zorua), and they could not fit in.
In other words, they are quite literally the reincarnated forms of Pokémon that died for failing to be accepted as normal - and between that and Hisuian Zorua choosing to appear in forms that are familiar to those around them instead of "being themselves," I think... that says a lot about what they want?
The choice to make Zorua a Normal-type is definitely meant to be justified by its tendency towards mimicry of those around it, and... maybe it's not how they feel by the time they evolve into Zoroark, but that desperate craving to fit in is definitely a key part of Zorua's concept; it's probably also where they get their sad (wistful? longing?) expression in that stage, compared to Zoroark's unhinged anger.
Also!! In other cases, Normal has occasionally associated with Pokémon whose concepts are more deeply ingrained in resembling or mirroring human behaviors, like
Meloetta which straightforwardly represents culture in the form of art, Oranguru which is a Pokémon whose behaviors are famously close to human (a lot of Pokémon have human-like tendencies, but Oranguru is a very unique case where taking on the role of a human relative to other Pokémon is the foundation of its concept, so the Normal type is especially relevant here), and... well, uh, is there any obvious reason for Drampa to be part Normal except the degree of anthropomorphism in its character?This in mind, I think that for a Pokémon that has such a direct relationship with human culture and human expectations - one that learned to be the way it is because of the way humans decided it fit into the world - being Normal-type itself is actually a super fitting choice!
It's a testament to the extent that human culture is responsible for molding Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark, whether they could ultimately fit into that culture or not.
And uh...
in the context that they literally died for not being normal enough, it's actually... kind of sad that using their illusory powers to blend in is what makes Hisuian Zorua "Normal" ...
but that only goes to make it that much cooler to see the way Zoroark actively and dramatically rejects this, as if it refuses to be told that blending in is the way it has to live its life (er, undeath), and Zoroark still is a Normal-type!
Maybe the fact that it keeps the type despite having none of the same reasons for it is a contradiction of my take on Zorua, but personally I almost want to see it as a statement in itself
Here, Zoroark is being allowed to own its identity and to challenge the idea that Normal means what it thought it did as a Zorua; just like every other part of its concept is built around rejecting and standing against the pressure the world puts on it to be a certain way, it is basically saying it doesn't need to match the world around it to have a place in it, and it can define Normal on its own terms.
It's... like the equivalent of the wholesome stories in the anime and LGPE I guess? when they have an Eevee who "just wants to be itself and doesn't need to pick an evolution" - sometimes, rejecting the adaptability and malleability that makes you a Normal type is ~ the most Normal-type option of all ~
(well, that but like
angrier)
It also reminds me a tiny bit of fellow rebellious Normal-type
Obstagoon, which just... outright represents the idea of counterculture in a very direct way!Realistically, I think Obstagoon was only Normal-type because it evolved from a Zigzagoon variant, but it's still relevant in some ways to see that symbols of identity, independence and nonconformity are not new to Normal as a type and that we have had other Normal-types that directly oppose the prevailing idea of what Normal means.
Admittedly, that may not be exactly what Game Freak was going for (maybe Zoroark just has more in common with Zorua than I realize, or maybe they just thought the type combination was cool and made sense enough on Zorua and it would be silly to take it away when it evolved, or... who can say exactly what thought process they had?), but on a thematic level, I'm actually super happy they went for this and I love it as a design choice!!
Speaking of Zoroark's reversal of what Normal means on Zorua, though...!
This line in general is actually stuffed full of opposites and reversals on in-world levels and meta ones alike.
People demonized Unovan Zoroark and made them out to be monsters, but it's only because of this that Hisuian Zoroark became monstrous demons;
Unovan Zorua were ostracized for their uncanny illusions, but illusions are the very tool Hisuian Zorua use to try to fit in and become familiar to those around them;
the fear of those around them is what got Unovan Zorua and Zoroark killed, but it's what sustains Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark and they need it to survive;
even within the line, Hisuian Zoroark, a Pokémon full of contempt for everything else in the world that violently repels contact with anyone unfamiliar, evolves from a Pokémon that is completely designed to express a desperation to fit in - one whose special ability is representative of familiarity and used to make contact more safely.
Every little thing about their flavor is just... beautifully ironic, and it's clearly deliberate!!
Even more than that, Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark subvert and contradict all of the standards for regional variants on every level, and they seem to be making a point of it!
Yung Dramps raised the point of how well this line opposes the norm for a regional variant: this is a Pokémon that gets a variant not because of the way it adapted to an environment like every other regional variant, but because it failed to adapt and... quite literally just died - it's not the result of natural selection like every other variant; it's a victim of it, and it's the most explicitly negative example of a regional variant we have (compare Alola, where regional variation being inherently positive was actively the point of introducing the feature, meant as a contrast to the Ultra Beasts that failed to adapt like Zoroark here, and even real-world stories were made positive if they weren't already!).
What he highlighted is not the only expectation of variants it turns on its head, either!
Thinking about other variants I've talked about in the past, most of them (or at least most of the good ones P:) come to express or resemble the culture of their region and are adopted into it in their own ways; I've often suggested that if a variant isn't both revealing something about its region's environment and feeding back into it, it's not really doing its job, which is why my favorites are ones like
Grimer that are widely and consistently integrated into their regions even in the overworld and have a tangible impact on places and other Pokémon throughout the game. I am sure Pet Mods people are aware by now that I have long considered Alolan Grimer the perfect regional variant and feel very strongly about itBut the Zorua line is just the opposite - after failing to adapt, Zoroark made a point to reject the outside world and isolate themselves from it; it's emphasized that they are unbelievably hostile to humans and Pokémon alike, and their illusions are characterized as... "expressions of such utter malice toward every last thing upon this world that those who see them are said to be driven mad by the terror" - uh, wow.
This adamant refusal to meet with the world around them on positive terms is actually super integral to the line - in fact, it even influenced the way they were revealed to us!
Like, why was it even possible for the line to be revealed in a found footage-style horror short turned into a "new Pokémon discovery?" It's not just because it's a Ghost-type - imagine how silly it would have been to reveal
Alolan Marowak this way! Yeah, it's a ~ spooooky ghost ~ and all, but it's already important to Alolans and everyone knows about it; you can't make a convincing story about someone discovering it in the wild for the first time, because it has a long history with Alola and is ingrained in Alolan culture, and you would have to be living under a rock to be living in Alola and still think it was a "new Pokémon."What's special about this line's reveal trailer is that it's a very pointed way of making sure our first impression of the line is the fact that someone has no idea what they are - and it's someone who clearly knows a bit about other Pokémon in Hisui, not someone we're meant to think just doesn't know what he's talking about!
This is another way to emphasize that Hisuian Zoroark have no history of (and no interest in!) engaging with Hisui - Hisuians don't have an established long-term relationship to Zoroark, Zoroark aren't important to the people of Hisui, and that's the point!
This is actually an incredibly strange thing to do with a variant because it goes against all of the things the other variants "want" to do, but making the choice to stand against that assumption is the reason Hisuian Zoroark's concept works at all.
In fact, the line is even unique among regional variants in that its concept - everything important about its backstory - is about regions other than Hisui!
Hisuian Zorua's background of being ostracized and driven out is not a representation of Hisuian people - their story is specifically that "other lands" drove them out and Hisui was the place they tried to find sanctuary, but Hisuian people are not the ones who were hostile to them (and they may not even have gotten the chance to meet them).
This is actually really big ... in a game like Legends, where we are exploring a very small window of a world that is very different from the one we know - and a world where the contrast between "outsiders'" relationship with Pokémon and that of Hisuians is being emphasized more and more.
Using regional variants as devices to develop the setting is something I care about a whole lot and it's the reason so many of Alola's stuck with me
Like, every other regional variant tells us what makes its home different by spelling out some part of its culture that relates to the Pokémon, telling us why it's important to the people of the region and elaborating on what about the region made it change the way it did...
but Hisuian Zoroark pointedly rejects that like it rejects every other convention: literally its entire role is to ask "what's supposed to make Hisui different from all of these other places?"
And... I mean, they're answering that in plenty of other ways!
We have the Galaxy Expedition Team representing the same viewpoints as the world that rejected Zoroark, as emphasized by the increasingly iconic "Pokémon are terrifying creatures!" screenshot, but all of the dialogue we've seen so far reminds us that Hisui's way is different - they have positive relationships with all Pokémon and they treat all Pokémon with respect, and what Hisuian Zoroark is here to show us is that other regions often don't.
Basically, Hisuian Zoroark is an actively backwards regional variant - it's a Pokémon that failed to adapt to Hisui, that refuses to engage with Hisui by isolating itself and rejecting outside contact, and that fleshes out the rest of the world by contrasting it with information we would already have on Hisui with or without it - but it's all done in a way that still draws our attention to what makes Legends a different setting and Hisui a unique part of it, not in a way that's just apathetic to the setting altogether and loses sight of what a regional variant can be used to accomplish cries in Galar.
Its very concept revolves around a series of rejections - first the world rejecting it in so many ways for not fitting in, then itself rejecting the need to fit in with the world - to such an extreme that it doesn't resemble conventional Normal-types at all, but even in being designed to contradict Normal conventions, it keeps those conventions close to the heart of its concept and it would not be what it is without them.
It deliberately plays to the features of the Normal type in an abnormal way... and the result is a Pokémon that's Normal-type for being abnormal!
Everything about Hisuian Zorua and Zoroark shares a common theme of contradictions and subversions and doing things opposite the way we expect, so...
that long-awaited, much-anticipated and inherently contradictory type combination that is Normal/Ghost?
This is literally the perfect candidate for it C:
TL;DR:
- Normal/Ghost in the most literal terms: it's Normal, but it's also the type opposite Normal;
- Hisuian Zoroark: it has the defining characteristics of Normal as a type, but it is also the opposite of a Normal-type!
As a Pokémon largely themed after rejection - nonconformity, subversions and contradictions - this is a really cool and original take on what Normal/Ghost is allowed to mean and I adore it
edit: aaa minor typos
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Add in the litwick lines basis on the Hitodama and operating more like a will-o-wisp than basically any other ghost type
Personally i really like that the Zoroark form that is actually a threat to people isn't the Dark-Type one. I feel like most people after learning that Dark-Type in japanese is something close to Evil-Type take that at face value and think Dark is meant to represent the Pokémon being quite literally evil/villainous, when in reality most of the time Dark refers to some sort of unfair tactic, pranks and the like - Its often based on shady ways the Pokémon use to do their thing but doesn't mean that "their thing" is something evil. With Unovan Zoroark, it is a Dark-Type because it uses Illusions to trick opponents and Zorua has a mischievous nature, but most of their dex entries explicitly mention they use their illusions for defending themselves and avoiding conflict.
Hisuian Zoroark however is an aggressive form that actually does mean harm, and given its nature it could very easily be written off as Evil, going as far as its illusions reflecting its personality in that unlike Unovan's, Hisuian'sillusions can actually hurt others - And all of this is done in the form that distinctively isn't "Evil-Type"
Hisuian Zoroark however is an aggressive form that actually does mean harm, and given its nature it could very easily be written off as Evil, going as far as its illusions reflecting its personality in that unlike Unovan's, Hisuian'sillusions can actually hurt others - And all of this is done in the form that distinctively isn't "Evil-Type"
Even Darkrai, the literal edge Pokemon, isn't inherently evil. In most of his appearances he's just a cool, misunderstood dude. His nightmares and dreams are only a defense mechanism, or at the very least not purposely malicious
Similarly Yveltal, the literal avatar of death, isn't evil. It merely ends the life that Xerneas brings. Without death the abundance of life would cause resource shortages, starvation, and overcrowding. Yveltal doesn't kill because it enjoys it but because it is its very nature.
Some Pokemon definitely are assholes who enjoy causing harm but it isn't necessarily tied to the Dark type.
And all so Shauntal could just have a fourth Ghost-type on her team. Maybe they could have either made the Woobat family Ghost-type instead of Psychic, or just have a Swoobat on her team (it can learn Shadow Ball, is weak to Ghost & Dark-type moves, and quad resists Fighting) as it'll fit in with her aesthetic just like how Agatha used a Golbat on her team.
Night Terror?
If we're to assume they came from say Unova thus had to travel by boat, maybe Illusioned itself as another smaller Pokemon & hid on a boat.
How far back do you think Legend's takes place? It's only like 200 years ago at most.
You maybe not too far off, Lockstin release his video about them and mentioned that the specific kind of Kitsune they're based on are the Yako which attack humans by giving them smallpox (that part starts at 5:20).
That would be very nice...
Which seems a bit odd as Zorua & Zoroark look to be 50% hair, you'd think that would have given them some insulation.
Well couldn't you sort of do that in the Wild Area? Like when you first get there and the later upper half have Pokemon way up in Levels you likely have no chance of defeating and some will make a beeline to you if they spot you. And to top it off, you can do a spin and Leon's Charizard pose in front of them and most Pokemon would stop, watch you do it, and possibly react before moving on (or charging into you).
Trainer: Look at me twirl~
H-Zorua: Should-should we attack them?
H-Zoroark: Wait, before we do, I wanna see where this goes...
I don't think the cold is the problem here. I think it's a combination of rugged terrain, toughened prey, and flat-out getting culled by monsters like wild Luxray—a territorial pack predator with natural x-ray vision(!!!) for thwarting illusions, to name one example.Official site said:
It would be odd if it were the cold that did them in, but the text doesn't necessarily refer to climate. The Tricky Fox Pokémon didn't (just) freeze. Rather, they acclimated poorly, stumbled on the rocky slopes, starved in winter, and fell victim to unmentionable violence at the hands of competitors who can see through walls.
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How long have they been in Hisui?
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, you're implying they crossed over something like a land or ice bridge, right? Those would be thousands of years ago, around the ice age I imagine. I would think the Zorua family would have been forced out at most only a few hundred years ago, or at least a few thousands years apart from the end of the ice age.
When it comes to Pokemon there's one answer for everything
Hoopa shenanigans! It saw how Zoruas and Zoroarks were being mistreated in Unova and brought them to Hisui, and then they all died cause Hoopa failed to understand the extremity of Hisui's environment and ecosystem. Silly Hoopa!
Hoopa shenanigans! It saw how Zoruas and Zoroarks were being mistreated in Unova and brought them to Hisui, and then they all died cause Hoopa failed to understand the extremity of Hisui's environment and ecosystem. Silly Hoopa!
Reminds me of the old game Spore where you could use your UFO to transport wildlife between planets. But sometimes they suffocated, drowned, or violently exploded if they weren't compatible with the drop off location.
Environment and ecosystem are very important to consider when teleporting wildlife! Think Hoopa think!
- X Dex: This troublemaker sends anything and everything to faraway places using its loop, which can warp space.
- Omega Ruby Dex: In its true form, it possess a huge amount of power. Legends of its avarice tell how it once carried off an entire castle to gain the treasure hidden within.
While we're waiting for the next news, probably later in November, I figured it might be interesting to take a look at which Sinnoh natives have yet to be seen in trailers or promotional art, particularly since it seems relevant to one of the hints in the supposed 'riddler collage' that has been going around.
Comparing Serebii's Hisui Pokedex so far and the DP pokedex, the following families have yet to be displayed:
Cranidos line
Shieldon line
Cherubi line
Spiritomb
Sneasel line
Lickitung line
Togepi line
Porygon line 
Duskull line
Rotom
Legendaries and mythicals other than Arceus
Now, Serebii's Hisui dex list includes all pokemon from a line, even if only one Pokemon from that line has been shown (presumably under the assumption that even if an unshown mon has a Hisui form, the regular form will still be coded in the game, a la cofagrigus being in the Galar dex). So, for example, I didn't try to list Pokemon like Mantine, which I don't think has actually been shown, only mantyke, since I don't have time to scour all the footage to see which haven't actually been shown off). (An exception to this seems to be Mime Jr., not included in the dex list even though Mr. Mime has been shown, presumably just an error on Serebii's part). Note also that some pokemon have been included in the dex just because they were shown in art---the lumineon line is shown on the map, and I believe Mismagius was shown in some promo art, but neither has been seen in a trailer. Also maybe of note for anyone inspired to look through the footage themselves to see exactly who has been shown and who hasn't: remember to check different language versions (Dustox was shown in a Japanese trailer but not English) and the August Pokemon presents (Frosslass appears in this but not any trailers). So, with regard to the discussion below about possible Hisui variants, there are potentially more options than what are in this list, even just confined to the Sinnoh dex.
Anyways, for some of the lines in the above list it would make sense if they are not included at all, particularly the fossils, porygon line, and rotom, which in lore where modern creations/discoveries. There's of course nothing stopping a retcon (discovering a surviving colony of the fossils, encountering rotom and assuming your records are lost before the eventual rediscovery in modern Sinnoh, introducing a regional origami porygon that formed the inspiration for the later creation), but otherwise nothing to really raise any eyebrows here. Similarly, not showing off legendaries and mythicals yet is not surprising.
The others have more potential for possibly having a Hisui variant somewhere in their line. Now, my base assumption is to lean towards it being more unlikely for a line that was already in the Sinnoh dex to recieve a Hisuian variant, and that these lines not appearing so far is more likely just a Dustox situation (just happen to have not been shown so far). However, if any Sinnoh mons were to receive variants I would guess it's the cross-gen evos. (i.e., I'm guessing no Hisui Cherubi or Spiritomb).
So, conclusion so far: although I think Hisui variants of Sinnoh mons are relatively unlikely, given the officially available information, if any do receive variants these four lines would be the most likely options, given that their lines have yet to appear at all in any art or trailers: the togepi line, duskull line, sneasel line, and lickitung line.
This list is notable because the riddler collage rumor going around---which supposedly hinted towards Zorua/Zoroark before the reveal, lending it a modicum of credibility---has made specific claims about one or more of these lines, so a reveal of those lines could dent the credibility of this rumor. Since there may be something to these hints, I thought I would briefly recap who has been posting about them and what has been claimed so far for anyone interested, but happy to delete if mods think this is still too speculative. I won't post any images, but I will put the rest of this post in spoiler tags, since it will discuss the riddler collage, so if you don't want to see a recap/discussion of potential leaks I recommend not quoting this post directly!
Comparing Serebii's Hisui Pokedex so far and the DP pokedex, the following families have yet to be displayed:
Cranidos line
Shieldon line
Cherubi line
Spiritomb
Sneasel line
Lickitung line
Togepi line
Porygon line
Duskull line
Rotom
Legendaries and mythicals other than Arceus
Now, Serebii's Hisui dex list includes all pokemon from a line, even if only one Pokemon from that line has been shown (presumably under the assumption that even if an unshown mon has a Hisui form, the regular form will still be coded in the game, a la cofagrigus being in the Galar dex). So, for example, I didn't try to list Pokemon like Mantine, which I don't think has actually been shown, only mantyke, since I don't have time to scour all the footage to see which haven't actually been shown off). (An exception to this seems to be Mime Jr., not included in the dex list even though Mr. Mime has been shown, presumably just an error on Serebii's part). Note also that some pokemon have been included in the dex just because they were shown in art---the lumineon line is shown on the map, and I believe Mismagius was shown in some promo art, but neither has been seen in a trailer. Also maybe of note for anyone inspired to look through the footage themselves to see exactly who has been shown and who hasn't: remember to check different language versions (Dustox was shown in a Japanese trailer but not English) and the August Pokemon presents (Frosslass appears in this but not any trailers). So, with regard to the discussion below about possible Hisui variants, there are potentially more options than what are in this list, even just confined to the Sinnoh dex.
Anyways, for some of the lines in the above list it would make sense if they are not included at all, particularly the fossils, porygon line, and rotom, which in lore where modern creations/discoveries. There's of course nothing stopping a retcon (discovering a surviving colony of the fossils, encountering rotom and assuming your records are lost before the eventual rediscovery in modern Sinnoh, introducing a regional origami porygon that formed the inspiration for the later creation), but otherwise nothing to really raise any eyebrows here. Similarly, not showing off legendaries and mythicals yet is not surprising.
The others have more potential for possibly having a Hisui variant somewhere in their line. Now, my base assumption is to lean towards it being more unlikely for a line that was already in the Sinnoh dex to recieve a Hisuian variant, and that these lines not appearing so far is more likely just a Dustox situation (just happen to have not been shown so far). However, if any Sinnoh mons were to receive variants I would guess it's the cross-gen evos. (i.e., I'm guessing no Hisui Cherubi or Spiritomb).
So, conclusion so far: although I think Hisui variants of Sinnoh mons are relatively unlikely, given the officially available information, if any do receive variants these four lines would be the most likely options, given that their lines have yet to appear at all in any art or trailers: the togepi
line, duskull line, sneasel line, and lickitung line.This list is notable because the riddler collage rumor going around---which supposedly hinted towards Zorua/Zoroark before the reveal, lending it a modicum of credibility---has made specific claims about one or more of these lines, so a reveal of those lines could dent the credibility of this rumor. Since there may be something to these hints, I thought I would briefly recap who has been posting about them and what has been claimed so far for anyone interested, but happy to delete if mods think this is still too speculative. I won't post any images, but I will put the rest of this post in spoiler tags, since it will discuss the riddler collage, so if you don't want to see a recap/discussion of potential leaks I recommend not quoting this post directly!
I think a screenshot of just three of the hints in the collage, related to the starter typings, was posted earlier in the thread, but there is a larger version with 12 hints for variant lines/new evolutions that has been going around. Here is the collage posted and discussed by "Riddler Khu" on twitter, who is supposedly not the legendary Chinese riddler, but has some relation with them and has been collating/communicating the riddler's hints on chinese social media to Twitter. Khu claims that this collage was made for Japanese and Chinese communities, and the hints are culturally specific, and the image was stolen by centro, who reposted hints without credit that lost a lot in translation. This collage has also been discussed extensively by eclipe_tt on twitter, who claims the collage is legit and has also been claiming to have an insider source. Eclipse also discussed all of this and the Centro stuff in a podcast they reposted on youtube. Some of this is also consistent with claims made by the 'Ball guy leaks' twitter account, who is also routinely retweeted by eclipse. The three accounts are more or less consistent with each other, though they also suggest that the others may also be posting some false information.
Ok, so is there any actual reason to suspect these hints are legit and not just someone trying to claim to be the riddler? Well, maybe. The collage was posted before the full reveal of Zorua/Zoroark, e.g. here in this tweet by eclipse, who claimed that the second image was hinting towards the reveal. I am not familiar with one piece, but supposedly the characters shown in the image are someone named 'Zorro' and a character with ghostly powers. So, potentially actually hinting at a ghost type Zorua/Zoroark. The Ball Guy Leaks account also posted independent hints pointing to Zoroark prior to the full reveal, specifically with an image of a mask like the in-game item and stating the color would go from black to white. Certainly possible these are just good educated guesses, given that many were speculating Zoroark variants and the distorted video noted white fur. The other hints this account has posted seem to be consistent with some of the hints in the collage. So, nothing so far that can't be plausibly explained away, but enough to raise some eyebrows and keep an eye on going forward (at least to me).
Ok, so, if we take this to be potentially be legitimate hints towards new mons and variants, what are the claims made so far, and how does this relate to the MIA Sinnoh mons I started this post with? A recap of what has been said about each of the hints in the collage so far, without images, in case anyone doesn't want to read through the first tweet linked (or if it gets deleted):
Ok, so is there any actual reason to suspect these hints are legit and not just someone trying to claim to be the riddler? Well, maybe. The collage was posted before the full reveal of Zorua/Zoroark, e.g. here in this tweet by eclipse, who claimed that the second image was hinting towards the reveal. I am not familiar with one piece, but supposedly the characters shown in the image are someone named 'Zorro' and a character with ghostly powers. So, potentially actually hinting at a ghost type Zorua/Zoroark. The Ball Guy Leaks account also posted independent hints pointing to Zoroark prior to the full reveal, specifically with an image of a mask like the in-game item and stating the color would go from black to white. Certainly possible these are just good educated guesses, given that many were speculating Zoroark variants and the distorted video noted white fur. The other hints this account has posted seem to be consistent with some of the hints in the collage. So, nothing so far that can't be plausibly explained away, but enough to raise some eyebrows and keep an eye on going forward (at least to me).
Ok, so, if we take this to be potentially be legitimate hints towards new mons and variants, what are the claims made so far, and how does this relate to the MIA Sinnoh mons I started this post with? A recap of what has been said about each of the hints in the collage so far, without images, in case anyone doesn't want to read through the first tweet linked (or if it gets deleted):
A picture of a character from Yokai watch. It has been stated that this hints towards the typing and signature move of a variant of one of the starters (it does not hint at any visual features of the mon). Essentially, the name of the character refers to an idiom in Japanese about 100 spirits marching, and the above twitter accounts have claimed this to be refering to Typhlosion gaining the ghost type. See, e.g., this explanation.
As discussed, a character named 'Zorro' and a character with ghostly powers hinting towards Zorua and Zoroark.
Named 'Love clouds' by eclipse, supposedly a hint towards a post-game mon (Riddler Khu). Nothing else has really been hinted about this Pokemon so far, though in their podcast Eclipse throws out some obvious possibilities like Luvdisc, Altaria, or even Comfey (Alomomola?).
Based on another Riddler hint involving some merch images, pretty much everyone claims this to be hinting towards hisuian voltorb and electrode.
Named "swimsuit" by eclipse, supposedly this is a hint towards Arezu's noble mon. The Japanese text apparently says 'I'll smack you'. Because the official info is that Arezu's mon is a 'certain lady pokemon', this seems to limit the most likely options to the female only mons. Many have been speculating Tsareena, but a lot are also hopeful about Jynx (but no real evidence in that direction). Based on Arezu's bracelet many are suspecting grass type; if 'swimsuit' is relevant, perhaps the mon gains water type?
One of the start hint images, said to be hinting at Decidueye's type (not visual characteristics). Apparently the name of the girl character (Kotori?) is a common nickname for Rowlet in Chinese and/or Japanese communities, and the buff muscles hint towards fighting. Grass/fighting has been claimed by all three of the twitter accounts referenced in this post.
It's been said that some kanji related to this Cactuar (from Final Fantasy) is the relevant hint. While many honed in on the Japanese name "sabotender" and speculating this refers to a hisuian Sudowoodo (who I think we haven't seen? Only Bonsly?), others have pointed out that the cactuar's attack is 'harisen" (or something like that), which is also/close to the Japanese name for Qwilfish.
Supposedly hinting at a new variant with a steel type. Not clear if the fact the ring is a snail is relevant, but it has many speculating the slugma lines, Goodra, or some are even stretching their imaginations/hopes and trying to seen dunsparce in this.
Another starting typing hint. Moonlight = gekkou, moth = ga, therefore gekkouga = greninja = water/dark. Hinting at samurott.
A picture of Project Habakkuk, which Avalugg has been speculated to be based on. Khu claims the pokemon hinted at is based on this visually, so naturally everyone has just converged on Avalugg, though not clear whether this hints at anything about typing - maybe the hint is just that avalugg receives a variant or evolution.
Finally, this is the image that relates to the MIA Sinnoh mons. The ball guy leaks account has claimed that the silhouetted climbing mon that was leaked before the Legends Arceus reveal is a new sneasel evolution. This image is from a manga called Esper Mami, and in particular a chapter called kamaitachi, which Sneasel is based on (see this tweet). Visually, the long protrusion from the head of the silhouette looks consistent with sneasel's head feather. So, potentially a missing sneasel is because it has a hisuian variant, or at least an alternate evolution that serves as our climbing mon. Presumably there is a fair chance that the climbing mon will be revealed before the release, so this has the greatest potential for damaging or reinforcing the credibility of this collage.
The most contentious of the images. Centro claimed there is a rideable Urasaring evolution, while the other twitter accounts have pushed back saying this is not rideable and maybe not an ursaring evolution, but there is an evolution of an old bear Pokemon. Ursaring has been shown off as an alpha pokemon, and all other alpha pokemon shown have been fully evolved, so it seems unlikely that Ursaring itself evolves. So, if true it's likely a different bear Pokemon or a split evolution.
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Y'know, this mention of some of the excluded mons reminds me of a thought I had. Do you think some of the Hisuian forms and evos are meant as stand-ins for Sinnoh Pokemon omitted for flavor?
-Hisuian Growlithe is a two-stage physical Rock type themed after attacking with its head, which seems in line with Cranidos
-Meanwhile, Wyrdeer seems like it could be meant as a Porygon-Z stand-in. It's an evolution of a Gen 2 Normal type with lots of Psychic moves that, if this sole battle screenshot is an indication, could have very high Special Attack.
If my little theory is correct, I wonder if Shieldon and Rotom parallels can be expected?
-Hisuian Growlithe is a two-stage physical Rock type themed after attacking with its head, which seems in line with Cranidos
-Meanwhile, Wyrdeer seems like it could be meant as a Porygon-Z stand-in. It's an evolution of a Gen 2 Normal type with lots of Psychic moves that, if this sole battle screenshot is an indication, could have very high Special Attack.
If my little theory is correct, I wonder if Shieldon and Rotom parallels can be expected?
If anything, to me that sounds more like a move basculegion would get? I don't want to doubt the leakers but it sounds odd to me to introduce a ghost-type that is a mesh of a bunch of souls gathering into one body and then have the "100 souls marching" move be related to another mon introduced in the same game
Conversely though, the fact it states they are marching does sounds like it'd connect somewhat to Typhlosion's loose war general origins
Conversely though, the fact it states they are marching does sounds like it'd connect somewhat to Typhlosion's loose war general origins
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
Here's a random mildly funny bit of trivia I realized earlier today: Assuming Rampardos and Bastiodon are omitted due to fossil revival tech not existing, Legends Arceus is the first game set in a mainline region to not feature any "truly" original Pokemon of a specific type that existed at the time of the region's creation, in this case Rock. Without the fossils all this game's Sinnoh-native Rock types (Bonsly, Probopass, Rhyperior, Hisuian Growlithe/Arcanine and Kleavor) branch off pre-existing families.