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Pokemon Legends: Z-A Combat/PVP Discussion Thread

What kind of sets should we expect Zygarde to run?

I assume that investing heavily into Special Defense would be the way to go, to help survivability against popular special attacking Fairy and Ice types. I wonder if going fully defensive with max HP/SpDef would be good, since Nihil Light is already strong enough without offensive investment, and surviving until you get the Mega activated seems to be the priority.
 
I can see Mega Zygarde being awkward to execute, mostly because of having to start in 50% form (or 10% if you got that dog in you). Base form absolutely needs Light Screen support in order to survive the many Ice Beams running around, especially Glaceon's. You then need full mega energy AND be in Complete form to mega evolve, so 50% Zygarde has to survive not only Ice Beam, but Dragon Rush, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Moonblast, Outrage, etc. The stat swap Mega Zygarde gives will also be tricky to build around because 50% Zygarde starts with 100 Attack and 81 SpA, with no way to boost said SpA, so all of your special moves pre-mega will hit like wet tissue paper. No Coil in this game is also a damn shame, so this hurts non-Mega sets that would want to utilize the stronger Attack stat, or to live physical hits better.

The biggest issue is not being able to run Xerneas when using Zygarde, and I see the former still being the best restricted in S3.

My initial idea for a Mega Zygarde build is something like this:

zygarde.gif
zygarde-complete.gif

Zygarde @ Zygardite
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD (you could invest more into SpA if it turns out 50% can survive Ice Beams and Xerneas's boosted Moonblast just fine w/ Light Screen)
Modest / Calm Nature
- Core Enforcer -> Nihil Light
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave / Focus Blast
- Protect

Max HP for a mon that eventually gains 216 base HP sounds odd, but you start in 50% form, which has base 108 HP. Not low by any means, but Garchomp's boosted Dragon Rush will still eat you alive if you don't invest in that 108 HP. While pre-mega, you hide behind Screens support to survive and become Complete, using Protect to block Ice-type moves. If Thousand Arrows actually grounded Flying-types in this game, I'd slot it in as a utility move to combo with Earth Power, but in ZA, it just hits them and that's it.

A physical non-Mega set would probably like Weakness Policy behind screens:

Zygarde @ Weakness Policy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage / Breaking Swipe
- Iron Head / Brick Break / Thousand Waves
- Protect

Zygarde needs dual STAB moves to deal with the Dragons and many Ground-weak Pokemon running around. Protect is also nice for Weakness Policy since the item can proc against a plus move while Protecting. The last move will depend on what you need. Iron Head, while it sucks, gives you coverage for Fairies and Ice-types. Brick Break for opposing screens while still hitting Ice-types. Thousand Waves could even be cool to trap foes in.

Unless someone else convinces me, I don't see a reason to use :zygarde-10%: form as the base.

Overall, Zygarde sounds cool on paper, but a lot is going against it, and I just don't see it replacing the non-restricted Garchomp, which has higher Attack, Swords Dance, and better item flexibility.
 
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10% has movement speed comparable to Gengar/Clef/Zard etc., whereas 50% is slow as hell and is in the class above Avalugg/Klefki/Floette. That and the ability to get to complete faster are valid reasons to run it, squish or not - this is where Sash Thousand Waves is cool.
 
Phenomenal post archiving the Season 2 meta, Blitz. I could not ask for a better capstone to jot down the stories of season 2 before it comes to pass. Great spat of preservation.

"Fake Steel-Type" is the perfect encapsulation of Excadrill. It really does feel like a frail little dude I have to baby whenever it’s out, instead of switching into scary threats like Garchomp and being just dandy like Skarmory. It’s a good lesson that resistances and typing can look really tantalizing on paper until you put the Pokemon to the test; I know it’s a bias I personally need to challenge more often.

Worthwhile mentioning that 10%, on top of the movement speed, has like 54 less hp you’re banking away for the complete mode. You could potentially try and finagle an endure set that goes hunting for the Glaceon or Garchomp, eats the hit worse to drop below 50% hp a little easier, and then get complete form where you get a giant health pack of a sudden extra 162 HP, guaranteeing you’re at least a little over half health for the mega. As for how practical that is? A little doubtful, but then maybe I can teach about Zygarde 10%’s funny gem.
 
TheMantyke said:
then maybe I can teach about Zygarde 10%’s funny gem.
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This was the convincing I needed to use 10%. Staring at that one, very special hexagon will give me the strength necessary to win S3 games.

In all seriousness, I forgot about Endure. I can see that helping 10% Zygarde get to Mega Zygarde much easier, and Sash Waves does admittedly sound cool.
 
1763652168017.gif

Zygarde-50 @ Assault Vest
Level: 50
Careful Nature
EVs: 124 HP / 188 Atk / 196 SpD
- Thousand Waves
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

This Zygarde is dedicated to being disruptive, utilizing Thousand Waves to trap everything on the field and setting them all to be picked off by your other Pokemon. Its immense bulk lets it stick around on the field for a while and charge up the Mega Meter for your Mega carries. You'll ideally want to use this in the lead and it'll survive just about anything thrown your way - even a Life Orb Glaceon Ice Beam or a +1 Garchomp Dragon Rush, both while still in 50% Forme. Rest of the investment is thrown into Attack so it can claim to have SOME kind of offensive pressure. Zygarde-50's movement speed is as slow as sin, so Extreme Speed can be useful as a positioning tool to make up for that, and can help it kill steal things.
 
if anyone can post a team with Zygarde to use in season 3 to start with, which i can blatantly copy and use, it would be much appreciated. No Eeveelutions, please.
 
KCN said:
if anyone can post a team with Zygarde to use in season 3 to start with, which i can blatantly copy and use, it would be much appreciated. No Eeveelutions, please.
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I don't know why you don't want a Glaceon, which is gearing to be a staple mon with all the Zygarde planning to run around in S3, but here's a team I made that is similar to one I saw in the Smogon Legends ZA discord, except replace Glaceon with Clawitzer:

:zygarde: :zygarde-complete:
Zygarde @ Assault Vest
EVs: 124 HP / 188 Atk / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thousand Waves
- Stone Edge
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

:metagross: :metagross-mega:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

:clawitzer:
Clawitzer @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

The Zygarde is Jibaku's AV set that can survive a Life Orb Glaceon's Ice Beam (not plus) while in 50% form. The aim is to use Zygarde to gain as much mega energy as possible for your Metagross, using Thousand Waves to trap foes in. Thousand Arrows is kinda not worth it - it's slow, and it's only neutral vs Skarmory, Talonflame, and Charizard - so we have Outrage for Garchomp and opposing Zygarde, Stone Edge for Charizard, Talonflame, Gyarados, and other Flying-types, and Extreme Speed to close the gap against enemies, since 50% form is as slow as molasses. The other two mons are basically standard.

Every team's gonna want a way to chunk Zygarde, especially considering how scary Thousand Waves is going to be. Mega Zygarde's Nihil Light always being a plus move is also pretty damn scary, despite the hefty cost to get Mega Zygarde on the field.
 
KCN said:
appreciate the reply. consensus on the discord seems to be that Metagross is bad, and the mega even worse. you dont agree with this?
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I agree it's a bit overrated, but it's still one of the better Xerneas answers, and I can't see Xerneas's viability dropping whatsoever (it only gets better with Zygarde being a Dragon-type). If you want, you could replace Metagross with another mon that does well into Xern (Mega Venusaur, Mega Scolipede, Mega Scizor, etc).
 
I want to point out that Metagross being “bad“ is a relative term, depending on where you are in terms of skill level and climbing the ranks. Against top competition, Metagross really becomes less and less viable, because it’s kind of a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. Its overall kit and coverage gives it the ability to play on almost any team and against almost any opponent. But unfortunately, it doesn’t really have an advantage against anything except Xerneas. Which, don’t get me wrong, having an advantage against the central feature of the S2 meta, isn’t such a bad thing.

But when you start getting into the upper ranks, everyone has an answer to Xerneas, and everyone knows how to beat Metagross. In fact, they’ll start targeting you specifically because they know they can beat your Metagross. So if you wanna rank up easily in the lower ladder, and if you want a Pokémon that really only requires you to understand the type chart, and it gives you a fighting chance against anybody, and against lower players — then use Metagross and you’ll probably win. But as you get to the high ranks, most will agree it’s not a great Pokémon to have on your team, in comparison with other much more useful options for top level play.

In S3, I guess we’ll see if Zygarde fundamentally shifts things as much as we think it will, and perhaps Metagross will be a good option for even high-level play.
 
DougJustDoug said:
I want to point out that Metagross being “bad“ is a relative term, depending on where you are in terms of skill level and climbing the ranks. Against top competition, Metagross really becomes less and less viable, because it’s kind of a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. Its overall kit and coverage gives it the ability to play on almost any team and against almost any opponent. But unfortunately, it doesn’t really have an advantage against anything except Xerneas. Which, don’t get me wrong, having an advantage against the central feature of the S2 meta, isn’t such a bad thing.

But when you start getting into the upper ranks, everyone has an answer to Xerneas, and everyone knows how to beat Metagross. In fact, they’ll start targeting you specifically because they know they can beat your Metagross. So if you wanna rank up easily in the lower ladder, and if you want a Pokémon that really only requires you to understand the type chart, and it gives you a fighting chance against anybody, and against lower players — then use Metagross and you’ll probably win. But as you get to the high ranks, most will agree it’s not a great Pokémon to have on your team, in comparison with other much more useful options for top level play.

In S3, I guess we’ll see if Zygarde fundamentally shifts things as much as we think it will, and perhaps Metagross will be a good option for even high-level play.
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I feel like Zygarde would make things worse for Metagross rather than better. Zygarde's a Ground type and anyone running Zygarde can't run Xerneas.
 
AztecCroc said:
I feel like Zygarde would make things worse for Metagross rather than better. Zygarde's a Ground type and anyone running Zygarde can't run Xerneas.
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Typing isn't everything in this case. Zygarde may be a Ground-type, but it only has 100 Attack and 81 / 91 SpA and no way to boost its offenses, and if you're not investing much into them, even super effective STAB Ground moves won't do that much to max HP Metagross:

Uninvested:
0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 64-77 (34.2 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 58-68 (31 - 36.3%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 71-85 (37.9 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 79-93 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 83-100 (44.3 - 53.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 75-88 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 92-110 (49.1 - 58.8%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 102-120 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Max Attack / Special Attack:

252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 88-105 (47 - 56.1%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 81-96 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 93-113 (49.7 - 60.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 102-121 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 114-136 (60.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 105-124 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 120-146 (64.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 132-157 (70.5 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Uninvested:
0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 58-68 (31 - 36.3%) -- 56.5% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 50-60 (26.7 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 60-72 (32 - 38.5%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 67-79 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


0 Atk Zygarde Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 75-88 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 65-78 (34.7 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 78-93 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 87-102 (46.5 - 54.5%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO


Max Attack / Special Attack:

252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 79-93 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 71-84 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 81-96 (43.3 - 51.3%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 85-102 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO


252+ Atk Zygarde Earthquake+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 102-120 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Waves+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross-Mega: 92-109 (49.1 - 58.2%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 105-124 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Zygarde-Complete Earth Power+ vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Metagross-Mega: 110-132 (58.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Meanwhile, Mega Metagross's Heavy Slam into Ice Punch is a kill vs max HP 50% Zygarde.

252+ Atk Metagross-Mega Heavy Slam+ (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 57-68 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Metagross-Mega Ice Punch+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 159-188 (73.9 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Granted, all Metagross will have to fear Mega Zygarde one-shotting with Earth Power, but the pre-mega state, at least in a 1v1 sense, isn't nearly as bad for Metagross compared to facing SD Garchomp, especially if Metagross is paired with screens.

Tbf, I can sit around and generate calcs all day presenting these hypotheticals, but we'll never really know for sure until S3 matches start to see how Metagross fares in this new Zygarde meta. However, the way I see it, I don't think it's as cooked as other Ground-weak mons will likely be (Chandelure, Delphox, etc), but time will tell. It's all going to depend on how consistent Zygarde as a whole is compared to Xerneas, which matches up very well into non-Mega Zygarde, and it's still Xerneas. It might have competition, but you'll still see a lot of it after the new-toy syndrome wears off.
 
Would Gyarados with Expert Belt and Ice Fang be a reasonable counter to Zygarde? I assume not, especially with Thunderbolts coming from Xerneas and Ampharos. Gyarados is my favorite Pokémon and I finally got a shiny one, so I want to use it.
 
I'm working on a quick team for online now that I've finally finished the story. Locked in on using Chandelure and Skarmory, but I'm stuck on the third. Ampharos? Altaria? Synergy is important, and I really want to avoid using Garchomp, Metagross, Xernias. Thoughts?
 
realsoupersand said:
Would Gyarados with Expert Belt and Ice Fang be a reasonable counter to Zygarde? I assume not, especially with Thunderbolts coming from Xerneas and Ampharos. Gyarados is my favorite Pokémon and I finally got a shiny one, so I want to use it.
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Gyarados is still pretty common despite Xerneas tbolt. Also if people start using Zygarde then they can't run Xerneas too. Gyarados is totally fine but an ice fang is not OHKOing Zygarde even if it doesn't have yache berry regardless of expert belt or not.
252+ Atk Expert Belt Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 114-137 (53 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Gyarados Ice Fang+ vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 148-178 (68.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'd say Wacan is still the best option on Gyarados for random tbolts and tpunches.

andreds said:
I'm working on a quick team for online now that I've finally finished the story. Locked in on using Chandelure and Skarmory, but I'm stuck on the third. Ampharos? Altaria? Synergy is important, and I really want to avoid using Garchomp, Metagross, Xernias. Thoughts?
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Assuming Skarm is the mega and Chandelure is sash or life orb, you probably want something to hit the Garchomps. Nevermeltice Glaceon, Vaporeon or AV Clawitzer possibly. Alternatively something like Rocky Helmet Hippo with curse keeps Garchomp at bay while also being immune to charge tbolt shenanigans from ampharos.
 
realsoupersand said:
Would Gyarados with Expert Belt and Ice Fang be a reasonable counter to Zygarde? I assume not, especially with Thunderbolts coming from Xerneas and Ampharos. Gyarados is my favorite Pokémon and I finally got a shiny one, so I want to use it.
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generally you can use whatever you like, within reason, you just gotta be hyper aware of threats when your favorite is out. ive seen Simipours, Watchogs, Alolan Raichu, got utterly outplayed by Protect Tyrantrum once.

also this:

 
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andreds said:
I'm working on a quick team for online now that I've finally finished the story. Locked in on using Chandelure and Skarmory, but I'm stuck on the third. Ampharos? Altaria? Synergy is important, and I really want to avoid using Garchomp, Metagross, Xernias. Thoughts?
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I’m gonna vouch for Ampharos within your suggestions if you want to be a cool fella and not rock a restricted. I have been trying out completely awful Pokemon subbing out my Xerneas on my earlier team with Ampharos and Skarmory and those two can carry entire games by themselves. Having to switch in Skarmory early to answer Garchomps is a little annoying sometimes, but can be avoided kiting the chomp over to juicier targets while your Ampharos charges Thunderbolt snipe. Chandelure has lots of leeway after to answer the piles of Steels around.

Skarmory + Ampharos legitimately feels like I’m rocking an actual competitive Pokemon core like Celebi + Heatran or Landorus-T + Rotom-W. Extremely powerful duo of Pokemon I encourage people to try for a taste of what the game’s like:
 
TheMantyke said:
I’m gonna vouch for Ampharos within your suggestions if you want to be a cool fella and not rock a restricted. I have been trying out completely awful Pokemon subbing out my Xerneas on my earlier team with Ampharos and Skarmory and those two can carry entire games by themselves. Having to switch in Skarmory early to answer Garchomps is a little annoying sometimes, but can be avoided kiting the chomp over to juicier targets while your Ampharos charges Thunderbolt snipe. Chandelure has lots of leeway after to answer the piles of Steels around.

Skarmory + Ampharos legitimately feels like I’m rocking an actual competitive Pokemon core like Celebi + Heatran or Landorus-T + Rotom-W. Extremely powerful duo of Pokemon I encourage people to try for a taste of what the game’s like:
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What is your general playbook when running Ampharos and Skarmory? I have built both of them and have tried running a variety of team combinations with them, and my results have been much worse than when I run other teams like Chomp + Xern + Steel, etc. And I think it’s because I’m playing Ampharos incorrectly and not using it right. Would love some tips on how to optimize my play with those two. Because I really enjoy running Mega Skarmory and have had lots of success with it when I can get the momentum going. But when I use Ampharos I seem to get behind the eight-ball every time and can’t seem to figure out the right formula for success.

In general, my overall results are still pretty inconsistent, even though I’m Rank A and have played quite a bit with several different teams and pokemon. Sometimes I win the match handily and feel like I’ve “figured it out”. But then I’ll come back the next battle with the same team, same strategy, and similar opponents and I’ll come in last. So, I’m looking to improve my play with mons like Ampharos which I’m virtually certain that I’m not using correctly, and perhaps that will improve my play overall in this format.

Do you lead with Amphy and immediately set both screens before switching to a heavy hitter? Do you play it low-key and just look for snipes unless forced into switching and/or playing more aggressively? Just looking for playing tips that might help me figure out why using a screen specialist like Ampharos is not producing good results for me so far.
 
DougJustDoug said:
Do you lead with Amphy and immediately set both screens before switching to a heavy hitter? Do you play it low-key and just look for snipes unless forced into switching and/or playing more aggressively? Just looking for playing tips that might help me figure out why using a screen specialist like Ampharos is not producing good results for me so far.
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Ampharos is my usual lead, yup, though switching out quickly like a traditional RPG battles dual screener isn't my priority. I usually sink into the second mode you listed focused on snipes.

My typical gameplay loop with Ampharos + Skarmory is to stammer towards the nearest non-Ground-type at the battle start and set up the most relevant screen, then another or charge, than the last. From there I mostly stray away from direct engagement until something looks like it's distracted and is about to get hit by a move sending them orbiting around half HP, which is when I'll pop the Thunderbolt and hopefully eat up that KO. Occasional Screen refreshes help build up your meter and hopefully get you close enough to complete by the time you need to switch out.

If the Ground-types are getting too feisty, it's usually a switch into Skarmory or my third. Skarmory without a mega feels bad, but basically shutting down every Ground-type and making them buzz off for greener pastures is so helpful. Swords Dance + Fly + scrounging around for mega energy can help get you to the Mega in time to start ripping through things with Brave Bird if it's a little too soon. Dying soon is fine too if the mega gets a little action; Ampharos clicking all four of its moves will help build up your mega meter pretty fast, and let you hustle around for items and mega energy with a very unappealing target to do it all again.

This whole building meter for Skarmory thing is helped a lot, if not fully allieviated, if you have a competnant third who doesn't absolutely need meter like Xerneas, but I'm just using gimmicky crap lately. I've still been really impressed by how what I expected to be non-games turned into wins just from these two doing their thing.

I can absolutely see where Ampharos can feel bad. If everyone's got their Garchomps out, boy howdy it is not fun. You're kind of like a vulture preying upon the unsuspecting and distracting, and sometimes these jerk opponents just want to have a healthy pulse. Or hey, it could just be one of those Pokemon things where a particular playstyle doesn't jive.
 
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