Pokemon Logic

[starjake]

Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I figured I'd start here and people will tell me where to move to if need be.

You know those "Pokemon Logic" memes that float around social media? The ones that point out how Scyther can't cut down a bush until it knows Cut, or how you can't Fly on Yanmega (even though it's Dex entry says you can) but you can on Pidgey? Those really eat at me, because I hate illogical things. Over time, I've wondered what it would look like if a Pokemon game were a little more logical, and/or more adhesive to its own story. Some examples include:

- Why are Legendary pokemon generally so flavorless? If Dialga is supposedly the Lord of Time, shouldn't it have moves and an ability that reflect that? What would those moves and ability be?

- Why is there so little information in-game about how the game works? Wouldn't it make sense for the Weather Institute in Hoenn to give you information on how weather affects battles? If a professor specializes in evolution, shouldn't there be research notes in their lab that tell you which pokemon evolve via some of the more unusual methods?

- Why are Gyms so easy (Whitney's Miltank notwithstanding), and so bland? Why not have Leader team levels scale with your team levels, and why not have the Gym offer some sort of bonus for the type it represents? Honestly, the difficulty question could also be asked about your rival, the Elite Four, or any other "boss-like" battle in the game.

- Why doesn't weather interact with terrain? Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are - from a story perspective - world-destroying abilities, wouldn't it make sense that they could destroy terrains in battle? Wouldn't excessive Sun cause Grassy Terrain to wither?

- We can't talk about pokemon logic without talking about field moves. While I understand the problem that Game Freak was trying to solve by introducing the Ride Pager system, I think they went about solving it the wrong way. If a trainer encounters an obstacle out in the field, of course they would use their team to overcome that obstacle. Why wouldn't any Fire-type pokemon or pokemon with Illuminate be able to light up dark caves, or any Water-type pokemon of a certain size and level be able to carry its Trainer across water?

Again, im not sure if this is the right place to discuss this, or even if this is something anyone wants to duscuss. I'm also not sure what the "goal" of such a discussion would be; if it's just a place to have friendly banter, or if it evolves into something more tactile. What I do know is that I've spent (probably too much) time thinking about this, and I'm wondering if anyone else has thoughts on it.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Kangaskhan hatches from an egg with a baby in its pouch.

 

[Ikey]

its a childs game lol

 

[starjake]

Nelson Tangela In researching Kangaskhan, I discovered that when she Mega Evolves, it's actually her child that evolves and not her herself. Since we know that pokemon that can evolve can't Mega Evolve, I wonder if the child is really a different Form rather than a pre-evolution? Granted, that by itself doesn't explain why hatching a Kangaskhan egg gives you two for the price of one, but it might bring us closer to an explanation.

Ikey I apologize for not being clear before: I'm only looking for intelligent conversation. If you don't have anything to contribute that furthers the conversation, please don't waste our time trolling us with a useless comment.

 

[Ikey]

Nelson Tangela In researching Kangaskhan, I discovered that when she Mega Evolves, it's actually her child that evolves and not her herself. Since we know that pokemon that can evolve can't Mega Evolve, I wonder if the child is really a different Form rather than a pre-evolution? Granted, that by itself doesn't explain why hatching a Kangaskhan egg gives you two for the price of one, but it might bring us closer to an explanation.

Ikey I apologize for not being clear before: I'm only looking for intelligent conversation. If you don't have anything to contribute that furthers the conversation, please don't waste our time trolling us with a useless comment.

i was being serious game freak probably are not going to put complete logic into a game in which they believe has a target audience of children

 

[starjake]

Ikey Considering that these forums will devote 1 - 2 months of time creating a pokemon specifically for the purpose of fixing or making viable a given battle strategy, it seems pretty obvious that what Game Freak would or wouldn't do doesn't really factor into the creative thought process around here.

 

[Oriolous]

Ikey Considering that these forums will devote 1 - 2 months of time creating a pokemon specifically for the purpose of fixing or making viable a given battle strategy, it seems pretty obvious that what Game Freak would or wouldn't do doesn't really factor into the creative thought process around here.

...Dude, I'm not gonna lie, that's harsh. Just because we are super nerds who put effort into a hobby we enjoy doesn't mean we can't just sit back and laugh because Game Freak. It's still a valid point in this discussion, and doesn't invalidate his post. You don't need to bite his head off because he gave an answer that you didn't like.

And for the most part: Most of these Pokemon Logic things is due to game mechanics and that's all. Aside from Kangaskhan's baby being the one Mega Evolving (implying the baby is actually a fully evolved Pokemon), all of these logical inconsistencies are due to game mechanics only, as the manga and anime (while different canons) can use the logical answer of any Fire-type lighting a cave or requiring a large enough Pokemon to fly, or using any Water-type to Surf.

 

[Pikachu315111]

This sounds like a fun topic, I'll see about adding some of my questions of Pokemon logic but let's see if I can't maybe throw some logic at some brought up stuff

Why are Legendary pokemon generally so flavorless? If Dialga is supposedly the Lord of Time, shouldn't it have moves and an ability that reflect that? What would those moves and ability be?

Poke Balls seem to have some kind of power limiting effect on Legendaries. It's why the villain boss's plans from Gen III forward usually involves controlling the Legendary in some way instead of catching them (all except Gen V though that's a special case where the Legendary was just a super powerful Pokemon).

Anyway, seems like this restricts them to using much of the same techniques other Pokemon use, either because that's all they can use at the moment, that's all the trainers knows, or the Legendary is purposely not letting a puny human have access to its full power for competitive battling.

Also it's not like they're completely flavorless. Their gimmicks usually manifests as a Signature Move and/or Ability. Dialga has Roar of Time, though I agree it could maybe use something like turn altering or Speed buffing/nerfing moves.

Why are Gyms so easy (Whitney's Miltank notwithstanding), and so bland? Why not have Leader team levels scale with your team levels, and why not have the Gym offer some sort of bonus for the type it represents? Honestly, the difficulty question could also be asked about your rival, the Elite Four, or any other "boss-like" battle in the game.

Well for Gym Leaders they're supposed to be testing your skill. Honestly, if your a good trainer, any mono-type Trainer you're probably going to beat as you'll probably at least have one Pokemon which either can use a Super Effective move against them or resist their Type specialty. Also they give you a TM of their type, not sure what bonus you want from them (like would be neat that, instead of a TM, they're a Move Tutor for their Type but not sure what other service they can serve other than that).

Can't really answer for the Pokemon League, Rivals, and villain team who are suppose to be trying, aside that you're the player and thus a Pokemon Trainer prodigy.

Why doesn't weather interact with terrain? Desolate Land and Primordial Sea are - from a story perspective - world-destroying abilities, wouldn't it make sense that they could destroy terrains in battle? Wouldn't excessive Sun cause Grassy Terrain to wither?

For normal weather I don't see why they would have affect on Terrain. But you do have a point for Desolate Land and Primordial Sea.

We can't talk about pokemon logic without talking about field moves. While I understand the problem that Game Freak was trying to solve by introducing the Ride Pager system, I think they went about solving it the wrong way. If a trainer encounters an obstacle out in the field, of course they would use their team to overcome that obstacle. Why wouldn't any Fire-type pokemon or pokemon with Illuminate be able to light up dark caves, or any Water-type pokemon of a certain size and level be able to carry its Trainer across water?

For this there's different degrees of "why can't my Pokemon do this naturally?", ranging from reasonable to still doesn't make sense. It's also Pokemon-by-Pokemon basis. But for now we'll just look at the HMs/Poke Rides as a whole:

HMs:
Cut: Yeah, no justifying this. No reason your Pokemon shouldn't be able to destroy a bush. At best maybe it's not using the move itself but that your character doesn't realize or know what bush you can cut.
Fly/Surf: This is more understandable, I imagine it takes training for a Pokemon to safely fly or ferry their trainer. A flying Pokemon needs to make sure their trainer stays on their back while a surfing Pokemon needs to keep their trainer's head above water. Their instincts may tell a flying Pokemon to take sharp turns or a surfing Pokemon to dive underwater, it takes discipline to train them to ignore these instincts.
Strength/Rock Smash: This is a toss up. Once again, it could just be the issue of your trainer not recognizing movable/breakable objects. It could also be for your Pokemon's safety, you can seriously hurt yourself if you don't push/lift something right and a Pokemon is striking a hard rock with their bare hands. A Strength Pokemon would need to know proper pushing/lifting procedures while Rock Smashing Pokemon knowing where to strike the rock to break it safely.
Flash: Could be your Pokemon controlling how much light their emitting than them just able to emit light. Sure an Electric- and Fire-type naturally emit light but to expand the light field like flash does without discharging or setting the place on fire takes some experience.
Whirlpool/Waterfall/Dive: I don't think it's hard to understand why these would take experience to use. In addition Dive probably requires the trainer getting a water breathing apparatus which I guess the Gym Leader gives?
Defog: Issue probably isn't clearing fog but rather also kicking up everything else around you. Sure you'll clear the fog but now you got a dirt and dust cloud to deal with and that's not good for your lungs. Also you don't want to accidentally blow away something or someone, you want just a strong enough gust to clear the fog.
Rock Climb: Same issue with Fly and Surf really. You don't want your Pokemon to be so enthusiastic about climbing a side of the cliff you can't hold on and you fall several feet to a hard stop.

Ride Pokemon:
Tauros Charge, Sharpedo Jet, & Machamp Shove: Same issue with Strength/Rock Smash. These Pokemon were trained to smash and push rocks the correct and safe way.
Stoutland Search: Easy enough, these Stoutland are trained to understand different smells.
Charizard Fly, Lapras Paddle, Sharpedo Jet, & Mantine Surf: Same issue with Surf/Fly. These Pokemon are trained to keep you safe on their back. Mantine Surf probably also taught to fetch after you if you fall off.
Mudsdale Gallop: The lamest and unneeded of the Poke Rides, but I digress. This is sort of like Whirlpool if you think about. These Mudsdale are trained to carry people over rough terrain which would otherwise be difficult to travel across and easy to get hurt on. It's just how SM presented the idea wasn't the greatest.

Kangaskhan hatches from an egg with a baby in its pouch.

CrAzY Theory Time: What if the "baby" in Kangaskhan's pouch isn't a baby but rather an unfinished clone of the "mother" Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan are an all female species so developed an intricate way to reproduce. Kangaskhan create an unfinished clone of themselves, a "baby" that has half their DNA but the rest of their DNA is "blank". It's why the baby doesn't look like a Kangaskhan, because it's only half a Kangaskhan. When a Kangaskhan finds a mate, the unfinished clone enters into an egg-like cocoon to bond with the father's DNA thus becoming a full fledged Kangaskhan (and while developing it too will then start creating half clones). Meanwhile the mother Kangaskhan than develops another half clone soon after. Finally, When Kangaskhan Mega Evolves the half clone essentially doubles the mother's DNA becoming, for a short time, a full Kangaskhan (and thus looks like a literal baby Kangaskhan). However this form is unstable, the doubled DNA strand breaks down after the Mega Evolution is done, and the baby returns to being a half clone.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Oh yeah, forgot about this thread. Hm, trying to think I'm not getting any major "Pokemon Logic" but do think this thread deserves a chance. So... off to TV Tropes's Fridge Logic for Pokemon!

For now we'll just start on the hub page before going into the individual games. So these will be for the series as a whole. Also I'm obviously not copying them directly, instead reading and posting the ones I think either have a point or I thought of something from them:

Pokemon Limit: Why can we only carry 6 Pokemon? Now, I get why in battles we can only use 6, it's most likely a limit set up by the Region's government/Pokemon League (though surprisingly each region follows the same number rule) so that Pokemon battles don't go on forever. But outside of battle why is this limit enforced? Why can't I have like 10 Pokemon on me and when I'm challenged to a battle I just pick the six who will participate? Granted, gameplay mechanics need to be accounted, but still I think the technology has advanced we can carry more than 6 and all we'd need to do is just select 6 of them to be considered "active" members.

What Is The Difference: So in the Pokemon World it seems like, nowadays at least, there's only 6 major forms of life: human, Pokemon, flora, fungi, bacteria, and viruses (who knows if archaea or protista are a thing in the Pokemon world or they're bunched together with another group). And yes, it does seem like humans and Pokemon are separate things, humans are unable to be converted into energy as easily as Pokemon and humans can only breed with other humans while Pokemon are able to breed within Egg Groups (and the ability to chain breed means DNA from two Pokemon who are part of different Egg groups can be compatible via through other Pokemon part of at least one Egg Group of each). So... what's the deal? Mainly with humans, why are humans by themselves? There's no other "normal" animals humans share a more immediate ancestry with than the one which connects humans and Pokemon? Are humans from Pokemon, a major mutation split off that put us in an entirely new domain of our own (and yet there's still no other animal that came from that split than the modern human)?

A Different Battle Style: Why can't we request to have different battle style with trainers. Like surely before the battle we could ask to make the battle into a double battle. Because, outside of the Battle Facilities, if you think about it, there are no true Double Battles. YOU may use two Pokemon, but the only time the main game as this happen is when there are two opponents. They're in a tag battle, they don't share Pokemon so if you knock one out the other trainer is now in a single battle while you're using two Pokemon. And, okay, not everyone will want that, but I feel most trainers would be "sure". Also, there aren't any lone trainers who want a Double Battle (except in Orre)?

That's it for now, next time (if I remember) we'll move to the individual games.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Nelson Tangela In researching Kangaskhan, I discovered that when she Mega Evolves, it's actually her child that evolves and not her herself. Since we know that pokemon that can evolve can't Mega Evolve, I wonder if the child is really a different Form rather than a pre-evolution? Granted, that by itself doesn't explain why hatching a Kangaskhan egg gives you two for the price of one, but it might bring us closer to an explanation.

Ikey I apologize for not being clear before: I'm only looking for intelligent conversation. If you don't have anything to contribute that furthers the conversation, please don't waste our time trolling us with a useless comment.

Kangaskhan's baby temporarily grows up to fight alongside its mother. Of course, Pokemon eggs are a huge can of worms, as easily demonstrated by the one Pokemon the Pokedex just loves to keep telling a sob story for, Cubone. A Cubone hatches from an egg already wearing the skull that's supposed to be its dead mother's.

Also, Dialga has a move relating to time: its signature move Roar of Time, an attack that can disrupt time itself. (yet Fairy types are immune) It's just nobody uses it because it's a Dragon type Hyper Beam. Palkia has Spatial Rend, which is said to tear into the target and the fabric of space around them. (again, Fairy types are immune) Several big name legendary and mythical Pokemon do have some flavor to them, though I feel that Arceus hasn't really had a chance to feel special as it was never able to be caught due to the Azure Flute being "too complicated for players to understand" or something. (returning to the one place in the game that depicts a flute, a place the plot requires the player to visit, is "too complicated"?)

 

[DrPumpkinz]

One thing in Pokemon that really irks me is the "rule" that if two trainers make eye contact, they are obligated to battle each other for money. What irritates me is just how blatantly this "rule" is ignored. If an NPC trainer sees you, they can force you to battle them, even if you didn't see them (last I checked, eye contact has to work both ways to be considered eye contact). This is basically just chivilrous mugging. To make things even more inconsistent, the only way for you to force an NPC trainer to battle is by walking up to them and tapping them on the shoulder. For some reason, you are the only trainer without the ability to challenge people from a distance by shooting mug-lasers from your eyes.

 

[adman2]

One thing I've wondered about Pokemon is why people aren't afraid to go outside when they have to deal with 70 pound bugs. Pokemon sometimes attack people, or at least Professor Birch. . .

 

[Gokuzbu]

>save ethers for special occasion
>never use them

 

[Pikachu315111]

One thing in Pokemon that really irks me is the "rule" that if two trainers make eye contact, they are obligated to battle each other for money. What irritates me is just how blatantly this "rule" is ignored. If an NPC trainer sees you, they can force you to battle them, even if you didn't see them (last I checked, eye contact has to work both ways to be considered eye contact). This is basically just chivilrous mugging. To make things even more inconsistent, the only way for you to force an NPC trainer to battle is by walking up to them and tapping them on the shoulder. For some reason, you are the only trainer without the ability to challenge people from a distance by shooting mug-lasers from your eyes.

And on top of that, it's not like there isn't a reason you shouldn't battle the trainers, they're good experience and money. If a player decides to skip trainers it's on them if they're inexperience and low on money. Of course, that would be why they are forced battles, to assure the player is at a certain min level. Seems like its "video game logic" at its finest, they battle you upon seeing you because the game is about battling Pokemon and raising your Pokemon through said battling. Why you can't do it to other trainers is cause any trainer who you would want to battle is already searching for a battle so doesn't matter if they see you first or not.

But you have a point about the mugging. Not only do you lose money, but you also need to run back to the last Pokemon Center you were at to heal your Pokemon, something the NPCs don't do (don't they care about their Pokemon?). But on the money point, you're right they are kind of trying to mug you just as you kind of are mugging them. Though once again, video game logic. You need money to buy supplies and best way to get money is trainer battles (at least during the main game).

So overall there's just some stuff you gotta overlook simply because "it's a video game" and it's trying to steer you in a certain direction.

One thing I've wondered about Pokemon is why people aren't afraid to go outside when they have to deal with 70 pound bugs. Pokemon sometimes attack people, or at least Professor Birch. . .

They just don't go into the tall grass. "But wouldn't that mean people are stuck in their home towns then?". Yes, if you go by video game logic. Just as it's used above to justify mechanics, it can also be used to get around some confusions. There has to be other civilian pathways, a paved road somewhere which leads town to town. We don't take these paths because we're a trainer looking to catch Pokemon and battle trainers, those two things located in more wilderness areas. Probably only time we take a paved path is when there's no other way to get one location to another within the game's world.

When you become a trainer, your path is set out for you: hope you have some durable shoes.

>save ethers for special occasion
>never use them

Don't get why they aren't sold in shops. I think in all my years playing Pokemon I may have used a Ether only once or twice, and probably cause I was just in an area I was using a certain move more than the others and didn't feel like prolonging battles. I might use them more sparingly if I could buy them, but since you can't I too save but never use them. Actually, where do you even get Ethers if you can't buy them in shops? They're bottled like potions, someone must produce them!

Some more from TvTropes:

Surfing & Diving Battle: Another moment of video game logic: battles while surfing and diving. So how does this work for non-aquatic Pokemon, especially those weak to Water? Not to mention how do some moves even work? How can you use weather moves or summoning Abilities underwater? AND ORAS added another conundrum with battles while Soaring!

Your Mind Makes It Real: So, USUM confirms Festival Plaza is a virtual location and your character is just an avatar (though it's not clear whether you got digitized or you're controlling the Avatar through Rotom Dex). Still, this raises certain questions like:

• Affecting Your Pokemon: You can increase your Pokemon's Happiness, Level, and EVs. How? Like at least your Pokemon would have to be fully digitized in order for them to get the experience that raises these stats (and note that one of these things is a kitchen where you eat food, digital food! And even if you just handwave it saying the food is teleported to you to feed to your Pokemon, well that then contradicts them gaining EVs from a Bouncy House as that's then not real).
• Dye Houses: How are you able to dye your clothes?! Like, do you fully digitize yourself and are editing your clothes (which would bring in a LOT more questions)? Well, I guess you could just be teleporting your clothes to where the Dye Shop exists, have them dye it, and then teleport it back to you. Though they never explain it so either can be true!

(BTW, I realized that the Pokemon's Headscratcher's page probably could also provide some odd logic. Posting it here so I remember it for later)

 

[adman2]

>save ethers for special occasion
>never use them

I think the only time I used PP restoring items during my solo Simipour White playthrough was during the Elite Four rematch at the end of the postgame. That's how paranoid I was about hoarding them. :)

 

[Cresselia~~]

Why you can't use PokeRide Pokemon to fight... even when you are riding it.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Why you can't use PokeRide Pokemon to fight... even when you are riding it.

That's an easy answer: they're not your Pokemon. You're renting these Pokemon to provide a specific service, and it's not for battling.

 

[Kammanns]

As for kangaskhan hatching with a kid I think it's pointless to find a reason for it. It was introduced in gen1 where breeding was not there yet. They just made it breedable in gen2. It's just a game mechanic. If it wouldn't be able to breed people would say how illogical it is for it to not breed. People always say how ridiculous it is for a tiny bush to block your way. The bush is just there for you to use cut, a hm obtained later in the game to make it rewarding to visit other areas that were previously inaccessible. It's just a game mechanic. The same can be said for scyther not knowing how to cut. You can't code every real physic in a game, there are always limitations. Or how you can carry a bike in your backpack. How else should it be handled by the game? Do you have to walk back to your bike and remember where you parked it everytime you want to use it? If it was like that people would complain how annoying that would be. It's not illogical. It's just the limitations of the game's mechanics and technology. Also about the eye contact thing. How should that even be possible to code in a game? Immerse yourself into the game. When you walk by a trainer your character moves his eyes and you have eye contact. There are of course not many trainers moving around that you can challenge by "eye contact" so you have to physically walk to them and trigger the dialog for the game to register it. Just think yourself into the game and ignore the limitations.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Also about the eye contact thing. How should that even be possible to code in a game?

It's pretty simple, actually. Here's some pseudo-code that would work for the earlier grid-based games:

if PlayerX = TrainerX or PlayerY = TrainerY
    draw LineOfSight (PlayerX, PlayerY, TrainerX, TrainerY)

if ObstaclesInLineOfSight? = false
    if PlayerDirection = 180 + Trainer
        start battle

Would that make the game easier? Yes. Could they just remove any mention of eye-contact and bypass the inconsistency entirely? Also yes.

 

[Detective Barricade]

As for kangaskhan hatching with a kid I think it's pointless to find a reason for it. It was introduced in gen1 where breeding was not there yet. They just made it breedable in gen2. It's just a game mechanic. If it wouldn't be able to breed people would say how illogical it is for it to not breed. People always say how ridiculous it is for a tiny bush to block your way. The bush is just there for you to use cut, a hm obtained later in the game to make it rewarding to visit other areas that were previously inaccessible. It's just a game mechanic. The same can be said for scyther not knowing how to cut. You can't code every real physic in a game, there are always limitations. Or how you can carry a bike in your backpack. How else should it be handled by the game? Do you have to walk back to your bike and remember where you parked it everytime you want to use it? If it was like that people would complain how annoying that would be. It's not illogical. It's just the limitations of the game's mechanics and technology. Also about the eye contact thing. How should that even be possible to code in a game? Immerse yourself into the game. When you walk by a trainer your character moves his eyes and you have eye contact. There are of course not many trainers moving around that you can challenge by "eye contact" so you have to physically walk to them and trigger the dialog for the game to register it. Just think yourself into the game and ignore the limitations.

It's a collapsible bike.

 

[Magnus0]

Lenora's gym

You have to find memos on the back of the book, but they only appear if you find the correct books in the correct order.

 

[MyNameIsLouise]

Drizzle and Drought make no sense. How can the presence of a frekin' Peliper cause the entire weather to shift into rain? its just a peliper, not some legendary, incredibly rare ancient beast.

Also why does rain's effects take place when you're inside a building (i.e. a gym)? How does harse sunlight increase the effects of Growth if you're inside a building with no windows?

 

[Zowayix]

Same way the plain move Rain Dance works, I guess, which has never been legendary-exclusive.

I can't find the source at the moment but there's a screenshot showing Sunny Day's animation creating an extra sun in the vicinity, which is a whole new level of ridiculousness.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Drizzle and Drought make no sense. How can the presence of a frekin' Peliper cause the entire weather to shift into rain? its just a peliper, not some legendary, incredibly rare ancient beast.

Also why does rain's effects take place when you're inside a building (i.e. a gym)? How does harse sunlight increase the effects of Growth if you're inside a building with no windows?

It's most likely a centralized area the Abilities affect. A Pokemon with Drizzle (or use Rain Dance) condenses the moisture in the air creating nimbus clouds which then rains. For Drought (and Sunny Day) that's a bit harder. Maybe the Pokemon excites the photons in the air causing it to give off heat and light.

This would also explain how it happens in building, since its an unnatural creation.

Now why they were causing the end of the world in the Hoenn games is because they were being amplified by the power of Kyogre and Groudon.

 

[LeftyGreenMario]

The idea that hail and snow are completely different things is a very alien concept to Pokemon. And why isn't there a single electric type that harnesses the power of cumulonimbus clouds (Mega Ampharous? Thundurus?), the sole producer of hail, effortlessly learns hail? Except Lanturn. And how come "Thunder" is an electric type move, because last time I checked, it refers to the rapid expansion of heat in the atmosphere caused by a thunderbolt, but NOT the thunderbolt itself, so it should be able to get blocked by Pokemon with soundproof.