Mons are only guaranteed one STAB, and for some of them having both STABs is counterproductive (X-Scissor on Mega Pinsir, for example, does nothing for it even in Randbats vis-a-vis SD/Quick Attack/Earthquake/CC). Keldeo, however, generally thrives having both of its STABs.
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Format Discussion Pokemon Sun/Moon Random Battle sets
- Thread starter duck
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while im a pretty big fan of counter and stuff no way to touch the special mons it's supposed to wall and having protect for no reason at all is pretty silly
toxic/seismic toss is where it's at
Not to rag on P-Z but this seems suboptimal
Porygon-Z is so broken. :(
Happy Hour boosts do in fact bypass Contrary. All Z move boosts do with the single exception of Extreme Evoboost.
Don't personally see an issue.
Murad
Banned deucer.
Hi, I’d like to make a recommendation on Delibird’s Moveset.
As bad as Delibird already is, it misses Rapid Spin way too often; at least for me. When it has Hustle, I’d prefer to use only Ice Punch, Ice Shard, and Aerial Ace (the first two which already miss a lot). But Rapid Spin is a very critical move when my team is vulnerable to some form of hazard(s). Also delibird is very weak, as when an opponent tries to block rapid spin with a ghost type, it will be forced to switch out because it cannot do much to take down it’s opponent. That in conjunction to the fact that it’s defenses are feather-thin means that it can’t be relied on for much.
Missing Rapid Spin would become a big bummer, making Delibird worse than it already is. So the main idea is to replace Rapid Spin with Defog. By giving delibird defog instead, it will guarantee hazard removal from your side. Sure, defog can be taunted, but overall, it will serve Delibird a better chance to be slightly more viable to eliminate the hazards than relying on an insignificant hustle-boosted Rapid Spin to remove them. Defog was introduced to Delibird fairly recently (when USUM came out), and I believe it is the time and chance to give that move to Delibird.
Thanks in behalf...
As bad as Delibird already is, it misses Rapid Spin way too often; at least for me. When it has Hustle, I’d prefer to use only Ice Punch, Ice Shard, and Aerial Ace (the first two which already miss a lot). But Rapid Spin is a very critical move when my team is vulnerable to some form of hazard(s). Also delibird is very weak, as when an opponent tries to block rapid spin with a ghost type, it will be forced to switch out because it cannot do much to take down it’s opponent. That in conjunction to the fact that it’s defenses are feather-thin means that it can’t be relied on for much.
Missing Rapid Spin would become a big bummer, making Delibird worse than it already is. So the main idea is to replace Rapid Spin with Defog. By giving delibird defog instead, it will guarantee hazard removal from your side. Sure, defog can be taunted, but overall, it will serve Delibird a better chance to be slightly more viable to eliminate the hazards than relying on an insignificant hustle-boosted Rapid Spin to remove them. Defog was introduced to Delibird fairly recently (when USUM came out), and I believe it is the time and chance to give that move to Delibird.
Thanks in behalf...
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Done.
I found a Contrary Malamar with Z Happy Hour. Remind me why this is a thing?
it's literally three posts higher on this page
I wouldn't even say it's the worst RandBat Pokémon. At least, thanks to its level 100, it can do 40-50% to most Pokémon that do not resist psychic type moves.
And as said by Tiksi, it's a fully evolved Pokémon, so it would be weird not having it in that format. I wouldn't be against giving it perfect EVs, but meh.
I really wish there was a level 85 tier (well, there's Meme-Stunfisk in that tier!) for some objectively bad Pokémon, and maybe even a level 87 tier for objectively awful Pokémon. Luvdisc, Delibird, Ledian, Castform, Delcatty come to mind. Pokémon that you're most of the time legit mad of getting, in sort, because they can't do anything except for some utilities for which there are definitely better Pokémon for... (Toxic + Protect Luvdisc, Defog/Spikes Delibird with the occasional D-Bond, T-Wave for Delcatty, Screens for Ledian, and... nothing for Castform). Meme-Stunfisk would still be better than these Pokémon if it kept level 83, thanks to its bulk and access to RestTalk, Toxic and Stealth Rock.
Then why does Eviolite Gligar exist? Porygon2? I'm assuming that those two are possible mons you can get in randbats because they're viable. Unown definitely isn't viable. Its damage is laughably weak for a Pokemon that can only use one move, and it's a significant liability to any team that it's in.
The general rule is all fully evolved Pokémon plus any NFEs that are considered viable. Unown falls into the first category. FWIW I’ve had Unown clean for me and ultimately win a game. That’s just part of the luck of the draw of randbats, there’s a handful of fully evolved mons that suck but that’s part of the game. If we were gonna start eliminating all of those it would evolve into a completely different meta.
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I've also wondered if it might be worthwhile to have a (perhaps small) chance of giving it other Hidden Power types. HP Bug would let it hit its Dark-type switch-ins, as well as other Psychics that would generally take low damage from it (and does not-bad damage when hitting SE, with a good chance to 2HKO even MMY and MLatias after rocks), while HP Fighting would be more reliable against Dark- and Steel-types (doing a solid 60-75% against most Dark attackers and with a good chance to OHKO the frailer ones after rocks).
Obviously, it's overall not helping to lose the free STAB boost from HP Psychic, and many of the targets it wants to nab 2KOs from can outspeed and wallop it. Psychics like MLatias and MMY, which take ~40-50% from HP Bug, can also heal off their damage faster than they take it. Though, absent CM, you can at least lock them into a brief stall war until Unown crits, as they can't OHKO back.
Either way, having some variety in Unown's set would at least help by punishing the current zero-risk counterplay of just switching in a Dark type to get a free turn. And while I agree that it's not the absolute worst thing in Randbats right now (it's nabbed a few KOs for me, at least), it's not like Unown is a particularly instrumental team member as it is, so the surprise factor may be worth it.
Gligar, Porygon2 (and Scyther while we're at it) are definitely better as NFEs with Eviolite, and it's not even close. The only thing Togetic could really do was roost-toxic, IIRC, and Gligar outclasses it thanks to higher speed and Immunity. Wouldn't necessarily be against a return of Eviolite Togetic, though.
Unown isn't "viable", and so are several other Pokémon in the meta. That's the way it is. Sometimes, it will cost you games, sometimes, it won't and be able to clean, as stated above. This applies to several other Pokémon, because the meta doesn't revolve around common strategies. There are times you'll wish you had a {insert awful Pokémon} over a {insert strong Pokémon} simply due to matchup.
And I agree with Kalalokki (clearly biased with that signature!) about the "variety". HP Bug would only be great if your opponent has a dark type, really, because against other Pokémon, it doesn't provide much over HP Psychic (3HKO on most Pokémon that are weak to bug and do not resist psychic for both HP bug and HP psychic). It would be even worse than it is in the event your opponent has no dark types.
A few years ago the randbats team decided that NFE mons in this mode should have something that allows it to sufficiently distinguish itself from its fully-evolved counterpart (beyond simply Eviolite defense boosts, except for Chansey because it's OU), and they should be good enough to be tiered at the lowest official tier (PU) by usage. (This is why Pikachu was available for a short time in gen 6 until it dropped out of PU.) Gligar has Immunity vs Gliscor's Poison Heal. Porygon2 has higher base defenses than Porygon-Z. Doublade has a consistently high Defense vs Aegislash's Stance Change giving it varying defenses. Scyther has Flying-type vs Scizor's Steel-type. Finally, Chansey is OU so it gets a free pass despite "only" having an Eviolite boost to distinguish it. (Magneton isn't in because we decided that the 10 base speed increase wasn't enough of a difference, IIRC.)
I guess Haunter could TECHNICALLY fit this criteria but we decided on this list because it's still in PU somehow and Gengar lost Levitate, but idk if Haunter has enough of a niche as a Ghost/Poison Levitater. I'll leave it up to The Immortal to decide on that one.
I guess Haunter could TECHNICALLY fit this criteria but we decided on this list because it's still in PU somehow and Gengar lost Levitate, but idk if Haunter has enough of a niche as a Ghost/Poison Levitater. I'll leave it up to The Immortal to decide on that one.
Submitting bugs:
Normalium Z Malamar with Knock Off, Rest, Sleep Talk, Happy Hour
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7unratedrandombattle-834756459 [it's in the first few turns, wasn't lucky enough to get the Malamar on my team]
Choice Scarf Porygon-Z with Trick, Tri-Attack, Ice Beam, and Conversion
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-784391284 [didn't screenshot when the room was still up. I took the L this game just to show how bad the set was tho.]
Normalium Z Malamar with Knock Off, Rest, Sleep Talk, Happy Hour
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7unratedrandombattle-834756459 [it's in the first few turns, wasn't lucky enough to get the Malamar on my team]
Choice Scarf Porygon-Z with Trick, Tri-Attack, Ice Beam, and Conversion
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-784391284 [didn't screenshot when the room was still up. I took the L this game just to show how bad the set was tho.]
This is the third time this has been brought up and for the last time, Z Happy Hour bypasses contrary
For once I think it was a complaint about single time setup through a z move+resttalk which I personally think is fairly valid. Stuff like CM Resttalk monoattack is fine because it can keep boosting while asleep, but zboosting can only happen once, meaning Sleep Talk has two useless moves to call instead of just Rest. Is there some way to make it so moves that are only useful for their z effect (trick or treat, conversion, and happy hour for example), don't get put on the same set as sleep talk?
Thanks for the great explanation.
That being said, I really do think Magneton should be reconsidered, since it's classified as UU, would hit a bit more than non-specs Magnezone due to the level difference (I assume Magneton would get level 77-79), would be much bulkier (with Eviolite) and would be a bit faster as you said. Even if it has the same abilities as Magnezone, I think it could differ by getting Sturdy, as opposed to Magnezone always having Magnet Pull (haven't seen Sturdy Magnezone in a while).
As a UU, Magneton would be a 77 to Magnezone's 75. It's worth noting that the Level difference would not let it hit more than non-Specs Magnezone as Magnezone will come out with 10 more Special Attack even after the level adjustments. Sure, in a Magneton vs non-Specs Magnezone 1v1, Eviolite Magneton comes out on top because of the added bulk, but I still have reservations about whether that added Speed will be useful enough for its inclusion. Is the base 60 to base 70 transition really that important for randbats, especially since Magneton with current rules cannot get Scarf (because it gets stuck with Eviolite)? Should Magneton get Scarf?
If Magneton does get in i think Scarf Sturdy is the way to go. Fast Speed, good typing, can usually attack at least twice before fainting, and can pivot out with Volt Switch. Unfortunate that the Speed gap is not as high since it is UU, though,
On the topic of NFEs that might earn a spot with an advantage they have over an evolution, Misdreavus’ greatly enhanced bulk over Mismagius (with Eviolite and PU) could let it use moves like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp / Hex, Pain Split, Heal Bell, and Foul Play better. 80 Speed with PU tier might also be enough for things like Taunt/Memento/Destiny Bond, especially considering its bulk for the first two.
E: yikes thought it was significantly more prevalent
On the topic of NFEs that might earn a spot with an advantage they have over an evolution, Misdreavus’ greatly enhanced bulk over Mismagius (with Eviolite and PU) could let it use moves like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp / Hex, Pain Split, Heal Bell, and Foul Play better. 80 Speed with PU tier might also be enough for things like Taunt/Memento/Destiny Bond, especially considering its bulk for the first two.
E: yikes thought it was significantly more prevalent
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