Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Battle Sets

[FloofzyKitten]

EDIT: This post is mostly for no-dmax, in d-max ladder Sash is much more useful to stop sweeping d-max mons.

This may seem controversial, but I think the sash threshold is too high. There are many Pokemon that are quite bulky that for some odd reason can get sash if they are the lead, or Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock that would perform better with HDB.

Garbodor - One of the best examples. Garbodor has 80/82/82 bulk which isn't anything to sneeze at. It has only two weaknesses and it can reliably live Super Effective STAB Ground and Psychic attacks granted they do not meet the above conditions. It can even live Leftovers Lando-T Earthquake, and has a 25% chance to live the LO boosted one.
Examples:
Lvl 82 84 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psychic vs. Lvl 86 84 HP / 84 SpD Garbodor: 234-276 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 84 84 Atk Sandaconda Earthquake vs. Lvl 86 84 HP / 84 Def Garbodor: 218-258 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Magmortar - One of the mons that accentuates how Sash for some reason has priority over much more useful items such as HDB. The only reason you should be sacking a Pokemon with good special attack and coverage in the first two turns is if you have to stop a set-up, or you're psychic and you know that they don't have any other Pokemon in the back that wouldn't like to be hit by a 125 Base Sp. Attack Fire Blast/T-Bolt/Focus Blast or Earthquake.

Focus Sash is still a really good item, but it needs some exceptions in the rule to account for Pokemon that are actually bulky (by perhaps lowering the threshold) or by having Focus Sash specifically not be put on Pokemon weak to Stealth Rock in a metagame where hazards are much more common than hazard control. Focus Sash is also a bit of a "noob trap" item that takes advantage of your opponent not knowing about your coverage moves for it to work effectively. You will notice the higher up in ladder you go, the less useful focus sash is.

Additionally, Focus Sash in Randbats is weaker than it is in other metagames because you have to scout the opponents team and Pokemon are bulkier and don't hit as hard due to even EV spreads.

 

[Shadows4]

I think toxic would be useful on Gurdurr. Ik it hurts for it to lose any move in its arsenal, but the versatility provided by toxic would work well with its defensive bulk. I find it difficult to set up with Gurdurr, but not too difficult to force switches. Toxic would be good for switches

Edit: Just noticed it has defog. I think that's new? That was the alternate suggestion I had in mind, maybe I never noticed it before. Toxic+defog spreads its niche of physical wall even thinner, so I don't think both would be good. Still, toxic provides Gurdurr with more versatility than it currently has, so it's something to think about. Imo toxic is more useful overall than defog on Gurdurr cause of its low speed, but defog alone is ok too. Idk if this is the place to put this, but I wouldn't mind losing Gurdurr altogether. It's pretty mediocre, especially for an NFE

 

[Cat Steven]

I got Lilligant with giga drain and petal dance today. Isn't double stab meant to be rejected for non choice mons?

Lilligant (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 84
EVs: 85 HP / 85 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Petal Dance
- Quiver Dance

 

[thatcameguy]

ice beam should be removed from quagsire since it takes away toxic which is way better on quagsire, i also don't see a reason to run ice beam at all since you're never going to stay in vs the mons it hits

 

[ArtinKernel]

Let's fix Spiritomb. It's a pretty bad mon in general, so there's not much that can be done, but at least it could have sets that are not trash. Unboosted, its attacks hit like a wet noodle, and typically the most you'll get out of it is burning something or trading it in order to reduce one mon to like, 20-40% health. Maybe you can use Shadow Sneak to finish off something, but often it's just setup bait.

Calm Mind is terrible on it. 50 HP really undermines its admittedly solid Def and SpDef, so it's really not that bulky, and its SpAtk is on the weak end, you'll need 3+ Calm Minds to do any serious damage. Granted lots of successful CM'ers have SpAtk in that range, but those CM users don't have 35 speed, have a top-tier ability (Clef, Fini), or have an amazing mono-attack (Suicune). In my experience it dies before it can get enough CM's, and for CM sets to really succeed, it needs ResTalk for longevity. CM / ResTalk / Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse isn't that great and is walled by any dark type, though I think that is Spiritomb's current best set in Randbats, I've seen it put in decent work in the right matchup. ResTalk / 2 attacks or ResTalk / Wisp + attack is just bad.

So my proposal (maybe this was mentioned before here? I don't remember) is give it a Choice Band set with any of Sneak / Sucker / Poltergeist / Trick / Foul Play. With CB Spiritomb can actually do a nontrivial amount of damage, not requiring 3+ turns of setup like CM, and it can Trick the Band away to cripple something, which is more utility than I find most current Spiritomb sets provide.

EDIT: Another suggestion I just thought of would be to give Lunatone a Power Herb + Meteor Beam set. Also, I recently got a NP Lunatone without Power Gem, this seems bad. Though Power Gem has low base power, it's STAB, and Rock is good coverage with [one of Earth Power, Ice Beam] and Psychic.

 

[Aquaa]

ice beam should be removed from quagsire since it takes away toxic which is way better on quagsire, i also don't see a reason to run ice beam at all since you're never going to stay in vs the mons it hits

I find Ice Beam to be a nice immediate response to many Dragon-types Quagsire enjoys damaging. Those include Salamence, Garchomp, Rayquaza, Altaria, Flygon, Zygarde, Noivern, and Dragonite. While Toxic is comparatively more preferred, I don't think Ice Beam is bad enough to warrant taking it off (imo).

 

[Aquaa]

Let's fix Spiritomb. It's a pretty bad mon in general, so there's not much that can be done, but at least it could have sets that are not trash. Unboosted, its attacks hit like a wet noodle, and typically the most you'll get out of it is burning something or trading it in order to reduce one mon to like, 20-40% health. Maybe you can use Shadow Sneak to finish off something, but often it's just setup bait.

Calm Mind is terrible on it. 50 HP really undermines its admittedly solid Def and SpDef, so it's really not that bulky, and its SpAtk is on the weak end, you'll need 3+ Calm Minds to do any serious damage. Granted lots of successful CM'ers have SpAtk in that range, but those CM users don't have 35 speed, have a top-tier ability (Clef, Fini), or have an amazing mono-attack (Suicune). In my experience it dies before it can get enough CM's, and for CM sets to really succeed, it needs ResTalk for longevity. CM / ResTalk / Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse isn't that great and is walled by any dark type, though I think that is Spiritomb's current best set in Randbats, I've seen it put in decent work in the right matchup. ResTalk / 2 attacks or ResTalk / Wisp + attack is just bad.

So my proposal (maybe this was mentioned before here? I don't remember) is give it a Choice Band set with any of Sneak / Sucker / Poltergeist / Trick / Foul Play. With CB Spiritomb can actually do a nontrivial amount of damage, not requiring 3+ turns of setup like CM, and it can Trick the Band away to cripple something, which is more utility than I find most current Spiritomb sets provide.

EDIT: Another suggestion I just thought of would be to give Lunatone a Power Herb + Meteor Beam set. Also, I recently got a NP Lunatone without Power Gem, this seems bad. Though Power Gem has low base power, it's STAB, and Rock is good coverage with [one of Earth Power, Ice Beam] and Psychic.

Interesting ideas. I like the sound of banded Spiritomb with Foul Play, but I'm not so sure about the rest of the set. It just seems passive and Spiritomb won't always be placed in a position where it will want to trick away its Choice Band. Consequently, I don't think it's strong enough to warrant a band set with Sucker Punch; that can easily be taken advantage of. Also, the set you're suggesting is walled by Dark types even more than the current set, which can at least carry Will-o-Wisp. I also like Psychic on it as it can capably deal some decent damage to Fighting types which otherwise resist Spiritomb's attacks.

Meteor Beam Lunatone sounds nice, but I've been liking Nasty Plot on it. I think its performance has improved since Moonblast was added. I find Nasty Plot more consistent and reliable in terms of setting up.

 

[AV Cosmoem]

Yeah why is it Thunderbolt...

A super-effective Thunderbolt does less damage than a neutral Moonblast when used by Xerneas.

Lvl 67 84 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 112-133 (43.4 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 67 84 SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 108-128 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Therefore I am requesting a change of Thunderbolt -> Thunder for Xerneas.

Lvl 67 84 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 112-133 (43.4 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 67 84 SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 132-156 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[SparksBlade]

Yeah why is it Thunderbolt...

A super-effective Thunderbolt does less damage than a neutral Moonblast when used by Xerneas.

Lvl 67 84 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 112-133 (43.4 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 67 84 SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 108-128 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Therefore I am requesting a change of Thunderbolt -> Thunder for Xerneas.

Lvl 67 84 SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 112-133 (43.4 - 51.5%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
Lvl 67 84 SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. Lvl 80 84 HP / 84 SpD Tornadus: 132-156 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it's not to hit tornadus super effectively, but to hit hooh corv skarm while also being able to hit steel types for decent damage. thunder is an unnecessary added risk for very little and conditional gains

 

[AV Cosmoem]

it's not to hit tornadus super effectively, but to hit hooh corv skarm while also being able to hit steel types for decent damage. thunder is an unnecessary added risk for very little and conditional gains

Tornadus was an example but OK I see where this is coming from

 

[FloofzyKitten]

Azelf with Leftovers is incredibly dumb. Azelf is NOTORIOUS for being frail, why anyone would even consider putting lefties on it is insane considering it also frequently gets U-Turn, which makes lefties even more useless because every time you U-turn you don't get to use Leftovers.

I also think that any Pokemon that can roll both Sash and Leftovers be looked at because those are two contradictory items. Obviously there are edge cases where a Pokemon can viably run both sash and leftovers, but in most instances a pokemon should either be able to run one or the other. Leftovers implies a Pokemon is bulky enough to take a few hits, Sash implies it is frail enough to be OHKO'd.

 

[Galaxyboy 2005]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1328422914-3f710lxttrlpur9ntj9i3v305ebrpv5pw
Rolled pheromosa without u turn. This sucks imo cause u turn is one of pheromosas biggest assests allowing it to chip the enemy with its scary attacking stat and return to safety. I request its 2 stabs cc and u turn be forced on it if possible.

 

[pokeblade101]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1328422914-3f710lxttrlpur9ntj9i3v305ebrpv5pw
Rolled pheromosa without u turn. This sucks imo cause u turn is one of pheromosas biggest assests allowing it to chip the enemy with its scary attacking stat and return to safety. I request its 2 stabs cc and u turn be forced on it if possible.

Forcing U-turn will make Pheromosa never have Life Orb again.

 

[Galaxyboy 2005]

Forcing U-turn will make Pheromosa never have Life Orb again.

oh f. No way to do this then?

 

[pokeblade101]

oh f. No way to do this then?

Might not be. Pheromosa was actually the reason U-turn doesn't allow Life Orb anymore because it would be worn down easily.

 

[Galaxyboy 2005]

Might not be. Pheromosa was actually the reason U-turn doesn't allow Life Orb anymore because it would be worn down easily.

I see. Tho i am not sure if lorb recoil on u turn is that bad Since it barely lives a neutral hit anyway. But anyway thanks for the clarification

 

[pokeblade101]

I see. Tho i am not sure if lorb recoil on u turn is that bad Since it barely lives a neutral hit anyway. But anyway thanks for the clarification

No problem and it isn't about taking a hit but limiting how much it can attack and Pheromosa love switching moves.

 

[gali]

let's talk about magearna. its only set currently (cm+agility double dance) is total dogshit in randbats. it needs at least 2 free turns to set up which is really hard to come by especially for a pokemon as slow as magearna. its also completely walled by fire and steel types, not to mention that it needs to keep burning cm turns if it uses fleur cannon. i think the double dance set should be replaced with a few options (specs, cm+3 attacks, av) that let it take greater advantage of its awesome defensive typing and naturally high special attack.

 

[Shadows4]

let's talk about magearna. its only set currently (cm+agility double dance) is total dogshit in randbats. it needs at least 2 free turns to set up which is really hard to come by especially for a pokemon as slow as magearna. its also completely walled by fire and steel types, not to mention that it needs to keep burning cm turns if it uses fleur cannon. i think the double dance set should be replaced with a few options (specs, cm+3 attacks, av) that let it take greater advantage of its awesome defensive typing and naturally high special attack.

I've really enjoyed Magearna's current set. I agree that it's inconsistent, but imo it's a great wincon if you scout and don't reveal it. And if you don't want to do that/don't have the opportunities, you can still get pretty good chip or kos with its current coverage. Magearna also lacks coverage for fire types no matter what, and has to use aura sphere or fblast to hit steels super effectively. A trickspecs/av set w tbolt and fblast would still probably be good, but I like the potential Magearna has to become an insane sweeper w cm boosts/steelspike/soul heart

Edit: Example, t18. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1330051313
The other person made mistakes, but magearna's good bulk and great typing still allowed it to set up and sweep in an untraditional circumstance. Even if they'd had their dynamax at this point, magearna would've 1v1ed everything there w its dyna after it used agility, and continued to sweep afterwards

 

[pokeblade101]

let's talk about magearna. its only set currently (cm+agility double dance) is total dogshit in randbats. it needs at least 2 free turns to set up which is really hard to come by especially for a pokemon as slow as magearna. its also completely walled by fire and steel types, not to mention that it needs to keep burning cm turns if it uses fleur cannon. i think the double dance set should be replaced with a few options (specs, cm+3 attacks, av) that let it take greater advantage of its awesome defensive typing and naturally high special attack.

We actually removed those other sets because they made magearna's performance even worse. CM + 3 attacks is kinda terrible. Specs and AV might work but I would rather not get rid of its best performing set to date.

 

[Shadows4]

This is small, but I'd like to propose defog on Emolga and/or Weezing. I thought about Rotom (neutral) too, but that seemed too jank.
Hazards are really strong right now, and I find myself without a defogger or spinner pretty often. In Emolga's case, it's already a support mon. It's got good speed, it often gets boots, and, though it has plenty of useful moves, it lacks sweeper potential.
Weezing is similar. I don't think it's as good an option as Emolga cause defog means no tspikes, but Weezing G rolls defog and I've found that pretty useful.

 

[SparksBlade]

pex without recover

pex without recover

 

[pokeblade101]

pex without recover

View attachment 337709

pex without recover

Lol yeah Stab enforcement and enforcement in general is looking pretty broken for some mons. Heatran and Toxapex as I've gathered so far.

 

[Ander228]

How about a Physical Guzzlord. Its Beast Boost is Attack so it seems to make sense that it should run a physical set.
Another idea would be a 0 Atk Guzzlord.

Physical moves: Dragon Claw, Body Slam, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Head, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Crunch, Poison Jab, Drain Punch
Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse, Snarl, Flamethrower

 

[pokeblade101]

Another idea would be a 0 Atk Guzzlord.

This already happens but 20% of the time

Physical moves: Dragon Claw, Body Slam, Hammer Arm, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Head, Iron Tail, Knock Off, Crunch, Poison Jab, Drain Punch

I would support having only Earthquake added to its movepool from this tbf. Heavy Slam would be better than Iron Head and Iron Tail due to consistency. Drain Punch is rather weak and Guzzlord gigantic HP stat makes it not recover much. This and Hammer Arm doesn't really provide much coverage with the moves it already has. Dragon Claw is too weak and Body Slam is unreliable.

Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Dark Pulse, Sludge Bomb, Fire Blast, Dragon Pulse, Snarl, Flamethrower

As mentioned before all special attacks do happen already. Dragon Pulse I don't think is worth it and Snarl is not very good in singles. Flamethrower over Fire Blast would be odd.

Overall, Physical only Guzzlord is kinda off the table but what I can take from this is to add Earthquake to compliment its Attack Boosts more.