I feel like it's important to remember that Delcatty was introduced in gen 3 alongside contests. That gen really tried to push the notion that battling is not the only way to be successful in the pokemon world and that some pokemon that are not cut out for battling can still excel in other areas. Iirc even its pokedex entry mentions that it doesn't really fight.
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Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?
- Thread starter DrumstickGaming
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Well, that would make more sense in-game if the franchise consistently kept Contests/the Pokeathelon/any other competitive minigame in which mons can be used without battling.
In ORAS, if on a particular save file I felt like actually doing Contests, I would have a separate team just for those, and that would be a great time for some of my reserves to shine outside of battles (including the aforementioned Skitty line). But that was one game.
Another one of those victims of "starts good ends kinda shit" victims of early in-game balancing, Butterfree makes me sad. Like Beedrill, Game Freak has desperately tried to make up for its transgressions against the fan-favourite bug...and every kid who thought they were badass for evolving the bugs...ever since.
Has anyone actually looked at Butterfree's stats? They're like, the saddest things I've seen in my entire life. It's slower than *checks notes* Pidgeotto and Rattata. Not only that, but like, its stats are comparable to that of an NFE. At least Beedrill can claim it has STAB in RBY; Butterfree has nothing, the only move it has of its own type here is String Shot, iirc.
Butterfree, initially, looks ok: it has Powders and Psychic, all of which are excellent. However, even in an in-game run of RBY, its only purpose is Sleep, and there's a ton of Pokemon that can outdo Butterfree...like Jynx, which thanks to the in-game trade, grows like a weed. It's nice for beating Brock early and can give Misty trouble, but after that, it's basically worthless outside of sleeping something, which once again, it's outclassed in that role.
Nothing is sadder than Butterfree man, I swear.
I used Butterfree in a run to test it for the RBY in-game tier list and it was terrible. I taught it Psychic and it still failed to 2HKO in a lot of cases, unless it hit super effectively. The only good thing about Butterfree is early Sleep Powder, but if you are not looking for that, you probably should consider using literally anything else.
Flareon has decent coverage, at least for an Eeveeloution. Like, not competitive-level by any means, but in-game Iron Tail/Dig/Superpower/Quick Attack is pretty decent for coverage. The problem is everything else. His fire options are Fire Fang or Flare Blitz, which is either weak or suicidal, especially in-game where longevity is important. He's slow with low HP, so you need to take a hit before you get the chance to kill yourself with Flare Blitz. Give him Blaze Kick and he'd still suck competitively, but in-game wouldn't be so rough.
I'm currently doing an eeveeloution theme run of Shield, and Flareon is def the odd one out. Everything else can either take a bunch of hits or can outspeed and one-shot everything, but Flareon has to be used very carefully, and I wish GF had fixed that at some point in the last 7 generations.
I remember back before Flareon got Flare Blitz, you'd see weekly forum posts from people saying "PLEASE, Game Freak! Give Flareon Flare Blitz! He needs it!"
Then he got it and it really didn't do much at all to improve him.
Because he needs the turn to boost Flame Charge + Toxic Orb to activate, and yet the coverage is not no good ... Superpower is MEH. Facade is never SE, Flare Blitz has recoil.
What Flareon really needs is its stats changed to 65/95/60/130/65/110//525.
Of course that's never going to happen, so the second best thing would probably be a +1 priority Physical Fire-type move, maybe something a bit stronger than a Quick Attack clone (would like an Extreme Speed clone though that's probably not likely, maybe 60 Power?).
So in your ideal theorymon scenario/fan game creation you’d change the only Eeveelution with Attack as its top stat so it could be one of three with Special Attack as their top stat? Even though its special coverage is even worse?
I mean I imagine you’d also want to change its movepool and hidden ability along with the stat changes, but at that point it’s not really the same Pokémon anymore.
- While it's not its highest stat, Leafeon is a Physical Attacker and it gets Leaf Blade so it's already doing the Physical Attacker Eeveelution thing better. And I'm sure Leafeon would be more than happy to swap its Attack with its Defense as I don't think 130 Defense is going to do much for a Grass-type with 65 base HP.
- Of course I'd change it's movepool, though it is one of the few Pokemon that gets Lava Plume so I think that gives it come unique use.
- Sure it won't be the same Flareon we're used to cause it would be better. "But wouldn't that make it like every other Fire-type thus there is going to be something better than it?" Yeah, but you can say that also about the other Eeveelutions. Eeveelutions aren't really meant to be competitive, closest ones I think are Espeon with Magic Bounce and Sylveon cause Fairy-type; you use an Eeveelution in-game cause it fills a slot &/or role you may be missing on your team. They're also nice designs and if you really want to be gimmicky you can form a whole team of them now.
Flareon needs a better hidden ability. Who thought it was a good idea to give a fire type guts? That I will never understand.
By the time Flareon got Flare Blitz, there were too many powerful fire type competition and even those who were bad too got amazing buffs like Entei.
While we are at fire types
So you have this thing which is slow, takes awful long to evolve and by the time you even get to it, you have far better Fire Types to choose from.
Let's ignore GSC for a second, I will talk about RSE and Colosseum.
- RSE: You can catch Numel which has a better Typing, evolves 5 levels earlier and learns a better Rock Type move earlier upon evolution. You only lack a good fire move per level up. But I feel it is far more worth using Camerupt teaching it Overheat, Flamethrower or Fire Blast than grind a Slugma to lv36 for Flamethrower and evolve it into Magcargo which has 2 dual weaknesses and is insanely slow.
Also there is Torkoal who learns Flamethrower at lv30. Yeah, Torkoal sucks too but better than this evolutionary line.
I rather run late game Vulpix over that thing.
RSE is really disappointing when it comes to fire types in-game (minus Blaziken)
- Colosseum offers you as competition Entei and Quilava. I used Slugma and it was awful. Try grinding that thing, it's a nightmare. You catch it at lv30. You can't teach it anything until it's heart is open fully and you have to grind it 8 levels to evolve. Entei may be harder to catch, but if you want a viable fire type, go with that or choose Quilava as your starter. Slugma takes more time to be purified than Quilava and I don't think anyone wants to waste a time flute on that thing.
Colosseum has already a pretty bad Pokemon selection. Mostly Gen 2 Pokemon who are awful in-game for the most part.
By the time Flareon got Flare Blitz, there were too many powerful fire type competition and even those who were bad too got amazing buffs like Entei.
While we are at fire types
So you have this thing which is slow, takes awful long to evolve and by the time you even get to it, you have far better Fire Types to choose from.
Let's ignore GSC for a second, I will talk about RSE and Colosseum.
- RSE: You can catch Numel which has a better Typing, evolves 5 levels earlier and learns a better Rock Type move earlier upon evolution. You only lack a good fire move per level up. But I feel it is far more worth using Camerupt teaching it Overheat, Flamethrower or Fire Blast than grind a Slugma to lv36 for Flamethrower and evolve it into Magcargo which has 2 dual weaknesses and is insanely slow.
Also there is Torkoal who learns Flamethrower at lv30. Yeah, Torkoal sucks too but better than this evolutionary line.
I rather run late game Vulpix over that thing.
RSE is really disappointing when it comes to fire types in-game (minus Blaziken)
- Colosseum offers you as competition Entei and Quilava. I used Slugma and it was awful. Try grinding that thing, it's a nightmare. You catch it at lv30. You can't teach it anything until it's heart is open fully and you have to grind it 8 levels to evolve. Entei may be harder to catch, but if you want a viable fire type, go with that or choose Quilava as your starter. Slugma takes more time to be purified than Quilava and I don't think anyone wants to waste a time flute on that thing.
Colosseum has already a pretty bad Pokemon selection. Mostly Gen 2 Pokemon who are awful in-game for the most part.
Ok but
- if you change Leafeon to fill the Attack gap left by changing Flareon then you’ve got the same problem but with Defense instead
- to my knowledge Lava Plume is only used competitively on defensive or support-based sets by Pokémon like Torkoal and Heatran.
Your proposed Flareon would much rather just use Fire Blast or maybe Flamethrower 95% of the time - I’m not even sure what your point is here
Back to the topic at hand, I found Rotom really disappointing the first time I used it in Platinum (didn’t have access to the event forme changes). You go to the Old Chateau and find this really cool and rare Pokémon that’s super hard to catch when you’ve only just gotten your second badge, plus its unique typing and the unusual method of obtaining it make it seem like it’s gonna be really strong. In-game, however, it ended up only being ok.
It has some great matchups (e.g. it laughs at Maylene’s Lucario by virtue of its typing+ability) and it learns some cool support moves by level-up, but most of the time it’s too frail or too weak to contribute much, especially towards the lategame.
In Platinum its only Ghost attack learned by level-up is Ominous Wind at Level 29 (with its 5 PP) and you’re stuck with Shock Wave as your best Electric attack until Level 50 Discharge, so it basically requires you to teach it the Thunder/Thunderbolt and Shadow Ball TMs to give it any kind of offensive presence. It felt like it was always missing out on KOs and getting obliterated in return unless it had a really good matchup.
Butterfree was pretty dang good in Sun/Moon from what I played. It learns really, really powerful moves compared to most everything else in the early-mid game, and then when its poor stats start to catch up, it learns Quiver Dance in the late 40s which can be easily set up with Accurate Sleep Powder.
I used Slugma in Emerald recently, and while it sucked, it was surprisingly not the worst thing I played. Yawn+Protect induces free sleep turns, which when combined with Rollout (learned from a tutor) allows for some wicked sweeps. It put up good results vs Tate&Liza with a Claydol down, which is way more work than other jank mons have done for me in that game. Still, I do wish Game Freak does something cool with the Slugma family down the line in later Gens. If there's something that deserves a new game warping ability, a new form, or a new evolution, it's Slugma.
Well in that case they should at least make a better strong Physical Fire-type move without a drawback.
They did. It was called Sizzly Slide. Except it was just on one Pokémon for one pair of games (...so far)
Flareon doesn't need big changes, but it does need specific, targeted changes. Right now it's too slow to be a sweeper, has 65/60/110 defenses so it's not taking any hits, and between Guts, SR weakness, and being slow as molasses, it's going to be chipped down well before doing anything of note. You don't need to turn it into Jolteon, but it needs something.
So what are we starting with? Good support moveset, decent coverage for in-game, massive attack+Guts. Limits are that the Eeveeloutions have trash coverage in general, default stats are hideous outside Atk, and that the HP in particular is a big limiting factor.
Options:
Better moveset. Flare Blitz is non-viable for something with 65 HP, and Fire Fang is trash. Pyro Ball/Blaze Kick/Fire Lash would all let it deal damage without committing suicide. It probably also needs better priority to fix the speed issues, which means ESpeed. This should at least make it viable in-game, but if it doesn't then you've made it hard to do any future fixes without breaking it.
Move stats around. This messes with the spirit of the mon, but 95/130/60/65/110/65 is much more similar to Sylveon and Vaporeon. You probably still need a non-Flare Blitz STAB, but you need it a lot less, and this lets Wish actually heal, that SDef can take a hit, and chip matters less.
Better ability. Problem is, I don't know what you'd give it, and assuming this is the HA, it still doesn't help in-game. Fire-type Pixelate would be powerful, but that's the only thing I can think of that'd be better than Guts, and I still don't think that fixes the actual problems.
So what are we starting with? Good support moveset, decent coverage for in-game, massive attack+Guts. Limits are that the Eeveeloutions have trash coverage in general, default stats are hideous outside Atk, and that the HP in particular is a big limiting factor.
Options:
Better moveset. Flare Blitz is non-viable for something with 65 HP, and Fire Fang is trash. Pyro Ball/Blaze Kick/Fire Lash would all let it deal damage without committing suicide. It probably also needs better priority to fix the speed issues, which means ESpeed. This should at least make it viable in-game, but if it doesn't then you've made it hard to do any future fixes without breaking it.
Move stats around. This messes with the spirit of the mon, but 95/130/60/65/110/65 is much more similar to Sylveon and Vaporeon. You probably still need a non-Flare Blitz STAB, but you need it a lot less, and this lets Wish actually heal, that SDef can take a hit, and chip matters less.
Better ability. Problem is, I don't know what you'd give it, and assuming this is the HA, it still doesn't help in-game. Fire-type Pixelate would be powerful, but that's the only thing I can think of that'd be better than Guts, and I still don't think that fixes the actual problems.
Flareon is fine as it is right now.
Firstly, though not necessarily attached to in-game, currently Leafeon and Glaceon are ZU (and Glaceon is outclassed in ZU; Leafeon is really good though) while Flareon is PU. So it's the third-worst Eeveelution.
Secondly, its moveset literally has everything it needs. Flame Charge, Facade, Flare Blitz, Superpower / Iron Tail is a completely viable moveset. Flame Charge boosts its speed to everyone else's for a late-game clean, Facade is used on almost every Guts user anyway as a reliable nuke with no drawbacks, Superpower / Iron Tail break the Rock-Type Pokémon that wall its other two moves, and Flare Blitz is if you need a nuke that's even stronger than Facade. This is completely fine and viable, and if we added any other existing moves to its moveset (besides Close Combat in the Superpower slot, or perhaps High Horsepower but I wouldn't count on it) it would use the same moves as it does now.
GameFreak knows what they're doing with Pokémon design 9 times out of 10. The point of individual Pokémon isn't for all of them to be good, it's for them all to be different. It's impossible for everything to be as good as each other in a game with nearing on 1,000 Pokémon, after all, and some Pokémon fare much worse than Flareon. If it didn't have the Eeveelution name attached to it, people would consider it a fine somewhat weak but still useful Pokémon, and being an Eeveelution shouldn't really change anything. If a player needs a Fire-Type and is given an Eevee, they'll evolve it into Flareon and it'll be perfectly viable. If they don't need Flareon, they'll evolve it into something else anyway.
And then you have Heatmor. I mean, Heatmor has the reliable physical Fire-Type STAB people are saying Flareon needs, and it's the only FE Fire-Type Pokémon in ZU right now anyway. It still has its niches (Fire / Grass coverage is actually amazing and rare; strong priority is always nice) but its lack of Flame Charge holds it back greatly. Which is fine, because Flareon is our physical Fire-Type who relies on Flame Charge for speed control; Heatmor is tankier and has stronger priority and HP recovering moves in Giga Drain and Drain Punch, which Flareon lacks. Therefore they're unique, and that's what gives Pokémon character and is a very healthy aspect to Pokémon design.
Firstly, though not necessarily attached to in-game, currently Leafeon and Glaceon are ZU (and Glaceon is outclassed in ZU; Leafeon is really good though) while Flareon is PU. So it's the third-worst Eeveelution.
Secondly, its moveset literally has everything it needs. Flame Charge, Facade, Flare Blitz, Superpower / Iron Tail is a completely viable moveset. Flame Charge boosts its speed to everyone else's for a late-game clean, Facade is used on almost every Guts user anyway as a reliable nuke with no drawbacks, Superpower / Iron Tail break the Rock-Type Pokémon that wall its other two moves, and Flare Blitz is if you need a nuke that's even stronger than Facade. This is completely fine and viable, and if we added any other existing moves to its moveset (besides Close Combat in the Superpower slot, or perhaps High Horsepower but I wouldn't count on it) it would use the same moves as it does now.
GameFreak knows what they're doing with Pokémon design 9 times out of 10. The point of individual Pokémon isn't for all of them to be good, it's for them all to be different. It's impossible for everything to be as good as each other in a game with nearing on 1,000 Pokémon, after all, and some Pokémon fare much worse than Flareon. If it didn't have the Eeveelution name attached to it, people would consider it a fine somewhat weak but still useful Pokémon, and being an Eeveelution shouldn't really change anything. If a player needs a Fire-Type and is given an Eevee, they'll evolve it into Flareon and it'll be perfectly viable. If they don't need Flareon, they'll evolve it into something else anyway.
And then you have Heatmor. I mean, Heatmor has the reliable physical Fire-Type STAB people are saying Flareon needs, and it's the only FE Fire-Type Pokémon in ZU right now anyway. It still has its niches (Fire / Grass coverage is actually amazing and rare; strong priority is always nice) but its lack of Flame Charge holds it back greatly. Which is fine, because Flareon is our physical Fire-Type who relies on Flame Charge for speed control; Heatmor is tankier and has stronger priority and HP recovering moves in Giga Drain and Drain Punch, which Flareon lacks. Therefore they're unique, and that's what gives Pokémon character and is a very healthy aspect to Pokémon design.
Agreed! Usually when I look at the tweaks people say Flareon needs I just end up thinking ‘nice job, you remade Entei’
I can understand someone being concerned about Flareon’s in-game performance, because in later games it often struggles, but I think the solution to that is to improve and front-load its level-up movepool, which has always sucked.
Hmm, I'm wondering if they could maybe give Guts another boon. Would it preventing Poison & Burn damage on a turn the afflicted Pokemon uses a damaging move make it too powerful? Because I'm thinking, if it did, then Flareon holding a Toxic Orb wouldn't be so bad.
Guts works correctly. You are taking a risk by using it.
The only problem here is that Flareon sucks. Both in looks, and battle capabilities.
Give it 200 / 200 / 200 / 200 / 200 / 200 stats and it won't be bad :xd:
but to provide some more serious content here, I am gonna talk about Hitmonchan in RBY. Like, it's just terrible. When I used it, I thought that people were exaggarating its badness. Well, turns out I was wrong. This thing has a poor movepool (best STAB move is Submission yay) and only coverage is Seismic Toss and Strength, combined with Toxic for bulkier opponents. My Hitmonchan never swept any fight beyond the first one with Giovanni. The other fights always had something that can possibly stop a sweep. I consider Hitmonchan one of the 10 worst Pokemon in RBY due to that reason.
The only comment I can make about someone that picked Chan instead of Lee is "what did Hitmonlee do to you?"
but to provide some more serious content here, I am gonna talk about Hitmonchan in RBY. Like, it's just terrible. When I used it, I thought that people were exaggarating its badness. Well, turns out I was wrong. This thing has a poor movepool (best STAB move is Submission yay) and only coverage is Seismic Toss and Strength, combined with Toxic for bulkier opponents. My Hitmonchan never swept any fight beyond the first one with Giovanni. The other fights always had something that can possibly stop a sweep. I consider Hitmonchan one of the 10 worst Pokemon in RBY due to that reason.
The only comment I can make about someone that picked Chan instead of Lee is "what did Hitmonlee do to you?"
Meet Hitmonchan, the Pokémon specialized in punching moves! ... none of which it gets STAB from, and all but one run on its horrible 35 Special.
Seriously, what were they thinking?
Hitmonchan is tragic, and I wouldn't be shocked if the physical-special split happened because of its miserable existence. Amazing, incredible concept that could well have made it a top tier in RBY, thoroughly neutered by a horrific statline that would make even Beedrill recoil in fear.
The elemental punches, coming off Hitmonchan's awful Special, do literally nothing. The only one I'd argue is usable on Hitmonchan is Ice Punch, solely for potential 4x effectiveness on like, I dunno, Dragonite? And maybe you'll freeze something sometimes..? I dunno man, Hitmonchan sucks.
Why doesn't Hitmonchan get a signature move while Hitmonlee does, by the way? Like, damn, Hitmonlee's is just the best Fighting move in the game. Hell, it even gets Meditate to boost itself. All Hitmonchan has is Submission and Body Slam...which Hitmonlee gets...
At least it's only got better in later generations, coupled with a properly defined niche.
Regarding Flareon, I wrote back in Gen 7 how I would consider it should get buffed. Those buffs won't make it OU or anything.
I used to pick Hitmonchan as a kid all the time thinking it's better just because it has better coverage and doesn't damage itself with its moves. Now I know Hitmonlee is better to the point, it isn't even funny. Every Gen Hitmonlee outclasses Hitmonchan. And Hitmontop outclasses Hitmonchan since Gen 3.
Hitmonchan is tragic, and I wouldn't be shocked if the physical-special split happened because of its miserable existence. Amazing, incredible concept that could well have made it a top tier in RBY, thoroughly neutered by a horrific statline that would make even Beedrill recoil in fear.
The elemental punches, coming off Hitmonchan's awful Special, do literally nothing. The only one I'd argue is usable on Hitmonchan is Ice Punch, solely for potential 4x effectiveness on like, I dunno, Dragonite? And maybe you'll freeze something sometimes..? I dunno man, Hitmonchan sucks.
Why doesn't Hitmonchan get a signature move while Hitmonlee does, by the way? Like, damn, Hitmonlee's is just the best Fighting move in the game. Hell, it even gets Meditate to boost itself. All Hitmonchan has is Submission and Body Slam...which Hitmonlee gets...
At least it's only got better in later generations, coupled with a properly defined niche.
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