Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Sprocket]

I also HIGHLY doubt it was GF's intention to make Lv. 1's useable.

I doubt it was their intention to see level 1s in VGC, but if they wanted everything to auto-level to 50 in VGC and PGL they would have enabled it outright. The fact that people are clever enough to find a use for a level 1 Pokemon in a tournament environment is a testament to its player base.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I'm finding it disconcerting that so many people are resilient to change. And that they all target specific "Over-used" Pokemon when making their arguments, and how they will be knocked-out much faster because of this change. Isn't that part of the goal here? To balance the game and diversify the strategies that you can choose? How can you cheer for the potential inclusion of Pokemon like Galvantula into OU, and yet be so afraid that a top contender like Ferrothorn might lost a small bit of utility?

Change isn't inherently a good thing, one can point to pretty much countless real life examples as to why. There is also the fact that we have no say in any Gamefreak changes, they are pretty much forced upon us for a new metagame, so if there is a change you like in it, all the power to you. Perhaps this is just me, but one shouldn't change something unless given sufficient reason for doing do. People being happy over Galvantula are just embracing the changes already made.

 

[PKMN1]

I'm not worried about Pokemon like Ferrothorn getting worse. I'm worried about Pokemon like Kyurem-B getting better. Game Freak have, in my mind, already done a great job of trying to balance the game with generation 6 - sure it isn't perfect, but I'm optimistic things will be significantly better that they were at the end of gen 5. Why undermine their work to balance things a little more in favour of defensive teams by giving offensive Pokemon a blanket buff? I just can't see any concievable way that setting levels to 50 will result in a more desirable metagame - offense doesn't need to be any better - and the only way I feel a change like this should be justified is with the conviction that it might feasibly result in a more desirable metagame, and I can't any way that making our metagame more offensively-inclined, or alternatively banning several more Pokemon is going to make the game more fun. I can't see how the minicule advantages of this change outweight the clear negatives resulting from the way things work at a lower level.

Kyurem-B was meant to be OP, it is one of the box mascots.

 

[Jukain]

No. We play on simulators here, the problems of in-game users is really a niche concern.

I think the fact that you are alienating a population of players is short-sighted. There are more WiFi players that follow Smogon rules than sim players. Therefore, offering a small convenience to players with a minor learning curve for past players should mean virtually nothing. Old gen skills do not require any correlation to a new one. That I believe is an important point. It's a new game, and the only real possible time to change. The fact that you're ignoring our WiFi population, which has grown to include previously sim-exclusive players, is not good and must be addressed.

You're not going to train a team of 6 Lv100's feasibly without immense time investment.

 

[PKMN1]

Change isn't inherently a good thing, one can point to pretty much countless real life examples as to why. There is also the fact that we have no say in any Gamefreak changes, they are pretty much forced upon us for a new metagame, so if there is a change you like in it, all the power to you. Perhaps this is just me, but one shouldn't change something unless given sufficient reason for doing do. People being happy over Galvantula are just embracing the changes already made.

One good reason is the fat that the meta-game has basically been the same since 4th gen. you basically see the same 15-20 pokemon in nearly every match, and many people refuse to use other pokemon especially from lower tiers because of the stigma behind it.

 

[ogasian]

One good reason is the fat that the meta-game has basically been the same since 4th gen. you basically see the same 15-20 pokemon in nearly every match, and many people refuse to use other pokemon especially from lower tiers because of the stigma behind it.

Play gen 4. Now play gen 5. Do you see sedicated leads as often? Mix nape? Mi mence? Mew, azelf, keldeo, terrak, all of those gen 5 mons? Rain, sun, weaher wars?

 

[sidakarya]

I'm not worried about Pokemon like Ferrothorn getting worse. I'm worried about Pokemon like Kyurem-B getting better. Game Freak have, in my mind, already done a great job of trying to balance the game with generation 6 - sure it isn't perfect, but I'm optimistic things will be significantly better that they were at the end of gen 5. Why undermine their work to balance things a little more in favour of defensive teams by giving offensive Pokemon a blanket buff? I just can't see any concievable way that setting levels to 50 will result in a more desirable metagame - offense doesn't need to be any better - and the only way I feel a change like this should be justified is with the conviction that it might feasibly result in a more desirable metagame, and I can't any way that making our metagame more offensively-inclined, or alternatively banning several more Pokemon is going to make the game more fun. I can't see how the minicule advantages of this change outweight the clear negatives resulting from the way things work at a lower level.

Actually, the fact that Gamefreak set the auto-level threshhold to lv.50 instead of lv.100 suggests to me that they meant to balance the lv.50 metagame. Most of all doubles, which is the official metagame; but it's clear between the weather nerf, Stealth Rock nerf and better ways to counter dragons, that they also kept singles in mind as well.

And as said before, Black Kyurem was meant to be overpowered. It's supposed to be stronger than Reshiram and Zekrom, after all.

 

[MapleSandwich]

Considering the simulators job is to be as accurate to the games as possible I think it's perfectly reasonable to do level 50 as the standard since level 100 is unavailable via normal play. So just being true to the games and going level 50 seems fine.

This is basically my line of thinking. I can't see any justification at leaving it at level 100 besides "we feel like it". That said, being at level isn't inherently "wrong" since it is possible and many people will probably continue to do it anyways, because who doesn't want to have a big bad level 100 brawl? My personal vote is for level 50, but having it go either way won't bother me.

 

[PKMN1]

Play gen 4. Now play gen 5.

The only real difference i actually see is the abuse of weather even more, and the fact that a select few pokemon like Zapdos and suicune are dropped down to UU and promptly forgotten about just because they are not OU anymore. Sandstorm and SR still compltely rule the meta-game and the stuff that might have actually kicked it (or at least T-tar) off the throne were banned.

 

[blitzlefan]

Nintendo bans pokemon for the same reason as Smogon does. I am against pokemon like Chomp and Blaze getting banned anyway, mostly because they are not as hard to take down as people think they are. Blaziken For example has paper thin defenses and was banned because people switched a lot to try and counter it and let it get a SD up, which is STUPID. Any decently bulky pokemon who also has a super effective move against him can easily OHKO or get him in range for recoil, priority, or scarfer to beat him.

This isn't the place to argue about Blaziken and Garchomp. Nor do I think you understand how Blaziken is used and I think you're overestimating your own ability while underestimating the decision-making skills of the community. Lastly, Blaziken has Speed Boost. What Choice Scarf user are you sending to revenge something at +2 or +3 Speed?

TBH I don't think you're contributing all that much to the conversation. How does the possibly centralization of the metagame have anything to do with what level we use as the default for our simulator?

 

[rockspet]

You're not going to train a team of 6 Lv100's feasibly without immense time investment.

Immense being a couple of hours with improved exp share and lucky egg. The amount of time people spent abusing rngs and EV training I think is a testament to the fact that people will actually spend some time training their pokemon.

 

[Haruno]

The only real differnece i actually see is the abuse of weather even more, and the fact that a select few pokemon like Zapdos and suicune are dropped down to UU and promptly forgotten about just because they are not OU anymore.

weather abused more in gen 5 as opposed to gen 4 is a massive understatement................

 

[ogasian]

The only real differnece i actually see is the abuse of weather even more, and the fact that a select few pokemon like Zapdos and suicune are dropped down to UU and promptly forgotten about just because they are not OU anymore.

Play gen 4. Now play gen 5. Do you see sedicated leads as often? Mix nape? Mi mence? Mew, azelf, keldeo, terrak, all of those gen 5 mons? Rain, sun, weaher wars?

 

[Jukain]

I also want to say: WiFi IS PART OF SMOGON'S DOMAIN. There is no WiFi meta; there is simply a Smogon meta. Marginalizing the former is unwise.

 

[PKMN1]

This isn't the place to argue about Blaziken and Garchomp. Nor do I think you understand how Blaziken is used and I think you're overestimating your own ability while underestimating the decision-making skills of the community. Lastly, Blaziken has Speed Boost. What Choice Scarf user are you sending to revenge something at +2 or +3 Speed?

TBH I don't think you're contributing all that much to the conversation. How does the possibly centralization of the metagame have anything to do with what level we use as the default for our simulator?

1. I am not very good at the game competitively and I admit it.

2. It has something to do with it, because changing the level also changes many things about the metagame.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

One good reason is the fat that the meta-game has basically been the same since 4th gen. you basically see the same 15-20 pokemon in nearly every match, and many people refuse to use other pokemon especially from lower tiers because of the stigma behind it.

This is way off topic (infact I am not sure how you managed to tangent to this) but this is just so untrue. A clear example to the contrary is Swampert, yes in the beginning of gen 5 people did you use because it was good before, but within 6 months it dropped out of OU entirely because it had no niche. If something is good it will garner use eventually. The reason why those same handful of Pokemon keep on popping up in OU is because they are good overall, with excellent typing, movepools, abilities, ect.

And it not like we at the Smogon community don't stigmatize when this doesn't happen. Metagross never dropped to UU when it probably should for example, I don't think you will find many Smogon members argue that it deserves to be OU.

 

[pokemonnerd]

However, if you don't mind me getting philosophical, then I must ask this: "Why do we play competitive Pokemon?"

I'm sorry, I know this is off topic and of no use to discussion, but this reminded me of this:

Hide

Anyway, it's not that this change severely flips pokemon on its head(it'll only make things slightly more offensive than at level 100), it's that we don't need to follow this. Don't be confused by the fact that there's an option to auto level to 50; there are ways to battle at level 100 in the game. Which is why the "there is no level 100 battles in XY" statements are ridiculous. How do you do this, you may ask? Well just set "no restrictions" when setting the rules for the battle when searching for one. Yes, it is that simple.

 

[666lumberjack]

Kyurem-B was meant to be OP, it is one of the box mascots.

Perhaps so, but in generation five we determined it to be just barely manageable. I doubt Game Freak intended for Blaziken to be OP when they gave it speed boost, but it was, so we banned it. Are you suggesting we should avoid banning Pokemon like Excadrill and Blaziken because it might not be the intention of Game Freak that they be overpowered? That's a preposterous proposition. Game Freak probably intended for Mew to be OP, but we have determined that it very clearly is not.
(Sidenote here - you can agree or disagree on the bans and unbans that we have enacted, but for the purpose of this discussion those are the decisions that smogon collectively made.)

One good reason is the fat that the meta-game has basically been the same since 4th gen. you basically see the same 15-20 pokemon in nearly every match, and many people refuse to use other pokemon especially from lower tiers because of the stigma behind it.

Perhaps for lesser-skiller players this is true, but any top player is well aware that copying and pasting a generic team only functions reliably against a sufficiently skilled opponent if the facets comprising the team are better than the norm for the metagame; in a properly balanced meta this is untrue, and thus creative teambuilding is rewarded with a more successful team. Of course people are going to copy the fotm team - people like to win, and copying a good team and spamming it is a low-effort way to do that when the majority of your competition consists of fairly average players. The best players will always buck these trends by innovating against the established norm, that's what makes them so successful.

Also this is a total tangent but how does Gastrodon not completely fly in the face of your argument, I mean it was NU at the start of gen 5 but people saw its potential and it gradually rose into OU because it had potential. It sounds like you're just butthurt than niche mons don't see more use in OU, but they're niche Pokemon - they're not supposed to be popular, just occasionally useful.

 

[sidakarya]

I also find the argument that simulators are "meant to simulate local battles" is outdated. The 3DS's Wi-fi technology makes connecting with players far away from your region that play competitive Pokémon much easier, and certainly more people in these times connect over Wi-fi rather than local just because of the greater availability of players.

I understand it, that Showdown and PO let you have local battles as if it's Wi-fi, but as I've said, the differences between local and Wi-fi aren't really that different, especially in X+Y as compared to Black and White. In BW all you could have for IR battles were auto-50 with Wonder Launcher, but on Showdown we all played lv.100 without trainer items, like we would over non-random connections with friend codes. Which is why I don't like the idea of marginalising Wi-fi players in favour of simulators of only local battles.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

We have always simulated pokemon mechanics. As in the damage formula, stats, base power of moves, typing chart and stuff. We dont simulate their rules however, as in, we dont ban shit like victini because its ''legendary'' and we dont let sleep abusers spam their moves without any consequences. We have our own metagame with tiers, real banlists and clauses. As a simulator we are only concerned in simulating the game mechanics. Smogon's metagame has absolutely nothing to do with nintendo's. If they want to make lv 50 caps, not have any clauses, and force even the weakest crap to compete directly with ridiculous powerful monsters its their problem. Our teambuilders allow the players to access everything a pokemon can legally obtain ingame, giving the players the freedom to build whatever team they want. We only impose restrictions when they are necessary to balance OUR metagame. Capping the pokemons at level 50 would actually be AGAINST being faithful to the game's mechanics, because you know, being able to use a pokemon at any level between 1-100 is something that is part of the game. If people want to play nintendo's metagames, we can simply implement them like we did with last gen VGC as separate metas. or they could just buy the real deal

 

[Okuu]

Change isn't inherently a good thing, one can point to pretty much countless real life examples as to why. There is also the fact that we have no say in any Gamefreak changes, they are pretty much forced upon us for a new metagame, so if there is a change you like in it, all the power to you. Perhaps this is just me, but one shouldn't change something unless given sufficient reason for doing do. People being happy over Galvantula are just embracing the changes already made.

If you don't like change, and feel that Gamefreak is forcing changes on you, then why play the newer games? Why even consider diving into the Gen VI meta? We will still be maintaining older-generation metas, which are still quite fine to play. Compared to changes like the addition of 70-ish new pokemon, the addition of the Fairy typing, the alteration of move powers, etc., setting the Level cap to 50 is ridiculously minor in comparison.

I'm looking forward to the complete implementation of this meta, regardless of the level cap issue. I just figured, since so many aspects of the game are going to change, this would be a prime opportunity to make things more accurate; for those of us who actually battle people in-game.

 

[jas61292]

Capping the pokemons at level 50 would actually be AGAINST being faithful to the game's mechanics, because you know, being able to use a pokemon at any level between 1-100 is something that is part of the game.

So is being able to use any Pokemon in the game, with any moves you have on it and any ability you can get. Yet, we ban ubers and disallow things gotten through glitches and hacks. This itself is not a good argument because we already arbitrarily restrict things. The very existence of smogon tiers is 100% based on arbitrary restrictions. The difference is that this one is not something we came up with, but a part of the game itself. Or, in other words, not actually arbitrary at all.

 

[Megamaw]

 

[jas61292]

---> Ubers tier

Sleep Clause. Species Clause. Moody Ban. Arbitrary restrictions. In ubers.

---> Glitches, hence, they are NOT MEANT TO BE

And as soon as you get a game freak developer to say they were not meant to be, you can make that argument. But until then, it is just an assumption on our part. You should not assume developer intent as you have no way of knowing the truth.

 

[sidakarya]

So is being able to use any Pokemon in the game, with any moves you have on it and any ability you can get. Yet, we ban ubers and disallow things gotten through glitches and hacks. This itself is not a good argument because we already arbitrarily restrict things. The very existence of smogon tiers is 100% based on arbitrary restrictions. The difference is that this one is not something we came up with, but a part of the game itself. Or, in other words, not actually arbitrary at all.

People do play ubers over wi-fi though, and any other tier.