Weather clause is a really amazing idea! The best word to say "weather" is O V E R C E N T R A L I Z A T I O N. With a Weather clause we (or, at least I) will finally play with no Tyranitar, no Excadrill, no Garchomp (fuck you, Chomp, you're anyway uber), no Lightingrod Zapdos, i'll LOVE Smogon's OU with that Clause
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Poll: Would you still play in Smogon's OU if all perma-weather was banned?
- Thread starter Woodchuck
- Start date
Everyone will just say to play on a clear skies tier though -_-
Otherwise, weather clause would be nice.
I've been laddering up recently higher than I've gone before, in the 1100-1200s, and I've gotten to know weather a bit better. It's so overcentralized that every other team is a copypaste sand rain or sun(lol) team, and it's just not fun to play in an environment where I'm constantly fighting the same thing game after game. It gets so boring. I can say one good thing about all this gen 5 weather nonsense though, is that it's so overcentralized that it has become extremely predictable, and predictable sets are easier to take out. Sun has NEVER been a problem for me, god help the fool that gives my chandelure a FF boost and I sweep them. Sun is pretty fun to play against, as it's not stupidly broken like rain/some sandstorm. And their own boosted fire moves hurt them, so just run someone with fire attacks and its easy. Hail prolly wont ever see the light in OU, but in UU it's quite good, and fun to use. Sand isn't really a problem to most people I think because we all have been raised in an environment where sand dominated, with Ttar being dominant in every gen before now realistically. Some things like Landorus and Terrakion have done really crazily overpowered sweeps to my team that make me question their OU status, but besides those and exca(which is easy to counter nowadays), sand isnt something I care for.
Rain is one I would quite enjoy gone from this metagame however. I hate rain. All it ends up is some SWSW mon wrecking you without a chance to fight back (smogon's been down so playing on PO), and hydro pump spamming that just kills everything. It's idiotic. Rain still gives people problems after the swsw+drizzle ban but it's a monster that won't stop. Something needs to be done about it IMO. I hate rain.
Otherwise, weather clause would be nice.
I've been laddering up recently higher than I've gone before, in the 1100-1200s, and I've gotten to know weather a bit better. It's so overcentralized that every other team is a copypaste sand rain or sun(lol) team, and it's just not fun to play in an environment where I'm constantly fighting the same thing game after game. It gets so boring. I can say one good thing about all this gen 5 weather nonsense though, is that it's so overcentralized that it has become extremely predictable, and predictable sets are easier to take out. Sun has NEVER been a problem for me, god help the fool that gives my chandelure a FF boost and I sweep them. Sun is pretty fun to play against, as it's not stupidly broken like rain/some sandstorm. And their own boosted fire moves hurt them, so just run someone with fire attacks and its easy. Hail prolly wont ever see the light in OU, but in UU it's quite good, and fun to use. Sand isn't really a problem to most people I think because we all have been raised in an environment where sand dominated, with Ttar being dominant in every gen before now realistically. Some things like Landorus and Terrakion have done really crazily overpowered sweeps to my team that make me question their OU status, but besides those and exca(which is easy to counter nowadays), sand isnt something I care for.
Rain is one I would quite enjoy gone from this metagame however. I hate rain. All it ends up is some SWSW mon wrecking you without a chance to fight back (smogon's been down so playing on PO), and hydro pump spamming that just kills everything. It's idiotic. Rain still gives people problems after the swsw+drizzle ban but it's a monster that won't stop. Something needs to be done about it IMO. I hate rain.
A clear skies tier would mean that instead of ~50% of OU teams being weather-based, it would be 99%, because then all non-weather teams would simply opt to playing on clear skies. Perma-weather clause sounds lovely, since weather is so abused and it would be nice to play without it sometimes; However, weather is too big to avoid to make a seperate tier for it. Just like a counter for SkarmBliss was made, people will learn how to creatively counter weather. Suggesting a clear skies tier is like suggesting a non-stealth rock tier.
Yes I still would I just wouldn't use my one weather team which I barely ever use anyway.
Counter rain isn't difficult: ScarfZapdos with Thunder! For sand there's Conkeldurr, for sunny is simple to win with a scarfer sweeper with a Fire move and one Ground, and hail sucks.
The point is: PO is good because you'll find good strategy, find a way to counter, or use it, you find your style and you try to create the best team possible. What's the sense when in 10 battles you fight vs 7-8 team sand or rain that are exactly the same?
Sorry for the bad english lol
The point is: PO is good because you'll find good strategy, find a way to counter, or use it, you find your style and you try to create the best team possible. What's the sense when in 10 battles you fight vs 7-8 team sand or rain that are exactly the same?
Sorry for the bad english lol
The suggestions you provide are little narrow in scope, and the best way to beat weather is with a strong, anti-weather core, like Heatran/Skarmory/Gastrodon. Furthermore, if the only solution to weather is for everyone to run Scarf Zapdos, a Conkeldurr, etc. or, indeed, any select group of pokemon, then it is obviously overcentralising. That is not to say that some pokes aren't effective against weather. Things like Rotom-W and Heatran are very effective against weather, although there are plenty of ways to apply a counter-weather strategy.
I suppose I'd still play. I mean, where else would I go for really competitive pokemon? It would make me a bit sad though. Sand and Rain are pretty broken (Sand's a bit more broken IMO, but that's neither here nor there). I suppose I wouldn't have a huge problem with them leaving. I'd be pretty sad about Sun and Hail though. Hail is rarely used, and even when it is, it isn't broken. It's basically just a stall team variant 90% of the time from what I've experienced. Sun is used a bit more, and can be pretty solid, but not broken I think. Sun has almost as much potential to hurt its team as it does to help it. Plus, you have to dedicate yourself to running a minimum of one to two SR weak pokemon.
Too bad "overcentralization" isn't even a word.
I'd LOVE a Clear Skies tier...really need to work on that name though as Clear Skies is just the Japanese Sunny Day. It would give us a taste of "what if." The point of this whole banning system is to create a desirable metagame. But we have no way of knowing if banning weather would make the metagame better or worse.
I am all for a Clear Skies tier testing period. Keep the tier around for 2 months, remove it for a month, then when the next Suspect Voting Period comes around, if weather stays after we all get a taste of a world without perma-weather, then we have no real reason to complain anymore.
I know that no matter what happened I would continue to play Smogon OU simply because it offers the most competition.
However, the whole "Clear Skies Tier" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It seems to me to completely undermine the whole idea of suspect testing. What justification is there to create a tier for the people who don't like weather? The whole point of the suspect process is to create a desirable metagame. How can we do that if we have a separate tier for weatherless play?
It seems to me that many of the arguments for a banning/creation of Weather Clause/Clear Skies Tier is mainly because people don't like playing with weather because it "overcentrilizes". Should we take the top 5 pokemon based on usage and ban them because they "overcentralize the metagame"? Of course not, that doesn't make sense at all. Smogon doesn't ban based on popularity, it bans because stuff is broken. Is Hail broken? No. Is Sun broken? Most likely not. The only real weathers that may be broken are Sand and Drizzle, and that really is just a matter of opinion. Is it fair to throw out weathers that aren't broken just because another weather might be broken?
Instead of banning the weather, the suspect test voters are banning the abusers, i.e Swift Swim+Drizzle, Garchomp, etc. I think that the real problem isn't weather, but it's the abusers that break the metagame.
Feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong.
However, the whole "Clear Skies Tier" doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It seems to me to completely undermine the whole idea of suspect testing. What justification is there to create a tier for the people who don't like weather? The whole point of the suspect process is to create a desirable metagame. How can we do that if we have a separate tier for weatherless play?
It seems to me that many of the arguments for a banning/creation of Weather Clause/Clear Skies Tier is mainly because people don't like playing with weather because it "overcentrilizes". Should we take the top 5 pokemon based on usage and ban them because they "overcentralize the metagame"? Of course not, that doesn't make sense at all. Smogon doesn't ban based on popularity, it bans because stuff is broken. Is Hail broken? No. Is Sun broken? Most likely not. The only real weathers that may be broken are Sand and Drizzle, and that really is just a matter of opinion. Is it fair to throw out weathers that aren't broken just because another weather might be broken?
Instead of banning the weather, the suspect test voters are banning the abusers, i.e Swift Swim+Drizzle, Garchomp, etc. I think that the real problem isn't weather, but it's the abusers that break the metagame.
Feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong.
I like the idea of a perma-weather clause, but still allowing weather creating moves. I think the main problem is that playing a weather team has little drawbacks and huge benefits. While it's just a small change, perhaps the drawback of having to use a turn to start your weather and it not being permanent would be enough to diversify the metagame. If not, maybe another small change can be made.
Playing a weather team has massive drawbacks.
You often have to use a crappy pokemon that was stuck in NU for most of fourth gen and didn't get anything new.(Except for the abilities boosting their stab attacks, but still.) Then, if you lose the weather wars, you're stuck with MORe crappy pokemon from NU that got nothing new. I mean, look at most of the swift swimmers. Without swift swim, they're not good. Same thing for the chlorophyll pokemon. The sand ones are alright on their own, but they gain the least from sandstorm, apart from excadrill, who is otherwise underwhelming as well. As for hail, it's just terrible across the board. Only the stallers are good, and even they can be beaten down with t-spikes or different weathers.
Therefore, the drawback is: Having to use crappy weather starter, and being vulnerable to loss of weather.
You often have to use a crappy pokemon that was stuck in NU for most of fourth gen and didn't get anything new.(Except for the abilities boosting their stab attacks, but still.) Then, if you lose the weather wars, you're stuck with MORe crappy pokemon from NU that got nothing new. I mean, look at most of the swift swimmers. Without swift swim, they're not good. Same thing for the chlorophyll pokemon. The sand ones are alright on their own, but they gain the least from sandstorm, apart from excadrill, who is otherwise underwhelming as well. As for hail, it's just terrible across the board. Only the stallers are good, and even they can be beaten down with t-spikes or different weathers.
Therefore, the drawback is: Having to use crappy weather starter, and being vulnerable to loss of weather.
i would stay if weather was banned. although i enjoy abusing it on my teams i can see why others would want clear skies, fucking thundurus.
Obviously not, we (or I, or whatever) are only saying that a ClearSky clause will be amazing, and all teams with Toed - Tar - Hippo - Tales - Abomasnow won't be clear sky. Is so frustrating see 90% of the battles vs Sand or Rain...
Weather isn't that great because it can be beaten by other people who also use weather? Do you see the problem here? What about people who don't use weather? I'm only playing devil's advocate here because this doesn't seem too well thought out.
Sorry, but while weather is used a lot, it is not in 90% of battles. Take a look at the usage stats if you don't believe me. While I understand that this clause would make some people happy, I just don't see why it should be implemented. You might as well create a tier for people who don't like entry hazards. Why should a clause be implemented just because it makes a certain group happy?
You don't need to play weather to run a single weather move on a pokemon. A good example is a warstory i saw where someone ran hail on tentacruel, which works because tentacruel's fourth moveslot is generally filler.
Granted, some pokemon need their moveslots, and it might seem a little stupid to waste a moveslot just to counter weather teams. But running that one moveslot can kill entire teams. Not only that, but if the enemy assumes you have no weather starter, they'll probably just sac their weather user, and then all you have to do is use a move and you've raped their entire team.
Not to mention, hippowdon is a kickass wall and SR user, and tyranitar is incredible at a multitude of things, and has like 5 extremely powerful and viable sets. You don't have to run weather sweepers and make your whole team weather-based if you include a sand streamer.
I think the clause should be implimented for just that reason; it makes a cirtain group happy. Again, reference Item Clause for a compairison; a lot of people like to load their pokes up with leftovers and life orbs, choice items/focus sashs when applicable. Some people like me and the people I play with like the idea of Item Clause because it limits the use of these and promotes more obscure items. It makes you think, and it's 100% optional. You're at a disadvantage if you're playing someone who isn't using Item Clause, but sometimes that's the fun. It's not like you're breaking the game, just putting what would otherwise be an agreement or disclaimer between players into an official term.
Like I said in my original post in this thread, the whole point of the suspect process is to create a desirable metagame. How can we do that if we have a separate tier for weatherless play for people just because they don't like weather? You might as well create a tier for people who don't like entry hazards. The goal is not to make people happy, it is to create a desirable metagame that is fun and fair to play in. I don't see how banning perma-weather helps reach this goal.
There is also the fact that creating a Weatherless tier will screw up the suspect testing process, as any attempt to legitimately ban weather will be derailed by people saying "but we already have a Weatherless tier!"
Creating new tiers to satisfy fringe bits of the population simply isn't worthwhile. The Weatherless tier will never have a legitimate Suspect Testing system and therefore won't be able to cope with whatever new threats arise from a weatherless metagame. Furthermore, having a Weatherless tier would split the player faction to the point of which anyone who runs weatherless teams to the point of excluding any weather will go to Weatherless, making OU even more filled with weather. This will skew dramatically any attempt at looking at usage and will further interfere with the Suspect Testing process.
Sorry, but there was never going to be tiers to cater to everyone's individual idea of the perfect metagame, and for Smogon's sake I hope that never happens.
Creating new tiers to satisfy fringe bits of the population simply isn't worthwhile. The Weatherless tier will never have a legitimate Suspect Testing system and therefore won't be able to cope with whatever new threats arise from a weatherless metagame. Furthermore, having a Weatherless tier would split the player faction to the point of which anyone who runs weatherless teams to the point of excluding any weather will go to Weatherless, making OU even more filled with weather. This will skew dramatically any attempt at looking at usage and will further interfere with the Suspect Testing process.
Sorry, but there was never going to be tiers to cater to everyone's individual idea of the perfect metagame, and for Smogon's sake I hope that never happens.
Can I have a tier that excludes all Dragons, Steels, Waters with over 100 in either Defense stat, Rock/Dark-types, the moves Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, U-turn, Volt Switch, Softboiled/Recover/Roost/Morning Sun/Heal Order/Moonlight/Synthesis/Leech Seed, Extremespeed, Protect, Spore, Smeargle in general, Ground-types with an Attack of over 100, Levitating Pokémon, Choice Scarf, and Eviolite..? Who else agrees with me? Because this is going to happen someday, trust me.
And that is my entire point.
People want a weatherless tier - it'll just keep getting worse if one is created, since people will likely use the argument "We made a new tier that excludes weather, so why not make a tier that excludes ______?" to ask for an unrealistic tier to be created.
Oh and, before you say that this won't happen, remember Smogon's policy on complex-bans - they say it'd create a "slippery slope" even though it really wouldn't, but hey, I'll accept that for now
To below - I know my opinion largely doesn't matter, but although a weatherless tier sounds like a good idea at first, I just want people to know that I'm against it too. Every vote counts.