Announcement Pre-OMPL XIV Thread

[ghostlike]

I really dont understand why people are seriously considering what to replace AAA2 with because I dont see any strong arguments for why it should be replaced to begin with. Imo, because this is a tournament, only the opinion of players should matter and thus, I think there are only 2 valid arguments on why we should replace AAA2:
1. There are overwhelming support for an inclusion of another tier which at this point I havent seen. All Ive seen is just people throwing around ideas on what would be the second best option if we replace AAA2.
2. Players genuinely dont enjoy playing AAA2 for some reasons which would result in not enough sign up to fill both AAA slots which I think is very unlikely.
Speaking from personal experience, I really enjoy the second AAA slot. My first OMPL was an awful experience because I got drafted to the same team as Atha and ended up not getting to play AAA. I would like to think that there are others like me who would just like to play their main tier and AAA just has the most mainers out of every OM.

(Obligatory Camo glaze since Im on the council but dont even consider replacing AAA2 in the first place)

 

[Dunfan]

Inh
- Greybaum points
For elaboration
- Tier hasn’t been able to progress notably since PL XI
- Lacks mains, of Inh players in OMCL Don is the Inh main while a lot of other names are highly competed to be slotted elsewhere. Even with people who didn’t sign up the number is still well below 8 and ideally you have 10+ to feel safer
Also pinging relevant people here for posts of thoughts Don Vascus Dunfan CoolTrainerGary Schpoonman

I think it's important that Inh stays in OMPL because that's how the metagame develops.
Like, this is thanks to it that we found out MG Clefable!Primarina was so good and that Roaring Moon was too much. We've currently got a bunch of stuff in the watchlist we want to deal with (eg. Comfey/Triage and Urshifu-R that scored pretty high in the last surveys, but also possibly Gholdengo/Annihilape and Ogerpon-Hearthflame). Couldn't do it without OMotM, hence the slow pace... but now, OMPL lets us finally make that progress, hence why I think it's important.

 

[UT]

Another point for the PokeAAA agenda: it now has a perma ladder: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-future-of-pokebilities-aaa.3780065/ (has anyone told aim yet?)

I do feel perma ladders are important for OMPL metas, as they dramatically increase accessibility, tiering, and team testing. It’s obviously not 100% required (see PiC), which is also why I favor AAA2 over the alternatives, but I do think it’s a legitimate and significant consideration and am hyped PokeAAA has this achievement regardless.

 

[Ducky]

no shade to ommpl but ompl is the big dog here and its needs should take priority: if pokebilities aaa is the hypest/most popular/most competitive choice, overlapping with ommpl should not be reason to not choose it. ompl is one of the longest running tournaments on this site, one of the very first subforum pls, and imo still the most prestigious oms tournament besides maybe circuit playoffs. we should respect that legacy by making it as good as it can be.

ommpl is something that Clas and I first talked about all the way back in gen8, but our discussions always ended with the same sentiment: what mashup is popular enough to get people to sign up?

Now, almost 4 years later, we have enough popular mashups to finally have ommpl.
im not involved in mashups leadership anymore, but I have no doubt that people worked really hard for the what im pretty sure is the first ever mashups only team tour.

seeing the popularity pokeaaa has gotten has mad me so happy and im truly sorry if anything I say sounds ungrateful.

mashups have always lived in the shadow of oms for mostly obvious reasons, but I think it would be a shame if OMMpl gets over-shadowed by OMpl due to a OMM becoming popular.

if people want to see PokeAAA in a team tour that badly, go sign up for it in ommpl. seems like a simple solution to me
the popularity of PokeAAA should be used to show how awesome mashups can be and spotlight the awesome and dedicated community. taking away from the hype of ommpl would be doing the opposite

 

[vnmmv]

Speaking of permaladders…

I am pleased to see that Chessking mentioned Shared Power. In last year’s thread, SP was not mentioned at all. The meta is generally dismissed out of hand for OMPL inclusion, but I think that it’s in a stronger state than other years. SP merits a closer look because of its active ladder and active tiering.

The Good:

• Shared Power’s meta is actively played and developed. The ladder averaged 7209 games per month over the last year, and 4499 per month over the last three months. For comparison, mnm averaged 5947 and 5781 respectively. That ladder size is not crazy but it’s decently sized for an OM. Those continuous plays contribute to the continuous development of the meta.
• Shared Power is actively tiered and has suspect tests. Suspects are more conducive to a healthy meta than quickbans, in my opinion. I’m glad that the SP community has enough activity to support these tests. We banned Zamazenta, suspected Harvest, and banned Sturdy within the last year. The Sturdy ban was mainly in response to ladder trends, but also this awful OMCL game that some people may remember. Without Sturdy, berry teams have to play more proactively. Games like that one should be much rarer going forwards. The Sturdy ban was recent, but early impressions of the new meta look good to my eye.
• SP has good resources and is as easy to pick up as it has ever been. The sample teams are generally good, we revamped the VR, and Bobsican wrote this awesome team building guide.
• The matchup-fishing reputation of the meta is a little overblown. The banlist is enormous these days and reins in the matchup variance. For the first time in a while, it’s possible to build highly consistent teams outside of stall or HO, like this one, this one, or this one. Zamazenta and Sturdy were both major matchup fish elements that are gone now. Technician’s restriction was over a year ago now. It is still worth mentioning since it hugely reduced priority spam, which was the root of much of the matchup fishing.
• Vibes-based analysis warning: I think SP has gone through a cultural shift away from being a funny combos ladder and more towards competitive endeavors. By taking the meta seriously, we are creating a serious meta. Finnaggann in particular has been a shot in the arm for defensive teams and raised the bar for builders. OMCL helped Goldbanker27 and me develop new ideas in a competitive setting. It also inspired Rarh2 to integrate SP into another side tournament. SP has had virtually zero tour games in the past, so that development is worth noting.

The Bad:

• Shared Power has little prior representation in tours. OMCL was the first SP-related tour, at least that I’ve seen in the last three years or so. Shared Power did not field many mains during OMCL. Goldbanker and I were the only signups. Talking in OMcord, it seems like there’s more interest in signing up for a potential OMPL slot. But still, fielding eight mains would be a challenge. I happen to think highly of the people who expressed interest, but I am not deeply integrated with tours either. It’s a case of someone you barely know assuring you that some other people that you also don’t know are actually good at the game, trust me bro. Bobsican is pretty well-known, at least.
• SP has restrictions, which seemed to make spectating confusing for people during OMCL.
• The matchup elements are not completely gone from SP. The meta’s premise makes it hard to iron them all out. Balance teams are viable but still more difficult to build than other archetypes.
• Stall is really good right now, and that's not always fun to watch.

I don’t really expect to see Shared Power in OMPL. SP’s strengths are its permaladder, active tiering, and solid resources. Setting my bias aside, an AAA2 slot has all of those, plus a huge tour player base. Other OMCL metas also offer similar benefits to SP. But I hope that people will at least keep SP in mind as an option, if not for this year then maybe some time next gen.

 

[Siamato]

The choice of replacing AAA2 by any meta is a question of direction before anything else.

I) What's OMPL already?

Well, you guys knows about that pretty sure but I meant, historically, what defines OMPL?

Historically, there wasn't as many OMs as there are now and they didn't have a "real" identity beside being "non-official" format. OMPL was a tournament promoting most popular OMs, somehow regardless of their competitivity as classifying that at this time would have been difficult. At that time, OMPL had 6 metas, AAA, AG, BH, Monotype, STABmons and Tier Shift. We just stacked together those non-official formats that were decently popular in order to build a tour that could work.

During gen7 and gen8, OMPL changed. OMs progressively achieved a real identity ; excluding metas like AG or Monotype while growing a lot.

This growth didn't result in more diversity immediately as, by the end of gen7, OMPL still had 6 metas ; though differents. We had to wait till the very end of gen8 for OMPL to update from 6 to 8 playable metas. Indeed, there was a urge to make it bigger to accomodate for the continued growth of OMs as a whole but also to adapt to the rise of new popular meta like Godly Gift or PIC at that time.

In the mean time, OMPL built an identity of "elite" tournament within the OM world as players were drafted during auctions. This was also due to the other "big" team tournament, OMWC, being heavily unbalanced (super strong teams stacking good players vs teams barely meeting the requirements). OMPL had to stand out as the competitive showcase of OMs.


If the previous section showed that, historically, OMPL evolved a lot, it seems like the current trend is to reach a format as stable as possible. While this is ofc great to ensure stability over time, OMs, on the other hand, didn't stop evolving. Godly Gift golden days are behind, STABmons struggles to not sink in popularity, AAA became a cannibal by taking another slot, PIC is having a hard time seducing outside of its already established and consistent community and nobody wants to play that BO3 slot we keep for entertainment. As a whole, I can't tell, being too inactive nowadays, wether or not OMs keep growing, are stagnating or entered recession.

What's certain is that we reached a point were we want to keep 8 slots for scalibility reasons which is fair but without good contenders for any slot. That was already the case when OMPL became a 8 slots tournaments so, nothing new in fact. The issue didn't change much.

The question is then:

II) What OM community wants OMPL to be now?

The most competitive tournament as possible?​

​

With the creation of OMCL, finally promotting overshadowed meta, the concern to make OMPL as diversified (in terms of meta) as possible has fallen. This is the idendity of OMCL to promote diversity while staying quite a competitive tournament. OMPL could stand out as being the ultimate competitiveness showcase of OMs.

In order to maximize competitiveness, here is the solution:

Keep AAA2.
+ One of the most competitive OM if not the most, having a very developped meta.
+ A large enough playerbase to ensure only good players will enter the tournament, even with 2 slots.
- Takes 2 slots, cannibalizing other OMs that could shine.
- Being kind of fully developped metagame cuz, at least to me, it now feels a bit boring (especially since the last tournament, AAALT, featured more stall than ever). (I can't see 7 games of same stuff + Ghostlike's game each week lol. Joking ofc)

Simply cuz nothing matches AAA2 in terms of competitiveness.

Keep BO3.
+ OM Circuit vibes with expected high quality games between great all arround OM players.
+ Cool to spectate ig.
- Very annoying and exhausting to prep for if serious. The player has to build 3 teams, run multiple tests. Sometimes the slot cannot do that by itself so it became a burden for other slots. Lead to tour burnout much faster than other slots imo.
- Not much diversity again as we have one more BH, MnM and GG/STAB? Speaking of the last BO3 slot, it's not even defined which is better (with AAA in BO3 this issue doesn't exist).
- Finding a slot might be difficult as they aren't many good BO3 slots playing those 3 metas ; especially with BH being highly divisive.

The "if ain't broke, don't fix it" conservative choice.

Keeping competitiveness while increasing diversity?​

That's what OMPL tried to do in the past. 8 differents slots. Picking meta regarding both their competitivenes and their popularity.

Several options ordered by preference while trying to stay objective.

1. Remove AAA2 by Camomons.
   + While not having a perma ladder, Camo still reached a pretty decently developped and balanced metagame ensuring competitivess.
   + Theoretically enough players to accomodate the slot (see OMCL popularity). Somehow close to OU too so a non-mainer might work.
   + Very good resources for such a "rather small" meta.
   - + Failed to stay in OMPL in the past but, this also means there was a precedent having it as an OMPL meta.
   - Could still be the "ugly duckling" being seen as less competititive (less developped and less very good players) and less popular.
   - Greybaum mentionned sleep clause should be replaced by sleep moves clause. The other point of "keeping track of 24 types" has not been an issue for players but ig it is for audience. Maybe camo could be coded another way so we keep the interesting part of type reveal through the game (no type preview) while keeping them displayed once they were revealed?
   
   
2. Remove AAA2 by Formemons.
   + Close from the Ubers playerbase bringing in new blood?
   + Related to the above point, easy to find 8 slots cuz not need for a real main. Good OMCL popularity.
   + Good resources tbh.
   - Lower competitiveness with respect to some meta (too offensive).
   - No real active community is backing it up?
   
   
3. Eat a whole baguette.
   
   
4. Any other meta* like Inheritance or Shared Power. Those metas have very poor representation within the OM community (SP is very popular on PS but this doesn't result in a "tour popularity" there ; probably due to competitivess and enjoyment issues though people really likes the concept). Keeping ORAS PH out cuz competitiveness doesn't feel great for a tour trying to select highly competitive meta.

BO3 update: AAA comes back in BO3 making it AAA/BH/MnM, the big3 again, without having to decide which is less/more popular/competitive between GG and STAB.

This format is kind of optimal is terms of ratio between competitivess and diversity. The issue is that it's not super stable over time cuz we know the "last" OMPL slot always had issues, sometimes in terms of competitivess, sometimes in terms of popularity. For a long time I believed this was solely due to OMs staff not granting this ugly duckling meta the same chance as the other, without ladd, without circuit but, in practise, having those ain't a real sign of popularity or competitiveness as metas have their "intrisic popularity and competitivess. A meta can feel good and being promoted by leadership but still stuggle (see GG and somehow STAB the whole gen, highly promoted yet not "so" popular). We can't force people to like a meta because it feels good for us in terms of diversity and competitiveness.
However, were OMPL really that stable over time up to now? Does it absolutely have to be?

*What's about PokeAAA? I think OMM should not be part of OMPL simply by virtue of one of them being very popular. OMM grew enough that they now have their own PL and there is no reason to set a precedent of an OM x OMM cross over. OMs alone have a big enough playerbase and a BIG ENOUGH set of metas waiting to ever see the sunlight/the sunlight again to accomodate 8 slots without one of them being taken away by an OMM. AAA is already cannibalizing a slot after all, no need for an OMM to take away OMPL's diversity lol.

OMCL like?​

Finally, choose that OMPL doesn't need to be as competitive as possible but should rather try to promote other metas in order to develop them without stagnating over the same meta over and over again.

Remove AAA2, remove BO3.

Pick 2 from: Camomons, Formemons, Inheritance, Shared Power, Pure Hackmons, any meta feeling popular and competitive enough to fill their slot with 8 players.

+ Diversity. There are so many OMs nowadays, yet, we keep focusing almost everything on 5 of them (thanks god there's OMCL now).
- Less competitive with respect to AAA2 and BO3.
- Some good AAA main might go undrafted due to AAA2 removal while no possibility to move an AAA main being also an overall main to BO3 to keep the AAA slot open for another player.

AAAbilities over AAA2 might be a possibility if I'm the only one who dislikes bringing an OMM in an OM tournament due to coherence issues. This somehow keeps 2 "AAA-like" slot while promoting another meta.

The experimental choice promoting diversity to keep trying to touch as many people as possible.


It's not only a question of which meta is best compared to another, trying to promote our heart metas by glorifying them while putting others down with bais, it's a question of what you guys want OMPL to be. Once this has been settled, half the job would have been done.

Camo
+ least criticisms
- Greybaum points (SCM, viewing experience)
I would like to see posts here from any active mains about the tier though pinging council and some talkative mains ive seen @Smallsmallrose @Karl Dude Guy @ghostlike @SammyCe123 @Siamato @Mossy Sandwich, also doubles as an interest gauge because grey's list depends on actual signups.

The old man I am was shamelessly pinned so I'll answer. Trying to list relevant points for you while trying to keep them from personal bias:

Current state: Mostly sleeping (games and reasearch happen through discord and dailies)
Camo has been stagnating since OMCL, without much posts or development. I believe this is the case for some other metas like Formemons or Inheritance.
Sources: I know my stuff

Raw competitiveness: Quite good.
The tier still feels in a good shape competitively speaking considering how "advanced" is its development and how "often" the best player seemed to win in OMCL (bar crazy haxx memories we have).
Sources: OMCL

Competitiveness while taking account the playerbase: Hard to tell.
Camo players like SammyCe123, Ghostlike, Mossy Sandwich, jb291 or atha are obviously super good and among the best OMs players for sure. However, again, they aren't expected to start camo, not for the whole tour at least. Then there are players like damflame, smallsmallrose, clas, anaconja, rofna, etc that can also play camo at a pretty decent level but ofc you won't reach the competitiveness (in terms of level of players) of meta like AAA, BH or MnM.
Sources: You know those names and you know they are playing camo.

Playerbase: Limited
Camo, like most OMs, mainly comes back to life when it wins OMotM or is the LCotM. If Camo keeps some activity during those cryogenic period, it's still hard to build a consistent playerbase under those conditions. Camo can fill 8 viable slots without too much trouble, even taking into account some mainers might play something else, but finding decent subs is gonna be difficult.
Sources: Greybaum did the hard work of counting and I trust him

Interest: dunno
Very hard to tell. Will people playing during OMCL come back? Will mainers play camo rather than another main? Will camo attract new players while not being so popular in PS?
Sources: this thread showed some support tbh. Some people told they will/could play if camo is around.

Easy to pick up? Rather yes.
Camomons has a lot of resources quite up to date and with an update planned any time soon. The concept is easy to understand. Some time might be needed to master it in-game though (keeping types in mind, predicting possible typing before the mon is sent, etc).
Sources: Camo thread + trust me

Diversity of the meta: Good
If balance seems to dominate, many playstyles were seen during OMCL. From weather and terrain offense to stall with a lot of bulky balanced and a few BO in the middle, Camo is quite a diverse meta. There is still room for exploration considering the development is probably not over.
Sources: Camo stats, my memories

Watchability: Not the best
Camomons is a rather balanced metagame, relying often on tactical positionning gameplans (boots removal, hazards, regen wear down, etc). Because Camomons is quite balanced, the dynamic is rather slow meaning games can be a bit long and boring to watch ig.
Sources: idk, it's very subjective

Don't make me do this ever again, I'm supposed to have a life :sob:

 

[Schpoonman]

I think any tour that can host its own PL doesn't need extra representation in a group setting beyond player choice, or if we were lacking enough metagames to fully field teams. Putting the most competitive or popular OMs in the BO3 feels like the best place for mandatory double representation, letting OMs that can't field such large tours on their own get a spot at the big kids' table. I don't know if I'd say that's a hard rule, but AAA has its own subforum, I think we can let something like the last year's best performing OM that's not already a locked slot get a turn in PL before we repeat metagames.

I think Inheritance had some good games 2 years ago and in CL last year, but has definitely been stagnant. At the same time, tours are historically good for tier development and these discussions could be a shot in the arm for any tier leader to take a look before PL (*coughDragapultnowthatSheerForceisgonecough*). Siamoto does make a good point that now we have OMCL for people to pick the metas they most specialize in, not just our most competitive or popular ones, but I think that's most a point against Inheritance for the time being, and a chance for a more active OM like Camo, ABC, or Forme to get a chance.