Announcement PU General Rules, Tiering, and Announcements Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
September SS PU Beta Council Vote #2

The council voted on 6 Pokemon. More than 60% was needed to ban each Pokemon and that comes out to 5/8 votes.
Klinklang: 5 PUBL / 3 PU
Bouffalant: 5 PUBL / 2 PU / 1 Abstain
Throh: 2 PUBL / 6 PU
Lilligant: 4 PUBL / 3 PU / 1 Abstain
Liepard: 2 PUBL / 5 PU / 1 Abstain
Lurantis: 8 PU

Klinklang and Bouffalant are banned from PU. Kris could you implement this pretty please.
You can view votes here on the sheet, although for future votes we'll be shifting to a better format to accommodate how much people write now. I tried to color code this to make it a bit easier to parse.
 

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
October SS PU Beta Council Vote- PUBL Unbans Edition

The council voted on every single Pokemon in PUBL. More than a 60% majority was needed to unban each Pokemon, or 5/8 votes.

Bouffalant, Exeggutor, Klinklang, Kangaskhan, Silvally-Poison, and Silvally-Bug are unbanned from PUBL. Kris please.
Last time I said we'd stop using a sheet but it was the easiest way to have a more active discussion about how we felt about unbans so soon after the shift so we still did it. Here it is.
 

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
Here are the much anticipated votes for the first October quickban slate. A vote of 5/7 was needed to ban any of the drops, I did not participate in those votes because I've been pretty sick and didn't play enough. We also included an unban Perrserker vote since there was a lot of contention about our decision to not try to free it, which required 5/8 votes to free. As a reminder, the rotating council stuff will kick in next time.

:ss/Sawk: 7/7 Banned
HJAD: Ban. Incredibly efficient breaker, able to manipulate its way past offensive pressure, checks are not good enough. this is probably beaten into the ground.

2xTheTap: Ban. Sawk's power and coverage alone is enough for it to bypass most of the tier's Fighting resists with correct prediction, but to add to this, it's uncomfortably fast for how strong it is. This combination of passable bulk, insane breaking power, and decent Speed means all team archetypes are hard-pressed to produce reliable counterplay for it, and so one Fighting check is rarely enough when accounting for Sawk in the builder. Sturdy being easy to keep in tact with Heavy-Duty Boots and/or Healing Wish support lets Sawk break offensive teams quite easily, while on the other hand, its CB or BU sets destroy slower, more defensively-inclined teams.

Sam I Yam: Ban. Don’t think this is controversial but this mon is way too good for the tier. It has a fantastic speed tier, attack stat, ability and stab move to spam. Boots allow it to revenge kill anything.

tlenit1: Ban, way too powerfull with its versatile movepool. Boots+sturdy lets it RK anything and isnt that prediction realiant as choice locked sets.

termi: Ban. Its raw power and coverage force you to run two fighting resists per team and then it can still break through them. Choiced sets are already irritating enough because of this, but Sturdy Boots sets are also perfectly viable and, although not as strong as CB, this set still breaks most of the meta pretty easily without having to predict a whole lot.

Specs: Ban. Has little to no defensive counterplay. Sawk is on another level of power between CB and perfect coverage. Any hope of revenge killing comes down to being faster, and nothing faster can ever switch in. Busted.

soulgazer: Ban. Sturdy + Heavy-Duty Boots is an amazing revenge-killer akin to HDB Sturdy Crustle and Focus Sash Kadabra, Scarf Mold Breaker is an incredible Choice Scarf user with barely any answers, and I don't think I need to bring up how tremendously strong its Choice Band set is with one of Sturdy or Mold Breaker. It even has access to Inner Focus to make it not get flinch by a Kangaskhan's Fake Out and to ignore Intimidate, which I feel hasn't been explored enough. Combination of its power, coverage, speed tier and decent bulk makes it too much for the tier in its current state.


:ss/Galvantula: 7/7 Banned
HJAD: Ban. An incredibly powerful pivot that is extremely fast. bug / elec doesn't have any real resists in this tier and access to webs at any given moment adds to the matchup factor. again, probably not even worth explaining.

2xTheTap: Ban. Galvantula is a bit too fast for how strong it is, and this is super hard to pin down and force to eat chip when it's running Boots + Volt Switch, without resorting to a scarfer or one of the few Pokemon naturally faster than Galvantula, like Boltund or Dugtrio-A (and this is assuming Sticky Web has not been set). Most Electric-immune Pokemon really struggle vs Galvantula, with some combination of Energy Ball and Bug Buzz beating most of them. Counterplay for this is pretty minimal, so a ban is well-deserved here.

Sam I Yam: Ban. Stupid fast for the amount of punch it backs. Forces stuff like type:null to become a staple because that’s the only thing that can avoid getting 3hko’d and doesn’t care about para. Beats all elec immunities other than emolga.

tlenit1: Ban, 3atk+filler goes through pretty much everything. Webs is just icing on the cake to support other team mates. Only stab resist we have for this is like emolga and well, emolga is poop

termi: Ban. Amazing speed tier, STAB Volt Switch, ability to break most electric immunities, and access to Webs combine to make this mon way too overwhelming. Boots is extremely difficult to punish because of how much more freely it can click Volt Switch compared to other Electric types and it generally lacks counterplay that isn't passive as hell, making it very easy for it to nab momentum vs balance teams and almost impossible to deal with for offensive teams that can't afford to run passive things like Type Null. I also heavily dislike how its access to Webs and ability to threaten most forms of hazard removal makes it way easier to keep webs up, forcing you to run Boots on basically anything that is grounded and needs its speed to be functional.

Specs: Ban. Galvantula is quite tough to maneuver around. We have a select few Spdef walls/tanks that can take Thunders and Bug Buzz's well, but they're also very exploitable or lose over time. Null takes every hit with ease, but it's too reliant on Eviolite if Volt Switch is clicked you're just boned. Spdef Throh can take hits similarly well, but if it wants to be a long term check it'll be forced to rest and be put in a bad spot. If Galvantula didn't have a way to hit all the grounds, I don't think it would be nearly as stupid. It simply chunks everything with it's dual stab, and hits all the volt immunes way too hard. Any defensive check doesn't actually beat it because you can never reliably stop Volt switch. Overall I don't think prep for this is good enough at the moment, but maybe in the future (aka dlc stuff) we could have it back.

soulgazer: Ban. I love this Pokemon, but sadly its a bit too much. Unlike the other Sticky Webs users in the tier, it actually threatens with an OHKO a vast majority of PU's hazards removal thanks to its Bug and Electric STABs. Being a fantastic Webs setter is the cherry on top as well: It has a fantastic speed tier, sitting above Liepard and Rapidash-G, and has incredible coverage thanks to Bug Buzz, Thunder, and Energy Ball. Heavy-Duty Boots is a fantastic fast pivot with Volt Switch that is hard to chip unless you decide to trade one of your own Pokemon to put it in range of your revenge killer(s). Choice Specs sets trade survivability for the ability to 2HKO most of the tier. As much as it saddens me to say, the spider isn't healthy in the tier as it is.


:ss/Silvally-Dark: 6/7 Banned
HJAD: Ban. this is just self-explanatory, it would be incredibly hypocritical to have this in the tier and some of the other vallies not, etc + its ridiculuous anyway

2xTheTap: Ban. Silvally-Dark's ease in setting up SD and/or Flame Charge, very usable bulk, good Speed Tier, extremely spammable Multi Attack, and perfect coverage to bypass all Dark resists are all factors going toward this ban vote. Our current Dark resists are already super pressed to beat what they ought to, and at the same time, Silvally-Dark doesn't really add much defensive value to the tier, leading me to the conclusion that banning Silvally-Dark would free up teambuilding with minimal repercussion.

Sam I Yam: Ban. Dark stab + coverage for all resists. It’s above average bulk provide many opportunity to SD and/or flame charge and just steamroll over teams. Only time it doesn’t win is when it has the wrong coverage move.

tlenit1: DnB, close one, but Im down to give an extra week for darkvally. The games i have seen from it and played with it, it has the 4mss and is for now predictable in preview. Still having a close eye on this one

termi: Ban. Dark STAB is way too easy to spam and since you typically can't afford to run more than one dark resist per team whether or not you lose to this thing comes down to if it runs the right coverage move or not. There's several Silvally forms in PUBL that are less broken than this thing so clearly it has to go.

Specs: Ban. Sivally Dark is far too powerful of a breaker. Dark is a top offensive typing rn (see CB Liepard for example) and combined with the amount of options it has, nobody is safe. Psychic fangs hits Throh, and only takes a little chip to kill Rest talk outright at +2. Flamethrower hits Avalugg and Mawile (and tangela but rip :pray:), Iron Head hits Alcremie and any niche Fairy type like Shiinotic and Wiggly, Flame Charge allows it to outspeed common scarfers like Unfezant and Golduck. We've seen this story before with other Silvallys and this time is no different. You have to hope it isn't running the right coverage option for the MU, and if it is well gl hf. All in all not a big surprise that this is busted.

soulgazer: Ban. One of its best STAB that is only resisted by Fighting, Fairy, and Dark-types. Not only does it have few resists for its STAB alone, it had access to coverage for all three of them with Psychic Fangs, Iron Head, and X-Scissor or U-Turn respectively. You just need to handle one of those three types with its teammates to allow it to run Swords Dance and wreck havoc against everything slower than it. It's not frail either, meaning it doesn't die that easily. It can even drop one more coverage option and use Flame Charge to boost its speed and have a great matchup against offense.


:ss/Pincurchin: 3/7 Not Banned
HJAD: Ban. I personally think terrain support is too good for the tier. So many abusers, and added to that, given the tier has so many pokemon depending on rest (stuff like null, throh, etc), being unable to rest in terrain, pincurchin becomes the ultimate offense support don especially when u factor in the hazards element. I would definitely prefer not to have a no disadvantage rain / sun in the tier.

2xTheTap: DnB. Pincurchin is not overly passive with its ability to set entry hazards and good attacking stats, and at the same time, it brings defensive utility to the tier in the form of another Electric immunity and a strong resist with reliable recovery to Pokemon common to the meta like Unfezant and Klinklang. Unless Electric Terrain teams centered around Manectric / Jolteon / E-Seed attackers like Rapidash-G, Drifblim, etc. become too much for the tier to handle at some point in the future, this Pokemon should be able to integrate into the meta without causing too many issues.

Sam I Yam: DnB. Terrain is not unhealthy and pinc its self is fine. I see no reason to ban at this time.

tlenit1: Ban, Pincurchins ability is nuts. Not only allowing electric types to spam 182 stab rising voltage, but unburden mons to go on nascar mode by default. In teambuilder this thing gives headache as it creates 'million' threats out of nowhere.

termi: DNB. As a breaker it's too slow and lacks the kind of bulk or resistances to be seriously problematic, plus since good teams should have an Electric immunity it's reliant on prediction to do anything. I am a little wary of it as a support mon though and I may deem this broken if Electric Terrain teams get out of hand, but for now I don't think we urgently need to ban this.

Specs: Ban. We have defensive answers like Roselia and Appletun, I just wonder how you can even switch in if you don't have one of those. Stunfisk doesn't like Specs Hydro, Quagsire needs to be Spdef or Water Absorb, Sandslash same thing as Stunfisk. It'll 2 hit KO and borderline OKO everything in the tier that isn't immune or one of Rose Apple. Not sure I really want this in the tier. We have powerful breakers, but Pincurchin feels like another level.

soulgazer: DnB. I believe the Urchin is a great addition to the tier as it provides a lot of utility as an Electric-type. I haven't found Electric Terrain abusing teams to be too much in practice, and if others believe they are I would sooner ban Electric Terrain abusers than the Urchin. I even find Urchin to be an amazing counter to Electric-types by itself if you were to use its Lightning Rod ability instead, allowing your build to not rely on a Ground-type to stop the Electrics.


:ss/Cursola: 1/7 Not Banned
HJAD: Ban. Doesn't have switchins, and I don't think its necessarily fair to ask to offensively pressure it. Its fantastic spdef means that, as near as half of the tiers pokemon have absolute 0 shot at keeping up the pressure, so it makes it extremely difficult play around. It adds to the matchup factor because of this,

2xTheTap: DnB. Definitely one of the Pokemon I was on the fence for, but this is slow and frail enough on the Def side that we may be okay in keeping this for now and seeing how it plays out. Endure + Weak Armor sets are definitely a thing to factor into teambuilding when planning for it, as well as semi-TR teams with Cursola as their wincon, but I don't think this is more than the tier can handle at this time.

Sam I Yam: DnB. Good mon, but not at all too much for the tier to handle. Being vulnerable to ~half of the game’s moves along with being slow make it easy to kill before it kills you. It’s often toxic’d and has to rely on strength sap for longevity.

tlenit1: DnB, great lead mon, but thats about it as far as i have seen from it. Yes, it offers amazing SpAtk, but its not outspeeding anything by default. Creates some mindgames for sure with its endure+weakarmor, but trades itself.

termi: DNB. Not entirely convinced it's fine, definitely very difficult to switch into and I've seen it do some crazy stuff on TR teams, but on the other hand it's so slow and physically frail that I think we're good vs it for now. At least I'd like to see it in the meta for a bit longer before making a call on this one.

Specs: Do Not Ban. One of the strongest breakers in the tier no doubt, but has enough flaws to where I don't think it's too much. Bad phys def and bad speed + not the greatest typing defensively rn. All of those balance it out in my mind.

soulgazer: DnB. Slow and frail on the physical side, yet it's one, if not our strongest special attacker in the tier and a good offensive pivot to switch into special attackers. Great coverage as well. I haven't found it to be overly obnoxious quite yet and people have been mostly using the SR + Endure lead set, which by itself is great but I don't think it plays to all its strenghts. I would be open to have another vote on it if it ever gets out of hand.


:ss/Alcremie: 0/7 Not Banned
HJAD: DnB.

2xTheTap: DnB. This is a healthy addition to the tier and helps us better account for offensive behemoths like Throh. As a strong Fighting resist not too bothered by Knock Off with access to reliable recovery and coverage for anything looking to switch into its STAB, it has great utility in this meta. CM sets don't feel overbearing in practice; if Alcremie is running Aromatherapy to avoid losing to Toxic, then it will lack the coverage it needs to prevent offensive resists from switching in.

Sam I Yam: DnB. This mon is completely fine

tlenit1: DnB, gives great defensive utility, but the double dancing offensive sets are still in my radar. Havent used too much, but played against a bunch. Therefor im down to give another week for alcremie to prove itself

termi: DNB. It's just not broken at all from what I've seen, just a healthy slowish mon that can patch up balance teams and do some work as a breaker with CM or 3 attacks sets, but nothing that lacks checks or general counterplay.

Specs: Do Not Ban. One of the healthiest mons in the tier. CM sets are good at breaking but are always prone to status or not doing enough damage at +1. Offensive sets are scary but struggle to switch in on non resisted hits. It feels like builds should always have a way of dealing with Alcremie anyways. I like where this thing is at.

soulgazer: DnB. There are plenty of countermeasures to its CM sets: there is counterplay for any CM Alcremie variations, in my opinion (Unless I am missing something, let me know). I'm personally glad that we got a decent Fairy-type with recovery. Healthy addition to the tier.


:ss/Exeggutor: 1/7 Not Banned
HJAD: Ban. This is just an incredibly efficient breaker. We still don't have enough reasonable counterplay to this in the tier, but the limited counterplay we do have like klinklang and ferro, its just a matter of time before eggy breaks. having giga as a stab helps its longevity so so much, so in the occasion you are actually using a full stop, its more than capable of getting enough opportunities to muscle its way passed.

2xTheTap: DnB. Exeggutor, while extremely strong, can be easily pressured in this meta as a result of its number of weaknesses and poor Speed. There are also many faster, splashable Pokemon with the potential to OHKO Eggy like Bouffalant, Liepard, Unfezant, etc., so it may end up not picking up steam. I am keeping an eye on this one for now, especially watching for how OTR sets play out, but it feels palatable for the time being.

Sam I Yam: DnB. Tier is very well equipped to handle eggy defensively. Additionally, it’s especially hard for eggy to come in on almost anything in this meta. Knock of is everywhere, steel types are everywhere, and u-turn is everywhere.

tlenit1: DnB, great breaker as we know, but with newest steel ferroseed it seems to be in leash for now (not to mention other spdef mons like flareon, klang).

termi: DNB. Just haven't really seen it enough, STABs remain scary in a meta with few Steel types but the meta doesn't seem overly favorable to it. Could be broken, but I just can't tell yet.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Ngl haven't seen much of this since tier shifts but there is enough offensive pressure atm that it isn't the scary breaker it was back in the day. Could easily change soon but between offensive pressure and a horrible defensive typing eggy can only come in on so much.

soulgazer: DnB. We have got more options to handle it now both defensively and offensively. It is obviously not a bad Pokemon in the tier either, but I don't find it to be obnoxiously strong.


:ss/Kangaskhan: 0/7 Not Banned
HJAD: DnB.

2xTheTap: DnB. Kangaskhan is extremely potent, but there are more defensive checks to this than when it first landed in SwSh PU. We now have Avalugg, Runerigus (it loses Scrappy when it's replaced by Wandering Spirit, which is something important to consider), Ferroseed, and Corsola-G. It has a huge number of potential sets that should be accounted for, but I haven't seen it do anything too crazy yet.

Sam I Yam: DnB. I thought this mon was fine last time we voted, so this was not a hard decision for me this time around either. Kanga does all of its roles well, but it’s not overly efficient to extent bouff was for example. I believe the tier is well equipped to deal with kang.

tlenit1: DnB, welp... kanga does kanga things. Fake outs and follows with sucker/doubleedge and thats about it. Probs a reasoning to start using Hattrem again for kangaspikes teams, but havent seen this breaking the tier, good mon for sure

termi: DNB. Another instance of "could be broken but idk", it unfortunately lost a counter in Tangela but gained a bunch of new checks as well. Too early to say if the new counterplay is sufficient or not, so far I haven't seen Kanga do anything crazy yet though so I think it'll be fine to let it stick around for a minute.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Kangaskhan feels like an A+ breaker but without that extra oomph to push it over the edge. Kanga leads to generally more healthy meta games and I don't see this time around being any different. Great mon, nothing too over bearing right now.

soulgazer: DnB. Various physically defensive Pokemon dropped to PU alongside its unban and I believe they all do a perfect job to keep it in check for bulkier teams. Its matchup against frailer builds is obviously the main contentious point anyone may have with Kanga, esp. when used alongside Spikes and Toxic Spikes to complement its Fake Out + Sucker Punch combo, but in practice it hasn't been that obnoxious when I faced it or obnoxious for my opponents when I used it. It's obviously one of the best drops we got, but I find Kanga to be a welcoming one.


:ss/Silvally-Poison: 0/7 Not Banned
HJAD: DnB.

2xTheTap: DnB. There are significantly more resists for Silvally-Poison's Multi Attack than when it was banned, Runerigus, Dugtrio-A, Sandslash, Quagsire, etc., and at the same time, it being unbanned gives us reliable hazard removal that can answer hazard setters like Ferroseed and Roselia as well as various offensive threats like Appletun, Lilligant, Alcremie, Lurantis, etc. A Toxic Spikes absorb is also very welcome at a time when Qwilfish, Runerigus, and Pincurchin are here to set those, so Silvally-Poison's presence in the meta is beneficial.

Sam I Yam: DnB. Overall power level of tier has increased significantly since this left the tier, so relying on uninvested coverage moves like flame/ice doesn’t really cut it anymore (or atleast doesn’t push it over the edge).

tlenit1: DnB, this is definitely good add to the tier for now. We got lot of new defensive mons like ferro-quagsire, rune, qwil which forces it poisonvally to carefully pick its coverage. Good defensive typing for the tier.

termi: DNB. I would be surprised if it can still sweep teams in a meta infested with Ghost and Ground types. Don't see this being broken in this meta at all.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Feels like Silvally-Poison is in a healthy state. Tspike absorber with a great defensive typing thanks to all the grasses running around. Breaker sets are deadly but struggle to get past things like Stunfisk. Easily could get out of hand but rn action doesn't need to be taken.

soulgazer: Abstain. I have to be frank: I was quite vocal to unban this thing, but I didn't even try it out yet nor have I faced it! Midterms can be blamed for my lack of time I suppose. From what I have heard it was a good addition to current PU and I'd love to believe it to be true, but I don't think I should use my feelings alone to make a decision right now.


:ss/Silvally-Bug: 1/7 Not Banned
HJAD: Ban. We still don't have the sufficient counterplay, and bugvally is so drastically different to our current bug types that again, its never worth prepping for. Something that's this good and never worth prepping for is bound to steal matchups which I would like to avoid. Our hazards control is reliable enough such that it doesn't ever need to worry about it and a stab uturn silvally pivot hurttttsssss. I hope to not deal with 4 silvally forms as well oh god

2xTheTap: DnB. It's in an awkward place right now where there is some opportunity cost in not running a different Silvally with either a more spammable STAB (Silvally-Ice) or better defensive utility (Silvally-Poison). It's much easier to check than when it was first here, so unless that changes later on, a ban now isn't really needed.

Sam I Yam: DnB. Same thought processes as silv poison – except this ones weak to rocks and cant absorb tspikes.

tlenit1: DnB, could end up being problem with strong u-turn, but then again we do have stunfisk, ferro, quag, qwil, runerigus forcing it to pick coverage and hope for the best. Weak to rocks, so i believe it will end up being fine. Havent had time to use it, but the games played against was fine

termi: DNB. Haven't seen it yet, doesn't strike me as obviously broken (hence why I voted to unban it to begin with), if it's somehow broken after all we'll find out soon enough.

Specs: Abstain. I have 0 to go off of with this gonna be honest. Like with any vally, it can show up at some point and start breaking the tier. And with all the grasses running around that doesnt seem unlikely. But I have no experience fighting or using it in new meta.

soulgazer: DnB. Similar to Silvally-Ice thanks to its Stealth Rock weakness, but with a STAB that wishes it was as effective as Ice. I find it to even require stronger entry hazards control than Icevally because it doesn't threaten Hazards setters like Icevally can. Obviously that alone doesn't mean that it is healthy for PU in any means, but I do think that paired with the opportunity cost of using Bugvally over Rock, Ice, and Poison paired with its not-so-great offensive and defensive typing makes it so that it isn't unhealthy in my book. For anyone interested in using this thing, STAB U-turn is nice on VoltTurn teams!


:ss/Perrserker: 5/8 Unbanned
MZ: Unban. I think it will prove too much for the tier and have to go and that this is a little bit unnecessary. However it's also clear that a very large and vocal portion of our playerbase wants to try this out again and I don't think Perrserker's time here will see it completely eating teams alive and having zero counterplay as much as just being a negative presence that's really hard to reliably beat. Hope I'm wrong about it being too much and fine with giving it a shot at sticking around for now. This is the changing swing vote since last time and while I didn't find my position swayed by the arguments exactly, seeing the amount of support people have for experimenting with this and given how borderline I feel its odds of being definitely not worth trying are, I think it's a reasonable change.

HJAD: Do Not Unban. I don't even the slightest urge to keep this around the tier. Its just not feasible with our counterplay, and would genuinely ruin how the tier gets played. I wouldn't feel too angry if this actually got free'd since it would actually "help" building quite a bit by compressing so many roles, but id expect it to wreak havoc when deployed in the offensive role and for people to eventually turn on him, again.

2xTheTap: Unban. This meta is significantly different than when I originally voted to ban this; like Exeggutor, it could potentially become bannable in the right conditions as it's still very strong, but there are enough offensive checks to this that I don't feel a ban would be warranted now. The additions of Pincurchin, Qwilfish, Ferroseed, Corsola-G, etc. make it very difficult for choiced variants of Perrserker to lock into an attack safely, and the meta's gotten fast enough that CS Perrserker has a much harder time than it did claiming KOs when it was first here.

Sam I Yam: Do Not Unban. As much as I enjoy what AV sets bring to our metagame, band and SD sets are just unhealthy. I think a lot of the same reasons we banned this last time still apply. SD has the potential to break through any team, and band ignores resists. The tier is not equipped to deal with Perrserker

tlenit1: Do not Unban, whereas Klanger got defensively million new counter plays, Perrserker still goes through them: Ferro w. closecombat, Quagsire with seedbomb, Runerigus 2hkoed w. ironhead/seedbomb. Only new drop coming in is qwilfish, but thats it. Perrserkers movepool is nuts. And sure, it gives nice glue with AV set and free pivot into breaker with unblockable u-turn. Klinklang is discount perrserker and only thing it has over perrserker is speed pretty much. Physical bulk is the same and with AV perrserker ties with Klanger

termi: Unban. This might be too much for the meta but it's slow, gained some more counterplay, and might generally be more manageable in a faster and more powerful meta. I'd like to at least give it a try, especially given that many people in the community clearly want it back.

Specs: Unban. I don't think this will be the dominant breaker it once supposedly was. At the very least I'm willing to give it a chance in this new meta. We gained a couple answers, team structures are different enough, more offensive options are available. I'd like to see how steel cat does.

soulgazer: Unban. Various physically defensive Pokemon dropped to PU last week and there are other Steel-types to fight with a spot on a team, all of them offering different options for their teams. I believe that in its current state, PU can welcome Perrserker with open arms. It is strong, but its more offensive sets have to use boosting items instead of defensive ones, making it prone to losing to what it's meant to deal with defensively as a Steel-type.

I have also compiled every individual member's votes into their own paste so you can see how a specific person voted more easily.


Sawk, Galvantula, and Silvally-Dark are banned from PU. Additionally, Perrserker is unbanned from PUBL. Kris I am once again asking you to update the servers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
October SS PU Beta Council Vote #2

The council and rotating council, comprised of Ktütverde and zS, voted on 5 Pokemon. More than a 60% ban vote is needed to remove a Pokemon which comes out to at least 7/10 ban votes.

:ss/Kangaskhan: 4/10 Not Banned
MZ: Ban. This just runs the meta, we have very few switchins and even less reasonably safe ones. The Kanga user is always at a good advantage it forces a lot of prediction and switches and hard play from the opponent at incredibly little risk and the power of its set diversity is so high. Was hopeful about reintroducing this but now I don't think our tools are good enough. HJAD's reasoning also resonates with me a ton.

HJAD: Ban. Kanga is the single biggest limiting factor of the tier at the moment. Its speed in combination with attacking power (derived from CB sets) or powerful priority (hdb/silk scarf) has a massive influence on how you build for the tier, and in game neuters a lot of the fast threats which can potentially catch people off guard or is straight up unwallable thanks to scrappy dedge and its given coverage options. Banning it will also help lift the tension from building, with no natural replacement for it, meaning the games where u need to deal with an offensive normal type go from every single game to not common at all. A great ban overall for both the playability and teambuilding aspect to the tier.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. It has a ridiculous number of potential sets that allow it to bypass most (if not all) of its defensive checks, making it difficult to prep for and easily one of the best Pokemon in this meta. We saw last week in Snake CS from Xiri, Fire Punch from keppy, Toxic from tlenit, standard Kanga from TJ, and all sets were effective in doing what they were used for. At the same time however, Kangaskhan really shines in a meta wherein successful hazard removal is difficult, but with options for removal in Avalugg, Silvally-Poison, Sandslash, Cramorant, Lurantis, Hitmonchan, etc. (+ boots) being as strong as they are, Kangaskhan doesn't really clean as well as it could late-game and often needs to find its chip needed to clean some other way. That, and Pokemon like Ferroseed, Corsola-G, Avalugg, and Runerigus really stop it from being too overbearing. I was more on the fence for this one, though, and would like to revisit voting on Kangaskhan later on.

Sam I Yam: No ban. HDB kang brings a lot to the table, but it struggles to break through generally bulky mons (throh, apple) due to its mediocre damage output. Kanga spikes is big right now, but so is hazard stack in general. This makes it difficult for kang to afford to run silk scarf/band due to the massive difference in longevity.

tlenit1: Ban. Pretty much only reliable switch in in long terms is Avalugg. Runerigus comes in couple times, but has no access to reliable recovery and gets chipped. Kangas 4th slot offers a lot of variation to hit against this problematic ghost type eg. toxic, crunch, PuP into crunch etc.

termi: DNB. Undoubtedly the top offensive threat in the tier by virtue of having so much offensive utility that most teams are instantly improved by it, but I don't think that's a bad thing. While centralizing, Kangaskhan does not lack viable counterplay and its ability to serve as a threat to offense and balance at the same time w/ Fake Out sets allows it to add both speed and breaking power to balance and bulky offense teams, compressing some roles for teams that may otherwise struggle to check all the big threats and maintain offensive presence at the same time. CB or lure sets could make it more complicated to deal with, but for now I feel it's pretty healthy for the meta.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Between common defensive cores and individual mons I think this tier can handle Kangaskhan well enough at the moment. Some examples being Runerigus, Ferroseed and Corsola-Galar, and even Avalugg who got 2 uses last week in snake. Kangaskhan just doesnt strike me as being the problem with building, and that is my main concern for the tier.

soulgazer: DnB. Healthy, too many answers, and helps teams face faster builds. Good addition to the tier.

Ktütverde: Ban. Kanga is literally the definition of a broken mon. Its bulk is insane, it is quite fast, and just needs to spam double-edge to win games easily: CB kanga even 2hkos quagsire. Avalugg walls it, but needs to spam recover which is suboptimal outside of stall. Gorsola is the closest thing to a counter, but strength sap isnt reliable if the oppo has a mon with low atk; and since corsola needs to be at full especially vs CB kanga, you can guess it's not such a great answer. Kanga also loves spikes, and corsola/runerigus hate them. So not only kanga is a devastating wallbreaker, but it is also a deadly revengekiller thanks to fakeout+suckerpunch. Playing around kanga is just too hard, defensive and offensive counterplay dont really exist (stuff like specs jolteon can RK but it's easy to predict the electric move), and you just end up sacking mons that you need like qwilfish/runerigus/appletun/throh in order to kill it by double edge recoil/helmet recoil. Overall, too bulky, too fast and too strong. Just ban this.

zS: Do not Ban. It's broken on paper, it centralizes teambuilding a lot but is often pretty underwhelming ingame, lacks power and has a plenty of good and popular checks. I need to see more before joining the ban kanga train.


:ss/Exeggutor: 7/10 Banned
MZ: Ban. We don't have any good switchins, specs is incredible and splashable and super powerful and I don't honestly know what teams are meant to do other than get all the plays right always. It's got other amazing sets too but specs on its own is just pretty unfair. The concept with reintroduction was half try to give it a shot half we've got a lot more immunities and checks, and those just are not enough.

HJAD: Ban. Whilst this thing is massively underrated and underused at the moment, particularly in the tournament environment, it remains a huge burden to build against and hugely devastating outside of the ferro+kanga mu. It has the potential to annihilate any one of the balance or bulkier playstyles outside of the kangaferro mu given its dual stab and access to giga drain meaning it can stay around for long periods reasonably. Its obviously a nightmare to prepare for, and part of the reason we so many kangaferro teams. Therefore, banning it in the tier is a no brainer if you do not want the ferrospikes kanga centralisation.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Like I said in my vote for the last voting slate, Exeggutor might not be able to pick up steam in this meta due to the following: '...can easily be pressured as a result of its exploitable defensive typing and poor Speed. There are also many faster, splashable Pokemon with the potential to OHKO Eggy like Bouffalant, Liepard, Unfezant, etc...' And sure enough, we didn't see it at all this past week of Snake - a trend we may continue to see unless something changes for Exeggutor.

Sam I Yam: No ban. Eggy has developed a bit over the last 2 weeks, but I still think the tier can handle it. Steel types are at the top of the meta and seem to be dealing with this thing just fine. Everything seems to be carrying either uturn or knock off, often making it tricky to get this mon in multiple times/game. That being said, I could easily see this thing quickly becoming too much after a shift/round of bans.

tlenit1: Ban. Breaks through anything pretty much with specs set. Surely we have ferroseed and two unmons called vullaby+zweilous for it, but thats simply not enough. Offensively its checked well enough, but defensive conterplay is extremely limited.

termi: Ban. Specs Eggy still has practically no reliable defensive counterplay. As far as Steel types go, AV Perrserker and Ferroseed are easily worn down, the latter taking Specs Psychic decently well but failing to do much in return, whereas Klinklang and Mawile aren't very specially bulky and also struggle to kill Eggy - it should be noted that Eggy is pretty tanky. Other counterplay is basically limited to having a bulky Grass resist and a Psychic resist/immune - strangely hard to come by in PU atm, Rime aside - and getting 50/50s right or losing a mon. Add to this that it's not super hard to bring in and that it can throw random techs like Future Sight in the mix and yeah, I just don't see this being manageable.

Specs: Ban. Far too strong of a breaker that finds its way in a bit too often. In most match ups Exeggutor maybe has to predict once in order to weaken a check, and it's over from that point on once Exeggutor comes in again. The one splashable and viable 100% counter Ferroseed can actually lose to sub CM sets , so it also has some untapped set variety. I don't think Exeggutor brings much to the tier, and heavily restricts team building.

soulgazer: Ban. Eggy is a huge threat, there's like no reasons to not run a Choice Specs on it and requires teams to run a bunch of Protect users paired with immunes for both its STABs, which are definitely in demand... until you meet an Eggy with another item.

Ktütverde: do not ban. I admit specs eggy is sometimes stupid. However I now believe there is sufficient counterplay, and most importantly, not enough opportunities for eggy to do what a broken mon like kanga would do. Eggy is slow, and the metagame is actually not so kind to it. AV perrserker and ferroseed, the common steels, limit eggy's momentum. The only rocker eggy can abuse is stunfisk, indeed runerigus has poltergeist, Gorsola can withstand its attacks and thus scout for psychic/grass moves, sandslash has knock off and eggy hates knock off. Water types? Well cramorant just outspeeds and hurricanes. Other grasses? Gourgeist, appletun and lilligant dont let eggy in. So, we have like 2 real switches to eggy (AV perr and ferro), but also nothing that lets eggy in really (stunfisk and runerigus if you predict it wont poltergeist). Also other toptiers like poisonvally and jolteon arent threatened by eggy. So yeah, for the moment, eggy just cant do what it wants to do reliably. One last thing: "eggy is broken because it forces you to run AV per" isnt an argument, AV perr is still very good to check ices/grasses/psychics, which was something the tier lacked before the shift. It happens to check eggy quite well, that's all! I wouldnt be surprised if eggy ends up being banned at some point, but let's see what happens!

zS: Ban. Eggy is super splashable and is way too powerful for the pu metagame. If you don't run av perrserker you just can't switch into it. its solid bulk makes it even harder to deal with. The only thing that is holding it back from being absolutely broken is its weakness to U-Turn, but that's not enough to keep it in the tier in my opinion.


:ss/Perrserker: 6/10 Not Banned
MZ: Ban. CB eats teams, it mashes Iron Head and 2hkos max Defense Corsola-G after rocks, it's so easy to facilitate this mon to just run through teams. Plus it's the perfect example of something that gets the 1 super important kill or racks up 3 less important but still problematic ones. It's not quite Exeggutor but it still requires so little thought or effort to just mow through everything. Hate removing AV but CB is too much.

HJAD: Ban. Clearly unwallable and an all round stupid presence (as predicted). Ironically having stunfisk take a backseat in this meta thanks to the likes of eggy and ferro has meant this is even better practically than when we had it in the tier initially.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Perrserker is a great balance breaker with CB and SD sets being potent, but the number of times it can come in to wallbreak is limited by its poor Speed and how easy it is to chip down. Bulkier sets like AV suffer from wanting to check everything Steel-types are strong against defensively, but not really checking them well in practice: as a Normal resist, Perrserker loses to Bouffalant and Kangaskhan; as a Fairy resist, it can't really handle +1 Alcremie (ex. see TJ v keppy in Snake last week); and, as an Ice resist, it's blown back by Focus Blast from Mr. Mime-G/Rime, etc. The meta is well-equipped to deal with Perrserker, as you'll find one of Cramorant, Qwilfish, Corsola-G, Runerigus, Stunfisk, Pincurchin, etc. on just about every team. Off meta-Pokemon like Dubwool, Mareanie, Luxray are all fine checks to it, too, if you can afford to fit them.

Sam I Yam: Ban. I still think this mon is too powerful for our metagame. SD/Band have virtually no counter play if played correctly. Mono iron head with sub is redic and doesn’t care about resists. AV brings a lot of good things to the tier, but it should not be used as the reason to keep this thing around.

tlenit1: Ban. The more I have been using Perrserker the more Im convinced this thing is extremely good balance/stall breaker and with its given abilities it breaks through all its checks. Band set is almost impossible to switch and iron head is pretty braindead click. Pretty similar to Exeggutor, offensive counter plays are there, but defensively its almost an impossible task

termi: Ban. Very on the fence about this because of how surprisingly rare it's been, but at the end of the day I don't think there is enough counterplay to this thing. Qwilfish aside, most "switchins" either get chunked very heavily by its STAB or falter to one of its coverage moves, while its slower checks like Corsola and Runerigus just straight up lose if they get flinched by CB sets. Soft counterplay meanwhile doesn't exist because of Perrserker's raw power. PU needs less breakers like this one and Eggy to make progress as a tier imo.

Specs: Ban. Has far too much variety and limits team building. Perrserker didn't so hot in snake but I am using personal experience here. CB is prediction reliant but the risk reward is almost always in Perrserkers favor thanks to tough claws limiting how many times resists are willing to come in. Sub SD sets I'm not too big on but can be deadly, and abuse how much of the meta is scared out from the threat of other sets. Finally, I think AV is very close to being a healthy set but even with very little investment and just an Adamant nature breaks a large majority of the meta. This is another mon that restricts team building.

soulgazer: DnB. IDK about everyone else, but I like this thing. You are forced to pick between whether or not you want it to check something or to be harder to handle for your opponent. SubSD is dangerous against stall and slower balances, but a non-issue against offense. I even think slower teams could adapt to it, but maybe my midterms fried my brain.

Ktütverde: do not ban. As far as I'm concerned it is super balanced, and makes the tier so much better. CB is not even good with runerigus/gorsola/qwilfish/stunfisk everywhere, and without an AV you just die to any attack and just lose to stuff like lilligant glaceon eggy and alcremie. AV is fantastic, and replaces spdef mawile which, let's face it, sucked at checking anything reliably. A great mon for the tier.

zS: Do not Ban. Perrserker's crazy good atm, but offensive sets are nowhere to be seen. Indeed, the assault vest set has largely taken the upper hand and is a glue for the more offensive teams. Admittedly its offensive presence might be like Kangaskhan's, unmanageable on paper, but I think that these offensive sets haven't been used enough, so I can't confidently consider them broken


:ss/Pincurchin: 5/10 Not Banned
MZ: Do not ban. Just don't think Terrain is popping off really, it's far from bad but it's also not the most insane matchup stealing playstyle. Sorta feel like it's pretty close to Rain right now.

HJAD: Ban. In my opinion, this makes the whole terrain playstyle far too accessible, and is a far too consistent and degenerative matchup fish. Its got fantastic utility in spikes, tspikes and honestly not unworkable bulk, meaning its not only really easy to get terrain and hazards up, but also just a generally decent mon. Add to this how eterrain functions with offense. Being unable to rest in eterrain when we have a significant amount of mons which depend on rest for recovery like throh, type null etc is a bone breaker. I honestly enjoyed terrain as a playstyle when we only had grookey in the tier, because then the punishment for making your sweepers that dangerous was essentially how much value you can get out of a tier 1 starter, which is honestly hilarious and an interesting dynamic if you think about. Pincurchin just makes everything far too good and accessible.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Pincurchin isn't worrying by itself, and in the context of acting as a bulky check with reliable recovery to threats like Klinklang, Drifblim, Pawniard, Perrserker, Unfezant, etc., its presence is healthy for the tier. Rather, the support it's able to provide its teammates is a much bigger concern for me (Pincurchin is the scientist). The only tour results that Electric Terrain teams have had in this meta so far though is in Xiri v obii, and this one occurrence of Electric Seed-supported Swoobat cleaning late-game isn't enough evidence to declare that Electric Terrain teams are problematic enough to the point that Pincurchin would need to be banned. I look at Electric Terrain the same way as I look at rain; highly annoying, effective in the right setting and with a good match-up (and therefore the style as a whole needs to be considered when building), but ultimately, Pincurchin (and as an extension, Electric Terrain-based teams) is not banworthy at this time. If I see Electric Terrain teams being overbearing in other high level matches, I would be open to banning Pincurchin later on, but Xiri v obii could turn out to be nothing more than a one-off.

Sam I Yam: No ban. I disagree with arguments that pinc is too good at breaking on it’s on to remain in the tier. The only way I can see the need to ban this would be if terrain gets out of hand. I do not think that is the case, so I am voting for this to remain in the tier.

tlenit1: Ban. Electric surge is stupid as bricks. Gives unlimited amount of threats to the tier which we can not cover in one team. No matter how hard we try. Defensively Pincurchin offers a lot as well with its double spikes, memento, reliably recovery. Alone Pincurchin isnt that bad, but paired to e-surge its easily the most broken thing in the tier.

termi: Ban. Electric Terrain cheese should never be one of the better playstyles in a tier, it's extremely difficult to deal with all the different kinds of Seed sweepers and Pincurchin is actually pretty reliable team support to boot. I'm open to revisiting this ban later (if it happens) since it's always difficult to tell what elements push a playstyle like this one over the line, but for now I just want a quick solution to the Terrain issue - I hope it'll suffice.

Specs: Ban. E Terrain is too consistent and has far too many abusers that going through the 2 or 3 flavors of the month over and over would be a waste of time imo and not help the meta, so this is the answer imo. Games vs E terrain often play out where you barely get past one abuser, lose too much, and not have enough for the other 2-3 abusers. I don't believe it is good for the tier, and creates far too many headaches in the builder trying to account for most of what the play style can use.

soulgazer: DnB. Love the urchin and haven't had any problem with Electric Seed abusers quite yet in the very, very little amount of games where I faced them. If one or two of them pop up and become impossible to deal with, I would rather ban those than this lil boy. Perhaps its just underexplored or I am living under a rock. Wouldn't mind coming back to this after the DLC.

Ktütverde: do not ban. Not too sure why you would use that, terrain teams are super shaky to say the least and pretty much invalidated by jolteon. Pincurchin alone is frail and slow and idk what it's supposed to do over jolteon/eggy as a special attacker or over qwilfish/ferro as a spiker.

zS: Ban. Electric Terrain is way too good for PU, not only that it pushed mons like Swoobat a bit over the top, but also the strategy of seed + random specially offensive mon is just unmanageable. Pincurchin isn't broken on its own, but the whole Electric Terrain strategy is, and I think banning it is better than doing some complex bans just to keep it.


:ss/Alcremie: 2/10 Not Banned
MZ: Do not ban. I get why people have concerns but so far I'm not overly terrified of Acid Armor stuff, it's certainly not unimpressive so far but I've not been completely lost for counterplay.

HJAD: Ban. I just don't want this in the tier ngl. Despite gaining silvally-poison which remains its only decent check, this thing is near unwallable with only 2 coverage moves, and its moveset allows it to be the single most devastating wincon as well. We have a desperate lack of physical poisons, and if they are sufficiently weakened (qwil and psnvally dont have any natural recovery) aa+cm sets can bypass them without too many worries. aa+cm sets also find it super easy to get damage on the again 0 natural recovery steel types we have, which means that alcremie can either force damage consistently over the course of the game, or unveil its coverage and do tonnes of damage. There is no doubt that this is a valuable defensive addition to a tier that lacks knock off and liepard counterplay, but honestly, it doesnt do its defensive job that great. An example of it is just liepard adapting its set to run gunk shot to bop this thing switching in, and when ur only a half check to the main knock abuser and the only decent fairy we have (fuck jiggly honestly) that makes this just kind of a meh defensive addition to the tier honestly. Its nowhere near as important as a throh or ferroseed for example.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Another top-tier Pokemon that I was on the fence for banning and will continue to watch closely. This combination of CM / AA / Rest and Aroma Veil allows Alcremie to act as an extremely potent stand-alone wincon, making counterplay to this set pretty sparse. Otherwise, it's been a healthy addition to the tier that provides great support, enabling more defensive teams to function efficiently. Generally, Alcremie has to choose between having coverage for Fairy resists or dual dancing or providing cleric support, so it's not impossible to find a check for this, ex. Klinklang, Alolan Dugtrio, SpDef Corsola-G, etc.

Sam I Yam: No Ban. Plenty of counterplay to this. I don’t think this even belongs in the same conversation as the other mons on this slate. Needs multiple cm’s to beat steels, and if it runs fire then it often loses to tox. I don’t think this mon is bad by any means, but it isn’t even close to being a primary cause of concern in my eyes.

tlenit1: Ban. Unkillable mon with its acidarmor+cm+ dazzling/storedpower sets. Aroma veil backing it up is ridiculous good and prevents Alcremie getting taunted and nothing prevents its set up. Access to good coverage lets it hit hard enough against steels and poisons.

termi: DNB. It's kinda awkward to deal with due to the amount of sets it can run, but I do think we have the tools to adapt to Alcremie's presence and it's really just a matter of waiting for the meta to stabilize, or at least I hope so.

Specs: Do Not Ban. I don't believe with currently how builds are structured that Alcremie is broken or unhealthy. I appreciate its ability to swap into fighters, darks, and most non SE hits and threaten a good bit of the meta. I think it always has to choose what it cant do, and struggles because of that. CM ID Stored power doesnt have immediate damage at +1 +1 or +2, while gleam doesnt nuke everything non dark at +2 +2 +3. Offensive 3 attacks/Offensive CM struggle to switch into the aforementioned non SE hits, so it gets less opportunities to come in and do what it wants. It doesnt feel overbearing at the moment, but with a couple things gone it could get out of hand. For now though, this is how i feel.

soulgazer: Abstain. I have only played with 3 atk + Recover and Choice Scarf/Specs sets for fun, which by themselves are fine or bad... haven't faced any of the sets people are complaining about. I'm going to Abstain for this one.

Ktütverde: do not ban. I thought it would be great, and it's definitely the mon I've used the most since the shift, and I'm now convinced it's just plain bad. Countered by AV perr/poisonvally, checked by any pokemon with a physical move and/or toxic. You can run gimmick acid armor+rest but we all know sets like that just dont work because of X reasons: not enough time to setup, beaten by another setup sweeper, critical hit, switcheroo, etc: if it worked it would be unbeatable anyway and that's definitely not the case. Musharna is without a doubt a better alcremie, if what you want is a fighting check with good mixed bulk and recovery that can sweep. Rapidash galar also outclasses it as a fairy type. I'll change my mind if you prove me wrong, but I have yet to see an alcremie set that is reliable and not outclassed by something else.

zS: Do not Ban. Alcremie is a fantastic addition to the tier that has comfortably established itself as one of the best mons in the tier. It has plenty solid offensive and defensive answers, is a great defensive win condition and has a great special bulk. It's still a bit frail on the physical side, even with defensive investment, which makes it way more manageable.



Exeggutor is banned from PU. Kris n_n
 

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
November SS PU Beta Council Vote #1

The council voted on 9 new drops and the newly unbanned Drizzle. As is the norm for our quickvotes, a 60% supermajority was required for a ban which comes out to at least 5/7 ban votes.

:Mesprit: Mesprit: 7 Ban, 0 DnB
:Guzzlord: Guzzlord: 7 Ban, 0 DnB
:Magmortar: Magmortar: 7 Ban, 0 DnB
:Zygarde-10%: Zygarde-10%: 6 Ban, 1 DnB
:Kingler: Kingler: 6 Ban, 1 DnB
:Absol: Absol: 6 Ban, 1 DnB

:Cinccino: Cinccino: 4 Ban, 3 DnB
:Jynx: Jynx: 4 Ban, 3 DnB
:Frosmoth: Frosmoth: 0 Ban, 7 DnB

Drizzle: 7 Ban, 0 DnB

Mesprit, Guzzlord, Magmortar, Zygarde-10%, Kingler, Absol, and Drizzle are all banned from PU. Kris could you please update the ladder
This time we used a quick voting sheet without individual reasonings, which you can view here. I will be writing out a post in the NP thread shortly giving some abbreviated reasonings from our council discussions and laying out what we're planning to do with PUBL.
 

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
November SS PU Beta Council Vote #2

The council voted on 2 new drops, Silvally-Dragon and Drampa. A 60% supermajority was required for a ban which comes out to at least 5/7 ban votes.
:Silvally-Dragon: 7 ban, 0 DnB
:Drampa: 3 ban (soulgazer, tlenit, HJAD), 4 DnB (MZ, 2xTheTap, Specs, termi)


Silvally-Dragon is banned from PU. Kris I appreciate you very much
 

2xTheTap

what doesn't kill you makes you ugly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
Moderator
November SS PU Beta Council Vote #3

The council (minus soulgazer and mz, who sat this one out) and two rotating council (ManOfMany and Bag of Trixx) voted on Drampa. A 60% supermajority was required for a ban, which comes out to at least 5/7 ban votes. Only 3/7 voted Ban, so Drampa will remain in the tier.


 

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
Due to our 67-mon tier shift today, the council has decided to unban all Pokemon in PUBL (not Drizzle, which remains banned) and start fresh on the tier.
Absol, Arctovish, Galvantula, Golurk, Hitmontop, Magneton, Mesprit, Scyther, Basculin, Butterfree, Exeggutor, Flapple, Guzzlord, Kingler, Magmortar, Noctowl, Orbeetle, Rotom-Frost, Sawk, Thievul, and Silvallies Normal/Dark/Dragon/Electric/Fighting/Fire/Flying/Grass/Ground/Psychic/Water are all unbanned from PU.
Heat Rock is also unbanned from PU.
 
Last edited:

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
Real quick before the vote news, soulgazer is stepping down from the PU council now that there aren't any exciting team tours we can offer. Thank you for your time.

2021 PU Beta Council Vote #1
The PU council voted on 12 Pokemon. At least a 60% majority is required for a council ban which means 5/8 members need to vote ban. I would like to remind people that now we're past the insane DLC schedule and tier shifts have returned to their normal 3 months we will also be looking to suspect or resuspect Pokemon in the near future rather than entirely relying on council bans.

:ss/Indeedee-F: 8/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. Very uncomplicated, it's way too strong for this meta and there's no way things can settle down with the massive nuke that is Expanding Force just waiting to wreck teams. Also makes the cost of terrain way too low because of how excellent and splashable it is which is very uncool.

HJAD: BAN. In a meta full of ridiculous breakers, this thing is easily the best of them, and manages to be one of the best support mons as well, enabling several other high threat pokemon to sweep. Need to get rid of it asap, dont think its remotely controversial. Oh and the prio thing in terrain adds to the stupidness like what i cant use kanga lol get out.

2xTheTap: Ban. Removing Indeedee from the meta would be beneficial for the tier's growth - right now, the meta is bogged down by HO cheese, with Indeedee being the main source of the issue. Not only is Indeedee difficult to counter in its own right, which sets it apart from weaker auto-terrain setters like Thwackey and Pincurchin, but supplying strong sweepers like Hitmonlee, Sceptile, Omastar, etc. with both Psychic Terrain and Healing Wish support severely limits all forms of counterplay.

tlenit: Ban. Reasoning coming Monday.

termi: Ban. Too strong with Expanding Force, pretty much anything that isn't immune crumbles to it. Additionally it's insanely good team support for Unburden sweepers and you don't even have to force yourself into weird positions to build with say Indeedee + Sceptile unlike with other terrain setters because Indeedee has actual utility as a scarfer/breaker.

Specs: Ban. Too few actual resists to Expanding Force, good enough speed tier and scarf sets to outpace any non scarf offensive counter play. It also is amazing support for terrain + seed teams, heavily denting steels and other crucial types for hitmonlee, sceptile, ect. Overall I don't think Indeedee-F brings anything to the tier that would be worth trying to keep it.

Ktütverde: Ban. Scarf has access to a 156 BP psychic stab move, outspeeds other scarfers like Passimian and Braviary. Steel types like Steelvally and Togedemaru aren't particularly good defensive mons and are worn down quickly by expanding force and other sources of damage such as hazards and grass moves. Dark types like darkvally and guzzlord can't handle dazzling gleam and aren't mons you necessarily would want to use that much in this meta. Indeedee is also too cheap of a terrain setter and thus brings another element of uncompetitiveness.

ManOfMany: BAN. It's very strong with a reasonable speed tier and bulk, and on top of that provides way too good support. Theres no reason not to run Indeedee, easy ban for me.

:ss/Sirfetch 8/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. I know uncounterable breakers have been a thing but the degree to which there is no real playing around this thing is just absurd.

HJAD: BAN. This thing just has some incredible breaking power, it need only ever click CC, has good enough speed and the cherry ontop is First Impression, allowing it to be more than a significant threat to offensive structures, as well as the obvious mindnumbing clickability vs bulkier teams too. Get rid of asap.

2xTheTap: Ban. Sirfetch'd is simply too powerful for PU, even taking our newest drops into consideration. There are few enough resists to Scrappy Close Combat coming off of base 135 Attack as it is, but now factor in the potential for it to run CB or Leek, access to Poison Jab and Knock Off for mauling PU's typically used Fighting resists, and First Impression for giving Sirfetch'd a way to KO its offensive checks. There basically isn't a consistent way to answer Sirfetch'd, and so it is deserving of a ban.

tlenit: Ban. self terrain abuser with 156 stab and with scarf basically breaks any balance team with its speed tier. Specs set folds stalls and u have to get the play always right. Movepool offers perfect coverage and support with healing wish+trick.

termi: Ban. Scrappy CC broken.

Specs: Ban. Sirfetch'd has borderline no switch ins between Scrappy and coverage options like Brave Bird. Any hope to outpace it via being faster or hitting it with super effective moves means you will be sacking something unless you already have said mon in. There are some situations where the Sirfetch'd user does have to predict, but the opponent will have to get just about every play right to not have something insta-drop. It is unreasonable to play around and keep in mind when building.

Ktütverde: Ban. Choiceband duck invalidates bulky teams with scrappy CloseCombat and offensive teams with Firstimpression. Decent bulk and resistance to stealth rock makes it hard to revengekill it and makes its breaking job too easy. Stupid mon.

ManOfMany: BAN. Elite level wallbreaker is fine, but with First Impression off 135 attack to smack offense too is too much to keep around. If it wasnt for First Impression and maybe Scrappy (cause Ghosts are relevant now) I would vote No Ban similar to Machamp.

:ss/Machamp: 7/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. Not quite as absurd as Sirfetch'd but again we have these breakers that are so strong balance is just hobbled and offense revolves around abusing them while not being abused by them and Machamp still kills so much so fast that it falls right into the same place. It doesn't really matter that this and Sirfetch'd die kinda fast with the way they guarantee kills.

HJAD: BAN. Very similar to Sirfetch'd except with a tad more set variety in trade for speed / powerful priority. Id ban it just for its ability to incinerate balance alone, but the fact its half decent vs offense thanks to its (weaker) priority and good bulk especially when av'd is pretty stupid.

2xTheTap: Ban. Much like Sirfetch'd, Machamp is hugely potent and has the tools to maul Fighting resists badly enough that they're unable to answer other portions of the meta. Some combination of Heavy Slam, Knock Off, and Facade coming off of (Guts-boosted) 130 base Attack is simply too much to handle, and on top of that, it has the tools to clean against some of its offensive checks (ex. Bullet Punch against Whimsicott and Ribombee). No Guard Dynamic Punch sets are also constricting in their own right and add another layer of broken to Machamp that the tier cannot handle.

tlenit: Ban. Scrappy alone makes this thing impossible to switch in safely. Top to that leek+SD gives almost guaranteed crits, so yeah, good luck switching in. Not to mention lifeorb + grassy glide for never ending prio with grassy terrain support. Choice band set loves to click CC without risk and tbf, its not even that slow breaker. Pretttty nascar one

termi: Ban. Guts Flame Orb has no counters whatsoever, cannot be handled defensively at all.

Specs: Ban. Between Guts sets allowing it to have insane breaking potential while not having to lock into a move, reliable priority to clean up weakened teams, and perfect coverage Machamp is just as good of a breaker as Sirfetch'd. Most of my points for Sirfetch'd apply to Machamp too. You give up some things when running Machamp, but gain just as many things too. Again, it is unreasonable to play around and keep in mind when building.

Ktütverde: Ban. Same thing as Sirfetched, more inclined towards murdering bulky teams thanks to flameorb+facade/heavyslam/knock off. Where you can handle sirfetched with a fat fighting-resistant mon, you can't do anything vs Machamp due to perfect coverage. It can also use Assault Vest to make it very hard to kill while still being a deadly wallbreaker.

ManOfMany: NO BAN. This is a really tough one. I think its a combination of Guts wallbreaker set + its capability of running other sets like AV dynamic punch and Bulk Up with its natural bulk that could also be a threat. I think it has some limited capability to be worn down with rocky helm and flame orb for the Guts set so the offense matchup is really not that hot with its speed. It may seem hypocritical to vote ban on Exploud but not Machamp but idk, this feels just slightly easier to play around.

:ss/Duraludon: 6/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. I don't understand why people argue it's manageable, there are almost no switchins to this with any sort of reliable recovery. It absolutely nukes the tier for free with Specs so bad it's not even funny, but then Substitute+Iron Defense+Body Press laughs at you for running support Togedemaru, non-Roar Vaporeon, letting Jellicent get Toxic'd, w/e and autowins vs plenty of teams on its own too. The opportunity cost to this thing is practically nothing, almost every prediction scenario favors it since the best you can do is 50/50 Flash Cannon vs Draco Meteor a lot of the time, the few pivots we have like Silvally-Steel match up poorly and only take a couple hits, and none of the highly specific solutions proposed like SpDef Runerigus are practical or healthy. I don't go this hard because Duraludon is the most broken mon we have or have bad, but it's so strongly and clearly broken that I don't get why this isn't treated the same as Indeedee.

HJAD: BAN. I've been reasonably convinced this is an unhealthy presence. Its speed in combination with tier-leading special attack, fantastic stab combo and typing makes it one of the most splashable threats ive seen. It requires little to no support and gives so much in return, and thus, with minimal defensive answers, we have to ban this as well.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. There are a number of Steel-types that can address choiced variants of Duraludon, especially Silvally-Steel and Stunfisk-G. If Duraludon chooses to run Body Press in conjunction with its dual STABs to bypass other Steel-types, there are still Pokemon available like Jellicent, NP LO Vacuum Wave Toxicroak, and Lanturn that can check this well. Duraludon is the sort of Pokemon that is scary on paper but palatable in practice, as its Special Defense is very exploitable and often lets it down.

tlenit: Do Not Ban. great status absorber and turning itself into power house. Same than sirfetch, nothing likes to come in and coverage is way too good to be ignored.

termi: Ban. Our Steel types are not good enough to prevent this thing from crushing the tier. It is also too fast for a breaker this strong. Iron Defense Body Press invalidates most of the potential checks it would otherwise have.

Specs: Ban. We do not have the counterplay to consistently deal with Duraludon defensively. High level games have proven this, where often there is one defensive mon that can barely keep it in check but is on the back foot for the rest of the game as a result. It has set variety with Specs, Scarf, and Sub ID sets sometimes just not being able to be stopped. Duraludon has so few actual bad things about it that you could throw it on every team and it will always pick apart teams. The only thing you need to worry about are the fighting types that you will not be switching into, and it's horrible special defense. It is by far the scariest mon in the tier now that Sigilyph is gone and I am very happy we will not have to deal with this thing in the tier anymore.

Ktütverde: Ban. Shitty spdef for sure, but great speed, offensive/defensive typing in steel/dragon is amazing, just the coverage it needs in thunderbolt for water walls and bodypress for steels. Stealth rock increases its splashability, can run Lifeorb or any other item really, and on top of that Specs and Scarf are amazing sets that make use of its numerous resists, physical bulk, and resistance to rocks, which makes it hard to KO without a powerful special move. It's just too unpredictable, fast and powerful.

ManOfMany: BAN. This mon doesn't have real switch-ins even though it might look like it does at first

:ss/Kingdra: 7/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. Rain Dance has practically no defensive counterplay and can easily just invalidate your offense so hard it's not even funny (instead of balance for a change). Really pushes matchup issues and very specific building because again, if I'm ever not running a very fat Aromatisse/Jellicent/Vaporeon I'm almost certainly dead. Oh and then it'll Focus Energy right through those, or start Dragon Dancing through the latter 2. It's not even like Duraludon where we could start using niche crappy mons to help deal with Kingdra, it just forces you to play its game way too well.

HJAD: BAN. Probably one of the most efficient cleaners in the tier. So much power, fantastic coverage, some decent set diversity make this thing stand out as the tiers go to settup cleaner. Typing and half decent bulk allow it to settup and clean the offense teams that exist in the meta pretty easily with minimal weakening. Its a massive cripple to that playstyle, and can threaten balance equally well with its strength with rain / sniping.

2xTheTap: Ban. CritDra is too strong for PU with Draco Meteor + Hydro Pump being mostly unresisted (save Whismicott, Ferroseed, Shiinotic), and Shell Armor / Battle Armor Pokemon either not using the ability, not hitting the SpDef requirement needed to take a Sniper-boosted Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor, or are old meta (ex. Type: Null) and don't fit on most teams. Even if you do have the SpDef investment on a Pokemon needed to take on Kingdra, the potential for Kingdra to be a mixed or physical set with DD is there and so reliable prep at builder for Kingdra is elusive at best.

tlenit: Ban. Has ultimate amount of sets and rain+specs is stupid as brick. Sure we have vaporeon and jellicent with their respective water absorb, but how about facing CritDra with DD Sub? Well, now the only fair switch ins are dead again

termi: Ban. Too versatile, Focus Energy sets are pretty much impossible to prep for if you're running a slower team, under rain it is a menace against offense etc. It's broken.

Specs: Ban. Kingdra has very little consistent defensive counter play. It's multitude of sets also allow it to potentially get around them all too. Focus Energy + Razor Claw + Sniper allow it to always take out Vaporeon just after rocks. Rain Dance + Swift Swim sets clean up teams like it is nothing, almost needing no chip to do so if there isnt a bulky water that can take 2 dracos. I don't think Kingdra is the most broken thing rn, and we could realistically re test it in the future, but we haven't been able to adapt to it right now as far as I can see.

Ktütverde: Ban. How do you even beat this, it's the ultimate sweeper. Amazing bulk similar to silvally's lets it set up on anything without a fairy move or boosted attack. DD, rain, and critDra are stupid sweepers, and make HO extremely cheesy unwelcome.

ManOfMany: NO BAN. Okay... I'm drifting from the consensus on this one. Kingdra is definitely scary with the Rain set, Focus energy crits, DD etc all that versatility. But I havent found any individual set to be that consistently overwhelming so I think theres a chance we can adapt to its versatility. I definitely understand the ban argument but want to give this another chance.

:ss/Roserade: 4/8 Not Banned
MZ: Ban. This isn't about hazards it's about being incredibly strong and having the ability to Sleep every decent switchin. I think if this didn't have Sleep Powder it'd be balanced but it's such a low risk for Roserade to take that massively cripples opposing teams. I totally get being on the DnB side of this one but Rose has never really struck me as fair in PU.

HJAD: DNB. Spikes don't seem to be anywhere near as popular this gen unless you pair it with a significant amount of well-synergised knock support, and in comparison to our other special attackers, rose is lacking significantly in the busted department. We should keep it, and try to promote some of the styles it should popularise unless it becomes too much of a teambuilding burden defensively. This may still be a possibility given plume left meaning its one of the only reasons to prep for grass/psn, but i think we have the devices to deal with it still.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. While none of these enjoy eating Sleep or switching into Spikes, the meta's Fire-, Poison- and Steel-types are often enough to answer Roserade at least in the short-term. Specially defensive Charizard, Vital Spirit Magmortar, Silvally-Steel, etc. are some examples of the above that can address Roserade effectively while avoiding being deadweight in other match-ups.

tlenit: Do Not Ban.

termi: Ban. Once again our steel types suck too much. Sleep Powder makes the few checks it has even less reliable.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Roserade feels like one of the most viable mons in the tier, giving teams a lot in one slot. However I do think that a lot of what the worry is right now has been its ability to annoy steels with sleep, allowing the dragons we have to go to town. Nothing about it inherently has been an issue in my eyes. Boots are everywhere so semi-reliable spikes aren't a key issue right now. Idk, just don't see it atm. Will be interested to see if we will continue to look at it in the future.

Ktütverde: Ban. Its bulk sucks, its speed isn't the best, but take its ridiculous power, access to spikes, and ability to switch in easily vs defensive staples like water types, rock types, and ground types, and you find yourself looking at one of the most destructive mons out there. It can easily get 1 or 2 spikes up by forcing stuff out, but you actually just need to spam leafstorm, sludgebomb and sleep or paralysis spores to wreck the opposing team. There are no switchins to this, even steelvally gets worn down very fast and doesnt want to be spored.

ManOfMany: BAN. Roserade lost two major things in this generation- coverage for steel-types and potency of Spikes due to Boots. Yet it's still an incredibly powerful mon with tools like Sleep Powder to cripple switch-ins, Eject Button which I saw in termi's match for momentum, a lot of ways to exploit passive mons that are a necessity right now like Palossand. Based on what I've seen its still slightly too good.

:ss/Exploud: 8/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. I mean you run a Gigalith, play around with Spdef Aggron (or maybe a Soundproof mon if you're really crazy) and hope you win the 50/50s, or accept that it can and will guarantee kills. Very easy to pivot in, enough bulk to not quite get OHKOd by a good portion of the tier so you're limited in your response, enough Speed that almost any team sorta has to have something slower to be abused, this guy just has everything he needs here. Run Gigalith or die.

HJAD: BAN. Similar to brotha sirfetch'd but with no priority and being a bit frailer. It trades this for tier leading spammability and power. Its the reason u see the shitty regirock / gigalith teams burdening people with passive defensive cores which get abused by the rest of the tier. Removing this would help the playability of the tier so much and remove some of the 5050s that occur when building currently.

2xTheTap: Ban. Exploud is part of what makes building in this meta so difficult and is a big reason why specially defensive Gigalith sees so much usage. And, with SpDef Gigalith seeing high usage, this provides potent Pokemon like Virizion (and Golurk in the previous meta) an easy avenue to switch in and setup, thanks due in part to how threatening Exploud is. Exploud also has coverage for Gigalith in Hydro Pump anyway, meaning Gigalith is a shaky answer at best. In other words, it is better to build with enough offensive checks to Exploud and limit the number of passive Pokemon that let it in, but that is not always an option in this meta.

tlenit: Ban. scrappy paired to high base power stab is incredibly hard to switch. Nothing comes again in and this thing keeps KOing whatever switches in

termi: Ban. Scrappy Boomburst broken.

Specs: Ban. Exploud has about one good switch (Gigalith) in the tier, and it can also just do %50 to it if it predicts correctly. It almost completely invalidates balance if you get it in enough. I'm not sure more needs to be explained, if you've faced it you know how silly it is, and I can't see us keeping Exploud helping building or the tier as a whole at all.

Ktütverde: Ban. Not the biggest issue for sure since there are so many better breakers and its speed and bulk are lacking. But its wallbreaking effectiveness is absolute; it just struggles to switchin at all in the first place in such a broken meta, but when it does something dies. Unless you have healthy gigalith I guess.

ManOfMany: BAN. With powerful breakers I dont mind giving them a chance, if they dont really threaten offense that much. But Exploud is soooo over the top in terms of breaking ability that I dont think its offense matchup matters. It only needs to click one button its just too free.

:ss/Raichu-Alola: 6/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. It just sweeps teams with terrain up, yet again what do you expect to live the +2 coverage coming from this? It's not hard to set up, it always provides teams with an out, and it takes very little skill to abuse. I firmly believe we've only seen so little because it's just harder to make work than our other more broken stuff and checked nicely by Scarf Indeedee-F but we're getting rid of all this stuff and not getting any new counterplay to this.

HJAD: BAN. With Electric Terrain here to stay, its not worth dealing with this thing, which can offer power / speed and coverage all in 1 mon with the terrain shenanigans going. Its absolutely brutal when your not packing a dedicated resist (who can afford one these days) or powerful enough priority user (if its at full health and u dont have FI or lose a sucker 5050 then oh no) it just tends to sweep at that point. Given terrain support is not rare or hard to come by (or bad), then it also loves the opponents inability to rest in order to stave off the turns till terrain ends.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. I haven't really found fully dedicated Electric Terrain teams to be common or all that effective in this meta, and so I question letting an otherwise balanced breaker like Raichu-A go based on how it functions on a playstyle that's overshadowed by teams centered around Indeedee's Psychic Surge. There are checks to Raichu-A that are easy to build with in this meta, especially Guzzlord and Claydol. Additionally, its paper-thin defenses leave it vulnerable to strong priority users like Shiftry, Absol, Toxicroak, etc.

tlenit: Do Not Ban.

termi: Ban. Rising Voltage hits too hard under ETerrain, Grass Knot invalidates most immunities, NP allows it to break stuff like Lanturn, in terms of offensive counterplay you basically have to win a Sucker Punch mindgame to get past it. Can easily be paired with an Unburden sweeper to exploit that sort of thing. Not sure if this is worth banning over Pincurchin the instigator but some element of Electric Terrain has to go to balance things out at least so it may as well be this thing.

Specs: Ban. With Electric Terrain support Raichu has very little counterplay in the tier, the most reliable being Prioirty in Sucker Punch and First Impression. Rising Voltage almost always 2 hit ko's Gigalith after rocks, while ground types arent safe either between STAB Psychic and Grass Knot. If terrain wasn't a thing, I would not be voting this way. At the same time though, Raichu is the only issue I have with Electric Terrain rn so yea.

Ktütverde: Ban. The terrain sweeper set is broken for all three. Outside of terrain, sceptile is still very dangerous with SD and specs. Hitmonlee is straight up nuts no matter what you're using, 87 speed is crazy for a fighting in PU. CB, LO rapidspin, Bulkup+unburden sets are all insanely broken, and scarf is also crazy. Poison and fairies can handle it kinda but get overpowered very easily. This guys is as good as top and chan together.
(yes ktut did one reasoning for all the terrain sweepers)

ManOfMany: BAN. Since we are not voting on Pincurchin, this mon has got to go. It is almost impossible to prep for it in Terrain, stronger than Indeedee and with an unbeatable speed tier its just ridiculous.

:ss/Sceptile: 5/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. I think we've seen how good terrain can be even without Indeedee-F that I'm willing to push this out now. Like Kingdra and Alolan Raichu a sweeper that you can only try to beat defensively and never offensively is a real issue. Sceptile is absolutely weaker and easier to check or counter with Talonflame, Weezing, what have you but it's sort of always one step away from just winning and I think the Unburden dynamic is a real issue. Would not mind trying to get this back later but for now I've cycled back around to an immediate ban being the best course of action.

HJAD: BAN. Literally the same as Raichu-A except replace electric terrain with grassy terrain and you have a very similar description. Ive found the coverage/set diversity to be a tad more concerning though, since things you would expect to be physical or special tend to bone you way more than in Raichu's case, but with the trade off as a less useful (but far from useless) offensive terrain property. It should also be noted that unlike eterrain, there are no typings naturally immune to grass, so you will be taking damage certainly when playing this boi, but hopefully not for too much longer.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. A lot of what causes Sceptile to be overwhelming stems from the fact that Unburden sets cannot be answered by priority while Indeedee's Psychic Terrain is in play, which prevents offensive checks like Talonflame, Sneasel, Piloswine, Abomasnow, Sandslash-A, etc. from RKOing Sceptile. Haze Weezing, specially defensive Articuno, and Golbat are some examples of sufficient defensive checks for each variant of Sceptile. On the other end of the spectrum, there is a handful of faster checks to Sceptile (prior to Unburden activating) like Ribombee, Accelgor, and Talonflame (and the aforementioned priority users if Terrain is down).

tlenit: Ban. Same with hitmonlee. Good amount of sets available and unburden makes it fastest mon in entire game pretty much. Bulky enough with seed to absorb hit and start slapping back after setting up.

termi: Do not ban. Without Indeedee this might be manageable since other terrain setters have more opportunity cost and don't block priority, meaning Ice Shard users can pick Sceptile off if weakened. Defensive counterplay is limited but does exist (i.e. Weezing, Vikavolt) so I'd at least like to see this thing operate in a tier without Indeedee.

Specs: Ban. Sceptile has too many good sets that take advantage of this meta game. SD + Unburden + Acro has too few checks, SD sets alone still break past a majority of things on balance, and LO Special sets dent a majority of things too. It is extremely fast, so offensively pressuring it isn't an option most of the time. Losing Vileplume really hurt our chances to keep this thing around imo. As you could force the attack, go into Vileplume and eat non +2 Acro.

Ktütverde: Ban. The terrain sweeper set is broken for all three. Outside of terrain, sceptile is still very dangerous with SD and specs. Hitmonlee is straight up nuts no matter what you're using, 87 speed is crazy for a fighting in PU. CB, LO rapidspin, Bulkup+unburden sets are all insanely broken, and scarf is also crazy. Poison and fairies can handle it kinda but get overpowered very easily. This guys is as good as top and chan together.
(yes ktut did one reasoning for all the terrain sweepers)

ManOfMany: NO BAN. Unburden sets concern me but I think we need more time to play around them in a post-bans meta, while non Unburden sets are just strike me as a good cleaner.

:ss/Hitmonlee: 2/8 Not Banned
MZ: Do Not Ban. I originally brought this up as a concern but the main difference is that we're already ready for some very powerful Fighting-type sweepers whereas you don't have comparable concern and easy-to-fit checks to Sceptile. Traditional defensive Fighting-type checks mostly work. Hitmonlee still has a really powerful dynamic and can be very risky to face but the previous availability of checks is what makes me want to see if we can keep it around with just Thwackey and Pincurchin to support compared to the unique issues Sceptile poses.

HJAD: DNB. At worst it provides the tier with a ruthless and easy to settup cleaner, and best it actually serves a purpose as decent spinner which can fit on offensive archetypes. Given other harder to switch into fighting types such as Scrafty arent being voted on, id feel uncomfortable banning this for this reason. I also want people to use fighting resists still, so any excuse for them not to is haram.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Same reasoning as Sceptile - it's a Pokemon that can be considered overwhelming when it's built with very specific supports, but take away those supports, and you're left with a Pokemon vulnerable to typically used Fighting checks.

tlenit: Ban. Same with Sceptile. Good amount of sets available and unburden makes it fastest mon in entire game pretty much. Bulky enough with seed to absorb hit and start slapping back after setting up.

termi: Do not ban. Same deal as Sceptile except it has more potential checks. Sets outside of terrain could maybe be annoying to deal with but I simply haven't seen it in action outside of that context.

Specs: Do Not Ban. Hitmonlee is quite scary, but often doesn't beat what it isn't supposed to. It isn't as scary as the other terrain sweepers initially, because of either lack of power or coverage. I just don't see it cleaning up teams alone with Palossand, Weezing, 100% Talonflame, and even the rare Mesprit running around. After some of these bans, it could rise up and become one of the top breakers but atm it faces very huge competition as a mon itself and doesn't do enough on the terrain teams that it is prominent on.

Ktütverde: Ban. The terrain sweeper set is broken for all three. Outside of terrain, sceptile is still very dangerous with SD and specs. Hitmonlee is straight up nuts no matter what you're using, 87 speed is crazy for a fighting in PU. CB, LO rapidspin, Bulkup+unburden sets are all insanely broken, and scarf is also crazy. Poison and fairies can handle it kinda but get overpowered very easily. This guys is as good as top and chan together.
(yes ktut did one reasoning for all the terrain sweepers)

ManOfMany: NO BAN. I've played around with Unburden sets and like Sceptile, they are really good but have their consistent checks in priority and typical fighting checks. Reckless / wallbreaker sets could be a concern later on as well but I've seen no evidence to suggest they need to go yet.

:ss/Tauros: 7/8 Banned
MZ: Ban. What if uncounterable breaker but slightly weaker and more prediction-prone than the other ones previously but it made up for all of that with insane 110 Speed and decent enough bulk that revenge killing is a real headache. Throat Chop being Sheer Force boosted is absolutely the thing that pushes Tauros over the edge from fine to how do we even handle this. If only it was slightly slower though.

HJAD: BAN. This thing is straight stupid. Its basically unpressurable offensively and puts its fair share of pressure vs bulkier teams too. Very functionally similar to duraladon which is amongst the best mons in the tier at the moment. Ive personally used this in combination with exploud to get a spam core going and bone over the main 2 archetypes, and only really gets overwhelmed vs the busted terrain archetypes. It would not be fair to require the counterplay used for this on offensive teams. Ideally we want offense to coexist with balance as a way to punish passivity, not be a mutated version of balance just to deal with this 1 high power, high speed, decent bulk and spammable threat.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. It's received virtually no usage (1 game in LTPL where it didn't do much) in competitive play as a result of it being awkward to build with and it offering little defensive utility in this meta. There is very little data suggesting a ban is warranted now - this could easily change later on, if after the meta settles, there are replays showcasing Tauros being overwhelming. As it stands now however, there is both defensive (ex. Palossand, Cofagrigus, Regirock, Tangela, Jellicent, Corsola-G, etc.) and offensive (any scarfer, Lycanroc, Sneasel, Gurdurr, Hitmon-chan/-lee/-top, etc.) counterplay, and so banning Tauros until we see more from it would be premature.

tlenit: Ban. Too fast, too strong with its amazing ability. Movepool lets you hit whatever u need to and teammates can pressure rest. The only fine switch in tangela gets dropped by fire blast as well

termi: Ban. Don't see how teams can deal with this, especially offensive teams since Tauros is too fast to keep it from doing stuff through offensive pressure alone while its checks are mostly so passive that they become a massive momentum suck. That aside, these checks are also unreliable and can lose if Tauros runs the right move in its 4th moveslot, which is completely free because STAB + CC + Throat Chop already covers most of the meta.

Specs: Ban. With Tauros's coverage, speed tier, and power it has very little counter play. Body SLam Close Combat Earthquake and Throat Chop hits everything in the tier too hard, meaning outspeeding with scarfers or faster things like Passimian, Talonflame, Ribombee, Whimsicott, ect. are necessary to deal with Tauros consistently. Tbh there hasn't been much Tauros in high level play, possibly because it's odd to fit on teams sometimes. But none of that takes away from how dumb Tauros is to deal with on a consistent basis.

Ktütverde: Ban. Crazy speed tier, only sceptile and ribombee outspeed kinda. It has no switchins either besides regirock. It may look less frightening in a tier with the likes of machamp, but its speed and power are too terrifying to allow it any longer in PU.

ManOfMany: BAN. The addition of Close Combat and Sheer Force boosted Throat Chop to Tauros' arsenal may seem minor, but on paper these changes make Tauros slightly too overwhelming for me.

:ss/Virizion: 3/8 Not Banned
MZ: Do Not Ban. I know we lost Vileplume and Sigilyph, I recognize that. I think we can give this a shot. Pretty much everything faster than this revenge kills it without much trouble, it doesn't boost all that freely and often needs to predict very right to do good damage to teams, we've still got a lot of emphasis on Fighting-checks and its typing/coverage/unpredictability do not seem more oppressive than what Scrafty and Toxicroak already have to offer, let alone less problematic Fighting-types like Gallade and Hitmontop. Even if this ends up being a mistake I see Virizion as overbearing but not dominating games/the meta like Duraludon and Indeedee-F are right now, I really want to give it this shot, Virizion cool.

HJAD: DNB. Falls under the same argument as Hitmonlee. Id ideally like to see more of an influx of the poison and psychic types used to check this. Its really not strong prior to settup which can be abused, and doesnt offer anything other than a specific balance breaker (but lol balance doesnt exist yet). If it ends up being problematic for balance, we can ban in a needs-must basis, but i dont think this is what is limiting from balance to exist, more so the plethora of high attacking power breakers we still have.

2xTheTap: Do not ban. Virizion is very restrictive in how few checks there are to it (ex. Talonflame, Whimsicott, Accelgor, Ribombee, Toxicroak), but enough counterplay exists even with Vileplume leaving. I am a proponent of the idea that we should wait for the meta to settle before holding another vote for Virizion.

tlenit: Do Not Ban.

termi: Ban. Similar situation as Tauros except it trades some power for more diversity in sets (mixed AoA, SD with Zheadbutt or Stone Edge depending on what you need, Specs) and more opportunity to come in thanks to great bulk and some useful resistances. Small chance the meta could handle it but reliably prepping for this mon seems incredibly difficult right now so I'd rather boot it out and maybe suspect it later if the meta seems ready for it.

Specs: Ban. Another case where Vileplume leaving really kills most of the chances id still want it in the tier. The main thing I felt kept Virizion in check most of the time was that it couldnt run its stab + SD + 2 coverage options all at once. Being able to run Edge most of the time now means the birds aren't ever safe. This is just broken enough to me to vote ban, but wouldn't be devastated if it stays.

Ktütverde: Ban. Incredible speed and bulk as well as great typing make it a very effective sweeper able to setup swords dance or calmmind on most defensive mons (water rock ground steels). Then good luck revengekilling especially the CM set: after a CM it can also stomach any special hit that isn't hurricane and recover its HP with giga. A true monster.

ManOfMany: NO BAN. I don't really think this pokemon is broken at the moment. It is a very good setup sweeper and a consistent mon but lacks that immediate power or crazy dominant trait that I would be calling for it to get out of the tier.



Indeedee-F, Sirfetch'd, Machamp, Duraludon, Kingdra, Exploud, Raichu-Alola, Sceptile, and Tauros are all banned from PU. Kris happy new year
 
Last edited:

MZ

Ban all DLC
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
2021 PU Beta Council Vote #2
The PU council voted on 4 Pokemon. At least a 60% majority is required for a council ban which means 5/8 members need to vote ban. Voting to suspect was also on the table for this vote. Suspect is in between ban, where a council member finds the Pokemon very strongly and immediately broken and do nothing/do not ban, where the Pokemon is perfectly balanced and there's nothing to even decide on. Suspect means the Pokemon is problematic, potentially worth a ban, but the whole community ought to vote on it.

:ss/Roserade: 7 Ban / 0 Suspect / 1 Do Nothing - Banned
MZ: Ban. I've talked at length about this but the risk/reward is completely skewed and people who talk about how you are capable of switching in and prepping your balls off for Sleep are really just missing the forest for the trees. This thing gets to spam on most of our meta, run tons of sets, always have huge reward from its high power STABs, Sleep, and two different hazards, and it's just bad to have around.

HJAD: BAN. I miscalculated in my previous vote on roserade its effectiveness as a standalone breaker, with the ability to access hazards, and instead thought it was a mon who reversed those roles. Since changing that mindset, Roserade has become much more painful to deal with, considering its large SpA, useful stabs, and ability to sleep/spike on several of the tiers more passive mons. As a result, I think it would be better for the development of the tier to remove one of the main special grass type attackers and therefore, hopefully limit teambuilding stress.

2xTheTap: Ban. The more I use Roserade, the more I understand it's simply too strong for the meta. Firstly, the way it takes advantage of the more defensive portions of the meta, ex. Aromatisse, Jellicent, Vaporeon, Gigalith, Palossand, Regirock, Runerigus, Lanturn, etc. (basically our primary checks to the tier's Fire-, Flying-, and Fighting-types), makes it very difficult to build coherent teams that address as many threats as possible without losing to Roserade or one of the breakers that Roserade enables (ex. Passimian, Archeops, Magmortar, etc.). In forcing many of these defensive linchpins out on threat of its powerful dual stabs, Roserade is easily able to create free turns that it can use to set Spikes to create a huge amount of offensive pressure, disable a switch-in with Sleep Powder, or simply Synthesis in order to threaten these defensive Pokemon more effectively in the long-term. Its sets are also variable enough (ex. Eject Pack Leaf Storm, Scarf, Specs, LO, Extrasensory, Synthesis, etc.) that playing against it isn't always as straightforward as you might think. Many of its offensive checks are fine to beat it in the short-term, but you're still playing around it with a razor-thin margin in those scenarios - having Golbat put to sleep, Charizard hit with a Sludge Bomb poison, Silvally-Steel taken to half with Specs Leaf Storm for example are things you can't really do much against when playing vs Roserade.

tlenit: Do nothing. If I had to pick suspect test mon, its Archeops.
honestly not sure what to say. None of them too much for the tier. Top tier threats for sure, but still question mark what Toxicroak is doing on this slate. Went through on latest post Virizion and Roserade and thats pretty much all I have for them.

termi: Ban. Honestly not as clear-cut of a case as many make it out to be, but at the end of the day I think it's broken. I do think Sleep Powder is a bit overestimated, sure it can bypass some of your checks but it is pretty luck-based and ultimately I think you get way more mileage out of Synthesis. The real problem with Roserade is that it completely takes advantage of the more passive side of the metagame that is needed to keep other big threats like Archeops and Passimian in check. Palossand, Jellicent, and Aromatisse to name a few are very important checks to many top threats and all let Roserade in basically for free, especially when you can get rid of accumulating chip damage with Synthesis. From there on, you can choose to set Spikes if your opponent is vulnerable to them or simply fire off a STAB move, since there's only a few actual switchins and most of them get chipped pretty easily.

Specs: Ban. With the tier slowed down post Duraludon, Indeedee, Raichu-Alola, Tauros, ect. Roserade has become too much to handle. Its spikes became more reliable, its already fast sleep became tougher to outpace, and its breaking power became more noticeable. With the fighting craze going on, it also isn't tough to get in. Fairys like Aromatisse and Whimsicott, and bulky waters like Jellicent and Vaporeon allow Roserade in scott free for most of the game. TlDR it's has too many ways to get in, and once it is in it's very tough to stop because of sleep.

Ktütverde: Ban. Roserade has too many things going for it. The combination of them all makes it completely broken. The first combo is it's insane special attack paired with its ability to abuse staples such as defensive waters, rocks and grounds (except gigalith that has massive spdef and high attack). That gives it the ability to click Leafstorm 2 or even 3 times per battle, and nothing can stomach this except subpar, passive options like Golbat and Articuno. Remember that Roserade is pretty much as powerful as Latios, and that our steels are far less bulky than OU steels. Useless comparison maybe but I like it. Then there are poison types but they don't like switching into roserade at all, especially since they have to be run physically defensively to check fightings: Weezing, Garbodor. Then the second combo is spikes+sleep powder, the latter move allows roserade to prevent defoggers from removing spikes: if roserade didn't have access to sleep powder, the likes of steelvally and poisonvally could be able to pressure it and remove all spikes quite reliably. But with sleep powder, they become useless. I didnt mention roserade's speed, which is pretty good, and lets it outspeed a bunch of threats that would otherwise beat it like toxicroak gallade hitmonlee and garbodor. My conclusion is that roserade is too powerful for PU, abuses staples and can make use of spikes too easily to be allowed any longer in the tier.

ManOfMany: BAN. Roserade is still too much for the tier. I feel like people still continue to underestimate Leaf Storm and Bomb from 125 Special offense, that hits like a truck. If we had better steel types I might feel differently, but Roserade can simply click Sleep Powder on all of them but Ferroseed or set up hazards on the switch.... or set up hazards while they are sleeping and go to the plentiful steel switch-ins that are on teams these days. Because of this, the Roserade user can easily maintain momentum even with counterplay on the field. Offensively Rose is bad enough, and the cherry on top is that Roserade gets plenty of opportunities to switch in the field for relatively free. In this meta, pokemon like Palossand, Vaporeon, Regirock are defensive necessities to prevent other pokemon from sweeping teams and Rose can get in on them for balance easily. Rose does have common counterplay in terms of faster offensive pokemon but it does entirely too much work every time it comes in.


:ss/Virizion: 2 Ban / 3 Suspect / 3 Do Nothing - Not Banned
MZ: Suspect. I'm actually leaning no ban on this right now but I really do think it's worth letting people decide if very fast coverage breaker that's got very consistent revenge killers/ways to play around it but always has huge breaking potential and can have a lot of set coinflips is worth keeping around.

HJAD: BAN. With my last vote on Virizion, I also miscalculated its effectiveness vs most offensive playstyles. Its speed and coverage combined with its ridiculous bulk make it a huge bitch for offensive styles to deal with, far more than I initially believed. That in addition to its timely ability to invade balance / bulkier archetypes with your standard sd sets make it one of the most splashable and versatile pokemon in the tier. I think its best to remove it now, especially as it will only get better as the meta settles.

2xTheTap: Do Nothing. This is the sort of Pokemon that is actually healthy for the meta - it supplies a very unique set of resists and gives you more options when building. Its presence anchors the meta, similar to how Stoutland dictated a non-Ghost type Normal resist be used to answer Facade/Frustration (even though it'd still be vulnerable to Superpower), or how teams often needed multiple Pokemon to account for Rotom-F's boltbeam coverage in ORAS. Virizion really isn't that much different in this regard, as many Pokemon stand in the way of Virizion ripping teams apart by itself. Moreover, while it has perfect coverage (ex. Zen Headbutt for Toxicroak, Weezing and other Poison-types, Stone Edge for Talonflame, Ribombee, and Charizard, Air Slash for Whimsicott and Gourgeist, etc.) its meager offenses really do require some sort of boost for Virizion to be truly threatening, whether that's SD or CM, and given the number of checks it has, setting up is not always possible. The only issue I see here is the number of coin flips it causes as you attempt to predict its set, and you may end up losing to it while trying to scout its set, but really, that's not any different than trying to switch into Stoutland or Rotom-F in ORAS.

tlenit: Do nothing. If I had to pick suspect test mon, its Archeops.
honestly not sure what to say. None of them too much for the tier. Top tier threats for sure, but still question mark what Toxicroak is doing on this slate. Went through on latest post Virizion and Roserade and thats pretty much all I have for them.

termi: Suspect. I'm going too much back and forth on this one to vote ban, I usually don't find it too difficult to be somewhat prepared for this thing, but due to its versatility and the fact that many non-passive checks you're never really truly prepared. Especially on faster teams that can't afford a momentum suck like Aromatisse or whatever it's very difficult to be prepped, and the only saving grace here is that Ribombee/Talonflame/Whimsicott all check it somewhat defensively while outspeeding it and hitting it hard with their STAB moves, although they're still pretty shaky switchins due to Stone Edge OHKOing 2 out of 3. Basically, it can probably be played around, albeit awkwardly, so for the moment I can't vote ban on it.

Specs: Ban. To be clear I do want a suspect on this thing so the public player base can get some say but I'm also of the opinion that it is broken, so my vote reflects that. Virizion is too tough to deal with defensively, and has just enough defensive utility to get in throughout matches. Between SD, 4 attacks mixed/physical, and CM, Virizion has a set or coverage option for everything in the tier. While it can't run them all at once, I also find matches vs it very often come down to what coverage option certain sets run. This leads to counter play being shaky. It does have quite a bad defensive typing vs faster threats, so you can deal with it offensively very well. This doesn't save it in my eyes though, it's far too good of a breaker and bad for the tier.

Ktütverde: Do nothing. Virizion is a mon I find to be quite fine. It worried me a bit because of its unpredictability: for exemple, if you send out weezing and that virizion starts using calmmind, your weezing just becomes a free KO for virizion. But after some testing, virizion has appeared to me as just fine. Its biggest flaws are difficulty to switchin on anything and thus setting up, lack of firepower forcing it to setup, and massive weakness to all sorts of speed control. Virizion just seems to get constantly toxiced, glared or scald-burned by the things it's supposed to take advantage of. If you are using a setup set, you have to bring virizion in safely which is difficult, and if you're using LO 4 atks, status+recoil are gonna kill you real fast. But the nail in the coffin is the incredible amount of faster mons that kill virizion: scarfers like Passimian Mesprit and Braviary beat it easily; Ribombee and Whimsicott also RK it without much trouble. 108 speed isn't even that good in the current metagame. And finally the biggest ennemy, Talonflame. Without stone edge, virizion can literally do nothing vs that guy, and the guy is pretty good and splashable. Add to the list of potential revengekillers charizard, garbodor, fairyvally, poisonvally etc, and you find yourself with a sweeper that struggles to setup and cant do more than 1 kill.

ManOfMany: SUSPECT. Virizion is a great candidate for a suspect test. Technically Virizion is a pokemon that is very difficult to truly counter. Its fantastic coverage and ability to setup makes it able to take on pokemon that should have an advantageous typing vs it. With the introduction of Leaf Storm to its movepool, it can run a potent mixed set as well. Whats holding me back slightly is I don't feel Virizion in practice is as stupidly powerful as it has potential to be, and I haven't seen too much evidence of it totally dominating teams either. It's not exactly like Roserade where you can basically just click buttons-- especially if you are running SD, you have to pick your setup wisely as we have no shortage of revenge killers of Virizion. Another thing is seeing some trends in increasing commonness of some pokemon like Weezing and Whimsicott which can switch in pretty solidly and are good meta picks in general. And then there are pokemon like Talonflame, Ribombee, Scarf Mesprit or Scarf Toxicroak who are offensive checks that prevent it from clicking easy buttons like it wants.


:ss/Archeops: 0 Ban / 1 Suspect / 7 Do Nothing - Not Banned
MZ: Do Nothing. It's very good and has very straightforward flaws. Switchins might get a lot more viable once we delete Rose too.

HJAD: DO NOT BAN. This thing is fantastic, but only as much as that. Not broken, we have counterplay for it and I dont think its overwhelming presence in the builder. My mood might soften on this if Rock types generally fall out of favour in the tier, but in the current space, I havent seen archeops cause an unhealthy amount of pressure.

2xTheTap: Do Nothing. Roserade's presence in the meta (was) a huge factor in why Archeops was so effective, but with bulky answers like Palossand, defensive Vaporeon, Regirock, Gigalith, etc. being free to check Archeops, it really has a much harder time threatening teams without heavy offensive support. There isn't really anything that perfectly walls Archeops, or if there is something strong enough to take its QuakeEdge coverage, it is simply U-turned on, but at the same time, it's very easy to place Archeops in a check position with the number of Pokemon that take it on 1 on 1, so there's really no need to suspect or ban Archeops at this time.

tlenit: Do nothing. If I had to pick suspect test mon, its Archeops.
honestly not sure what to say. None of them too much for the tier. Top tier threats for sure, but still question mark what Toxicroak is doing on this slate. Went through on latest post Virizion and Roserade and thats pretty much all I have for them.

termi: Suspect. I initially found this to be too much for the tier because of its speed and attack stat paired with good coverage and amazing support move in Knock Off and U-Turn, but I'm a bit more sympathetic to the idea that it might be fine, at least enough to leave it up to a suspect test instead of a quickban. It's pretty awkward to build with due to its typing, pretty awkward to get in, has to make some tough concessions in what it can and cannot run, and obviously is greatly helped by Roserade's presence as a reliable spikestacker and switchin to several of Archeops's checks. I think it would be good to see how Archeops functions without Roserade to support it.

Specs: Do not ban. Nothing about Archeops feels over the edge at the moment. It has a tough time getting in as it cant really abuse its resistances at all, you cant really make a play vs faster things either because you die to everything or get put into defeatist. Common physical meta checks like rockers and the likes of Weezing and Jellicent do well vs it. Does it kill a lot in the tier? Yea. But I don't see anything overbearing with it for now.

Ktütverde: Do nothing. Archeops was maybe broken in SM, and that was in a metagame without Mudsdale, without any faster mons, and with much weaker mons than now. Not only can't archeops do anything vs defensive staples like Regirocks/Vaporeons/Sandaconda/Weezing, but it's also quite weak (dual wingbeat is only 80 BP) and too slow in a tier with much better glass cannons like Ribombee, Whimsicott, Sneasel, Talonflame and Jolteon. I've tried archeops a lot and it's just disappointing and I couldn't even justify using it besides the fact that it can check Talonflame and charizard once. Maybe it'll be good if the other fast mons rise to NU (but even then it'll struggle with many defensive staples), but for now it's outclassed by all the other faster glass cannons.

ManOfMany: DO NOTHING. I don't view Archeops as anything more than a strong offensive cleaner. Despite Archeops having access to Heavy Duty Boots now, Defeatist is still a hindrance because you if you run Dual Wingbeat you lose your amazing 110 BP Acrobatics. Archeops is powerful but not overwhelmingly so unless you run Choice Band, which is not something I can see being broken. This means that even despite Archeops speed and coverage there are lot of general fat mons like Regirock, Vaporeon that can tank hits, and pretty much all Choice Scarf users and priority neuter it. Finally Archeops brings very little defensively to a team so it is not something you can just throw on.


:ss/Toxicroak: 0 Ban / 1 Suspect / 7 Do Nothing - Not Banned
MZ: Do Nothing. I am more worried about this than Archeops, the set coinflips are a massive headache. NP is very good on its own, not just because SD exists, and the fact that Jellicent or Palossand or whatever aren't anywhere near safe switchins (the latter can even drop to SD Knock I suppose) is exactly the kind of thing that really bothers me. Definitely feels like it has a negative impact on how much the better player wins in this regard. That being said it's not running the meta, it still has clear flaws, let's deal with other things and just keep an eye out.

HJAD: DO NOT BAN. Now this thing might end up being broken. Vaporeon, despite being fantastic and a main glue in the tier gives toxicroak whatever it wants, free sds, nps whatever. And it isnt the only thing as well, it makes sense for the likes of gigalith to switch out on it more often than not and as a result it can often be difficult to prepare for a +2 from both phys and special mon. Its definitely scary and very restriciting, but I have not seen the evidence neccesary to ban it outright as of yet. I am more than happy to revisit this alongside potentially scrafty to remove a lot of the pressure fighting types put on the builder as of right now. Definitely something which isnt settled in my opinion.

2xTheTap: Do Nothing. Past this being a case of "is this SD or NP or mixed frog?," there's no reason to do anything here, as Toxicroak can be pressured pretty easily even despite not knowing its set at preview. Getting rid of it might free up building a bit by relieving some of the pressure on our Fighting checks, but that alone isn't a good enough reason to ban something for me.

tlenit: Do nothing. If I had to pick suspect test mon, its Archeops.
honestly not sure what to say. None of them too much for the tier. Top tier threats for sure, but still question mark what Toxicroak is doing on this slate. Went through on latest post Virizion and Roserade and thats pretty much all I have for them.

termi: Suspect. I nominated this one actually but I haven't seen a lot of people supporting a ban on this. The main reason I wanna keep a close eye on it and suspect it in the near future is because the strain the Fighting types put on you in the builder is crazy and I feel something has to go to make building balance without autolosing to Toxicroak or Gallade or whatever possible. NP Toxicroak especially is a problem imo, while it is not as consistent as a physical set, it beats several of its would-be defensive switchins like Palossand and Weezing, while turning Wisp Jelli from one of its best defensive checks into setup fodder. What sets it apart and puts it above Gallade and Scrafty imo is that its defensive typing and ability give it way more opportunity to break teams than Gallade on the one hand, and unlike Scrafty it does not need to click its setup move to become dangerous and has more immediate speed. Although I love using this mon I feel like it's ultimately not something we currently have the tools for, I'm just not sure enough of it yet to vote quickban.

Specs: Do not ban. Croak to me is like a Virizion, but the cracks actually start to show if you don't have the right move at the right time. If you don't have sucker on SD because you want knock for Colbur Palo for example, your offense mu really crumbles. And on NP if you want Shadow Ball for Palo + Weezing you're giving up either Focus Blast or Vacuum Wave, which can make or break your mu vs AV Guzz, Gigalith, and Regirock. Toxicroak is easily one of the best breakers in the tier (top 5 for sure), but I don't think it breaks teams well for me to vote Ban just yet.

Ktütverde: Do nothing. Definitely a scary mon, but it's fine imo. What makes it dangerous is that it can run two separate sets (SD and Nastyplot) equally viably and there's no way you can predict which one it is. And as you probably know, most checks to one set fall flat to the other one: weezing falls to NP, charizard and talonflame lose to SD (gunkshot nukes them), mesprit loses to SD (+2 suckerpunch), Sandaconda loses to NP, etc. Pair that with its incredible typing and ability dry skin and you have a mon that can setup easily on vaporeon, regirock, weezing. The thing is that there isn't so much to set up on, and that even a virtual setup bait like vaporeon can actually use wish while croak switches in and pass it to say Talonflame or weezing. And finally, all our glass cannons can RK croak easily: the two superfast fairies -whimiscott and ribombee- tank +2 suckerpunch and vaccum wave easily, Talonflame and charizard too, Passimian and Virizion too. I think we shouldnt underestimate croak but that it's not broken atm and will in my opinion become a valuable and healthy pokémon (for exemple once roserade leaves I'll be happy to have croak as a switchin to vaporeon).

ManOfMany: DO NOTHING. Toxicroak is a very strong pokemon but all of its sets have adequate counterplay in the tier. Swords Dance and other physical sets are consistently checked defensively by top pokemon including Weezing, Palossand and offensively by a list of threats too large to list. Nasty Plot sets have less clear defensive counterplay but lacking the immediate power of Life Orb Gunk Shot it is hard to see it as too overwhelming for the tier. No matter what Toxicroak set you run teams will naturally have ways to pressure it without too much problem.


Roserade is now banned from PU. Kris I apologize for jinxing the new year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 3, Guests: 0)

Top