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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
Throh has better defenses (and better att but only a tiny amount) thanks to it's higher hp, and it has knock off. Poli has better spatt and a water typing, so poli can wall things like sneasel and carracosta better or go offensive with a specs/rain dance set. But throh definitely is s rank thanks to it's better stats that help it better wall neutral attacks, and it doesn't have weaknesses to grass and electric, so it can take a hit from things like raichu.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Thanks for clearing it up for me
Leavanny from B+ to B
The presence of pawniard makes sticky web a lot harder to build a team around. If your opponent has a pawniard, you're almost better off just not getting up webs, and without sticky web leavanny loses its niche.
Kricketune from B- to C+
The same goes for kricketune, but the only things that kricketune does better than leavanny is taunt and endeavor. Against an opponent with a pawniard, kricketune is almost completely useless, as taunt, endeavor, and knock off are easy to play around until the sash is broken and it can be killed.
Whirlipede from B- to B
The whirlipede/misdreavus/pawniard core is very popular on offensive teams, as whirlipede is almost always able to get up two hazards or one hazard+endeavor. With its focus sash intact, it can stop many sweepers by taking a hit and endeavoring, and setting up hazards on the turn they attack.
The presence of pawniard makes sticky web a lot harder to build a team around. If your opponent has a pawniard, you're almost better off just not getting up webs, and without sticky web leavanny loses its niche.
Kricketune from B- to C+
The same goes for kricketune, but the only things that kricketune does better than leavanny is taunt and endeavor. Against an opponent with a pawniard, kricketune is almost completely useless, as taunt, endeavor, and knock off are easy to play around until the sash is broken and it can be killed.
Whirlipede from B- to B
The whirlipede/misdreavus/pawniard core is very popular on offensive teams, as whirlipede is almost always able to get up two hazards or one hazard+endeavor. With its focus sash intact, it can stop many sweepers by taking a hit and endeavoring, and setting up hazards on the turn they attack.
He is saying that every time Pawniard comes in, after you've set webs, it gets a free Swords Dance. Having priority to patch up the speed drop as well as being at +2 when forcing a switch is defenetly a blow for webs.
I know, but I'd argue that it's good enough on webs to make up how good it is against webs
Sneasel from A+ to S-
Any team without a poliwrath, throh, or carracosta is going to heavily struggle with sneasel. The definition of an S rank pokemon is high reward with low risk in using. Sneasel fits this. The worst case is that your opponent has multiple counters and the best thing sneasel can do is knock off a few items, that's low risk. But in many situations sneasel can get 2 or more kills if just one pokemon is weakened, which is a high reward. I don't think it should be fully s rank because its weakness to stealth rocks let it wear itself down with life orb recoil, and its three counters are common pokemon.
Any team without a poliwrath, throh, or carracosta is going to heavily struggle with sneasel. The definition of an S rank pokemon is high reward with low risk in using. Sneasel fits this. The worst case is that your opponent has multiple counters and the best thing sneasel can do is knock off a few items, that's low risk. But in many situations sneasel can get 2 or more kills if just one pokemon is weakened, which is a high reward. I don't think it should be fully s rank because its weakness to stealth rocks let it wear itself down with life orb recoil, and its three counters are common pokemon.
rip
there isn't really much to state as most of you will know why but
I'd say drop Chatot to like C because without Chatter it loses like a good 70% chance to sweep the enemy team, chatter was its best niche and one of the few reasons it was used so yeah losing it wasn't really too hot for the bird there especially because it already had some drawbacks, now I don't really see any reason at all to use it honestly.
I agree with chatot dropping to C/C-, without chatter the only things that justify its use over another special sweeper are STAB boomburst and access to encore.
Edit: I didn't put enough thought into this, and I agree that chatot should drop to around B/B-, not as low as C
Edit: I didn't put enough thought into this, and I agree that chatot should drop to around B/B-, not as low as C
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I disagree. Specs Chatot is a good set that hits extremely hard with Boomburst and has U-turn to escape its checks and counters, which is definitely better than a C-. I'm not sure what rank to put it in yet but I think everyone's forgetting that Chatot can run other sets too :<
I think Chatot deserves a ranking of B or B- based on the ranking system given:
"B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the PU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame."
Chatot's notable flaws are its speed stat (309 doesn't outspeed much and makes it easy to revenge kill) and its terrible bulk. However, its positive traits, like its base 92 SpA and its access to Boomburst make it usable, especially if you give it the support it needs. With Paralysis, Sticky Web and even Tailwind for example, Chatot can still work well by outspeeding the majority of (the unboosted) PU meta and hitting hard with Boomburst. A set I would recommend is U-Turn / Heat Wave / Boomburst / HP Ground or Fighting with Choice Specs.
"B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the PU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame."
Chatot's notable flaws are its speed stat (309 doesn't outspeed much and makes it easy to revenge kill) and its terrible bulk. However, its positive traits, like its base 92 SpA and its access to Boomburst make it usable, especially if you give it the support it needs. With Paralysis, Sticky Web and even Tailwind for example, Chatot can still work well by outspeeding the majority of (the unboosted) PU meta and hitting hard with Boomburst. A set I would recommend is U-Turn / Heat Wave / Boomburst / HP Ground or Fighting with Choice Specs.
banned it. check here for more info
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pu-suspect-vote-results.3530902/
Chatot is still good lol, like Scorp said people shouldn't forget that other effective sets that didn't make use of Chatter in the first place still exists. Choice Specs Chatot is a monster, Choice Scarf Chatot is a strong revenge killer and cleaner, and Life Orb Encore + Nasty Plot or Nasty Plot + 3 attacks is still great at breaking walls and sweeping slow teams. It should probably drop but not to C-. I think B+ would be fine.
Tbh, I find scarf really bad. Sub/encore is still annoying (although walled by ghosts), but scarf's only cool thing is being faster than scarfmime and rotom. Other than that, I've just found it mediocre in terms of power, bulk, and versatility. Can't post calcs because mobile, but it can't even kill 0/0 Jumpluff after rocks without a very high roll (18.8% chance to kill), and that's a fairly important mark. Chatot could fit right in at B-/B for the sub/encore and np sets, and maybe agility sets with probo support could be good,
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Now, this may sound like a joke promotion, but I am asking for Pancham to go from Unlisted to C+/B-. B- might be a stretch, but you have to realize how strong and bulky Eviolite Pancham, Iron Fist, Bulk Up, Drain Punch, Knock Off, Thunder Punch is. It beats Sneasel, it beats Throh (unless Circle Throw), it beats a lot of things with it's great coverage and hits hard, along with great recovery and power with Iron Fist Drain Punch. It survives Specs Poli Hydro (it does 72% max roll) and OHKOs at +2. It has great set up oppurtunity on a lot of leads, and forces switches on stuff like Sneasel, Rotom-F, Probo, Pawniard, etc. all which have attacks Pancham can eat. While Knock Off is not stab, it hits Ghosts and cripples others on switch-ins and still deals damage. Pancham has lack-luster Speed, but his power and bulk after getting a bulk-up or two allow him to regain his HP back with Drain Punch.
Also I have to say, move Servine from C+ to B/B+. One of the biggest wall breakers in the tier. This thing has almost 0 switch-ins. It can OHKO resists at +2/+4. If not, it can cripple them with Glare on the switch. OHKOs Poli after rocks with no boosts, and is pretty bulky with an Eviolite, with Giga Drain to use the boosts to gain it's HP back. HP Ice gives it great coverage. I use this on multiple teams, and it never fails. It isn't even that slow, since it comes from the Serperior line (which is fast). It remains a huge threat to teams and has gotten 5/6 man sweeps quite a few times. It's funny watching them switch something like Ninetales or Chatot and get 1-shot by a Leaf Storm. It also is a check to Poli, because even though Specs Poli has Ice Beam, it outspeeds and 1-shots (no rocks iirc) and I am also fairly certain it lives an Ice Beam (doesn't take it well though). With Bouff gone it is great. I can't see it becoming top rank because there are ways to take care of it (Sap Sipper Zeb namely) but it definitely deserves a higher rank. Top tier B-rank sounds just in my opinion.
Edit: I think Chatot should drop to B/B-. It hits hard and still has good moves it can take advantage of, but it doesn't warrant top-rank B even with the fact that pokemon up there seem to do better in the current meta, especially because a big reason why people used chatot was only for chatter hax and the fact that it was a great flying type STAB
Also I have to say, move Servine from C+ to B/B+. One of the biggest wall breakers in the tier. This thing has almost 0 switch-ins. It can OHKO resists at +2/+4. If not, it can cripple them with Glare on the switch. OHKOs Poli after rocks with no boosts, and is pretty bulky with an Eviolite, with Giga Drain to use the boosts to gain it's HP back. HP Ice gives it great coverage. I use this on multiple teams, and it never fails. It isn't even that slow, since it comes from the Serperior line (which is fast). It remains a huge threat to teams and has gotten 5/6 man sweeps quite a few times. It's funny watching them switch something like Ninetales or Chatot and get 1-shot by a Leaf Storm. It also is a check to Poli, because even though Specs Poli has Ice Beam, it outspeeds and 1-shots (no rocks iirc) and I am also fairly certain it lives an Ice Beam (doesn't take it well though). With Bouff gone it is great. I can't see it becoming top rank because there are ways to take care of it (Sap Sipper Zeb namely) but it definitely deserves a higher rank. Top tier B-rank sounds just in my opinion.
Edit: I think Chatot should drop to B/B-. It hits hard and still has good moves it can take advantage of, but it doesn't warrant top-rank B even with the fact that pokemon up there seem to do better in the current meta, especially because a big reason why people used chatot was only for chatter hax and the fact that it was a great flying type STAB
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Agreeing with people who raise Servine from C+ to the B rank.
Leaf Storm Contrary is an extremely big threat to many strong pokemon up there, including Poliwrath.
It reaches strong bulk with Eviolite and with its high speed to assist its sweeping, it really does deserve more than a "niche."
Should Staravia be raised from Unlisted to D or C rank? It's decently strong with Reckless and can assist teams with Intimidate.
My first game using Servine: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-217672433 where Servine easily does a quick sweep and takes an Articuno Ice beam.
Excuse my rating... Using my new account.
Leaf Storm Contrary is an extremely big threat to many strong pokemon up there, including Poliwrath.
It reaches strong bulk with Eviolite and with its high speed to assist its sweeping, it really does deserve more than a "niche."
Should Staravia be raised from Unlisted to D or C rank? It's decently strong with Reckless and can assist teams with Intimidate.
My first game using Servine: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-217672433 where Servine easily does a quick sweep and takes an Articuno Ice beam.
Excuse my rating... Using my new account.
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Staravia is a terrible pokemon, outclassed offensively by the likes of Dodrio, and has nothing to offer if defensive ( Eviolite Defensive doesn't make everything good )
+ Don't post replays of you sweeping a noob, there's no point doing that.
Keep Staravia Unranked.
As for Servine, i can see him being B-, but not higher. By virtue of a pretty eh speed & typing, it remains far from uncounterable, not mentionning the rise of Jumpluff which can easily RK Servine if he isn't at full health, or Regice who can easily take a +2 Leaf Storm. It is a decent pokemon with quite a lot of flaws, it can sure sweep, but it remains far from unstoppable in most cases. Servine for B-
Update time!
Ninetales from A+ to S
Sneasel from A+ to S
Jumpluff from A to A+
Chatot from A- to B+
Floatzel from B+ to A-
Stoutland from B+ to A-
Clefairy from B to B-
Rampardos from B- to C+
Solrock from B- to C+
Servine from C+ to B-
Carvanha from D to unlisted
Magmar from D to unlisted
Pineco from D to unlisted
Porygon from D to unlisted
Shelgon from D to unlisted
Yanma from D to unlisted
If you disagree with any of the D rank NFE's that were removed, keep in mind that not only do these Pokemon have to be useful, but there also has to be a reason to use them over other similar options, and also that they're justifiable to use a teamslot on.
Ninetales from A+ to S
Sneasel from A+ to S
Jumpluff from A to A+
Chatot from A- to B+
Floatzel from B+ to A-
Stoutland from B+ to A-
Clefairy from B to B-
Rampardos from B- to C+
Solrock from B- to C+
Servine from C+ to B-
Carvanha from D to unlisted
Magmar from D to unlisted
Pineco from D to unlisted
Porygon from D to unlisted
Shelgon from D to unlisted
Yanma from D to unlisted
If you disagree with any of the D rank NFE's that were removed, keep in mind that not only do these Pokemon have to be useful, but there also has to be a reason to use them over other similar options, and also that they're justifiable to use a teamslot on.
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Just curious what lead to the Cleafairy drop.. not that at matters too much, im just interested to know. Thanks
Relaxed Dedenne
I COULD BE BANNED!
E Rank eh? I found something that can help it, I think this set should be about D- Rank because it gets outclassed
Remember Me ;; (Carnivine) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Bug Bite
- Return
This might seem wierd but this thing has a piss poor Physical Move Set and i thought this would make the most of Stab Banded Power Whip.
100 Base attack in PU isn't terrible. 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 402-474 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Return vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Ninetales: 192-227 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 212-250 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Remember Me ;; (Carnivine) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Bug Bite
- Return
This might seem wierd but this thing has a piss poor Physical Move Set and i thought this would make the most of Stab Banded Power Whip.
100 Base attack in PU isn't terrible. 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 402-474 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Return vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Ninetales: 192-227 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 212-250 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That may seem usable, but there is no reason to use this over leafeon. Leafeon is slightly stronger, much more physically bulky, and importantly has speed, which is important for outspeeding pokes like non-scarf rotom and heatmor who can other wise revenge kill carnavine. Secondly, choice band isnt even leafeons best set, as it can make use of its bulk and utilise swords dance, letting it sweep, and most of those moves carnivine has are horrible to be locked into, there are tons of grass resists in the tier, and bug bite is just weak (leafeon gets x-scissor)E Rank eh? I found something that can help it, I think this set should be about D- Rank because it gets outclassed
Remember Me ;; (Carnivine) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Bug Bite
- Return
This might seem wierd but this thing has a piss poor Physical Move Set and i thought this would make the most of Stab Banded Power Whip.
100 Base attack in PU isn't terrible. 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 402-474 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Return vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Ninetales: 192-227 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Carnivine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 212-250 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Why is Rampardos moving down? In my opinion, that thing is just as good as Aurorus. While Aurorus is more bulky, Ramp is significantly stronger and has the advantage of having no switch-ins (whereas Aurorus has Grumpig, Piloswine, and Munchlax) and also doesn't take life orb recoil. Its wallbreaking prowess alone is spectacular- OHKOing standard Throh and offensive Poli with Zen Headbutt (yes, this is true), getting a guaranteed 2HKO on Defensive Carracosta with earthquake after stealth rock, 2HKOing Lickilicky, and 2HKOing offensive Tangela with rock slide or fire blast/punch if it wants. It suffers from no 4MSS and has all the moves it needs to function- Rock Slide, Zen Headbutt, Earthquake (or Superpower), and Fire Punch/Fire Blast.
A rock polish set is also viable (although only setting up when the opponent death fodders a random low health pokemon), being nearly as strong as +2 Barbaracle without any boosts and also having the advantage of beating Poliwrath/Throh.
Also the Mold Breaker lead set has always been good, especially with these Probopass everywhere.
A rock polish set is also viable (although only setting up when the opponent death fodders a random low health pokemon), being nearly as strong as +2 Barbaracle without any boosts and also having the advantage of beating Poliwrath/Throh.
Also the Mold Breaker lead set has always been good, especially with these Probopass everywhere.
carnivine does have an advantage over leafeon in sleep powder, but there is still no reason to use it over Jumpluff or Victreebel.
Rampardos is just not bulky enough to really do much, nor is it fast enough. Aurorus has great coverage but bulk with the speed. Can we just talk about how good Freeze Dry is? Anyways, if you are running a Rock Polish Ramp, I recommend using a SS pokemon instead. While you outspeed Throh, you do not outspeed Poli. It's nothing more but a suicide lead. It can't take priority or damage from pretty much anything relevant in the tier.