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Tournament PUWC VI Format Discussion

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PU World Cup VI is on the horizon, and we’re looking for feedback on certain things before the tour begins.
  • How many teams should we have this year? For reference, we had 16 teams last year; is this good or should we change it?

  • What tiers should be included? We’ve done all SV for two years in a row, which has gone over well enough, but we still want to give people a choice here. Right now, the PU moderation team is considering the following options: 8 SV, 5 SV + 1 SS + 1 SM + 1 ORAS, and 4 SV + 1 SS + 1 SM + 1 ORAS + 1 BW. Please note that if neither of the other two options receive enough support, we will stick with all SV.

  • People also seem to prefer pools to weeks, so should we keep doing pools for the first round?
Share your thoughts or proposals about the above and anything else you'd like to add; don't use this thread to suggest different tour ideas and keep the discussion civil, thanks!
 
Personally, I think PU old gens are genuinely incredible and should attract a wider pool of lower tier enthusiasts.

As much as I love SV PU, this leads to a lot of building strain for a lot of territories and 8 SV PU is just too much imho.

With regards to pools, I like that idea.

This sounds good to me:

4 SV + 1 SS + 1 SM + 1 ORAS + 1 BW
 
PU old gens are still developing at a nice pace, adding them to PUWC would make all those even better while keeping it competitive for the current gen Mainers
I support the 4 SV + old gens until BW format
Regarding the number of teams, I'd say to not really change it but rather make it with whoever gets a lineup ready, if we have 16 teams or 19 teams, so be it. The more the better
I'm a fan of pools format so I'd like that we keep it as well. Weeks take longer and can get really tiring real fast
 
I personally don't see a lot of reason to change a working formula for PUWC. One of the major rationales behind WC being all current gen was it's the best time for development for the tier and SV PU still needs some serious development.

The oldgen focused tier comes right after this one and oldgens haven't felt a lack of rep. You know me, I love me some oldgens, but this just feels like it's an idea for the sake of change rather than because we need it.

For the sake of if oldgen inclusion does end up being the supported option - better to include all the preview gens as a package imo, so including up to BW.

Also yes pools are way better than weeks still.
 
As someone from a country with weak PU representation overall, I can't really support adding oldgens. There would be minimal team support for a gen where say germany has 1 bw player. Even worse if you got 0 gen mainers, much less pu gen mainers in your country, in which case you will essentially be accounting for a certain loss every week or a lost group.

As Aurist said, I don't think there is a need to change a working formula, especially this close to the end of the gen's lifespan. SV PU basically hit a reset button right now, needs proper development, and will make for more exciting matches for those reasons. Adding oldgens will give certain areas unfair advantages and will for that reason also make certain groups insanely boring to watch.

8 SV
 
Aurist said:
One of the major rationales behind WC being all current gen was it's the best time for development for the tier and SV PU still needs some serious development.
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I agree with that but, as Joe said, I also think 8 slots is a bit too much.
It is usually very hard to find 8 people per country who have some knowledge in this tier and are willing to build for themselves, so it often comes down to a group of 2-3 people that will build (or at least do most of the work) for the whole team, and I think reducing the number of slots they have to build for can increase the quality of the teams, as they will have more time to test their ideas and won't be forced to re-use many times to gain some time.

I think 4-5 slots is well enough to give the tier a fresh look, and adding old gens makes it feel more like a world cup of PU to me, where we test a country on it's knowledge of PU in general and not just on it's knowledge of the 9th generation.

Corvy said:
gen where say germany has 1 bw player.
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feaniix was goated in BW PU a few years ago... And didn't jaajgko play it too ?

Tbh I think full SV just rewards having 1-2 good builders and then SV mercenaries, while old gens rewards people actually getting into learning the PUs, which is good imo

And also I don't think it's that hard to find people playing old gens OUs that are willing to try a low tier of that old gen for a wcup, idk if it's just in France or not but we always have some people interested in it

Oh and I don't really like the argument that "now is not the time to change it" because when will it be the time ? Say in 1 year there will be a new generation, we won't change the format because we need the gen10pu to develop. Then 1 year later there will be a DLC, we won't change the format for the tier to develop. Then the next year there will be some big shifts, etc etc...

Also that might be a hot take but when did "we don't have a lot of PU players so please change the format so that the tournaments doesn't reward having an active PU community" became the norm ? lol
I get that everyone wants to get a fair chance in the tour but I feel like it's normal for countries that have tried to develop their playerbase for years to have a better shot

That being said, I hope the tournament will make as much people happy as possible, and imo diversity is a bit more fun than full SV so that would be what I would prefer to see personally
 
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I think the format should stay with 8 SV slots. For countries that don’t have many PU players, it’s extremely difficult to find players for the old gens. If the decision is made to include older gens, it should only go down to BW.

Especially now, with the meta having changed and most players trying to adapt to it, adding older gens would just make things more chaotic. Another important point is that there aren’t many players who enjoy playing PU, since the tier isn’t as popular as the others.
 
Just to reiterate my point, the format isn't here to support people who don't know PU well.

PUWC should reflect the general levels of PU understanding and skill from each region and from there comes the competition.

If it's just 'we got 7 clickers and one builder' for the World Cup, clicking is being tested more than PU knowledge and skill.

Old Gens gives an opportunity for a more profound and interesting depth of competition as well as including some of the best old gen metagames on the site.

I know that it's unfortunate for regions with fewer players but as you just mentioned, SV PU isn't as popular as the others... so let's bring the incredibly fun and cool old gens into the mix!

Last post I'll make, sorry for waffle.
 
xSuko said:
Another important point is that there aren’t many players who enjoy playing PU, since the tier isn’t as popular as the others.
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This applies to SV pu as well, and the main reason why I thing adding gens 5-8 will help the tour. It's quite hard to find 8 people who are all interested in playing the same tier.

I agree with points made above about 8 SV pu encouraging "pilots + 1-2 builders", and I don't think this is what we want the tour to be. If most of your slots are pilots who aren't building their own teams then dropping the SV slots from 8 to 4 doesn't change the "metagame development" aspect of the tour (I personally think saying that we need this tour to develop the meta is a ludicrous argument anyway).

Also from my experience having more tiers (within reason) actually encourages activity and creativity amongst the team. Instead of complaining that you won't have a builder / mainer for a certain tier, why not come together as a team and learn / solve the tier yourselves? That's the most fun aspect of tours like these from my experience. What happened to the warrior spirit?
 
Wasn't gonna weigh in because my interest in this tour wavers a bit but I was talking with friends and I have an idea?

I wanna preface by saying I think both the 8 sv and 4 sv 1ss-bw formats have merit but, with concerns over certain regions adjusting to half of the slots being old gens and other concerns about the stress building 8 sv slots can bring i think a good compromise is doing
(5SV 1SS 1SM 1ORAS) or inotherwords only doing fairy gens for the olds.
To me this helps because it keeps the tour as majority SV PU and still allows people to build and test multiple tiers without things getting stale.
I think this format is best, curious if im way off tho.
 
  • Agree in favour of making the shift from 8 SV.
  • Prefer 5SV-1SS-1SM-1ORAS. I think BW is different enough mechanics wise to warrant it being excluded, and that it would be comparitively tougher for every region to field someone half competent. Besides, by keeping majority of the slots CG, the teams that were good before will still be good. Relevant to note that other subforumWCs usually stick to mastersgens when including oldgens (with the exception of LC, which includes all its oldgens).
  • Personally prefer weeks to pools. There's a certain hype aspect with regards to pools, with the third weekend being one of the most fun experiences of the tour, but weeks as a whole is more structured and healthy imo. Easier to manage 1 game per week both as a player/manager.
 
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I think 5 SV Slots > 4 SV Slots just because we had some pretty important shifts, and I think this tour will be really integral to the development of the tier. I don't think cutting down from 8 SV -> 5 SV is going to cut development of the tier by much if at all, but I still think 8 SV would be ideal? If not, PUWC being the "Fairy gen" tour (SV-ORAS) kinda makes it feel like PUWC is staying faithful to its nature as a more "modern" tournament at the very least.

DD Joe said:
As much as I love SV PU, this leads to a lot of building strain for a lot of territories and 8 SV PU is just too much imho.
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This is the opposite of what happens usually, WC teams should work together and be a cohesive team as is the nature of a jerk-y tour. Working together as a team to "solve" SVPU is what made the tour so interesting to me and I imagine others. Strain on the builder speaks more to team chemistry than the format or inner-workings of a full CG tournament tbh.

Excited for PUWC :heart:
 
this tour coincides with the later weeks of scl so i really don't think it needs a large number of sv slots for metagame development to be sufficient during this period, besides, you get diminishing returns on this front the more sv slots you have, and last year there were quite a lot of scl teams being reused here because it's hard when u have 2/3 builders to make 24 good teams over 3 weeks...
i like 4sv + ss-bw, don't think it is actually that hard to pick up one of the preview gens and become somewhat viable tbh. everyone and their mother has these megapastes with 700 oras teams anyway so it's not like you need to learn to build or anything...
 
any point i was gonna make has already been made so not gonna make a long post here, but i agree that scl will be enough meta development and that all sv really encourages the roster building idea of a couple builders and filling the rest with mercenaries. with regard to regions and having the people, there are also plenty of people who have explicitly not signed up for past iterations of puwc because oldgens were excluded and therefore there was nothing present that they were interested in playing. pools are vastly preferable to weeks. don't really care about the number of teams but we def shouldn't cut any if we can help it, if there's a team that has interest in forming and they have the people then fuck it why not (i know leni mentioned a nordics EU team, idk what europe signups are like and how bad this would fuck big EU over but i don't see a reason why not)

4SV + SS + SM + ORAS + BW
Pools
16 Teams I Guess
 
I think adding old gens in PU, so 5 SV + SS/SM/ORAS or 4 SV + SS/SM/ORAS/BW, is the best format for this puwcup.

I don't think with 8 slots u will really see a better development of the tier than 4 or 5 SV slots. It will create lot of redundancy and doesn't help for builder to stay creative all the tournament. Especially when some countries doesn't have more than 2/3 builders in SV. My point is 4 or 5 SV are already enough to develop the metagame, 8 slots will create a "too much" feelings who can kills the creativity, and without creavity I don't think a meta can evolve.

Old gens PU are also really interesting and participates in what PU deserve investment imo. Also I would say I prefer to see the best country of being able to master, and SV, and old gens, as the best country of 2025 in PU, more than only SV

Gl everyone for PU Wcup !
 
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I'd like to suggest the following:
2x SV, SS, SM, ORAS, BW, DPP, ADV, GSC, RBY

My reasoning is:
- These tiers are all active, fun, and well supported
- Learning new tiers is fun and brings teams together
- Nothing like getting new people into tiers to build them up
- We've all played enough SV for a lifetime

I hope you will consider this proposal.
 
I’ve already expressed that I might be skipping this tournament this year due to irl, but I still feel compelled to express some of my thoughts about the format since this has been a very important tournament for me and PU as a whole, and I am well aware that others share a similar sentiment.

PUWC has been one of the few WC tournaments that have managed to exist successfully in lower tiers, often being regarded as a fun and welcoming experience to many different players from all over the world. The winners of this tournament are perfect example of these in the last 2 years, and it has been true to bigger and smaller regions. I do not think that it is a coincidence that this has happened due to all SV.

I’d like to address some of the issues with all SV that have been mentioned, since I agree with some and disagree with others:

-I do not think that development is an argument in favor of all SV, I believe we get more than enough with a possible 5 slots + SCL + whatever other PU tour is going on atm.

-From personal experience and from a smaller region, PUWC with old gens is even more 1 or 2 mainers + pilots than all SV. With all SV, there is an even playing field for players to test with each other, come up with ideas, test on ladder, watch current tournaments, all of which is much more involved and rewarding than being put into a tier you might not know, being passed stuff every week and being isolated from most of the team in terms of possible prep. You might be asking now what is the issue with this if all other non wc team tours are like this already if a non mainer ends up in a gen they don’t immediately know, but that is the point! The fact that players are not ever stuck in this spot (which isn’t always bad since PU old gens are great) but it is inevitable that a lot of people from smaller regions are forced into old gens they don’t know, with not enough resources and with not enough help, all of which inevitably leads to them having a bad view of the old gen they’re playing. This has happened time and time again

-My next point was already mentioned briefly in the previous point: smaller regions simply do not have the players to fill in most old gens. You can ask people to be adventurous and to give stuff and try and this is great and I agree that that can be a worthwhile experience, but it is a much more common occurrence that you will see a new player playing a staple SM or BW player in PU and they simply get steamrolled and skill checked due to playing someone much more knowledgeable than them. Meanwhile, we’ve had winning regions who’ve never had previous success in PUWC before this change dominating much bigger pools. This is no coincidence whatsoever. You can ask people to come together as a team and that can lead to really wonderful results, but this is always gonna be a much more fun and rewarding experience when you know that you and your opponents are at an even field. Also, way less discouraging if something goes wrong, since you know that you can close the gap easier than having to fight teams who have 50 pastes over you.

I also feel like it’s a bit disingenuous to express that others should be more open to learning new things when they haven’t particularly dealt with the struggles that smaller regions have often dealt with. What am I meant to do as a manager of a smaller region if my players are not as “adventurous” as I want them to be? I cannot go look for other options. Even if it results that I have to provide pastes to all of my players in a solo SV tournament, I at least know that the tools they have at their disposal are much more widely available, and when people have a bigger chance to communicate with each other, they are way more likely to.

Initially in my post I mentioned how the personality of this tournament has led to it being separated from other iterations of WC, and succeeded due to its ability to be more inclusive to the accessibility of players all over the world. I think going back to a more old gens oriented format is a step backwards and will possibly lead to a lot of the same teams steamrolling the tournament, as has been the case in most WCs that aren’t PUWC. PU grants players the opportunity to engage in old gens in many other ways all throughout the year, but for this tournament, and to the regions that sign up, I’d like to give everyone a chance to have fun and win it all, since that has been the vision we had for PUWC when we made this change 2 years ago. Keep it all SV. Maybe then I’ll be irresponsible and sign up anyways.
 
Django said:
I'd like to suggest the following:
2x SV, SS, SM, ORAS, BW, DPP, ADV, GSC, RBY

My reasoning is:
- These tiers are all active, fun, and well supported
- Learning new tiers is fun and brings teams together
- Nothing like getting new people into tiers to build them up
- We've all played enough SV for a lifetime

I hope you will consider this proposal.
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To add old post, if theres any Nordics (Denmark - Norway - Sweden - Finland - Iceland) players that are interested of the tournament, please reach out to me directly! We have solid base of players, but we are definitely looking always for new faces. It does not matter if you are already established player or a newer face to smogon/tier. We will be happily looking forward knowing you!

To add something relevant to tiers chosen and so on, personally speaking I would make it all the way down to DPP. We still play whatever format is being decided though happily
 
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