Raikou (Attacking Lead)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

ITT HYPOCRISY

So we were messing around in C&C joking about what the next dumb Anti-Lead would be, and discussion settled on Raikou. Unfortunately for them, they were WRONG. I've been testing this since that discussion (on P-O obviously), and while I agree that the caliber of opponent on P-O isn't exactly optimal, this is definitely a legitimate lead with significant midgame potential.


[SET]
Name: Attacking Lead
Move 1: Thunderbolt
Move 2: Hidden Power Ice
Move 3: Extrasensory / Shadow Ball / Aura Sphere
Move 4: Extremespeed
Nature: Rash
Item: Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

Comments:
- Thunderbolt provides solid STAB, 2HKOing many faster leads with Thunderbolt + Extremespeed and slower leads with 2 Thunderbolts.
- HP Ice hits Dragonite, Flygon, Gliscor, Celebi, Shaymin, etc. Extrasensory provides semi-redundant coverage, but guarantees the 2HKO on Machamp and the OHKO on Breloom over HP Ice. It also has a marginally amusing chance of hax, allowing Raikou to get annoying Flinches against some leads every once in a while. Shadow Ball guarantees victory against Azelf leads, and also provides super-effective coverage against Rotom-A. Aura Sphere is an alternative to hit Heatran harder, though Heatran is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, but it also provides crucial coverage against Tyranitar. It also hits Mamoswine, fwiw, and gives decent neutral coverage.
- Rash is a solid nature- the only Pokemon between 330 and 361 Spe are Jolly Ape and Timid Gengar, and Ape needs 252 Atk and LO to OHKO with Close Combat, so the drop in speed doesn't really hurt. Meanwhile, Rash Raikou is packing more SAtk than even Timid Heatran.
- Defenses are solid- even with a -SDef nature, Raikou cannot be OHKOed by anything short of LO Heatran Fire Blast/Earth Power. Shucatran's Fire Blast maxes out at 80.1%, while Roserade Leaf Storm maxes out at 90.7% damage. Even Starmie's Timid LO Hydro Pump deals 87% damage at max. On the physical side, Machamp can only deal 83.2% max with DynamicPunch, so basically either powerful item-boosted STAB moves or Earthquakes are the only way to kill this thing. As a note- Aerodactyl's non-LO EQ (lead EQ) fails to OHKO Raikou.

Additional Comments
- HP Grass is available to hit Swampert, but it fails to OHKO the common lead Swampert while Swampert OHKOs in return with Earthquake.
- HP Fire is heavily discouraged, as it reduces your Speed and causes you to simply tie speed with Jirachi and friends, rather than outspeed them.
- Notable leads that cause it trouble are Swampert and Metagross, as they can simply OHKO with Earthquake. Metagross is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, though, so if it chooses to lay down SR, Raikou can beat it. If running HP Grass, Shuca Berry becomes a notable alternative, as it loses to Machamp 50% of the time (confusion), but kills Metagross 100% of the time barring Explosion.

 

[Curtains]

I think shuca berry is a good slash because you lure in enemy flygon. Metagross also can't touch you anymore and gets 2hkoed. With shuca gyarados becomes a great partner because you stop machamp from ruining your fun.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'll actually consider slashing it. I mentioned it in AC because it has a couple notable uses, but decided not to slash it because it gives you a chance to lose to Machamp and Roserade. Still, seems interesting enough. I'd like to hear a little bit of input on slashing Shuca Berry.

 

[twash]

I used to use Jolteon as a lead, obviously its Speed is helpful because it lacked priority, and I also used Magnet Rise on Jolteon to help me against Metagross and Swampert (plus it's useful though out the game against Grounds). I haven't tested Raikou so have no idea if Magnet Rise would work, it is just kind of a follow-up idea that might be worth testing, if you can find room for it. Although, the previously mentioned Shuca Berry might be more suited.

 

[Eggbert]

Inferior machamp, no thanks.

Shuca and HP grass are much better than lum HP ice. In exchange for beating machamp only 50% of the time, you can beat swampert and metagross who are more common combined then machamp. Even if you lose, a 50% machamp is easy prey for anything faster. Roserade and smeargle aren't too problematic. You break their sash while they spore, they get 1 hazard, then you KO them. Aura sphere is not too useful, it doesn't KO heatran or ttar and you have to switch out of ttar anyway. HP ice still could be slashed because you lure and KO flygon.

EDIT: Another thing you will find is that this also loses to most azelf. Colbur survives t-bolt + espeed and can SR then boom. DSazelf is faster and gets light screen up. CBazelf also beats you. Trickscarf locks you to t-bolt then can bring in something like tyranitar.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

HP Grass is garbage. Without HP Ice, you're going to be absolutely helpless against a huge portion of the metagame, since Dragonite, Flygon, Celebi, Shaymin, etc basically give 0 shits about your attack. I also would rather actually beat Roserade and Smeargle than let Raikou get slept and become useless until it lugs its ass out of bed. There's a reason I didn't slash either of the two.

Basically, you go "here, lose to multiple top 10 leads in order to beat one mediocre one". No thanks.

I'll admit the point about Azelf somewhat, but "that's how it goes". Colbur was designed BY ME to be fucking awesome against stuff like this, so "herp derp" there. And if TrickScarf tricks me a Scarf, now I've got a free revenge killer and they don't have SR.

 

[Eggbert]

HP Grass is garbage. Without HP Ice, you're going to be absolutely helpless against a huge portion of the metagame, since Dragonite, Flygon, Celebi, Shaymin, etc basically give 0 shits about your attack. I also would rather actually beat Roserade and Smeargle than let Raikou get slept and become useless until it lugs its ass out of bed.

Basically, you go "here, lose to multiple top 10 leads in order to beat one mediocre one". No thanks.

HP ice or not, celebi and shaymin still beat you. It only 3HKOs celebi and has a terrible chance of 2HKOing 6 Hp no lefties shaymin. As I said, HP works with shuca against flygon.

Multiple top ten leads? You get a 50% chance of "losing" to machamp, who is easily revenge killed by nearly anything on an offensive team. Roserade doesn't even get two layers. That's it really. In return, you beat two of the most common leads and become much to difficult to OHKO.

Well good job. Because now it's one of the more common azelf and it completely beats this lead. Who runs the sash one anyway with all the machamp. You don't get SR either, they can go back and set it up, and you probably lose some momentum.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Machamp is the #2 lead. I will always want better odds against him than against Swampert or whatever. Lum Berry is the definite way to go with a slash on Shuca for beating Metagross and luring and eliminating Flygon so damned well. Also, SDS is right, HPGrass is garbage on this thing. You really want the better matchup against Dragonite, Gliscor, and other Grass-type Pokemon (not Roserade, who is weak to Extrasensory).

 

[AccidentalGreed]

No matter. A lead will always have a counter or pivot of some sort, like Aerodactyl if he mispredicts incorrectly against Swampert or Roserade. If the lead is Swampert or by all means a Pokemon that "forces" Raikou to use HP Grass, it thus brings up the advantages of teammates. By all means, use a teammate that beats those Pokemon. SubSeed Celebi can set up a Substitute while Swampert switches, or Shaymin and Sceptile can just flat out OHKO it while resisting Earthquake and Waterfall/Surf.

Just because a Pokemon has trouble with a few doesn't mean that it should necessarily sacrifice a portion of its usability for those few, such like Heatran or Celebi when it has to choose a usable Hidden Power. Swampert's easy to deal with, and it doesn't require a big deal of dramatic changes to defeat (Slap on that Grass-type move!). Raikou should not dramatically alter its strategy JUST for Swampert; it has more than a few Pokemon to deal with if it does run HP Grass.


Which is why things like Aerial Ace on Gliscor is handy for Machamp, but nearly unnecessary.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Due to the comment about Azelf being a twat, I dug a little deeper into Raikou's movepool. Shadow Ball is now second slash on the third moveslot, since it hits Rotom-A hardest, and guarantees the 2HKO against all forms of Azelf. It also provides a little utility against the bulkier Psychics, I suppose. Uxie and friends, mainly.

 

[Eggbert]

I was advocating shuca mainly, and mentioned HP grass just because it allows you to beat pert. Shuca lets you beat metagross, and lure to lure flygon. That's it. I just though adding HP grass with shuca to beat swampert would be somewhat useful, as celebi and shaymin beat you regardless of HP ice or not (celebi is 3HKOd, twaves you, ect. shaymin is also 3HKOd and KOs with EP), and you already 2HKO nite. But yea, HP ice is better and you can throw something like breloom to beat swampert. It doesn't dramatically alter the strategy with shuca already. To sum it up: shuca seems like a good option for metagross and flygon, with hp grass as a lesser option for pert.

Completely beating metagross and luring flygon is probably more useful than getting a guarantee on one lead who can be easily revenge killed. VS machamp- turn 1 you extrasensory bringing it to about 50-40%, they d-punch, leaving you at about 20% Turn 2, you attempt to extrasenory, they d-punch. 50% of the time, you win. The other time, they are left at 50% Then you bring in anything, heatran, gyarados, whatever and KO it... I'd rather lure and beat flygon (with flygon eliminated, your own dragonite can sweep) and metagross and tank earthpowers from heatran later on.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Overall, I'd have to say that Lum Berry looks like the superior option. There are other ways of dealing with Swampert and Mamoswine (I haven't seen one of these in ages though). Machamp is a much more problematic pokemon-- destroying Machamp should take priority for most teams.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Besides, four things happen when Flygon attacks Raikou.

1: Flygon is locked into Earthquake. SETUP TIME???
2: Flygon is locked into Outrage. SETUP TIME 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO (alternately just hp ice it with something or meteor mash it or whatever)
3: Flygon U-turns and I get to hit whatever comes in. This is the most common bit, since it guarantees that Raikou won't be killing Flygon and it also allows them to scout the switch should Raikou switch out.
4: Flygon isn't actually scarfed and I blast it into next week with HP Ice. "whoopsy".

I would only run Shuca Berry if I absolutely needed Flygon dead, and even then, it's not that good at killing it. I mean, Scarf U-turn does a good 25-29% to Raikou, and if you combine that with any form of residual damage, that means when Flygon next comes in, it's probably going to kill you with EQ anyway (54%-63.7% damage through Shuca). Shuca is unreliable, and only helps you in very specific circumstances against specific foes who bring Scarf Flygon in against a 100% lead Raikou and Earthquake first. Lum Berry guarantees the win against Machamp with Extrasensory, it guarantees the win against Smeargle and Roserade, and it can also come in handy later on in the game if it's non-busted against some opponents. It can let you absorb a Thunder Wave from Celebi and hit it with HP Ice. It can shrug off random bullshithax from Flamethrower or Ice Beam or something. It can do a number of useful things. Shuca Berry only works when your opponent attacks your *full hp* Raikou with their Ground attacks, and even then, "eh".

 

[Eggbert]

Yea, you are right. I just saw the use of beating a common revenge killer but they will likely u-turn predicting a switch anyway...

 

[Chou Toshio]

Is it really worth talking about Flygon in the lead position anyway? A lead's primary purpose is to beat other leads. Azelf or Infernape can be fucked by a first turn Scarf-Tar switch in . . . that doesn't make them unprepared leads. IE.

Flygon has little relevance to this lead Raikou, as Flygon frankly sucks as a lead. No SR, No Taunt, No priority, and the only way it gets respectable speed is scarf. :/

 

[Eggbert]

No it was if Flygon showed up to revenge kill raikou or if it switched in before raikou was able to KO something in the lead spot. Normal azelf being beaten by scarftar does make it less wanted though.

EDIT: Yea, that's what I realized. No one is going to lock themselves on a risky move this early game on something that is nearly certain to switch.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Actually, it was overwhelmingly common for Flygon to come in after Raikou did its thing. What was significantly less common was the opponent bothering to Earthquake right off the bat. They U-turned basically 100% of the time when they brought Raikou in on Flygon, and at that point, what's Shuca helping anyway?

 

[RaikouLover]

Why would anyone use this? This is like one of those sets that *can* work but I wouldn't really bother using Raikou for this role when hes much better at sweeping with Calm Mind, revenge killing with a Choice Item, or being a moderately durable fast special tank. Rather than clinging to "this is outclassed by Pokemon X" its more like why would I choose Raikou for this role, or better yet if I'm choosing Raikou as a pokemon why do I want to do this with it?

In regards to midgame significance, this is hardly good midgame. You can't boost anything. Your extremespeed is piss weak. You are now slower than two pokemon you commonly can revenge kill with great efficiency (Infernape, Gengar, and you aren't even speed tying Starmie who you OHKO), and you can't even think about taking special hits with your Rash nature... Just why?

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"because it's good"

It does tons of damage in the lead slot and then threatens stuff later. It's actually a good attacking lead. Why would I rather use Machamp as a lead when I could use it as a sub attacker midgame, or as a Choice Band user, or as a Bulk Up user? Why would I rather use Azelf as a lead when I can use it as a Choice user or a Nasty Plot attacker? Why would I rather use Aerodactyl as a lead when I can use it as a LO sweeper? Why would I use Lead Dragonite when I could use it as a mixed attacker or a Scarf user or a CB user or a DDer or any number of other things? It's because they work as leads, just like this does. Something's gotta lead on every team, and this can sure as hell do it effectively.

Also, "can't even think about taking special hits" is bullshit. Did you miss the bit in the OP where LOMie Hydro Pump fails to OHKO? How about where Heatran Fire Blast / Earth Power maxes out at 84%. Or Roserade's Leaf Storm? Maybe Gengar's LO Timid Shadow Ball, which does... 58.7% - 69.3%. Hmm. I wouldn't call that "not thinking about taking special hits".

 

[RaikouLover]

It does tons of damage in the lead slot and then threatens stuff later.

The only thing it threatens later is anything weak to Thunderbolt that is slower than your pissy 329 speed. You don't even threaten Starmie anymore.

Why would I rather use Machamp as a lead when I could use it as a sub attacker midgame, or as a Choice Band user, or as a Bulk Up user?

Machamp's Dynamicpunch confuses and awesome super effective type coverage, along with decent base power moves makes him a fucker no matter what position you put him on. That set naturally has midgame significance.

Why would I rather use Azelf as a lead when I can use it as a Choice user or a Nasty Plot attacker?

Azelf is the most used Stealth Rocking lead. You know that. Stealth Rock. Also, Choice Azelf is not uncommon now in the lead position remember?

Why would I rather use Aerodactyl as a lead when I can use it as a LO sweeper?

Stealth Rock. Taunt.

Why would I use Lead Dragonite when I could use it as a mixed attacker or a Scarf user or a CB user or a DDer or any number of other things?

There is no lead Dragonite. Mixnite can lead or not lead because it works at any phase of a match.

Something's gotta lead on every team, and this can sure as hell do it effectively.]

Yeah, the purpose of a lead is to set the pace of the battle by executing your strategy. The only reason really to use an anti-lead is if they commonly destroy your team's strategy. Not to just create a team of 5 pokemon and "insert Pokemon A with Lead set." What kinda crock of shit is this metagame turning into. Its like there is a "lead metagame" and a "rest of the team metagame."

 

[Super Mario Bro]

What RL is trying to express is what utility does this have midgame? Countering Vaporeon "I guess", but a Rash nature really hinders Raikou's revenging potential for Pokemon like Gengar, Infernape, and to an extent Starmie. Since it lacks Leftovers and has a -nature, he's not going to enjoy switching into Vaporeon's Surfs either.

To show how weak Raikou's extremespeed is, it does 22.9% - 27% to Infernape. LOL.

Yeah, the purpose of a lead is to set the pace of the battle by executing your strategy. The only reason really to use an anti-lead is if they commonly destroy your team's strategy. Not to just create a team of 5 pokemon and "insert Pokemon A with Lead set." What kinda crock of shit is this metagame turning into. Its like there is a "lead metagame" and a "rest of the team metagame."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Consider that like Machamp, it is ridiculously hard to OHKO (similar defenses, just that Raikou isn't investing in its HP), it 2HKOs a whole lot of stuff with 361 Special Attack, it outspeeds base 100s, and it's got solid type coverage with Thunderbolt / HP Ice / WHATEVER YOU USE. Extremespeed is fairly decent for picking off low HP Pokemon (you still have 206 Attack and a base 80 power move), especially considering that fourth slot isn't in super high demand unless you're using Calm Mind. Gengar can't break 70% damage on you, and here's a fun one- Raikou can't OHKO Gengar with a neutral SpA nature unless it's running Life Orb.

Anyway, "this set works". I don't care if you personally wouldn't run a lead Raikou. I've used this set, I like it, and would probably use it again given the chance. It has power, bulk, priority, and speed (it's still faster than base 100s, remember that), and while you may not think that it has "midgame relevance", it's still more than capable of sweeping after it does its job in the lead slot.

 

[Curtains]

Not to just create a team of 5 pokemon and "insert Pokemon A with Lead set." What kinda crock of shit is this metagame turning into. Its like there is a "lead metagame" and a "rest of the team metagame."

Thats how i make my teams.The lead metagame is very predictable. What your implying here is that there are many viable choices for something to lead and that one must make a team with a lead as a base/foundation . With machamp leads up, roserade is shit. Infernape leads up, heatran is shit.So saying that adding a random lead is bad is kind of a trap because its impossible to always use machamp just because its standard now. Good creativity works.Bog standards work but there predicable as hell and sometimes things have to change (colbur elf). Any offensive team that wants stealth rocks and easily toss a aero on the team.

 

[Venser]

I'm just curious as to what secondary SR setter-upper you think would work best with this? I'm thinking Gliscor/Skarmory, since both can set up on those Flygons that come in.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Why would anyone use this? This is like one of those sets that *can* work but I wouldn't really bother using Raikou for this role when hes much better at sweeping with Calm Mind, revenge killing with a Choice Item, or being a moderately durable fast special tank. Rather than clinging to "this is outclassed by Pokemon X" its more like why would I choose Raikou for this role, or better yet if I'm choosing Raikou as a pokemon why do I want to do this with it?

In regards to midgame significance, this is hardly good midgame. You can't boost anything. Your extremespeed is piss weak. You are now slower than two pokemon you commonly can revenge kill with great efficiency (Infernape, Gengar, and you aren't even speed tying Starmie who you OHKO), and you can't even think about taking special hits with your Rash nature... Just why?

Who cares what other things a pokemon can do? I'm not using Raikou because I want to optimize Raikou's use-- I'm looking for pokemon x to fit role y.

If Raikou fits role y, why not use it that way? Hate to break it RL, but Raikou's not one of those pokemon that I'm just dying to use elsewhere in my team (ie., it's not Garchomp, or not even Machamp where adding your lead Hariyama gives the chance to use both).