Lower Tiers RBY NU Viability Rankings (Pre-Alph)

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Sevi 7

Sevi 7

Semi-retired
RBY NU
:Venusaur: :Charizard: :Blastoise:

This page is being left for historic purposes. This was considered a really well balanced and fun meta, and it may be something you would want to play among friends. This is no longer an up to date VR.​

If you're unfamiliar with RBY NU, this is a project that will be started after RBY UU has settled (which is why this tier is in pre-alph) hopefully this year or early next year. There's a small but growing playerbase that is continuously exploring and testing. If you're interested in the tier, you can also discuss it in the discord, here. Also note that this tier is completely different than PokemonPerfect's tiers.

Ubers:
:Mew: Mew
:Mewtwo: Mewtwo

OU:
:Alakazam: Alakazam
:Chansey: Chansey
:Cloyster: Cloyster
:Exeggutor: Exeggutor
:Gengar: Gengar
:Jolteon: Jolteon
:jynx: Jynx
:Lapras: Lapras
:Rhydon: Rhydon
:Slowbro: Slowbro
:Snorlax: Snorlax
:Starmie: Starmie
:Tauros: Tauros
:Victreebel: Victreebel
:Zapdos: Zapdos

UU:
:Articuno: Articuno
:Dodrio: Dodrio
:Dragonite: Dragonite
:Dugtrio: Dugtrio
:Electabuzz: Electabuzz
:Golem: Golem
:Gyarados: Gyarados
:Haunter: Haunter
:Hypno: Hypno
:Kadabra: Kadabra
:Kangaskhan: Kangaskhan
:Omastar: Omastar
:Persian: Persian
:Poliwrath: Poliwrath
:Raichu: Raichu
:Tangela: Tangela
:Tentacruel: Tentacruel
:Vaporeon: Vaporeon

NUBL:
:Golduck: Golduck
Golduck was quickbanned after it was found to absolutely dominate every single game. Every game became about beating your opponent's Golduck so that you could sweep with your own. It's honestly more important to a team/game than Mewtwo in Ubers. One day we will have to give it an actual suspect, but unless there are some serious changes to the tier, then there is little doubt it will be banned again

Until the meta develops more, subranks have been removed and everything is put into alphabetical order.

S Ranks:
N/A


A Ranks:
:Arcanine: Arcanine
:Blastoise: Blastoise
:Charizard: Charizard
:Clefable: Clefable
:Dewgong: Dewgong
:Kabutops: Kabutops
:Moltres: Moltres (Tentative)
:Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime
:Nidoking: Nidoking
:Porygon: Porygon
:Venusaur: Venusaur


B Ranks:
:Drowzee: Drowzee
:Exeggcute: Exeggcute
:Fearow: Fearow
:Gastly: Gastly (Tentative)
:Pinsir: Pinsir (Tentative)
:Poliwhirl: Poliwhirl (Tenative)
:Raticate: Raticate (Tentative)
:Seadra: Seadra (Tentative)
:Venomoth: Venomoth


C Ranks:
:Arbok: Arbok (Tenative)
:Dragonair: Dragonair
:Electrode: Electrode
:Graveler: Graveler (Tenative)
:Kingler: Kingler (Tentative)
:Nidoqueen: Nidoqueen (Tenative)
:Rapidash: Rapidash (Tenative)
:Weezing: Weezing


D Ranks:
:Aerodactyl: Aerodactyl (Tenative)
:Machamp: Machamp (Tentative)
:Magneton: Magneton (Tenative)
:Muk: Muk (Tenative)
:Ninetales: Ninetales (Tentative)
:Primeape: Primeape (Tentative)
:Wigglytuff: Wigglytuff (Tenative)

(Sample Teams and some explanations about cores can be found in my post here.)
(A quick run down of the lead metagame can be found in my post here.)
(Speed Tiers with some context around the tiers can be found in my post here.)
 
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I'm really excited for this project as it feels like a good place for me to finally jump into an RBY meta. I don't know if a golduck suspect test would really be necessary, as it's good stats for the tier and access to amnesia makes its brokenness pretty obvious to even a noob like me, but like you said that's more for the far future and for now I'm interested in seeing how this tier develops.
 
Not the most expert in the field, but from the games I played they are all good leads, forcing a rock/paper/scissors in lead matchup
Venu spreads sleep and resists electric (not many top tier mons can say the same)
Blastoise is a bulky water with good stats all around
Zard imo is the weaker of the three (as shown in the VR), even tho Slash + Fire Blast hits pretty decently, just pray the opponent doesn’t have Kabutops to shut it down completely (Edit: nvm it learns earthquake, thanks hipmonlee for pointing it out)
If you meant important roles in general and not just the starters, I’m definitely not expert enough for that, but hey, it ain’t much but it’s honest work
 
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Charizard can Earthquake. Kabutops cant really switch into it at all.

My thoughts on the VRs:
- Dewgong is great, it's blizzard is gonna hit like a truck.
- Basically all of the fire types are good, but special mention to Rapidash who is naturally the fastest pokemon in the tier and can fire-spin.
- There is a dearth of paralysis and Vileplume can Stun Spore. It probably deserves a ranking. Although probably not a high one.
- For similar reasons Wigglytuff can easily fit onto a team alongside Clefable
- Dont underestimate Pidgeot. It's bulk advantage over Fearow is significant. Mirror Move seems to be legal in the teambuilder, and its a surprisingly versatile move.
- I am really sceptical of Seadra deserving that ranking ahead of basically any other water, Poliwhirl included..
 
Plague von Karma said:
Try this one. It's a permalink.
Click to expand...
Made this one the one in the OP. Thanks!

Questions Frog said:
I just want to say how I really like that all three starters are not only viable, but top-tier on the viability ranking list. What are the important roles here, can anyone give me a quick rundown?
Click to expand...
I'll work on this later.

Also, I'm working on Samples right now. As soon as they're done, RoA sample teams will be updated.


Hipmonlee said:
Charizard can Earthquake. Kabutops cant really switch into it at all.

My thoughts on the VRs:
- Dewgong is great, it's blizzard is gonna hit like a truck.
- Basically all of the fire types are good, but special mention to Rapidash who is naturally the fastest pokemon in the tier and can fire-spin.
- There is a dearth of paralysis and Vileplume can Stun Spore. It probably deserves a ranking. Although probably not a high one.
- For similar reasons Wigglytuff can easily fit onto a team alongside Clefable
- Dont underestimate Pidgeot. It's bulk advantage over Fearow is significant. Mirror Move seems to be legal in the teambuilder, and its a surprisingly versatile move.
- I am really sceptical of Seadra deserving that ranking ahead of basically any other water, Poliwhirl included..
Click to expand...
Not everything is ranked now and things will get added as they need to. I need more than theorymon to put something on the list or change ranks though. There is a lot of things that can work and I suspect about a dozen more mons will be added, but for now this is what has been proven to work. Please feel free to provide replays and whatnot though.
 
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So a few clarifications, because I'm seeing these same ideas with a lot of people coming into the tier right now.

First of all, electric-types are not really part of the meta and countering them is not really important because they are not that good to begin with. Magneton is a coin flip that may not do anything at all in certain matchups and Electrode is only a fairly good mon that needs luck to really do harm. Half of the common pokemon naturally check electrics and so electric-types haven't been proven to be top tier material at all. There's a lot of people looking to use Magneton and Electrode, but really there's no reason to run either of them, unless you want to build the team around them specifically.

Clefable can run rest, but it's more of an other option. Clef is generally running something like: Thunder Wave, B Slam/DE, Hyper Beam/Blizzard/Sing, Thunderbolt. Clef isn't walling anything and is slow, even when unpara'd, so nursing it back to health is not its best strategy for most teams.


Khaetis said:
I suggest Graveler to D. I think T-Wave immunity is important, + Electrical control. It can come on Para Clefable which presses the rest is 3HKO with earthquake.
A well used explosion can also be a good trade.
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So with those thing said, I think you can see why this is a bad argument for Graveler. That being said, I do think that Graveler can be put into D Rank for now, as it does wall non-Blizz Clef, can be used to take the occasional H Beam or Explosion and can hit some specific threats like really hard with STAB Rock Slide and Earthquake. And, as you said, it can be used for trading with explosion.

Khaetis said:
Surprised that you did not classify Nidoqueen.
Click to expand...
It's directly outclassed by Nidoking, so unless a double Nido core works, it'll remain UR.

I'm really glad to see so many people get excited for this tier though. Please keep up the passion and let me know if you have any questions. And again, the discord is a good place to get more discussion.
 
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To elaborate on the Nido thing, cause it's kinda fun.

In most RBY metas, the difference in speed between the two is completely useless, so Nidoking basically has a bunch of wasted stat points, whereas Nidoqueen has more HP, the best stat. So usually, Nidoqueen is better.

However, in NU 3 of the top 5 pokemon are faster than Nidoqueen but slower than Nidoking...
 
just to clarify, when I say that immunity has t-wave -electric controls - access to explosion - hits decent. is "important" I mean is "important" to justify that Graveler is placed a D. we are talking about the D-Rank, it is far from the dominant forces of the level, but it deserves this place. I say this to avoid confusion. I agree with you on electric pokemon, they are hardly viable for obvious reasons..
 
[Posted on behalf of Volk, with my thoughts in bold]
well, if the Smogon post is official and I don't have a Smogon account, this where I'm going to put proposals for it.

Charizard -> A, this doesn't need justification, Zard is extremely strong, extremely fast, surprisingly diverse, and nearly uncounterable & Fire Spin lol. Probably top 3/top 5 in the tier
I don't know if it's top 3/5, but I'm definitely going to have to try justify keeping it in A- rather than A.

Raticate -> B, just kind of underwhelming, doesn't have high enough stats for the meta ultimately, relies heavily on predictions and fails fairly often (misses)
Rat I'm not sure, It's not top of B+ for sure, but I don't know if it's B. It has problems with accuracy but it can wallbreak and sweep in the late game, giving it more options than something like Seadra.

Porygon -> B+, extremely easy to fit on teams, fits on a lot of archetypes from hard stall, balance, and of course Nido Offense
Porygon is great against some common mons like Blastoise, but it also wants to stay completely away from anything else. It's pretty passive and causes you to lose momentum just as fast you get it. It's definitely the best of defensive walls, but I don't know if I can justify it being that much better. The B rank definitely needs tweaks and maybe with those adjustments B+ would be great for Pory

Nidoking -> B, the rest of B- is passive mons that exist to check like one or two specific mons in the tier while King is much more splashable, effective, and less matchup-dependent
It's getting hard for me to justify Nido in B-, especially because Veno is there too now. Again, B needs some tweaks.

Dewgong UR -> C, not terrible, can engage in freeze wars and Blizzard is actually nasty with how strong it is
Yeah it's rankable, but I don't know where. C for now I guess.

Electrode -> C+/B-, I don't know if this is quite ready to be B- but it definitely stands out amongst the rest of C
I think Electrode's placement is really meta reliant, and we don't know where the meta will exactly go. If water spam starts to becomes a legitimate archetype, then I can see C+, but for now I'll leave it at C.

Poliwhirl UR -> C or D, should at least be ranked, though it still kind of sucks because it can't set up on much with how weak it is
I played a game and Poli actually did something. It's really MU dependent, but I guess it can do something afterall. I'll put it for D for now. Maybe the meta will become more favorable for it.

Khaetis said:
just to clarify, when I say that immunity has t-wave -electric controls - access to explosion - hits decent. is "important" I mean is "important" to justify that Graveler is placed a D. we are talking about the D-Rank, it is far from the dominant forces of the level, but it deserves this place. I say this to avoid confusion. I agree with you on electric pokemon, they are hardly viable for obvious reasons..
Click to expand...
Sorry, I wasn't trying to saying about you specifically, and I'm sorry I came off as so dismissive. I just meant that in general I see people talking about electric-types and using/planning electric-types like they're on every team or something. I've actually heard good things about you and I hope to see you in the discord.
 
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I've got three sample teams ready, I want to have at least two more by the end of the month, and to show off some different mons. I'll be submitting these to RoA soon, but I'll let you guys try them out now.
Zard + PoryNido
Venu + BlastArc + Tops
Starters + Tops

I also want to talk a little bit about the cores on these teams.

Clef + Mime
As you can see, this core is on every single one of these teams. You can run Mime without Clef and Clef without Mime, but they do so well together that it's easy to just put them together. Clef has T Wave and physical attacks to help get past Mime and a few other mons that give mime trouble, mean while Mime helps with Venu, Zard the occasional Champ, and some thing that give Clef trouble. They also have some redundant coverage in t bolt, meaning that your opponent will have a hard time getting Blastoise and Kabutops to rest. Overall they're just a good combination both defensively and offensively.
Now, Mime can also work with something like Drowzee or Exeggecute to help cover opposing Mimes. This isn't as good overally, but both of those mons can do things that Clef cannot, so there are times to want to use them over Clef. Clef can also work without Mime and just be a solid mixed attacker or dual status. They don't have to be ran together, but it's hard to pass it up lots of the time.
Also note that in none of the teams have rest on Clef or Mime. There are times to run them with Rest, but your team has to want them for defensive purposes for some reason, and you have to not want to use a more solid defensive mon instead.

Pory + Nido
Pory, a passive defensive mon, and Nido, a nearly wallbreaking offensive mon, may not seem like a good combo at first. However, they cover themselves very well. NIdoking doesn't take hits very well, so getting it in is usually on a double switch or through pivoting through a wrapper/fire spinner. Things don't take Nido's attack well, but something like Blastoise from full, can be enough to scare out Nido, which is where the water wall Porygon comes in. Barring bad luck, a healthy Pory can completely wall water mons (although an unparalyzed Dewgong has a chance at beating Porygon if Pory switches into an attack), and Pory can paralyze faster mons like Mr Mime after the water mons have been taken care of. Nido can be a beast but it needs support, and Pory is great at supporting Nido.

Blast + Arc
This a solid defensive core that helps protect against fire and water spam offensive teams. In the right matchups, these two can tank entire teams. Offensively they're pretty good for each other too. Arc helps with Pory, Clef and Venu; meanwhile, Blast helps with Tops, Zard and Dragonair. Throw on some backup support with things like Pory or Tops and you have a solid core going on.

Starters
This probably shouldn't be classified as a core since they don't have the same synergy as the other ones on here, but I know this is a really cool concept and I don't want to deprive anyone of it. The concept is pretty straightforward. Blast tanks hits, Zard deals damage and Venu supports. I've talked enough about Blast in the last core. Zard can either run a Fire Spin wrap/pivoting/anti-lead set or an SD set. Venu helps take out waters that both Venu and Zard don't want to deal with and can provide sleep powder support to help out SD zard. This core has problems with Mime, so Clef is usually a good mon to go with this as well.

Electric + Flying
This is a core I work on from time to time. Electrics aren't all that great to begin with, so it's hard to justify using them over something more proven, but this isn't a bad way to use them. Putting Magneton or Electrode with Fearow, Moltres or Charizard helps wallbreak each other weaknesses. Magneton can just delete some waters and flying by clicking Thunder and Electrode can provide good support in being able to 2HKO and outspeed those mons. Meanwhile, Flyings help deal with Venu and sweep when the waters are gone.
I will share a team with the core it down here as a bonus for reading everything. It's not something I plan to add as a sample, because it's not that good and I'm not done polishing it, but if you want to use an electric, here's your chance. Mag + Fearow

There are other cores in the meta and to be discovered later on; however this gives you a good glimpse into the cores on these particular teams.
 
To elaborate on why Golduck is banned, at the dawn of NU when the first games were being played, it was considered top tier but not the best in the tier, that title initially fell to Moltres since, back then, people didn't run that many Pokemon which were faster than Moltres and since we didn't know that much about the tier back then, our play was very messy with people letting Mr Mime trade paralysis as a lead and games frequently had Moltres Fire Spin wars, but then Arcanine was discovered to completely dumpster Moltres if it ran Rest.

However, the effects of Arcanine's discovery on the tier would be much greater than dealing with Moltres, since running Rest enabled it to dance around its counters—namely Blastoise and Kabutops since stuff like Porygon weren't used yet—and chip away at them unless they would run Rest themselves, what this led to was multiple Pokemon on each team running Rest, giving Golduck plenty of opportunities to come in and start boosting which is where the problems with Golduck really began.

The first problem was with the tiers themselves being developed without BL, due to the need for faster Pokemon than Tentacruel in UU, former Golduck answers like Electabuzz and Vaporeon weren't around to deal with it, leaving answers to it (outside of playing the mirror match) scarce. The next major issue with Golduck was it's speed stat, why you may ask? Since its speed stat leaves it slightly above Venusaur, the only viable Pokemon at the time (barring Golduck) which could possibly scare out Golduck, but since it's not only faster than Venusaur but it also can live a Razor Leaf and could either Boost as Venusaur comes in on it and win the 1v1 with Blizzard or Ice Beam 2hko'ing at +2, or after being forced to Rest (which took long enough that Golduck would get to +6 usually) it could live a Razor Leaf as it woke up and then OHKO Venusaur the next turn, and since it was running Rest (more on that in a second) it could heal up without many difficulties since so many Pokemon which Golduck forced out could be forced to Rest, giving it opportunities to heal up. But not only was Golduck the best punish in the tier against basically everything using Rest, it also could use Rest itself and became basically irremovable outside of either playing the ditto and praying for freeze, or using terrible moves like Toxic after it woke up as a way of forcing a predictable Rest to then punish with Venusaur coming in the turn it would heal, but this is an unreliable punish since it relies on a 50/50 and if you guess wrong then Venusaur dies from a +6 Ice Beam and Golduck usually can heal up again.

But this unreliable punish method of bringing something in on a Rest and risking an OHKO on a wrong guess is the only punish that could be realistically done since literally nothing can kill the thing fast enough to not die if they come in on the first turn of Sleep, barring using Explosions which is an incredibly risky play and won't even kill it while it can usually weasel its way in to burn enough turns of Rest to wake up and heal again, but this can be entirely invalidated by the opposing Golduck clicking Rest at an unexpected time, leaving the only method of dealing with an Golduck being to play the ditto and pray for a freeze before they freeze, and whoever wins that 1v1—which is entirely decided by RNG and is the only reliable means of dealing with Golduck—likely wins that game 90% of the time.

In summary, Golduck was incredibly unhealthy for the tier, it made matches take ages to complete, mostly invalidated battling skill, and was an over-restrictive presence in the teambuilder, and its ban was well deserved.
 
the theory on Golduck was explained very well here, having said that I really would have liked to see the games of people who know the levels with Golduck, I personally started the levels by winning a NU + Golduck ROA tour so I could not play than 2-3 games with Golduck,

here is the final just to get an idea of Golduck in practice

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-1170362511-5oq4t1nnyj75pzyu6v0au0ts8h0lrkepw

PS: Sevi7 doesn't kill me, it's just to show how strong golduck can be but I think you can post more interesting games which are a resource for me and people about golduck :).
 
Khaetis said:
the theory on Golduck was explained very well here, having said that I really would have liked to see the games of people who know the levels with Golduck, I personally started the levels by winning a NU + Golduck ROA tour so I could not play than 2-3 games with Golduck,

here is the final just to get an idea of Golduck in practice

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1uu-1170362511-5oq4t1nnyj75pzyu6v0au0ts8h0lrkepw

PS: Sevi7 doesn't kill me, it's just to show how strong golduck can be but I think you can post more interesting games which are a resource for me and people about golduck :).
Click to expand...
I mean your replay kinda shows it all with a +4 Golduck that sweeps entire teams better than Mewtwo in Ubers. There's some replays from months back with Golduck, if you really want to see some. I think @enimagmi said that they have some teams from that meta, and they might be able to show them. However, I got so sick of Golduck that I quit RBY NU until we quickbanned it, so I don't have anything from that time now.
The only thing about the replay is that neither team seems well equipped to take out an opposing golduck, which definitely became the name of the game, because like I said, nothing stops Golduck at +4, except other Golduck or through a serious of setting up through sacrificial plays.

Again, sorry for coming off so harsh the first time you posted.
 
Unfortunately I lost my Golduck teams when I updated them post-ban.
I think this was one of them though:

https://pokepast.es/cf9fb2484f9af713

FWGx2 was and is a standard archetype I use for NU.

2 Fires: Arcanine, Charizard, Moltres
2 Waters: Mandatory Golduck (before the ban), Blastoise, Seadra, Kabutops
2 Grasses: Venusaur, Exeggcute

Nidoking is kind of a problem due to Ground+Ice+Electric weakness, but burns/Water STAB (particularly Seadra)/powders can keep Nidoking somewhat in check, and Nidoking has a hard time in a Golduck meta with only speed-tieing Golduck, being weak to its STAB and not being immediately threatening to it.
 
Lead metagame

The lead metagame consists of 8 mons (Venusaur, Venomoth, Clefable, Mr Mime, Blastoise, Arcanine, Charizard and Moltres), whose jobs are to status, anti-lead or pivot

Status leads consist of: Venusaur, Venomoth, Clefable and Mr. Mime, who will Sleep and/or Paralyze.
:Venusaur: Venusaur is mainly used because it outspeeds Bastoise and can hit it super effectively with Razor Lead. Venusaur also works outside the lead as an anti-water mon.
:Venomoth: Venomoth gets dual powder and a fairly good speed tier. However, it doesn't do much outside of the lead spot, so Venomoth is a dedicated lead.
:Clefable: Clefable gets both Thunder Wave and Sing, but it can get away with just Thunder Wave. It's got a good amount of power and can work later in the game. However, it's the slowest lead and hates going up against any sleep lead. Furthermore, Clefable is usually a team's Mime check, which it gets a lot worse at doing when it's used in the lead spot. Personally, this is my least favorite lead.
:Mr. Mime: Mr. Mime is at a fairly good speed tier and has STAB Psychic and Thunderbolt. However, it only gets Thunder Wave and it hates getting statused itself. Venusaur and Venomoth may also stay in and try to get off a Sleep Powder, just because getting mime slept can be that big. This is probably my second least favorite lead, but if I really want a para on a pivoting mon, I'll consider it.

Dedicated anti-leads consist of: Blastoise and Arcanine and are both used to check pivot leads and make sure that they don't gain momentum
:Blastoise: Blastoise is there to scare out opposing fire leads. This is the best answer to Charizard and is why it's seen a lot. It's of course scared out by Venusaur, and thus creates a little rock, paper scissors metagame, but other leads, like Mr. Mime and Venomoth scare it as well.
:Arcanine: Arcanine checks other fire leads, while also scaring out Venusaur and Venomoth. The reason it's not more popular than Blastoise is because Arcanine doesn't do as well vs Charizard (who can 3HKO with EQ) and it's harder to fit an Arcanine on a team. I think new players should definitely be interested in exploring this lead though.

The pivot leads are: Charizard and Moltres. Pivoting in RBY is using a wrapping move (in there cases, Fire Spin) to trap the opponent and get a free switch, similarly to U-turn in later gens, or to trap the mon and chip away at them until they die.
:Charizard: Charizard is fastest lead, gets Fire Spin, STAB Fire Blast, EQ and Slash. All of which gives it a chance to take out opposing lead without taking a scratch itself. Of course pivoting is also a very strong option and may be better most of the time. Charizard absolutely hates bad luck though, as getting para'd makes Charizard dead weight. So sometimes simple hard switching out instead of pivoting is better for Charizard, because 30% of the time, you will miss that inital fire spin. Even with that said, Charizard is the still the best lead imo.
If you're familiar with RBY UU, Charizard is similar to lead Tentacruel in a lot ways.
:Moltres: Moltres used to be the go-to lead in the early days of NU. However, now it is mostly in Charizard's shadow, both in the lead spot and outside of it. However, Moltres gets Agility/Rest, which means it's easier for it to recover from some bad luck and it has the highest Special Stat in the meta, making it easier to chip with Fire Spin and do a lot of damage with Fire Blast. However, Moltres is a bit inferior to Charizard due to a lower speed stat, and relying on just Fire Spin and Fire Blast as its main attacking moves.

:Electrode:
Personally, I only like Electrode against Wrap leads, because it forces them out instead of letting them pivot out. However, even then Electrode is not that good, because at best you're just paralyzing whatever is fine with taking the para anyways.
Going against Blastoise or Mr. Mime leads also can be considered good matchups, but it's the same result as the Wrap ones, and there's other, better mons, that can do the same thing as Electrode.
On the other hand, Venusaur, Venomoth, and Clefable are bad matchups. Getting the para off on these mons isn't worth the price, because Electrode doesn't want to take the status itself.
Lastly, Arcanine is a neutral matchup with luck deciding who the winner is.
One other problem with Electrode is that your team has to actually want Electrode. It's not a bad mon, but it's not able to pull its weight as a dedicated lead. Therefore, you have to justify using Electrode as a lead and as a member of your 6.

Also note that there are more lead possibilities out there. This is what has been explored and proven so far, but this is definitely not set in stone.
 
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