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OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

Toxic is kinda Potential Move in RBY, like there are so many situations where it looks like it should be crazy good, and in theory you can build a team around it, but more often than not using it ends up benefiting the opponent because as bdt said paralysis is such an important status. Against a standard team like ZamEggMie, this kind of Toxic semi-stall structure would struggle to make enough progress before Snorlax or Tauros tore it in two, not to mention BoltBeam Chansey who'd gladly take an early poison into this.

If you're interested in running Toxic, some interesting avenues are using it in combination with Wrap, using it on Zapdos to "flip" the Rhydon matchup around (or at least punish the rhydon), and using it on a single last pokemon like Alakazam or Chansey with the intention of toxicing the last Pokémon on your opponent's team. These have been explored before, and I'm sure they've been brought to tournaments even though I can't think of a match off the top of my head, but they might have some untapped potential. Personally, I think the Zapdos idea is the only truly concrete advantageous Toxic use, but people have gotten away with worse strats than Toxic + Wrap (they've used Wrap straight up.......)
Thanks for the input :3 So, I use toxic in a kinda weird way I guess <: You're tottttally right about snorlax and tauros. That combo is problem number 1. Once one of them goes down it makes it easier to play against the remaining one and that is where toxic comes in for me. It ensures that once we are both forced to play more defensively, I have more of an advantage. At least that's how it has been playing out for me! :D
I'm definitely alwaaaaaays changing Starmie's slot. Still experimenting and stuff. Recently I tried replacing starmie with golem with the idea of taking something out easier with explosion and that's been interesing:) But yeah, it's been really fun doing my own thing and weirdly enough I'm somehow doing better than I was with the standard teams : ' )
 
Something esoteric I've been thinking about: as much as we've seen rises in Chanseyless and Laxless, it feels very hard to abuse these trends in some ways because even the most cracked builders will still have these pokemon at roughly 60%. Historically I've tried to pull cringemons like cuno and lap to try and capitalize on these scouts, but when I think about my actual odds, I'm more often than not still running into their bad matchups. Obviously they can sometimes sweep, but even then they're inherently inconsistent for other reasons (mostly god mie tbh).

I think many of these pokemon are sadly bad because they match up so poorly into common staple spammable pokemon that really should never be below (imo) 70% or so. You're at best getting your ideal matchup about 40% of the time, which just seems worse than loading teams that greed zap or don (which are rarely above 30%). Perhaps I'm getting a bit too empirical with that and failing to account for the reward the other mons bring, but I also feel it's very rare for these fringe mons to deliver as much as I'd like in a way that's difficult for me to parse at this time.

I think the most promising development I've seen is blizzbolt mie, because very (very!) low reflect lax is a real trend among some players; but even then it feels like quite a marginal development. Stab mie still gets the job done in these matchups well enough to where blizzbolt feels more like a bell and whistle than a devastating, game changing angle of attack.

Maybe the solution is just to trust that the normals are good and that those that drop them do so at their own peril. And maybe this is why zap and gar tend to be gatekeepers of the shitmons; if their usage was any higher, there would be no reason to ever bring a vic or persian at all, the risk would simply be too great (as if it isn't already!). Anything that loses to the normals or mie is ultimately unviable for that exact reason.

Anyway, this has made me want to analyze my scouts with a greater level of empiricism (what does "low" don or "low" chansey actually mean?). Is abusing 30% jynx at all comparable to abusing 30% zapdos? Because the "reward" for these punishes gets slippery and subjective, and it's made me critical of how so much of the data I analyze in a scout is entangled with subjective readings of this metagame. A lot of it is purely based on what is unusual to what I'm used to and not necessarily on the state of the metagame as it exists. I'm hoping I can try and parse scouts more by what is strong into them and rather what is "unusual about them," and to take the elements of the metagame on their own merits rather than how they fit into a preconceived status quo.
 
Is abusing 30% jynx at all comparable to abusing 30% zapdos? Because the "reward" for these punishes gets slippery and subjective, and it's made me critical of how so much of the data I analyze in a scout is entangled with subjective readings of this metagame. A lot of it is purely based on what is unusual to what I'm used to and not necessarily on the state of the metagame as it exists. I'm hoping I can try and parse scouts more by what is strong into them and rather what is "unusual about them," and to take the elements of the metagame on their own merits rather than how they fit into a preconceived status quo.

this is a good observation and i will immediately compound on it by telling you that i think 30% jynx is not really punishable at all and in fact quite standard while 30% zapdos is on the higher end and you should definitely be zapdos proofing your stuff (generally)

i think the best way to look at it is to look at the individual pokemon and at the whole list of enemy teams and asking yourself: how often is this one good, and how often is it bad? you only have a dozen pokemon to consider, maybe in the 15-20 range if you're open to more exotic angles (which i think is the cherry on top but not necessary), so you can really go down the list and say "tauros? good, no real angle for rest or tbolt or lead, just run the normal one. snorlax? good, better with icebeam than with selfdestruct broadly. chansey? good, need boltbeam. starmie? good, surf likely better than psychic" and so on and so forth. this gives you a list of Broadly Good options

the last step, and this one is a pain in the ass to account for but imo necessary at the top top level, is to stop looking at just the %s and looking at the actual team comps in more detail. how often are the rhydons with cloyster laxless, and how often with lax? do they greed the full "int against zapdos" angles (mie cloy egg and the likes, no zam no ice chans no boomlax nothing to make the zap mu marginally better at all), or do they always take care to balance it one way or the other? with all that data you can take your individual Broadly Good options and assemble comprehensive counterteams for the whole scout. eg. "this guy's rhydon teams mono lose to md egg. i can bring md egg + the rest of my mons covering the other match ups and can afford to be rhydon weak". so you can freely slot in gengar, no ice chans, mono normal lax, maybe even electrics, depending on specifics


of course the Ultimate Truth is that you're doing a ton of work to just have a slightly better die to roll in the randomness-fest of team selection, if and only if your opponent is especially exploitable. if you just bring good balanced teams with "correct" frequencies nobody will ever have an advantage over you. and if you just practice a specific structure until you're absolutely fucking flawless at it you can just learn the bad match ups and outplay them. prep is but a tiny element of the broader equation of Winning At RBY. i think it's hugely important because 90%+ of people are unbalanced and exploitable in very practical ways, but at the same time i think a lot of people could benefit from worrying less about prep and worrying more about approaching troller tier neck breaking clicking ability
 
Something esoteric I've been thinking about: as much as we've seen rises in Chanseyless and Laxless, it feels very hard to abuse these trends in some ways because even the most cracked builders will still have these pokemon at roughly 60%. Historically I've tried to pull cringemons like cuno and lap to try and capitalize on these scouts, but when I think about my actual odds, I'm more often than not still running into their bad matchups. Obviously they can sometimes sweep, but even then they're inherently inconsistent for other reasons (mostly god mie tbh).

I think many of these pokemon are sadly bad because they match up so poorly into common staple spammable pokemon that really should never be below (imo) 70% or so. You're at best getting your ideal matchup about 40% of the time, which just seems worse than loading teams that greed zap or don (which are rarely above 30%). Perhaps I'm getting a bit too empirical with that and failing to account for the reward the other mons bring, but I also feel it's very rare for these fringe mons to deliver as much as I'd like in a way that's difficult for me to parse at this time.

I think the most promising development I've seen is blizzbolt mie, because very (very!) low reflect lax is a real trend among some players; but even then it feels like quite a marginal development. Stab mie still gets the job done in these matchups well enough to where blizzbolt feels more like a bell and whistle than a devastating, game changing angle of attack.

Maybe the solution is just to trust that the normals are good and that those that drop them do so at their own peril. And maybe this is why zap and gar tend to be gatekeepers of the shitmons; if their usage was any higher, there would be no reason to ever bring a vic or persian at all, the risk would simply be too great (as if it isn't already!). Anything that loses to the normals or mie is ultimately unviable for that exact reason.

Anyway, this has made me want to analyze my scouts with a greater level of empiricism (what does "low" don or "low" chansey actually mean?). Is abusing 30% jynx at all comparable to abusing 30% zapdos? Because the "reward" for these punishes gets slippery and subjective, and it's made me critical of how so much of the data I analyze in a scout is entangled with subjective readings of this metagame. A lot of it is purely based on what is unusual to what I'm used to and not necessarily on the state of the metagame as it exists. I'm hoping I can try and parse scouts more by what is strong into them and rather what is "unusual about them," and to take the elements of the metagame on their own merits rather than how they fit into a preconceived status quo.
If I may poke beyond the question and into your understanding of game theory and mixed strategies. Are you assuming that 60% chansey/lax is exploitable?


This is a longshot but I believe you have a theoretical misunderstanding that you believe usingn 60% chansey is exploitable because chansey is very good (it has a high payoff), therefore you believe the optimal frequency should be 100%.

But the opposite is true on nash equilibrium, precisely because chansey is so good, having only 60% can have a tremendous unexploitable effect on team comp (turn 0 of the game).

This can have profound effect on your gameplay, for example, you have a blizzard Starmie vs a rhydon, with your erroneous belief you would probably overweigh Blizzard to close to 100% frequency, maybe 90%? 80%? When in most situations the opposite is true, precisely because blizzard is so powerful, you only need to click it like 20% of the time baseline, and the rest of the frequency you can devote to covering various switches.
 
For maybe 1 or 2 people who care about this P: I have realized toxic on Zam is highly situational. His most common toxic victims are Chansey and Egg. Hitting non-resting egg with toxic is amazing. Rest mitigates its effectiveness though :/ But most people don't use rest on Egg :D Toxic hitting chansey is good if it is seismic toss chansey, but ice beam chansey can abuse the toxic status to spam ice beam without much counter play. For that reason, Thunderwave is better on Zam than toxic. I rarely use toxic on Egg anymore as well, but it is much better on him, because he can choose his targets a bit better. So yeah:) this is what I have learned for those interested after using them a lot.
 
This is a longshot but I believe you have a theoretical misunderstanding that you believe usingn 60% chansey is exploitable because chansey is very good (it has a high payoff), therefore you believe the optimal frequency should be 100%.

But the opposite is true on nash equilibrium, precisely because chansey is so good, having only 60% can have a tremendous unexploitable effect on team comp (turn 0 of the game).
How do you exploit low chansey? Say I was playing someone who agreed not to use it.

I could bring:
- Back mie (preferably blizz)
- Lapras
- Probably articuno
- Probably zap because fitting good electric checks without chansey is difficult, and they often rely on mie to wall things over chansey, which makes them very exploitable to zap entering on recover
- Probably some 2018 era ref chansey team that just spam twave t1 with no fear of sing chansey.

And I'm sure better players than me have more ideas than that.

Now how do I exploit 100% chansey usage? Not a specific set, but the pokemon intrinsically. Let's assume all the sets are in their ideal proportion of usage.

Uhhhhhh...

And that's the thing. You can't really, which is why it historically had 100% usage. Dropping incredibly unexploitable pokemon doesn't make your scout less exploitable, it makes it moreso. If I replaced my Chansey 20% of the time with Pinsir, would that make me less exploitable? Obviously not.

To take this example:
This can have profound effect on your gameplay, for example, you have a blizzard Starmie vs a rhydon, with your erroneous belief you would probably overweigh Blizzard to close to 100% frequency, maybe 90%? 80%? When in most situations the opposite is true, precisely because blizzard is so powerful, you only need to click it like 20% of the time baseline, and the rest of the frequency you can devote to covering various switches.
This I think kind of demonstrates the problem. It's not just about how strong the move is, but how punishable it is. If they can't respond in any active way if I click blizz, whereas other moves let rhydon chunk me, than I should click blizz 100% of the time (unless I'm severely behind and need to claw my way back with lots of risky plays like this).
 
For maybe 1 or 2 people who care about this P: I have realized toxic on Zam is highly situational. His most common toxic victims are Chansey and Egg. Hitting non-resting egg with toxic is amazing. Rest mitigates its effectiveness though :/ But most people don't use rest on Egg :D Toxic hitting chansey is good if it is seismic toss chansey, but ice beam chansey can abuse the toxic status to spam ice beam without much counter play. For that reason, Thunderwave is better on Zam than toxic. I rarely use toxic on Egg anymore as well, but it is much better on him, because he can choose his targets a bit better. So yeah:) this is what I have learned for those interested after using them a lot.
Toxic on egg is indeed nice to put it on a timer, but I think wave is still better against it just because of how much it helps lax. It can also cheese you out of getting boomed if they fp too, which is nice. I know players like Amaranth have explored laxless toxic teams, and there are others who have tried out amnesia bolt lax stuff with toxic. I think in those cases the reward for toxic on egg is a little more skewed because lax is absent or able to tank egg's boom/psychics, and the chip is helpful when you lack lax's slam to make progress.
 
How do you exploit low chansey? Say I was playing someone who agreed not to use it.

I could bring:
- Back mie (preferably blizz)
- Lapras
- Probably articuno
- Probably zap because fitting good electric checks without chansey is difficult, and they often rely on mie to wall things over chansey, which makes them very exploitable to zap entering on recover
- Probably some 2018 era ref chansey team that just spam twave t1 with no fear of sing chansey.

And I'm sure better players than me have more ideas than that.

Now how do I exploit 100% chansey usage? Not a specific set, but the pokemon intrinsically. Lets assume all the sets are in their ideal proportion of usage.

Uhhhhhh...

And that's the thing. You can't really, which is why it historically had 100% usage. Dropping incredibly unexploitable pokemon doesn't make your scout less exploitable, it makes it moreso. If I replaced my Chansey 20% of the time with Pinsir, would that make me less exploitable? Obviously not.

To take this example:

This I think kind of demonstrates the problem. It's not just about how strong the move is, but how punishable it is. If they can't respond in any active way if I click blizz, whereas other moves let rhydon chunk me, than I should click blizz 100% of the time (unless I'm severely behind and need to claw my way back with lots of risky plays like this).

Optimal vs exploitive​


While thinking about how to exploit X frequency of Y is an interesting discussion, it assumes you know what the ideal frequency of Y. We don't even know what the optimal frequency is (or frequencies, if there's multiple equilibrium strategies exist).

So the question of how to exploit something is harder than what the correct frequency is. And it's also less useful, whenever you exploit you are yourself being vulnerable to explotation, so it's only ever relevant in a tournament setting where you 'prep' against an opponent, if at all, and never relevant on ladder. The classical example of how exploiting means making yourself exploitable is RPS. You know you can exploit 100% rock by going 100% paper.

That said, I do think that thinking about how to exploit too low a freq and too high freq is relevant to finding out the ideal req, not sufficient by any means, but relevant. But maybe it's better to communicate our intuitions about what the ideal frequency is. If an AI specifically was designed or trained to play this gen, what would its Chansey freq would be? But before attempting such a hard question we have to lay the ground with some assumptions and theory.

Chansey value​


First, let's talk about the value of each pokemon relative to the other 5 pokemon on the team, I think this gen has a very disparate value of between the 1st best mon on a team, and the last best mon on a team, unlike other gens. We can argue about why this is, maybe because there's less mons, maybe because there's no active banning system, but if we take the trouble of giving each mon a relative value, like we do in chess (Pawn=1, Knight=3, Bishop=3.3, Rook=5, etc...) most of us would argue that Chansey, Tauros and Lax would be above average, and Chansey would be first by a lot.

And this is what gets some people confused, a lower frequency doesn't mean a lower value necessarily. I think chansey has a value of 2, Tauros 1.3 and Snorlax 1.4. (Eggy 1.2, starmie 1.2, zam 1, zapdos 1, Rhydon 0.9, Gengar 0.8). It's hard to normalize the values, but I think of Zam as 1, it's goes at least even against almost anything and it takes between half an opposing mon and 1.5 opposing mons, rarely 0 or 2.

Disparity between value and frequency​

Now this is what gets some people confused, a lower frequency doesn't mean a lower value necessarily. Dangerkid's saying

"It's not just about how strong the move/mon is, but how punishable it is."

I think he's correct. Disparity between value and frequency can only occur when it is punishable, like the example of modified RPS, the payoff of R win is higher, but it's still checked by paper, so the frequency becomes lower, and the frequency that goes up is actually the check/counter.

If the mon were so OP that it didn't have counters, then it would actually have a high frequency AND a high value, like MewTwo in ubers. Additionally I might add that the exploitability doesn't need to be of the individual mon, but of a team that contains it, and a team merely having a mon is much rare to exploit on its own.

Conclusions of naïve model​


Taking these assumptions, that a chansey is worth 2 zams, we should assume that the ideal chansey frequency would be 100%. As it is not possible to exploit 100% chansey. Or, it would mean that 100% chansey is exploitable.

I think some dynamics may be missing from this model, team comp wise, Chansey competes with other mons for the special wall slot, so it's possible that other mons simply fulfill that role much better. Or it might be about synergies and team comps.

Synergies and team comps, specifically HO​


We have to talk about HO, it's very hard to fit Chansey on HO, so we would see lower Chansey Freq because of it. And in those HO teams, the value of a chansey might not be the same as in a wall team, so a team that chooses HO may lose value on their not just by not selecting chansey, but by not having wall support in general (suppose for example that Chansey needs at least 1 other special wall to function effectively). Furthermore the value of chansey on the opposing team is greatly reduced as well, if team A has one starmie and a Chansey on their team, the opposing chansey is worth like 2 points, as it's a whole wincon. But if Team A has 6 mon that can boom or hyper beam chansey, then chansey is all of a sudden worth 1 point or less.

I personally think that 2 special walls and 4 offensive mons work fine, but that doesn't mean that 6 offensive mons work too.

Actually, 6 Boom/Hbeam HyperOffense is exactly a team crafted against chansey, if you replace one offensive mon with a special attacker that can't boom, like starmie, then chansey gets its value. The way to exploit 100% chansey, might be to slap in 6 offensive mons.


That said, I never thought of HO as a counter to Stall comp, it might be worth it to have a lot of matches be played with asymmetric rules, like one team has to use chansey, and the other has not to. And see what comes out, it should end up as stall vs HO, and we might get a veredict on whether one or the other has an advantage or it's drawish. Even if it's drawish, HO might fare well against other choices, which might explain low frequency, high value chansey.
 
And this is what gets some people confused, a lower frequency doesn't mean a lower value necessarily. I think chansey has a value of 2, Tauros 1.3 and Snorlax 1.4. (Eggy 1.2, starmie 1.2, zam 1, zapdos 1, Rhydon 0.9, Gengar 0.8).
I'm a little biased because I use laxless and tauroless most of the time, but I definitely agree with Chansey being of the highest value. In learning my team structure, I began to realize that many of my losses that were on me were because I wasn't valuing Chansey as high as I should have :blobthinking:. She definitely does the most heavy lifting compared to the other mons. And in a consistent way I might add :blobpex:I would disagree with Rhydon though:blobpensive: because he has both defensive and offenseive value that is very high on the sorts of teams that I use. But I know most people don't play like me so I don't know how that fits into the frequency/value argument because frequently Rhydon is more expendable on a team with Lax and Tauros on it.
 
Just want to say that I am getting a lot better. When I first started using no lax no tauros, I was low 70s elo and could just barely crack 1500. I am now 80% elo near the top 20 and have taken games off nearly everyone competing on the ladder. I'm gonna keep improving! When I first started gen 1, I'll be honest, I wasn't that into it :') I didn't like how I seemed to be so often in tauros vs tauros 50/50s and similar situations that felt a little out of my control. So in a last effort to get into the gen, because I liked playing the gameboy game so much, I decided to try to make a team of my own that was a little unconventional that would give me more turns to think and outplay. I've been constantly working on my tuaroless/laxless team and it might not be the most optimal, but the wins feel so good knowing that this little team is my own :') It definitely has given me a love of competitive pokemon! <3
 
Just want to say that I am getting a lot better. When I first started using no lax no tauros, I was low 70s elo and could just barely crack 1500. I am now 80% elo near the top 20 and have taken games off nearly everyone competing on the ladder. I'm gonna keep improving! When I first started gen 1, I'll be honest, I wasn't that into it :') I didn't like how I seemed to be so often in tauros vs tauros 50/50s and similar situations that felt a little out of my control. So in a last effort to get into the gen, because I liked playing the gameboy game so much, I decided to try to make a team of my own that was a little unconventional that would give me more turns to think and outplay. I've been constantly working on my tuaroless/laxless team and it might not be the most optimal, but the wins feel so good knowing that this little team is my own :') It definitely has given me a love of competitive pokemon! <3
That's amazing! I'm happy for you! Do you perhaps use Wrap or Clamp alongside Toxic mons? I've heard that combo can be good on some situations with all the chip damage, i'm very curious about someone doing good without the best 2 mons in the game ngl
 
Just want to say that I am getting a lot better. When I first started using no lax no tauros, I was low 70s elo and could just barely crack 1500. I am now 80% elo near the top 20 and have taken games off nearly everyone competing on the ladder. I'm gonna keep improving! When I first started gen 1, I'll be honest, I wasn't that into it :') I didn't like how I seemed to be so often in tauros vs tauros 50/50s and similar situations that felt a little out of my control. So in a last effort to get into the gen, because I liked playing the gameboy game so much, I decided to try to make a team of my own that was a little unconventional that would give me more turns to think and outplay. I've been constantly working on my tuaroless/laxless team and it might not be the most optimal, but the wins feel so good knowing that this little team is my own :') It definitely has given me a love of competitive pokemon! <3
I get a lot of Chansey freeze wars. I am also new to the tier. I also get a lot of Tauros dittos. Seems like luck-based dittos are common in RBY OU low ladder. And of course there are many sleep leads which also immediately starts the game off with a luck-based accuracy and possibly speed tie check.
 
Chansey freeze wars are cringe imo, you absolutely have the option to just not take that line. Paralyse it and swap to Lax or something. Also if you have an Ice type you can make it do something else

As for Tauros dittos, you should only initiate them if you're desperate, or if you have an advantage over the opposing Tauros (chip or para). If the opponent is initiating, Normal resists can allow you to chain switch. If that's not available, then winning HB mind games is at least skill-based. It's generally only a coinflip if it's endgame with no other options available

Only one of the top 3 leads uses sleep, and it pretty reliably lands it against the other top leads. Most sleep leads should have a backup plan anyway, so although there is a degree of luck, you should eventually be landing sleep anyway to balance things.

I genuinely don't think 50-50s are that big of a deal, but I also try to avoid them so I suspect I see them less often than the prior posters. Settling for 50-50s is poor play imo since you're taking a line with no inherent advantage. Not saying they're totally unavoidable ofc, just that it's both good and possible to limit them
 
As for Tauros dittos, you should only initiate them if you're desperate, or if you have an advantage over the opposing Tauros (chip or para). If the opponent is initiating, Normal resists can allow you to chain switch. If that's not available, then winning HB mind games is at least skill-based. It's generally only a coinflip if it's endgame with no other options available
To expand on this for newer players, I'd like to mention that there's a lot to take into account in mid-game Tauros mirrors. You need to consider what the game state will look like if you lose the war, if you win the war, and how your opponent sees that game state too. If Tauros is your opp's only way to make progress, you can aim to punish more timid plays, and similarly you can make bolder plays if your opp expects you to be more careful with your bull.

12-XVI I encourage you to try to analyze (maybe overanalyze lol) the next time you get a mid-game Tauros war, to see if you can reason out why staying in VS switching is better. There's no universal truth in it, but you'd be surprised how much a seemingly true 50-50 can be exploited by just looking at the game better than your opponent.
 
I did it!!! Holy moly. Genuinely dk how I did it. Thanks everyone for the games.


 
My problem with this is that the counterplay to early Sing Chansey is just not very strong. People are already switching Eggy (or sometimes even Jynx) on Chansey T1 a fair amount, and they're already trying to hit a couple Ice moves into it before the Sing lands, and it definitely makes the strategy less dominant, but it's still completely fine for the Sing Chansey player even when that happens - freeze luck is the only way to really gain an inch on them even when you know it's coming. When people need to run Jynx, a pokemon that has held a ~40% tournament winrate for years, to try and gain an edge on Sing Chansey, that's when you know it's really strong.

One of the best and most underexplored answers is double sleepers with t1 twave, maybe that is something I can see working. When you have a backup sleeper to actually help you break through the first sleep block it makes a lot more sense. Maybe that's a direction teams could take in the future, I'll have to play around with it
It's 2026, and after the rise in RBY OU of t1 switching to Eggy to counter t1 switch to Chan, and now even Jynx to counter t1 switch to Eggy
(Ladder leaders atm Ebola and Endlesssummer usually repping Gar to Jynx t1, and often a 3rd sleeper),

...This is why t1 twave is still very punishable. Especially for Eggy teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2679372472

Aramanth, I've benefited pretty greatly by your guide on RBY openings, and your posts through the OU thread.

1. Do you think the Eggy/Sing Chansey/Jynx rock-paper-scissors still holds? Has it been tilted?

2. I feel I'm seeing 1,000% more lead Gengar than 2021 when you wrote the guide to openings. Would you consider that as "close enough to the Jynx opening lines", or its own 4th element in the rock/paper/scissors?
 
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It's 2026, and after the rise in RBY OU of t1 switching to Eggy to counter t1 switch to Chan, and now even Jynx to counter t1 switch to Eggy
(Ladder leaders atm Ebola and Endlesssummer usually repping Gar to Jynx t1, and often a 3rd sleeper),

...This is why t1 twave is still very punishable. Especially for Eggy teams.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2679372472

Aramanth, I've benefited pretty greatly by your guide on RBY openings, and your posts through the OU thread.

1. Do you think the Eggy/Sing Chansey/Jynx rock-paper-scissors still holds? Has it been tilted?

2. I feel I'm seeing 1,000% more lead Gengar than 2021 when you wrote the guide to openings. Would you consider that as "close enough to the Jynx opening lines", or its own 4th element in the rock/paper/scissors?
The pure Rock/Paper/Scissors was a simplification at the time and is a very, very heavy simplification today, especially as Exeggutor has trended heavily away from Hyper Beam / Double-Edge which makes it suffer Jynx rather than beat it

My understanding of the game currently is very intuitive to myself but not very formalized in ways that I can quickly explain, I'd have to sit down and figure out how to put all that intuition to words, but primarily there has been a huge huge HUGE shift towards more sleepers in every team, most players averaging >1.5 per team now, something that would have been pretty unthinkable 5 years ago.

As people have gotten less easily exploitable by a single sleeper with an advantageous line, and especially as people have figured out that monosleeper teams can be completely overwhelmed if something bad happens to the one sleeper, it has become more and more of an arms race where whoever can fit more sleep moves has the better chances to get a lead from the start.


The concept of the RPS is still useful: if you see someone loading excessive Jynx, normal move Eggy can be a good punish; if you see someone relying on sing Chansey only sleeper too often, Jynx+Rhydon structures can be a good punish (with strong upsides vs Ice Beam through Jynx, and strong upsides vs Seismic Toss through Rhydon). Ultimately, if people are loading 2021 teams or making 2021 mistakes, you have to bring the 2021 exploits, so it's good to be aware of all these dynamics.

There's just a lot more that you need to also know about nowadays, including Gengar as you mentioned, the landscape of the 'most common teams' has shifted a ton - but understanding the building blocks of years past definitely still helps, just be aware that the things the guide described went from covering nearly everything in the meta, to only covering a relatively rare niche
 
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