OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

[Believer of GXE]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a VR is supposed to do. It's not supposed to represent how good a mon is when plaved on teams that support it or when placed on good teams, otherwise the VR would be VERY top-heavy and all swords dance sweepers would be OU.

How do I say something like Chansey is S-Tier....To summarize how Chansey is S-Tier is what it's S-Tier for, and that's performing well vs. the total sum of what the meta is. The meta is comprised of which mons gets used. What gets used is measured in statistics via the monthly usage rates. Usage rate data segregated into the 1760+ GXE category is the most useful of that data. To say Chansey is S-Tier for example would be vs the usage data and not for example exactly this team: Tauros,Persian,Snorlax,kangkaskan,pinsir and Hitmonlee.
Because Chansey vs that team is F-Tier....
It's Chansey vs all 149 that makes it still S-Tier.
But it only gets to be S-Tier if it's supported correctly though ...it can't be Chansey is with like all Weedles and have the Chansey perform as S-Tier, because swapping as a mechanic is part of why Chansey is S-Tier. How well does each mon swap in and out of stuff is based off of what they are on the team with.
So in essence why Chansey is S-Tier is in part that it has the right things on the team to pair with, otherwise it isn't S-Tier. The right things on the team are dictated by what I know I'll end up facing, and what I end up facing is based off of usage rates. If usage rates change, than VR changes for certain mons depending on what's getting used more or less often.

 

[Soda_Eesti]

So in essence why Chansey is S-Tier is in part that it has the right things on the team to pair with, otherwise it isn't S-Tier.

Well yes if you are literally incapable of pairing good mons with chansey its F tier, but thats not how mons works.

Chansey is able to put up an A tier preformance vs other mons because it is good and not outclassed (in fact it is the outclasser.)

Saying "Its only good if you pair it with good mons!" doesnt help your argument. A VR is a snapshot based on how good the top 16 rby circuit players and SPL players think they are, which then tells us ~how often it should be used.

If you struggle to understand that some teams are bad with a mon or that some mons are good on certain structures without being explicitly told thats fine and dandy but we have samples with explanations for a reason.

If you really wanna die on this hikl think of it this way: A mon on the VR is ranked based on the value it would provide on a good team over other pokemon and how good those teams are due to having it.

 

[Believer of GXE]

Well yes if you are literally incapable of pairing good mons with chansey its F tier, but thats not how mons works.

Chansey is able to put up an A tier preformance vs other mons because it is good and not outclassed (in fact it is the outclasser.)

Saying "Its only good if you pair it with good mons!" doesnt help your argument. A VR is a snapshot based on how good the top 16 rby circuit players think they are, which then tells us ~how often it should be used.

If you struggle to understand that some teams are bad with a mon or that some mons are good on certain structures thats fine and dandy but we have samples with explanations for a reason.

If you really wanna die on this hikl think of it this way: A mon on the VR is ranked based on the value it would provide on a good team over other pokemon and how good those teams are due to having it.

If I may a hypothetical to you though.
What VR ranking do you consider each of these? Rock, Paper, Scissors?
Let's say Two players are playing Rock, Paper, Scissors against each other on a online platform.
And you have to rate the viability ranking of each of them.
But you also know the usage rate data for the month is showing this:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

That makes rock temporarily S-Tier, even if they are all the same tier otherwise. Yes or no?

Example:
Rock is S-Tier
Paper is B- Tier
Scissors is F-Tier
For the example VR list.


And this is what I'm trying to say happened to cloyster, that because people are essentially using rock 39% of the time, it then makes cloyster S-Tier because of why everyone is using this clump of things(Tauros,Snorlax,Chansey,Exeggutor) that cloyster plays well vs this. This is like having my opp use rock 39% so I turn have to use rock based off of why they also use paper lower than scissors. So I have to use cloyster to overcompensate for the clump of 4. because I see rock being used too much.

Here is my example again:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

See how others using rock too much makes it mathematical that you have to also use rock too?
Its not that rock is intrinsically S-Tier it's that other people using exact things creates the viability ranking.

Edit: although in pokemon some things are intrinsically S-Tier because of like how Aces in poker are intrinsic to being the best. There are some mons that are intrinsic, like Mewtwo and Mew, but they were banned for being intrinsic to winning. Everything else is considered intrinsic to being balanced enough that each mon isn't intrinsic to winning. Therefore S-Tier is considered something less than what is considered to be intrinsic to winning otherwise it would be Uber, Uber as a tier ranking would be above S-Tier.

So my point being that if everything in the game is considered to being balanced enough that they aren't intrinsic to winning, why would Tauros find it's usage rate at what it is? Why would Snorlax find it's usage rate at what it is?
What about Chansey or exeggutor? They aren't intrinsic to winning so why play them 9 to 10 out of 10 times?
If everyone is...that makes the clump of 4 being either all or some of them are then Uber and they aren't being accurately classified as such or why have that clump being used at the usage rates they are? I think the game itself has so many things to expand to because of stuff like this.
Things that I think could happen?
Tauros is Uber? No.
Snorlax is Uber? No.
Chansey is Uber? Maybe.
Exeggutor is Uber? No.

Chansey has more characteristics to being similar to the Uber things than the others do.

But I'm getting off the original focal point that the main message is that if those 4 things are all used at rates above 70% than I'll net 2-3 or 4 of them often every single game, and I'll slowly bring cloyster to the victory that it deserves!!!!

 

[Sabelette]

what could possibly be the difference between a game in which all 3 options are mathematically equal in outcome and a game with 151 options (ignoring movesets) where you pick 6 and all of them are completely different in ability and outcome

 

[Believer of GXE]

what could possibly be the difference between a game in which all 3 options are mathematically equal in outcome and a game with 151 options (ignoring movesets) where you pick 6 and all of them are completely different in ability and outcome

I'm trying to make the analogy that other people using rock more often, (as well as paper less than scissors) that than makes rock optimal or S-Tier. This is what happened in pokemon where everyone is using Rock too much, but in pokemon it's considered in clumps.
If I clump things based off priority, priority is to find clumps of highly used things and use 1 or 2 things to combat the clump. If I find the 4 most used mons all have 1 common thing that is on average the best vs them of all other choices, I can't not use that.
Cloyster is S-Tier based off of why that I know a clump exists. Its like I always have this thing mathematically better most of the time, it makes no sense to say the two games can't be compared, pokemon being more complex is obvious.

 

[Sabelette]

you are wrong and people have explained why you’re wrong, including that cloyster doesn’t actually beat those 4 in a 6v6, it only beats them 1v1 in optimal circumstances like hitting clamp on chansey over and over, that these 4 except tauros are not on all teams, that they can use moves that help them beat cloyster, that cloyster is walled by starmie, and so on, but you just want to insist on your logic being correct regardless

please actually read what is being said to you, or just go play cloyster on 100% of your teams on ladder and join some tournaments and get a reality check when you start losing games

 

[Believer of GXE]

you are wrong and people have explained why you’re wrong, including that cloyster doesn’t actually beat those 4 in a 6v6, it only beats them 1v1 in optimal circumstances like hitting clamp on chansey over and over, that these 4 except tauros are not on all teams, that they can use moves that help them beat cloyster, that cloyster is walled by starmie, and so on, but you just want to insist on your logic being correct regardless

please actually read what is being said to you, or just go play cloyster on 100% of your teams on ladder and join some tournaments and get a reality check when you start losing games

Cloyster wins vs Tauros unless what? T bolt is like 10% so 90 to 10
Cloyster wins vs Snorlax like idk isn't 70 to 30 more than fair? Considering even if it's behind.
Cloyster wins vs exeggutor...if it had to...this isn't usually how that goes down, but as long as something is asleep already, it's still 49% vs sleep powder even.
Cloyster is questionable vs Chansey. It still has explosion
But it still has explosion and that goes for all of those too...non of them like tanking explosion.

Your option is to say swapping exists, but if swapping exists for one it exists for two.
Yes you can go starmie, I can go Chansey too, that's not the point, the point is I condensed your 4 into my 1.
That doesn't mean I get the value of 4, I'm just saying if each mon is considered for the team, they should be able to get 1to1 or more of value. Cloyster if considering the range it will face on average should have anybody be able to use it and it would be good.
To determine the value of it, I can see it will on average have 0.25% chance or more vs each of the 4 of them. If they only use 3 of those? I need to cloyster to be able to win 33% vs each, which I still see feasible.
I know from usage stats i get to face those often. What should i want to face them with? I'm choosing Cloyster.
I'm saying cloyster captures a gigantic clump of things that it can do moderately okay against, maybe not thrilling great.

 

[Zpice]

Cloyster is S-Tier based off of why that I know a clump exists...

Your option is to say swapping exists, but if swapping exists for one it exists for two.
Yes you can go starmie, I can go Chansey too, that's not the point, the point is I condensed your 4 into my 1...

I know from usage stats i get to face those often. What should i want to face them with? I'm choosing Cloyster.
I'm saying cloyster captures a gigantic clump of things that it can do moderately okay against, maybe not thrilling great.

Just so it doesn't look like I'm completely trolling, I do want to present a team I've been using for a bit that seems pretty fun based on first impressions:
- GarEggCloyDon Laxless
Link (click sprites): https://pokepast.es/9eeadb058a752f23

I've been using this team with decent results. While it is a little bit on the slower end, Cloyster & Rhydon are known to be solid defensively outside of TBolt Tauros and Gengar/Egg are able to make things a lot less worrying in the event they are still in the game (Gengar beats EQless Tauros, Exeggutor beats or trades Blizzard/FBlastless Tauros barring paralysis cheese and other luck elements), and I will simply hax my opponent in the Tauros ditto (ggwp)

I have two examples of this team in action.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2478654333-u24x15v204p388mis6s66v017qjqckepw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2406537187-rl2qwqv14seotbcjie2v9f278xdfbefpw?p2

I'm slowly taking steps into learning RBY OU alongside my journey in Lower Tiers and I'm interested in finding out what more cool innovations that could be made in the future. All love folks.

 

[Believer of GXE]

View attachment 786446

Just so it doesn't look like I'm completely trolling, I do want to present a team I've been using for a bit that seems pretty fun based on first impressions:
- CloyGarEggDon Laxless
Link (click sprites): https://pokepast.es/f989de23635a8e03

I've been using this team with decent results. While it is a little bit on the slower end, Cloyster & Rhydon are known to be solid defensively outside of TBolt Tauros and Gengar/Egg are able to make things a lot less worrying in the event they are still in the game (Gengar beats EQless Tauros, Exeggutor beats or trades Blizzard/FBlastless Tauros barring paralysis cheese and other luck elements), and I will simply hax my opponent in the Tauros ditto (ggwp)

I have two examples of this team in action.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2478654333-u24x15v204p388mis6s66v017qjqckepw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2406537187-rl2qwqv14seotbcjie2v9f278xdfbefpw?p2

I'm slowly taking steps into learning RBY OU alongside my journey in Lower Tiers and I'm interested in finding out what more cool innovations that could be made in the future. All love folks.

It has a gigantic Jynx weakness, where if you miss hypnosis turn 0 (40%) and you swap Chansey and Jynx freezes you turn 1 (9%), which is like 5% of the time....it has nothing to swap into jynx's blizzard/psychic range and has to check Jynx by sacking instead of switching something in.
Or its just weak to Jynx in general because your Gengar has to face the brunt of being the lead anyways.
I bet your Chansey gets frozen a lot.
Every blizzard you block is by Chansey nearly because Gengar faces the problems of being a lead, and Cloyster is seldom ever for blocking blizzards, even though it can, but it depends on which thing is using blizzard vs you. But I bet a million your Chansey is frozen.
But it isn't that bad honestly, just saying how I would think to beating it.

 

[Zpice]

It has a gigantic Jynx weakness, where if you miss hypnosis turn 0 (40%) and you swap Chansey and Jynx freezes you turn 1 (9%), which is like 5% of the time....it has nothing to swap into jynx's blizzard and has to check it by sacking instead of switching something in.

Here are my methods of answering Jynx outside of gambling Hypnosis.
- Trading with Jynx T1 with Explosion: Gengar Explosion vs. Jynx: 331-389 (99.3 - 116.8%) -- 94.9% chance to OHKO
^ Jynx Psychic vs. Gengar: 159-188 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO | Gengar is allowed one switch barring crits in a dire situation
- Stalling with Chansey & Cloyster: Blizzard has limited PP. Back Jynx might be a bit of a struggle but enough PP stalling should reduce the likelihood of Blizzard freezes and Cloyster takes between 33-40 for Psychic anyway, so it has a bit of a cushion in the event it pivots into the wrong move.
- Tauros, reliable revenge killer post-sleep, Earthquake is fine to bait Counter, otherwise Body Slam if Jynx is still around in the late-game
- Rhydon, OHKOs paralysed Jynx, see: Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Jynx: 343-404 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While Jynx might cause some minor issues, I do think something like Lapras may pose a strong threat against this team, which Thunderbolt Chansey helps navigate the matchup against Lapras. Otherwise, I do think it is a somewhat functional team against a lot of structures within the metagame based on my first experiences. Hope all is well with you

 

[Believer of GXE]

So if you gamble explosion my Jynx gains another 5% (the times you don't KO it).

You miss hypnosis when you do use it 40%, because your faster I get a 20% to wake up so 60% of the time I get a 20% to wake up turn 0 which is 12% 60%-12% is 48%. So your hypnosis only lands 48% with successful sleep being the outcome. With all of the math after that I think it comes to like 55% for your hypnosis to land instead of Jynx lovely kiss being the thing that landed instead.
.....But It can't be 45% of the time your using Chansey and cloyster to block blizzards from Jynx without facing at least 4 on average blizzards landing on your Chansey, because significant damage to cloyster would happen if you tried swapping that in. because you can't really use cloyster to swap into jynx blizzards because of psychic being that you don't have anything to take a Jynx psychic other than Chansey, so Chansey ends up ultimately getting frozen often. Like
..be realistic your Gengar lost the sleep war and your swapping what? Your swapping cloyster? which is slower? to block the Jynx blizzard? Your Chansey has to do 100% of the work because cloyster can't block the blizzard without being wrong about psychic often. Then you'll be a frozen freezy chansey half of the time.


...and Jynx vs Gengar has explosion being losing because of the 5% of the time it isn't a trade.
Also if your Chansey has thunderbolt....what are you using for paralysis? Do you have any thunder waves? If it's limited to stun spore exeggutor your gonna have some problems.

 

[Sabelette]

Cloyster wins vs Tauros unless what? T bolt is like 10% so 90 to 10

Google Tauros critical hit rate, paraslam chance, Blizzard miss chance, etc. One crit from Slam-Slam-Beam = Tauros beats Cloyster 1v1

Cloyster wins vs Snorlax like idk isn't 70 to 30 more than fair? Considering even if it's behind.

In a vacuum, yes, now try switching into Lax, which is the main way Cloy gets in

Cloyster wins vs exeggutor...if it had to...this isn't usually how that goes down, but as long as something is asleep already, it's still 49% vs sleep powder even.

Again, have fun getting in vs it

Cloyster is questionable vs Chansey. It still has explosion

"Questionable" is a weird way to say "hit Clamp 5-8 times in a row or you get Twaved and instantly lose." Explosion = your Cloyster no longer beats all 4 of these mons like you're insisting it does

Still not addressing that Starmie exists either

But it still has explosion and that goes for all of those too...non of them like tanking explosion.

Okay, so does Gengar. Does Gengar beat all of these? Is Exploding on them for most of their HP a win? As I see it, trading your Cloyster for 80% of a Tauros or whatever isn't the same thing as winning the matchup

Your option is to say swapping exists, but if swapping exists for one it exists for two.
Yes you can go starmie, I can go Chansey too, that's not the point, the point is I condensed your 4 into my 1.
That doesn't mean I get the value of 4, I'm just saying if each mon is considered for the team, they should be able to get 1to1 or more of value. Cloyster if considering the range it will face on average should have anybody be able to use it and it would be good.
To determine the value of it, I can see it will on average have 0.25% chance or more vs each of the 4 of them. If they only use 3 of those? I need to cloyster to be able to win 33% vs each, which I still see feasible.
I know from usage stats i get to face those often. What should i want to face them with? I'm choosing Cloyster.
I'm saying cloyster captures a gigantic clump of things that it can do moderately okay against, maybe not thrilling great.

Okay, you know what other Pokemon have gigantic clumps of OU things they do moderately okay against? Every single Pokemon in OU, and lots that aren't. Lapras has a pretty good matchup into Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey, and Exeggutor, and certainly a better Starmie matchup than Cloyster does. Venusaur has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Victreebel has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Articuno has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Moltres has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Looking at it in a vacuum is just fundamentally misunderstanding the game and refusing to look at the flaws in your logic, such as, again, the fact that some teams simply do not have any mons that are bad into Cloyster or don't allow it entry points without it taking paraslam risks or 50 from Psychic

 

[Believer of GXE]

Google Tauros critical hit rate, paraslam chance, Blizzard miss chance, etc. One crit from Slam-Slam-Beam = Tauros beats Cloyster 1v1

In a vacuum, yes, now try switching into Lax, which is the main way Cloy gets in


Again, have fun getting in vs it


"Questionable" is a weird way to say "hit Clamp 5-8 times in a row or you get Twaved and instantly lose." Explosion = your Cloyster no longer beats all 4 of these mons like you're insisting it does

Still not addressing that Starmie exists either


Okay, so does Gengar. Does Gengar beat all of these? Is Exploding on them for most of their HP a win? As I see it, trading your Cloyster for 80% of a Tauros or whatever isn't the same thing as winning the matchup


Okay, you know what other Pokemon have gigantic clumps of OU things they do moderately okay against? Every single Pokemon in OU, and lots that aren't. Lapras has a pretty good matchup into Tauros, Snorlax, Chansey, and Exeggutor, and certainly a better Starmie matchup than Cloyster does. Venusaur has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Victreebel has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Articuno has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Moltres has a pretty good matchup against all these guys. Looking at it in a vacuum is just fundamentally misunderstanding the game and refusing to look at the flaws in your logic, such as, again, the fact that some teams simply do not have any mons that are bad into Cloyster or don't allow it entry points without it taking paraslam risks or 50 from Psychic

I'm saying of those like Lapras, Moltres, Articuno and Victrebell like you mentioned, Cloyster stands out among those as the best answer to the clump of 4.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

If I may a hypothetical to you though.
What VR ranking do you consider each of these? Rock, Paper, Scissors?
Let's say Two players are playing Rock, Paper, Scissors against each other on a online platform.
And you have to rate the viability ranking of each of them.
But you also know the usage rate data for the month is showing this:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

That makes rock temporarily S-Tier, even if they are all the same tier otherwise. Yes or no?

Example:
Rock is S-Tier
Paper is B- Tier
Scissors is F-Tier
For the example VR list.


And this is what I'm trying to say happened to cloyster, that because people are essentially using rock 39% of the time, it then makes cloyster S-Tier because of why everyone is using this clump of things(Tauros,Snorlax,Chansey,Exeggutor) that cloyster plays well vs this. This is like having my opp use rock 39% so I turn have to use rock based off of why they also use paper lower than scissors. So I have to use cloyster to overcompensate for the clump of 4. because I see rock being used too much.

Here is my example again:
Rock 39%
Paper 27%
Scissors 34%

See how others using rock too much makes it mathematical that you have to also use rock too?
Its not that rock is intrinsically S-Tier it's that other people using exact things creates the viability ranking.

Edit: although in pokemon some things are intrinsically S-Tier because of like how Aces in poker are intrinsic to being the best. There are some mons that are intrinsic, like Mewtwo and Mew, but they were banned for being intrinsic to winning. Everything else is considered intrinsic to being balanced enough that each mon isn't intrinsic to winning. Therefore S-Tier is considered something less than what is considered to be intrinsic to winning otherwise it would be Uber, Uber as a tier ranking would be above S-Tier.

So my point being that if everything in the game is considered to being balanced enough that they aren't intrinsic to winning, why would Tauros find it's usage rate at what it is? Why would Snorlax find it's usage rate at what it is?
What about Chansey or exeggutor? They aren't intrinsic to winning so why play them 9 to 10 out of 10 times?
If everyone is...that makes the clump of 4 being either all or some of them are then Uber and they aren't being accurately classified as such or why have that clump being used at the usage rates they are? I think the game itself has so many things to expand to because of stuff like this.
Things that I think could happen?
Tauros is Uber? No.
Snorlax is Uber? No.
Chansey is Uber? Maybe.
Exeggutor is Uber? No.

Chansey has more characteristics to being similar to the Uber things than the others do.

But I'm getting off the original focal point that the main message is that if those 4 things are all used at rates above 70% than I'll net 2-3 or 4 of them often every single game, and I'll slowly bring cloyster to the victory that it deserves!!!!

All of this rests on the assumption that S-tier and Uber tier are as qualitatively distinct as you are saying in pokemon, which is just not the case. Tauros just is that good despite usage rates, for example. More importantly, rock paper scissor's wins and losses are decided in 1 v 1 head to heads. Paper vs rock, scissors vs paper, etc. That is NOT how pokemon matches are decided. They are team vs team in which sequence of moves A is pitted against sequence of moves B. And it is the sequences which determine the winner. Your whole conceptual framework is wrong from the very beginning.