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OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread
- Thread starter emma
- Start date
Personally, I just disagreed with your scientific method more than your conclusions. Your point essentially boiled down to "I reached 1500 elo w/o, thus it's the worst of the big 3." Exact quote: "As I mentioned above, the fact that I was able to reach 1500 elo without a Snorlax basically proves this in my eyes."
No, that's not how experiments work; your data don't support that conclusion. You provide evidence that snorlax is dropable. If that was your only conclusion, and you just said "Hey, Ive found some success dropping Snorlax," I would've said cool stuff and thanks for sharing. Lax has some issues that can be exploited.
But without doing the same experiment with chansey and tauros, you can't say anything about one mon being worse than another. You didn't test that, and poor interruption of the experimental data put me off more than saying ditto is S tier.
For instance, I've broken 1500 w/o chansey, and Ortheore did it with freaking ditto. Without a controled experiment, your just going off vibes like the rest of us, with the ladder as your lab. And it's fine to do that. Your opinions are welcome, and it's what this thread is for. But dont post ladder replays as fact and expect us to bow down.
No, that's not how experiments work; your data don't support that conclusion. You provide evidence that snorlax is dropable. If that was your only conclusion, and you just said "Hey, Ive found some success dropping Snorlax," I would've said cool stuff and thanks for sharing. Lax has some issues that can be exploited.
But without doing the same experiment with chansey and tauros, you can't say anything about one mon being worse than another. You didn't test that, and poor interruption of the experimental data put me off more than saying ditto is S tier.
For instance, I've broken 1500 w/o chansey, and Ortheore did it with freaking ditto. Without a controled experiment, your just going off vibes like the rest of us, with the ladder as your lab. And it's fine to do that. Your opinions are welcome, and it's what this thread is for. But dont post ladder replays as fact and expect us to bow down.
FYI, I didn't just hit 1500, I reached top 20 on the ladder without using Snorlax (ImJustSamu is highlighted because I DM'd this to him after he told me I'd never surpass him, which I was of course able to do with the greatest of ease). I didn't even use Cloyster. I ran Gar/Mie/Zam/Don and made it work. If you're going to argue the fact that I could "only" reach top 20 on the ladder, you're giving me a lot more credit as a player than I probably deserve. It's not like I'd be in the top 5 if I just switched something out for Snorlax and changed nothing else. No, I built a strong team and I played reasonably well with it, despite no Lax (which everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, told me was a terrible idea and that I would never break top 20 without Snorlax. Of course, when everyone tells me that I can't do something, I'm going to put everything I have into proving them wrong).
This is a fair point, actually. The reason I didn't test these, though, is because I never held the belief that Tauros and Chansey were dispensable in the first place. But it's fair to say that I could've tested teams without them anyway to control for my own biases.
Did you break top 20, though?
You reaching top 20 and your final game being snorlax is all we have proof of. We dont have any games besides one (Which is lost to time) and you didnt bother to show any losses, other wins, close games, only proof that your LAST game was laxless. (Which again is lost) You couldve laddered up to that point and we would never have known. Now im not saying you did this but you are presenting a statement with minimal evidence to back you up besides "It worked once dont worry about the rest of the time"
All you did was talk about how good chansey is and how bad lax is. This is not an "Experiment" as you didn't show both sides of the coin. You showed the small curated side that fit your agenda.
Yes Laxless is viable. Yes chanseyless is viable, yes bulless can be done. (But Shouldnt) There are no absolutes in rby. However you are presenting your entire argument as one.
Ladder is pretty terrible with a lot of inexperienced players, idk why hitting top 20 is considered an accomplishment lol. Also the 75 gxe kinda disproves your point because it’s the lowest out of everyone displayed in the screenshot. If you were using a snorlax team your win rate would prob be higher
I mean I only play super low level meme ladder games, trying to play every worthwhile fully evolved pokemon. But since this is the jank thread I'd say
You always need to gameplan for how to beat Tauros.
You always need to gameplan for how to beat Chansey.
You do not, necessarily, need to gameplan how to beat Snorlax. Often I just find that if you have a generically strong team, you can find a way past it, or at least you feel good about at least one of your options for getting past it.
For that reason I'd classify Tauros and Chansey as tier defining, therefore S tier on their own.
You always need to gameplan for how to beat Tauros.
You always need to gameplan for how to beat Chansey.
You do not, necessarily, need to gameplan how to beat Snorlax. Often I just find that if you have a generically strong team, you can find a way past it, or at least you feel good about at least one of your options for getting past it.
For that reason I'd classify Tauros and Chansey as tier defining, therefore S tier on their own.
I wouldn't go that far. You do absolutely need a plan for Snorlax, because it's a very powerful and immediate threat, especially if you don't have one of your own. My only point of contention (that was ridiculed, and now suddenly people are claiming it's always been believed, which is absolutely hilarious to me) is that climbing the ladder is more than doable without Snorlax and you just don't understand the game very well if you don't see why.
And who are you to anyone? Some jackass giving straight up abuse to other players because you're frankly nothing-burger ladder accomplishments don't get recognised? If your so good to talk down to others I can't wait to see how you'll do in SPL
Can we stop escalating and drop this? Definitely has run its course.
Yo this Prinz guy on ladder is pretty good I think he'll make it far
Kinda dumb question - If given a choice which pokemon do you think is the "best" to have put to sleep by the opponent ?
Been running through the non-OU pokemon on the ladder and Hypno is like just bulky enough that it has a decent chance to wake up later on in the game. Vaporeon has also awoken from nap time and won me a game here and there but obviously Vape is weak to electric attacks and walled by water types. It's a strange "slot" because you want your least valuable pokemon slept basically.
Been running through the non-OU pokemon on the ladder and Hypno is like just bulky enough that it has a decent chance to wake up later on in the game. Vaporeon has also awoken from nap time and won me a game here and there but obviously Vape is weak to electric attacks and walled by water types. It's a strange "slot" because you want your least valuable pokemon slept basically.
The issue with slower bulkier pokemon is that if they sponge a bunch of hits trying to wake, then depending on the scenario they may just die before they get the chance to do anything (this is mostly relevant lategame). You don't need to maximise bulk either- if a pokemon has decent longevity in certain key matchups (mostly Chansey), then you can exploit that specific matchup to burn sleep turns
For this reason I tend to favour pokemon that are fast and able to make a significant impact, while only needing passable bulk. TWave and high damage output in lategame scenarios are top of my list. Boom is especially nice, but most users have other issues as sleep fodder. Recover is also notable for if you wake earlier in the game against more passive foes. Another factor to consider is the ability to stay in on Explosion users, mostly Egg. Psychic types obviously have a significant edge here. Lastly, there's what a pokemon can do if it's not slept- it may act before the sleep user, sleep can miss, or the opponent might spread para first- you shouldn't be running garbage solely for the sake of being sleep fodder (make sure you've got other reasons for running said garbage lol).
In general, most leads are suitable as sleep fodder, since leading something you're not willing to absorb sleep with can make things awkward into opposing sleep leads. On that note, Zam and Star are probably the best candidates for sleep fodder, unless you decide you need them elsewhere on the team. They're almost always useful if they can wake, aren't too fazed by Egg, (or Cloy and Gar, albeit to varying degrees) and have reasonable opportunities to burn sleep turns. Egg and Hypno are slower pokemon that can work as sleep fodder. Jolteon is also decent sleep fodder, potentially waking on Zap or Chans, being faster than everything and a potent lategame threat
2025 tier list update:Recently reached 1500 elo with a team that doesn't use Snorlax, so I think I have a unique perspective on this.
(Proof: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1671958287)
S:
A:
B:
C1:
C2:
D:(unordered)
Chansey is the most indispensable of the "big 3," and in my view, at this stage in the meta, slightly edges out even Tauros. It's the only Pokémon in the game that is straight-up buffed by being paralyzed—that is to say, the benefits of getting your Chansey paralyzed utterly eclipse the downsides in a manner that may as well be referred to as a "buff," because that's essentially what it is. There's a reason many people will forfeit the moment their Chansey gets frozen; without Chansey in play, it becomes almost impossible to protect the rest of your team from status conditions in a meta where inflicting status serves as your primary win condition. I would liken losing your Chansey in RBY to hanging your queen in chess. It's a tremendous setback that is extremely difficult to come back from, and not having a Chansey on your team while your opponent has one is like being 75 meters behind in a 100 meter dash. It's that important. The choice to forgo Chansey on any serious team can only be described with one word—foolish.
Not much to say about Tauros—it's still indispensable, and the king to Chansey's queen, but its vulnerability to status conditions and inability to recover its health means that you REALLY have to pick your battles with it—a downside that Chansey lacks. Chansey can safely switch into every special attack in the game when paralyzed. Tauros cannot. That said, obviously, it's still the best kill switch in the game. I think people will always view Tauros as #1 because of its role as a sweeper—after all, Tauros is designed for scoring KOs, and Chansey isn't—but the thing is, Tauros needs a lot of support before it can get that late game sweep going in the first place, and Chansey is simply the best Pokémon at providing that support—and, therefore, the true MVP of the metagame.
Snorlax is overrated. As I mentioned above, the fact that I was able to reach 1500 elo without a Snorlax basically proves this in my eyes, especially when I didn't find the task particularly difficult. It goes without saying that Snorlax is strong, and can be a challenge to deal with—if you don't have one yourself, it's probably gonna take more than one of your Pokémon to deal with it (unless you run Porygon). However, Snorlax has a bevy of exploitable weaknesses that simply prevent it, in my eyes, from being the true undroppable S-tier Pokémon that everyone seems to think it is. For one thing, it gets outsped by Chansey and Rhydon. Any Snorlax that switches in on a healthy Chansey puts itself at risk of getting hit by all manner of status conditions. Since low speed means bad crit rate, Chansey is very likely able to take at least two hits before needing to switch out, which means that Snorlax has to dodge Sing three times in this scenario before its opponent pivots to another, more accurate sleeper. Snorlax is one of the worst Pokémon to have asleep or frozen. Rest is annoying to deal with, but the fixed two-turn wake up makes it extremely easy to exploit the wake up turn and simply put it back to sleep, or even just smack it with Alakazam Psychics until it dies in two or three hits (minding his high crit rate). Without Amnesia, it also struggles to deal with Porygon, which is just... kinda pathetic, really—and with Amnesia, you're running a suboptimal Snorlax that's even easier to exploit. Obviously, I'm not saying Snorlax is trash—I have it at the top of my A-tier, and it's still the third strongest Pokémon in the meta. But this notion that you can't make a good team without one is just utter nonsense. It is by far the least threatening of the big 3, and I think its popularity is more a measure of self-reinforcing groupthink than anything else. "It's true because the community says so," or "It's true because the numbers say so," rather than "It's true because you literally cannot win without Snorlax." This isn't GSC—you CAN go without Snorlax. It's just a very strong Pokémon that you probably should use. Nothing more.
Exeggutor is extremely annoying. Like, nothing kills it. Even moves that are supposed to kill it (Starmie's Blizzard) do a terrible job of killing it, and even then, it has such an easy time putting all its checks to sleep anyway. The only surefire way to KO an Exeggutor is to have it blow itself up—a scary prospect, which makes every encounter with this big dumb palm tree far more of a nail-biter than it ever feels like it needs to be. In my opinion, every team needs to pack a Rhydon, a Gengar, or both, simply because of this Pokémon alone. The only reason it's not higher than Snorlax is because when it blows up, at least it's gone for good.
Alakazam and Starmie are incredibly strong, but they're down here because they are absolutely terrible at fighting other special attackers, including themselves. An Alakazam cannot consistently close the deal on another Alakazam, which is a problem. Starmie has Thunderbolt to deal with members of its own species, I suppose, but Starmie's problem is having to run Thunderbolt in the first place when it would much rather be running STAB. Out of all Pokémon in the RBY meta, Starmie suffers the hardest from 4MSS, and it's a shame to see. I would also like Starmie more if it had a little bit more HP to supplement its decent physical bulk—but then, it would be even harder to two-shot it in the mirror match, I guess. Oh well.
Rhydon is good enough that I believe every team (at least of certain archetypes) needs to use it, but HAVING to use Rhydon also kinda sucks. Getting walled by Pokémon like Exeggutor and Cloyster blows, and moves like Rock Slide simply aren't strong enough (or accurate enough) to consistently deal with these threats. Plus, since Subsitute is garbage in this generation, it's liable to getting checked by all sleepers, as well, since they all outspeed him. Even Chansey can two-shot it with Ice Beam. Rhydon has a lot going against it, making him one of the harder meta Pokémon to use, but he's an absolute beast if you play him very intelligently.
Jynx is basically a less scary Exeggutor that gets STAB Blizzards and freeze immunity. Too bad it doesn't have the same bulk, and only runs three moves (nobody has ever seen Jynx use its fourth move. Ever). Cloyster gets the same Ice-type benefits, but of course trapping, while extremely annoying, is also super gimmicky and inconsistent.
Slowbro spends too many games dying before it can get all of its boosts up before it's able to wreak any real havoc, but it can be scary if you're not prepared for it, or if all of its checks are dead (which means you're in a pretty bad spot anyway). The problem is, even if its checks are crippled with status, they can still deal with Slowbro adequately.
Gengar would be C1-tier or higher if it had a better sleep move, or a slightly higher Attack stat, or wasn't weak to Psychic, or wasn't weak to Ground, or had ANY good STAB moves, or if Mega Drain had a higher base power, or if the most common leads in the game couldn't threaten to OHKO it, or if it wasn't speed tied with Tauros, or if it had any sort of consistency whatsoever. It really has everything going against it in this generation, doesn't it? The fact that it's usable in the meta at all is actually incredible. You could fix just ONE or TWO of those issues I mentioned, and Gengar would be an excellent Pokémon, all for the sheer utility of its Ghost typing alone—but to have all of those issues at once? It's just... a lot.
Jolteon gets to be in C because it's the fastest viable Pokémon, and it's capable of slapping Chansey around in a pinch. It has some respectable characteristics. I just don't care about Electric-types in this meta when you can just run Rhydon and shut them down completely. Zapdos gets to be much higher because it's much bulkier and Drill Peck is very strong, but it's underwhelming for the same reason. It's too bad moves like HP Ice and Roost didn't exist yet.
No changes. Everything I said here continues to be perfectly accurate, no surprises here.
My ability to reach top 20 on the ladder without Snorlax continues to not be a nothingburger accomplishment.
If you're reading this post, then statistically, my accomplishments prove that I am significantly better than you at laddering.
It depends on your team of course, but Starmie, Alakazam, and Gengar are among the better candidates. Not a dumb question at all.
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From the perspective of someone that just plays ladder games. I played everything that isn't in trash (Or Porygon) on ladder, basically until I got 2 losses with each pokemon. So most of the games are below 1200 but that's my level so whatever. That just makes my opinions janky lol. Ranks within tiers are ordered except for trash because in trash I couldn't come up with any way of using the pokemon.
S Tier - I haven't put Snorlax, I just feel like Snorlax is weak to wrap, freeze fishers and certain boostmons (Slowbro).
A Tier - Belongs on most teams
B Tier aka 6thmons - Depends what kind of game you want to play. I put Articuno and Lapras here, I felt like I had quite a bit of success with both to warrant it. Lapras is probably the best freeze fisher (Confuse Ray to buy extra turns without status blocking, bulky, sing). Articuno won me a fair few games when people expected Tauros instead.
C Tier - These pokemon can survive long enough to do something, but their damage output limits their usefulness. I didn't play with Porygon I threw it there on a vibe.
D Tier - In specific situations these pokemon can either win you games OR can deal a game changing amount of damage. In a lot of situations you don't get much, if any, value out of these pokemon. Wrapmons for example are often all or nothing. I threw parasect in here because it can be OHKO'd but it also has guaranteed sleep, so functionally works as a glass cannon.
E Tier - In specific situations these pokemon can become extremely hard to beat, but usually they don't do much for you. For example if "Ninjagmar" gets in against a paralyzed team it can become extremely hard to hit (Smokescreen + Confuse Ray).
F Tier - Better than trash. For example can cause paralysis consistently. Can explode etc.
I've been doing something very similar trying to make any mon work:
Hitmonlee with Meditate, HiJumpKick, Sub and bodyslam isn't "good" by any means but it does 80-95% to chansey and always two shots snorlax (52-61%).
So a paraspam team using Lee that gets ANY chip on these two mons has a good out to them. Much like any other fighting type, the fact psychic pokemon are around pretty much make it unusable in most cases. BUt, outside of Primepae it is the fastest fighting type and doesn't need submission. Would recommend trying it out.
Ditto i've used effectively once to stall a chansey out. As you can keep swapping it out to reset your softboil pp etc, but this was a low ladder game and it only happened once.
Hitmonlee looks fun in concept but like you said no psychics. Also the whole like a bunch of neutral stab special moves will 2HKO it, with neutral specials often dealing just under 50% anyway. My vibe is to get it to work you need to already be winning and there's a higher than normal chance it turns a winning position into a losing position for you. Even if we look at snorlax/chansey they could be running reflect or (much less likely) psychic.
Machamp by contrast, well against say starmie without psychic can take an extra hit. Which isn't much but is enough for me to just get it out of the trash.
My best ditto game (One of the few trashmons I tried) was I switched it in against a sleeping, set up amnesia lax. The 5 PP on everything is just way too limiting though.
Machamp by contrast, well against say starmie without psychic can take an extra hit. Which isn't much but is enough for me to just get it out of the trash.
My best ditto game (One of the few trashmons I tried) was I switched it in against a sleeping, set up amnesia lax. The 5 PP on everything is just way too limiting though.
Aight so farfetchd is a funny mon.
Set:
Substitute
Sand Attack
Body Slam
Slash
You gotta pair it with chansey for all those pesky special attackers, exeggutor is a must for rhydons, and jolteon helps with the Zapdos matchup.
Trash is absolutely what this mon is but its really fun to use.
I favour SD over Sub, as SD allows Farfetch'd to potentially break through ReflectLax. Slash forces a fairly consistent Restloop (not perfect though, as Fetch's crit rate isn't maxed), then on the turns Lax clicks Rest you can SD, then resume Slashing. If the opponent lets you get to +6, Body Slam will break through ReflectLax. That's unlikely to occur, but I have pulled it off in tournament so idk.
Fighting types struggle, but are definitely not all trash. Having a STAB that's super effective into at least half of every team is crazy good, and means that sometimes they can get great matchups. The Psychic (also Gar/Zap) issue is obviously a major handicap, but para support helps a lot, plus they can at least chip/pressure Psychics when they come in with stuff like SToss or BSlam (especially because these are really predictable switches). It's not great pressure and it doesn't outweigh how tough it can be to bring them in, but all I'm saying is that they're not worthless
Fighting types struggle, but are definitely not all trash. Having a STAB that's super effective into at least half of every team is crazy good, and means that sometimes they can get great matchups. The Psychic (also Gar/Zap) issue is obviously a major handicap, but para support helps a lot, plus they can at least chip/pressure Psychics when they come in with stuff like SToss or BSlam (especially because these are really predictable switches). It's not great pressure and it doesn't outweigh how tough it can be to bring them in, but all I'm saying is that they're not worthless
Yeah the thing that makes farfetch'd unique I think is swords plus agility but it's so weak. If I want to run sand attack I'm probably putting it on something like Jolteon to spread paralysis (force out an incoming pokemon due to accuracy drops). Maybe Sandslash is the next best candidate because it might help getting swords up against a blizzard user. It's kinda telling I'd prefer Confuse Ray to Smokescreen on Magmar though.
Nah, dual dance is directly outclassed by Scyther, which runs the exact same set but with HB>BS. No matter which way you slice it, Farfetch'd is just worse than everything that fills a comparable role.
Also the main premise of Sand Attack is that it's Farfetch'd's best option if you think that opponent is going to switch out to a hard counter (Don/Gar), but don't want to commit to a double switch. In that sense it's not really supporting a sweep bc you'd almost never use unless a hard counter is present to stop your sweep. Tbh I hadn't considered that Sandslash outclasses Fetch here (you're right though, it absolutely does) because Slash has an adequate movepool and can wear down its checks. It would therefore never run Sand Attack
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I have had a game with Sandslash as my last mon against a fully paralyzed team, but first it has to face down a full HP starmie. Managed the sand attack - Swords - EQ - EQ without getting hit (blizzard missed twice). I didn't end up winning because of course Tauros came in next on full health and got a blizzard freeze but that's rby sometimes (everything else had chip damage and was going to get OHKO'd)
I was thinking though about whether sub or sand attack is better, specifically for Sandslash
- The most common "weak" move is Blizzard, which starts at 90% accuracy (Means sand attack is in effect better than usual). Razor leaf is at 95% as well
- If you get hit, you "keep" the accuracy drop in effect vs sub where you have to decide whether to click it again
- Sub doesn't always buy you an extra turn (for example against Blizzard Starmie you are in OHKO range at 75% but it isn't guaranteed). It obviously can buy you the extra turn as well though (stab Blizzard users)
I was thinking though about whether sub or sand attack is better, specifically for Sandslash
- The most common "weak" move is Blizzard, which starts at 90% accuracy (Means sand attack is in effect better than usual). Razor leaf is at 95% as well
- If you get hit, you "keep" the accuracy drop in effect vs sub where you have to decide whether to click it again
- Sub doesn't always buy you an extra turn (for example against Blizzard Starmie you are in OHKO range at 75% but it isn't guaranteed). It obviously can buy you the extra turn as well though (stab Blizzard users)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2250410097-xvg3ghb391dlafzxa8n49nahry3iygdpw
I stole this Chanseyless team from whoever Bull & Yellow is on the ladder and have used it on and off for about half a year now: Alakazam/Starmie/Venusaur/Sandslash/Snorlax/Tauros. This is a pretty good game I played against Cholas... *cough cough* I mean Weezing Wonder. It's actually a pretty good team with a little luck.
I stole this Chanseyless team from whoever Bull & Yellow is on the ladder and have used it on and off for about half a year now: Alakazam/Starmie/Venusaur/Sandslash/Snorlax/Tauros. This is a pretty good game I played against Cholas... *cough cough* I mean Weezing Wonder. It's actually a pretty good team with a little luck.
Idk if these are good, but i wanted to share. Here are a few teams I built and have played around with. The descriptions wont be very detailed, its just my thoughts on the team for the most part. (And some replays.)
https://pokepast.es/562bb33c806929bb
This team is the one I remember the LEAST out of the teams i've built and are confident in, as I dont use it much, however, i brought it to tournament and won a few games with it. So theres that! I dont remember certain matchups this team has so i should probably practice with it again, but i know it works.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790249 (Yeah i know i didnt even show sandslash but idc.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-789619?p2
https://pokepast.es/091bec6c8566c9e0
This team is my favourite team, and my go to. Whenever someone in roa says "RBY Any1?" or i challenge someone to a friendly, im loading kingler. I love this team, the blizzard starmie mu is a little rough but its manageable, and it does fine in to most of if not everything else, zapdos is also a LITTLE rough but not much, you just have to make sure to not play poorly. I also brought this to a tour and won with it!
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-820141
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-820147
https://pokepast.es/ccf867af3e84b592
I like this team. My first and only team ive built with articuno. I forgot what i even built this team for lmao. Maybe Summer ssnl vs ortheore??? But i didnt even bring it so im not sure. This team's only rough matchup id say is starmie, but thats only if i play carelessly and let chansey die early. Other than that id say this team is pretty solid.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-815756 (Yes im including losing replays i dont think ive used this team much. I genuinely think this is the only replay im allowed to show. (I have another tho.))
https://pokepast.es/989d5abdaa996a9c
This is the first team ive made that i feel confident in. I brought this first versus river in RoA Team Trials. I went 2-1 because it was the first tournament i actually put my all into. But losing hard doesnt mean shit to how i feel about this team. For a while it was my go to team when it came to tournaments, likely being brought out before the team i built for that set, it got dethroned by GarEggZapLer but i do still think highly of this team despite not using it near as much anymore.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790246
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-789618?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2220455689-7lb7qmgwaz4zs0bk8c2ikmus8jcqvuupw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-798726
https://pokepast.es/d6f75725959644ee
Not even sure where ive brought this team to be honest. But i still love it. I think this team is fine. I dont have much to say on it besides its from when i was playing around with sets and experimenting. It doesnt even have that many replays, i only have 1 replay i can even remember. This team is old though, so I played around with it a little bit and changed the chansey set to a standard one.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2195471312
https://pokepast.es/b7d95ee49a2a2f88
THE basic bitch team. I have no clue what ive used this in, but you all know what it does so no need to tell yall.
https://pokepast.es/562bb33c806929bb
This team is the one I remember the LEAST out of the teams i've built and are confident in, as I dont use it much, however, i brought it to tournament and won a few games with it. So theres that! I dont remember certain matchups this team has so i should probably practice with it again, but i know it works.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790249 (Yeah i know i didnt even show sandslash but idc.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-789619?p2
https://pokepast.es/091bec6c8566c9e0
This team is my favourite team, and my go to. Whenever someone in roa says "RBY Any1?" or i challenge someone to a friendly, im loading kingler. I love this team, the blizzard starmie mu is a little rough but its manageable, and it does fine in to most of if not everything else, zapdos is also a LITTLE rough but not much, you just have to make sure to not play poorly. I also brought this to a tour and won with it!
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-820141
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-820147
https://pokepast.es/ccf867af3e84b592
I like this team. My first and only team ive built with articuno. I forgot what i even built this team for lmao. Maybe Summer ssnl vs ortheore??? But i didnt even bring it so im not sure. This team's only rough matchup id say is starmie, but thats only if i play carelessly and let chansey die early. Other than that id say this team is pretty solid.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-815756 (Yes im including losing replays i dont think ive used this team much. I genuinely think this is the only replay im allowed to show. (I have another tho.))
https://pokepast.es/989d5abdaa996a9c
This is the first team ive made that i feel confident in. I brought this first versus river in RoA Team Trials. I went 2-1 because it was the first tournament i actually put my all into. But losing hard doesnt mean shit to how i feel about this team. For a while it was my go to team when it came to tournaments, likely being brought out before the team i built for that set, it got dethroned by GarEggZapLer but i do still think highly of this team despite not using it near as much anymore.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790246
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-789618?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2220455689-7lb7qmgwaz4zs0bk8c2ikmus8jcqvuupw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-798726
https://pokepast.es/d6f75725959644ee
Not even sure where ive brought this team to be honest. But i still love it. I think this team is fine. I dont have much to say on it besides its from when i was playing around with sets and experimenting. It doesnt even have that many replays, i only have 1 replay i can even remember. This team is old though, so I played around with it a little bit and changed the chansey set to a standard one.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2195471312
https://pokepast.es/b7d95ee49a2a2f88
THE basic bitch team. I have no clue what ive used this in, but you all know what it does so no need to tell yall.
Last edited:
I have returned with more garbage. I also plan on taking a break for a little while, as irl seldom leaves me with time/mental health/energy to actually do my best these days
Haunter is a weird fucking pokemon to evaluate in terms of its viability. Obviously, it's outclassed by Gengar, which means you need to run Haunter alongside Gengar, which in turn heavily constrains teambuilding due to them both being weak to Ground and Psychic. But at the same time, running Haunter can potentially unlock its teammates to be much more aggressive, as its team will inevitably run multiple sleepers and Explosion users. This means there's more tolerance for things like sleepblockers (boom them), or you can be less concerned with the opponent using a sleeping mon to absorb boom, since the extra redundancy means you can re-establish advantage.
On its own, Haunter is very mediocre. Ghost/Poison is always a boom or bust typing, but Haunter's worse defenses relative to Gengar exacerbate this even more, making it very matchup/meta-dependent. Basically you're hoping for the opponent to have a non-EQ Lax, or one of the billion niche threats walled by Ghost types. Its regular attacks also lack punch given the lack of STAB, meaning Haunter struggles to handle Pokemon with Rest or recovery, unless it's hitting them super effectively or can wall them while building up Psychic spec drops (non-EQ RefLax being notable here). Explosion function also plays slightly differently, as it's usually too weak to ouright kill things, you're more likely using Explosion to set up revenge kills. This means you're overwhelmingly targeting slower pokemon, since booming first robs them of a turn, and they can be revenged by Tauros.
Overall I think Haunter isn't quite viable, but it's very close, and I'll probably use it again in the future. I'm lumping it in with Hitmonchan as being right on the borderline of whether it's worth using
Fearow is a bit better than Pidgeot and Farfetch'd, but really it still sucks and is heavily outclassed by Dodrio. I could honestly end this summary there, but I'll elaborate. Fearow's only realistic selling point over Dodrio is Mirror Move, but that's honestly a shitty selling point bc MM is a deeply flawed move due to failing if the opponent switches. Ironically, Pidgeot gets more value out of Mirror Move because it's less likely to force a switch. Anyway, MM's main applications are potentially copying missed sleep moves, or KOing a heavily weakened Rhydon by switching in on EQ, both of which are very niche, and again, are beaten by just switching. It also means that you're very frequently going to be using Fearow as sleep fodder
Its bulk and atrocious typing means it dies very easily, and a speed stat that isn't quite good enough doesn't help matters either. Even Drill Peck isn't that valuable since it struggles to switch in on Egg, the main target of that move (Psychic has a 55% chance to 2HKO without hax). Despite all these criticisms, it's still a threat capable of sweeping since it is a fast Normal type attacker after all. The trouble is, that's just a very crowded niche, and Fearow doesn't remotely measure up to the competition. In terms of viability, I have this grouped with Marowak and Venomoth, which is several steps from being the absolute worst, but still not close to being viable.
Parasect is funny, because the whole time I used it, it almost always outperformed my expectations, but that's also because I consistently marvel at how terribly designed this pokemon is. Being tied for the slowest fully evolved pokemon in the game AND being 2HKO'd by everything is not a recipe for success, but sleep+SD is a strong enough combo to make it kinda worth using. It also has a bit of versatility, being a playable lead vs everything that's not Jynx, but I actually prefer it outside the lead position, where you can pick and choose when to play it. Picking on Lax is amazing, especially RestLax.
I think the best set is Spore/SD/HBeam, and then your choice of MDrain or Stun Spore. I like MD to deal substantial damage to Don, although it's actually still a loss for Parasect- they both deal 80% to each other, but Don is faster. Stun Spore in theory is more useful, especially in the lead position or if you think Zapdos might switch in, but in practice I'm not a fan of it. I think you end up trying to do too many things at once, and attacking with SD boosts tends to be more rewarding, especially if your teammates provide para support- Parasect actually doesn't mind opponent-s trying to block its sleep.
When it comes time to play it, the expected outcome is that it will sleep something and then heavily damage something else before going out in a blaze of glory. That may not be super impressive, but honestly effectively trading one pokemon for one and a half is solid. With all that said, Parasect can also be volatile at times- being slow and frail means the opponent can sometimes just outguess you, and you don't get to make too many mistakes before it dies. Overall, I have it in the same tier as Magneton and Poliwhirl- I'd continue using it, but it's very borderline.
Hooo boy, Seadra is absolute ass. I knew before I started building around it that it's heavily outclassed, as although it's technically the best Agility Water type, Articuno is very similar and FAR better, not to mention Starmie is already faster than most things. I wish I could say I found some special niche for it, but there really isn't. Hydro Pump/Surf/Blizz/Agility is really its best set- I did explore Smokescreen, but the results weren't good. The only thing I can think of is that if you want an Agility sweeper and badly need coverage against Fire types in the same slot, then Seadra might be considered. But you have to actively be trying to make a bad team for that to be a valid niche.
Although Seadra's obviously outclassed it's also woefully ineffective. Offensively it's completely helpless against both Starmie and Chansey, which are ofc everywhere, and are 2 of the pokemon with the best longevity in the game. It also doesn't support the team in any way other than being an average special attacker. On the defensive end, it's absolutely useless. Its bulk is ok for an offensive threat (Tauros needs a crit to 2HKO), but it's nowhere near good enough for it to try to switch into neutral attacks, while its most valuable resistance (Ice) does nothing for it bc it can't threaten anything that uses Ice attacks. There are also other flaws, like its speed not quite being good enough and being forced to depend on HPump too much.
It's at least a potent enough attacker to threaten ReflectLax, and it doesn't mind teams that have pokemon it threatens super effectively (Don lol). If you're using it early game, expect it to achieve literally nothing. If you're using it as a sweeper it has greater potential, but more often than not you'll either lose or win without revealing it. I have Seadra in the same level as Butterfree and Beedrill.
Anyway, if you're curious, here is my personal VR for the trashmons that I've tested
Usable--------
Kadabra
Parasect, Poliwhirl, Magneton
Almost-------
Hitmonchan, Haunter
Bad-------
Fearow, Venomoth, Marowak
Farfetch'd, Pidgeot
Never------
Beedrill, Seadra, Butterfree
Golbat, Seaking
Ditto-------
Ditto
Haunter is a weird fucking pokemon to evaluate in terms of its viability. Obviously, it's outclassed by Gengar, which means you need to run Haunter alongside Gengar, which in turn heavily constrains teambuilding due to them both being weak to Ground and Psychic. But at the same time, running Haunter can potentially unlock its teammates to be much more aggressive, as its team will inevitably run multiple sleepers and Explosion users. This means there's more tolerance for things like sleepblockers (boom them), or you can be less concerned with the opponent using a sleeping mon to absorb boom, since the extra redundancy means you can re-establish advantage.
On its own, Haunter is very mediocre. Ghost/Poison is always a boom or bust typing, but Haunter's worse defenses relative to Gengar exacerbate this even more, making it very matchup/meta-dependent. Basically you're hoping for the opponent to have a non-EQ Lax, or one of the billion niche threats walled by Ghost types. Its regular attacks also lack punch given the lack of STAB, meaning Haunter struggles to handle Pokemon with Rest or recovery, unless it's hitting them super effectively or can wall them while building up Psychic spec drops (non-EQ RefLax being notable here). Explosion function also plays slightly differently, as it's usually too weak to ouright kill things, you're more likely using Explosion to set up revenge kills. This means you're overwhelmingly targeting slower pokemon, since booming first robs them of a turn, and they can be revenged by Tauros.
Overall I think Haunter isn't quite viable, but it's very close, and I'll probably use it again in the future. I'm lumping it in with Hitmonchan as being right on the borderline of whether it's worth using
https://pokepast.es/e439ff061f705e99
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2106906243-whfk8sraylyvkb79mlvgyile1yay5a7pw
Yay a good Haunter game. Having Haunter gave me a backup for both Egg's bad luck and an early Explosion with Gengar. From there it was able to able to apply some pressure via the threat of sleep and Psychic spec drops, but didn't make much progress until it eventually slept Lapras and exploded on Egg
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2253865665
Just Haunter shutting down RefLax, no big deal. It didn't do too much else, but countering Lax is super valuable. You could argue that the opponent didn't play Lax optimally and Blizzard is an odd choice w Reflect so idk
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790518
A bit of a lowlight for Haunter here, as it dies without achieving anything (albeit partially due to luck). I bring it in hoping to catch an Explosion, only to whiff badly (it was a questionable play on my part, not a failing of Haunter). I subsequently had a shot at booming on Egg, but fp'd instead. By the time I revealed Haunter, its matchup was bleak. Psychics threatened it, sleep was off the table, even boom was risky, meaning it was going to struggle to do anything even if it hadn't copped hax.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-801774
I feel like this replay is a good example of the advantages of triple sleep, as well as the inherent unreliability of relying on a 60% accurate move. Although my opponent was able to absorb my explosions with sleeping Pokemon, I wasn't too fazed since this ended up resulting in an Egg-Haunter matchup where I was likely to deny my opponent sleep. Unfortunately, Hypnosis missed, and I was unable to overcome the subsequent disadvantage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-805696
A good showing for Haunter as it found itself in a favourable matchup- I was able to blow up Gengar to deny sleep, and could still lean on Haunter to wall their monoLax. Unfortunately luck didn't fall my way late in the game and I wasn't able to break through Chansey
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2106906243-whfk8sraylyvkb79mlvgyile1yay5a7pw
Yay a good Haunter game. Having Haunter gave me a backup for both Egg's bad luck and an early Explosion with Gengar. From there it was able to able to apply some pressure via the threat of sleep and Psychic spec drops, but didn't make much progress until it eventually slept Lapras and exploded on Egg
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2253865665
Just Haunter shutting down RefLax, no big deal. It didn't do too much else, but countering Lax is super valuable. You could argue that the opponent didn't play Lax optimally and Blizzard is an odd choice w Reflect so idk
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-790518
A bit of a lowlight for Haunter here, as it dies without achieving anything (albeit partially due to luck). I bring it in hoping to catch an Explosion, only to whiff badly (it was a questionable play on my part, not a failing of Haunter). I subsequently had a shot at booming on Egg, but fp'd instead. By the time I revealed Haunter, its matchup was bleak. Psychics threatened it, sleep was off the table, even boom was risky, meaning it was going to struggle to do anything even if it hadn't copped hax.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-801774
I feel like this replay is a good example of the advantages of triple sleep, as well as the inherent unreliability of relying on a 60% accurate move. Although my opponent was able to absorb my explosions with sleeping Pokemon, I wasn't too fazed since this ended up resulting in an Egg-Haunter matchup where I was likely to deny my opponent sleep. Unfortunately, Hypnosis missed, and I was unable to overcome the subsequent disadvantage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-805696
A good showing for Haunter as it found itself in a favourable matchup- I was able to blow up Gengar to deny sleep, and could still lean on Haunter to wall their monoLax. Unfortunately luck didn't fall my way late in the game and I wasn't able to break through Chansey
Fearow is a bit better than Pidgeot and Farfetch'd, but really it still sucks and is heavily outclassed by Dodrio. I could honestly end this summary there, but I'll elaborate. Fearow's only realistic selling point over Dodrio is Mirror Move, but that's honestly a shitty selling point bc MM is a deeply flawed move due to failing if the opponent switches. Ironically, Pidgeot gets more value out of Mirror Move because it's less likely to force a switch. Anyway, MM's main applications are potentially copying missed sleep moves, or KOing a heavily weakened Rhydon by switching in on EQ, both of which are very niche, and again, are beaten by just switching. It also means that you're very frequently going to be using Fearow as sleep fodder
Its bulk and atrocious typing means it dies very easily, and a speed stat that isn't quite good enough doesn't help matters either. Even Drill Peck isn't that valuable since it struggles to switch in on Egg, the main target of that move (Psychic has a 55% chance to 2HKO without hax). Despite all these criticisms, it's still a threat capable of sweeping since it is a fast Normal type attacker after all. The trouble is, that's just a very crowded niche, and Fearow doesn't remotely measure up to the competition. In terms of viability, I have this grouped with Marowak and Venomoth, which is several steps from being the absolute worst, but still not close to being viable.
https://pokepast.es/5de0a46dd96cb79d
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-770151
Fearow's debut and it swept! Admittedly I benefited heavily from Amaranth forgetting about Mirror Move and then some luck in KOing their unparalysed Chansey, otherwise it was a losing position. I honestly didn't even consider the synergy between Fearow and IBLax until I got into the match
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2164060370
Tournament match vs a new player. Fearow filled the role of a normal sweeper, finishing off a heavily weakened Cloyster and closing the game out vs Chansey. It actually hits really hard with DE thanks to the higher base power. That said, its frailty and defensive vulnerability definitely limited my options late game, and its performance could've been replicated by many other physical attackers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-817527
Fearow swept, albeit in a heavily advantageous position. It's generally tough for Fearow to have more of an impact- in almost every scenario in which you'd bring in Fearow, Tauros is just a better choice. The only real exception is pressuring Egg.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2301783121
Not a great showing from Fearow, but it didn't contribute nothing. It starts the game off by acting as sleep fodder before eventually getting a wake. From there it's not in too bad of a position, as outspeeding Articuno and speed tying Zapdos are really valuable in this scenario- unfortunately I needed crits for it to make an impact. I think I could've maybe won this game, but I fumbled when I went Tauros on Amaranth's Zapdos. Oh well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-825103
Fearow showed up, clicked DP and died. Fortunately it landed a crit, which almost OHKO'd the opponent's Egg, but it's still underwhelming that it only clicked one move before dying. Could I have done more to bring it in safely? Maybe, but I don't really think Fearow comes in all that safely against Egg, which isn't ideal bc that's a matchup where it (and Dodrio) should be performing well
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-770151
Fearow's debut and it swept! Admittedly I benefited heavily from Amaranth forgetting about Mirror Move and then some luck in KOing their unparalysed Chansey, otherwise it was a losing position. I honestly didn't even consider the synergy between Fearow and IBLax until I got into the match
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2164060370
Tournament match vs a new player. Fearow filled the role of a normal sweeper, finishing off a heavily weakened Cloyster and closing the game out vs Chansey. It actually hits really hard with DE thanks to the higher base power. That said, its frailty and defensive vulnerability definitely limited my options late game, and its performance could've been replicated by many other physical attackers
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-817527
Fearow swept, albeit in a heavily advantageous position. It's generally tough for Fearow to have more of an impact- in almost every scenario in which you'd bring in Fearow, Tauros is just a better choice. The only real exception is pressuring Egg.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2301783121
Not a great showing from Fearow, but it didn't contribute nothing. It starts the game off by acting as sleep fodder before eventually getting a wake. From there it's not in too bad of a position, as outspeeding Articuno and speed tying Zapdos are really valuable in this scenario- unfortunately I needed crits for it to make an impact. I think I could've maybe won this game, but I fumbled when I went Tauros on Amaranth's Zapdos. Oh well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-825103
Fearow showed up, clicked DP and died. Fortunately it landed a crit, which almost OHKO'd the opponent's Egg, but it's still underwhelming that it only clicked one move before dying. Could I have done more to bring it in safely? Maybe, but I don't really think Fearow comes in all that safely against Egg, which isn't ideal bc that's a matchup where it (and Dodrio) should be performing well
Parasect is funny, because the whole time I used it, it almost always outperformed my expectations, but that's also because I consistently marvel at how terribly designed this pokemon is. Being tied for the slowest fully evolved pokemon in the game AND being 2HKO'd by everything is not a recipe for success, but sleep+SD is a strong enough combo to make it kinda worth using. It also has a bit of versatility, being a playable lead vs everything that's not Jynx, but I actually prefer it outside the lead position, where you can pick and choose when to play it. Picking on Lax is amazing, especially RestLax.
I think the best set is Spore/SD/HBeam, and then your choice of MDrain or Stun Spore. I like MD to deal substantial damage to Don, although it's actually still a loss for Parasect- they both deal 80% to each other, but Don is faster. Stun Spore in theory is more useful, especially in the lead position or if you think Zapdos might switch in, but in practice I'm not a fan of it. I think you end up trying to do too many things at once, and attacking with SD boosts tends to be more rewarding, especially if your teammates provide para support- Parasect actually doesn't mind opponent-s trying to block its sleep.
When it comes time to play it, the expected outcome is that it will sleep something and then heavily damage something else before going out in a blaze of glory. That may not be super impressive, but honestly effectively trading one pokemon for one and a half is solid. With all that said, Parasect can also be volatile at times- being slow and frail means the opponent can sometimes just outguess you, and you don't get to make too many mistakes before it dies. Overall, I have it in the same tier as Magneton and Poliwhirl- I'd continue using it, but it's very borderline.
https://pokepast.es/b3c8619cb4ec7ddf
https://pokepast.es/722c2334d1ffc937
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2143104755-jiuvxuqd106c4ismvlge8c27dpt8shzpw
Parasect played a small but valuable role in this match, exploiting a vulnerable Chansey to set up and break through the last of my opponent's resistances. If my opponent had gone to Lax, I would've been able to Spore instead. That said, it acted for all of 2 turns, as it was swiftly KO'd after denting Lax. I was also very lucky early game, which helped to set up the favourable endgame
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2189449143-zeke2jci0le2esqvhstwkmnt9j6lbr6pw
Match against a known strong player (despite their ladder rating). Was able to land sleep with Parasect, but its inability to deal with Gengar meant that it couldn't do too much else. Still found some value in luring a sleeping Gengar in for Lax and Tauros to threaten.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2194992343-vfogmuutmhmbi2z2hybvwf7bfgbmuizpw
Parasect didn't achieve a whole lot this match, but was a key part of my end game plan and a major reason why I believe I was winning even before I haxed their Zapdos. In this case, once Zapdos is removed via Tauros, Parasect can then either sleep Tauros or threaten to set up and attack Chansey, which couldn't retaliate effectively due to being SToss
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen1ou-2279521292
Honestly this is a decent showcase of the vision behind lead Parasect- landed early sleep, then was able to spread paralysis throughout my opponent's team before dying
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-768108
This was my 2nd tournament match with Sect, however it didn't really do much. I brought it in on Don, which correctly stayed in and used RSlide. This meant I took a ton of damage, which when coupled with Sect's atrocious speed and 4MSS meaning it can't fit Stun Spore, resulted in Parasect achieving nothing beyond sleep
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2144342736-j6ad0uyr9uaywkp3yec4wc0csef2hdzpw
I managed to sweep with Parasect! My opponent's team was heavily weakened, I also found some of their play questionable, but even so, I think that's pretty neat! In this case I gambled on their Starmie being Iceless, figuring that even if they had Blizz I could pressure with MD. Although this paid off, it's a bit questionable as MD still doesn't do a whole lot of damage lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2191521121-wvv11uw560xedqvm2284rwktx39ekm8pw
Parasect played a small but valuable role here- turns out Persian can't 2HKO Parasect with Slash, meaning it could come in and start threatening sleep. My opponent running Gengar meant that there wasn't really anything else that Parasect could do, but landing sleep on Gengar nonetheless proved valuable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-801773
This was the team's debut and it was a real mixed bag- things didn't really work out, but I think it was largely due to luck. I think T2 Stun Spore is optimal for lead Parasect since there are heaps of potential switches, and the opponent shouldn't be staying in due to the threat of SD, but it backfired here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-814785
Not my finest game, but it's an interesting showcase of lead Parasect. Asmi goes for Blizz T1 which doesn't crit, meaning I land the Spore. I also incorrectly guess that they might stay in to burn sleep turns and miss an opportunity to spread para. From that point on though, Parasect is heavily limited, being too weak to survive anything. This leads to me taking a risk and leaving Lax in on Egg which backfires. When I eventually bring it back in it achieves very little- I Stun to cover an array of potential options, then go for SD to fish for a FP, passing up a potential HB.
The point of this replay is that Parasect has a LOT of ambiguous lines, which creates potential for it to flop or heavily impact a match. Being in the lead spot only amplifies this, as you have much less info to inform your decision making.
Dropping SD reduces some of this ambiguity, but I think that's a terrible idea
https://pokepast.es/722c2334d1ffc937
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2143104755-jiuvxuqd106c4ismvlge8c27dpt8shzpw
Parasect played a small but valuable role in this match, exploiting a vulnerable Chansey to set up and break through the last of my opponent's resistances. If my opponent had gone to Lax, I would've been able to Spore instead. That said, it acted for all of 2 turns, as it was swiftly KO'd after denting Lax. I was also very lucky early game, which helped to set up the favourable endgame
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2189449143-zeke2jci0le2esqvhstwkmnt9j6lbr6pw
Match against a known strong player (despite their ladder rating). Was able to land sleep with Parasect, but its inability to deal with Gengar meant that it couldn't do too much else. Still found some value in luring a sleeping Gengar in for Lax and Tauros to threaten.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2194992343-vfogmuutmhmbi2z2hybvwf7bfgbmuizpw
Parasect didn't achieve a whole lot this match, but was a key part of my end game plan and a major reason why I believe I was winning even before I haxed their Zapdos. In this case, once Zapdos is removed via Tauros, Parasect can then either sleep Tauros or threaten to set up and attack Chansey, which couldn't retaliate effectively due to being SToss
https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-gen1ou-2279521292
Honestly this is a decent showcase of the vision behind lead Parasect- landed early sleep, then was able to spread paralysis throughout my opponent's team before dying
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-768108
This was my 2nd tournament match with Sect, however it didn't really do much. I brought it in on Don, which correctly stayed in and used RSlide. This meant I took a ton of damage, which when coupled with Sect's atrocious speed and 4MSS meaning it can't fit Stun Spore, resulted in Parasect achieving nothing beyond sleep
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2144342736-j6ad0uyr9uaywkp3yec4wc0csef2hdzpw
I managed to sweep with Parasect! My opponent's team was heavily weakened, I also found some of their play questionable, but even so, I think that's pretty neat! In this case I gambled on their Starmie being Iceless, figuring that even if they had Blizz I could pressure with MD. Although this paid off, it's a bit questionable as MD still doesn't do a whole lot of damage lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2191521121-wvv11uw560xedqvm2284rwktx39ekm8pw
Parasect played a small but valuable role here- turns out Persian can't 2HKO Parasect with Slash, meaning it could come in and start threatening sleep. My opponent running Gengar meant that there wasn't really anything else that Parasect could do, but landing sleep on Gengar nonetheless proved valuable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-801773
This was the team's debut and it was a real mixed bag- things didn't really work out, but I think it was largely due to luck. I think T2 Stun Spore is optimal for lead Parasect since there are heaps of potential switches, and the opponent shouldn't be staying in due to the threat of SD, but it backfired here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-814785
Not my finest game, but it's an interesting showcase of lead Parasect. Asmi goes for Blizz T1 which doesn't crit, meaning I land the Spore. I also incorrectly guess that they might stay in to burn sleep turns and miss an opportunity to spread para. From that point on though, Parasect is heavily limited, being too weak to survive anything. This leads to me taking a risk and leaving Lax in on Egg which backfires. When I eventually bring it back in it achieves very little- I Stun to cover an array of potential options, then go for SD to fish for a FP, passing up a potential HB.
The point of this replay is that Parasect has a LOT of ambiguous lines, which creates potential for it to flop or heavily impact a match. Being in the lead spot only amplifies this, as you have much less info to inform your decision making.
Dropping SD reduces some of this ambiguity, but I think that's a terrible idea
Hooo boy, Seadra is absolute ass. I knew before I started building around it that it's heavily outclassed, as although it's technically the best Agility Water type, Articuno is very similar and FAR better, not to mention Starmie is already faster than most things. I wish I could say I found some special niche for it, but there really isn't. Hydro Pump/Surf/Blizz/Agility is really its best set- I did explore Smokescreen, but the results weren't good. The only thing I can think of is that if you want an Agility sweeper and badly need coverage against Fire types in the same slot, then Seadra might be considered. But you have to actively be trying to make a bad team for that to be a valid niche.
Although Seadra's obviously outclassed it's also woefully ineffective. Offensively it's completely helpless against both Starmie and Chansey, which are ofc everywhere, and are 2 of the pokemon with the best longevity in the game. It also doesn't support the team in any way other than being an average special attacker. On the defensive end, it's absolutely useless. Its bulk is ok for an offensive threat (Tauros needs a crit to 2HKO), but it's nowhere near good enough for it to try to switch into neutral attacks, while its most valuable resistance (Ice) does nothing for it bc it can't threaten anything that uses Ice attacks. There are also other flaws, like its speed not quite being good enough and being forced to depend on HPump too much.
It's at least a potent enough attacker to threaten ReflectLax, and it doesn't mind teams that have pokemon it threatens super effectively (Don lol). If you're using it early game, expect it to achieve literally nothing. If you're using it as a sweeper it has greater potential, but more often than not you'll either lose or win without revealing it. I have Seadra in the same level as Butterfree and Beedrill.
https://pokepast.es/738e7129285edcbd
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2117547510-l4ua4m66r7br1awvwbcn1jlykzvjmclpw?p2
A respectable opponent. Seadra had a fairly favourable matchup in this match, as it does well against Don/Egg. Its performance was overall average- it's a potent enough attacker to threaten ReflectLax and holds its own against other physical attackers, but it totally drops pressure against Chansey and Starmie
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2288967069-q7ohze6iq9zomblvgoht87x0cwke3gwpw
Seadra sweep, let's gooooooo. Having said that, I think this doesn't actually reflect that well on Seadra. I needed luck to go my way in order to beat Zam, and the opposing team was heavily weakened- many other pokemon could've performed adequately here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2325368878-yanceo97gpihfqohxe8cq1o48ikvma2pw
Played Seadra midgame to pressure my opponent's RestLax after whiffing on my Egg's boom. It did the job adequately and even ended up critting Lax to death, but as the game went on my opponent picked up on the fact that I was aggressively predicting the Chansey switchin and started predicting my doubles appropriately
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2191516374-l1jb97a0vw907kdm29ljbf5ywkkrggnpw
Seadra struggled to accomplish much, as I never managed to remove its walls for it to sweep. I was able to leverage it as a fast Blizzard threat, threatening Bel with enough damage to put it into revenge killing range. Eventually even that threat lost its teeth, as it was chipped low enough to where my opponent could Wrap out to Tauros for the KO, at which point Seadra became very expendable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-818933
Dreadful showing from Seadra here- it ran straight into Chansey and Starmie and failed to accomplish anything. What's notable here is that I was trialling Smokescreen, but despite this being the exact scenario I had in mind for the move, I didn't end up using it. Unclear if that's just me not executing the gameplan, or if I'm simply overestimating the case for Smokescreen
Ladder---------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2117547510-l4ua4m66r7br1awvwbcn1jlykzvjmclpw?p2
A respectable opponent. Seadra had a fairly favourable matchup in this match, as it does well against Don/Egg. Its performance was overall average- it's a potent enough attacker to threaten ReflectLax and holds its own against other physical attackers, but it totally drops pressure against Chansey and Starmie
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2288967069-q7ohze6iq9zomblvgoht87x0cwke3gwpw
Seadra sweep, let's gooooooo. Having said that, I think this doesn't actually reflect that well on Seadra. I needed luck to go my way in order to beat Zam, and the opposing team was heavily weakened- many other pokemon could've performed adequately here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2325368878-yanceo97gpihfqohxe8cq1o48ikvma2pw
Played Seadra midgame to pressure my opponent's RestLax after whiffing on my Egg's boom. It did the job adequately and even ended up critting Lax to death, but as the game went on my opponent picked up on the fact that I was aggressively predicting the Chansey switchin and started predicting my doubles appropriately
Tour-----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2191516374-l1jb97a0vw907kdm29ljbf5ywkkrggnpw
Seadra struggled to accomplish much, as I never managed to remove its walls for it to sweep. I was able to leverage it as a fast Blizzard threat, threatening Bel with enough damage to put it into revenge killing range. Eventually even that threat lost its teeth, as it was chipped low enough to where my opponent could Wrap out to Tauros for the KO, at which point Seadra became very expendable
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-818933
Dreadful showing from Seadra here- it ran straight into Chansey and Starmie and failed to accomplish anything. What's notable here is that I was trialling Smokescreen, but despite this being the exact scenario I had in mind for the move, I didn't end up using it. Unclear if that's just me not executing the gameplan, or if I'm simply overestimating the case for Smokescreen
Anyway, if you're curious, here is my personal VR for the trashmons that I've tested
Usable--------
Kadabra
Parasect, Poliwhirl, Magneton
Almost-------
Hitmonchan, Haunter
Bad-------
Fearow, Venomoth, Marowak
Farfetch'd, Pidgeot
Never------
Beedrill, Seadra, Butterfree
Golbat, Seaking
Ditto-------
Ditto