OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

Hey guys. When you play porygon with Hyper Beam, sharpen and recover, do you prefer to have reflect or thunder wave in the 4th slot? Or possibly something else?
 
I have an update for this ladder tier list—but it's not an "update" in the sense that I'm changing any of my stated opinions or tier placements. I'm actually just here to reaffirm that everything I posted here is still 100% accurate for ladder play. In fact, the more I learn about the game, the more I discover how right I was about literally everything from the start. Things aren't supposed to work that way, but they just sort of did. I don't like patting myself on the back, but it would be remiss not to acknowledge the immaculate precision of this tier list. You know how Newton figured out the laws of gravity, and we still use them, untouched, 400 years later? That's gonna be this tier list for RBY laddering. If you want ladder success, take this tier list to heart. Seriously.

(That said, bear in mind that this tier list was conceived by applying competitive/high level tournament strategy to ladder, as opposed to typical ladder strategy. If you're new to laddering, or don't take laddering all that seriously, this tier list may not seem very intuitive—regardless, this is as about as definitive as you can get.)
2024 update: Still no changes.
The tier list I created back in 2022 is still perfectly accurate.
 
Has anyone else ever tried Solar Beam on Exeggutor? I gave it a shot and it's quite decent.

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Eggy greatly threatens Chansey, Starmie is a common switch in as it absorbs sleep well and can live explosion and recover later. With a predictive Solar Beam on the switch you can force them back into Chansey to keep threatening it, as even other neutral targets like Snorlax are hit quite hard. It does let Zapdos in for free however, so Rhydon or Jolteon are great teammates. Alakazam and opposing Exeggutor can take Solar Beam decently well so you could run Double-Edge or Hyper Beam over Psychic to pressure them, but it's not worth the worse Gengar matchup imo.

Overall you don't click it that often but it can be effective.
 
This has re-inforced to me that Japanese Blizzard is one of the most deranged decisions that has ever been made in all of human history.

We have 4 attacks that are the strongest unboosted special attacks in the game, Exeggutor's Solar Beam, Moltres' Fire Blast, Zapdos' Thunder and Articuno's Blizzard.

Solar Beam gets 100% accuracy and a charge turn
Fire Blast gets a 30% to burn and and 85% accuracy
Thunder gets a lowly 10% to paralyse and 70%??!!! accuracy
Blizzard gets a 30% to delete your opponent and 90% accuracy

We need a meta where Thunder gets 30% para chance and 90% accuracy, justice4Thunder
 
2024 update: Still no changes.
The tier list I created back in 2022 is still perfectly accurate.
Lol I do appreciate you mentioning how powerful para chancey is. I’m at the point where I’ll lead Tauros just to challenge slp and bait out para. I never feel behind when I’ve got para chan… i mean when you catch para with bolt beam vs a team with chancey and starmie… gg
 
I’ve been playing with a mono normal type team and I wanted to shout out clefabe (sing, thunder wave, mega kick, blizzard). Being able to come in on body slam with para immunity creates a line I’ve been taking advantage of - lead Tauros to bait para, if para threat switch to chancey, if para is caught throw Ice beam if not switch to clefable. Most people bring in eggs or lax when you show Chan early game and the clefable switch covers both with sing. Yeah sings accuracy is 55% but you don’t have to win a speed tie or worry about body slam para on switch in (hence the stay in ice beam when paralyzed), and when you get it you win. I mean not really but it’s good… janky one might say.

Mega kick is also sick. Two shot on alakazam that nobody expects and if their chancey has taken any chip damage it also gets hit by the one two ko. Does it miss sometimes yeah but it also crits sometimes which is a threat against almost everything.

Honorable mention - kangaskhan counter to catch hyper beam from Tauros and rko or lax to set up a ko with body slam

Anyways play mono normal its way more enjoyable than mono physic imo

Tauros-standard
Chancey-bolt beam
Lax-fiss/wall breaker
Clefable-mvp
Kang-wall breaker/slp sack
Persain-forcing kos/crit tbolt ftw
 
Been trying to play through every fully evolved mon that isn't entirely outclassed by something else, or too frail to use (with a couple of exceptions). A few times (especially with weak sleeper mons for example Parasect) I've tried leading with ice queen freeze Chansey but it rarely seems to achieve its objective (Usually dies to the crit/para combo, is also often frozen itself) ? So I'm wondering like, if you wanted your lead to get a freeze on the opponent who would you choose ?

Also to contribute to this topic, I am also the janker that occasionally uses sand attack jolteon as a lead, which is basically kinesis zam but you can also threaten chansey (common switch-in) with double kick crit pressure.

Since I used it as an example - the parasect plan is basically lead gets a freeze or faints then immediately switch in parasect. Spore is guaranteed sleep, often your opponent will switch to whatever they prefer getting slept. Free parasect turn use substitute. When they switch something else in use Stun Spore. Finally spam slash until you faint.
 
So I'm wondering like, if you wanted your lead to get a freeze on the opponent who would you choose ?
Ice Beam Starmie's a good one. For freeze purposes, Blizzard has half the PP and is less accurate. The drop in power is more acceptable to deal with here if you intend for Starmie to be sacked to sleep. Between accuracy, PP, bulk, and speed, this would be the best freeze lead option IMO.

And, whether Jynx has Blizzard or Ice Beam...it's actually not that great of a freezer. Terrible bulk, combined with frequently being paralyzed, give it not that many opportunities to fish. Paralyzing lead Starmie is (for most teams, not all, but most) usually not ideal since the opponent is giving you a terrific sleep blocker. As such, you can usually spam Ice Beam on something like Chansey until it sings you to sleep.
 
Giving my boy Raticate some love.

I’ve played Dodrio and Tauros leads with intent in the past and while I enjoy this opening approach they both have legitimate issues in the lead position that Raticate doesn’t seem to care about.
Dodrio is not good imo. Walled by rhydon, and two shot by everything faster than it, it often just switches out and throws a hyper beam late game. It’s strength is offering the best odds against jynx w/ HB but most people are aware of that threat making it punishable. Body slam then becomes the preferred option but the odds are underwhelming often just setting up an rko for Tauros or snorlax w/para.
Tauros has better odds when using Body slam because blizzard is not a one shot meaning lovely kiss should be selected, But if the jyxn has counter you may lose your Tauros T1 which is difficult to come back from to say the least.
Being able to challenge gengar seems like a plus but most competent people will Just play around earthquake. I would say it’s biggest strength is actually baiting twave for chancey

Enter Double edge Raticate
double edge gives you a crit 1 shot vs jynx meaning jynx has to switch, lovely kiss, or counter and by way of not being an indispensable Tauros and having super fang to set up kos on anything slower like eggs any outcome is playable.
the gengar matchup is bad but super fang hits ghosts so if they opt for tbolt/psychic or Hypnosis misses you can set up an rko, and while raticate most likely will not be able to wake up holding slp is always an option.
Not as well as Tauros but still significant is baiting out twave from Starmie and Alakazam. I would recommend switching out vs Starmie, but against Alakazam I’d say it’s your call. Double edge also crit kos Alakazam and with body slam you may be able to sneak in a para if they opt for psychic over twave

I’ve been running
Double-edge/super fang/body slam/quick attack

And I know it looks like a trash set but those are the moves I have found most useful, let other Pokémon with actual attack stats use hyper beam, and you may change your mind on bubble beam as well after something like Starmie switches into it.

Anyways try out a Raticate lead, and bully some jynxs. I’m going to try building w/ Persian next and I’m open to suggestions. I like pairing it with golem and kind of going all in on offense
 
Edit: moved this from the OU thread to this thread.

I have been playing a cheesy poison core for a week in ladder, it has been fun and I think there is some untapped potential in this strat. I even saw a few of my opponents trying it out. Using Toxic Zapdos with this exact Snorlax set to setup a Snorlax sweep is a very old ladder combo, and this is my take on that strat.

There is IMO a highly synergistic 4 pokemon core with the following sets:
:chansey:
-Toxic
-Stoss
-Reflect
-Softboiled

:zapdos:
-Toxic
-Thunderbolt
-Drill peck
-Flex

:dragonite:
-Agility
-Wrap
-Flex
-Flex

:snorlax:
-Thunderbolt
-Amnesia
-Reflect/Harden
-Rest

Amnesia+Reflect+Rest Snorlax doesn't deal nearly as much damage as something like Slowbro, because of lack of stab and not hitting 999 special. But Snorlax is much harder to break and much safer to setup. Tbolt has the highest PP which is very important for the set due to the lack of damage, and it doesn't get PP stalled as hard by pokemon like Starmie/Slowbro/Alakazam/Ice types compared to running Surf, Ice beam or Psychic, leaving Snorlax more attacking PP to work with.

The main weaknesses of this Snorlax set are Rhydon being immune to the damage, and more importantly even without Rhydon the attacking PP can just be stalled out by Chansey and friends. Which is why it loves poison support. In early game, the goal is to spread as much poison as possible.

Chansey is the center-piece of the team, with Toxic and Reflect it can spread poison and break holes to the opposing team in early game. It hard wins vs opposing Chansey and Starmie with the poison damage, and it has reflect for any physical attackers. If it can be switched in on an incoming Twave, the opposing Chansey can't freeze and can never stay in vs it or it dies to poison. But on the other hand if this Chansey does get frozen by the opposing Chansey, it means that it got to poison the opposing Chansey and activate the freeze clause, protecting Snorlax from getting frozen later.

Zapdos is another important early game support pokemon in the team, it's the best pokemon at poisoning Rhydon. And even if the opponent doesn't have a Rhydon or they are intentionally saving their Rhydon for your Snorlax, then that just means that there is an unanswered Zapdos breaking holes with Thunderbolts and Drill pecks, which can also conserve Tbolt PP for Snorlax later.

Dragonite is another pokemon that enables Snorlax and it can occassionally steal games as well. Dragonite obviously loves poison support because poison greatly increases Wrap damage. Dragonite can punish a resting Snorlax or a resting/EQ:ing Rhydon by threatening Agility+Wrap. And Dragonite doesn't need to sweep at all, just grinding down the HP bars can greatly conserve the Tbolt PP of Snorlax. On the other hand, if Snorlax is brought in early, it can use all its Tbolt PP to soften the team for a Dragonite sweep.

For the other two pokemon, obviously something that can lead is needed and one of them has to be the sleeper of the team. I think these slots are quite flexible, as long as they aren't anything that uses TWave or BSlam. Explosions and more toxic spreaders are nice. It's important to not paralyze the opponents Starmie, Chansey or Rhydon, that would protect them from poison. Paralyzed Starmie & Chansey can switch in vs this teams Chansey and kill it or stall its PP, while paralyzed Chansey & Rhydon can ruin the Snorlax sweep.

Some notes about playing vs :rhydon: without Rest:
If it gets poisoned it dies to it and can't wall Snorlax at all. If the opponent knows about the Snorlax set beforehand, they might save Rhydon till the very end fearing the poison. Which can still be ok - Snorlax can PP stall it in late game 1v1 or 1v2 type of situations, fishing for Tbolts when Rhydon swaps, and Zapdos+Chansey appreciates the fact that they aren't threatened by Rhydon in early game.

:rhydon: with Rest:
This is a bigger counter to the strat. Rest Rhydon can be brought in early, get poisoned and rest the poison away later. Resting Rhydon can even be a pain for the Chansey set. At least Dragonite is a big counter to a resting Rhydon and could steal the game.
 
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I have been playing a cheesy poison core for a week in ladder, it has been fun and I think there is some untapped potential in this strat. I even saw a few of my opponents trying it out. Using Toxic Zapdos with this exact Snorlax set to setup a Snorlax sweep is a very old ladder combo, and this is my take on that strat.
Your team is annoying to deal with and makes my life difficult.

Anyways I shitmon on ladder. Im currently trying to atleast get 1450 with kingler.
I know kingler isnt a "Shitmon" in the usual sense of there is literally no upside to using them, but rather in the sense that its just not good.
https://pokepast.es/d2b83bc6349676b0
I dont remember enough about my mon/move choices atp to explain.
 
2024 update: Still no changes.
The tier list I created back in 2022 is still perfectly accurate.
Imagine my complete lack of surprise that Laxless teams have proven to be perfectly functional in both ladder and RBY Cup this year. No—the only surprising thing is how long it took you fucking people to realize it when I've been saying this shit (with hard evidence and perfectly reasonable argumentation) since 2022. To all those who mocked or doubted me for this belief, I await your apologies! :)

No changes to my ladder tier list, by the way. It's still perfect.
 
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Imagine my complete lack of surprise that Laxless teams have proven to be perfectly functional in both ladder and RBY Cup this year. No—the only surprising thing is how long it took you fucking people to realize it when I've been saying this shit (with hard evidence and perfectly reasonable argumentation) since 2022. To all those who mocked or doubted me for this belief, I await your apologies! :)

No changes to my ladder tier list, by the way. It's still perfect.
Eeveeto's vr shouldnt be taken as anything more than an opinion. (Not trying to get into my opinions on them too much so ill stop there.)
Also your ladder tier list seems more like a preference list. Chanseyless teams ladder fine but you seem to think of chansey as the mon that determines whether or not you lose depending on its alive status, also a single replay that doesnt work anymore and not even sharing the team is not "Hard evidence"
Weve known laxless has been doable for a while. But as this is a competitive game, why would you put yourself at a HEAVY disadvantage in not having a lax.

Had a bit more to say but im trying to keep this respectful to avoid a forum argument over something that doesn't matter esp since im not much better than i assume you are.
 
Weve known laxless has been doable for a while.
Considering the entire reason this "Ladder Jank" thread even exists is because I dared to post "Snorlax is the least necessary of the big 3" in the VR thread, which made the regulars clutch their pearls in shock and terror? No, I do not think you have known that "for a while," or at least not longer than I have. I'm gonna go ahead and declare myself to be the first person to express the idea with confidence.
 
We havent known snorlax is the least necessary because it isnt. That title goes to chansey.
Eeveeto would disagree with you + Chansey is the most necessary. She is the ultimate special wall and status absorber. Her role is indispensable.
Tauros is also indispensable, but if indispensability can be expressed in degrees, Chansey is more indispensable.
Snorlax is not indispensable.
 
Eeveeto would disagree with you + Chansey is the most necessary. She is the ultimate special wall and status absorber. Her role is indispensable.
Tauros is also indispensable, but if indispensability can be expressed in degrees, Chansey is more indispensable.
Snorlax is not indispensable.

I do disagree with him, but I am not exactly a top RBY player (though this year I was close from winning RBY Cup and got to Semis of the RBY Circuit). Most of those value Snorlax higher. The actual winner of RBY Cup of this year, Excal, actually has Chansey 4th and Exeggutor 3rd, also mentioning in fact that Egg could end up 2nd instead of Lax (this is something I can get behind to, my own VR had Egg 4th but I almost put it 3rd instead of Lax).
 
The actual winner of RBY Cup of this year, Excal, actually has Chansey 4th and Exeggutor 3rd, also mentioning in fact that Egg could end up 2nd instead of Lax (this is something I can get behind to, my own VR had Egg 4th but I almost put it 3rd instead of Lax).
I just don't understand how anyone could rank Chansey this low when spreading status is pretty much THE win condition of the meta, and Chansey is THE #1 status absorber in the game. Going without Chansey puts your whole team in danger of status, since nothing else can tolerate getting paralyzed quite like Chansey. Sure, Rest is a move, but it's also a move that can lose you a lot of tempo. Softboiled loses you a lot less tempo.

Maybe it comes down to preference in playstyle, but I just don't get why Chansey being dispensable seems to be such a popular meme right now.
 
I just don't understand how anyone could rank Chansey this low when spreading status is pretty much THE win condition of the meta, and Chansey is THE #1 status absorber in the game. Going without Chansey puts your whole team in danger of status, since nothing else can tolerate getting paralyzed quite like Chansey. Sure, Rest is a move, but it's also a move that can lose you a lot of tempo. Softboiled loses you a lot less tempo.

Maybe it comes down to preference in playstyle, but I just don't get why Chansey being dispensable seems to be such a popular meme right now.

Paralyzed Chansey is not optimal vs physically based teams. Snorlax and Rhydon abuse paralyzed Chansey hard (thats for teammates are for, though).

It also doesn,t fit in certain structures, for example Boom offense https://pokepast.es/0f2bc0eb06f579c6 ( you can replace Electrode for Fraudos or Jolteon on this team, but Chansey just doesn,t fit).
 
I thought you were just memeing, but Laxless teams were a thing for over a decade. i remember when I started playing back then, that several teams opted to play with Gar + Egg + a faster attacker and would go Laxless. Not to mention teams like that JynxMie + CloyDon team that took off in like 2018 that didn’t run Lax. From my own team collection Water + GolDon + Electric teams I made wouldn’t run Lax and I’d top ladder with them occasionally over the years. And then there’s teams that run Porygon or Cloy instead of Lax to capitalize on their unique benefits.

If you want some more examples. here’s a team dump from Ortheore from back in 2016, several teams are Laxless and/or Chanseyless.
Link
Really appreciated this list back in the day and I still do now. Some of those teams are still fun to use.
 
I thought you were just memeing, but Laxless teams were a thing for over a decade. i remember when I started playing back then, that several teams opted to play with Gar + Egg + a faster attacker and would go Laxless. Not to mention teams like that JynxMie + CloyDon team that took off in like 2018 that didn’t run Lax. From my own team collection Water + GolDon + Electric teams I made wouldn’t run Lax and I’d top ladder with them occasionally over the years. And then there’s teams that run Porygon or Cloy instead of Lax to capitalize on their unique benefits.

If you want some more examples. here’s a team dump from Ortheore from back in 2016, several teams are Laxless and/or Chanseyless.
Link
Really appreciated this list back in the day and I still do now. Some of those teams are still fun to use.
Well, tell that to Amaranth and everyone who raked me over the fucking coals for DARING to suggest that you could build a tournament-winningly good team without Snorlax. In fact, don't just tell them that—harass them with it for eternity, because that is what they deserve.
 
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