Lower Tiers RBY PU Hub

1739589371340.png

This might just be a skill issue thing, but I’m not personally a huge fan of the kind of games Rapidash creates? The only thing that even speed ties it can’t really do anything to it unless it risks a huge coin flip AND it has been partially dealt with in advance, this really kinda sucks when you combine it with the fact that it has Fire Spin, so it can freely switch out of anything that checks it. Except sometimes it CAN’T, because Fire Spin is only 75% accurate? And its Fire Blast don’t really have that great of accuracy either, so sometimes the centerpiece of most every team just kinda dies? Combine the pivot thing with Body Slam paralysis and you also get mirrors that really don’t feel great.

Not trying to like call for a ban where it isn’t needed or anything, and I’ve generally only played low ladder games, so maybe I’m missing important context? I’m not sure.
 
We are doing a survey on the state of PU. This survey will help identify potential tiering action for the tier, if any.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfvAO2oC5ijrq1-cseAdrkeOhRwN2GL8hAeEHz8Bkaz67NT1w/viewform

Going to tag a bunch of people here who have been active in discussions or have had recent tournament runs:
AM NotVeryCake DiannieRatson Sabelette Maris Bonibell acluh1 Volk nebi yimb GirlsSeeGhosts gastlies hammer798 TG2513 ButtGallon Toxin Boost castforming Amaranth Theycallmephil

Thanks to gastlies because I copied her survey.
 
Although I hate Partial Trapping in lower tiers as a whole and Porygon mirrors and its twave are super lame, I probably would support no tiering action of any kind. I did put stuff like Porygon and accuracy lowering moves higher in “broken” but I have enjoyed the current version of PU in both PUBD and playing in the ROA spotlight tour. It’s my favorite rby lower tier currently and the more centralizing stuff I believe are manageable.
 
I will be the first to say i really enjoy the meta as it is.
However as I was tagged by bestie wanted is am obligated to keep discussion going and drop my opinions

:golduck:
I am very against taking any action against golduck. Golduck to me kinda exists in its own universe, often trading with itself and kinda making you think twice about how you use it until the opps is gone. To me atleast I think this is healthy and the tier would be worse off without its presence.

:Rapidash:
Tbh i understand that this being the fastest mon in the tier can seem to put strain on things when paired with partial trapping. However I think this pokemon has more than enough checks to make it fine in my eyes, the most irritating part of dealing with it imo is fire blast burn, which is far from exclusive to it, and was even *more* prevalent previously when :Arcanine: was in the tier.
While I am against action on this, taking action on fire spin specifically (not PT as a whole) is smth i can get behind.

:porygon:
When i first played this new meta, I immediately thought this felt like too much, but as we grow to understand the meta more i can't imagine it without it.
Pory is fine to me now

:magmar: :gastly: :golbat: [confused ray]
The thing on this slate i truly just want gone. Magmar has a true and honest role as a lead and generally solid secondary fire type in this new meta, meaning my old gripe that removing this move would take away its old small niche. So yea, I heavily support doing something about confuse ray for the sake of competitive-ness and fairness of play if nothing else.

:pidgeot: :scyther: and [accuracy lowering moves]
I don't feel very strongly about these options at all, i think they're generally fine lol

:abra:
I do kinda hate this guy. It feels like if anything is truly too much it's this guy
But as it stands I wouldn't vote ban.
Ill keep my eye on the fella.

I've said my peace.
 
Fire Spin on Rapidash is pretty stupid. It’s the fastest mon in the tier clicking 70% accurate moves so it naturally makes games more luck-based. Has a lot in common with NU Moltres imo. I don’t care whether we ban Rapidash, Fire Spin, or Partial Trapping, just get this out of the tier.

If we have to ban Rapidash due to tiering policy generally requiring 2 broken users to ban a mechanic I don’t see an issue with this. Magmar still exists as a fast fire that can be used instead and its lack of fire spin + being speed crept by Prineape and Scyther makes it much easier to handle.
 
Vigs are out of PUBD, meaning I'm making a personal VR post.
Ill cut to the chase and show off the vr for those who don't feel like reading my yapping.
1000111844.png

Immediately I'm sure a few opinions stick out, so let's get to those.

S TIER

:rapidash: Rapidash
Initially I had this pokemon as low as 3 but, I think the way the tier revolves around it aswell as it's incredible consistency make it my #1. That being said i do think this pokemon is droppable, but you need a very good reason to do so.

:golduck: Golduck
I'm sure we were all terrified of this pokemons amnesia sets, but as it turns out it's kinda hard to set those up in this environment. That doesn't stop golduck from being absolutely elite tho, as it's great stats and tier defining speed tier make a name for it. I think this pokemon is somewhat more naturally checked than rapidash but, harder to drop. These 2 are very close and either of these as #1 would make sense to me.

A TIER

:seaking: Seaking
I may be glazing but, i think this is the best and most reliable win condition in the tier, this mon is relishing in way less staryu compared to previous metas, aswell as another big obstacle :golduck: often checking itself or otherwise being targeted early on. Not much new about it, runs mostly the same stuff.

:porygon: Porygon
I don't think it's surprising that one of the tiers only true walls, and best para spreader ended up this high. Porygon is VERY good, it's psychics output very reliable damage and most teams need a plan for getting past this mon. :porygon:

:abra: Abra
Commanding possibly the single most threatening attack in the tier, this pokemon hits HARD and it does so FAST
The one downside? It's incredibly frail physically and most things faster than it, back hyper beam partially for it.
That being said with a good pilot, pr behind a substitute. This pokemon can take over games easily.

:magmar: Magmar
After living in the shadow of both :Arcanine: and :rapidash: its now stepped out as, very possibly the best and most consistent lead in the meta. In the back it's still quite fast and powerful but, I think it's most notable for its lead stuff.
This is a huge glow up for it but it's usage will back me up.

:pidgeot: Pidgeot
This was the A tier I was most unsure about putting up here, i think it's pretty solidly the worst mon in the A tier. However, this pokemon is very strong, although it takes effort to get maximum value since it has a few very bad matchups such as :gastly: and :graveler: although certain sets can annoy these mons, they typically do not check them unless predicting well.

B TIER

:graveler: Graveler
Speak of the devil..ik this placement is gonna raise eyebrows but..Just hear me out. Resisting normal and fire right now is more important than ever. Being able to blank mons like :pidgeot: and :Scyther: so easily is huge, this pokemon is also incredibly hard to switch in on and while an underexplored option, does still possess access to explosion. One of the scariest and most influential moves in rby.

:gastly: Gastly
I'm not here to rant about this pokemon being broken this time. But I do wanna talk about what it has going for it and why I think it's a great choice on teams. First off, ghost typing is pretty damn useful here, as inorder to actually threaten it :pidgeot: has to run sky attack(wing attack does next to nothing to gastly) it's poison type is unsurprisingly a huge detriment and what keeps it out of the higher tiers tho, as powerful moves like :nidoking: earthquake and :abra: psychic threaten it greatly. It's tied for the fastest sleeper in the tier, albeit less accurate than venusaur it typically has more to offer in the mid-late game aswell as a significantly better leads matchup into magmar. I think gastly needs more exploring but this placement feels right for the only ghost below UU.

:nidoking: Nidoking
Nidoking being down here is often described as "funny" but its role in PU is no joke. Nidoking is imo the worse of PUs 2 main ground types, however this pokemon boasts impressive speed and great power. Making it somewhat difficult to reliably check. Unlike nidoqueen this pokemon isn't easily revenged by pokemon like gastly and staryu when chipped. I personally believe the best way to take advantage of nidokings talents is to run a sub 3 asks variant. But many sets work.

:staryu: Staryu
A relic of the old metas top tier, staryu has stuck around in impressive fashion. Showing itself off as a consistent check to the tiers water types, aswell as another fast effective para spreader. This pokemon has more freedom to run blizzard these days meaning it's poor matchup into grass types can be completely flipped if significantly chipped.

:primeape: Primeape
I was this pokemons biggest hater when the shifts first dropped, however I've come around. I think primeape is obviously carried by its impressive speed tier though. Using its great speed and high attack to revenge frailer pokemon with swift blows, aswell as trading down vs many threats with seismic toss. This pokemon is generally very consistent and easy to build with. (Quite funny it's main sets loses to graveler tho)

:Venusaur: Venusaur
Venusaur possess the fastest accurate sleep in the tier, naturally making it a good lead. But that's just it, Venusaur kinda struggles to do things after it gets it's sleep off since it's not too hard to switch into and it lacks stun spore which is a key option of most grass types in rby. I truly don't believe a good team with Venusaur in back works, but if your team can properly take advantage of its sleep, this pokemon can be devastating in the lead slot.

C TIER

:Scyther: Scyther
"Why is Scyther so low" "this list sucks"
Okay you gotta understand, Scyther is a potent late game cleaner/wincon yes. But this pokemon is very easy to account for/stop and i think alot of teams are just ready for it. However if you play loosely with your checks to this mon, don't be shocked when you get run over by it. Scyther is a threat and it's here to stay, but it's fairly matchup dependent in my opinion and something I just outright wouldn't bring vs some people.

:wigglytuff: Wigglytuff
I absolutely adore wigglytuff so I'm happy to say it's pretty confidently found it's footing in the tier, as a dual status pokemon with solid bulk and basically no weaknesses. Truly not much to say about this pokemon it's just, the definition of average.

:exeggcute: Exeggcute
The pile of eggs is actually....not shit? Somehow this mon actually feels pretty okay decent, with good moves and an excellent typing it gets by checking a few things, and spamming status moves constantly.

:sandslash: Sandslash
I can't recall this popping up on a big stage yet in this meta, however it's the 3rd ground type with a role in PU, thing time focusing more on raw offensive pressure than checking specific things. Swords dance enables some pretty insane damage and earthquake only has 1 real resist in exeggcute, while pidgeot is immune it's threatened heavily by +2 rock slide. This mon needs more exploring but I'm confident in this spot.

:vileplume: Vileplume
"What if Venusaur traded it's reliable stab and slightly better speed for access to stun spore" asked a very limited group of people, but here is their answer, vileplume. Imo this pokemon suffers even more than venusaur from not resisting ground, but the utility of having a second status move after clicking sleep powder is very alluring. Idk if this mon will stay up here for me but as of now, it is.

:dragonair: Dragonair
I've been theory-crafting with this mon for weeks, I've gotta say it's extremely hard to build with. But the mon does have some very appealing attributes to it, the rare and very strong mono-dragon typing is huge. This pokemon is great at spreading paralysis and throwing out powerful coverage.

:machamp: Machamp
I see ZU in this pokemons future. Machamp isn't like, awful but it's pretty hard to justify right now, it's damage output is good but it's not going around ohkoing things, it's speed is bad and worst of all it's defensive typing Is pathetic. Abra is extremely common rn aswell so revenging this pokemon after it does get a kill is extremely easy.

D TIER

:kingler: Kingler
I dare you to find one team comp that actually wants this pokemon right now.
There's tons of good, splashable water types in this tier so you aren't going to kingler for that. It's speed tier isn't inherently awful but it fails to hit any notable benchmarks. It's crab hammers are strong but easy to pivot around.
This pokemon just isn't equipped for this tier unfortunately.

:drowzee: Drowzee
Obviously this is still the porygon check it always was, aswell as being tough to come in on and spreading status well.
Not much to say as I haven't used it myself yet.

:nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
There isn't too much actually wrong with this pokemon. However it does underspeed golduck and staryu, whom tie with nidoking. If it wasn't clear nidoking is the source of all this pokemons problems now. It's completely outclassed but on its own merit, it's fine I guess.

:pinsir: Pinsir
This pokemon is bad.
Near impossible to fit unless you specifically go out of your way to do so.
Not excitingly fast or particularly threatening. I don't currently advise to use this, but it's not useless.

:slowpoke: Slowpoke
Slowpoke shows itself off as a fairly bulky mon with twave and an impressive typing.
Its impossible to get amnesia going and I don't recommend trying, but on its own merits it functions as a bulky check to a few things.

:arbok: Arbok
More theory than anything
Its decent speed and moves like wrap,glare,eq,etc. Pose a very real threat on paper. In practice it misses wrap and gets blown up instantly due to poor bulk.

The stuff in UR is mostly stuff that used to be ranked and isn't anymore or stuff I've talked about with others that idt has a real niche.

I think that's all I have to say right now
❤️❤️
 
Last edited:

^ RBY Team used in PUBD

Metagame thoughts after PUBD: I think the metagame itself is actually fine (as in playable) and would remain fine with no tiering action what so ever. I do think though that games tend to be extremely linear with some of the RBY luck factor to where metagame will stagnate pretty quick in the same trade wars that seem to happen in every single game. Lead -> trade leads, go to Duck or counter for non-optimal lead (or Duck vs Duck), pick off with horse, bring horse, trade, bring next mon, so forth, likely SD Scyther eliminating everything.

Despite the above of thinking format is fine, if I had my way I would straight up remove Porygon from the format. There is little that can come in on it safely and the out to it is normally critting through it or forcing coverage on Ape/Champ to break through it (which doesnt even KO without chip at cost of Paralyze/Psychic). It's relatively the most unfun part of what is a pretty good format. Wouldn't mind Horse going either but I don't have strong opinions on it that differ much from my previous statement above. All in all PU might be more diverse if Porygon/Rapidash/Golduck all went or at least tested. The latter two their best checks are themselves which lead into these same paths every game takes and I've explained my stance on Porygon.

Gastlies already asked for a VR, I sent to her on cord I'll let her sort that out since idk what process they are using in the future.
 
Last edited:
APT is banned from here till such time as it gets revised in UU for any reason
 
1744376714710.png
hi here's my really cool VR after playing for pu big draft
random exerpts for some of the mons:

-Rapidash and Golduck both stand out as "undroppables" to me , but you can afford to drop one of them, maybe not both. I put rapidash over golduck due to the higher speed and the chances for random burns and paralysis from spamming its best moves.
-Switching golduck into rapidash never felt reliable to me. A full hp rapidash can hit golduck on entry and then attack twice barring a critical hit surf, burns or paralysis on entry nonwithstanding. For that reason i found it safer to switch rapidash into itself, fire blast especially. Golduck depends heavily on its hp to get most of it's value, whereas rapidash can still be effective at low hp due to being the fastest mon in the tier.

-Porygon can get out of control depending on set and what mons the opponent has left so i have to rank it this high within A. It does struggle to switch into almost everything and it still is susceptible to getting randomly crit though. There is a lot of moveset diversity to this mon and it should always be explored further. Some standouts:
-Hyper beam: this is an ohko on abra and can do 30-40% to golduck in spite of amnesia
-agility: great move to extend pory's longevity, but running this + thunder wave + recover limits porygon to 1 attack which can be exploited by abra and amnesia golduck or fished by less common mons like eggy jr and drowzee.
-blizzard: chunks nidoking and prevents it from being walled by eggy jr.
-thunder wave: this move can probably be dropped occasionally to run a set with 2 attacks + agility, quite splashable otherwise

-Seaking is way easier to use in this PU since gastly and staryu have both fallen off significantly. Without fearow it is not as necessary to run nidoqueen(there is nidoking instead, who is a huge issue for both gastly and staryu) -- thus making it more viable. A team with all of abra magmar rapidash and pidgeot is asking to get swept lategame, for example. porygon remains a big obstacle for seaking at full hp, given that it has enough bulk to not get 2hko'd by a critical hit from any of it's moves.
-notably, abra partners very well with seaking: all of the viable pokemon above speed 90 other than primeape are 2hko'd by seaking and threaten abra with heavy physical pressure: magmar pidgeot rapidash scyther, while abra can handle problem pokemon for seaking such as golduck, staryu, and porygon. Sadly seaking would rather set up agility at high hp so it cant switch into pokemon that threaten abra, so another defensive mon is needed(ideally something that can switch into primeape)
-Primeape has quite a lot of good moves to work with: rock slide for fires, thunderbolt for golduck and seaking, seismic toss hits everything for good damage, submission is a 2hko on porygon and a crit ohko, counter makes the pidgeot matchup quite a lot better, hyper beam is a good finisher and ohko's abra. It is quite tough to pick only 4 from these, though.
-Nidoking trades well with almost anything and slays a lot of random B and C mons(staryu gastly eggs kingler) but it is rather easy to revenge kill.
-Venusaur is decent at fighting seaking and probably worth using in lead for the occasional porygon lead users, but the lines for the venusaur user after it lands sleep at all are very awkward. maybe with swords dance it can throw out a decently strong hyper beam at the switchin if it doesnt get ko'd right after?
-Drowzee and Exeggcute thrive in an environment where most porygons were not using normal type moves and were leaning heavily on mono-psychic. they will likely be less viable once low tier players are reminded of basic facts of movepools such as: porygon has an expansive offensive moveset.
-Kingler is truly awful into most everything, yet i list it here because of the very good defensive calcs into seaking. Only hyper beam from seaking is able to break its substitute for example. Possible niche?
-staryu is a good seaking check at full hp as usual, though arguably porygon is way better at being staryu. Cant be paraslammed, higher bulk, no weaknesses. cant go wrong with a second twave recover user though.
-poliwag is speed 90 with hypnosis. It is punished heavily by every single pokemon in the tier when it misses. Extremely frail.
 
Last edited:
Some random thoughts about many stuff - some pubd replay insights, some mons thoughts, etc.

PUBD semis vs AM

Discord ramblings
My scout got destroyed by wanted

:rb/exeggcute:

I expect egg so I would only bring one of ape/pory/abra
No back magmar coz double water
Drop nidoking to not be weak to double water
Double fire has no nidoking (since AM exploited nidoking week 4)
Pinsir is nice since pory check plus speed ties too 268
Double bug lose to double fire so I had pidgeot

Game 1:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-825143

Magmar mirror. Led to duck mirror. Led to dash mirror. AM revenged with ape so it led to ape vs pinsir. Hbeam hits so AM revenge with scyther that led to scyther mirror. So final battle was scyther slash chipped nidoking vs porygon.

Nidoking crit eq but I also crit psychic so this match was just coinflip.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-825146

G2. I got the unfortunate venu led to match up to my pory. These lines tend to end up with dash mirror. Both of us refused to duck mirror since a chip to duck seems huge. Thus, I decided to accept the dash mirror but AM went pory. It led to Pinsir. Para’d pinsir falls to venusaur.

So basically it led to dash both 30% with me having nidoking back vs a 77% pory and another back mon. Turns out that pory is agility and the back mon is nidoking so welp, gg.

Game3:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-825150

:rb/nidoking:

Then here it's a nidoking mirror. And what do we expect? I’m playing 5v6 again not becoz I got slept but aside from losing speed tie, crit also proc. It led to duck ditto. I revenge with ape. But I had no submission so AM went pory then I went pinsir. Pinsir KO’d scyther at least before falling to dash.

It’s 3v4 atp. Unfortunately, I lost the dash mirror. I revenge with ape but AM doesn’t wanna risk so pory check it only to be KO’d by crit hbeam. Fblast hits ape so it’s now a 1.5 mon vs 2. Ape falls to nidoking but chipped it enough to be in scyther’s range.

1v1 but turns out…..it’s vs blizz seaking.

Moving forward to finals, should have known double bug won’t work……..since pidge vs seaking happened there but at least I had sand attack to win that.

PUBD Finals vs Maris

Game 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-828596

I decided to go pory lead. Ill prob discuss this a bit in a separate post to not make this post too long and only focused on analysis. Anyways, the actual game had pory vs golduck. Twave is obv so Nidoking in and tbf, it takes psychic just fine.

Porygon Psychic vs. Nidoking: 131-154 (35.8 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Nidoking Earthquake vs. Porygon: 128-151 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And you’ll likely crit porygon before you ran out of eq so fair.

In here, I didn’t know why I went pinsir. I burned one a half minute and yet, I still did not go pidge lmao. Even with -1 spc, fblast deals a lot and could crit too. Although tbf, I might be afraid of blizz crit too if I went pidge.

Pidgeot Hyper Beam vs. Nidoking: 165-195 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 36% chance to 2HKO
Nidoking Blizzard vs. Pidgeot: 182-214 (49.3 - 57.9%) -- 98.3% chance to 2HKO

Anyways that’s a food for thought for another day. For now, let’s continue with pinsir running into magmar

Pinsir Slash vs. Rapidash on a critical hit: 145-171 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
Pinsir Slash vs. Magmar on a critical hit: 161-190 (48.3 - 57%) -- 92.9% chance to 2HKO

Early pinsir turned out nice since we get the duck in early. Idk, some might argue that having healthy duck for back would be nice but I think fblast chip is fine since it force something midgame. Maris went hbeam in which I regret not clicking amnesia like…..that’s a free setup.

Pory comes in to para the duck but maris knows I’m switching out so she clicked psychic to chip pinsir. Some might say pinsir needs submission but nah….just roll with sd and hbeam xd. Then they revenged my pinsir with duck that led to me revealing staryu.

Again twave is obv so Nidoking in.

Staryu Surf vs. Nidoking: 199-234 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- 41% chance to OHKO

I lost speedtie so nidoking still won that. I revenged with pidge then she revenge with dash. Fblast is expected so I switch to my dash. Then I won the dash mirror but got punished with my hbeam missing in front of duck.

Hbeam duck was revealed which was expected for a lead duck ig but that duck is now down at 45%. Good thing it’s in range of pidge hbeam so final mons left for both of us.

:rb/seaking:

Pidge vs seaking.

Seaking Blizzard vs. Pidgeot: 188-222 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pidgeot Double-Edge vs. Seaking: 122-144 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Pidgeot Hyper Beam vs. Seaking: 182-214 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So no choice, I have to sand attack. Blizz miss so gg.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-828601

G2 I got knowledge-checked. Ape vs duck, I was convinced maris will click tbolt to cover a possible pidge in but since she had grav back, stoss covers everything including my gastly. I was afraid hypnosis would miss so I went psychic. This was the 2nd time I did this and the first one I should definitely have hypnosis’d vs AM.

Because of that, I fell into scyther as revenge since I didn’t want an early duck line and fblast dash might miss. But for this team, rapidash might have been the better option since this loses to grav if pidge dont sand attack gastly/grav.

Good thing I had pory but again, I got knowledge-checked. I remember vs wanted that I should have hbeam vs abra but then, I had blizz this time since I didn’t know the lines will go into this direction.

Porygon Blizzard vs. Abra: 70-83 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Blizz breaks sub but the spc drop here hurts and I ignored how huge an abra psychic does despite it not 2hko-ing pory but still, hitting blizz 4 times through para and trying to dodge spc drop sounds a tall task. I got knowledge-checked again since I thought since status goes through sub in rby, sand attack would also as well but that was crucial, I learned from the fly. I had dash and duck left vs ape pory and 2 more which is likely a dash and duck too.

So I had no choice but to try to fspin kill the pory. Pory also managed to beat duck. It won the battle just taking 3 fspin since I click amnesia but then got parad hard. Maris needlessly had all the luck in here it seems. But also just shows how OP Pory can be. Imagine beating both dash and duck at full health and leave the game with still 81% without even clicking recover…..

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-828606

:rb/primeape:

G3 it was ape mirror. I won the mirror then revenged by Nidoking. Now that I think about it, in G2 she had ape grav abra pory and presumably duck and dash but dash could be nidoking hmmm.

Nidoking Earthquake vs. Primeape: 140-165 (42 - 49.5%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO

I click stoss wishing I’d win the 54% roll but welp did not happen. I almost punished a team with ape lead but no scyther back. It led to me revenging with pidge but again, I was sent to a new area with pidge grav interaction to the point that I forgot I’m faster so I should have sand attack then and there lmao but anyway, she miss rslide anyway so doesn’t matter even if I forgot.

I revenged grav with duck in reinforcing the early duck theory. Met with abra. She probably think I’m switching out but nah I know with amnesia I’m fine bar crit. I’m down to 47%.

Now let’s see which could ohko duck with hbeam.

Scyther Hyper Beam vs. Golduck: 136-160 (37.4 - 44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Pinsir Hyper Beam vs. Golduck: 149-176 (41 - 48.4%) -- 15.4% chance to OHKO
Pidgeot Hyper Beam vs. Golduck: 165-195 (45.4 - 53.7%) -- 79.5% chance to OHKO

So she revenged with nidoking and try to fish for para proc while behind sub in which for the payoff of ape losing the matchup earlier. By the way, turns out last mon is duck so ye the calcs I showed are useless lmao but nice benchmark just in case this duck is hbeam too.
Of course I did not gamble, I still have 3 healthy mons so I went pory to para it. She managed to get an amnesia up but down to 60% after pory hbeam. Good thing I was hbeam in here reinforcing what I learned g2 again.

So turns out Maris reused g3. Good thing I really learned from g2 or else, this would end up like how I lost to cake who also just reused team to beat me since that time, idk how to deal with venusaur lmao.

Going back to the game, I could still definitely choke.

Seaking Hyper Beam vs. Golduck: 120-142 (33 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But since I had back seaking vs golduck and nidoking in range to ohko? It won. I haven’t revealed my last mon but it’s obviously dash. Dash could also hbeam duck and KO nidoking btw so yeah ggs.

Now onto some more thoughts.

:rb/rapidash:

Fire spin is one thing about dash. Like yeah in all of my games, I tend to think about fire spin. Especially since how calculative sabel used it vs me multiple time in a same game in our series. And aside from that, I only really tried fire spin to win vs like porygon but still got punished and the game vs cake. But I think it’s more of because dash is one of the fastest mons (ties with scyther) in the tier.

Dash lines is also what leads to duck mirror or if not, the staryu vs duck trade that happened in maris vs wanted series. I think if dash is gone, yes it will be more centralized to duck but as what happened in some of my recent series, there’s a path to either punish early duck especially duck lead and downside to trying to hold off duck at the back for too long. Staryu vs duck isn’t really that bad even if duck has amnesia boost since staryu should be able to chip duck in range of something like scyther slash or it would be nice if rslide on ape would be a free slot for like submission to at least cover pory (watch what happened vs AM g3 of semis) and that’s a nice click vs duck without fearing a grav in compared if the likes of scyther and pidge was used as revenger.

And speaking of grav, yeah dash kinda helps in it not being too OP since it is at least scared of fblast and doesn’t wall it as hard as it walls pidge/scythe. And I know how tricky it is to switch a water into it. But we can still have options for grav like porygon and uhh venusaur.

And speaking of venusaur, without dash, it can be a legit threat now. It will also help with dealing vs duck coz razor leaf when it’s para’d. Another one that can benefit with dash gone is pinsir. Scyther isn’t also going wreck havoc since there’s gastly and grav.

I wanted to talk about seaking next but post seem too long now already atp. How I wish I have a replay to showcase this but even the replays in PUBD, most are back seakings. Only replay I remembered watching with seaking early was this AM vs Maris game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-820725

Skip to turn 6. AM used seaking to revenge dash. Maris then went Ape which was another mon that is problematic to switch into. So seaking goes down. AM still won here though coz why? Golduck got psycrit by Abra. Though there’s prob a better move in the turn revenging venusaur. Could have gone to the other problematic to switch into mon which is Nidoking. Yeah there’s pidge and tbolt might have been dropped coz of sub but in that team idk if it is sub but pretty sure it’s not since there’s no para spreader in the comp. But anyways, even if AM was convinced nidoking would click eq and thus Pidge enters, Nidoking could still chip it enough to be cleaned up by scyther. That would lead to scyther being sac’d to dash for positioning. Like I know there’s still stuff like the same Abra crit but positioning here is.

I need to TLDR since post is too long

It is possible to maneuver games into dash ditto or duck mirror. This adds another coinflippy part of the tier aside from the 268 speedties.

Speaking of speedties, anything faster than those are great. Especially when calculating lines pre-mirror or after mirror to lead the game into a desired seaking vs fly mu.

Hyper beam is a great move in this tier.

Some random combos like ape + scyther, lead choices and matchups, and revenging lines discussed. Tldr, having a faster mon is better generally. That's why ape can be tricky to deal with without poisons.

I've been saying ban rapidash since week 1 of pubd.

That's all for now.
 
1744748111597.png


Didn't play in PUBD or anything, so take this with a grain of salt, but played about 20 tour games between FC and RoA ST & topped the PU RoA ladder (meaningless but we love a bit of bad-faith flexing), so figured I'd drop my thoughts on all the mons I think have any sort of place post-VL. Apologies for the ensuing 32-mon yap session.

S TIER — Play every game assuming you'll see these mons

:golduck: Golduck & :rapidash: Rapidash
I think Golduck and Rapidash are pretty interchangeable for the top spot, and the only mons in the tier you should really expect to see on every single team, though some talented folks have found success on teams without them. Golduck is often spent fighting itself, but being one of the only safe golduck switch-ins in the tier outside of *maybe* Staryu is great, and it threatens any non-water type with immediate big damage. Amnesia isn't the scary sweeping tool it once was in NU with how fast and physically offensive current PU is, but it serves as a great answer to stallers like Porygon in a pinch, and to a lesser extent Staryu. Rapidash is one of the safest revenge killers out there, outspeeds everything, hits almost everything for solid damage, threatens para with body slam, threatens lategame cheese and emergency pivoting utility with fire spin, it really has everything you'd want.

:porygon: Porygon
The undisputed stall king of PU. Twave+recover gives it incredible chipping potential against anything that can't do more than 50% per hit (which is most of the tier). Unless something else switches in and paralyzes/sleeps it, Porygon completely shuts down Seaking, Pidgeot, Magmar, Graveler, and Counter-Golduck, and puts other high tier mons like Rapidash, Scyther, and Primeape in a tough spot, because even though they can technically break pory with fire spin/SD/Submission, they really don't like eating a para. The 'gon also has the best set diversity in PU, with access to Blizz/Psychic/TBolt/Agility/Hyper Beam/DEdge/& Sharpen(lol) to round out its final 2 moves. There's a configuration of Porygon that beats just about every single mon in the tier with a little bit of luck. Though not the best duck in PU, it's probably responsible for the most single-handedly won endgames if nothing's able to break it.


A TIER — They have a consistently useful role and fill it well

:pidgeot: Pidgeot & :scyther: Scyther
These mons fill very similar roles on a team as a fast revenge killer that can hit anything besides Gastly and the rocks for big damage, and I think they're both roughly as good as each other. Pidgeot is a bit more consistent in my eyes, as it's more immediately threatening thanks to STAB, and you can play more recklessly with it and get more value throughout the course of a game. Using Scyther in the early/midgame reveals that you have one, and your opponent will take extra care not to let themselves get to a position where you can set up SD and clean house. Scyther has access to more tools and is faster, but most of the time I prefer using Pidgeot because it can be used at any point in the game without losing value.

:nidoking: Nidoking
Nido at #6 is something I went back and forth on, as I think there's an argument for him as high as 4 or as low as 9. He's extremely plug-and-play, and goes roughly 1-for-1 on most things in the tier. Probably the 2nd most consistent lead in the tier (slightly below Magmar), and whenever I drop him, I end up wishing I had him as a reliable option in almost every endgame.

:magmar: Magmar
Probably the most consistent lead in the tier. Psychic has a >50% chance to beat Nidoking, HBeam ohkos Abra, FBlast hits Venusaur for like 75%, Rapidash doesn't want to risk BSlam para, and if you see the odd lead Golduck you can switch to your own Golduck and still trade roughly 1-for-1. Magmar isn't going to pidgeonhole you as a lead no matter what you see. It also works well mid/lategame as a fast revenge killer, and a decent option to fight a lategame rapidash with BSlam paras or counter.

:abra: Abra
I still don't love using Abra, but I can't deny that it has a great role as a solid attacker that outspeeds Nidoking/Golduck/Venusaur/Gastly, very little wants to switch in on it, can spread para with twave, and it works as a decent answer to the most common Porygon set (twave/recover/psychic/agility). Even if it dies to every fast attacker with a normal type attack, it makes a very consistent early/midgame piece, and its PUBD usage reflects that, at #5 most commonly-brought mon.

B1 TIER — They fill helpful roles, but are inconsistent

:seaking: Seaking
Definitely the best B tier mon, the amount of high-level matches that end in the "Seaking agility" into "sweep everything left on the field" combo make it an obvious win condition and a dangerous threat. But depending on the endgame you're left with, plenty of matches end with a Seaking that does very little and then dies, and Porygon needs to be out of the picture before Seaking tries to sweep. It needs the right conditions to thrive, and players better than I can get scarily good value out of it.

:gastly: Gastly
The best sleeper in the tier imo. Shuts down any Pidgeot/Scyther without a flying move (plenty of them run either sand attack or agility as their optional moves, so this is quite common), and can still provide tempo in a neutral-to-bad matchup if it gets lucky with Hypnosis or boom. It's just a bit too frail in the new meta, has a slightly unfavorable venusaur matchup (speed tie + less accurate sleep move) and dies if Nidoking looks at it funny.

:primeape: Primeape
A solid revenge killer that outspeeds other common revenge killers like Pidgeot/Magmar/Abra. It's worse than all of them at being a standard revenge killer, but its speed tier gives it an edge at revenging them back. Unlike them, it can also threaten a kill on a chipped Porygon using Submission (does around 75% damage), and doesn't get walled by Graveler the way Pidg/Scyther do.

:venusaur: Venusaur
Looks amazing at first glance, but actually kinda sucks if you use it long enough. It's very bulky and has the most consistent sleep, but it really struggles to do much once sleep is off the table. It doesn't get double powder, it's too slow to safely answer Golduck with razor leaf, and the fires clobber you, since you've usually eaten 40% before landing sleep in the first place. Best value imo is immediately trying to sleep something, then fishing for body slam paras on whatever comes in. Pidgeot really shuts it down post-sleep as a result, and Scyther likes setting up on it since bslam doesn't break sub.

:graveler: Graveler
Being a big bulky rock type gives it incredibly polarizing matchups in this meta. Everything outspeeds it, and anything with a super effective move pretty much one-shots it. It does however completely shut down Pidgeot/Scyther which is super helpful given how immediately threatening they are, and threatens solid damage with EQ/RSlide/Boom on most everything else. It really wishes it didn't have to worry about FBlast burns, because it can be a very scary threat to a Rapidash or Magmar, and it really can't safely switch in on either of them unless you're confident a hyper beam is coming your way.

B2 TIER — Koolaid I'm drinking

:staryu: Staryu
Staryu wishes Porygon wasn't around to outclass it, but it does appreciate most of the mons that dropped from NU. Can threaten twave + tbolt on Golduck (though amnesia is unfortunate for it), threatens twave+surf on Rapidash, totally shuts down Seaking, threatens to paralyze the fast revenge killers, it's got all the trappings of a great mon. But in my experience it's tough to slot 2 fairly-slow stall mons on the same team, and Porygon just fills this role better. And it seems the high-level players agree, as Porygon was used 4x as much as Staryu in tour.

:pinsir: Pinsir & :machamp: Machamp
Two mons that can threaten solid damage on most of the tier and have decent bulk, but they're unfortunately both outcompeted by Nidoking now. If you want something you can safely go 1-for-1 with, just bring Nido. Pinsir hates that Rapidash and Magmar are so often healthy lategame, and Machamp is just slow as dirt. Both do have a niche as lategame Porygon answers with Swords Dance & Submission, but they're sort of a weird hybrid of Nidoking and Primeape that don't have the high points of either of them. They usually put in work, but it's hard to justify them over mons higher on this list.

:wigglytuff: Wigglytuff
I'll be real, my wigglytuff stocks dropped from like high B1 to almost C as the meta developed. On paper, it's incredibly bulky, has access to a sleep move to take advantage of that bulk, can spread paralysis, packs blizzard/tbolt/bslam/hbeam for solid damage, has sky-high HP to make counters hit like a truck, it's got so much going for it. So why is it so ass? It underperforms consistently in all the matches I've seen it used in. It doesn't have Chansey level bulk against anything, so going for sing is very inconsistent. Twave is nice, but Porygon/Abra/Staryu do it better. It's slow as dirt, so even if it hits for decent damage, it can only do it 2-3 times before it dies, since it doesn't have recovery outside of rest. I wish it were better, and it definitely has the potential to rise for me if I see it perform well, but so far it's just not there.

:drowzee: Drowzee
Drowzee at B2 might seem way too high, but I think he has a surprisingly good matchup spread. He can safely switch into Abra & Porygon without risking much damage (at least until pory users stop packing exclusively psychic as their only damaging move), and Drowzee beats both of them 1v1. Abra seismic toss is a 4hko, while Drowzee headbutt is often a 3hko, or you could pack Mega Kick for a guaranteed 2hko if you're cool. Hypnosis is incredibly threatening if Drowzee gets onto the field against an abra/pory, and since it's already slow as dirt it doesn't fear eating a para. Plus if you're really wacky, counter OHKOs pidgeot regardless of what attacking move it uses.

:omanyte: Omanyte
Is Omanyte at B2 probably very stupid and *definitely* indicative of bias? No, I would never suggest that. But hypothetically if it WAS pure cope that it's this high, let me defend it a bit. As a rock type that only really attacks specially, it doesn't have to worry about burn the same way Graveler does. It can safely switch in on Rapidash/Pidgeot/Scyther, and unlike ZU, Magmar doesn't run seismic toss all that often, so you can switch in on Magmar pretty reliably as well. It doesn't hit very hard outside of decent water/ice attacks, and is slow as bricks, so it only shines as a counter in endgames, but given how often endgames have a Rapidash/Pidgeot/Scyther/Magmar, your odds of getting good milage out of this thing is quite high. Hates tf out of Seaking endgames tho.

C TIER — Koolaid I'm not drinking (yet)

:kingler: Kingler
My crab agenda can only elevate this thing so far. While it can hit most things for solid damage and is one of the few mons that can break an endgame porygon, this thing is just too slow for this meta. It doesn't work very well early/midgame, it eats decent damage if it ever tries to switch in or revenge something, if your opponent has Venusaur it's the freest switch of all time, it's just rough. I want this mon to do well, and I think it has the potential to work as a lategame mon with some developments and move up to B2, but so far it's way outclassed by Seaking.

:exeggcute: Exeggcute
Incredibly slow and hates the prevalence of fire types and blizzard users. It has boom which is nice, and its psychic typing gives it a niche against monopsy/psybolt pory and abra, but it's just tough to slot. Might be the Drowzee koolaid talking, but I'm taking the stupid tapir way before I take the egg.

:sandslash: Sandslash
Has a lot of potential as a monopsy/psybolt Porygon punish, and can find solid entry points against twave/tbolt users like pory/abra/gastly/staryu/drowzee. It can hit quite hard, can set up even further with SD, and not too much wants to switch into it once it's out, but like Kingler it's just too slow to hang imo. I'd like to see more high-level players experiment with it, and I can see it moving up/down for me with more games to reference, but mid C seems fair for now.

:dragonair: Dragonair
It's very underwhelming in PU, but it technically has a niche. It can spread para and chip away at stuff with wrap, but even when APT wasn't transitively banned here, Dragonair wasn't eating much at all. Now that it's relegated to purely parawrap, it's starving.

:poliwag: Poliwag
It's technically the fastest sleeper in the tier, and can be used in cheesy ways to exploit Nidoking/Golduck as a result, but it's fucking Poliwag. This thing is in danger of dropping to SU, and even with an amnesia up it's still not hitting very hard. 40% of the time it's going to do nothing and then die, and the other 60% it's going to do mostly nothing and then die. Like Kingler/Sandslash, this thing was brought to 0/82 PUBD games, and unlike them, with Poliwag I completely understand why.

:nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
Wow, how the mighty have fallen. With Nidoking in the tier, there's genuinely more of a reason to use Poliwag than there is to use Nidoqueen. King/queen don't work well on a team together, and king hits better damage thresholds and more importantly has a better speed tier. If you're ever thinking about bringing Nidoqueen as a diet 2nd Nidoking, consider bringing Pinsir/Machamp instead. They at least fill different niches and have different entry points, rather than a strictly worse copy of a mon you already have.

D TIER — Bro thinks he's on the team

:arbok: Arbok
Worse Dragonair. *Maybe* you could have a reason to bring this on some kind of weird paraspam/wrapspam team?

:muk: Muk
I love the stupid sludge pile, but it can't hang here. Throwing it out loses you so much tempo, as it doesn't hit very hard and lets your opponent switch into something that does. You could maybe try to catch something with a stray boom while preserving your own valuable pieces, but you better hope they don't have a Gastly/Graveler.

:slowpoke: Slowpoke
This meta hits way too hard for Slowpoke to find a home here. It can't restloop without either dying or letting a mon set up, and it doesn't hit hard at all, even with an amnesia up. The best it'll do is spread a bit of para and then either die or sabotage your game through inaction.

:vileplume: :marowak: :flareon: :parasect: :butterfree: These Chumps
They're all ass. They're strictly worse versions of mons higher on the list, but I've seen competent-seeming players try to make all of them work on ladder. None of them can hang in PU, and the opportunity cost of bringing them is unjustifiable imo. Unsurprisingly, despite what anyone might confidently assert early into current PU, Flareon is NOT in fact better than Magmar.
 
my-image(53).png

Wasn't originally planning on posting my VR and explanations since I feel the current temp VL is mostly representative of how the meta is right now, but there has been a lot of discussion here so I'd like to strike while the iron is hot. Also my eyes hurt from typing this so I feel like my points aren't really that well-articulated here. uhhh might possibly edited this if it just reads incomprehensibly.
Rapidash - Unsurprisingly the best mon in the tier. 105 speed beats everything and every other fastmon is scared of this Pokémon, Dash is highly centralizing. After bird/scythe/ape/abra ever take a KO, dash comes in and the opp is forced to sac something really, the only exception is allowing Golduck to take a Bslam/Fblast and trade with your duck which resets momentum on the speed tie (unless you get crit on entry) or to risk Porygon which jeopardizes the whole game. Like if you ever contrive a reason to not use this Pokémon it's still a really good lead too, bslam -> hbeam on duck is 100% acceptable. In terms of how powerful a fastmon is in any tier, this is probably the strongest a fastmon is in any lt atm. Not to mention robbery potential with fspin, no reason to ever drop this mon tbh. Is it healthy? Probably not. I feel a lot of games come down to how well your Rapidash trade goes. With any amount of chip, 2 Body Slams put each other into Hbeam range, and if only one Pokémon gets paralyzed the unparalyzed player is obscenely ahead. I feel my poor record in PUBD is a result of hesitation to go into these Rapidash mirrors -- I consistently tried to avoid these mirrors because of how volatile they are, watching my play throughout the tour, I would rather risk Nidoking burn or Porygon crit then risk a mirror. Sadly, I now think Rapidash mirrors are kind of like Arcanine mirrors, if your opponent wants to force one, you just have to accept it.

Golduck - I find this Pokémon's position in the tier to be really funny. On one hand, it is the best slowmon in the tier, it wins or trades well enough into basically everything, and is the best switchin and best way to minimize damage from the opponent's duck. It importantly is a buffer that stops Rapidash from running away with the game too early. On the other hand, it really only wins one interaction per game and basically, everything can put duck into easy revenge range if push comes to shove. So there really isn't any reason to optimize lines to try and say, a late-game duck or something in the same way people innovate ways to not trade Mimes in NU. As for the last move, Amnesia is probably because fool-proof Porygon counterplay doesn't really exist in this tier, or at the very least the lines aren't well-developed, so having more counterplay to it is better. Still, Counter should still be used to hopefully get your opponent to click inoptimally in fear, Body Slam is an OK option into people you suspect will bring Abra or especially Staryu, and Hyper Beam is probably the best on lead since Surf -> Hyper Beam allows you to win the duck mirror if they bail t1.

Porygon - It's metagame impact is rather silly. I think you can argue that this Pokemon is more centralizing than Rapidash. The best Pokémen in the tier tend to be fastmons, especially in this version of PU. I'll get into individual fastmons later, but essentially none of the fastmons really have the tools to outright beat Porygon, which gives rise to lastmon Porygon which kind of just owns everything? Even midgame Porygon is rather difficult to dislodge -- all the status mons that can deal with Porygon have counterplay, rather easy counterplay, in fact, so like the most consistent way to deal with Porygon is to send in your own Porygon and trade paralysis, and hope you are the first to Special drop. Very cool. The special drop part is important because a full health paralyzed Porygon still has another Twave in the tank. I think there are some optimizations in terms of this, I believe grounds to be underrated almost directly because of Porygon so your opponent can't just hard Porygon into your Thunder Wave and you also get a safe way to dispatch paralyze Porygons. Porygon is rather stupid but it also keeps the tier from being "bring 6 fastmons/agilitymons" which is cool I guess. Lots of untapped potential for Porygon to be even more annoying, too. MonoPsy is the most common set, Hbeam saw decent usage towards the end of PUBD. I think Blizzard is the next big thing, you own Grounds that might want to switch into Thunder Wave, you own Eggs, Scyther can't just SD in front of you, you also get better buttons to click vs Pidgeot. In terms of other sets, I think Double-Edge is kinda meh, but usable? Drowzee is rare and you still get owned but its an OK midground for Amnesia Golduck. Respectable but too niche. Thunderbolt should stop being run altogether. What does it hit? Golduck clicks Amnesia and Double-Edge does more damage, and you can't bet on critting. Maybe you can snipe Staryus? Seems bad, though the opportunity cost doesn't make it untenable, Twave + Recover + Real Move is a functional mon. Even though I'd consider this mon more centralizing than Golduck, you can't run this mon 100% of the time otherwise your opponent can bring out the silly mons that exist to own Porygon and do nothing else.

Pidgeot - ofc barring Rapidash, every fastmon is a picked poison. I think Pidgeot is probably the best by a hair because the big own of Pidgeot (Gastly and Graveler) are much worse when you miss your fish. Like all slowmons, it loses to Rapidash after it takes a KO, but you also gain the most from sacking it into Rapidash, you live a crit Fblast, and Hbeam does over 50%. It is the best of the revengers (excluding dash) in doing its job, STAB Hbeam hits the best ranges, nothing comes close, and crit Hbeam deletes anything really so the opponent risks much more preserving sacs. Furthermore, it has better Porygon counterplay than the rest of the Fires, Sand Attack scuttles Porygon's effectiveness which forces it out. Sand Attack also makes the Gastly mu much better, you make Hypnosis 40% accurate and basically force it out postsleep, no one is clicking a 67% accurate boom or a 67% accurate tbolt into a fire. Like all fastmons lose to Porygon but that isn't an excuse, you need to minimize how much Pory steps over you, I think you can't ever be giving that mon free turns. So it's probably the best 3rd for Pidgeot. As for the fourth, I'd say Agility or Mirror Move is the 'best.' Mirror move introduces silly mindgames vs Gastly, makes hard switching into Nidoking more real (if you come in an mm you live 2 tbolts), and you can do funny things with Recover in front of Porygon or SD in front of Scyther. Agility does all the stuff you already know it does, and reapplies paralysis/burns, in dash 1v1 you might as click it since the reward is so high, you also sometimes get to click it vs sacks to prevent bird/magmar/ape revenges. Agility also eases prediction vs Abra, dedge doesn't ohko and if you get para'd it sometimes is a blessing since you get to agil for free and hbeam something on the way out (relevant in endgames with fires). Substitute is niche but usable, you can Sand Attack and Substitute in front of monoPsy porygon and fish for Hyper Beam and even if the opp switches you are still protected by Substite to throw off another Hbeam, though the other 2 options I feel are better. Quick Attack I feel doesn't hit any ranges to be worth running. Wing Attack is a similar story, the only range it gets is putting Gastly in Abra Psychic range or picking off a Gastly that lives the Sky Attack roll. I don't think Wing Attack should ever be run unless you have an Abra or have Sky Attack on the same set. In conclusion, the pros are that bird is the best of the 2ndrate fastmons at actually revenging, the best of the 2ndrate fastmons in its dash&pory mu, and its counterplay is more likely to fall down a flight of stairs and flub, but the con is it's the weakest into the other 2ndrate fastmons.

Magmar - If your opponent never brings Seaking, guess what, Magmar is the best 2ndrate fastmon over bird. Fblast revenges about as well, Body Slam is almost as good at neutralizing Rapidash, though Cray is a step down from Sand Attack, though the reward is higher since you can deny Recover turns at the cost of less consistency overall. Cray also allows for some silly combos, like craying versus something you are def not going to win against to give Scyther/Seaking setup opportunities. You could also just run Smokescreen over it if you care about consistency, I have, so it isn't a huge overall loss. You also get to revenge bird and its more likely that ape doesn't have a move to hit you, and Scyther just like can never set up on you. The problem is that, unlike Gastly and Omanyte which are certified shitmons into not Pidgeot, Seaking is real and will ruin your day, even if you don't run Magmar. So running double back fire can blow up in your face based on matchup. Great lead also, since it's more expendable than Rapidash which is overall more scared of Body Slam para. Conclusion is that it is almost as good at revenging, while having almost as good dash/pory mus, but that is outweighed by being noticeably better into other 2ndrate fastmons. Sadly this doesn't matter in the face of Seaking, which will murderize you and steal your wallet. While we still live in the low Seaking environment I recommend spamming double back Fire into all the people who aren't hip with the metagame trends.

Seaking - Golduck tends to trade with itself in most games and really isn't a hard wall for Seaking anyways (a 50% golduck is a mere speedbump) and all the fastmons barring Ape just are mortally scared of this mon, you also own all the grounds too. Agility good because it ruins the flow of teams that just have 4-5 fastmons, and the best mons in the tier are fastmons, grounds, and ducks so this is a rather good environment for Seaking. Main thing stopping exigent Seaking spam from winning all tournaments is that Porygon is really good, and from watching all the PUBD games, it seems most teams' plan against Porygon is to hope it slips on a banana peel and die. To be fair, this is a very common occurrence. It's inconsistent tho and if the opponent's Porygon refuses to get unlucky your fish is just dead weight? The inconsistency cuts both ways tho. You might intend Porygon to stay in the back unless you need to stop Seaking, but other confounding events may make this impossible and then your own Porygon slips on a banana peel and you just lose to Seaking. A Seaking of your patches this issue up a lot. Seaking is one of the few ways to offensively check Rapidash, just don't hard switch it in unless you really need to since that torpedos your endgame. Even though this mon is ranked relatively high, (top 6) I don't really think its like, amazing.

Nidoking - Golduck kind of already trades well enough into everything so you don't need another slowmon that does that but slightly worse. Some other benefits like owning Gastly and not giving the opp an avenue to trade with itself, but like, this mon takes a hit when it wants to do anything and one hit flips its matchups. It's bad at revenging because of this and we don't live in an ideal world where your opponent's Pokémon are always at full health to maximize the value of your Nidoking trade. Very cool, I revenged something with Magmar but now you sent out Nidoking, I cannot switch my 20% Magmar out of your Nidoking. I guess I get to fish for crit/burn and even if I don't get it I'm still in a playable position because now all my mons 2HKO back while outspeeding. The biggest reason this mon is high is because of Porygon, as I alluded to earlier, a paralyzed Porygon is rather difficult to dislodge. Nothing really 2HKOs it so Porygon gets to throw off another Twave and go positive before going down. Even just forcing it out is good enough, the opponent must sacrifice momentum to ever put it back in. Nidoking is a functional, ok mon but it also gives you so many more options against Porygon. Very nice. Good lead too.

Abra - I guess this is a 2ndrate fastmon, but I really don't see it as such. The main reason you ever run this mon is because it is by far the best fastmon into Porygon at the expense of everything else you'd want in a fastmon. For one, at revenging, the opp can just trade Abras and if they happen to run the B- psychics they can also trade that instead. 90 speed and losing mus vs every other 2ndrate fastmon and dash too. This is the fastmon you run if you are really scared of Porygon, like for example of double back Fire teams which also synergize since they also make ur Abra mu better too. Even hbeam Pory is a thing, its the most consistent fastmon into Porygon, and all the other fastmons have inconsistent answers into Pory.

Primeape - Another 2ndrate fastmon. Completely dependent on set - I'd say you 100% need Hyper Beam and maybe Seismic Toss. Without Hyper Beam, Primeape is just dreadful at revenging so you need it. Rock Slide is there so Scyther can't set up on you and so you become positive into Magmar. I don't think Rock Slide is that helpful vs Rapidash and Pidgeot - Rapidash outspeeds and 2HKOs so you only get to attack once, and hey, if you want a 90% accurate 150 bp move you have Hyper Beam right there. Pidgeot also avoids a 2HKO with Rock Slide even with significant Dedge recoil chip and tbh Dedge -> Hbeam is a 74% roll anyways so clicking Hbeam is fine (tho tbf Agility can happen if you do this). Honestly, the best move versus Rapidash is Body Slam. 30% to just run away with another mon before going down. You could maybe justify hbeam/Bslam/subm/rock slide since you don't get completely walled by everything (except a Nidoking's substitute) but this is the only set I think you can drop stoss on. Submission is really good into Porygon obviously, maybe the best Porygon mu of all the 2ndrate fastmons (except Abra). Stubbornly bulky, lives 2 Nido EQs and 2 seaking Surfs, tbolt is a good option for your mu vs waters and also is better vs Pidgeot, no miss chance and a 10% chance to rob. Its Hbeam is the easiest to catch tho, even moreso than Mamgar (can fblast). In conclusion, it's the worst of the fastmons at actually revenging, but it maybe has the best Rapidash/Pory mu, it maybe is the best into other 2ndrate fastmons, it maybe is the best fastmon into nidoking/waters, it maybe is the least exploitable fastmon, but it all depends on set, and all of these statements can't be true at once.

Scyther - What stops this mon? Rapidash. The world is just sooo hostile to this mon while living under the Rapidash yoke. Unlike the other 2ndrate fastmons (accept maybe abra but you can gamble on them overpredicting) where you can trade damage on the way out and aren't forced to switch, with Scyther, you just can't ever risk the 50/50 in the midgame, which forces the mon into endgame. IG it has a decent Pory mu depending on set, IG it is on the better end of revenging since its Slash is so noncommital, IG its alright into 2ndrate fastmons pidgeot/abra while being bad into magmar/ape, IG its another fastmon weak to Seaking and has overlapping fishes with bird, but I think it just can't be used as a 2ndrate fastmon because the Rapidash revenge is just too powerful and puts the Scyther user too far behind. Luckily it excels in other roles, mainly late game sweeper, just force a midgame Dash mirror whenever the time is right. You don't OHKO Porygon at +2 so you really want Agility to not have your sweep stopped by paralysis, but you also really, really want a functional mon versus Gastly, at least Pidgoet has some plays. I genuinely believe dropping Slash to run both Agility and Wing Attack is a viable set. Scyther is just so bad at being a midgame 2ndrate fastmon that sending it out to click Slash and revenge something is just too costly, so going all in on the lategame comeback with Wing Attack and Agility is worth it.

Staryu - I've been describing mons with like slowmons that win trades (Golduck and Nidoking), fastmons (Dash, Bird, Magmar, Ape, Abra) and endgame wincons (Pory*, Seaking, Scyther), but Staryu falls into none of these? What does it do? Uhhh... it's a polarized slowmon, it doesn't generally win trades, twave is enough that you don't just lose a gazillion momentum, but the main reason is that is a soup of good traits, you can preserve Golduck for later, which is like cool, more importantly you have a twave for Porygon that doesn't get worn down as quickly (depending on set), most importantly you "wall" Seaking, which I think is the main reason for using this mon, if you have a permutation of fastmons that cant deal with both Seaking and Porygon. As a result, I think the 3 attacks set is rather meh, I think you just accept you will be owned by certain things rather than try to make Staryu into the world's worst fastmon so I recommend you actually play to Staryu strengths.

Venusaur - It's a fine lead. Soooo many issues with this mon, sleep is by no means mandatory in PU. For one, Venusaur doesn't really do much with the free turns it generates with sleep, you switch it out after sleep. Its slower than everything so it doesn't do much with its STAB and it basically is a sack once chipped so you might as well preserve it as one rather than fish for a 30% bslam para versus an incoming fire or a 0% bslam para vs bird/pory (if either of thse come to pass ur position is ass). Midgame Venu is just really bad. For one, if the opponent is in the very common situation of having a sac, uhhhh, you just sleep a sac because you do no damage, aka you just blew your teamslot and now Porygon walls you. I'm going to get on my 'sleep is overrated in rby lts' soapbox. Yes, I would like a 91% chance to not get frozen to have a 75% chance to turn a sac into a sac that can wake 14% each turn while wasting my momentum because Venusaur does nothing with the free turns Sleep gives except switching out, and also doesn't get entry on anything so you only bring this in when you lose a mon and pay an upfront momentum cost. Sleep may be a free KO except when it doesn't, but do you know what else gets a free KO? A fastmon. Just send out a fastmon and click the attacking button, this is an RBY LT, it will pick up a KO, there are hardly any switches here. Venusaur just does nothing outside of sleep, which I think is not worth it in this meta and is generally overrated, you also make your Porygon mu worse, Scyther can setup on you too, IG you own Seaking so that's cool. Even as a lead, I think it's fine, but not like the best by any stretch. It's positionally so risky, Fires can crit your duck on entry on switch out. The best way to minimize gamelosing freezes is to not bring Pokémon where the optimal click against them is Blizzard, and Nidoking vs Venusaur is that case. Even if you get the sleep off, a slept mon vs a 60% Venu is a fine position. And let's talk about the nightmare scenario of Venu vs Venu. 50%, you get nothing at all. In lead Nidoking or Magmar or whatever mirrors, it's a 50% chance you win but you still get damage which improves your position. In the venu mirror, the end result doesn't advance your position, if you lose I wouldn't go as far to say you probably lose because the opponent is using a Venusaur which will do nothing except get sacked, but it certainly puts you behind.

Gastly - Same issues as Venusaur, sleep is overrated and even riskier with Hypnosis, Gastly doesn't do much with its free turns, you also are a slowmon that doesn't really get entry barring Scyther/Bird, you are liable to getting owned by Nidoking gamers. Maybe this mon is better since it discourages bird spam + actually gains entry + has a button to generate momentum most notably against Porygon.

Eggs & Drowzee - Sleep overatted blah blah but these mons get entry on Porygon which is a really really good fish. Eggs is better rn but Blizzard Pory may pick up in the future for bird/scythe/grounds/eggs and DZ actually outspeeds and has a 100% accurate twave + stronger Psychic.

Sandslash & Graveler - No pory is really running Blizzard (except for blizzbolt gamers, what are you guys doing man, please run dedge or psychic). Sandslash is a ground that doesn't get owned by Psychic and actually can beat Porygon without relying on a twave trade. Graveler requires twave on Porygon but also is better into birds/scyther, and you can boom Porygon if you flub your twave mon. Sadly they have the hell numbers of being slower than the common sleepers and get revenged but they are enough of an offensive threat to not get owned by switches.

Pinsir - Pinsir is like the last slowmon that doesn't get owned by hard sleepers (no switching venu into pinsir is not something to look forward to). It obviously gets owned so hard versus fires, who woulda guessed so it is obviously not that good. Still, I can see scenarios where this mon is optimal, the main reason is that it is way better versus Seaking. SD + Hbeam is like, enough of a threat to not get owned by Porygon so it can kinda sorta function.

Machamp - In general slowmons are really mediocre because Golduck and Nidoking are the only slowmons that dont get owned by hard sleepers so you need to be very very specialized to justify a place on a team over these guys. Machamp barely qualifies, it has a EQ that is only 9% weaker than queen's EQ, hits everything for a morbillion, and is generally good Porygon counterplay.

Wigglytuff - I lost every set for around 3 weeks during PUBD because there was an angel and a devil on my shoulder, one of them telling me to run Seaking and the other one telling me to run Wigglytuff. Both the angel and the devil in question was gastlies. Wiggly is a slowmon with no defined role. Like it is ok versus everything, but slowmons that get owned by sleepers (and get revenged by... other slow mons) are just meh, and Wigglytuff is the most meh of them all, not really having any defined positive mus barring Porygon. Either way, the opp can just preserve Porygon and trade something else because like 2 good smacks from any mon makes Wigglytuff worthless. I've heard people say this mon is like glue, it can do anything, but it's more like goo, it does everything poorly. I've never seen a person's scout and thought "Wow, wiggly goes tuff into this joker". Every time I've brought this mon I thought "uhhhh my team gets owned by x y z when the threats are overlapped and I hope Wiggly will patch up that" (try to run a good team instead). I implore people to learn from my poor PUBD record and not run this mon.

Omanyte - It's like a broke man's Seaking, you get to own double Fire + Bird/Scyther teams.

Kingler - Kingler being bad is a cold take now, I really don't have much to add to the conversation on this, you know it's bad, I know it's bad, no one brought it during PUBD because everyone knows it is bad.

Poliwag - If you think playing positionally is stupid you can justify bringing this mon.

Nidoqueen - Yea I think this mon is garbage. You obviously are running Golduck and Nidoking if you are running a 3rd slowmon who is wholly outclassed by Nidoking. Why would you ever want two Nidokings. The mon is mediocre. Like if you want a 3rd slowmon you get more upside from running a more specialized mon like Porygon/Seaking/Eggs/Dz/Sandslash/Graveler/Machamp. It runs into the same issue as Wigglytuff, it's just goo, it doesn't improve your matchups vs anything, it just makes your bad matchups less bad at the expense of blunting your positive matchups by a lot.

All the other lead slowmons - It's hard to justify bringing slowmons, but in the lead slot vs people you dont spam sleepers there exists a crowded ecosystem of like barely viable mons you should be aware of. They win some 1v1s and are like ok into ones they aren't.
 
Time for some more thoughts. This covers Week 3 to Week 5 since I only did semis and finals last post and I'm referencing some of my ideas here based also on that prev post and vice versa actually since some of what I learned and applied in those anyways are from these previous weeks' games. And just like in my previous post, I also have a TLDR at the end of this post.

:rb/venusaur:

Week 3 vs cake

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-821555

Cake by this time had a pattern in building, duck dash nidoking in all teams then the 3 slots are a sleeper (yes she also used gastly), then 2 of abra pory scyther.

But alas, she didn’t follow this vs me. I expected venu so I had magmar lead. But then what I’m not ready was the line. The early golduck line. This was when I first learned it. It led to duck and magmar mirror. When magmar was revealed, I knew this was outside of scout already.

Then the next thing I learned is not to revenge with pory despite the mon ahead is para’d since I’ll get revenged with venu with a dangerous sleep. I wasn’t know what to do so I just sleepsac nidoking and went back to pory. I didn’t even click recover and clicked twave and met nidoking.

So a 3rd lesson I got here is always click recover on porygon lmao. Nidoking crit pory on first eq. Another lesson, pory is really a crit magnet.

Cake did so many interesting things here. Bailed out of dash mirror to go nidoking expecting a bslam click, sac’ing nidoking vs abra for momentum getting scyther safely, even catching another twave with nidoking since my only wincon at that point was to parahax dash since nidoking is slower and scyther can miss hbeam. So cake really did the safest way to end the game. But yeah that just shows how venu could be deadly in this tier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-821557

Game 2, same thing happened. I led nidoking but sleep hit t1 so I went pory but since I am still trying to learn if there’s a situation where twave is a click and not recover, I did it here.

Now for the 4th lesson, I learned the deadly amnesia click in golduck mirror. Surf deals more than stoss. But I was rattled so I did weird clicks here.

SD Scyther in front of pory rattled me too. I had egg back here and I had no opportunity to get it in since there’s no pory nor abra unlike in the scout. Pory almost won me the game too but yeah of course it winning vs dash, nidoking, and magmar had ended. Recover failed, I got burned, and the final mon magmar crit fblast. Ggs I learned a lot here at least. I think this was the time that I actually know some things that I’m doing.

Oh and before I continue, I figured I'll put in here some of thoughts I cut out from my prev post. First is about the pory lead in the pubd finals.

:rb/porygon:

I decided to go pory lead. Based on scout, I should win lead 9/15 times. Abra could fall to hbeam, primeape will get punished if it doesn’t have submission (stoss midground, tbolt for golduck, rslide for fires and pidge, hbeam). Venusaur is annoying so I actually planned lines like dash then double into pidge/scythe/gastly since scout also shows not much Nidoking usage so less risk to run into the Venu-Nido dangerous line which could really just be reliably checked by like Porygon bar Nidoking critting though we all know Porygon is such a huge crit magnet. Pidge is actually better and probably the best until once people starting to use the likes of Venu-Grav.

Anyways, the actual game had pory vs golduck. Twave is obv so Nidoking in and tbf, it takes psychic just fine.

Week 4 vs AM

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-822738

Ape vs magmar. I lost so it led to me revenging with dash then turned into duck ditto but AM bailed out switching abra in so it led to abra ditto.

AM bailed out again after hitting para with pidge but para proc so it did not punish pidge. I had gastly. Free hypnosis despite taking dmg from wing atk. Sleeping pidge so free dash in but fblast miss into duck so duck still has 46% hp left so I had to gastly after the duck mirror but then it led to abra ditto again, everything falls down, dash ko-ing gastly after duck chip.

Final moment was sleeping pidge +2 with mine only 2 mons left. Dash mirror. AM won and my back nidoking got fblast crit so ape clears.

So basically this coin was a lot of coinflip. Duck, abra mirror. If I won dash ditto, and since it’s faster than ape, ape will get chip and hopefully enough for Nidoking to KO win. So yeah, winning the coinflip in mirrors is clutch.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-822742

I went duck lead this time but despite it, I lost duck mirror so I had to revenge with dash, my dash miss fblast to nidoking and rip, I revenge with abra but met egg. Dedge egg but since psychic chipped 21%, it still had to boom. I lost nidoking ditto. Then met seaking which just used nidoking as agility fodder. Good thing gastly hypnosis hits. But it’s now dash ape vs scyther gastly. Surf chipped gastly got lucky fblast missed so dash down.

Then in here, ape vs gastly. I should have clicked hypnosis and if it hits and ape doesn't wake t1, I could have won.

But I clicked psychic T.T so I lost.

:rb/exeggcute:

Week 5 vs wanted

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-823685

Venu mirror. I lost. Then here I met the Nidoking line. Good thing I pory to get that covered. Pory met abra. In here, I was still convinced pory wins vs abra. I click hbeam, pory trades for nidoking after I revenge with abra. So number ties with 4 mons each. Wanted revenge with magmar. I tried fishing sub here with para but did not work. It led to nidoking trading with duck and duck clears dash so I still manage to win despite losing t1. But it’s not that easy since nidoking crit blizz venu. My hax was at all game high but prob got balanced by the remaining games.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-823692

I think this is when I decided I dislike venusaur lmao. Sleep powder miss vs nidoking. Then ape vs pidge, rslide miss. So pidge won that. Then it led to me revenging with dash but wanted sac’d sleeping nidoking so I bailed out of that and went pory to kill sleeping nidoking. Met abra again but this time, para proc is real, hbeam missed twice. Led to the duck mirror but expecting stoss click, wanted sent magmar in to hbeam duck but I switched into dash which could have been nice but since it crit, everything fell off. Abra revenged duck but magmar got another hbeam off.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1pu-823695

Magmar mirror this time, I lost but magmar is para’d so I revenged with abra. But then, egg happened. Sleep into nidoking is really a dangerous line. Much more if it’s egg than venu because egg has double powder threat so even pory can’t cover that. I also lost to duck ditto coz of counter. I revenged with dash but fblast missed twice versus nidoking. Egg fell pory down, and despite my nidoking winning the mirror, it’s over since dash fblast crit and last mon is pidgeot.

:rb/graveler:

Another thing I already mentioned last time that I’ll add some bit more thoughts is about the seaking versus graveler interaction on why I think graveler isn’t really something I should use to switch seaking in. Let’s establish some things to make the analysis easier to digest ig. First is the idea that grav gets in early on once it see a bird. Anyways if it’s late, seaking sweep is more probable so yeah if you are using grav, prepare lines to force out pidgeot and scyther early. Doing that will be a separate topic so for now let’s continue about the graveler thing.

Most common entry of grav is versus the birds right so grav is already in the field so it can either click rslide, eq, sub, or boom already why not. (Graveler Explosion vs. Seaking: 314-369 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.8% chance to OHKO)

I know ppl clicks eq just like how maris played vs me and so many other ppl in the prev fearow meta. That’s actually the one of the worse case scenario for seaking so we can go with that.

Graveler Earthquake vs. Seaking: 137-162 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

When I prep for lines, I always consider the max dmg so in my calc, my seaking is already down at just 56% hp. I always think of the worse so like I’ll never click dedge even though it’s obv grav will switch out since in my mind, my opp can respect that I will click dedge because I know it’s obv that grav will switch out. So taking into account of surf, many mons can switch into that like the other waters. And I think I already mentioned in the previous post that fires will trade with fires if not waters just as waters is also just checked by waters so if grav trades with seaking, a comp with grav + double water/fire can beat comps like double water + bird if trade is not done in an optimal way. That’s why I also understand why some teams doesn’t use the flying mons despite them being fast since that could complicate stuff too.

Say grav clicks sub, it could still boom or eq then go to something else but it’s worse than outright eq since sub takes hp. So really the only thing bird teams need to be careful of is the eq line. And as I said, it’s prob better to just stay as bird though what sucks is that they can’t break grav sub in 1 turn.

Pidgeot Double-Edge vs. Graveler: 42-50 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
Pidgeot Hyper Beam vs. Graveler: 63-75 (20.1 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Scyther Slash vs. Graveler on a critical hit: 47-56 (15 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

So trading bird to grav, grav will still behind a sub. I panic in the series vs maris thats why I mess up but now I know that I should click sand atk before grav sub is up. RSlide is also not a 99% acc move and flying are immune to eq so sand atk pidgeot is really nice. But for scyther, you might just as well roll the dice and trade water to grav. So common lines of lead for lead, dash for dash, duck for duck, assuming double water/fire somewhere so trade those too, it will end up with bird +1 vs the possible fire/water that was sub’d by grav in the common trades + 1. I think it was vs AM where bird vs dash is already a tricky matchup since fblast burn though there’s a chance of fblast miss. Bird vs water is fine unless the water is blizz seaking in which I’ll turn y’all back on the pubd finals and semifinals scenarios I already discussed in the prev post. So if bird ain’t it, what’s the plus1 in bird + 1? I’ll leave it there since there’s an upcoming PU Open III and I’m excited on how the meta will shape up in that despite not many really take indiv tours seriously unlike in team tours where prep is really five dimensional.

:rb/gastly:

TLDR

Venu loses to abra and fires
Nidoking loses to abra and golduck
Gastly can dictate games vs scyther pidgeot venusaur to a favorable midgame when those are revealed early but same goes if gastly is revealed early.
Earlier teams that I brought are weak to abra. Porygon hyperbeam outright could have helped if twave para doesn't proc to give turn to abra to click sub.
Sleep lines with venusaur are still tricky to deal with because there's threat of bslam/sd/hbeam/switch to another mon
I also talked a bit more about the thoughts I cut out last time about Porygon and Seaking.
 
Back
Top