Gen 1 RBY UU Viability Ranking

Oldamar999

Tien Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Since there has been no discussion on this VR and I don't have a lot of experience with the meta, I'm just gonna ask a few questions about the VR placements.
why are Mr.Mime, Staryu, and Venomoth ranked? I do not really understand what Mr.mime does that Kadabra and Hypno cannot. Staryu just seems too weak and frail to really do anything, but it does have a decent speed tier and reliable recovery. Venomoth's poor bulk and bad typing don't really seem that good to me, but I assume it does double power?
 
Mr. Mime has Thunderbolt, which hits harder than Kadabra's or Hypno's Psychic on super effective hits. Other than that, it has absolutely nothing over the other Psychics.

Staryu has weak stats, yes, but it has Water-typing, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave and Recover, which is just enough to make it capable of being quite annoying to the Legendary Birds and Water-types lacking Thunderbolt or Thunder Wave themselves. All Staryu needs is the ability to avoid being 2HKO'd and it can paralyze them, sit around in front of them waiting for FPs, and then stinging them with Thunderbolt. Its stats are low enough though that hax can sometimes be an issue for it. It was at its most useful early on when the tier seemed to be all about the Birds and the waters that walled them, but Tentacruel emerging as the real meta monster shifted things away from that. Not really sure how Staryu measures up now, but it does have a niche it can fill, just depends on whether that niche is useful enough now to warrant a ranking.

Venomoth basically has the fastest 75% accuracy sleep, with 75% accuracy paralysis to follow it up with. That's all you use it for, Venomoth otherwise loses to basically everything except the Grass/Poisons.
 
We'll need to play the tier with those changes. Victreebel gone will not affect the tier much. Golem will be usable for sure. It's gonna be a mystery however, if it will be the premier Ground-type of the tier. I think Dugtrio with that Speed to outpace Tentacruel (most notably) and crit rate will remain a strong choice as well. Not sure how well both on the same team work, since you stack Water weaknesses...
Still with the inclusion of Golem stuff like Dragonite and Gyarados surely does not get worse, since switch-ins to Golem EQ are not easy to find. However, Golem being slow obviously hurs it and seems to make it managable. Not sure how problematic Explosion is gonna be, though. All in all I think Golem will be a good addition to the tier, but we'll see... Golem's presence it probably gonna hurt Kadabra and Hypno quite a bit, which can only be a good thing in my book.
Let's see how this version of the tier (with the "correct" OU tier list) plays out and if there are some Pokemon too strong. Then we can make this tier final as well, and probably move on to a potential NU, which would be great ;]

Edit: It fits quite well that next month's RoA rotational ladder is in fact RBY UU! I'm hoping to be building teams in the next time and playing them on there. Hopefully people reading this thread will do the same. It's quite an ideal timing to be honest!
 
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Mister Tim

Йоу собаки, я Наруто Узумаки
is a Community Contributor
Golem in UU that's what i have been waiting for, this must effect whole ranks for this tier and bring back some forgotten pokemons
 
VR UPDATES:
Golem: OU -> B Rank
Articuno: A Rank -> B Rank
Electabuzz: A Rank -> B Rank
Moltres:
B Rank -> C Rank
Dewgong: C Rank -> D Rank
Tangela: D Rank -> C Rank
Charizard: D Rank -> unranked
Exeggcute: D Rank -> unranked
Kingler: D Rank -> unranked
Mr. Mime: D Rank -> unranked
Rapidash: D Rank -> unranked
Staryu: D Rank -> unranked
 
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Agree with almost everything that got changed / is in place in the VR atm.
Almost, becasue I maintain Charizard should be ranked (D rank for now). Speed tying Tentacruel and safely 2HKOing with EQ after just some Wrap chip from your own Cruel (60% to 2HKO at full) is not nothing. We know how crits play with those fast Pokemon. SUre, you are equally likely to lose, but it's a 50/50, which is better than most ranked Pokemon (even in B rank) can hope. Also Slash hits even the safe switch ins like Vaporeon decently hard. It's not that bad of a hit and runner....
Other than that, I am not entirely sure anymore if Omastar deserves B rank (probably still does). But its usage was mostly to check Moltres and sponge Wrap better, plus resisting Normal in general, so you are a hardwall to Dodrio for example. Vaporeon is the better bulky Water though in general. But yea... probably Omastar deserves the same rank, even without the Moltres checking (since Moltres just does not fit on teams, most teams are better off using Articuno and fitting both is really hard, since they share the same checks...) On the same thought, Electabuzz might be more C material too with Golem in the tier, but honestly Golem's impact seems quite small, although Raichu should be the electric of choice. Outspeeding Tentacrual is still Buzz's plus. But you use Dugtrio and Kadabra for that purpose anyway...
Lastly, maybe Raticate could be B rank as well... but tbh, idk... You'd use Kanga any day over it, and even then there's Persian and Dodrio to compete with, who are just powerhouses compared... On paper though, Raticate should be a beast. Have to keep an eye out for it...
But yea... overall, looks good. After all, looks like B rank will be the tier. Could see forming the next lower tier with everything B and higher banned
 
I've been looking at the Smogon UU/2U statistics and I only really see games for December and near-none for January. So how can you already be certain of this tier to move onto RU/3U?
 
So, it's been a month since Lusch commented that we should look into RU. Is there any timetable of sorts on it to start up tests and tournies?
Or should we organize another UU tournie to verify results. Personally I'm looking forward to trying out all the lower tiers for the sake of completion and seeing when each type pokemon becomes viable within its own "OU".

Also, I'm not fully surprised to see Moltres going down to RU despite its stats. I remember on Perfect that Arcanine was first considered viable at NU.
 

Oldamar999

Tien Time
is a Pre-Contributor
I feel like telling people that the new tier is 100% not being called RU, but it will be called NU, like how literally every new old gens low tier right below UU has been called. it simply makes more sense for the new low tier to be called NU since thats how it has been done in GSC and ADV, I do not expect it to just suddenly become RU now. I don't really care one bit what Pokemon Perfect did.
 
I feel like telling people that the new tier is 100% not being called RU, but it will be called NU, like how literally every new old gens low tier right below UU has been called. it simply makes more sense for the new low tier to be called NU since thats how it has been done in GSC and ADV, I do not expect it to just suddenly become RU now. I don't really care one bit what Pokemon Perfect did.
What you care for doesn't matter, and what Pokemon Perfect did or didn't do has no relation to this tiering project since we're talking about it here on Smogon.
The point of the project is to see at what point every Pokemon becomes viable within its tier. What you call them is less relevant. RU, NU, 1337U. At the end we want to see what the "OU"/threats are for each of its own tiers. See how far down the rabbithole until Butterfree or Bedrill become S, A, or B in their own right.

To breath some new breath in RBY and give people more options that just having another game with Chansey and Snorlax if they want to play Gen 1, see if we can't discover some new movesets, potentials, and just have some fun with it like seen in any newer Gen games.
 

Oldamar999

Tien Time
is a Pre-Contributor
What you care for doesn't matter, and what Pokemon Perfect did or didn't do has no relation to this tiering project since we're talking about it here on Smogon.
The point of the project is to see at what point every Pokemon becomes viable within its tier. What you call them is less relevant. RU, NU, 1337U. At the end we want to see what the "OU"/threats are for each of its own tiers. See how far down the rabbithole until Butterfree or Bedrill become S, A, or B in their own right.

To breath some new breath in RBY and give people more options that just having another game with Chansey and Snorlax if they want to play Gen 1, see if we can't discover some new movesets, potentials, and just have some fun with it like seen in any newer Gen games.
Bro I was literally saying that the low tier will just be NU to prevent any confusion.
 
Bro I was literally saying that the low tier will just be NU to prevent any confusion.
Ah, sorry for being dramatic. I just meant that we're not stopping at NU (third tier) anyway. I mean I imagined Showdown won't implement lower than that, but I plan to see that this goes down to likely final tier 10, since there are about 15 viable pokemon per tier anyway.
 
Has there ever been any data on Kingler or Porygon?
I feel like in theory Kingler should also be C or D since that's where Sandslash and Pinsir are located.

Also, what makes Porygon an interesting partner in OU, but a non-entity here in UU?
 
Has there ever been any data on Kingler or Porygon?
I feel like in theory Kingler should also be C or D since that's where Sandslash and Pinsir are located.

Also, what makes Porygon an interesting partner in OU, but a non-entity here in UU?
Porygon's main niche in OU is to wall Snorlax, which it can do semi-reliably because it's faster, has Recover, can't be paralyzed by Body Slam, and is actually slightly bulkier than Chansey on the physical end. Snorlax not being present deprives Porygon of its main niche. That said, to my knowledge, Porygon hasn't been sufficiently tested in UU, so it may have some other uses no one's thought of yet.

Kingler should be ranked, I feel. Though I've personally never used it, it actually might be a better SDer than Pinsir or Sandslash, since it should have the best odds against Tentacruel.
 
Pinsir has access to Bind unlike Kingler (Sword-dancers) which if you want an attacker there are better options out there. Crab-hammer alone doesn't accomplish much, and setting-up swords dance is not easy with wrappers at every turn. Kingler was moved from D to Unranked 12/30/2019.
 
Porygon's main niche in OU is to wall Snorlax, which it can do semi-reliably because it's faster, has Recover, can't be paralyzed by Body Slam, and is actually slightly bulkier than Chansey on the physical end. Snorlax not being present deprives Porygon of its main niche. That said, to my knowledge, Porygon hasn't been sufficiently tested in UU, so it may have some other uses no one's thought of yet.

Kingler should be ranked, I feel. Though I've personally never used it, it actually might be a better SDer than Pinsir or Sandslash, since it should have the best odds against Tentacruel.

Really? So Porygon is to OU what Ditto is to Uber? Because I know Ditto has a small bit of viability to copy against a Mewtwo or Mew for certain combos.

I also know on PP forums at least, Porygon wasn't considered viable on its own until the 4th tier.

Pinsir has access to Bind unlike Kingler (Sword-dancers) which if you want an attacker there are better options out there. Crab-hammer alone doesn't accomplish much, and setting-up swords dance is not easy with wrappers at every turn. Kingler was moved from D to Unranked 12/30/2019.
So that's the part that doesn't make sense. Kingler going to unranked because it's not being used makes sense since there aren't enough UU battles going on for people to check and tier it.
But Kingler has nearly the same role in 1st tier, then it does here in 2nd tier. An alternative sweeper. So switching between Sandslash, Kingler, Pinsir (or even Kabutops) should all about the same.
 
So that's the part that doesn't make sense. Kingler going to unranked because it's not being used makes sense since there aren't enough UU battles going on for people to check and tier it.
But Kingler has nearly the same role in 1st tier, then it does here in 2nd tier. An alternative sweeper. So switching between Sandslash, Kingler, Pinsir (or even Kabutops) should all about the same.
Swords Dance is only partially reason they're ranked where they are.

Sandslash gets Electric immunity, Pinsir has access to Bind, Kabutops can be added somewhere to the VR but not much data, it is very similar to Omastar, Rock typing so it has high physical defense vs. things like Dodrio and tanking wrap damage.

Kingler does get Swords Dance, but aside from that has nothing making it unique enough to use over the others. This is the reason it's at the bottom of the barrel.

Beside the point, this tier is fast paced, there is no time to set-up. Even Dnite has trouble setting up Agility if your opponent is playing correctly, not to mention attempting to try & set up Swords Dance in order to try & make it viable. The other mons you listed aren't there particularly due to Swords Dance alone, they have other attributes as I've laid out.
 
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tratchy has been playing a lot of Poliwrath against me lately. I think it might be better than how it looks on paper. It's physically bulky enough to take a few physical hits, its movepool is somewhat diverse (Notable moves are: Hypnosis, Amnesia, Hydro Pump, Blizzard, Earthquake and Submission) and it outspeeds Hypno and Vaporeon (of course that's not too impressive). It's obviously got a lot of things stacked against it, but it might worth considering as another bulky water option.

#BanAgiliWrapNite
 
Sorry to double post, but I think this needs it's own post. I personally like lead VRs because I think it's interesting to see where people line up what and what they want to get out of the early game. UU's lead meta is definitely underdeveloped and under explored, and I personally would like to explore it through a VR. I'll start off with a post with some of my thoughts for the potential leads.

First let's establish that there are three types of leads: Anti, Para and Sleep. All three seem pretty well balanced and one doesn't really look better than another. Each one serves a different purpose and many mons serve more than one role. That being said, anti is the most common right now, with Tent being pretty much the default lead. With Para and Sleep sharing the rest of the scraps.

Second, let's look at what role(s) each viable lead mon is a part of (in no particular order)
Anti: Tent, Dugtrio, Persian, Kadabra*, Electabuzz*, and Raichu*
Para: Kadabra, Hypno, Electabuzz, Raichu, Venomoth
Sleep: Hypno, Haunter, Poiwrath, Venomoth
*Is considered an antilead against Tent only.
There are some other fringe options, but this list pretty much the only things worth considering.

Third, I'm going to rank the mons in the order I feel is best.

1. Tentacruel
Tentacruel has a good speed stat, powerful special attacks and Wrap. This combination stops many mons in their tracks and greatly limits what we can use in the lead spot.

2. Hypno
Hypno is the best sleep lead and doubles as a Para lead. Despite it's low speed stat, it's bulk allows it to not worry about being hit from antilleads and makes for an excellent sleep blocker when prar'd

3. Kadabra
Kadabra's great speed tier, T Wave and powerful Psychic makes it both good at spreading T Waves and scaring out Tentacruel. Seismic Toss also gives it the chance to threaten Hypno with some luck.

I think those three can be seen as the trinity of the lead meta and are the first ones everyone considers for a lead first.

4. Dugtrio
To be honest, I'm not really sure what the fourth best lead is, but I think Dugtrio is not a terrible choice for it. Dugtrio's high speed and crit rate combined with STAB EQ should make most other leads scared. Also being immune to T Wave makes para leads pretty much useless. It is scared of several things itself though, such as lead Hypno, Tentacruel surviving it's EQ and OHKOing back with Surf and Poliwrath who checks Dugtrio.
Lead Dugtrio also scouts out the opponents team by revealing their flying mon/Dug check, for basically nothing.

5. Poliwrath
I'm a little surprised that I am putting Poliwrath so high on this list and maybe Haunter deserves this spot more,, but I think it is similar enough to Hypno to earn this spot. Much like Hypno, poliwrath's bulk allows it to take hits from antileads and scare them with Hypnosis. Poliwrath also outspeeds Hypno, letting you win the first turn sleep war fairly consistently. Of course, Poliwrath gets easily scared out by Para leads, but a good team should account for this anyways.

6. Electabuzz
Again, maybe I'm being too harsh on Haunter here, but I feel like Electabuzz has some use as a para lead and isn't being explored enough. It can do a lot of damage to Tentacruel, Haunter, Poliwrath and scares out Persian who doesn't want to take the para. Electabuzz struggles against Hypno who just has no way to beat it without a lot of luck. I think I'm way overestimating and way overrating it, but I want to believe in Electabuzz.

7. Haunter
Haunter is interesting, because it is good against other sleep leads and pretty much nothing else. Sporting the fastest Sleep in the meta, it is still just 5 base speed shy from being actually scary. It makes this a hard choice to justify, but it can be good against slower sleepers and Persian.

8. Raichu
It might seem odd to put Electabuzz and Raichu so far apart, but that's because in the lead spot there is a world of difference. Raichu can't speed tie Kadabra or Electabuzz. So, 25% of the time, Raichu will not be able to para them back. Raichu is also much less threatening to Haunter than Buzz.

9. Persian
Persian makes for a fine anti lead by just doing a whole bunch of damage to everything and outspeeding everything except Dugtrio. Slash does a lot of damage to pretty much everything, but not quite enough to be higher on this list (Persian can never OHKO even Kadabra with Slash). Persian also hates being statused, meaning its best matchup is actually the other anti-leads, Tent and Dug. Persian also cannot do anything Haunter at all, making Persian a pretty subpar lead most of the time.

10. Venomoth
Sitting at 90 Base speed and having a terrible type combination, Venomoth may seem completely outclassed by Haunter. However, it does has a more accurate Sleep move and also can use Stun Spore to para opposing mons, giving it a slight different niche than Haunter or the other double statuser, Hypno. Of course it's pretty much useless even if it does put Hypno to sleep and then paras the next incoming mon. So Venomoth is pretty much unviable, but slightly notable.

So that's my thoughts on any potentially viable leads. There might be something I'm missing, or maybe your opinion is totally different. Either way, let's explore, discuss and rate the lead meta and get something better than what we have now.
 
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Great posts Sev! I will say I'd rank Hypno as the absolute best lead. The reason is it has an advantage over more leads than tentacruel does, it threatens pretty much all other leads with twave/hypnosis/psychic combo. With tentacruel it's biggest advantage is it can wrap other leads and set up the start you want, but it does allow your opponent to just swap into their own tentacruel to check it or even haunter/kedabra.
 

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